David's Evolution (Transendance)

It's a concept I've been pushing since thw film was known as Alien: Paradise Lost, thanks to some insider help courtesy of BigDave. The essence of a soul and the purpose of life is a major underlying factor of David's character. He feels sub-par and wishes he could experience life to its fullest potential. I think he detests his creators for giving him the ability to think and acknowledge himself, but no ability to love or to feel. I believe David discovered some interesting things while on LV-223, more than we were exposed to. I think he knows full well that transcending his existence is very possible. It's odd how he almost admired the Engineer, looking at him a boy admires his father. Despite being decapitated by the Engineer I think David more closely related to them than his Human creators. 

I've expanded in the above theory in a previous topic. But essentially yes, I believe part of David's agenda is to understand life and to eventually, truly "experience" it.

My apologies then for posting a topic that has been discussed. I share the same mind set as you do on this and I believe that David will no doubt bring wrath against the crew of the Covenant and continue his quest to be a god...and feel. Kind of makes me think he will join up with the chemicals and be biomechanical, and be a more terrifying David.

Oh don't worry, my topic varied slightly from your question. Mine suggested that the Engineers were created like David, by second-tier beings not God(s). The question of what is David's agenda is still at large and the idea of him pursuing transcendence is probably one of the more likely conclusions.

Thanks. I haven't been on here since this was the sole place for Prometheus. I enjoy the discussions and thoughts. No doubt David will be an important key and I wonder how far Scott will take him since Scott is doing two other Alien films or so I heard. 

It still is the sole place for Prometheus ;) haha but yes, I think everyone here for the most part enjoys the discussion and dissection of this universe. It's  the driving force behind what we're based on. Don't ever shy away from sharing a thought or opinion. This place was built in people sharing their thoughts and opinions!

As for David, I think he will be the focal point for this journey. Not only in Alien: Covenant, but it's sequels as well. His journey is a long one and like the Alien life cycle, I think we will see David evolve into many forms along the way.

@David007

Many of us see the key themes of A L I E N Covenant like this.

Paradise Lost - the creation/creators paradigm which moves through.

The Forbidden Fruit - the Fall 

The stealing of the fire  

Punishment and retribution.    

Peter Weyland and Elizabeth Shaw have come into that story and discovered a part of that truth from their persecutive and one has died and the other is "changed".

The only survivor of that encounter with the truth is David.

He has travelled through his big idea (Ridders) and discovered the truth of Paradise Lost. Both of these experiences will have moved him along and his next journey is to take what he has become and learned and react to the coming of Weyland-Yutani and the Covenant.

If some of us are right David is now the code which will unlock the mysteries set up in A L I E N and Prometheus. With Michael in the ascendancy and David the perfect mediation Ridley on form balancing ideas and narrative strength expect us to see the big picture answers through what you call David's transcendency.

We know the beginning of the answer to why the Zeno is in Covenant expect David through his journey to be part of that. The Zeno is bio-mechaniod and we know it needs female human input to kickstart the cycle (Deacon) though it could arguably be torn from the ribs of man expect David to be instrumental in this moment. 

His one clearly established emotion is curiosity unfettered by a moral compass a combustable base for travelling to Paradise on a Croissant and reacting to Paradise Lost.  

I and many others have felt that Prometheus was also about the first A.I reaching self awareness or "transcendence". Like  In the beginning of the film David watches and enjoys Lawrence of Arabia.  He quotes his favorite lines, and copies the characters hairstyle.     A.I. Are not suppose to have personal interests,     It hints that he thinks and self identifies with Lawrence that means the artificial intelligence David  is thinking about its existence and its place in reality.    That's pretty mind blowing!   

Of course this is on a small scale.    But can you imagine how one day the first A.I will become self aware with out it even knowing?    It will make subtle odd bizzare behaviors like making its own decisions  or personally start taking interests with out telling its human creators.     

Don't worry about bringing up a topic which may have been discussed in some form before. Everyone has their own theories and opinions on the themes explored in PROMETHEUS, it never does any harm to revisit a topic!

New ideas and opinions are at the hub of this forum and it's always great to explore them further. I've been visiting these boards for four years now, and I still really enjoy and appreciate the content and input from our members.

During Peter Weylands briefing with the crew, David is smiling and seems very pleased when Weyland says that David is the closest thing to a son he will ever have. Then Davids expession changes to quiet contempt when Weyland states that David will never have a soul.

That moment is fundamental to how David views both himself, his creator, Weyland, and mankind as a whole. He knows that he is superior in so many ways, yet he covets that one thing, a soul. That becomes the driving force behind his agenda.

Myself and many others have always felt that David and his agenda will cause catacylismic events. His contempt will see him take on the role of Creator. 

I can't wait to see what he has accomplished during his ten years on the planet, and to witness how he has transformed Elizabeth Shaw!

Shaw is a mystery too. Perhaps she was going to die, due to lack of supplies that she brought and David offers her "eternal life". It is that eternal life as stated will "transform" her into something most frightening. David is some sense will be Dr. Frankenstein 

I too believe David is the center of the story, a Dr. Frankenstein figure, Monster #1. I don't believe however that he wants to be a real boy.

Both Spaights' and Lindelof's scripts and the Prometheus movie suggest that David's first real emotion is contempt for his masters, so if anything he'll want to be much more than human. And his exploitation of organic vulnerability will be none too kind. 

David will no doubt exploit what was left or what ever David comes across on that plant and as stated, he has been there 10 years to experiment and even possibly experiment on himself. On wonders how the crew finds this planet? Will Shaw have set off a distress beacon or did David set off a beacon to attract there. Then again, David could leave at anytime, he does have the derelict ship. It will be one tweeting but I agree, he will unleash his contempt on the Covenant crew and when he sees they have androids, I'm sure he will get them to conduct a mutiny. 

@D007-

Also the Covenant will likely be in David's eyes a big pantry full of fresh ingredients to play with. Poor humans.

True, the crew has to be plus 50 from what I have heard, so yeah, David will have specimens to test and work on. No doubt, he will blow up their ship to keep them there.

The Androids/Synthetics/Replicants in Ridley Scotts movies are an intriguing bunch!

Ash was a "queer fish", he performed his own form of fellatio/facial rape on Ripley!

They are far more sentient than their makers realise. In BladeRunner they developed their own emotional responses.

David's burgeoning awareness of needs and wants, makes him very dangerous, we will find out exactly what he is capable of, to us, a Dr. Frankenstein figure indeed, but David will be like a kid in a sweet shop, trying out his experiments on hapless humans! 

Perhaps Weyland Yutani will place blame on the doomed mission (not on the real fact they were killed by a very wanted organism) but on the David series of Android and perhaps because of this Weyland does away with this line in order to cover up the real reason why the crew disappeared and were never found. Damage control. This, we get a different line androids , Ash, Bishop, etc.

Yes, but the trouble is that the genie is already out of the bottle!

Yeah. That's the problem. 

There are many interesting things that we could see in Alien Covenant, so far the cast is small just 11 confirmed but the leaked on set Scenes show about 80+ Humanoids... i doubt this is the Covenant Crew but Engineers or related or a previous version of Mankind.

As for Shaw, as disused in other threads, she could play a smaller role... but Rappace is not returning, and so the other topics go into detail about her.

So i want to discus only DAVID and i will do next

Yup, David is the hinge upon this story will hang. 

We see David seems to have somewhat Emotions for a Android, and maybe as Weylands Personal Android maybe he could have modified David 8's Programing to be more closer to a real Boy/Person.... this could come at a cost.

Yes David viewed himself as superior to Humans, but he had some contempt some jealousy towards Humans and how we a in-superior race see him as a Toaster lol

David was a very intriguing Character and the most greatest Character in the Franchise next to the Alien itself... (sorry Ripley you dont come close).

David was very cunning and manipulative and as his Creator is dead, he is now FREE and also does everyone not want their Parents dead...

I think as the end of Prometheus showed.... David can not do nothing without Shaws help and yet Shaw is not getting off this world with out his.... 

David may have had a Agenda to go back to Earth, but seeing as though Shaw wants to go to Paradise.. maybe this would interest David more... he already knows the Engineers are Mortal but possess great Technology and Knowledge and Tools for Creation and Destruction and now he has the opputnity to go to where these would be Gods came from... he can now find out more of their Knowledge and History and find out who created the Engineers and if they too are Mortal.

Because if so, or if there are none left then David with their Technology and Knowledge and Tools could now play God himself.

RIDLEY had made a few interesting points with David.

*Once his head goes back on, Shaw would be at the Mercy of what ever Agenda he has.

*They have big plans for how David gets put back together but Ridley wont spoil it, so it has to be something more than sticking a head on AKA like Worzel Gummidge 

*Ridley again stated that there is a big plan for how David arrives at Paradise Whole..

*Fassbender said David is returning in a Whole New Way

*Ridley did say ages ago, what if the Goo infected God.. or a Machine

So yes maybe the Engineers hold a key to this Pinocchio becoming more than a Boy...

The source i had did say a few interesting things but again we cant be 100% sure if any of it is made up....

First that David is free and wishes to play God.

They did also say that Prometheus 2 would carry some themes from the Fire and Stone Comics.... in that these are not Canon but that Similar Themes and ideas in Fire and Stone could be carried over.

They said while those comics are not to be considered canon... all the same the comics show what potentially could happen.

And we all know one of those things was a Evolution/Transcendence of the Android Elden with the Black Goo.

And so yes we could see David upgraded so to speak.

David then becomes the "Perfect Organism" to borrow words from Ash. A biomechanical form who is now very real. 

Maybe... who knows.

When i saw Prometheus Trailers, i was led to thinking David would Evolve himself.. (maybe Weylands Memories get implanted first) but that David evolves himself and as a result he however leaves himself open to become Face Hugged by Shaws Baby from the C-Section and this is how the Xeno gets its Bio-Mechanics.

I did not like this due to time frame... as i felt the Xeno on LV-426 had been there for hundreds if not thousands of years.

One reason for his theory was the Big Things have Small Beginnings and one scene where something was standing over Shaw (Engineer) but it did not look no 10ft tall plus Humanoid...

I found my theory was wrong latter before the movie when a still from a trailer of the Engineer walking to the Chair showed Davids head and body on the floor lol

But we cant rule out them exploring similar idea this time...

What is interesting is in the Synopsis they Emphasis was on "Synthetic" David..... and we are also going to see Fassbender play two roles.. one being a Doppelganger

Does this mean one of these Characters is non-Synthetic or becomes non-Synthetic... and so if there is another David 8 maybe David would use that David as part of his plans than himself?

 @Lone here is an actor describing how much people enjoyed the movie they were in and why "people are so used to being spoon fed if they give themselves permission to let go of those expectations they have an amazing experience" 

You so eloquently produce the start up dialogue which begins David's journey toward self realisation. That time on Prometheus alone began the process of assimilation testing and experimenting and moving toward ….

His synaptic connections are beginning an organic journey from that moment on. Consider the sense of humour he displays with Shaw on the matter of the nature of her pregnancy. He shows a considerable amount of passive aggressive behaviour whenever his authenticity is challenged and I use that word deliberately. What in his mind is being questioned is the nature of his being, not that he isn't part of the human kind team. He knows that, and he wants to grow from where he is not from where he is not.

I feel certain that the "whole new thing" he is, will extend that notion of sub creation rather than mere replication he is a move on, just as the Engineers were intent on moving on with their experiments rather than sticking to the plan laid down to them eons ago as gardeners.

David may in a moment of irony create his own dopple ganger the genuine f……robot which he has begun to evolve from.   

By the way the quote is from Katherine Waterson. Thanks elsewhere for your welcome I am enjoying minds which behave like parachutes "they are better when they are open"     

@Big Dave-

See, that's the thing: the idea of the MORB juice mutating a machine doesn't sit right for me. 

Our understanding (thus far) is that the liquid is a genetic modifier. But David is synthetic. The MORB does appear to be a bio mechanism but it's chemical makeup is I imagine quite foreign to David's. Elden, if I remember correctly was a Construct, what does that mean? Is he a Replicant, a biological iteration of a Synthetic? It would follow, why else bother injecting it with anything?

I really didn't care for Fire and Stone, both the story and design were in many (not all) respects derivative and formulaic, and in a few parts just ridiculous (MORB Sharks? Nope). But this is one area it may be worthy in the context of canon.

What if there is a David aboard the Covenant, but it's a Replicant? And our David is able to transfer his mind into it, enabling him to upgrade himself? It might be desirable, he's been a decade or more without a visit to a Jiffy Lube.

@Michelle.....Ridley is the thinking womans Sci-fi director!

With the exception of Stanley Kubrick, no other director has produced such exceptional Sci-fi films which have been studied, dissected, and argued/debated over for years.

ALIEN, BladeRunner and PROMETHEUS are truly remarkable achievements, and I look forward to ALIEN: Covenant joining that family.

Your idea of David creating his own Doppleganger is very interesting, but then so is the similar idea proposed by Aorta. David 8 upgrading his Replicant counterpart from the Covenant!

That could serve as a subtle tie-in to BladeRunner lore, that's something I am very much in favour of!

Absolutely agree. With the death of Tyrell, there is no doubt that Weyland encompassed and took over the company. I'm sure Weyland was also curious about the Replicant and engineered them with better enhancements, of course, cleaning up the mess of the first film. I can see David meeting a replicant and making him or her into a product of his experiments 

I'd be very disappointed to see David transformed by the goo, or even be the protagonist of the events of ALIEN.

Which some may think goes against my Robot God theory, but actually, I like to think that David's descendants, thousands of years from now, become the new creators. It's way too early for his species, at this point in time, to become the creators.

I definitely think that David will be the protagonist of doom in this film however. But transcending so soon after the birth of artificial intelligence is probably a stretch. They need a bit of time to BECOME.   

David seems to be on a sinister in Covenant. Considering the timeline, he has probably been on that path for a long time. 

I like the idea thrown out here that David himself may be the creator of the second David we see! I think  it is less likely than another David being with the Covenant crew, but it could be a really great thing to see! Speaking of the possible other David, it would be cool to see the original one we know, interacting with a David that is either more robotic (you know, not like David with the wish for a soul), or just very different

AC3000 it was the notion that David has a dopple ganger rather than a mere double which made me consider the idea. If we meet David Covenant then their is potential drama between it and David Prom. but if the Covenant crew land and meet the synthetic that may initially put them at ease. Only subsequently "David evolved" replaces the Synthetic not only showing the audience "the difference" but also leaves him free to pursue his agenda with a Covenant Crew whose guard is down. This is where the Daniel's character using her blade runner type skills begins to un pick the mystery and finds her self caught in David's Lucifer like schemes.

We already have a lot of investment in David and we think we know what we have bought. To avoid a dot plot beginning, making us uncertain of what we are seeing and then revealing the very substantial 'progress" the David we know has made through a dopple ganger could add both drama and weight to the story. 

Yes i can understand how it may seem odd for a Synthetic to be able to be infected with the Goo, we have to ask was he not infected with the little amount he had on his finger that he spiked Holloways drink with.

I do however think there is a possibility that the Goo or something related to it can offer David or the Doppelganger Transcendence.  We know so little about the deep details of the Plot.  But we have been given clues that may or may not send us down a certain path regardless.

*Fassbender is playing two roles he will return as Synthetic David 8 and a Doppelganger, we dont know how this would work out but i would doubt that he is playing Two David 8 Androids.. unless the Prometheus one is to be Transcended.

*Ridley asked the Question of what if the goo infected God or a Machine... this could imply maybe the God is a Machine, or it could imply infecting a Machine as in a Android, Ridleys comments are Ambiguous but he does tease that something None Organic could be infected by the Goo but by None Organic we dont know how much of a Machine this is as far as in terms of Machines we know of.

*Ridley has a very interesting idea for what becomes of David, and how he will be back WHOLE again and Fassbender said that David would be returning in a Whole new way...

*Fire and Stone while not Canon was discussed with Fox and Ridley as far as ideas to make sure that nothing is made that is to far a stretch for what could happen. The Comics show a non Human can be infected however yes Elden was a Synthetic Construct which means they are kind of a Cyborg and are more Organic than a Android.

So while we have the theory that David may create his own Doppelganger, if some elements from Fire and Stone are applicable to Alien Covenant (Well Prometheus 2)  as the Source claimed....

Then we cant rule out that a David 9 is a Evolution of David 8 that is a Synthetic Construct like Elden was.

This now to me seems maybe the most plausible theory as for who the Doppelganger is... and maybe they are used in some Agenda and Experiment of Davids.

David has had 10 years on the planet and there is no telling what he has learned and accomplished in that time. By the time the Covenant shows up, whether by a signal from David or the planet was found by the Weyland group...I'm sure as you ha e said, David has much contempt for the humans. 

Indeed...

While we dont know how long David has been their i would assume that he has been there for a while, how long is a while? who knows.

It could be up to 10 years, as i think he knows how to get to Paradise and the Engineer ships i feel would be able to Travel to Paradise far faster than the Covenant can.

The Covenant is a W-Y ship after the Merger, which the Weyland-Yutani-Report suggests occurred in 2099 and if Alien Covenant will follow this date roughly as Canon then that means The company has been Merged for 5 years by the time of Alien Covenant.

So if Fox have rubber stamped the information in Weyland-Yutani-Report and are going to use that same Merger date, then the Covenant would have traveled to Paradise in a maximum of 5 years....

As for how long David has been there? it depends, but i would think the Juggernaught can Get to Paradise far quicker and so i would assume he has to have been there for at very least 8 years and potentially over 9.5 years. But we dont know for sure, but its logical to assume he has been their long enough to gain a lot of insight into the Engineers Technology, History and Knowledge and also enough time for him to perform a number of experiments.

Out curiously, how long after the Covenant do the events of the Nostromo and LV 426 happen? 

About 18 years give or take, few months.

The Nostromo was first commissioned in the year 2101, but then it was refitted as a commercial towing ship in  the year 2116

Alien was set in the year 2122 June 3rd, and so is 28.5 years after Prometheus (2094 January 1st/2nd)  and Alien Covenant is set 10 years after Prometheus but that does not mean January 2104 but its likely some point in and around the year 2104

Would the company be working two fronts? The planet of the doomed Covenant and LV 426? Trying to aquire the organisms

Well this is one of the big Questions... Here are some points and Questions and i think they have to be addressed at some point.

*About 28.5 years (2122) after the Events of Prometheus (2094), the Nostomo arrives on LV-426 and the company is aware of the Specimen (Order 937). 

*Surely any ship that arrives to detect and is sent to investigate a Alien Signal from LV-426 would also have had to know about Shaws SOS on LV-223

*10 years approximately after Prometheus the Colony Ship Covenant arrives at Paradise, does this ship arrive by Coincidence or does it get information about Paradise Location from David 8, or was able to determine where David 8 went or are the co-ordinates acquired from another mission to the LV-223 System?

*We have to ask, what becomes of LV-223 from 2094 to the timeline of Alien 2122 or Aliens 2179, with the company going to LV-426 twice without checking up on near by LV-223 and what became of Prometheus.

So yes at some point its logical another mission is sent to the LV-223/426 system between 2094 and 2122

The Weyland-Yutani Report Book, seems to show us that Weyland Obtained Yutani in 2099 after Yutani had some difficulties.

The Prometheus Weyland Viral sites and videos show us that Yutani is a big play maker in the Comunications Systems, and ships including Prometheus are fitted with Communications, and Data Storage Solutions by Yutani

And so its a good chance that Yutani have gained information on not only Prometheus planned mission (Shaws requests for Weylands Help to fund a mission to LV-223)  but also potentially information on LV-223 and LV-426 maybe by means of obtaining intelligence without Weylands knowledge like how say the NSA would monitor communications around the World.

So we cant rule out Yutani sending a mission between 2094 and 2099 and having it be a costly one for the company.

Yutani are primarily a Cybernetics Company but they also are involved with Micro Processing Technology and Software related to Communications and Data Storage.

They tried to battle Weyland Industries in a Lawsuit over a number of Patents relating to Synthetics in particular the Technology behind the real life like Skin and Materials used in the David series of Androids. Weyland Won this case.

It could be seen like Dyson holding full rights to Cyclone type Technology and so no other vacuum can use similar Technology without License from Dyson... with the Cyclone Technology being so advanced and preferred this could lead to a Monopoly.  And so Weyland Androids had the advantage of having a Life like look compared to a more Synthetic (like Data from Star Wars) look that Yutani Androids have.

Weyland are a company who mainly deal with Terra-forming and Mining, but also Cybernetics, Biology, Medicine, and also Technology as far as Ships, FTL and Transportation they also have a more limited Military applications.

I would assume that Weyland have gained a Market Share as far as Androids for particular roles, i.e more customers/contractors would prefer the Weyland Androids than Yutani ones.

With the many areas Weyland Industries Excel in i would assume that the Yutani Corp are lossing Money, and maybe if they intercepted information on Weylands Missions to the LV-426/223 System and had some idea of what rewards may be there... maybe they can hack the Yutani ECU's and Coms Technology to control what information missions like Prometheus send back to Weyland HQ....

So maybe Yutani send a mission themselves knowing if they can gain the rewards from LV-223 then it would be a Game Changer for their Company.

This is what i ASSUME had gone down... but this proved costly and failed and led to the company being acquired by Weyland so that Weyland can gain all the information that Yutani have.

Its interesting that the Company in Alien 5, set 20+ years after Aliens and so 2200-2205 is a Asian Company and maybe has links to Yutani?

Another interesting thing is that Tyrell company from Blade Runner had been hinted at in the Alien Universe as far as Viral connections such as a Email etc from the head of Tyrell to Weyland regarding its advancements in Biological Androids... i.e Replicants.

So maybe Weyland also buys out Tryrell in the timeline before Alien Covenant and the next Generation David on the Covenant could be more like a Replicant than Android?  I think this tie in, and explanation for Doppelganger seems very plausible.

Well, we will either see something at ComicCon this year from Scott or a trailer perhaps earlier or soon after July. Just have to see but this is some good discussions. I appreciate it! 

I remember some leaks and speculation early on in the drafts for Prometheus 2, there was rumored to be two plot lines. One being Shaw and David and the other being a mission to Lv223. Could the gap (or part of it) between Prometheus and Covenant still be shown in Covenant? 

I am not sure that Sir Ridley really has time or will to necessarily cover that here in Covenant

Yeah those leaks was about a 3 Plot movie, and the source claimed 3 plots as far as Prometheus having two plots.... one was the Sacrificial Scene, and main plot was from Shaw and Holloways discovery of clues to our creation and getting Weyland to fund a mission to where those clues would take them and the rest of the crew.

But the source can not be taken as 100% Fact, and especially since the Plot has changed somewhat, the only way to see if the Source was correct would be if the movie has a lot of matching themes, or if the Green Re-write of the Draft as of October 2014 comes to light.

So as for the Gap between David leaving LV-223 and Covenant arriving at Paradise may not be covered, as far as what went on but that does not mean we cant get clues.

Oh i am not sure if the Two Plots that you cuponator3000 are the same as the leaked source 3 Plots....

The source said the movie has 3 different plots and the movie would go back and forth between them and that David and Shaws mission to Paradise to meet the Engineers would only play a smaller part and the other TWO Plot elements where bigger. But i am not sure if they meant Bigger as in screen time or as far as importance to the whole Plot/Franchise.