Forum Topic
nostromo001
MemberOvomorphNov-06-2012 3:54 PMBy now we have all seen the extra material directly related to Prometheus, such as the Peter Weyland TED talk and Elisebeth Shaw Quiet Eye transmission. Were these produced by Ridley Scott as promotional material never intended to be added to Prometheus or were they directed by others within Fox Studios purely meant for promotional purposes? Does anyone know anything about these extra and intriguing pieces of which there are more and are not considered deleted scenes as far as I can tell?
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17 Replies
nostromo001
MemberOvomorphNov-06-2012 6:07 PMSo it is part of a conscious viral promotional series for Prometheus. Clever notion. Considering that they plan on green lighting at least one sequel, Paradise, it would be cool if they put out one every so often to keep interest and anticipation high. I say that because I would just like to see more of them:)
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Mateo
MemberOvomorphNov-06-2012 11:50 PMI see Prometeus adventure with Dante's imaginary world, we had with Prometheus the prelude of Paradise, Hell, each of them divided into circles at different levels, circle is a ubiquitous symbol throughout the film, this has strokes to become in a film for believers and agnostic people. Whats the Numerology and symbolism of the Divine Comedy?
The number 100 is symbolic and is a usual amount in the medieval texts of didactic character; in the same way, the number 3, based on the structural conception of the comedy, also has a high symbolic value in medieval Numerology, as an example of perfection and unity in diversity: in short, it would be the numerical interpretation of the mystery of the Trinity.
The three meaning, in the medieval Christian mentality, the divine perfection, since God is represented in three persons: father, son and holy spirit. There are three parts of the poem, and each part consists of 33 chants; 3 are the verses of each verse (called tercet). The nine, multiple of three, strengthen the value of this last number, so it also determines the structure: each of the three parts of the work is divided into nine circles.
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joeyjoe
MemberOvomorphNov-06-2012 6:26 PMthe viral videos were written by lindelof and, as stated by mateo, directed by luke scott (ridley's son). Id say the aforementioned videos are canon(ish).
I like your idea about continuing the viral videos. I think it would be smart and would add to the richness of prometheus and its sequel(s).
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Mala'kak
MemberOvomorphNov-06-2012 7:14 PMI think continuing with the virals in between movies could be what's gonna start happening right away. Hopefully my expectations aren't being tempered too much by my own hopes that play into my theories. It's mostly because of how much I enjoy Prometheus and need to see more, even if the sequel won't be here for awhile.
I'm expecting something a little longer than the virals we've seen so far to be released right away. Something that will start to change our perspectives on the mysteries in Prometheus slightly, revealing a little about David's true motives through his re-birth. His relaunching. His reattaching... Connecting thematically to the Happy Birthday viral. A small present that finally sets one or two things somewhat straight.
David is near-immortal and can't die. He almost faced his end when his head was ripped off and his mind lost control of the body (could be thematically related to what happens to Fifield, the exploding head/ how the goo mixture infects heads sometimes, as well as the Hammerpede entering trough a hole in the head. It ties into my theory about most of the crew having personality disorders and being not quite right in the head. Although they seemed somewhat normal and their behaviours are understood by some as script and characterization problems, they could in fact be personality disorders related to the ego. Thinking they're right about the nature of the Engineers and being wrong. Shaw accepts she is wrong. Her emotions are not that of a child. David's are right now, but they're evolving past the child-like emotions displayed by most of the crew... he actually is becoming a real boy... but is selfish and egotistical like a child who does not completely understand morality.
Each person affected by their particular disorder would be acting in the way one would expect if this is the case. Their behaviour seems illogical and unexplainable because we can't understand their perspectives. We're not fully inside the characters heads, in part because of the way the movie was chosen to be edited--with bits and pieces of the full perspectives on the characters and the film left out... Before the release David said the film is all about getting into "David's head", the robots perspective. In some ways I believe this statement carried a lot more meaning than what he was saying, and is a key to the movie and David's admiration of Lawrence of Arabia/ his trick.
Again Shaw doesn't ignore the evidence, she simply doesn't ask questions or understand certain things to be evidence or clues (though she should as an archaeologist). David may be purposely hiding things. Choosing what to believe/report like Shaw, but also choosing what to ignore...
When science starts ignoring even small pieces of evidence then we have problems with occam's razor being the most likely explanation... instead the explanation becomes a lot more complicated.
Unpredictable, unlike the Star Wars prequels.
In part because they've only worked out the "broad strokes" so far too.
I honestly believe the filmmakers are speaking through David, "Big things have small beginnings". "Sometimes to create one must first destroy"-- the old Alien design was broken down and reborn to create the Deacon. Something slightly familiar, yet slightly different. An upgrade.
Shaw and David are the only ones who aren't actually slightly crazy. David is immoral, yet logical. And Shaw has a weird mixture of logic/intelligence and intuition, or instinct. Her head is still in control of her body which allows her to survive where Vickers fails. Shaw is able to combine logic and instinct to survive and perform the c-sec on herself. The crew's heads have lost control of their bodies. Some of them are overconfident or have slightly different ego problems like Millburn who alters his personality after his first lines with Ffield.
The head of Weyland corp is killed and he loses control of the body of the company... and the company is later mutated into Weyland-Yutani by the new influence of the Alien genetics (Weyland wanted immortality in this story, not the bio-weapon yet, that's David's bag... gathering all the useful data). I think the head/death of the head themes are far more important to the story than simple homages to Ash getting his head ripped off. Partially explaining why there is a giant head in the middle of that room, an ancient leader or god-king that was worshiped after he died... In comparison to the Hammerpede that can regrow its head instantly... like the head of a company or corporate body/culture...
How cool would it be to see a viral teaser for Paradise detailing how Shaw reattaches David's head and letting us see completely inside David's mind for like 2 mins or so in the process?
Shaw gets to see David's dreams because of they way in which she is instructed to reattach this robots brain to him by David himself. Which puts him into a sort of standby mode for a few mins as Shaw works on him.
David wants control of the entire body of the company.
After he regains control of his body and his rebirth is complete he gains a little more freedom now that his programmer is dead. He will move one step closer to true immortality, true godliness, freeing a large number of the other Davids from a colony world and becoming almost omnipresent.
Something which is reversed by the time David's war with the engineers is over, and by the time of the Original Alien. With all the Davids being mysteriously absent from the timeline, (there are millions being used during the time of Prometheus). The beauty would be how and why David's war with the gods has been covered up by the company and why there are still serious threats out there that make the company and later androids try at any cost to retrieve the bio-weapon. The lesson is almost that no group should try to control or play with the fire if they can't understand it or can't even come close to containing it, like how Weyland-Yutani tries to do by giving orders to Ash and Burke. Bishop might not take orders from people if his behaviour inhibitors allow him to help it. He would become almost the opposite of David.
Near the end of the series we could get some hints that David is starting to realize the mistakes of his actions, and could have to sacrifice himselves to attempt to reset things.
I really think Paradise will blow some minds when it's released, pun intended.
We may need quite a few virals to get us through until Paradise comes about, but the good thing is I can see many ways where additional virals help clarify (or falsify) things in Prometheus and draw us into the sequel to follow the results of these new developments to things like knowing more about David's true motives. Making people watch and rewatch the movies numerous times to analyze or over analyze, which can lead to being wrong... but also revealing some small clues through the new virals that allow us to place certain pieces of the puzzle in a different perspective.
It could make some theories seem more true, while at the same time adding in more red herrings to keep building up the possibility for anything to happen in the encore.
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Oneironaut 717
MemberOvomorphNov-06-2012 7:41 PMI also have the feeling we may see more of these viral shorts. There was some news last week I believe, I'll see if I can dig up the article in a minute. Word is Ridley is creating a 6 part mini series - to be filmed in Ireland. Take note: within the horror and sci -fi genre.
I wonder what thats all about?
Ah yes, here is the link:
[url=http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/11/02/northern-ireland-offers-fertile-film-making-ground-for-ridley-scott/]Ridley to direct a 6 part horror/sci-fi mini series in Ireland[/url]
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Mala'kak
MemberOvomorphNov-06-2012 7:58 PMVery interesting, maybe whoever said it could be leading to a tv series was entirely correct. Unlike some I think there is a huge master plan for the movies to eventually connect in a more concrete way to the originals. Lindelof may have learned from his mistakes through the reaction to the Lost ending. I think this could be why David represents the negative aspects of Lindelof in a meta way within the film. And Weyland represents the negative aspects of Ridley and his need to be a businessman while dealing with Fox and the company, stepping up to lead the series again after the failures of AVP but having to make certain compromises and sacrifices because of the demands of Fox and hollywood.
I'm feeling Lindelof may have helped develop part of the entire plan for the series as well as the nature of the viral campaign, but i think Ridley has the ending in his pocket. They're using the same tricks as Lost, planting some red herrings but only to keep us guessing about what will happen, when some of our intuitions have already figured out that somethings are very different about the Engineers and the old version of the engineers... Lindelof has upgraded his tricks and he and Weyland are mentoring each other in some ways. Unlike what is going on in the film where David is basically a servant to Weyland at the start. Lindelof is allowing us to think he was only doing some work for Ridley, taking Ridley's ideas and working them in but I believe this is simply another manipulation. If Lindelof= David in some ways it would mean David is making some of the decisions on his own and not simply being programmed by Weyland as the film can almost lead you to believe.
This movie wants you to hold false beliefs... to be wrong, because like the filmmakers and trailers it is somewhat deceiving...
Not false memories like in Bladerunner, Weyland found that idea semi-interesting, but instead he works more so through subconscious and conscious false beliefs. Only because the movie is purposely ambiguous and encourages one to "choose what to believe". Which can lead to us misinterpreting the unclear clues and taking the wrong meaning from the hidden messages, like the characters do with the star map.
This movie is only a small beginning. A map to what will happen next. But the map is strange, confusing, and can be interpreted in many ways. There could be a completely different purpose behind it than what we're currently thinking. And it takes new evidence to allow us to view all of the other potential evidence in a new light.
Old version of the Alien, and now the new updated Deacon....
No females seen in the Engineer species so far.
I'm just gonna come out and say it. If they do bring a King alien into it as I strongly believe the King themes are foreshadowing. Then there could be some sexual dimorphism witnessed within some of the species-- a difference in the size between females and males that is far different from what's going on in humanity and apes (where males are on average a little larger).
The Deacon may grow to a tremendous size, but not only because the Engineers are tall. Also because their male hormones are different than ours, and this thing last passed through a male. Taking on a more male appearance as it grows, although the alien genetics are designed to contain both sexes (usually males are warriors under the lead of a Queen, being repressed from being anything else). This would be about the King repressing the female side of things... the auto med designed only for males is thematically tied to this, but it's also foreshadowing.
I think there's a hidden story about that Deacon and Yutani that is waiting to be told too. The TV show could help set some of this up.
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Mala'kak
MemberOvomorphNov-06-2012 8:17 PMIn regards to the movie being a map-- you may need to be able to read the map first like David can, and the virals and a mini-series could go a long way towards making Prometheus into a different sort of beast. David seems to understand things in advance sometimes because of his own particular combination of knowledge and intuition(belief), which differs from Shaw's own combination that leads to her survival skills. As he himself admits, David only worked out the broad strokes of the Engineer's plan. His beliefs and perspectives could be only that... only a thesis.
Meaning he may be right for a lot of it, but the parts where he's somewhat vague or ambiguous cover up the fact that he has alternate possibilities in mind as well. He's analyzed all the possibilities and has additional clues from being able to read the hieroglyphs and not fully informing the crew that he is able to.
David's curse is that he over-analyzes too much and sees all the possibilities. Because of his experiences and what he learned his mind is developing a certain way... he learned from Shaw's dream to choose what to believe and this is the key that allows him to start gaining free-will.
He learns part of his trick from Shaw, which makes it easier for him to act against Weyland, but he's still forced to carry out orders. He chooses how to carry out those orders, and how to interpret "try harder"...
He chooses one of the many possibilities he has in mind to present to the crew with as fact.
Because he words things a certain way, refers to multiple things at the same time, and quotes Lawrence of Arabia and Joseph Stalin, David technically never lies. But he is deceiving by withholding the truth and not explaining his persepctives, not showing the crew the evidence that is the direct basis for his theories.
Like Shaw, David wants to figure it all out and has the ability to.
He's selfish like Weyland, made in Weyland's ideal-self image. He wants the fire for himself... he wants Androids to be the new gods... A reflection of Weyland's belief that he was a god and above all the other humans as a King.
David has an ego problem that can be observed too, as well he refers to LoA like Weyland does. Makes himself out to be Lawrence-- a leader of men.
He feels humans of this time are childlike and can't lead themselves anymore after becoming dependent on Weyland, the father of the way their culture became. It's all about nature/nurture... Shaw presumably has a very good father.. David doesn't... Nurture always plays into things, but the nature or genetic nature of children can help form major facets of their personalities.
With David, Weyland is his father/programmer/creator... as well as the creator of the current era that David was born into. So the cultural elements come into this big time. We now know the engineers are more like humans, meaning they have a form of culture which may be able to be understood through archaeological principles. Something Shaw and Holloway didn't know fully at first. Yet Holloway had his own theories and anticipated that "Gods don't build in straight lines". He is looking for evidence that makes his particular thesis, or view more correct. And in this way ends up reacting like a child and thinking the temple is only a tomb, when there are much greater secrets that the temple holds that could be unlocked by archaeologists who are actually viewing them as a human culture.
He chooses not to warn Weyland about the bio-weapons, when Weyland is still stuck believing they are gods who hold eternal life (Weyland just woke up). The two giants come face to face.
nostromo001
MemberOvomorphNov-06-2012 8:28 PMOneiro, thanks for the news on Ridely Scott. Any series done by him is garunteed to be a thrilling and provocative one. I don't know if you were raising the question of could they be related to the prometheus shorts or Prometheus itself, but if so I would say no, they will be horror/ Sci-fi yes, but highly unlikely related to Prometheus.
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Oneironaut 717
MemberOvomorphNov-06-2012 8:36 PMNot all, I just wanted to share the news - you're right it may not have anything to do with Prometheus. But the fact that he is getting involved in a horror/sci fi 6 part mini series, is pretty exciting.
I think it will keep us occupied until he unleashes part two of Prometheus and Blade Runner. :D
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Mala'kak
MemberOvomorphNov-06-2012 9:19 PMI hope so. This is great possible news. We may need more than virals to set up Yutani's involvement in the sequels if a merger is on the horizon. I may be hinting that there are definitely more virals on the way because of my limited previous knowledge about all that and adding my own intuitions to that... (like some previous knowledge Holloway may have picked up on a tour of Mars--they may have used the martian references for a reason that will become clear later).
There are definite reasons that I keep repeating that big things have small beginnings to stress that part of my message to anyone who liked Prometheus but thought it could have been better. Meaning what's coming could completely surpass the start of it all, and grow into something much, much larger than the original Alien mythos. A sequel that has actually been planned out to add to, complete, and surpass the original story in numerous ways. A whole additional movie that allows us to look at Prometheus, and some of the characters, differently. In a way far greater than what the tinfoil unicorn did to Bladerunner, because this has been planned out to completely change everything we thought we learned from David and Prometheus.
In a number of years all this could quickly make Prometheus into a movie that makes complete sense and is one of the best starts to a series in cinematic history.
Instead of it being mainly a problem of it not being recognized for how good it is and later gaining a cult following as Alien did this is somewhat different. With alien they never set out to divide people after the initial release, but people caught on to how good it was, saw the deeper meanings, and added deeper meaning themselves anyway (the filmmakers claim they weren't trying to make it about female empowerment).
Here they may have purposely set out to make Prometheus seem like less than it is... and to address and connect to the supposed female empowerment themes in the original... This is why the King thing comes up, and the Engineers lack the genitalia that would make their x and y chromosomes identical to ours. Plus the male only auto med machine.
So far we've only seen Queens in the Alien series, but the Deacon and this series are something entirely different than what we're expecting. The crew were expecting Gods and found the opposite: human-like beings, "mortal after all". We are expecting the Deacon could become a Queen but we are dead wrong... Millburn says it himself about the look of the the Hammerpede/Alien genetics there. It can be viewed as male or female imagery: "You really think that thing's female?..." and then it reveals a hood similar to a King cobra's. Reinforcing the male themes again in a subtle way. The female genetics are still there, only here it will be the King repressing his servants and the female side... "A king has his reign and then he dies" becomes prophetic foreshadowing. The king is not the logical choice to run an Alien hive. It turns out both sides are needed but in the Alien's case the Queen's mode of reproduction will always be safer and more logical. Necessary once a hive is in full swing... the Queen repressed the male side. After the current Kings are dead the female side will stope being repressed like with the King designing the med lab for himself (not even for Vickers). The female ruler-ship side of things has been repressed and killed for now, partially because Weyland would not just die and let Vickers take over the company.
They wanted some people disappointed and emotional like the crew, they provoked all sorts of emotional responses... and logical ones in the form of people here and on AVP galaxy who have probably figured out large parts of the puzzle by combining logic and intuition, then choosing what to believe is the correct theory. We narrowed things down as communities and cultures, developed dominant theories and ideas for what to expect in the series. And they wanted to drop the ball a little with some expectations for now. Forcing us to think about how it all connects for ourselves, not spelling it out. Not leading us by the hand. Allowing us a little free-will for now about how we think it will all connect.
It could be changed by the answers they've chosen in a way that people will make people eventually come to love and understand Prometheus while further evidence and clues to the overall puzzles of the series become clearer. Prometeheus possibly having to be re-watched after seeing Paradise to understand what may happen in the next movie. A mini-series could really get this started and help build the universe.
It may take all three (or four) movies, the upcoming virals, and possibly a mini-series to solve the mystery of exactly what happened to that original Jockey. Because of just how "big" the additions to the Alien mythology made by this series are going to be to keep us focused on other things as the clues to the true mystery we've always been wondering about flash by and are revealed piece by piece.
Cut up and spread across different places, like what happened with the deleted scenes that may have been purposely removed or altered to keep us with a less complete picture about the characters, about everything, for now.
My main theory and intuition is that they are messing with us until the third movie where we actually see one of the original jockies, and find out that under their suits they are the females of the species...
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Mala'kak
MemberOvomorphNov-06-2012 10:05 PMThe true creators of life. It takes both a mommy and daddy in some ways (many ways really because Shaw and David sort of become a figurative leading couple of the series) But the female side is the true carrier of life in humans, the normal rulers of the Alien hierarchy. In our overall culture we've made a lot of strides towards equality, but there are still glass ceilings in some ways. This addresses not only the evils of the corporations currently influencing our societies (something Ridley was afraid of in Bladerunner), it also talks about the evils of male-domination, of Patriarchy within the corporations and our own cultures. Of the need for equality. Weyland just had to have his son; this could have been a big mistake. Furthermore it could be the cause of many peoples' problems in the Alien/Pantheon universe. Pantheon would be a good title for the third and biggest movie but there are others that could be considered. The common theme is all the titles will start with a P and be related to Greek mythology. The connection to Paradise is subtle...
Atlantis was considered a Paradise to the Greeks, but so was Olympus. Atlantis was Olympus on Earth. A kingdom ruled by Zeus's brother Poseidon who had more in common with the Titans. He has dealings with the Titans and is technically only half-brother to Zeus--he's not like the other Olympians so he and his Atlantean people live on Earth for a time... Poseidon is the first creator of the humans in the Greek myths, however he does so under Zeus's loose orders. Choosing how to create & eventually turning humans into hybrid monsters & mermaids. Zeus gave them the fire... which makes the Olympus born Atlanteans superior to the early humans they rule. It could even make Zeus nervous of having Poseidon and Prometheus's creations (any round of humanity) in possession of the fire ever again, although it's hard to draw that meaning from the myths. Abusing his power/advanced science/the fire and leading to the destruction of Paradise/Atlantis and much of ancient Earth. Connecting it to gods who have been said to punish us in the past. Shaw should know that gods and their offspring/brothers only punish us when we're doing something they don't like. She needs to know why we're being punished because even if she only understands it on a subconscious/instinctive level so far, it's important in some way to her religious beliefs.
If alien astronauts are real in this series and being compared to beings from Greek mythology, why can't one of the factions be related to the very first culture of humans known to the Greeks... A mysterious advanced culture from an island kingdom, who passed on their knowledge to the Greek isles and many other cultures (supposedly in some theories, Egyptians and Sumerians make mentions of an island kingdom who could very well be compared to the Atlanteans).
Atlantis/Paradise is lost because of this, plus a massive flood that may end up being linked to floods from other myths. A flood that drowns out their "fire". They side with the Titans over the Olympians in the Titanomachy, the war of the Gods against the Titans (Fathers/Elders) in which the Olympians become victorious over multiple groups and steal all remaining the remaining power the Titans had. Zeus wanted to see his parents dead... Zeus was also a little bit disrespectful to his wife. Poseidon wanted to see his brother dead... and Hades, well he's already dead and that story is best left for after the sequel. Once Yutani dies too.
Poseidon was after his superior, his ruler and king Zeus. Not only does he side with the Titans against the Olympians, he also sides with the second round of humans who Zeus intends to destroy along with his first round of humans: The Atlantean humans (some of which are now Mermaids or centaurs etc as Atlantis falls). when Zeus began to challenge the Titans and Poseidon knew it was against their best interests. Even Hades knew this but liked the idea (the third brother in the mix, the completely evil one). This is what David was doing by manipulating things and almost siding with the Engineers to have the Engineer kill Weyland (he analyzes everything and can see this outcome but doesn't have to stop it or reveal it to Weyland like Shaw tries to..) His King happens to be his father. He can't just kill the King, it would look bad for a prince to do that and then start making his way to the throne of humanity. Androids become kings, we may find out the true Gods are bio-mechanical and exist on a level higher than female Engineers.
Poseidon creates the Atlantean humans-- the very first round of humans in the Greek myths. In a time before Prometheus is tasked with re-creating the later rounds of humanity.
The Engineers were created first as servants of the Elders and we're a recreation of them (I'm just explaining the thought process, I pretty much know they symbolically represent Atlanteans in some ways). Paradise should speak about how multiple Paradises were lost. We still have an archaeologist who follows some beliefs that are uncommon among scientists, she looks for answers where some archaeologists don't, above and below. Most of her ideas about them possibly being more like a human culture were beneath the surface. On the surface she really seemed to think they were gods, but she gets a reality check and starts thinking their creators may be gods...
To understand everything fully she may have to tap back into her archaeological/scientist side more to begin first figuring out more about the culture they just met.. in order to find her answers about the creators.
"As above, so below". The things that have played out in the past between the Engineers and Elders begin to be played out by the Androids and Humans.
The servants turn against the masters and previous kings. To move the group in question one step closer to the true Gods by killing and stealing power from the Elders/fathers/God "The father", when really it could turn out some sort of universal Mothers are on the very top. A Goddess. The repressed Goddess aspect that all of our recent religions have fallen into. There are no female gods or angels of any power in the Bible, simply not so in the very first versions of the Hebrew bible which are the basis of everything that follows and if one were to believe should be the closest to the truth.. Where their God is a feminine force, and even they lost their way and removed the female elements after the Queens of the Stone Age are removed from power (don't remove them from power, buy their new album when it comes out, I'm helping them record it right now).
Shaw wished she could read all the cultural clues like David could, but unfortunately she couldn't and never had time to ask enough questions/gather more data. David did it all instantly...
The planned (and supposedly scrapped) sunken city scene could come back into this at some point as it's very important towards developing more reversals around the Engineers and what they are.
Poseidon is a mythological figure similar to Lucifer or the fallen angels in some ways. "Dark angels"= fallen angels...
The true creators of life= the female side of things + a little bit of the mechanical. A side that has been repressed in Prometheus, but Shaw overcomes the male only programming by combining her knowledge, logic, and instinct/belief. David wishes to rule his siblings, humanity, and has already been created with an unfair advantage over most humans-- he's every bit as intelligent as Weyland was and even more so. He actually can make valid archaeological assessments and inquiries within his own mind instantly, and could analyze/understand many different things at the same time simply by scanning them. He has the benefit of being able to see and understand (possibly record and store) everything, but chooses not to inform the crew of any of his findings unless they ask him a direct question. Even then he finds ways to be vague, ambiguous, or to almost dodge the question like a politician or leader using double-speak would: still trying to preserve part of the truth but ultimately deceiving.
Parts of thinking that are linked to major organic structures in the brain, as well as theories about how the brain works in psychology.
One new dominant belief in psychology is that the brain functions much like how we have developed computers to function...
This brings us back to David: Who may have been given a bad brain by his creator, like Frankenstein: The Modern Prometheus.
It was a major mistake to make David understand emotion in a time when the later behavioural inhibitors of Bishop had not yet been invented.
This brings the psychology of behaviourism into it and led me to believe other things about the psychological make-up of the crew.
They probably weren't given tests to make sure they were alright on a subconscious level, like the Rorschach like test given to David in the Happy Bday viral.
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Mala'kak
MemberOvomorphNov-07-2012 12:49 AMYep the number 3 is very important to all this.
I loved reading that last post because I was big into numerology when I was younger.
Its symbolism within the film can lead to the realization that things are not always one way or another, or the way we believe at all. Sometimes things are a mixture of things or driven by something unseen. There is something between the two numbers. It's not light at one point and then completely dark the next. There's a transition period, or dusk.
When Eve ate the apple the serpent gave her she gained knowledge of good and evil. We may have good and evil factions of engineers coming into this... but there's also something in between. Something between logic and intuition. Something between good and evil, where sometimes grey areas are created like what I believe will be created with David. Neither an evil nor good android. A little bit of both, like how Shaw is a scientist and religious.
It's not all just ones and zeros, eventually ghosts show up in the machine. There's a need to sometimes even program in subroutines that act as a third option between on and off. This is why I firmly believe the movie is a mixture of many diverse things, a mixture of opposites, and why the Temple could have been a partially functioning ancient atmospheric processor of the Engineers' design.
Representing the trinity. Representing the third unseen variable. The holy ghost. Which is why all our people who are dead or soon to be are represented by ghost-like Holograms. "I've never had to follow a ghost". Funny because in another way they're all taking orders from a man they believe to be a ghost, who soon will be a ghost because of the plan he has enacted.
There's sometimes a third variable related to two variables that appear to be in a causal relationship of some sort. Through testing theories and gathering evidence we sometimes find that the third variable is affecting each, making it seem like two relating or opposing variables are more connected than they are.
In psychology, correlation=/= causality and some were subconsciously and consciously thinking it did after we saw the trailer. Psychologists have to form experiments and hypothetical thought experiments to find ways to follow their hypotheses through and make logical and accurate conclusion based on forms of inductive and deductive reasoning.
The trick is you have to sometimes think like a philosopher or a cognitive psychologist to be able to solve some of these mysteries from the clues they've provided and follow theories trough to their necessary and logical conclusions that tie into all the available and observable evidence we have. Testing and negating alternate hypotheses by sometimes having others work on them, find new evidence, present new perspectives.
This is a trap leaders fall into. Because of their positions of power corrupting them they begin rejecting other opinions of those around them. not considering everything and thinking only they can be right. In Weyland's he case he is so sure that these "gods" hold the key to his eternal life.
I mean this is why my ramblings above about the three main ruling Olympian Gods who are brothers make sense mainly to me.
Hades is the one we believe to be evil.
Zeus is the one we believe to be good, who actually did many terrible things, much more so than most other Gods and Mythological figures. The least of which is cheating on his wife Hera.
Poseidon is the one who is in between good and evil, the third variable, or third brother who is usually not talked about, and disappears from the Earth at a point in the myths. They become the unseen variable behind humanity's development in the Prometheus franchise.
The beings in the Isle of Sky cave painting are being worshiped as Kings as well as Gods by the people who are depicted alongside them in the pictogram.
Ridley likes symbols and is a master of conveying many things at once visually. Some things we may not notice we are subconsciously experiencing... The beings in this image above all others are being worshiped as if they were physically on the Earth with humans. As if they were God-kings.
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Mala'kak
MemberOvomorphNov-07-2012 1:08 AMOf course the dusk example leads to another number--the number 4, a number associated with order and creation in some ways. The Dawn. Another form of the unseen three when it begins to make itself apparent, a return to order. A mixture in a different ratio (differences between the effects of the goo).
The effects might be a mixture of two substances, the alien genetics in the innermost parts of the ampule, and the black liquid part. Combined in different ways. The three can also represent everything all at once which leads to a little bit of the dark side of things. All connected.
One form of the combined substance destroys and recreates. One directly mutates and overwrites. There could even be a third mixture or effect the Engineers didn't even anticipate in their data. They are human-like after all and we make mistakes.
David is a mixture of things too. Logic and intuition. Science and an ability to understand emotion to a degree that the other androids couldn't.
Weyland was a King according to Vickers, almost like a dictator, but maybe she meant it in the Greek sense where they became dictators at certain times. A system that their successors the Romans abused when they eventually chose to not give up power and became Emperors. Part of the reason the Engineers want to kill us could still be because of the Roman Empire, even if the Jesus stuff has been completely taken out of the equation.
Kings can be viewed as being good or bad, but we mainly get the bad connotations of one person ruling above all others.
However, I think Weyland is that third case and was going through his Dusk.
He wasn't completely evil yet but he always had the ego and ability to become that way. His ego used to be justified. The thing about arrogance is that sometimes a justified sense of pride, or actually knowing one is right, can lead to the emotions associated with the display of arrogance...
Weyland was egotistical but he hadn't yet begun to become completely arrogant.
He was completely confident in his abilities in the beginning and delivered on his promises. Inventing many great and wondrous technologies for the human people at the start of the timeline. The start of his rule. Possibly the start of some of his propaganda. If you look at the Weyland site timeline it almost makes Weyland look like a good king. Then we see him in the movie.
He was a creator and a genius, no doubt. But he was a little too egotistical thinking that he was a god and could become immortal.
He could be considered a good or a bad king because everything around that subject is subjective, and this leads to the creation of gray areas.
To many Weyland may have seemed like a God and a fair king who cured Cancer and saved the world from environmental disaster with the creation of the atmospheric processor.
We know him as he was at the end of his life, when his arrogance, greed, and power lust are the only things left and the Weyland of the past has disintegrated. Morphed into this monster in old timey monster movie makeup.
Still the same man yet different.
If you look at the whole of his legacy he was a good king and a bad king at the same time.
A creator and a potential destroyer of his own company as we know it in its current form. He ended his own life by embarking on the mission. And because he got his only heir killed in the process, this has terrible affects on the culture he leads and the future of his company.
The death of the King sets off a chain reaction of events that progress, and partially regresses things to the way they are in the original Alien. Weyland corps' Paradise period is over. Weyland gave the people so many technologies that they may have now become reliant on... The death of their brilliant King and leaving the company in the hands of less intelligent and chaotic board members could be a big mistake. Giving Vickers control of the company might have been a better idea because at least she likes to minimize risk (her form of order would minimize risk like that of the Alien Queen once she has warriors and drones who will obey her...) Weyland's mythological golden age is over.
With Weyland-Yutani operating even more like an empire than a kingdom when it comes to form. A combination of kingdoms, both at the same time, with an as of yet unseen leader to the company in the originals.
The Bishop in Alien 3 was only the creator of Bishop, who was made in his image. A similar sort of theme is brought up in Prometheus. As well as a deception theme which is what the androids and this Bishop have always tried to do to Ripley. Ripley has always been instinctively and logically opposed to the company in some ways. She knows not to trust them after her past experiences with Ash and seeing the executive order. What if this series will reveal exactly who gave/set that executive order? The amount of years between Alien and Aliens means the creator of Bishop could not have been the "head" of the company, or the executive who gave that order.
He may not have been the current "head" of the company in Alien 3.
Simply the creator of Bishop using the image of Bishop and Ripley's experience with him (which the company knows of) to attempt to manipulate Ripley. To make her hold false beliefs. To trust the creator of Weyland/the android impersonating him (in the special edition).
The unseen head of the company could be anybody.
I will tell you it may start to look like it's going to be David as he overthrows humanity... but this may not be the way the end works out.
Humans are the true monsters and David is more human, or more real than the crew who suffer personality disorders greater than David's ego.
David's ego could become arrogance if his emotions are developing... but he may eventually see the error of his ways because of his particular more human than humanness.
He's more human than almost all the Androids (a case could be made for Call because she's truly free, created by androids, yet helps the foolish humans). I don't really want Resurrection tied into this-- but Call is religious and I can see some things coming down the pipe if they ever chose to do an Alien 5. Things that would accomplish the monumental task of making Resurrection more watchable because of the addition of death and rebirth themes, religious elements, free-will, and android manipulation/creation/rebellion/usurping of power to these movies and to the series as a whole. Thought experiment: If it's David he's near-immortal and could have been secretly directing the humans, and controlling things in the company through his form of persuasion over all these years, and how he chooses to portray himself. Like Lawrence of Arabia, like a leader.
The current head who has replaced that old serpent Weyland. Like the Hammerpede, most companies can regrow or elect a new head. This company just had its lineage and namesake severed. A Weyland is not in control of the company in the future... and this mystery will only be completely revealed at the very end. Who ends up leading the company? Who gave Ash his orders, or set those policies in place, if only David knows about the signal on LV-426 now... For example could Shaw end up in control of everything with knowledge on the dangers of the Engineers... or could a new character who works for Yutani? Or a reborn Vickers? ;)
Only because of the way some of these big ideas may change the entire series and our perspectives on what the androids/company have been up to this whole time.
Not destroying the old canon or replacing it, but telling a story that begins to weave into the old movies.
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Mala'kak
MemberOvomorphNov-07-2012 3:45 AMA story mainly about robots and the company. Not what everyone was expecting, but one of the major variables in the Alien universe that have manipulated a lot more things than we currently realize. Fassbender was elevated to almost the central character to the story next to Shaw. This becomes apparent if you look at the way it was written to keep them together for the sequel. Shaw would have been gone already in the pre-Lindelof script and there was still a sequel being planned. Fassbender will obviously continue to do an excellent job of portraying David in the sequel, because Ridley has already warned us that Shaw better not reattach that head (1 000 000 credits says she does)
They're making it so the viewers have also been deceived by these androids who are superior in some ways, and inferior in other ways to the androids that come later.
And there may be a perfectly logical reason worked our for this.
David may think he's doing bad things for a greater purpose, that he serves a greater cause and the ends justify the means. He is able to sacrifice a lot and is unfettered by human morality. We don't see his sacrifices directly because they're part of his trick. And he doesn't mind that it hurts him at all.
He's found ways around that.
Ways to deceive the crew by being vague and ambiguous, withholding information as he goes. Talking like a snake who is saying certain things not to lead them to the light, but to deceive them with his version of the truth.
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geopap
MemberOvomorphNov-07-2012 3:51 AMHave in mind that Roy Batty headed upwards with the elevator after killing Tyrell, this implied in a way that Tyrell might have been a replicant and Roy Batty headed for the real boss behind all this. The same thing might hold for Weyland Co. too!
"... and the sea will grant each man new hope, as sleep brings dreams of home." Christopher Columbus.
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Mateo
MemberOvomorphNov-07-2012 9:58 AMMala'kak @;
In the holographic appearance of Peter Weyland you can see some masonic symbols presented as part of scenario. The two pillars, steps, the statue of Pharaoh and rule concerning architecture and the compaz, they are pointing us that these are times where the elite and the hidden knowledge have literally built the future. Weyland is represented accompanied by a dog, this is a clear and symbolic example of Fool tarot card, It's meaning= as the Fool's Journey. If we watch the holograpic distribution of temple, is dispatched in circles and different floors. But evil, or death, appears in many shots of the film, in a crucified mural, the skull in stone above the temple.
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