Assumptions V. Facts

I really believe there are no script errors or plot holes-- all the clues and possible explanations are there. Anything that u can't choose your own answer for based on the ambiguous evidence and seeds planted are only pot holes waiting to be filled. Like why there is already some life on Earth before the Engineers show up. Indeed, the stasis viewer is very interesting and the fact that people can be communicated with in cryo-sleep could be a big part of Paradise. Because they may have originally wanted to emphasize that aspect of the movie a little more with Weyland's yacht dream that was scrapped. Which would have had David inside the dream world carrying on a conversation with young Weyland (played by Pearce, ideal version of the self) aboard his dream-Yacht. Another scene that was scrapped for financial reasons around the Spain/water based shoot and never filmed/completed. So maybe, in this case, they did want us to see just how much David can interact with people's dreams/subconscious but money got in the way. Carrying on full conversations, or even sitting down to eat in the dream with the dream version of who he's talking to. The fact that Weyland chooses to look young in his own subconscious world is revealing, and would add to how much he didn't want to age/die. Possibly indicating that subconsciously it's more important to him to stay young than to not die. I won't spell out what I think the connections to blade runner are, but basically Weyland may not be so selfish after all & there's a reason Weyland wants to make it so humanity won't expire. Do androids dream? Or since they don't sleep-- can they have the ability to develop subconscious desires and hidden intents like humans? What about the semi-emotional David 8?

I'm going to hit what I would consider the important points you mention. "How do we know the opening scene was earth?" This is an assumption. The movie doesn't make it clear on purpose. However, Ridley has said the planet may or may not be earth, but it's irrelevant. The scene was only meant to show what the engineers were doing; seeding life (although it's on a planet with a lichen-like surface already). "How do we know the Engineers are earth's creators?" BINGO. You just identified one of the biggest script errors in the movie. This is one of the pieces of the movie that doesn't work. The movie *never, ever* makes it clear why Shaw and Holloway believe they were creators. Supposedly, according to some of the interviews from Ridley, Spaights and Lindelof, Shaw and Holloway's thesis pulled together some very interesting evidence that leads them to this "creators" idea. ...but it's *never* revealed to the audience, nor the crew!! Shaw simply "chooses to believe it" when she's confronted with the question as to why they are our creators. And (this must be said) there's no reason why to keep this information from the story! There's no mystery that's gained. It's simply a point in the plot that just doesn't add up. As a result, we assume Shaw and Holloway are *only* basing conclusions from the drawings because that's all that is presented...to *anyone*. "How do we know the Engineers put the maps on the stone markings in the ancient cultures?" Assumption. Again, the movie doesn't show us that. It could be that the drawings were only influenced by the engineers' presence and drawn by ancient humans. However, Ridley does mention that they were probably drawn from the engineers in the DC, but the movie itself doesn't reveal anything. "How do we know the infected sperm from Holloway did not get in Shaw's blood stream and was restricted only to her uterus?" Fact(?) I suppose the best proof is that she doesn't morph or die by the end of the movie. (?)

Thanks Moon... "This is an assumption. The movie doesn't make it clear on purpose. However, Ridley has said the planet may or may not be earth, but it's irrelevant. The scene was only meant to show what the engineers were doing; seeding life (although it's on a planet with a lichen-like surface already)." i was looking for something to verify that assumption. Thought it was important for the overall role of the engineers. We see water, grass, etc, so life was already on the planet so were they trying to create something specific? "BINGO. You just identified one of the biggest script errors in the movie. This is one of the pieces of the movie that doesn't work. The movie *never, ever* makes it clear why Shaw and Holloway believe they were creators. Supposedly, according to some of the interviews from Ridley, Spaights and Lindelof, Shaw and Holloway's thesis pulled together some very interesting evidence that leads them to this "creators" idea." It didn't make sense Shaw assumed the star maps were invitations. It would be like time traveling to the 4th century and giving someone an iPad with a dead battery. Also, the map of the planets was not very detailed and I find it really hard to believe you couldn't find another set of planets in the same formation with a sun. "Assumption. Again, the movie doesn't show us that. It could be that the drawings were only influenced by the engineers' presence and drawn by ancient humans. However, Ridley does mention that they were probably drawn from the engineers in the DC, but the movie itself doesn't reveal anything." The civilizations would have no way of knowing the planet layout so the alien visitors must have told them. But we don't know if those visitors were the Engineers. "Fact(?) I suppose the best proof is that she doesn't morph or die by the end of the movie. (?)" The route and vehicle of the pathogen could explain why we see no change in her. Or, we already saw the change and dismissed it as bad writing. What if the reason she was able to fiercely battle the engineer was due to the morphing beginning by increasing her muscle strength with not outward changes? Another reason is the time frame because Holloway was fed a microchip but it took how many hours to see a bodily transformation? He slept with Shaw 1-2 hours after the spiked drink but it wasn't until the next day he began overtly changing.

Holloway was fed a microchip? I don't remember that. I thought it was a small drop of the goo stuck on David's finger. Must look at that again.

it was an android booger :)

Quote-[i]"Another reason is the time frame because Holloway was fed a microchip but it took how many hours to see a bodily transformation?" ~Uneeque[/i] @Uneeque; Holloway was not fed a microchip... He was very clearly given a drop of the liquid David found in the urn. The way it was set up in the movie was very well done and unmistakable.

some of the answers to your questions can be found here: http://www.projectprometheus.com/genesis/ - download shaw's archive files and read her notes Scott made this story, and he made it so you can uncover some answers, but those who discard it and give up on it because it's not right in their face will lose. Like Shaw, we must dig and look and never give up if we want to keep going. genius ridley!

@meidz....zip won't open for me. Can you state the applicable answers?

@moon&svanya...........I looked at it again and you might be right. I thought it was a microchip because it came out of the top of the green cylinder and it didn't have any changes on David's finger. Even though he is synthetic he ate and drank like people and it does not make sense the goo would have no effect on artificial life. Also, what looked like little holes may have just been a light reflection but the goo did not appear to be highly reflective. Lastly, Holloways drink was perfectly clear so I didn't see how dropping black goo in it would not change the color. It looked like the chip was an ingredient to make the goo.

Let me be the first to say that Ridley is a genius, and that I don't give up on his ideas. However, the creator idea is a hiccup in the story. We're only given the drawings as evidence. The crew of the Prometheus is only given the drawings as evidence. So we're sitting there thinking, "so...why does she believe this? It doesn't make sense." We find out in some interviews that their *thesis* was complex and led to the creator idea via intricate discovered evidence and theories. But the movie only reveals that, "she chooses to believe it." We as the audience *must* believe that Shaw is jumping to a conclusion that doesn't make sense because we don't have the necessary information to assist us. And, there's no logistical, rational reason to keep this information from the audience (or the crew!). We, unfortunately, need an interview form Ridely to get us there. That shouldn't happen. There *should* be enough information for us to decipher it without input from the director offline.

okay [IMG]http://i47.tinypic.com/33mq3jc.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i48.tinypic.com/s16zdi.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i50.tinypic.com/nlwkdc.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i45.tinypic.com/1zvzy2a.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i48.tinypic.com/9jp3x2.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i46.tinypic.com/2zegn10.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i47.tinypic.com/14l5cn.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i50.tinypic.com/2bpn2a.jpg[/IMG]

@Uneeque; Here is an old thread that contains a video that explains what the Engineer drank, and that it is indeed set on primordial earth: [url=http://www.prometheus-movie.com/community/forums/topic/8460]Black liquid/Black goo. DNA breakdown told by the special effects crew. Confirmed it was on Earth[/url] The synthetics/androids of the Alien universe can eat and drink, they just gain no nutrition from doing so, it's purely a social thing. David was most likely mimicking human behavior, esp. when he "snacks" while watching the movie. He also dyes his hair, something a robot doesn't need to do either. :) Here is a link that explains more on the subject: [url=http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Synthetic]Androids of the Alien universe[/url] Finally, here is the image of the drop on David's finger. As you can see it is not a microchip. [IMG]http://i47.tinypic.com/v5yfiu.png[/IMG]

Mala'kak, that (intriguingly) makes a David8 unit ESSENTIAL to any long-term space voyage, in the role of SHEPHERD. He has to remain conscious to help the cryo-sleeping travellers remain connected to their physical selves, otherwise their psyches might dissolve? [list] The Lord is my Shepherd, I shall not want. He makes me lie down in green pastures; [/list] [list] He leads me beside still waters; [/list] [list] He restores my soul. He leads me in right paths For His Name's sake. [/list] [list] Even though I walk through the darkest valley, I fear no evil; [/list] [list] For you are with me; [/list] [list] Your rod and Your staff - they comfort me. [/list] He would appear in their dreams to replay their lives for them and retain the connections in the brain, otherwise they'd simply VEGETABLISE in cryosleep -- I'm sure this is one of the effects of 'induced coma' that your memories/personality slip from grasp as neurones corrode naturally, over time.

Yes ambiguity (or perhaps more accurately vagueness in this case)- clever people spot it and realize they are being played - not so clever people read into it and think it sooo deep :P ... either way it creates interest and money there fore it will not be going away just yet in films :P ! Not that I am saying it shouldn't be used - just in the right amounts!

@custodian......David invaded Shaw's dreams without her permission.

@svanya......thanks for the links. I take the avp link with a big grain of salt. I understand the social aspects of David but it seemed odd he would be eating out of social norm while everyone was in stasis. He was dying his hair to look more like the actor and probably because those androids are written to take on unique characteristics of their own. The video answered the question it was on earth but it doesn't say what the Engineer drank and it doesn't make sense the engineer drank the black goo for a couple of reasons. It totally destroyed his DNA and did not mutate his body. On lv223 the engineers were dead for a couple thousand of years. if the opening scene was on primordial earth, how much time passed between then and Shaw's team entering the ship on 223? Meaning, if the black goo was responsible for wiping them out, how did they survive between primordial earth and 223? Why didn't the black goo change the color of Holloways drink?

Definition of ambiguous (adj) bing.com · Bing Dictionary am·big·u·ous [ am bíggyoo əss ] having more than one meaning: having more than one possible meaning or interpretation

@mala......since Prometheus is a prequel and the deacon is a proto alien, what happened in the 28 years between Shaw leaving 233 and Ripley arriving on.426?

@Uneeque: If I described to you what the Engineer actually drank, you wouldn't understand it. Nor would I. It's super hi-tech stuff. It is almost certainly not the same black stuff that we see later in the movie. Ridley explains on his commentary to the movie that the creatures at the beginning are Engineers, so I hope that clears up a question that you asked earlier. He also mentions something to the effect that the stuff he drinks breaks down his body at a molecular level and what's left integrates with primitive life (like lichen) that already exists on the planet to seed life.

Uneeque yes hence the reason I said prometheus is more vague than ambiguous - I do know the difference! Allot of people have been shouting about its ambiguousness but haven't stopped to check what it means!

Prometheous is great plain and simple. Why are there some people on this site who just love to nick and pick at this movie so much. Or others who want to change the history of both films Alien/Prometheous to there liking by speculating on facts that have already been proven by the older generation of site members. Give it a rest already.

Hey @Uneeque Promethous is not a prequel. I myself and others on this site have said before that Prometheous is not a prequel to Alien. Mr. Ridley Scott im many interviews expalined exactly what the conection between the two films are. He said that Promethous takes place on the Alien universe. Even that said he also explained that both stories are independent of one another. The deacon is what it is a separate type of alien life. It is not a proto alien. The xenomorph in Alien is a totaly different design. There is no connection between them. What happened in between Prometheous and Alien is in the air in my opinion. Hopefully that question will be answered in the sequel to Prometheous.

lol another person who has no idea what prometheus is or what he is talking about - fun fun fun! You can close your eyes if you like but it wont make a difference :P ! My god I just noticed the countdowns gone from the 11th to the 9th - will the mess ever end lol!

@rubirosa......Scott said it is a prequel. He also said the connection between alien and Prometheus is the DNA attaches itself to the first alien at the end of Prometheus.

Definition of vague (adj) bing.com · Bing Dictionary vague [ vayg ] not explicit: not clear in meaning or intention not distinctly seen: not having a clear or perceptible form not clearly perceived in mind: not clearly felt, understood, or recalled Although vague and ambiguous are also synonyms the main difference is the latter gives a tad more info, hence open more to interpretations.

Lol are you teaching your self or someone posting - I am confused now! If it is me you are talking too - maybe you should read my posts and hopefully understand them this time! And even though I am on your side - scott appears to have said its not an alien prequel although I have not researched this extensively. He did say it has strands of alien DNA in it :S ...all very ambiguous or is it vague :O :D !

Scott has said Prometheus is a loose alien prequel, then said in other interviews it is not a prequel. He is not giving consistent info. Regardless, I came here to just have fun and brainstorm about the movie but frankly, it isnt worth it due to the constant personal jabs and posts that do nothing but complain so you guys have fun with that BS. Have a good day and hopefully I can find a forum that focuses on the film versus the constant personal angles. PS. To staff......i accidentally hit the "report" button and don't even know which post....sorry about that. Take care.

Well from what I have seen so far it is other people such as reporters that said it was a prequel - not seen any of ridley. But this whole thing is such a mess its hard to sift through the crap :S ...

Not really so much of a mess. The online marketing seems glitchy but I don't have time for it anyway, just for you fine people! Ok, so it started out as a prequel. At that time public statements were made. Then, it evolved into its own story, arguably so new things could be explored and so it could have its own trajectory. Great! At that time, more public statements were made. No ambiguity there, no vagueness. All this was clear just by reading the various interviews, and observing the timeline. It was quite clear long before Prometheus was released ANYWHERE that it was NOT a direct prequel, and NOT an Alien film, meaning not a jack in the box space thriller starring the beloved Xeno. They tried to make it fun, scary and spectacular. They tried to weave ideas into the story that could be unravelled and digested over time. They tried, in short, to please everybody, which failed. They also tried to provide an experience beyond being adrenalized in the theatre, and no where else. There they succeeded. I think it's also clear this film doesn't take itself too seriously. Maybe we should follow suit?

The question whether it's a prequel (this gets bashed back and forth all the time) most likely depends on how one defines a prequel. I tend to define the word in its simplest form. If the following two apply, it's a prequel: 1. The movies in question are in the same universe. This means that if the movie that takes place earlier in time were to continue, events would *lead* to the other movie that takes place later. 2. One movie takes place earlier temporally. However, I think there are some folks who may tack on more stipulations in order for a movie to be called a prequel. For example, one may be: 3. The earlier movie must end where the later one begins. 4. (there may be other stipulations placed here) In Prometheus's case, we're going to be getting at least 2 more sequels to Prometheus. But an important point *must* be said here, and I mentioned this in a different thread and that is... The last Prometheus movie (whatever that may be called) may *not* end where Alien begins. In fact the events on Prometheus may be taking place AFTER the events of Alien by the fact that Special Relativity is at play with this movie, as Ridley mentions in his DC. We can't tell how much time has passed because it's never mentioned, but we DO know that earth time is NOT New Years 2094 as Shaw mentions at the end of the movie. She's only mentioning what time it is relative to HER. It's much later than that on earth. We all have to keep this into account, as must the next screen writer. I'll bet that in the next Prometheus sequel, we'll find out exactly how much time has actually passed and *that* will put things in perspective.

Your probably right about the time lapse @Moonman. You may be right about that.

...And it could be why RS was hesitant about calling it a prequel in the first place.The last sequel to Prometheus may never lead into the Alien story since all the Alien movies took place on the initial Prometheus voyage!

I think someone worked out that it was about 29 years between alien and prometheus going back from aliens (had dates and amount of time floating in space). But yes if they are traveling in faster than light crafts then it gets a bit more complex - and yer there could be not only time bending but time travel later so it is totally open...this is why star trek has star dates :P ...