Original Alien Engineer

Not sure "bickering" is the correct noun; more like spirited debate (brought on by Snorkle's ostensibly empiracle, mater-of-fact-ly staed positions on things that are, at best, conjecture. And BigDave, you seem to all but mirror my "objections." Like Free Planet's assertion that Lindelof pretty much got to do whatever the hell he pleased (despite RS's and/or 20th Century Fox execs desired), it is difficult for me to hear 5% fact + 95% conjecture spoken as if it is 100% canon. 'Course, my wife says I'm stubborn -- but what does SHE know!? LOL Anyway... It would appear that both the black goo AND xenos have been around a long, LONG time -- which of course means that the Deacon is just "the latest" in a long line of xenos (gotta say though that the Deacon doesn't seem to acquire any traits from Bob; at least not like the Alien in Alien3 did regarding the dog host or the Predlien in Requiem). As for TWO MORE movies!!!!!!!!! Well, I hope Scott lives long enough!!!!! Then again, Cameron would prolly make a BETTER sequel.

@redwolf, as 'fun' as the Aliens-ride was, it BROKE the living lone xeno-transmutative sex-maniac stalker-vampyre canon, and that makes Cameron a very bad boy.

Well now... Other than using some poetic license of his own (e.g., a queen), I'm not so sure Cameron broke anything: * Terraformers sent out on "Easter egg hunt" by Carter Burke; they ostensibly find/investigate Juggernaut. * Terraformers gets face-hugged worse than a visit by my Aunt Millie. * Aliens-a-plenty are "born." * Queen (perhaps among said births) & "children" move to warmer climates in/around nuclear reactor. * Enter Ripley & Marines; battles ensue. * LV-426 is blown to smitherines. * Queen meets her maker (so to speak) in same fashion as xeno in Alien. So... exactly what canon did Jimbo break?

@ RedWolf.... Answers to your questions... A. There is no evidence that the black goo is billions of years old or that it "came first." [b]The film infers that we are the result of an Engineer performing the same act as shown at the beginning of the film, an act which started life, and life began and this planet many 100's of millions of years ago, ergo the stuff that Engineer drunk at the start of the film is at least that old. The urns were clearly developed and deployed thousands, not millions of years ago, as exemplified by the cave paintings and stone tablets found by Shaw and Holloway dating from 35,000 years to 1,400 years ago, and the Engineers on LV-223 falling victim to the urns 2,000 years ago before they had chance to deploy them on Earth.[/b] B. While there is some evidence that the glass vials inside the urns contains a "second" substance -- and that when mixed with its surrounding substance begins a morphing affect on its subject -- there is no true evidence that it creates xenomorphs/aliens as we know them from Alien, Aliens, etc. [b]Substance inside the vials is coagulated, lumpy and the substance coating the vials is slimy, mucus like - neither have the viscosity of oil, which the "Black Goo" has, and yet they are the only substances stored with the urns, ergo the oil substance is a result of the two mixing together (think the two-liquid bomb from Die Hard with a Vengeance). Evidence of Xenomorph - Hammerpedes acidic blood, Hammerpedes general appearance and behaviour mirroring that of a Facehugger and Chestburster, and Fifields behaviour and original appearance.[/b] C. If your theory above is correct, why do the Engineers "gather up" the eggs that are left on the host-less planet (i.e., they have more than enough urns) -- and what do the remaining xenos on that planet do, simply help the Engineers load them into the Jugg.? [b]Once the Xenomorphs have exhausted their supply of hosts they will inevitably die, once done so the Engineer would return to gather the eggs. Why? I don't know, but they obviously do so because we saw one of the ships on LV-426, with a cargo bay full of eggs.[/b] D. As stated earlier, facehuggers only pounce when a host is nearby; ergo, how does one "get loose"? [b]Facehuggers have been shown to sense and hunt down hosts in Aliens (Newt and Ripley), Alien 3 (Ripley), AVP and AVPR... Sensing there was only one host it is viable that the closest egg hatched and the escaping Facehugger made its way towards the Engineer.[/b] E. We've seen NO SIGN of any such "alarms." [b]There was a layer of blue laser-mist covering the eggs, which while probably also protecting the eggs could also have been used to alert the pilot of any breach from his deadly cargo.[/b] F. How do you know the SJ looks to his right (I mean, it coulda been his left or behind him, yes?)? Ok, ok... that's a little picaune on my part. [b]In Alien the hole in the platform that Kane notices and descends down into to the egg chamber underneath, is situated to the right and in front of the direction the dead Engineer was seated.[/b] G. Again, no sign/evidence of an autopilot feature on Jugg (though I wouldn't be shocked if it had two) nor of an automatic warning beacon (and if it had such a warning beacon feature, isn't there more than ONE warning an Engineer might wanna give? Y'know, perhaps a black goo warning or a I-think-I-mighta-tripped-the-self-destruct-program-feature warning?). [b]The derelict Engineer craft on LV-426 did not crash, it was forced to land. Had it crashed there would have been more damage to the ship. The ship can only be flown by a pilot that is seated in "the chair", as shown in Prometheus. Thus when the pilot "blacked out" from being hugged the ship would most likely have auto-piloted to the nearest safe area - LV-426. As for the automatic beacon, it was a beacon that repeated every 12 seconds, the USCSS Nostromo homed in on it in 2122.[/b] H. Deacon's offspring? Who has said anything about the Deacon having offspring? [b]After the end credits in Prometheus when the Deacon bursts from the Engineers torso it is seen holding a small organic, leathery object, not too dissimilar to a Xenomorph Egg.[/b] I. How could a holographic image of something that occurred possibly MILLIONS if not billions of years ago be triggered? [b]As explained in the second part of the answer to question A, the Urns, and thus the Xenomorphs are not millions of years old, but thousands of years old - and the two holographic recordings shown to us in Prometheus were also thousands of years old, therefore it is within the realm of suspended disbelief.[/b] Prometheus is a film that is intended to be studied and analyzed like a puzzle, if you actually pay attention to what was and wasn't shown and inferred, the rest is a simple case of logical deduction. And please refrain from issuing personal insults to both members and staff!

Wow. Where to start??? "Infers..." "I don't know..." "Could also have..." "Not too dissimilar..." "Within the realm..." Not exactly terms/phrases I would define as "clarifications," Snork'. Also, I agree that life ON EARTH began millions of years ago -- but then we don't KNOW if the planet in the opening scene IS Earth. Urns in cave paintings? I saw Pro twice but don't recall seeing them... Though the urns existed before the Engineer gets his head lopped off, they COULD have existed eons before, yes? Viscous... non-viscous... who's to say (though I CAN say my wife's iced tea can be viscous at times!)? I know that David8 retracts a FULLY INTACT dual glassine vial from the urn, ergo NO MIXTURE. And the film does not show him "mixing" the substances, either. "Evidence" goo = xeno? No. But there IS evidence it "morphs" creatures into monstrous, violent beings (then again, it did not have the same effect on the opening scene Engineer, hmmmmmmmmm...). Engineers "gathered" eggs? Ummm... not sure we know THAT. But we DO KNOW the Jugg. had them in its cargo bay. Perhaps they were "gathered" on LV-426 and the SJ never got off the ground? Indeed, Facehuggers can/do crawl around ostensibly "searching" for a host -- but only after being taken out of an egg or removed from a face (e.g., Burke letting loose the 2 FHs on Ripley & Newt). The lone exception in my mind is the one that eventually gets the Predator in AVP so I'll score one for you there; however, you have repeatedly said that those films are not canon so I'm not sure how/why you get to have your cake and eat it, too). Is that hole Kane goes down into the ONLY ingress/egress to the bridge of the Jugg.? Even if that pouch the Deacon appears to have IS an egg containing a FH, just whose face would it hug to produce offspring? Everyone still on LV-223 is dead. And lastly, xenos must be more than a few thousand years old, for two reasons: 1. Who builds a "temple" -- repleet with glowing green stone and murals -- to a creature that hasn't been around "forever"? I mean, humans praise the tiger, the lion -- even the dinosaur -- but the Purple Crab? I don't think so. 2. If, as you say, the black goo is part lumpy/part smooth -- and one of those parts is xeno DNA, then xenos have been around for millions, perhaps BILLIONS of years (which is consistent with the aforementioned temple, murals, etc.). So Snorky, you'll forgive me if I cannot accept your "hypothesis" (David8 joke intended) as "clarification," as you put it. For it has dots even Bozo the Clown cannot connect. Oh, and I'm not sure where I issued any "personal insults," unless one's skin is thinner than my wife's spaghetti sauce.

"Not sure "bickering" is the correct noun; more like spirited debate" Agree my point was that some seem to take it too serious and get too defensive with their ideas. At the end of the day every one of us could be wrong hopefully we get our answers by Prometheus 3. Oh and the way Prometheus is done is to leave it open ended to have ambiguity so we all add the clues together in a fashion that we do not and can not all come to the same conclusions. Like with the Deacon and LV 426, Ridley has left contradicting comments. One one hand he says the ship on LV 426 has been there a long time, and was carrying Eggs but one of the Face Huggers from one of those Eggs got to the Pilot (Ridley as far as i am aware has never said how this happened). This suggests that the Deacon does not give rise to the Xeno or the event of Alien, he also said the ship may had been on LV 426 200 years prior to the events of the Ghost Engineer scene thus 2200 years prior to the 2090s The Mural shows the Xeno and Face Hugger which means they was around prior to the events of Prometheus... or was they? Because the Mural looks more like the Deacon to me and thus maybe its a Prophecy of whats to come? Ridley also said this movie is where Mommy meets Daddy and i think he means Shaw and infected Holloway and how that leads to Shaws Baby and then Deacon and being connected to Alien.... Ridley said you wont get any connection to Alien until the end of the movie. And Lindelof said the movie is about the Progenitor So we really dont know, as Ridley has given us two possibilities maybe one is red herring? Hopefully we will get some answers... As far as which was first the Urns or Eggs we dont know, it has not been explained, only clues

@Red Wolf; I'm sorry your wife can't cook.

All in good fun/humor, Svanny. Actually, she's a WONDERFUL cook -- and makes THEE best sauce I've ever had... ;o) But picking up on what BigDave said above, I have a new rhetorical conundrum: "Which came first, the Urn or the Egg?" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!

@Red Wolf; Can I get the recipe??

@ Red Wolf.... Also, I agree that life ON EARTH began millions of years ago -- but then we don't KNOW if the planet in the opening scene IS Earth. [b]We don't need to know whether or not the scene at the start of the film is of Earth, the scene where Shaw says "Their DNA predates ours", ergo the stuff inside the cup from which the Engineer at the start of the film drank from is at least millions, if not billions of years old.[/b] Urns in cave paintings? I saw Pro twice but don't recall seeing them... [b]I never said there were urns in cave paintings[/b] Though the urns existed before the Engineer gets his head lopped off, they COULD have existed eons before, yes? [b]The Urns and their contents were created to be a deployed weapon as shown in Prometheus, had they been created eons ago we would have been wiped out and there would have been no point for the Engineers to visit us to point us to LV-223, instead they would have planned to wipe us out before 2000 years ago.[/b] Viscous... non-viscous... who's to say (though I CAN say my wife's iced tea can be viscous at times!)? I know that David8 retracts a FULLY INTACT dual glassine vial from the urn, ergo NO MIXTURE. And the film does not show him "mixing" the substances, either. [b]The content in the vials is the same as that taken by the Engineer at the beginning of the film, both and only that Engineer and Holloway experienced great pain while black veins crept through their body. Ergo same substance. The mixing of the substances happens when the urns are triggered, as in when David opened the door to the chamber, changing the chambers atmosphere.[/b] "Evidence" goo = xeno? No. But there IS evidence it "morphs" creatures into monstrous, violent beings (then again, it did not have the same effect on the opening scene Engineer, hmmmmmmmmm...). [b]As explained above the substance consumed by the Engineer at the start of the movie is the content within the vials. The substance that contaminated the worms and Fifield was a mixture of that substance and the slime covering the vials; Xenomorph DNA - creating the same effect as that of the Engineer at the start of the movie, imprinting Xenomorph DNA onto anything the resulting oil comes into contact with.[/b] Engineers "gathered" eggs? Ummm... not sure we know THAT. But we DO KNOW the Jugg. had them in its cargo bay. Perhaps they were "gathered" on LV-426 and the SJ never got off the ground? [b]Ridley Scott has stated, quite clearly that the ship on LV-426 was forced to land there when its pilot fell foul to its deadly cargo of Xenomorph Eggs.[/b] Indeed, Facehuggers can/do crawl around ostensibly "searching" for a host -- but only after being taken out of an egg or removed from a face (e.g., Burke letting loose the 2 FHs on Ripley & Newt). The lone exception in my mind is the one that eventually gets the Predator in AVP so I'll score one for you there; however, you have repeatedly said that those films are not canon so I'm not sure how/why you get to have your cake and eat it, too). [b]Err, as evidenced in my thread [url=http://www.prometheus-movie.com/community/forums/topic/9360]The Final Canon Debate[/url], I am one of those arguing that AVP be considered canon.[/b] Is that hole Kane goes down into the ONLY ingress/egress to the bridge of the Jugg.? [b]It was an acid burnt hole, facehuggers are known to spit acid to gain access to hosts, as evidenced by the acidic burns on Kanes helmet.[/b] Even if that pouch the Deacon appears to have IS an egg containing a FH, just whose face would it hug to produce offspring? Everyone still on LV-223 is dead. [b]How would the deacon know that? especially on a biological, genomic level?[/b] And lastly, xenos must be more than a few thousand years old, for two reasons: 1. Who builds a "temple" -- repleet with glowing green stone and murals -- to a creature that hasn't been around "forever"? I mean, humans praise the tiger, the lion -- even the dinosaur -- but the Purple Crab? I don't think so. [b]Christianity is only 2000 years old, yet a damn good percentage of the worlds population partake of this religion, or variations of it (Jehovahs, Mormons etc.)[/b] 2. If, as you say, the black goo is part lumpy/part smooth -- and one of those parts is xeno DNA, then xenos have been around for millions, perhaps BILLIONS of years (which is consistent with the aforementioned temple, murals, etc.). [b]I am stating that the black slimy mucus is Xenomorph DNA, there is no evidence to suggest they have been around for millions of years, in fact the fact that the Engineers visited us starting 35,000 years ago before changing their mind and intending to deploy the urns, which result in the Xenomorph, 2000 years ago suggests very heavily in favor that the creature has only existed for thousands of years.[/b] So Snorky, you'll forgive me if I cannot accept your "hypothesis" (David8 joke intended) as "clarification," as you put it. For it has dots even Bozo the Clown cannot connect. Oh, and I'm not sure where I issued any "personal insults," unless one's skin is thinner than my wife's spaghetti sauce. That right there is a personal insult, once you make a debate personal you have already lost respectability within the debate. I suggest you peruse [url=http://www.prometheus-movie.com/community/forums/topic/2594]The Forum Rules[/url] and refrain from any more needless insults, and debate the topic in hand.

The fact the Engineers' DNA "predates ours" does not equate to the goo predating us. It simply means that Engineers themselves predate us (you see, we DO need to know if that planet in the beginning is Earth or not). "The urns were clearly developed and deployed thousands, not millions of years ago, as exemplified by the cave paintings and stone tablets found by Shaw and Holloway..." Again; I don't recall tehre being any urns depicted in the cave paintings. I'm not sure how you reach the conclusion that if the urns existed, say 35,000 years ago, we'd already be extinguished? The Engineers may have had urns for a long, long time -- just never bombed us with them, no? If the urns are triggered with atmosphere change, then why wasn't the urn David brought INSIDE the SHIP triggered -- especially when he takes the glass vials out? While I am inclined to believe reported quotes from key players like RS, I have heard reports of conflicting statements; therefore I prefer to reply on what's on film. But for sake of argu -- er, DEBATE -- I'll assume from now on that the SJ landed on LV-426 as you/RS say. Still doesn't mean all your "clarifications" hold merit or are logically concluded. Regarding AvP, I actually read on IMDb today that AvP and Requiem are considered PREQUELS to Alien/Aliens/Alien3, etc. First time I had ever heard that, but if true, pretty much confirms that Aliens have been around for eons; so long in fact that Predators raise their young hunting them (NB: I'll try to read the "Canon Debate" thread when I get time). The Deacon doesn't need to "know" there are no hosts on LV-223; the fact is that with no one there to act as host, he cannot bear offspring. Right? Good point re Christianity (then again, humans are mindless sheep at times while the Engineers don't seem so). How does it logically conclude that xenos have only been in existence for thousands of years due to the fact that the Engineers visited us 35k years ago and were only going to destroy us 2000 yrs ago? (shaking my head) It is just as "logical" that they've had xeno DNA for MILLIONS of years and simply decided to destroy us with it when they did, no? Dude, you and I have veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery different ideas of what a personal insult is. However, lest you overreact and ban me from this site, I'll "try harder" not to offend.

Big Dave, re: your end-of-Prometheus crash landing, LV-426 happened THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO, and it had a 5m Oliphant Driver, not some 3m dwarf in Giger skin. No can do.

My end would had been a flash back.... the beginning of Prometheus never happened within the time line of Prometheus it was a unspecified amount of time go but a time that was certainly many thousands of years ago if not millions..... (but there is a major plot hole that could rule out millions or years or billions). My ending showing to some extent the crash landing on LV 426 which Ridley has already said what happened just we have not seen it shown in any movie. This scene would have shown it to some extent and kept some happy and it would have been a flash back, and thus not a event after Prometheus but a event prior... but then it would have had no date and so thus like so much of the movie would be left open to each persons individual interpretation. You see so much of this movie people are taking as there is solid proof and fact with certain things when really there is very little that had been given 100% fact. It all meant to be ambiguous. [b]"The content in the vials is the same as that taken by the Engineer at the beginning of the film, both and only that Engineer and Holloway experienced great pain while black veins crept through their body"[/b] Well again, i dont think we have 100% proof of this, there is clues that could push to that being the case. But we do not see what happens to Holloway and cant say he breaks down into DNA. And we never got to see what happened to Fifield all the way through. We only see Fifield hold his face in agony as the Black Goo melts his mask to his face. The only 100% thing we see as far as the Urns in Prometheus well the ones in that temple are. The substance inside when it comes into contact with a living Organism it mutates that organisms DNA and changes it into a hybrid organism that contains XENO DNA and traits, both physically and mentally (changes there behavior to that of a Xeno or Face Hugger). Fifield does not looks so Xeno, but thats because Ridley chose Toxic Avenger dude over the other concepts which all had more Xeno DNA look to them, so as to reduce the amount of Xeno DNA and save it for the Shaws Baby to Deacon Cycle. Holloway ingests a small amount and it does not apear to break his DNA down, but it may have done so at a slower pace, but what we do see is that it had infected his Sperm to take on Xeno DNA and this thus then lead to Shaws Egg being fertilized and the Embryo inside then taking on more of a Xeno DNA because a Embryo has less fully developed human DNA to rewrite. This to me shows that the Urns contain a substance that contains Xeno DNA and its contact with another life form mutates that lifeforms DNA to take on Xeno DNA traits. This brings me to the Sacrificial Engineer, if the substance he had taken was the same then how come he did not mutate into a Xeno, or indeed how come no Xeno DNA seeded the life on that planet.... the life on that planet Evolved into organisms that contained similar DNA to the Engineer including Mankind. Thats why i therefore believe the substance he had taken breaks down his DNA and this broken down DNA by effect of the substance somehow can then interact with other lifeforms to then allow them to take on Engineer DNA. Was it the beginning of all life..... we dont know and we dont know how long ago either because it never said like 600M years BC or what ever. If you look you can see trees and this is more so in the full deleted scene, now plant life required CO2 which is produced as a bi product from many kinds of living organisms, in Mammals etc it is a bi product of our respiratory system. Maybe this could point to that the Engineer seeded his DNA so that it would then mutate some life on Earth to then Evolve and take on Engineer DNA? I do think the Out Post was created on LV 223 a long time after the events of the Sacrificial Engineer, i also think it was created some time prior to 2000 years ago. As far as the Xeno goes, i think and its just my theory that the Xeno predates the Black Goo in the Urns but they are predated by the substance the Sacrificial Engineer had taken. I think the Mural shows that they sacrificed the Xeno to create the Bio Weapon in the Urns. Hence its Sacrificial pose like that of Christ on the Cross.

As far as the Pilot.... Yes it appears that the Pilot in Alien was 4-5M 12-15ft, The Engineers in Prometheus the concept was for them to be about 9ft tall race. Ridley has not explained the difference in size, but hinted he grew out of his chair, which makes little sense to me. The colour also looks different to the grey colour of the Engineers suits. But i guess as in real life somethings change colour when they die.... Ridley did however say that the orginal Alien Pilot was a Space Suit and that Prometheus was to give us answers of who he was and where did he come from etc. So until Prometheus 2 or 3 shows that the Alien Space Jockey was not a Engineer or Elder in a Suit then i guess i have to go with the idea behind Prometheus. Only one person has that answer and thats Ridley, and until someone asks him and he gives a clear answer then there is no 100% way to say that it was some Elephantine Giant Race, more clues not point to Space Suit but again until Ridley clears up the Space Jockey in Alien we would never 100% know for sure.

@ Red Wolf... The fact the Engineers' DNA "predates ours" does not equate to the goo predating us. It simply means that Engineers themselves predate us (you see, we DO need to know if that planet in the beginning is Earth or not). [b]The scene at the start of the film infers that this is how the Engineers seed life, ergo it is inferring that they did they same thing to Earth at an undisclosed point of time in our planets past. And as a result of evolution selecting which of the Engineers genes become dominant in a given species, gave rise to us. Thus the goo predates us.[/b] "The urns were clearly developed and deployed thousands, not millions of years ago, as exemplified by the cave paintings and stone tablets found by Shaw and Holloway..." Again; I don't recall tehre being any urns depicted in the cave paintings. I'm not sure how you reach the conclusion that if the urns existed, say 35,000 years ago, we'd already be extinguished? The Engineers may have had urns for a long, long time -- just never bombed us with them, no? [b]Had the urns been developed at or before the time of the first visit, depicted in the 35,000 year old cave painting from the Isle of Skye, why would the Engineers have visited us, guiding us to LV-223 knowing they intended to deploy the urns on us and thus destroy us. The urns and their contents were developed to eradicate us, once that decision is made what would be the point of inviting us to LV-223.[/b] If the urns are triggered with atmosphere change, then why wasn't the urn David brought INSIDE the SHIP triggered -- especially when he takes the glass vials out? [b]Firstly because David sprayed it with presumably Liquid Nitrogen, freezing it before placing it into a freezer. And secondly once David had removed the vials from the Urn it could no longer trigger as he had essentially disarmed it by removing one the two ingredients (stored within the vials) necessary to initiate the reaction.[/b] While I am inclined to believe reported quotes from key players like RS, I have heard reports of conflicting statements; therefore I prefer to reply on what's on film. But for sake of argu -- er, DEBATE -- I'll assume from now on that the SJ landed on LV-426 as you/RS say. Still doesn't mean all your "clarifications" hold merit or are logically concluded. [b]Regardless of mine or Ridley Scotts statement, what has been stated is what is considered to be the nature of events by most Alien fans, and those involved in the making of Alien.[/b] Regarding AvP, I actually read on IMDb today that AvP and Requiem are considered PREQUELS to Alien/Aliens/Alien3, etc. First time I had ever heard that, but if true, pretty much confirms that Aliens have been around for eons; so long in fact that Predators raise their young hunting them (NB: I'll try to read the "Canon Debate" thread when I get time). [b]Eons? I don't think so. It clearly says in AVP that the Predators found Earth and taught the Ancient Antarctica people the ways of technology and civilisation 10,000 years ago.[/b] The Deacon doesn't need to "know" there are no hosts on LV-223; the fact is that with no one there to act as host, he cannot bear offspring. Right? [b]What is the point of The Queen laying thousands of eggs underneath LV-426's Atmosphere Processor, when there was only a couple of hundred colonists? The Deacon is intended to be the first of its brood, not the only, thus it must have the means to propagate, hence the egg. It doesn't matter that no-one is around, its called nature.[/b] Good point re Christianity (then again, humans are mindless sheep at times while the Engineers don't seem so). [b]Says who, many on these forums have inferred the belief that the Engineer we see at the end of the movie is a mindless, dumbass soldier sub-caste of the Engineers society. And who's to say they're wrong, he didn't exactly act uber-intelligent.[/b] How does it logically conclude that xenos have only been in existence for thousands of years due to the fact that the Engineers visited us 35k years ago and were only going to destroy us 2000 yrs ago? (shaking my head) It is just as "logical" that they've had xeno DNA for MILLIONS of years and simply decided to destroy us with it when they did, no? [b]If so what did they use the Xenomorph for, for all that time. Walks in the park?[/b] Dude, you and I have veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery different ideas of what a personal insult is. However, lest you overreact and ban me from this site, I'll "try harder" not to offend. [b]I suggest to re-read your posts directed towards me or in response to mine, your insults have been clear. I am not known for over-reacting in my position of staff, and have shown leniency with your insults, but a persons leniency can only go so far.[/b]

"Infers"? I agree it INFERS what you say. But "infers" -- to my mind -- does not reach or constitute the smug "clarification" category you stated. ============================ It need not necessarily mean the E's intended to destroy us simply because the urns existed; nor is there ANY evidence that they created the urns to be used on us. For example, the USA has countless nuclear weapons, yet I don't think we intend to wipe out, say, Switzerland -- unless, of course, the Swiss DO something that makes us want to -- which it SEEMS occurred in re the E's and humans. Further, LV-223 may have been a different planet (meaning NOT a weapons cache) back when they "invited" humans to visit them (NB: no one has established that they ever invited us to LV-223; those drawings may have been a map to where they're FROM; Shaw says "I THINK it's an invitation" -- and we both know she "chooses" to believe what she wants to believe). ============================= Though I've admitted the SJ/Jugg tale (that he crash-landed due to emergency) may be right, the rest of your "clarifications" are pure conjecture. ============================= 10k years or eons; po-tA-to/po-ta-to. See definition #1 at http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/eon?s=t ============================= How do you know the Deacon is intended to be "the first of its brood"? Did I miss that in the pre-printed program? And again, how does it have offspring with no hosts? Are you saying it has a baby asexually; that a baby eventually emerges from the so-called egg it's carrying? If so -- WITHOUT ANY HOSTS -- they are both doomed to die (according to you, in a few days, like the orginal alien in Alien). =============================== I was referring to the Engineer race as a whole. Of course we'll have to wait-n-see if there are any "good ones" left when David/Shaw reach their destination... =============================== And who says that E's "used" the xenos for anything for years and years? Do human "use" snakes for anything? No. We may use SOME from time to time for food, shoes, purses and anti-venom. But by-n-large we simply exist with them. No different for the E's and the xenos: the E's use them, their DNA, whatever WHEN THEY NEED TO; otherwise, the simply co-exist. ============================== The bottom line is, YOU initially started a good portion of this thread with an "Allow me to clarify some things for you, fellas" comment and I simply pointed out to you that while a small portion of what you say may be fact, the vast majority of it was PURE SPECULATION on your part. And that's still the case, brotha.

I agree with you @Engineer on every word you said. Some people on this site are either very ignorant or not very bright. The original Space Jockey had been dead for at least over a hundred thousand years when Dallas, Lambert and Kane found him sitting in his chair mumified. Mr. Scott has said it himself that Prometheous is not a prequel. Why do people still come on this site either complaining about Prometheous not leading up to Alien, or Prometheous not having Xenos in it. The film has nothing to do with the Xenos. The movie is about humans searching for there creators. By the way I do agree that the original Space Jockey if not, should be an elephantine type alien. It would be a chilling thought, and a macbre twist to the franchise.

Why cant we all just get along?

@ Red wolf... There is no evidence that the Engineers intended to use the urns on us, hmmm. I seem to recall a Juggernaut piloted by an Engineer heading for Earth towards the end of Prometheus, in fact that was pretty clear. had they had the urns sooner there is no reason they would have not used them sooner. Geologically, an Eon is much greater than 10,000 years in length. How do I know the deacon is the first of its brood, was it born from a traditional Facehugger, NO. Did it come into being from the existence of a Queen, NO. Therefore, as many have speculated and presumed the Deacon is the first of its brood, because it came into existence with no Deacon before it. And to propagate it needs to reproduce, so unless its Queen, then one would presume the leathery object it is carrying is an egg. for the Xenomorphs to just exist they require hosts, without said hosts they cannot just exist. Their very form of propagation suggests, nay dictates, that they were not only created by the Engineers but used as a weapon/tool to eradicate indigenous populations. Xenomorphs cannot just exist in waiting, they have to be used or die out. The bottom line is I added to this thread with some logical deductions to aid those trying to unravel the puzzle that is Prometheus. What you have done is latched onto my posts and attempted to argue every point I have made rather than read, listen to and apply the deductions I have made to yours and everybody else's theories and speculations. And in doing so have thrown numerous insults and assumed me to a big-headed know it all. Yes I stated that I had clarifications for those partaking in this thread, and should they check my posts, and read my threads, especially regards the Black Liquid, they would realize I am not just throwing up random what ifs, but actual decoding the puzzles of this movie.

Thats right @Snorkelbottom, tell them all what you think.

@Snorkelbottom I think thats what he trying to do, we are all trying to debate and some may conclude different things to others, i think Ridley and Lindelof did this on purpose they gave no explanation because they wants ambiguity so we can all have and come to different conclusions. This movie is about life, creation etc and just as in real life and creation there are many different ideas, from Religion to Science and Evolution to Aliens creating us and many people around the world will debate which one is true and which is not, when really only a few 100% FACTs of life are proven. The rest well like ambiguity in Prometheus is up for debate. On the subject of the Urns.... Well we do not know because it is not said so that the Urns was soley for us on us, however it would appear through the many clues that the purpose of L 223 well the temple was to produce those Urns. Or at the very least use it to store or even create what goes inside them. As you said the last Engineer did not set a course so much for Earth, because that was the destination the Engineers had set prior to the awakening of the last Engineer and so at some point in the past about 2000 years ago the Engineers had decided to send Ships or a Ship to Earth, which David had suggested if they got to Earth then we would be wiped out, Shaw also said this to Janek. Ridley Scott also said the same that the Engineers wanted to destroy us 2000 years ago for something we did 2000 years ago, or indeed around that time. Ridley had said the Xeno was a Bio Weapon, he also said the Derelict on LV 426 was carrying Xeno Eggs not Urns and it was heading to a unspecified location prior to one of the Cargo getting lose and resulting in the Derelict having to land instead on LV 426. So again i would assume that the LV 223 outpost was a research facility in which they was trying other ways of re weaponizing the Xeno Organism into a different delivery system and that being the Urns. @Rubirosa Yes the crew of the Nostromo did say the Pilot had been there a long long time, but we never had no dates and we have to assume they had no way of knowing for sure. Ridley had hinted that the Derelict had been there 200 years prior to the birth of Christ thus 200 BC. And thus 200 years prior to the events that saw the Engineers on LV223 become victims to their own Bio Weapon or Experiments based upon that Bio Weapon. Which again makes me believe that after the events of LV 426 they went back to the drawing board to try and figure out a way to make the Bio Weapon safer to store and contain, which is the purpose of that outpost on LV 223.

Snorky, Snorky, Snorky... You're living proof that Ben Franklin was right when he said "Common Sense is often neither." "LOGICAL DEDUCTIONS"? Oh they're deductions alright -- but Sherlock Holmes, Charile Chan and Columbo are turning in their graves! Let's examine your assertions of fact/truth/logic: Any proof that some sort of alarm exists on the Jugg that warns SJs of nefarious facehuggers who have "gotten loose"? No. Any proof that a facehugger got loose on the Jugg, acidicly burned a hole into its bridge a man in a sizable space suit can easily climb through, jumped the SJ while he's piloting -- causing him to lose consciousness just before the auto-pilot kicks on and safely lands them all on LV-426 -- only to ostensibly never regain consciousness and stays strapped in the chair when a xeno pops out of his chest? No. Any proof that this non-proven alarm doesn't work (!) or that an ostensibly still-unconscious SJ can somehow set a warning beacon? No. Or that -- with a facehugger covering its eyes and ramming an ortho-thingy down its throat the likes Linda Lovelace has never seen -- the SJ calmly set the autopilot and beacon? No. Any proof that the Engineers CREATED the urns for the SOLE PURPOSE of destroying mankind? No. Any proof that the urns hadn't existed far longer than the 2000 years covered by the hollograph on LV-223? No. Hell, since there's no prrof otherwise, the URNS, huge head, green stone and murals might have been there for who knows how long! Any proof that I was referring only to the geological meaning of "eon"? No. Any proof that words like "speculated," "presumed," and "infers" are all-encompassing, definitive-action verbs? No. Any proof that xenos live only a short period of time? No. In fact, there IS proof their eggs live for -- wait for it --------------- eons! Any proof that xenos must be used or "die out" -- like a AAA battery? No. Any proof that there is "good" and "bad" goo; that the initial Engineer is -- or isn't -- ingesting one, the other or both at the beginning of Pro'? No. Any proof that the Deacon has an "egg" attached to it that will somehow/someday spawn offspring? No. In fact, it could simply be a placental sack; the Deacon certainly doesn't pay any attention to it while on its side or when vertical (MY BABY! MY BABY!!). Big-headed know-it-all? YOU used that term, not I. All I've tried to do is make clear that what you were peddling as fact, canon or "logical" conclusion was indeed nothing more than speculative conjecture. Sorta like a cure-all elixur salesman -- like the guy in The Outlaw Josey Wales. Maybe see you on another thread... Stay frosty.

Not tryin' to upset anyone, Dave-o-Grando. I presumed this was a site for adults with thicker skin than a crepe... No real nasty or insulting language was used (I think Snorky knows I called him out a bit -- and it hurts). It's All Good as far as I'm concerned... Thanks for the list of facts; can't argue with a one of 'em.

@Red Wolf Not sure how Snorky is gonna take those comments... I enjoy your debated but i do think you guys are getting your wires crossed over such a little thing..... Yes i agree with you for a lot of stuff in Alien or Prometheus there are no 100% Proof, you cant prove or disprove a lot of stuff so its down to how each person interprets stuff, i think your problem is you are ignored that snorky may had come across that some of his stuff is speculative rather than factual. With Alien there are so many unanswered questions..... Ridley has answered them but in each statement things change slightly and again just because Ridley says one thing does that mean to many that its fact? He may say that the Derelict on LV 426 crashed landed there thousands of years ago because a Eggs Face Hugger got to the Pilot. But we have not seen such explanation shown in Prometheus or Alien, so do we take Ridleys word as fact...? Or do we only go by what is or is not shown in the movies. Like some still think the Space Jockey is not a Engineer because we never see the actual ship crash in Alien and in Alien it still looks more skeletal to some. As far as facts well there really is not many.... Here are some.... Prometheus is set in 2093-2094...... The Engineers on LV 223 who was running way from something in the Ghost Engineer Scene had been dead for about 2000 years in the events of Prometheus Timeline of December 2093. The Engineers broken down genetic material somehow goes on to develop or mutate life on a world, its not said it was Earth but then we do share Engineer DNA the Stuff in the urns mutates what ever life form it comes into contact with so that it becomes a hybrid that carries Xeno DNA and Traits, Could go on, but need the Toilet lol.

@ Red Wolf... [img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_wAxDMfEGhoY/TQrlbN4gYXI/AAAAAAAAAXg/kmwztAAni44/s400/Not%2BSure%2Bif%2Bserious.jpg[/img]

Red Wolf NEVER lies or is disingenuous, Snorky (well... sometimes I feign disingenuousness -- just to be funny). Bring on the next debate! AND HOW DO YOU INSERT PICTURES IN HERE!?!?!?!?

;) Thankfully we got that sorted.... group hug anyone.... or should i get my coat ;)

What's your rush -- here's your hat. LOL It's All Good, Davey.