What If We Are Mistaken About the First Scenes...

nice thoughts, I've also noted (on numerous occassions, to the annoyance of several (sorry)) that the new SpaceJockey chair looks very different in scale and material from the original SpaceJockey chair ... and I don't mean that's because the new one ain't FOSSILISED. The thing that strikes me is, "The old ALIEN stuff looks like it was grown around the pilot," this is why I 'believe' the Oliphant/Ganesha-like original gigantic Space Jockey was born in his seat, or fused with it at a later stage as it grew around him, maybe as some sort of MATING RITUAL - driver meets spacetime bug-eye in head-on collision. The new one looks like it was VACCUUM FORMED in a far-away-world FACTORY; it looks, acts, feels like back-engineering, rather than the organic development of the original.

@Voidhawk: [i]"the Juggernaut hull does look biological, but it is metallic if seen up close, and the biological appearance is more aesthetics than true biological material"[/i] I think most people would agree that a lot of the Engineers' technology looks biomechanical. But up close, what is it that you're expecting to see, exactly? You and I really have no idea. It could be weird stuff that's a cross between living and dead. As to what it would look like close up, you can't really say. It appears that the Engineers are masters of technology. The way that their stuff is going to be like magic to us.

Voidhawk " be punished and the punishment would be carried by himself, otherwise others might suffer (family, friends, peers, whoever…) and so even been afraid/angry/sad he would carry his punishement." Wasn t there a Roman or Greek statesman that drank poison for something he was found guilty of ? He could have run away if he wanted to but stayed loyal to his own beliefs and returned the next day to drink the poison. Yes it might be he was sacrificing himself to ensure the future of his family / friends / group / belief system as to improve / further their status with the elders ? "Actually it resembles greatly the xeno we saw in Alien Ressurection…is that on purpose?" Yes that's something that has been with me since I saw the elongated skuil on the mountain . Well spotted !! Whether I like or Not this may be proof that ridley is using A2 to a4 as background info for xenomorph character ability / ability / lifecycle !!!! The complexity this creates is unnerving (o say the least . Then we might have xenomorph eggs that carry all the memories of the humanoids on planet they were used on ? So eventually an engineer could be sacrificed and facehugged and the resulting creature would be used to carry all the memories and improved DNA back to the elder home world or maybe just the eggs itself ? The eggs being allowed to connest to their bio mainfraime computer ? Thereby inheriting all the knowledge and genome improvements that xenomorph attained and the elders continue to update their DNA genome becoming ever more powerfull ? Maybe the elders are testing different parts of their genome an different planets and engineers are created with different strengths to be tested on different planets and try to improve the elder pgenome. Their is still a basic engineer genome but if the engineers endowed with all of their genome wouldn't they become like the elders themselves ? Maybe that's what the war is about !!! Engineers obtained the complete elder genome for themselves and tested it on humanity (thereby evolution running rampant and they found themselves ubable to control the humans and was nowhere near ready for the consequences.......so they they decided time to GEt what we can out of them . Too many ifs and maybe ...too vageu and wild I know ....which why I am hoping we are not going the a2 - a4 route !!!!

nice toughts. It could be that yep. That could explain why someone needs to be sacrified to spread the seed. It doesnt make many sense because you could seed a planet with a copy of your DNA and put it into water.

[quote]"Wasn t there a Roman or Greek statesman that drank poison for something he was found guilty of ? He could have run away if he wanted to but stayed loyal to his own beliefs and returned the next day to drink the poison."[/quote] His name was Socrates and he was a Greek philosopher.

nice insights, thanks for sharing. very interesting points on the "children of the great legendary martyr idea. Going to for sure keep that in mind the next time I see it

Not sure if i want to believe he is some martyr, not a big fan of that idea. So many ideas out there and no clear direction or knowledge/hint as to what the motive of that engineer or possibly the ones that left him their were. You talk about the emotions on his face. I think its pretty clear anyone would be giving those same faces/emotions if they were going through the same process experiencing that same level of pain. He might have thought he was prepared for what he was about to do but i bet it still hurt like a mofo.

The openig scene has a certain mystery to it and is open to interpretation. I like this idea. Ridley Scott has always added scenes to his movies which make the audience scratch their heads and ask: Now what was that about? Blade Runner is a classic example of this...

@oduodu: Socrates.

I really like the idea of the opening scene actually being that the sacrificial Engineer is forced/sentenced to do so. It could be possible he was made to die for beginning the revolt amongst the Engineers to rise up against their Elders/Creators?

Socrates? this is sooooooo aptly Lindelof: [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socrates#Philosophical_beliefs]The historical Socrates seems to have been notorious for asking questions but not answering...[/url]

I remember reading some critic’s write-up that interviewed RS, and the first scene was to be based upon a selected person that will sacrifice themselfs for the greater good of the people. The person that commits this sacrifice is treated like a prince for one year prior of the sacrificial date, or something like that. In fact the entire interview had allot of Greek religious undertones throughout it, just can’t remember who did that interview w/Scott......

This is pretty much my view. Great ideas, very well thought out and interesting concepts. I do really feel he's being punished, but for what? Did some engineers do something with the fire that the Elders don't like? He's being punished and we're created as an offshoot of them while they reproduce themselves and start anew. Infusing their genetics with all the emerging life on earth and mixing them with everything to speed everything along during the Cambrian. Greek mythology is full of rounds of humans being destroyed and then recreated by Prometheus. Prometheus is said to have created a number of the rounds of humanity. Poseidon, king of Atlantis, created the first: his Atlantean humans. They had a paradise before they devolved, played god and messed with genetics, causing the sinking of Atlantis. They were originally described as humans, very advanced humans who created mermaids. And the mermaids seem to be the only females, but for female engineers some mermaid traits may show up like more scales and stuff. Gills etc.. But they're also like the original Amazonians. All the rounds before us were destroyed and rebuilt under Zeus's orders. I can't remember exactly, but I think we're supposed to be the fourth or fifth round according to the myths. So some of the first humans created were destroyed for acts of rebellion, fighting in the Titanomachy alongside the Titans and monsters. And with the Atlanteans it's a mystery. They either sank themselves, or were punished from above. They come first, they're almost alien to the Greeks because it was a part of their myths but considered possibly a real place that existed a long time ago on an island kingdom. The Minoan culture especially tries to show with its myths and artwork that Atlanteans were considered real, to them. And they may have been trying to claim that they were related to them. Try to portray themselves as the Atlanteans in the ancient past. A culture that if it existed might have left traces in many human kingdoms when they had rule of the Earth in secret and the survivors of the sinking of atlantis left the Earth to challenge the Titans. The prince becomes King of this colony they attempted to start and control on earth, after a rebirth of the prince. This ties into David's crowning. This king will eventually represent lucifer a little bit like David does, as well as Poseidon king of Atlantis. A mythical Paradise that sunk back into the ocean. To the greeks the Atlanteans were a tall pale culture of men, who were extremely advanced, created hybrids, and played with weird serpent monsters and fish/aquatic genetics. Hybridizing some of their their pets, and creating the mermaids. The creation of monsters and mermaids by the Atlantean king Poseidon is a serious offense to someone. In one version of the tale this results in the disintegration of the island and culture to be lost for all time. Sinking into the ocean it emerged from. The first round of humanity. This guys sacrifice would go on to create the Atlanteans and a paradise kingdom on earth for a while. Until the elders return and see what the Engineers are up to in their kingdom. The elders leave them stuck on this rock. First they end up stuck on the island as the reproduce much faster than we show up as a result. They were stuck on that island, and chained to this rock called Earth for a long time. Being destroyed again every time they angered the gods. then recreated. We come about and the Elders are not interfering anymore... Some of the Engineers escaped the destruction or catastrophe that destroyed their ancient kingdom on this rock. This also makes them a lot like the fallen angels.

I think the Engineers are immortal. That's why the Engineer sacrificed himself, because it was an Ultimate Sacrifice he made for the new Beginning.

I think it's totally about rebirth because there is so much being done where the creation is made in the image of those above. Weyland calls David "perfect" but doesn't know what's about to happen while speaking with the Engineer. Weyland also created David in his image. Not his physical image really. His idea of perfect, which is himself. So David doesn't like the fact that he is a lot like the father he hates (we've become like the Engineers, Engineers stole from Zeus and Prometheus, Zeus stole from the remaining titans and subjugated Prometheus. David quotes the same movie as his father and acts egotistical. The Atlanteans/Engineers became a war obsessed culture when they left Earth to steal the fire that Zeus and Prometheus had. They hate their fathers/creators too. "doesn't everyone" is David's perspective because he knows a little about what went on with these factions. Because Prometheus gives the fire to the humans and Poseidon's engineers are nearly wiped off the Earth. They led all of the people in secret from the stars. And led us into their war to use us in some way as their younger brothers/accidental inherited creation and duties. The fathers/elders left earth. And the Engineers are now becoming like the Elders, and a little like the true gods/Prometheus. By wearing their suits and emulating them: portraying themselves as gods. And parenting us too much in the wrong ways, because our elders are gone and they wish to lead us to the stars to assist them in their war. Leading to the light only to deceive. They also could want to destroy some of us to recreate us now for the war, as David implies. But that could be misleading. Zeus and the Titans didn't like this. The engineers were like the snake in the garden of Eden. They try to share some of their knowledge/power with us. And the Gods destroy the garden. Drives the serpents out and the survivors into the stars. And lets humanity live in the destroyed garden. With the traces and myths about this ancient golden age recorded by various cultures. And stories about island kingdoms at war with sky gods.. particularly in the Indian Vedas. http://screenrant.com/prometheus-cast-crew-themes-interviews-sandy-163243/all/1/ “It’s about the beginning of life and the eternal ‘what if’.’ Has this ball we’ve been sitting on right now been around for three billion years or one billion? And if we haven’t been pre-visited (by alien civilisations), then what was this planet doing for all that time before life came along? It’s only our arrogance that says, ‘No, it’s impossible, we’re the first ones.’ Are we the first hominids? I really, really, really doubt it. In recent memory or legend we keep talking about wonderful, weird things such as Atlantis – what is that? Where does that come from? Is that real, was it real, is it a memory, did it exist? And if that did exist, did it exist three quarters of a billion years ago? There’d be nothing left now. How was that created and who was it?” -Ridley's hint about Atlanteans and the time-frame.

Yes Ridley did drop some hints to maybe Mankind not being the First..... A few interviews i cant remember where and who was interviewed some was Ridley and other i think may had been Spaits or Lindeloff etc. Some of these comments was that this process they was doing was how they seed life on Worlds... Another was that he sacrificed himself to create and start life on Earth. The Actor who played the Sacrificial Engineer had said that he had to drink some substance that then broke his body down so that it could then start Evolution on Earth. The Artwork and Story boarding describes the scene as Sacrifice and also Beginning and latter shows basic life forms and then also the first land creature which was Amphibious Creature like the Tetrapods. Now if we are lead to believe that the Sacrificial Scene had taken place at the time when Complex Life started to form and that was as a result of the Engineers broken down DNA via the Substance in the Bowl that then broke him down to then fuse with and mutated basic Organisms like Bacteria. Then this is a very very long time ago, Millions and Millions of years before Man First Appeared. Ridley did say this is how they seed worlds... and he also did say that the Engineers had visited us and given us upgrades over time. So here is a theory.... Was the Sacrificial Engineer Sacrificed to simply seed life and start Evolution on Worlds... the World at the start of the movie had Trees etc and must have had basic life forms like Bacteria etc. The Elders created the Engineers to be slaves to carry out duties and tasks that the Elders would not carry out these could be labor intensive and act as Soldiers and Gardners and Care Takers and also to Sacrifice themselves for the greater good and agenda of the Elders. What if a fraction of Engineers was in listed to look after the Garden than was now Earth... But they got lonely, they wanted to create something in their image that they could take dominion over, just as the Elders created them and taken dominion over them. Thus a set of Engineers proceeded to create Mankind using the FIRE of the Elders the FIRE could be what ever was in the Sacrificial Bowl. They was the PROMETHEUS they stole from the Gods, their Gift was not Fire to Mankind but Life to Mankind. As years past the Humans became un-subservient they became rebellious they started to go against their creators wishes, and do things that the Engineers did not want them to do, they misbehaved broke the rules, and was not worshiping the Engineers as Gods. So they decided to create a Bio Weapon or even Re-Engineer a already known Bio Weapon... Somehow they decided to use the FIRE once again, only this time to break down the Xeno Organism and create a new Substance that would act as a Bio Weapon, a re-weaponizing of the Xeno to become a more safer to contain, control and store Weapon and one that can be deployed with greater ease and less risk. They used the FIRE (Substance the Sacrificial Engineer drank) to break down the Xeno into a substance that is stored in the Urns. Only this was PLAYING WITH THE FIRE TOO FAR and this ultimately saw them get burnt and this ended up being their Punishment.

About one of the comments above, the facial expressions of that first egineer must be important, as we know RS himself said there are hints of important things along the movie. His face was not one of joy, concentration or such. If his act was a ritualistic way to create life, even the worries of what is to come would be mixed with the joy of doing something as great. His expressions, as well the way he drank the liquid and the sounds on that scene they call for a lot of things reminding of some kind of really unwilling action, and even not fully knowledge of what was to come. I saw that scene again in my flight back to Brazil yesterday and it calls more and more of something imposed on him, and that still opens it for the idea of some kind of punishment, opening the whole idea to an interesting possibility, as I posted before, truly in line with the overal feeling we have from the Alien Universe. But we need to see what will come. But also seeing that scene and the engineers they found later, and remembering the pics from those we are calling Elders, and paying attention to David in the movie (his lines and actions) it is really hinting that the engineers are an engineered bio-tool, made to be body fit and ready for action, and used as a multi-tool by the Elders, who might be the real Engineers. Some lines like David stating that sons end up wishing their parents dead, and the way David spoke about Weyland with Shaw, or that full scene with the Engineer weaking up (the dialogues and his reactions upon observing Weyland and learning about David) foretels something important on that specific scene that he learned, and the reminder of Replicants...this is really becoming an interesting possibility, which might be explained in the sequel, and we might be really surprised at what will come to pass. Look at those engineers, compared to Elders...muscles and fit. David as wel is fit, if not muscle filled...tools foe many different tasks were their frail masters cold not perform (not the Elders nor Weyland) Even if the first ecene was how they seed worlds, that would also be another strong reason for why the revolt from the Engineers...and maybe hint about the conflict between masters and the sentient tools they use, sometimes in very cruel ways... A warrior, made to fight wars, made by masters he might despise...and these aliens, mistreating their own kind ooking for immortality, and creating servants for themselves (yet different from him, as he was fully biological and that servant was not so....that might also tell a basic difference between humans and those aliens, something that might be important in the long run - as non-biological warriors could also be immune to bio-weapons, and become a real treat if made into enemies...another thing to consider here...) After watching the movie again and paying more attention to David and the Engineers shown in this first installment, this concept becomes more and more logical, and the deleted scenes so far released does warrant soemthing on this direction. As for why targeting Earth, David's line about "To create you sometimes need to destroy" might also hint that the engineers or whatever we may choose to call them, were deseperate in their fight, and willing to deploy thousands of vases on Earth to possibly create an army to use on their fight (remember Fifield, he became a really dangerous zombie of sorts...who knows the xeno change comes through the impregnation like we saw (a specific bio-weapon) and the arsenal they had there was more than xenos... Some would create those, and some others would create zombies and different, dangerous mutated animals, and what else we could have. From masters of Bio-Engineering and so many thousands of vases on those ships, who knows...and maybe that specific juggernaut had only a cargo of zombie-makers to deploy on Earth and poof! Instant Millions Zombie- Troopers . Who knows what other bio-weapons they had in store there... We might see some of these very soon...

Your analogy is a good one and very deep - I like it. But somehow I think it is just a simple scene not meant to mean anything other than what we see take place. I think it's an honor to be chosen to sacrifice one’s self for the creation of others. This engineer was bread for this purpose and this purpose only. Adding to that what was the motivation for this seeding and what was planned once the seed germinates and grows is another question we could get answered in the next movie. What I find so fascinating about this movie is the amount of thought provoking scenes that take place and how they beg you to think about what you just watch and then think again. Every time I watch this movie it makes more sense but then begs me to ask more questions - I love this shit. This movie is a masterpiece. RS said in his director's comments that the answers are all right in front of us on the screen we just have to watch and listen - the man is brilliant.

I think the original SpaceJockey is more of an Atlantean Mermaid-cum-Hermit Crab, rather than a PressureSuit-cum-Driver'sSeat. I'll make a 3D animation one day of this creature, and share my (silly) vision - it'll become an INTERNET SENSATION and I'll be hailed as a moran (correct spelling) eternally, yours. :)

Hard to speculate as we all full well know we're getting an edited down scene anyway The narrative is warped from it's original anyway