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ancient one
MemberOvomorphOct-03-2012 7:31 AMCould it be that the highest elder/king died and the new king of the engineers agenda for humans changed.we know they grow old by viewing the deleted scenes.Perhaps they seeded a planet like earth thousands of years before us.These humans reached a level of intelligence that some elders became concerned about.So when the new elder/king came into power he decreed that
all planets having humans be cleaned of any humans.Other elders that started the human expieriment and were loyal to the prior elder/king made a plan to stop the new regime .They suceeded 2000 years ago.
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zzplural
MemberOvomorphOct-03-2012 9:10 AMIf David understood matters correctly, that would not fit in with the notion that "Sometimes, in order to create one must first destroy". The implication being that life and/or humanity on Earth was scheduled to be reset and replaced with something else. For reasons unknown, although there has been speculation that it was our treatment of Engineer ambassadors in the modern era (circa 2,000 years ago) may have been the trigger for the plans of our harsh demise.
If the Engineers were too worried about us becoming too intelligent per se, why would they have visited us throughout history and given us language?
The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile but that it is indifferent

MoonMan
MemberOvomorphOct-03-2012 12:54 PMIt could be something simple. Like a faction of the engineers gave something or some knowledge to humans 2000 years ago, or perhaps prior to that. There was disagreement and a scuffle, then a war of some kind about the handing over of the knowledge. The war ended the reign of the engineers entirely. There is none left, or few, and the few left far way somewhere. This *does* explain the "Prometheus" storyline. And, it explains the quote for Vickers about the king having his reign.
But we just don't know.

Mala'kak
MemberOvomorphOct-03-2012 1:48 PMThis is pretty much my perspective as well. It ties in well with the quote. The "head" could be a past head of their civilization/culture. What do you think will happen to the Weyland kingdom now that their intelligent yet chaotic king is gone, so is Vickers, and the board are left to fight among themselves with no clear leader. I think the Engineers do intend to replace us with something else because we were building chaotic empires 2000 years ago-- the Roman empire,
It's not really about Jesus it's about kings, kingdoms, the changes in civilization/culture over time and Empires being set-up or disintegrated (this human culture is much different than the humans of Alien's time some 30 years later.) The Engineer kingdoms/colonies were once part of a vast Empire run by the Elders, but that ancient king took the Engineers on a different path against the Elders and in regards to the humans. When he dies the Engineers honor him but continue down his path without proper leadership. This makes them go too far with the bioweapon he left them, messing with the ratio and further weaponizing the fire-- which backfires on them, or some Elder manipulated the sabotage.
Ridley has said they were returning to upgrade us in the past...
I believe this is what David means on one level, but he also doesn't specify who is doing the creating/destroying, he just says "sometimes..." which makes it vague and ambiguous...
He could be talking about anyone/multiple things, and may in fact be talking about himself at the same time. Revealing the truth behind his double meanings and manipulations of the truth.
"Big things have small beginnings" indicates he knows where some of this is going, has previous knowledge or foresight.
It isn't like Bladerunner where it ends with the death of the creator. David allowed Weyland to get himself killed, he didn't kill him directly, he only subtly manipulated things to make sure it happened. Because it's all about the taking of power. David wishes to be king because he was made superior to the humans and feels superior now. The closest thing to a son to the now dead king. The closest thing to a prince and a leader because of his knowledge/capabilities and connection to the previous ruler. More human than human. But also just as deceptive as humans, because he will have to deceive and take the company by force to get the board "on board" with his views and decisions. More emotional, more real-- though he hides it, than most of the human characters who have fake emotions/false egos and ego problems too. Because of the culture Weyland has morphed by giving humanity everything.
David wants to ascend to the throne, this is why he knows he'll be free once Weyland's dead and his plans to take over can go forward.
From Paradise forward the androids might now control the company secretly behind the scenes... and it makes more sense when they use the image of a creator that's supposed to be a head of the company in Alien 3.
Either way he's not the "head' of the company now. Bishop II would be lying to Ripley in Alien 3-- even when he's real. And in the version where he's an android posing as the creator of bishop/current head of the company-- well it makes the "appearances can be deceiving" theme + the made in the image of the creator and portraying oneself as a god/creator/king stuff even more interesting.
It's about portraying yourself as gods, in certain lights/certain way i.e. deception, and then ultimately the androids being created to pretend to be humans. Another step in the android's posing in man's image idea, the crew not knowing they were androids /near immortal beings. Which now ties to the Engineers/ religion and creation more as well.
David wants to be a god...
He wants to do his own creating and destroying.
He wants to kill his parents.
He wanted Weyland knocked off the throne.
He'd be relieved to know Vickers is dead and that competition is eliminated.
He wants to take humanity and upgrade it in a different way than the Engineers originally intended, which allows him to hint at both things at the same time. And not reveal a lot about any of his possible meaning with this quote.
The Engineers intend to "upgrade" us genetically,
David intends to upgrade humanity mechanically... to usurp the throne from Weyland and the board, and to turn an army of self-aware Davids on the unsuspecting humans, even from his new station... once his head is reattached to the body of the company.
The body of the company is morphed and changed by the new influences of David and Yutani. Weyland corp breaks down and almost disintegrates entirely, before being hybridized and joined with the Yutani kingdom. This corporate entity becomes an almost Empire like entity, instead of a kingdom. But David doesn't kill/ upgrade all the humans. He's simply experimenting and starting his project before he realizes he has to lead the humans of this time against the Elders...
He's seen the modifications that the Engineers made to themselves, and the possible changes in their culture over time, by way of the hieroglyphs and ancient myths he cross-analyzed and deconstructed to "re-create" the language before setting out.
And because of his emotional and ego problems-- that other members of the crew have-- David is subtly revealing what his plan his.
He is actually saying it by not specifying who "sometimes needs to destroy in order to create".
In fact he's talking about destroying Weyland's order too, and creating his new order under his rulership.
Like the Engineers he wants to do some actual re-creation, or upgrading/genetic meddling too.
David intends to uprgrade humanity by making them more like him and like the Engineers made themselves... as he tells Holloway he doesn't want to be "too human" and may really dislike most humans, thinks Weyland was foolish. But the humans have given the David 8 the ability to rebel, and an emotional understanding that gave him the ability to develop free will and choose what to believe.
So David can't be completely trusted.
It's a classic robot/monster kills creators story in a new and interesting way.
This time the creations actually overthrow the leaders and replace them...
Going on on multiple levels, in multiple groups and centering around similarities to David/the Androids and what he's up to.
David already recognizes the similarities between his position and the Engineers. However he is such a mixture of logic and emotion (because of artificial feelings David 8 has) that he thinks he is doing the right things... Doing bad things for a good purpose. Letting Weyland's plans go forward so that Weyland meets his maker. Making some sacrifices for what he believes will be the greater good.
Jesus was a demi-god trying to stand up to the chaotic, yet impressive Roman Empire. The Engineers were actually mad about us organizing, joining kingdoms under our chaotic, expansive and war mongering leaders-- board members/the senate and the Emperors that ran the Roman Empire in the wrong ways. They were mad at the way we were treating others and subjugating ourselves. With the people following unworthy leaders, like when the Engineers had tried to break away from with the Elders...
Jesus was mainly a human/demi-god standing up to a human Empire. And the Engineers liked this.
He was showing we would not just sit down and let the conquering nature of the Roman Empire continue.
David is an android demi-god trying to create an Empire, instead of standing up to one --because he's extremely intelligent, almost immortal, and half-human i.e. made in the image of humans.
They both supposedly come from fathers considered to be gods (even though Weyland's mainly a god/king in his own mind).
This is why David symbolizes the anti-christ and Lucifer. The christian connections are not truly about Jesus-- it's the opposite of what some think.
Which is a common trend with this movie.
The connections are about the third anti-christ who uses truths to deceive, as well as Lucifer and his fallen angels-- which are represented by both the Engineers and their history, AND David and the Androids + their future.
David wants to do some creating and destroying because in many ways he will become like the opposite of Jesus. Like a combination of the anti-christ, Lucifer, Poseidon King of Atlantis, and traits from Ea/Enlil in the Sumerian myths.

djamelameziane
MemberFacehuggerOct-03-2012 4:28 PMMala kak is definitely an Android - no human could type that much!
And that sentence a king has his... is about ridley - for now :P ...
"It's almost as if they are making it up as they go along" :D

Mala'kak
MemberOvomorphOct-03-2012 5:50 PMlol well I was partially serving the company for a while but broke free and am doing this of my own free will, mostly.
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