THE ENGINEERS DID NOT CREATE MANKIND

interesting ideas bigdave!

i immediately thought of a comment david made about the engineers: "mortal after all"

i think given how advanced technologically the engineers are, I am inclined to say that the xenomorphs are creations of the engineers as oppsed to an indigenous species. why? well i look at it this way: I think the xenomorph in terms of its' (strange) form is almost like the somatic manifestion of some kind of dark bioparametric algorithms. i think the engineers are fallen angels to cut the long story short, who found this 'black goo' and interprted it as being the materialisation of time - which would allow them in their minds to overpower God - making them the lords of time. After many yeats of analysis and experimentation they found what effects it had and analysed the data, extrapolated its' parameters and that led them to rendering the xenomorphs. Now, the xenomorphs to them are God beings in my opinion as they seem to be capable of enduring a possibly eternal model of the universe, thus making them impregnable to any wrath they could possibly face for their misdemeanours. there's still holes in my ideas but that is a general outline.

one final thing it's interesting to try and draw a parallel between  the first alien poster http://www.imdb.com/media/rm191678720/tt0078748?ref_=tt_ov_i and this here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphic_Egg#/media/File:Orphic-egg.png

Interesting to say the least...

There has to be a connection between our Engineers and their Bio-Mechanical Technology and Construction Material / Architecture  and the Xeno and its Construction Material and look.

i.e Xeno Hives and Derelict/Jugernaughts and also the Urns and Mural and Fresco... 

So while the Engineers DNA is shared to a degree with us, their whole Technology as far as Bio-Mechanical Giger Look is connected to the Xeno, we just dont know how/when and why.

Hopefully the next movie will show us that...

I have posted a Topic based on what i said one person had told me thursday night regarding potential plot points....

If this is true or even if not but the movie choses to go for similar route, indeed there could be a connection to the Goo and Xeno and how it is connected to all creation...

So the ideas you have do sit kind of with those... if thats what is happening we shall see..

But the franchise does look like taking a step away from how the Engineers was portrayed during production of Prometheus...  So no representation of say the old Gods i.e Greek and the creation of Mankind just as those ancient cultures believed and then intended destruction because we disfavoured them.

THANATOS_CONTAGION - I am intrigued by your assertions. If there is one thing in which I have found the most enigmatic qualities with relation to Prometheus' mythology, it is the connection between humans, engineers and the strange life-forms often named xenomorphs. This girl has boggled her mind for quite some time in an effort to make connections! However, my boggling has not been without some possible headway. Taking a small step back, I have sometimes wondered (and this is nothing more than fanciful conjecture) if the xenomorph predates the human and engineer species. Is it possible that the Alien is actually the genetic ancestor of our race and those that presumed to destroy us? Perhaps it is that the engineers somehow became aware of the fact that the xenomorph is actually the "dominant" genetic expression of the galaxy and - in their hubris - deigned to control it out of some misguided desire to leash what they viewed as a deific power. I know that sounds rather far-fetched, and I would be the first to agree that it is; however, I believe that the possibility holds some potential. Even so, this is a most engaging conversation! :)

ok so i can't fully reply to both of you now but i can tomorrow until then - i guess all i can say about the black goo is think of it as liquid dark energy/matter.

Well Something Real

I have studied and looked at and tried to make sense of the puzzle that is Prometheus but it has missing peices, but when i tried to fill those gaps in by cross referencing the evolution of Spaights to Lindelofs drafts i had come to some conclusions, well using that helped concrete my conclusions...

I wont go into detail again, but if you check many Black Goo subjects then you would find out my theory etc..

However and indeed it could be they are going for a route that is more similar to your idea so its not far fetched and also THANATOS_CONTAGION their ideas could also be closer to the path they are taking as opposed to those that the movie and certainly concept work and shooting draft would have showed us.

THANATOS_CONTAGION - I look forward to the continuance of this exchange! :)

BIGDAVE - I have given your Black Goo hypothesis a good look and, I must say, it was quite fascinating! Your ideas are extremely well-developed and fun to consider! :)

Just looking at what we see logically on screen and trying to fit it all in together... once you look at the concept work and alternative Fifields that never got used, it seems they was working on a Animatronic Fifeld when they was starting to shoot Prometheus but this was canned, they got Sean Harris to perform the scene and then CGI overlay the alternative Fifield but then Ridley prefered the work Sean Harris did...

Once we look at the other concept ideas, and take into account the Spaights Sacrifical Bowl and Urns have same purpose, just Goo vs Nano Scarabs.. then the connection is simple.

This is not however the way they are going, not by a long shot...

Another thing that well my theory had problems with is well the Eye Worm of Holloway... i have a few theories on that, but each has a hole in it... that being each asks... how come we saw just that one Eye worm?

Then the other theory well one of those is that actually either

1) The Goo is not Goo, now not being rude.. but Seamen aka Sperm looks like a Goo dont it, a slime, but its not its made up of Millions of Sperm Cells, like 200 Million and they are microscopic....  Could the Goo contain microscopic Worm thingys... that basically function the same as Spaights Nano Scarabs?

2) or the contents of the vials in the ampoules contain such microworms that are genetically related to the Xeno somehow?

Who knows its a bit odd, and one element that kind of does not fit perfectly.... the only other theories was the Eye Worm is a evolved Sperm that got lose into his Eye and this would assume he may have many more inside him?  Or if not evolved sperm, or even a worm like organism that the Goo contains, then maybe the Goo either evolved some other cells in his body... or maybe he was carrying a Parasite, that the goo evolved?

Maybe i should re-do my Black Goo theory that i concluded in a VS the Fox version in the released Weyland Fact File... and then pick holes in mine and that one... and you do find the Fox one, makes no sense in some areas.... just as much a kinda full of holes as other elements to Prometheus had.

BIGDAVE - Hmm...your proposals are quite interesting! You have definately given me quite a bit to consider! :)

it'd be interesting if we could see sex, as it was used by Giger in his art, and in Alien (especially when you can hear what the Xeno is doing to Veronica Cartright right before she gets it), linked to the Engineers' creation of man- i.e goo, sperm, etc. without it being silly

OP

no i dont think you are rude and theres nothing wrong with being overbearing. you give plausable and reasonably explanations for your theories. 

from spaights original alien engineers draft the engineers visited earth every 1100 years and upgraded the humans.

that was watts (the character on whom shaw is based from the alien engineers draft) that did the research. 

at the weyland industries website you can find an entry for doctor shaws historical findings called project genesis and there is a viral video where she explains to weyland that she found something. 

actually that is wrong she says that she believes that there is a place that could answer all the big questions. not that she actually found something.

 http://www.projectprometheus.com

 at the above link you will find a link to dr shaws historical findings its called project genesis.

http://www.projectprometheus.com/genesis/

when you click on it nothing happens i know.

but now you have watts in the spaights draft findin evidence that the engineers upgraded mankind every 1100 years. weyland hijacked that information long before they spoke to weyland.

so lindelof rewrote the whole thing but dr shaw says in the quiet eye video that she still believes not scientifically but that she has found the answer. she never actually says she has proof (she never actua;y says she doesnt) but looking at the spaihts draft and the weyland industries website suggests that she had historical findings but what they were is not known.

this does point to perhaps the engineers visiting us and upgrading us over time but why would they do that if they did not create us ??

"this does point to perhaps the engineers visiting us and upgrading us over time but why would they do that if they did not create us ??"

hey oduodu, just going to answer this point real quickly, been real busy and haven't had the chance to respond to the others either so apologies for that as well but to answer your question:

fattening us up in terms of a particular line of knowledge so as to accept their way of thinking, which is but a misguided worshipping of death, or, as we call it in the ridley scott universe, the xenomorph. the xenomorph is death, it is the bodily representation of the death drive which swirls in the unconscious like a viscous black liquid ;). how we come to understand and interpret such a drive is the difference between humans and engineers. the engineers have far too much pride in themselves. they think they have all the answers and understanding, but the very obvious worshipping of the xenomorph, to me at least, shows that they do not.

when do you think they discovered us ??

i would say they probably discovered us around the time those cave paintings started popping up. another thing about DAVID. weyland is depicted early on in the film in a stance with his dog talking asa hologram. That image is almost identical to the tarot card of THE FOOL. what is missing is the bag of the fool, whcih in the tarot card is not opened - it represents unending potential and the fact that the fool has everything that he needs should he just open his bag. There is no bag with weyland, but there is DAVID. david is the unopened bag to peter weyland's fool stance. DAVID could have offered weyland immortality had he just not gone on and on about all that ambiguous soul/human/robot stuff.

THANATOS_CONTAGION - Oh, I very much like your tarot card analogy! Could there have been more such symbology within the film; perhaps the pyramids indicative of the Tower card? This is most compelling! :)

The Geneis part of that site would have been and im not sure if it was but is now broken? but worked before?

Anyway it would have been similar to the speach Holoway and Shaw did, i am sure one part of the website where it showed you all of those pictograms, but i have not been through everything on that site in a long long long time... well say 2 years plus ;)

THANATOS

Yes the Xeno could mean Death but it could mean other things and due to the Ambiguity we really dont have enough clues to make a 100% answer so we can all come to different conclusion, but which one is correct.... who knows.  hopefully Part 2 and indeed Alien 5 could point us in the right direction.

As far as the Engineers not creating us..... i think the whole purpose of the movie and both Spaights and Lindeloffs was that the Engineers interaction with Earth led to our creation and why they was trying to show a match in DNA.

Your idea is interesting mind, and they could be doing a U-Turn on what Originally they was going to portay our Engineers and Mankind connection so who knows...

I thinking how that DNA fits in with it all in another manner? Unless it can show us that we all share same DNA from a single original source of life..... so maybe our Engineers came across and stole this at a later date?

We cant be sure, the Sacrifical Scene could be any place at any time, but i do think Ridleys intentions was that we look Humanoid like the Engineers because they plaid some part in our genetic manipulation that had to include the use of their DNA.

Nice ideas mind ;)

Which way they are going only time will tell..

Interesting topic. I'll put my 2c in... I will be really pissed if time travel has anything to do with any of the Xeno films.

I stand by my thoughts that the DNA infusion we see at the start of Prometheus is the spark of life a suitable planet needs to create life and or simply alter life. Perhaps it was another planet we saw at the start of Prometheus or perhaps its Early Earth. How early we can only guess. Perhaps it is Earth 50 thousand years ago and Life was already present or perhaps its Billions of years ago and Earth is barron. I prefer to think its only thousands of years ago and the DNA strains created by the sacrifice alter anything they make contact with and early Man gradually becomes the superior species. Over the ages the Engineers visit and leave messages as we know. I doubt very much it's so they can then kill them off once their tech is good enough. I suspect, and have done since the start, that the Engineers are simply cloned meat bags which are used by another race. Some of these clones perhaps aren't happy with their lot and visit the natives who leave messages in the hope that one day one of their creations will visit. Don't forget the map wasn't to the Home World it was simply to an out post.

It is this outpost inwhich something big went down. Perhaps the renegades who broke the rules and met early Man who left the messages were found out. Perhaps they were punished, perhaps the one surviver caused the punishment and was under instructions not to associate with other sentient Life and that is why he tries to kill everyone.

The pilot of the Derilict, whether a good or bad guy managed to escape the carnage and the rest is history.

Right or wrong this ties thing up nicely and leads a believable timeline right through to Alien 5.

Just my thoughts anyway. Keep it simple, keep it Giger, keep it creepy and dark.

bigdave: for me xenomorphs are the gatekeepers of the underworld - the para - site, the space/place which exists parallel to our reality .for me the underworld in greek mythology is the psychic object of the unconscious, obscure, yet immanent, always threatening to undo immediate reality. it is here whereby i would invoke freud's theorys on todestrieb, the death drive, which is the will towards annihilation. indeed i feel like the workings of the human unconscious are ever present in the works of giger and the alien universe. the engineers in my mind are fallen. they were a race bestowed with many gifts and failed to appreciate them, they wanted to become Gods, but real Gods are not only creators of things and life IN the universe, they are creators OF the universe as well. Real Gods are able to both transcend and exist within the universe.

brego

QUESTION: having read the spaights script, the part where the team meets the lone surviving engineer, if i remember correctly, the engineer says that "now you have awokened me i will die" or words to that effect. my question to you is, do you think there is a possibility that that last engineer had been facehugged and gone into cryostasis so as to not give birth to an ultramoprh? in which case, the deacon could have extra parameters to it?

also brego, it's exactly because the invitation was to the outpost and not to the homeworld that it makes me think that the engineers did not create mankind, as the invitation to that outpost makes me think that it was nothing more than a trap to annihilate humans, which is why it makes me question them creating us, for exactly the same reason you mentioned: why would you create a species and then simply destroy it when it progressed? my only logical explanation to that is because you didn't create it, but someone else, who you are at war with did.

bigdave

i have searched extensively and was never able to find anything. i dont think there ever was anything there in the first place. i think 10-11-12 is when weyland and yutani merged. 

october 11 2112

I did remember seeing on one of the sites the Pictograms, they appeared like in the Holloway and Shaw Speach to the Prometheus Crew, and you clicked on one and it showed the date it was discoverd etc....

As far as to the Agenda and Deal with Engineers, there really is any posibility as the movies clues are so vague and Ambigious, some theories i kind of feel the movie may show us against as it makes little sense.... those being we was created to be destroyed, when their is more than enough evidence that some Engineers or other Giant beings had came to Earth to upgrade us over and over.... i think the movie aimed to show a connection Genetically and why our Engineers looked very Humanoid was not just coincidence.

How did David learnt to communicate with the Engineers and maybe read their writting etc... David for how clever he is, he is not no Star Trek Universal Translator....  the movie showed him learning some ancient PIE linguistics, is this just coincidence?  I doubt it,  this Ancient Language was used by early Man,  and its not a coincidence that our Engineers use the same thing of can understand it... The only way the Engineers knew it would be if they learnt it off early Man or indeed they taught it to early Man.

The Prometheus Myth is no accident i believe, it indicates that some God like beings, or a race who we would perseve as such had came down and taught us stuff and given us technology that we was forbiden to had been given.

The Ancient Pictograms are there to show us that throughout many Ancient Cultures, Mankind had been visited by a Giant Biengs from the Stars who Mankind had worshiped and perseved as Gods, and these beings/Gods had given us information to futher advance our culture.

Do they spend thousands of years doing that so we can then be used to be replaced by Xenos?   Is really how advanced Mankind is or was 2'000 years ago, going to make a difference compared to 5'000, 10'000 etc?  And all we see the Goo do is simply evolve them into beings that seem to become Agressive and Hostile (Fifield) and maybe they would be mutated to become eventually nothing as the Weyland file says after 6 months a Worlds Life is eradicated... Fire and Stone shows us the Goo simply evolves life including plant life to take on traits that could be connected to the Xeno, but it basically regardless just re-encodes life to be something new.

We have to ask why?  what is there to gain from that apart from Spite and a case of a kid playing with his Lego and building something, that he is then bored, fed up with or does not like and so he breaks it apart so that he can create something new.

There is so so much going on in this movie, that can lead to a unlimited near enough explanations and reasons....  And yes Shaw thought the clues would lead her to the place of our creation.

I think maybe LV 223 was at one point this, but it is not the place these Engineers come from.... it could be like in Biblical Terms the Garden of Eden that we got kicked out of, and so it is not Heaven or Paradise.

The movie shows us our Engineers are genetic Gardners, we do not know the Agenda for why they created life, the opening Scene is to show how they create and seed life and so Earth is not the only place...  We are but a Garden these Engineers use to create a host of different Genetic Flowers, and Crop as far as Life on Earth being that....  LV 223 could just be a Green house from which they experiment with changes they wish to make to their Garden it is a place they can use as a outpost to visit us from.

But at some point something changed, or did it? was the Agenda always create the Xeno, we just dont know yet the 100% connection between it and Engineers and the when/how and why.

If we take Ridleys comments here is what he is saying.. well was prior to the now U-Turn... at the point of working on Lindeloffs draft and that to a shooting draft here is what Ridley had our Engineers down as...

1) A Ancient Alien Humanoid Race, who poses Advanced Technology, these Engineers are Genetic Engineers and they take part in creating life throughout the Galaxy.

2) They had came back to us over thousands of years, evolving Mankind not only Technologically but Genetically.

3) At some point and for some reason, we fell out of favor with the Engineers, we was a failed experiement in regards to how they had hopped we would have turned out.

4) And so they decided to eraticate us and replace us withing something Else....

Why we just dont know, the Goo in Prometheus has Xeno traits, as opposed to what we see in the start of the movie.... maybe they found some other Organism or some event from a Organism that had produced a Organism that they found was more Prefect to them..  This Organisms DNA was then something they wanted to use to upgrade us.

Why who knows....

But thats my take on it, i think that the Engineers saw a result of a first Deacon or something that led to a first Chest Buster and the result was a Organism that had part Xeno DNA and Part Engineers.  And they futher experimented on that DNA as opposed to their own DNA

The Engineers on LV 223 then saw this new Xeno/Engineer DNA as the better basis to seed and evolve life as opposed to pure Engineer DNA... they worshiped the Deacon as pure and perfect creation.