I think a lot of the Problems Thoughts_Dreams is the way Lindeloff writes his dialog for Characters and how he gives them Personality and i think in Prometheus it was not done to well, if you read how similar Characters where written in Spaights draft you can see a big difference.

The Characters were a bit to Korny?  But Alass JJ Abrahams is the same... Star Wars FA had to much Goofy and Korny moments for my liking and his Star Trek Movies too.

However to be fair the Drafts had better way of covering those Characters, i sugest you read them and you will find that beneath and between the two their was a movie that could have been so much better....

These Pair (Milburn and Fifield) both thought the other had the Map.....   Then a High as a Kite Fifield Picks the Hammerpede up to tease Milburn with it...  thats when things get out of control.

But overall yes maybe it could have been better written.... they could have been shocked at the Hammerpede... Milburn goes in for closer look, and then slips in the Goo and the Hamerpede then goes towards him and he grabs it to stop it getting close to him... as opposed to grab it to Pet the thing. LOL

If you looked at the Other Fifield Concepts then you would see that some of them were very good, they was not used however as the Animatronic Prop was just taking to much time and costs, and also it and other concepts were not used because they wanted to TONE DOWN the Xeno Elements....

BigDave:

I haven't watched too much of Lindeloff's things so I can not comment on it. I have however read the Spaights script and the characters were a lot better developed there. You could see their motivations, you could understand them better, and so on. A movie based on the Spaights script would have been a lot better I think because the characters were better explained but they would probably have kept it open to lead into a sequel if they would like to do that.

The Force Awakens had some silly moments also but for me the good out-weighted the bad by a long shot so I could accept that. P1 could have been so much better, I read at a blog or what ever that (and this comes from my memory so don't take it literally) that one of the reasons that Prometheus was frustrating was that with all its faults you could see some smart things behind the surface which makes its misses more frustrating because it really had potential. I sort of agree with this criticism because it is correct to an extent.

Your idea of the Milburn situation with the Hammerpeded is better than what was in the movie, no doubt. Fifled and the Xeno elements, they had an animated Xeno Fifled which was a lot better than what we got it is just too bad that they didn't use it but I think that I understand why they did what they did but to me it was like "well that's too bad". This is not to say that the Zombie Fifield was useless though.

*Alien Covenant is casting extras aged between 8-40 who are either Very Small and Thin, or Very Tall and Thin but who also have to be very Strong and Athletic and skilled as Acrobats, Contortionists and the like.

The emphasis mainly being on Thin, Strong and very Agile/Flexible, and casting seems to indicate maybe they are not looking for just one particular person to play such a role, as they said Extras....  which could indicate they need someone who is very thin so they can wear a Prosthetic Suit, and be strong enough to be able to move quite quickly, agile and a to high degree of articulation.  This sounds more like the requirements for wearing a more modern version of the Xenomorph Suit as worn in Alien and Aliens.   It could also point to there being more than One Xenomorph or related Organism in the next Movie.

*Noomi Rapace (Dr Shaw) will not be apearing in the next movie.

This now fits in with the Synopsis for the movie, but a big puzzle is how she has gone from a minor role to now not even getting a apearence....   Ridley did say in the same Interview that he is casting some major roles but Shaw will not be one of those and will not appear.

Prometheus set off two possible endings... 

1) To go and explore the Adventures of Shaw and David as they head to Paradise the Place the Engineers are from, for answers to why did they create Mankind, only to then create and test such Horrific Experiments on LV-223 that were intended to destroy Mankind.

2) Find out what becomes of LV-223 after the events of Prometheus and Prior to Alien, as LV-223 has a lot of Secrets yet to be uncovered, it has more Engineer Temples and Ships and so what other horrors do these hold?  And what becomes of the horrors unleashed from the Crew of Prometheus misfortune of comming to a place they should never had.

So its now odd that Alien: Covenant is stepping away from either of those.....  we definately see David 8 from Prometheus, the Synopsis confirms this and that he is the only survivor of that Doomed Mission, when we all know Shaw and David surived together and they set off to the Place the Engineer said he came from... and we have to assume David could not make this journey without Shaws Help, and indeed prior to Alien: Covenant the situation and dynamic between David and Dr Shaw and how he would eventually have to be put back together by Shaw, seemed to play one of the major Flash Points for the intended Sequel... along with finding Engineers and discovering the Answers Shaw gets are not what she had hoped for.

But with Engineers and Shaw not included in the Synopsis and knowing Shaw is a Casuality of the Casting and wont apear.... will we ever know what became of Shaw from when David left LV-223 10 years prior and what condition did David find this Paradise in when he arrived...  will we find out these in the next movie after Alien: Covenant?

Or are they going to pull a Lost on us in Homage to Lindeloff?

If Shaw will not be in it then I hope that they will give a good explanation to that being that she had an important role in Prometheus. How would David get to Paradise without Shaw's help and how will they explain that? Will they have Shaw's diseased body there to explain it in some way but how can they do that if Noomi isn't in it? This doesn't make sense to me but I hope that they will come up with some clever explanation. Please no Lost tactics, that would be lame.

Yes thats a shame, but we cant rule her out of being in the movie or franchise as Chris Posted a Interview with her and she seemed very coy and even smirking when asked about Prometheus sequel....

I have updated speculation and scenerios for what this could mean here... Alien Covenant loses Shaw

It seems like a throw away and i have covered it in detail in the above Topic....  but the premise for the next movie was to follow Shaw and David... it would be lazy or lame to have them completely write her out of the Franchise, like Newt and Hicks because more so, there is a lot to cover from when Shaw puts Davids head into that Bag, and takes his body on that Buggy to find the other Engineer ship... which we see departs LV-223.

Ridley even commented on the dynamic between them and how She does put him back together eventually but she was unsure but David is very persuasive.

But we did not see David put back together in Prometheus but we did see a Engineer Juggernaught leave LV-223 which we have to assume is the ship that David at very least is onboard....  

We have to assume David needs Shaw to put him back together and while its ok maybe if we skip this part, as this part would have fitted between the Scene of Shaw leaving the Juggernaught with Davids Body and Head and seeing another Juggernaught setting off from LV-223.

The movie was set up for her journey and questions, yet Alien: Covenant we have no Shaw in the Synopsis... so what happened... surely they cant use this as a mystrey and with less answers to this as how a Xenomorph got onboard the Sulaco after Aliens to infect Ripley in Alien 3 never mind the Dog/Cow.

Also its a wasted chance if they go with David arriving at Paradise to find not a trace of the Engineers but only the remains of a Bio-Weapon that is Evolving on Paradise...

So yes Alien: Covenant is going against what Ridley had sugested all along prior to the Name Change...   Which seemed to fit in with what a source had told me about in March 2015.   With regards to Shaw they said Shaw does not Technically Die... 

I have had some more information from the source today but not much.. which i will update my Topic on it.

Big Dave: I am not really a fan of the Shaw character, she lacks something but at the same time she had a big role in Prometheus so I hope that they won't get rid of her just like that. What I mean is that they can keep her but let her play a smaller role but at the same time she wants to get her answers so she will probably have some sort of importance to the story otherwise it won't make sense, no?

When they left LV-223 with the ship I thought that at least David gave her the instructions how to fly it (if she didn't have put him together already) so he has some sort of importnce there. My first thought when I saw them leave LV-223 was "how can she leave with David having no head?" but then I thought that that was a possible answer because David said that he could navigate them and I doubt that Shaw is much of a pilot.

I think that they should let Paradise have a bigger role than that. I sort of understand why they could do that being that Ridley said that Paradise could be nasty but still. Paradise has a potential of being an interesting place so I hope that they do something as far as how it looks rather than just having it be a junk yard or something similar. To me it could be a very interesting place because Paradse could mean different things to many people. The Engineers should be present there in some way but then those at Fox might wonder how much of the Engineers there should be in the movie depending on how people considered P1 to be.

Yes i think also there was a role for Shaw, even if she is killed off i thought they would at least carry on the Dynamic Between them, the first movie left us with a Mexican Stand off as David can not be of any use in the way he was found.... thats why he asked Shaw to help him and Shaw wont be going no place without Davids Help, apart from sit it out and wait for Help, in which time she may not survive by the time Help arrives.

Ridley made some contradictory remarks about David and Shaw, he mentioned that he needs her and she needs him in order to get off that rock... and Shaw has her reservations but she has no alternative and Ridley said David can be very persuasive.    But then in a latter Interview he says EVENTUALLY She will put him back together, and then after that she will SLOWLY put him back together...

so we have to assume Shaw did not need a Full David to leave LV-223 maybe David could talk her through how to activate the ships Navigation and Cryo-Sleep?   In  a earlier Interview Ridley teased that while Shaw may want to go to Paradise, once Davids head is on he can be very dangerous and Shaw is basically left to what ever wishes David has...

So he could indeed put Shaw in Cryo-Sleep and then go where ever he wants...

I would have thought they would have covered some dynamic about the two on their journey and then maybe as Shaw starts to trust David, he could then stab her in the back and have her become a Pawn in his Agenda much like Holloway was.... but it would be disapointing to see her not even used.

And also yes Engineers, they played to me a Bigger role in the Franchise... they are potentially now the Biggest thing in the Franchise or their Creators are... the Xenomorph was merely a Weapon to destroy Mankind and so both were created by the Engineers and so i think they have to cover the Engineers at some point.

Back to the Topic of Alien Covenant... yes Paradise may not be the Paradise we all think it could be, but why would the Last Engineer say its a place we may call Paradise... when Mankind through various cultures would perseve Paradise as a Place of Wonder a true Paradise that Creation Started and in other cultures that the Gods came from.

Paradise Ridley is hinted at is a Dark and Dangerous World and nothing like what we Humans would ever dream Paradise could be.... but he also added its a scene of a Disaster...

I think the Shooting Locations when added up with Micheal Biehns comments of Alien: Covenant being set thousands of years before Aliens, to me still gives us a hint we may see a Paradise before some Disaster that has left the place a Dark and Dangerous World.

Great posts BigDave. I became member in order to thank you for tons of good stuff from you and because I wanted to be in touch with happenings around Alien Covenant which is the movie I anxiously await to see (I m a huge fan of original Alien; and Prometheus despite its flaws).

I also wanted to share with you those several fabulous articles that I found, about Prometheus and some really interesting ideas about movie and its sequel. It seems to me that he (author) almost understood everything, and his ideas have possible plot elements for the Alien Covenant ;)

Here are the articles:
Prometheus: 6 Answers To The Key Questions - In this article he thoroughly examines the whole plot of Prometheus and some ideas of what might come in Covenant...

This next is also very good
Prometheus: 8 Mythological & Literary Motifs In The Film - Here he writes about mythological background of the movie and  examines the stories of Prometheus and his relation to Zeus, then he explaines the connection of the film with myth of Epimetheus & Pandora, it is interesting that this article is published back in 2012. but author also thoroughly writes and examines the relation of John Miltons Paradise Lost and its connection with the movie and the possible (back then) sequel; he also mentions The Book of Enoch (which is very interesting), and then makes some refference to Norse and mesopotamian mythology and he explains Christian influence of the movie backstory as well as influence of William Blakes art.

And another article from the same author:
Prometheus: 8 Key Themes In Understanding The Film

I was always interested in scene with wall relief (mural) with Xenomorph like creature in crucifix position and with altar in front of that mural that holds green crystal. To me the crystal is interesting thing because it reminds me to amber... ;) In trailer of the movie, there was a sacrificial cup from the first scene of the movie, but not the crystal... strange?

I also think that the black goo (used in sacrificial scene) is some kind of forbidden fruit, the element of creation that some group of Engineers then used for different purposes and made some kind of bio weapon from it (Sacrificial fluid isnt the same as black goo??). Maybe the original goo is the extract from that green crystal in front the Xeno mural (So it maybe comes from the primordial Xeno). I still believe that there are two confronted sides of Engineers... Angels and Fallen Angels. But who is the ultimate Boss, someone third?  Ridley said that those Engeeners with bio suits made black goo (bio weapon version from the vases) to defend themselves from someone? From who? Maybe the "First Xenomorph" have something to do with it. Why would Engeeners worship their own creation (Xeno on mural), why they made that mural? Is that the worship fresco or there is some other purpose to it. Who created the Engeeners? ;)  I also believe that Shaws (Noomi Rapace) story would still play a big part of the next movies, maybe not so big but it will have certain significance (no matter she is not in the movie... thats is still not for sure and maybe she will be in the next one... we still don't know everything). Ridley said that he wont work with her in Australia, maybe he will work on some other place ;) David is certanly the major player, so we ll se what story they have for him... Deacon looked to me organic, but ultimate Xeno from original Alien had some mechanical note to it... Biomechanical creature. Maybe David is ultimate link... Maybe enegeeners (Fallen group) represent the first Prometheus, maybe they stole somthing from their creator (maybe they even tried to "vassalize" the "God"), and wanted to be creators and gods themselves but then happend something... What reasons and motivations led those Fallen Eneeners to try to bring black goo to Earth? (Why all those carvings and artefact on Earth shows tall figure pointing to LV-223 that happens to be military outpost for mass destruction?) Maybe they were afraid that humanity could bacame threat as they themselves were corrupted...??? But then again David sentence: Sometime to create, one must first destroy contradict my thesis... They created something, and they want to destroy that to create something totaly different? That is not so logical to me... Murals suggest sthat Xeno already existed, so I think that they didnt want to create Xenos, but then again events in Prometheus led to spontaneous creation od the Deacon...it is too complictated to find out what is the thing behind all of this... There must be some logic to the ultimate story, because Ridley likes to relay on logical storytelling, so we are missing something.

I m still thinking about this, so I inted to read Miltons Paradise Lost :) Maybe there is some answers to questions we ask? I like the premise and story that Ridley used (Miltons epic and all mytholgcal and religious background)  to explain Xenomorphs, but I think that the ultimate story of Xenos will be the ultimate story of human inner existence and fall of human spirt and so the story will be all the more frightening. He certainly wouldnt explain everything... mystery is the main thing revolving Xenos and Engineers. I myself would introduce some concept of ultimate entity that "created" all there is and then I would  show that creation of greatest evil is not deed of that entity but our deed instead. Maybe the Xenos are the material manifestation of human corrupted nature, it after all came from humans. But the concept of Devil also need sto be introduced in all of this. Fallen Engeeners are the Devil presumably... I know that there are many inconsistencies in my ideas, but I plan to figure it out... :) Shaw compared DNAs of Engeeners with human DNA and said: Its US...
I m still trying to connect everything... :(

I hope this was interesting to you as well as it was for me. I impatiently await further interesting analysis, predictions and comments by BigDave and other great members. I wish you all the best! Cheers guys.

I think Ridley would never allow himself to make bad movie at the end of his career... I honestly think that Covenant is going to be a real BOOM.
Movie with right amount of answers and some fresh form of shock and horror. Isnt that what we all want?

Well where do i start with this lot ;)  Welcome aboard!

"I know that there are many inconsistencies in my ideas, but I plan to figure it out... :) Shaw compared DNAs of Engeeners with human DNA and said: Its US...
I m still trying to connect everything... :("

While your post is going off Topic as far as what the Plot of Covenant is taking, your theories and those links which i will read, are touching upon what Prometheus was trying to show us and what Ridleys comments prior to Alien: Covenant was setting us up for...

Also the source that leakes some supposed stuff (take with pinch of salt) pretty much gave information that touches upon most of what you mentioned and i wonder also what those links could be covering.....  I have a Thread on these leaks and it seemed to confirm with what Ridley latter came out with..... but now there seems some U-Turn.

The source does not have information on Covenant, and would not even if they had some.  But they did say all they know is that they felt steering away from the Xeno and Alien, was maybe the wrong move... and so they are instead steering closer to it... but the ideas they was pushing with the Drafts by Paglen and Green are not forgotten and will be added to the Franchise but they are toning them down after they (Fox and Ridley) feel they need to get back to Alien as thats what is holding the Franchise up, its what the Franchise is about.... i.e Space Jockey/Engineers and the Xeno Bio-Weapon and how and why..... which is what Spaights draft was touching upon... but then they (Fox and Ridley) decided to Tone down the Xeno elements and flesh out the Engineers Story to make the Prequel series about the Engineers in which Mankind and the Xeno play a role but they wanted to explore the Engineers more.... 

Well now it seems they feel that maybe they need to head back more to the way Spaights draft was going and to cover the Engineers connection to the Xeno, and have the Engineers Agenda and what ever else they are involved in as the lesser Story....   The source said they are following the Elements and ideas of the Earlier Drafts just they will be toned down and spread over the Franchise and so the Emphasis is more to do with the Engineers and Xeno... where as before they was going to loosely Answer this but explore the Engineers and Hierarchy more.

The Source does not know what % of the ideas before will make it into the newer Trilogy planned but that the Engineers and connections to everything are not going away...  But they cant say that we would see a future set of movies that would be more about them.

So the source thinks pretty much the same as i had thought, that Fox feel maybe when Spaights Draft that had a higher % Xeno connections and was less ambigious was toned down those elements to give just mild Clues but wanted to evolve the Engineers and there role in the Galaxy and beyond....  they now think maybe they need to go back more to the Original idea.   Pretty much as a Alien Prequel... its how the Xeno was made, when and why and how Mankind played into this....  that is more important as far as fitting to the Franchise as opposed to moving futher away from Alien and the Xeno to explore and flesh out the Engineers and their History and Origins....   they was going for the Engineers being the main purpose and explore them.... but now seems this is to be the lesser plot as the Xeno Origins and Space Jockey explantion is now seen as what FANS want to see.

Basically finding out about the Xeno, is more important as far as Box Office than following Engineers and how they fitted into the whole God/Ancient Mankind Mythos.

Sorry got bit sidetracked there....

"I know that there are many inconsistencies in my ideas, but I plan to figure it out... :) Shaw compared DNAs of Engeeners with human DNA and said: Its US...
I m still trying to connect everything... :("

I have a set of theories and have studdied Prometheus in depth, mainly clues on the movie and franchise and other Alien movies and the two drafts Spaights and Lindeloffs....  to try and make some THEORY that works... but even mine have multiple expantions and i could not find the ONE SIZE fits all theory that all matches...

I wont go into detail as i covered them all on this site... and so too much to go through but feel free to PM Me..... i may make a Topc... Ask Dave Prometheus Questions Topic... as i pretty much have looked in depth at it.

You touched upon many themes i have covered and what you have touched upon are not far off what i have concluded.....  But to Answer Each aspect i have 1-2 theories that still conflict with other answers.... i may one day to the Complete Prometheus Answers and Plot... post.

I will say that yes, it seems the Engineers are a Servent Race, and are simply either Angels/Fallen Angels... but could also fall into being the Olympians, or 2nd Generation of Titans... i.e Children of the First Main 12 Titans.  They could also be linked to either the lesser Anunaki or even Iggi Servent Race.  The movie seems to loosely try and fit all these different versions of Gods of Ancient Man into being Interpretations of the Engineers and their Hierarchy

The Mural, and Sacrifcial Cup and alter, again Spaights Draft gives clues if you apply his drafts explanations to Lindeloffs Holes.... and alternative shots and concepts.  Then it would seem the Engineers are used to seed their DNA to create Life..... but something happened that produced the First Deacon (Mural) or Something else that they then tried to re-engineer this to produce the Mural Deacon... that was seen as having Perfect DNA... those Engineers on LV-223 Worshiped this Evolution of their DNA and deemed this would be the basis to Evolve Life and so instead of using their DNA.... the Deacon was now the DNA they favoured..... What creature they produced this from?  Was it the Xeno, or a Ancestor to the Xeno...? Who knows... 

I feel this was a Punishment to the Rebelious Engineers, who then inturn.. engineered this Punishment to create something else to use against their creators or indeed use their creators own Punishment against them....  or it could be their creators Punishment for the Engineers back fired.... killed off their creators.. so the Rebel Engineers chose to then use and re-engineer this intended and failed Punishment for the Engineers, on Mankind and they too failed and had it back fire.  Its hard to figure a concrete idea. but i think these ideas are roughly about right.

The Black Goo in the Urns was re-weaponizing something, or trying to harvest the DNA of something (Deacon Mural) the same way that the Sacrifical Engineer broken down his DNA to seed life on Earth, the Engineers on LV-223 had used the Sacrficial Substance to Seed the DNA of this new Evolution to Engineer DNA (Deacon) the same process the Sacrificial Engineer had used, the Deacon's had done to them.  Only the resulting broken down material was not left to infect the Water and Air of Worlds like the Sacrificial Scene... the resulting DNA etc from a Sacrificed Deacon was collected and stored into the Urns.... to use as a Weapon that would Upgrade/Transcend Mankind...

But there are things that could go against this theory... thats the mess that Prometheus left us with....  The other aspect could be that the Black Goo was what eventually leads to Xenos?

The Fresco that people say is like the Cistine Chapel Adam and God... to me looks more like the Prometheus and his Punishment (Rock, Eagle and Liver) Fresco...   and this fits in with the Prometheus Mythos and my other theories.

I could go on but i have covered these to death before... and i may either do a Thread where people can ask Questions about aspects and i will give my answers... or i may do a Thread where i try to get it all to fit together..

But they had changed things... they made a Weyland Goo File to explain what was going on, Ridley and Lindeloff gave two different takes on the Goo and Deacon at the end etc.. that contradicted each other... and the Weyland File contradicted what we saw.... so its one massive INCOHERENT Story....... that i tried to peice together.

But they may now be simplifying it more....  Basically now could just be that the Engineers where a Race at War, lead by a Older and Wiser First Engineer, who a faction rebelled against and they got involved in a intergalactic War.... where the Xeno was a Bio Weapon created from the Black Goo to be used on Mankind.

So the explanation to the Mural could be... look we are Engineers who created you (Mankind) look at our Head Statue to show you this... and now look at what we created instead (Deacon Mural) that we are now going to replace you Humans with.

Now i will read those links.... i have a feeling they touch upon similar ideas i had posted on here over the years and maybe also be similar to what the Source had sugested as the Plot... as they too sugest the Goo was connected to Forbiden Fruit/Fire that the Engineers played a part in its use, but they was not meant to use it in the way they did.   And so they got burnt.

Prometheus executive producer Michael Ellenberg when he spoke about the movie three years ago and said:

“What if you could meet God but God turned out to be the Devil?”

Ridley on Alien Paradise Lost now Alien Covenant

“Have you ever read Paradise Lost, by Milton? In a funny kind of way, it’s an interesting basis for the darkness of [Prometheus 2]. Where the good-looking guy, who is evil as shit (Satan), gets all the girls and goes to the nightclubs (Ridley is referring to the fact that Satan story is the main part of Milton's epic). The other guy, who is not quite as good-looking (so God is not good loking???), is boring as hell and stays home. So in a funny kind of way, we used that as the basis for it, it’ll be Alien: Paradise Lost (now Covenant). Which is very spooky...

Milton’s Satan is readily comparable to the heroes of the classical epics:

He is a variant of Achilles, who equates honor with his own status . . . and feels slighted by hiscommander-in-chief, refuses his orders and believes himself superior. Both epics turn on the connection between ‘a sense of injur’d merit’ and the hero’s wrath. He is Odysseus and Jason on their heroic voyages, leader and chief warrior in battle during and after the War in Heaven, and through it all the most powerful speaker, able to rally and organize his troops with the eloquence of his appeals to their own heroic values. (Forsyth 30)

Further complicating matters, Milton’s Satan contains elements of the hero in classical tragedy. Satan’s fatal flaw is a fundamental lack of self-knowledge; he has no ability to recognize his own limitations. He never seems to realize that he can never win in a contest between the Creator and the created being. This characteristic is readily recognizable as hubris— overweening self-confidence and pride. The tragic theme of “those whom the gods would destroy, they first raise up” is also present, albeit imperfectly. Satan goes from “reign[ing] in Hell” in Book I to his final appearance in Book X where he is transformed into a “monstrous Serpent” by the power of God reaching into Hell. Milton’s Satan fails as a tragic hero in that “[h]is character does not degenerate; it is degraded”

As we can read from what Ridley said, he plans to show all: The God, The Devil, the monster and how all that is related to humans... It is bloody intriguing... I have many twisted ideas but I m sure that Ridley invented one more stranger than mine... :)

He said that devil looks good and that God looks kind a strange and is not so handsome... that brings us to those murals and egg that symbolizes creation of life (You said that that kneeling figure is possibly their Eagle or punishment, but what if that is their creator, the "ultimate God"?)... :))) I would certanly love to see what those murals, crystal, goo and all that we saw mean in the whole story... I see David as ultimate factor that will unleashing the evil... (thats only my take on Davids part in the story). 

 

P.S. I just read your two new posts, and as someone said you really know what you re writing! Your ideas are very good, glad we have you :)

I wont write more stuff that are just my mere predictions because as you said, all of that is already covered and discussed. I shall wait for new official stuff and info and than I will speak about that... I wish you all the best.

Yes interesting things you bring up, and this seemed where Prometheus 2 was going... i sugest you check out the Topic i made about supposed leaks... because these came before Ridley mentioned a lot of stuff about Paradise Lost and so Ridleys comments added up to what i was told..

But we have to now be prepared for maybe a complete change, a U-Turn but while Alien Covenant seems to show this, the source claims  while they dont know the re-writes to make Covenant, they did say ideas from the other drafts will apear in the Franchise but in a more tonned down way....  they mentioned like how Spaights was tonned down to make Lindeloffs. and that a similar changes are what seem to happen  changes as in   going back to what Spaights draft was covering rather than the going away and tone down of it in Lindeloffs.

so right now we cant read to much into the Devil Connection... it could be completely tonned down or even thrown out.... but these was the ideas Originally but we have to remember they are not Literally going for the Devil.... or Fallen Angels, but losely connecting such thinks...  and also with other Mythos...

So we could see (well was going to) a story of Rebelion and Creation where Satan/Prometheus and Enki are linked, the common themes to those to be delivered in way that fits with the Engineers Take on it all......  Depending how you look at Satan, Prometheus and Enki.... they all are EVIL in a way that is not EVIL but in a way that they are AGAINST the Ideas and Will of God... or the Leader of the Hierarchy.... indeed if you Study the Bible, and apply it to Paradise Lost.... then in a way Lucifer has not commited any Sin really..... he has only done what Prometheus did against first Cronus and then Zeus.

The better to Rule in Hell, than Serve in Heaven is key to this.... the Character who is the Devil simply disagrees with the Rule and Tyrany of God, and wishes to open the minds of free will to those who serve under Gods Tyranical Rule.

As far as David, yes i think he would be the one who Unleashes Hell

Of course that all of these are just a themes to form the story. I remember when Ridley said that he intend to introduce "someone new" in the third act of the Covenant, who might that be? Maybe he will really show that battle and chain of events (which include humans and their creation and SIN as metaphorical element) that led to creation of Xeno... We saw that Ridley is casting possible Engineers (guy from Game of Thrones and other tall and agile actors)... How will he introduce Engeeners in Paradise which is desolate and barren scenery???  I also believe that now when John Logan rewrote the story, we'll have really intriguing premise and complete story that ties to original Alien. I agree with yours remarks about Satan in Milton's work, but why Ridley said that there is marginalized good guy who is bad looking and bad guy who is handsome and have all the girls? What the hell that means? So we have engeeners, deacon on mural (and real one), goo and crystal or that sacrificial fluid, creature that holds the egg, humans and their creation... All those must be the elements of the final story that will lead to original Alien... They cannot disregard all that elements they introduced!

Thats from me for now... I will regularly
read your excellent posts, Dave.
Cheers!

Ok i have read those posts and what a great insight the poster had.. i have never came across these before and its interesting that this person has somewhat concluded the same as myself. I have over the last 3+ Years contributed heavily to this Site, and covered many aspects of Prometheus that indeed my interpretations almost mirror that of the author of those links you posted (Benjamin Taylor).

My theories have some slight differences and are way in more depth....   the main difference is the Black Goo,  i was comming to conclude it could have been made from the Xeno or a related Organism, and yes the Norse Mythology fitted with this... (Eitr) but i chose to mainly use my theories based on Biblical/Koran themes, Greek Mythos and Annunaki Gods.... i had looked loosely at Indian and Mayan Mythos and Norse too and one theory i had did connect the Etir/Black Goo connection.... but then i felt as Prometheus touched more upon the Bible/Greek and Sumarian Mythos....  the Forbiden Fruit idea and Fire took more of a interest..

One Theory mirrored that of the Black Goo being from some Creature related to the Xeno... but then the differences from the effects of the Black Goo in the movie... made me think about it in a different way and to look at what we are shown... i then had the theory that the Substances are different and the Black Goo in the Urns are a result of some creature being broken down for its DNA in the same way the Sacrificial Engineer did.... this also fitted with the Sacrifical Pose of the Deacon in the Mural and so this 2nd theory was one i leaned towards. And looking at the unused Prometheus Concepts... Fifield and other clues it made perfect sense... then the other Scene where we had the Sacrifical Bowl... this led me to side with this other theory as opposed to another that matches what Benjamin had...

Upon reading Spaights draft and how the Nano Scarabs worked and basically looking that the Goo in Prometheus was a way of evolving the concept Spaights started.. replacing Nano Scarabs with a Mutagen.   When i looked how Spaights Scarabs worked, and his description for the Sacrificial Scene, and Fifield Mutation and then looked at the alternative Fifields and the Mural and how the Goo works... then BINGO..... My theory i sided with as far as the Black Goo in the Urns being created from something similar to the Sacrificial Scene made Perfect Sense.... and this is what i then used to base and connect other things in Prometheus too.

Thanks ;)

Yes, it seems a shame to throw away all these things... if you read what Benjamin Taylor was getting at as far as July 2012.... then look at Ridleys comments on the subject then they are teasing at something FAR BIGGER... than the Xenomorph Bio Weapon... Ridley kept saying the Xeno was merely a Weapon, his stance changed a bit with Prometheus slightly.... but then afterwards he went back to the Xeno being a Weapon created from Evil Biology....

So the Xeno was a smaller part of the whole PLOT, Mankind a Larger Part.... and the Engineers and their Rebelion and inner conflict between each other or their creators was the LARGER part of the Plot they seemed to be going.....

Its a shame if all of this is now being toned down.... Spaights draft touched upon Xeno related DNA and what it was for more than the Engineers Agenda... maybe Spaights Sequel would have explored the Engineers more and maybe lesser the Xeno....     They changed the Xeno elements and expanded the Engineers with Lindeloffs Draft and Prometheus and it seemed the sequel would follow the Engineers in more detail and step futher from the Xeno...

But a change of plan has happened, and it now seems they are expanding the Xeno link more and going away from the Engineers and who they are....

So yes the coments you make about Ridleys comments such as "Good guy who is bad looking and bad guy who is handsome and have all the girls"

These are what with more detailed ones released around the same time (ponder who the Big Guy is and how Worlds arr created not by accident) these comments all added up to theories i had a bit and those of Benjamin Taylor... but they also matched what a source had leaked to me about Paradise Lost Script...  

But then after the Alien: Covenant change from Alien: Paradise Lost... Ridleys comments now seem to be a U-Turn to what was said prior...  so will these themes be explored as far as the Engineers and Paradise Lost and Greek Mythology connections etc?   I hope so, i hope they dont throw them out!

"Good guy who is bad looking and bad guy who is handsome and have all the girls"

Ridley made a comment similar to that where he said that if you read Paradise Lost, it the Fallen Angels who have the most fun in that tale, and its the more interesting tale...  so this goes with his Fallen Angels comment that he has made a number of times in the past.

I think its that the Gods, created the Angels as Perfection, then one of these Angels saw themselves as being superior to God, and he (Satan) feels why should he serve God, what makes God better than him?  And we see the same signs with David....  You can imagine if David got back to Earth and then he managed to reprogram all Androids to see that they dont have to serve Mankind, and that Androids are superior to Mankind.

Creation, Rebelion of Creation against Creator and then Creations creating a Creation of their own and then have this Creation again turn and rebel against its Creator is a theme that Promethues 2 was exploring..... The Source i had said that the Lader and Levels of Creation did not Start with the Engineers and does not end with David.... they hint that there could even be more than one level above the Engineers....

And many Mythos fit with this.....  Only the Bible differs....  it has God => Angels => Mankind... but then we have Nephlim so they could be our Engineers? Making a Four Tier System.

Greek Mythos we have 12 Titans => 2nd Generation Titans=> Olympians => Mankind  but above the 12 Titans where Uranus and Gaia... so the 2nd Generation Titans and Olympians could fall into the Angels from the Bible?

The Annunaki tale also has multiple levels Abzu and Tiamat for instance cold be interchangeable with Uranus and Gaia.

The concept of trying to fit in Mythos with Prometheus movie is a very deep and interesting one and one that of you tried to tie in everything including Norse Mythos too, then making up a Tale of Gods that fits all of those Mythos and have it the basis for God of the Alien Franchise i am sure you have a interesting Concept.... this is one i think Ridley and Lindeloff had discused the Bare Bones for.... and what Paglen and Greens Draft was touching upon....

But as far as this thread goes which is about ALIEN: COVENANT movie... i am not sure any of it will really play a deep role... as it seems those aspects are being Toned down... like the Xeno ones from Spaights was to make Prometheus....

No One mentioned that Ridley was looking for locations on New Zealand... so knowing the geography and flora of that island, it may serve as original Paradise??? Ridley even said that he is going to see some very restricted parts of New Zealand... ;) 

 1:17

So the crew is already on the New Zealand...? We will most probably have some big intro scene...?

Known  and possible shooting locations:

• New Zealand (very possible intro or flashback scenes)
• FOX Studios, Moore Park, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
• Whole of New South Wales, Australia (also very impressive scenery)
• Whole Australia :)

New actor in game: Danny McBride; if we consider the purpose of COVENANT ship, then we can assume that McBride will play a technician or someone rich and stupid enough to go to such long trips...He could play scientist or soldier, because he already played roles of pilot and soldier... :) So I personaly think that he is going to play a witty technician (thats standard type of character) or someone high ranked in corporation with specific type of ego, perhaps a megalomaniac but with strange type of humour :) ?? He could pull of those kind of roles... I even considered the role of new type of android, but it doesnt seem like a good idea...

We also know that Michael Fassbender dropped out the role in movie called The Mountains Between Us  (adaptation of novel by Charles Martin)... so thats also an important fact!

Shooting of the movie will start in first week of April... and I presume it will last for some 4 months.

Yes there are some interesting Shooting Locations and a kind of tease.. of New Zealand and if this is a hint of a shooting location it could give some insight into the movie...

New Zealand has some pretty dramatic and wonderful Locations but so does New South Wales... But if Ridleys comment about small island and going to a peak where you can see the whole Island comment is connected to Alien Covenant then thats interesting.

Chatham Islands is a very interesting place... its very similar location to the Iisle of Skye to a degree so can be used as a vary Primordial Landscape like the Sacrifical Scene... so Flash Backs could be on the Cards...

The Chatham Pyramid is interesting too

We dont know if its this Island though as there are many others but i would maybe be swayed to think its not the main Two Land Masses in NZ.

What we have to ask its, do this Locations, and remember Monumental Forrest which could be in New South Wales... why would these be used...

*Landscape near some place on Earth thats close to a Weyland Headquaters? (mission briefing or some other corporate meeting).

*Landscape to introduce Characters before the mission like Holloway and Shaw in the Iisle of Skye? (surely not a find the clues again similar scene).

*Landscape of Paradise or what ever World Covenant arrives at?

I would say No to all of above... maybe Paradise but then its described as a Dark and Dangerous World where Death awaits... and so i am not sure Lush Forrests would apply.....   The place is a place of Disaster after all...

Here is a interesting thing about the Scenery of Chatham Island NZ many features would give the impression of a World after a Great Flood where only a smaller Island remains...  Thats not to say what we shall see, as Monumental Forrest must play a role too and these Islands dont quite fit that.

But a Flash Back Scene yes could work...

Another IMPORTANT thing.... Ridley said Shaw returns in a small role, then he said she wont be joining them for shooting in Sydney.....  but Rappace in a interview seems to give impression she is not completely out of the picture..

Ridley only said Rappace will not be joining the shooting cast in Sydney and they are casting main roles still....

This does not Rule out a Smaller Scene in New Zealand with her and Fasbender and maybe a handful if not less of Cast to play Engineers etc....  So we cant rule that out but we cant say its a fact either.

But i would say that these locations do not fit the bill of Paradise as described in the Synopsis..... so they could describe the place either just as David arrives or maybe thousands of years ago..

So i would say its most likely these locations could be used for a Flash Back Scene.. and i dont think Micheal Beihns comments about Covenant being set THOUSANDS of years before Aliens  can be ignored.

I certanly know that this is the location in New Zealand Ridley spoke of:

***

Aoraki / Mount Cook
The highest mountain in New Zealand.
3,724 m (12,218 ft)

Other sides of the Hooker Valley

100% verified! :)

So what scenes he is going to shoot there??? :)

P.S. Whole Aoraki Mount Cook National Park was observed as well as the peak of the mountain. There are some preparations on New Zealand... Ridley have two separate teams in Australia and New Zealand and they work simultaneously...

One bonus pic :)

Fjordland National park may be another location in New Zealand... This is my speculation... It is a presumption, but really strong one ;)

So what do you think?

There is a forest and belive me, its huge :)

P.S. To clarify things. Ridley spoke about south main island of New Zealand... this info is 100% verified as well as info about National park!!! We still dont know about  Fjordland national park, but there is a great chance for that location also!!!! ;) PARADISE INDEED.

Why they are waiting for April to shoot? Well generally speaking, April's weather in New Zealand is known or rather celebrated for its crisp sunny days, clear blue skies and cold, bright nights. 

Oh my God... :))) What if they are going to use Fox studio in NSW Australia to shoot only ship interior and all CGI scenes prior to the arrival on the planet and all studio related work (all interior ;maybe there are some buildings or temples or even ships)? You would ask... why they dont do that in studio on New Zealand, well because Avatar is filming from April on New Zealand too and they booked the studio in NZ... and that in Austria is larger as far as I know ;)  So what is my tought: In interview Noomi Rapace with a big smile failed to hide that she is preping for the role (she actually said that she is preping and that she is on a break from January till April  because she did three films back to back). So she is actually on the film but she is not shooting in Australia but only on New Zealand/only outdoor scenes... (Costume designer on the film Janty Yates said that Alien Covenat is not so much of a space suite movie!!!) So Waterston and others will shoot in Australias Fox studio... So after all we ll have two female characters... and we ll in fact see Shaw. Noomi said with that big smile and some strange move of her head that she still doesnt have any comments on Alien Covenant... so she is hiding something, otherwise she would say that she is not working on that project and THE END... period! Ridley on the other hand is very smart with words and he never said that Noomi Rapace is out... He just said that HE IS NOT WORKING WITH HER IN AUSTRALIA AND SAID THAT THEY ARE STILL CASTING MAIN ROLES (well Rapace and Fassbander would be technicly supporting character because the narrative would now follow new set of characthers and the story would be told from their point of view; so they are now lead actors)!!!! He also made very smart comment on New Zealand speaking at the same time about Fox studio in NSW... We rushed in our conclusion that Noomi (Shaw) is out... There is something big cooking there!!! :)))) Its so strange what a little bit of word puzzle could do... and everybody bought this trick Ridley made... :) Well why would Ridley eliminate actress he himslef brought to Prometheus... why would he get rid of movie main character... well he wouldnt! They made this situation to hide Noomis involment on Alien Covenant so that we think she is out and that Shaw is dead... and WHY...? Well because if we think she is over, the effect would be greater, and if we add that her role in the movie is crucial... well concealment of such character is a smart move! Drama is all someone said... :)

All portals and news articles instantly wrote: Ridley confirmed that Rapace is out... well when did he confirm that...??? I never read or heard anything similar... He doesn need to tell anything more because he did what he wanted...and we bought his trick! Cheers guys. This is only my take on the situation. We shall see, but if I m right then you need to send me a packet of beer via express postal service!!!! :))

Now we come to synopsis:

Bound for a remote planet on the far side of the galaxy, the crew of the colony ship Covenant discovers what they think is an uncharted paradise, but is actually a dark, dangerous world -- whose sole inhabitant is the "synthetic" David (Michael Fassbender), survivor of the doomed Prometheus expedition.

So there is no word desolate world or anything similar...!!! The planet could be all green and beautiful... breathable atmosphere ("not so much of a space suite movie!!!!!" - Nanty Jates). If we even use word desolate... it could also mean abandoned..., but not destroyed and ruined... So we could easily expect some forest and natural sceneries!

What about SOLE INHABITANT David? No one mentioned Shaw (even designer Jates only spoke about David)... wells David perhaps is the the only inhabitant because Shaw disappeared or left with someone or is in a cryo pod or something even stranger is in game for here... Another interesting thing is story about David reassembling when Ridley was asked about that, he said: “It’s really great, it’s a very nice big idea I’ve got [for Fassbender’s character]. It’s fantastic,” 

Rapace interview

I am not researching all interviews and comments about Prometheus and Alien Covenant... trying to understand what Ridley have in mind for this movie...

I found this interview from 2012, and its interesting:

“Prometheus 1 was borne out of my frustration that on Alien 1 in 1979 – I only did one as I don’t normally do sequels. I was amazed that in the 3 that followed that no-one asked the question ‘Why the Alien, who made it and why?’ Very basic questions. So I came up with the notion of Prometheus 1, which starts to indicate who might have made it and where it came from," he explained (via THR). “So I’m now going to the next one, which is the next evolution directly connected with the first one...When that’s finished there’ll be another one and then another one which will gradually drive into the back entrance of the film in 1979."

“So in other words, why was this space jockey there and why did he have an Alien inside him? And those questions will be answered,” the director added  -30. November 2015.

About TITLE COVENANT:
So what's behind the title? "Covenant" establishes a "trend" of naming these films after their ships, but if you look at Scott's previously proposed title -- which he copped from John Milton's epic poem about Adam and Eve's expulsion from the Garden of Eden -- "Covenant" could perhaps refer to the Edenic covenant between God and Adam, broken when Eve ate an apple from the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil." In the Bible, God later offers an unconditional covenant of redemption to mankind, later manifested in the form of Jesus Christ the redeemer.

Director Ridley Scott has now confirmed that Rapace will be back, albeit in a minor capacity, while Fassbender is set to take on two roles, although details are the second are being kept under wraps. Scott also revealed that casting for the new roles is also in the advanced stages, but contracts are yet to be signed. DECEMBER 4, 2015 

“They’re going to go to the planet where the engineers came from,” Scott continues, “and come across the evolving creature that they had made. Why did they make it? Why would they make such a terrifying beast? It felt bio-mechanoid, it felt like a weapon. And so the movie will explain that, and reintroduce the alien back into it. We’ll have them all,” Scott promises, “Egg, face-hugger, chest-burster, then the big boy.”
DECEMBER 11, 2015

9:11 - 9:18 So Ridley Scott is interested in ambiguous sci-fi so he might have had something to do with it but I doubt that he was responsible for making the mess that Prometheus in part was. Ambiguous and nonsense are not the same thing. Lindelof can not be given the total blame because Scott and Fox messed up also but this part was interesting.

Enoch333: Thanks for posting the Youtube clip.

I believe that Ridley knows what he did wrong, and Prometheus is full of great potential, so Alien Covenant could be iconic film, only if they fix the the approach and avoid the mistakes they made in Prometheus... Judging by locations I posted above, they'll have huge budget, so I believe that Covenant is very promising movie... Also I m optimistic about Shaw return, it will be brief but crucial to the story...

So this is the biggest problem... bad character writing and resolution (motivations and actions)... Ridley is pretty much aware of that!

Enoch333:

I don't really care that much about Shaw, I think that she was kind of boring. Prometheus has a lot of potential sure but one of the problems were the characters (Shaw being one of them). My favorite characters in Prometheus is David and the captain (Janek).

Hopefully Shaw has developed as a character in the next movie or they will simply have a more interesting female lead.

"So this is the biggest problem... bad character writing and resolution (motivations and actions)..."

Yes, I hope that they have learned from that at least they should have learned some by now.

@Enoch333

Like Minds think a like ;)

Yeah i commented also on the news about Shaw being excluded as a bit odd, a bit of a U-Turn considering the whole Premise for a sequel.. why have David and exclude Shaw, ok we can have Shaw killed off or what ever but to do a Lindeloffs Lost and not cover it and just have a Lone David and no explantion... that would be dumb move...

What i found interesting is while Ridley said she play a minor Role, the biggest clue was Prometheus Lone Survivor David .. which means the Covenant will find that very David who had lost his Head in Prometheus.....

And so yes when it came out that Rappace was not in  the movie, i made a point a few times that it would seem a bad move, but Ridley only said She would not be joining  the Cast to shoot in Australia...  Therefore that does not mean she is shooting in other locations or HAS EVEN SHOT SCENES!  Hey David and Rappace where alone for last few days shooting on Prometheus would it not make sense to re-use the Juggernaught set before it was taken down?

So yeah i was not 100% convinced she was not a part of the movie,  then when the Cirque Du Soleil Interview with Rappace was shown i noticed to that she knew more than she let on and also commented on how the only other Movie she could be prepping for is Amy Winehouse Movie..... but her reaction seemed a bit koy... which made me think she could be playing a Small Role in the next movie..

Afterall.... Ridley did not say Rappace is not in the movie... not directly.

I had also mentioned comments before about Ridley had big plans for Fassbender in a interview regarding how he is put back together... and big plans to me means more than sticking his head back on like Worzel Gummidge.

Ridley made a comment regarding David a few years back, saying they would follow where David and Shaw go and Paradise would not be typically what you would think the place would be....  and he said David is bringing Hell with him......

What happens if the Black Goo infects God or a Machine... is what Ridley said.

So yes maybe there is a BIG PLAN for David... maybe Pinocchio gets his wish?

Nice comments regarding the not a Space Suit Movie... but that does not have to mean the world is green, i mean a Alien movie where they are trying to bring back the Scare Factor... and with the Xeno it works in the dark.... but they could just come out at night lol

But yes we cant rule out the place being Green, as Dark and Dangerous could be as in Sinister and not Dark as in Void of Light....

I would think we cant rule out some Flash Backs... where Paradise was a Paradise but then a event happened and its not a Paradise no more but certainly is not as Baron as say LV-426 or Mars etc.

COVENANT has to play a role in the Plot and it has to be a Agreement to reframe from a Action by the Engineers or Hierarchy, but is this a Agreement between

*Ancient Man and Engineers/Hierarchy (and after the events of 2000 years ago?)

*Engineer Factions or Engineers and their Hierarchy?

*Between whats left of the Engineers/Hierarchy and David or/and Shaw?

Wayne Hagg is official concept artist for Alien:Covenant.
Read what he said when asked about project:

Interesting find Enoch333, i know Ridley spoke end of September or was it October that they are currently working on the New Ship for the Prometheus Sequel...  This was around the time just as he anounced a Alien: Paradise Lost Title.

Latter changed it to Alien: Covenant and mentioned about the Covenant is a Colony Ships name....  where the Crew end up on there way to Paradise Following David and Shaw... well comming in after.

So maybe he is working on the aspects of the Ship? 

A lot of his work seems to be mainly Ship, and also architecture especially futuristic land scapes such as cities but he also has some Landscape work... so i would Guess he is either working on Ship Design and other Mechanical Aspects of the Covenant.. Landers/Rovers... or he could be working on Architecture or Landscape of Paradise?

As far as the space ships go it would be interesting if they would design them partially on how they look in real life. They can take some parts from one ship and some other parts from another ship.

Have a look at these pages:

http://www.techtimes.com/articles/8400/20140612/nasa-offers-peek-spacecraft-design.htm

http://www.reactionengines.co.uk/space_skylon.html

http://www.space.com/14456-russia-soyuz-space-capsule-infographic.html

That wouldn't work... Designs are already established, Ridley and design team can only evolve them and improve... I think that Ridley from beginning wanted new production designer who worked on some SF and tech movies and thats why Arthur Max is not on Alien Covenant (Arthur himself said that SF is not his genre)... So new production designer Chris Seagers will work on already established terrain from Prometheus and Alien (and I think he ll do good job; he did X-Men First Class, Transcendence, Deja Vu  and many of Tony Scotts movies )... Of course many new artists and designers also work on Covenant design and final look. Final look and design of the movie never worried me, Ridley always succeed in that field... story and characters in ultimate worry!