THE MURAL ROOM

"That sacrificial cup does not appear to contain black goo. Whatever it is that the elder consumes, it turns his blood/DNA black."

but does it though? because in every scene in the movie whenever the engineer bleeds, it bleeds black. the cup just makes him die painfully. perhaps it adds something to the engineer's inherent;y black blood. so the question then is this. what is in that damn cup lol

@BD and Thread starter and N4

Even in my short time on the site we have had some exceptionally detailed discussions about the headroom. My views are based on Ridleys amazing use of visuals to tell a story and Lindelof's commentary and earlier conversations with BD which helped me focus.

The headroom is like an ancient Egyptian Tomb once you let the current atmospherics in, including mankind's oxygenating, the ancient artefacts begin to break down. Its the equivalent of the Sistine Chapel (Lindelof commentary).

The Black Goo in the vials is a mutagen which contains a Zeno strain (Lindelof commentary).

The Deacon in a sacrificial pose has been sacrificed, like the Engineer at the beginning, to create the Black Goo which is left in homage to their deity - the image of which is the head. The creation of the deacon was established through the experiments explained on the reliefs. This was made clear when the cup was placed on the alter which echoes the Christian ritual of Communion just as Shaw giving birth miraculously on Christmas day is riffing the birth of christ and the annunciation by David/Gabriel.

My only concern/uncertainty is the Engineers who were suited up for departure dashed into the headroom. Did they go in there to finish off their experiments and lock themselves in once the mutagen got out, sacrificing themselves in lifecycle experiments and eventually one came away several hundred years later with the Juggernaut loaded with Eggs and in an act of redemption land on LV426 and before his death set off the Beacon ?

Charlie calls the Headroom a tomb did they lock themselves in and die in their that is the implication. That dialogue in Spaihts draft occurred outside as he looked on the heaps of Engineer bodies and suggests the surviving pilots ultimate destination was to die in the headroom with examples of their experiments.   

@ BD you have mentioned release from bondage before this is a terms used by Tolkien for his first age mythology. My take on this is the Engineers as the appointed seeding gardeners rebelled against their role as sacrificial gardeners and attempted to create life through a life cycle which did not require them the steeling of the fire (Prometheus Myth). The creator/creation cycle, this attempt to sub create out of the original plan represented a release from bondage but a fall which lead to terrible retribution on them. Shaw and David have seen how this sub created activity wrecked havoc on LV223 and when they come to Paradise bringing hell they may either witness further evidence or be the catalyst for a further catastrophe hints of which have been seen. For David, the sub created, to carry on in the tradition of the fallen Engineers represents a continuance of the release from bondage for David which began with Weyland's death."Don;t we all want our parents dead"   

So Yes the Engineers would see the sub created lifecycle as a release from their responcibilities which they came to view as bondage. Again there are echoes of Tolkien's 2nd age history in this where advanced mankind goes up against the gods and is destroyed when trying to break the rules of Eru.

Finally the sacrificial scene at the beginning is so powerful and clearly explained by Ridley and Daniel as a catalytic seeding it is intended with the teardrop shop to suggest an all powerful benevolence before the fall and the ingested material does not include the stolen strain otherwise instead of seeding planets with life and mankind it would generate Zenomorph culture. The Zeno strain derives from the Promethean Myth which has lead to Paradise Lost which our noodle loving Covenanter's will discover the delights of.         

michelle, great post. a few questions:

"nce you let the current atmospherics in, including mankind's oxygenating, the ancient artefacts begin to break down."

shaw doesn't say they break down in the movie. she says that murals are 'changing'. i think the mural room might be a lot more complex than we think. by 'changing' i think she might mean that the course of events and time/fate/destiny whatever are being altered. with her comment i take the mural room to being both tomb and oracle. i could well be wrong about this though, but it's just an idea.

"My only concern/uncertainty is the Engineers who were suited up for departure dashed into the headroom. Did they go in there to finish off their experiments and lock themselves in once the mutagen got out, sacrificing themselves in lifecycle experiments and eventually one came away several hundred years later with the Juggernaut loaded with Eggs and in an act of redemption land on LV426 and before his death set off the Beacon ?"

i didn't see any other dead bodies in the mural room. there were other ships like david said. how do we know the other ships didn't have other pilots in stasis in them? how do we know that that isn't direct;y related to shaws fate in the second movie if the other engineers are in other ships?

"Charlie calls the Headroom a tomb did they lock themselves in and die in their that is the implication. That dialogue in Spaihts draft occurred outside as he looked on the heaps of Engineer bodies and suggests the surviving pilots ultimate destination was to die in the headroom with examples of their experiments."

again why no corpses in the headroom if that was the case?

@T_C. I can't remember seeing the engineer (Bob) bleed black blood.

I can remember seeing a black substance coming out of the decapitated head when Shaw and Ford re-animate it. But, I just assumed that that's because he's been infected?

I don't know. Maybe someone could clarify for us?

T_C

The murals change, the head on the pyramid is revealed and a storm comes in. I see these as connected, the installation and its core is in lock down with sophisticated defences to prevent the uninitiated from leaving. The kind of traps and defences that exist in sophisticated tomb systems or relic treasuries is what is going on here. But the basic principle is the controlled atmosphere is compromised. It is not merely mummies responding to outside atmosphere and decomposing I agree.

The escaping pilots. In the original drafts David sees Engineer holograms which cover vast amounts of time and then they are speeded up with the reveal of the panicked Pilots. If this idea had been pursued the sense that LV223 and its decline occurred over a substantial period would play into the idea that the pilots dashing into the headroom was only part of the timeline. If they then, hidden away for years, worked on their experiments which involved them in the life cycle there would be no tombs just clearing up of shattered bodies. Either way sooner or later some must have escaped your right there are no whole dead bodies, and that gives us the clue as to how the derelict ended up with a cargo of eggs on LV426. The headroom is a place of reverence and has a temple like quality reinforced by its ability to neutralise the effect of the Black Goo. I would imagine the surviving Engineers would leave with it in a pristine condition and all the traps set. Leaving the sacrificial cup on the alter would have increased the sense of the earlier drafts that it was also used as a laboratory where the experiments of the lifecycle would have taken place. The Engineers worshiped and defied materialist achievement rather than a philosophical moral "god". This to me is at the heart of Ridley's vision creation is a mechanistic achievement the myth is a hard-nosed terrifyingly objective reality rather than the result of an ephemeral deity. This is what makes Paradise ultimately potentially terrifying and Shaws reaction is going to be fascinating to finding this is a hierarchy of function (Because you can) rather than pure spirit.              

I think A C will give us more on the ritual of the headroom because excitingly we know there will be further examples of the same iconography.  

Your point about the Juggernaut that David and Shaw left in had a crew is perfectly possible. But the dialogue at the end of Prometheus doesn't work thorough Shaw's concern as to their being further Engineers and indeed if there were her questions could again be pursued by waking one up. I think the arc of the story is more elegant with merely David and Elizabeth and the chest busted Engineer as the "Last Engineer" on LV223.   

"The Engineers worshiped and defied materialist achievement rather than a philosophical moral "god". This to me is at the heart of Ridley's vision creation is a mechanistic achievement the myth is a hard-nosed terrifyingly objective reality rather than the result of an ephemeral deity."

that may well be ridley's intention but if it is then don't you feel that he's somewhat contradicted himself by having the engineer decapitate david and strike weyland dead? because if it is just a 'mechanistic achievement' then david would be worshipped and accepted. also, why would holloway's monologue about the creation of life being 'no big deal' or words to that effect be delivered with such implications of gross naivety, or even negligence?

"Your point about the Juggernaut that David and Shaw left in had a crew is perfectly possible. But the dialogue at the end of Prometheus doesn't work thorough Shaw's concern as to their being further Engineers and indeed if there were her questions could again be pursued by waking one up. I think the arc of the story is more elegant with merely David and Elizabeth and the chest busted Engineer as the "Last Engineer" on LV223."

shaw is very naive and trusting. she may feel she's learnt her lesson but i'm guessing that according to her character, she didn't even stop to consider the fact that there may be other pilots in the ships(and remember she wanted to go into the temple and caves without any weaponry).  if there are, then it could well be that the engineer is automatically woken up upon initiation of the ship's take off systems. i think shaw in many ways represents every man and woman in terms of their hopes for meaning to their existence and a happy ending - convinced of a happy ending even but being perhaps too gung ho along the way without considering the minute details and traps along the way - that is why i feel they may have left out other engineer pilots in the dialogue at the end.

@necronom:

when the engineer sacrifices himself, he bleeds black into the water. the head that explodes also bleeds black prior to explosion. also when the engineer is shot he bleeds black.

"but guys i don't think it's the dna of the xeno the xeno has acid for blood,"

Indeed the Sacrificial Scene leads to Mankind, well it can do and we dont have Acid Blood.... this is because the Sacrificial Substance is not the same as the Urns.

The Urns contain the results of the Sacrificial Substance, only it has Xeno DNA which means something related to the xeno was Sacrificed to make the stuff in those Urns and my bet is due to the Mural that its the Deacon in the Mural that was Sacrificed.

Thus the Urns contain Deacon DNA, now Shaw was infected and it infected her Eggs which would develop into a 1st Stage embryo and now the first stage Embryo of most Fish/Reptile/Bird and Mammal all look the same.

Its a blank Genetic Canvas with less DNA to mutate and thus we get more Xeno DNA related Outcome... the Trillobite which is a Face Huger Hybrid which infects the Engineer to make a Human/Deacon Hyrbid

The Sacrificial Substance appears a Metallic kind of Liquid in a Solid State that changes to liquid and beneath the top layer we see its had cavities like bubbles and these have a metallic mix of colors but when they dissolve they do appear to be going BLACK

The after effect when we see the Black Substance affecting the Engineers DNA and then the Black Broken down pieces of Genetic Material that float in the water.. appear very similar to the Black Compound within the Glass Vials inside the Urns.

"holloway says 'this is just another tomb'"

This is a assumption by Holoway but we need to understand the purpose was that dialect is to provide the clues that we are not given visually.... so they are not intended to be just each crews own assumptions, they are supposed to be clues to suggest their assumptions are accurate.

Shaws (Outbreak she has seen before) Ebola? relating to Black Goo infection.

Janeks (tale of the Laboratory he had to destroy because some scientists spilled something) and also how this place is a Chemical Weapons Facility

These are all clues that are to show us what is going on.

As far as Holloways another Tomb, it would be logical to think it lead to another place similar to the Mural room they are in.

The design and Map of the Cave/Temple is that there is 2-4 such Big Head Rooms in there and maybe each room has a slightly different Genetic Experiment?

We cant be sure... also how do we know this place was always a Weapons Facility?   Why the Star Map?  the Fire and Stone Comics did have to discus elements with Ridley and Fox and they depicted a 4 Armed Alien Race Hunted by the Predator who also had Cave Paintings of Giant Being pointing to the same system.

Ridley had said about the Sacrificial Scene did not have to be earth and indeed it could be anywhere and that Earth may not be the only place they seed Life.

So Each Big Head Room in Each Temple.. which by the concept work and maps would mean 4-5 Temple Mounds each with 2-4 Big Head Rooms...

Could be each Room was dedicated to a certain Life form they had created... you know one could be Humans, other for Klingons lol other for Vulcans lol

But you get the idea... and maybe at some point these Temples where changed to Weapons Facilities..

This is just a theory... but the source clues seem to maybe point to this place could have been Garden of Eden maybe? or at least it could be a place where First Man was created?

I think it was a outpost they would go to Earth and bring back Life, and further Evolve it and test and then seed it back down to Earth.... a Nursery/Greenhouse and Earth was the Garden.

" i don't think it's simply 'because they can' "

This is a subject i was going to bring up on a number of topics...

Yes they could.... Holloway also suggested that we created David because we could... David said how would Holloway feel if his creators said the same thing.

Weyland did Create David because he could... Weyland wanted to show how great his knowledge was, if he could create a Humanoid Android so Advanced you could not tell it apart from a Human then Weyland would have proved his greatness as a pioneer a master of technology and ultimately like God....

He created David because he could, but also to show off why he could, because he had achieved such greatness.

But then why else was David created? to purely be Weylands Showpiece... to be Weylands Son so Weyland is not alone... and has a Legacy

All these apply to David... but then also David was used as a means to not only be companionship, but also to perform tasks that otherwise a Human would have to do, Androids can perform tasks to save mankind having to do them.

Be it Military so we dont lose Humans to battle, be is as Service Androids to clean, cook and take care of their owners...

They can even replace us in doing any kind of Work, not only Work that is difficult or stressful but any kind of work includes Manufacturing.

The Androids are therefore used at the end of the day to perform tasks that Mankind can to a better degree so that WE do not have to....

We see this in the Sumerian mythos too,  The Annunaki created Mankind to bear the Toil and Work the Mines after the lesser Gods Igigi had rebelled and no longer wanted to perform that task.

We have to ask, if the Igigi still performed the tasks for their Hierarchy would the Annunaki Gods had needed to create Mankind?

The Biblical Account varies some instants Mankind was created prior to the Fall of Satan... others it hints at after... which is the most common theme..

If we go with that, God had his Angels who served him, worshiped him and maybe offered him companionship... these Angels would perform what ever Tasks God would wish.

After the Fall and Rebellion by Satan who was gifted more freewill and saw himself as not needing to serve God, saw himself as equal to God and maybe superior because he was created Perfect...

Satan was able to corrupt and persuade a Third of the Angels to join him.... this proved Gods creation the Angels could be corrupted due to knowledge and freewill to not see God as a figure to worship and obey.

So God created Man, a new Race to serve and worship God a Man who would devote himself to God...  God then created Woman to keep Man Company.

Satan however could tempt the Woman because she came from Man and not God,  Man only serve God his mind was obedient only to God.  Woman (Eve) was to serve God and also Man (Adam) this could cause conflict in that they do not serve 100% to one being but TWO..

This allowed Satan to tempt Eve to Eat from the Forbidden Fruit that gave her knowledge...  Adam then ate from this because he could not bare to see Eve die and leave Adam all alone again.

So again there was a purpose... we also have to note that Adam and Eve where tasked with Tending the Garden of Eden and looking after all the Plants and Animals... the work was easy the Garden Fruitful

After the Fall, they had every lasting life taken away, thrown out of the Garden and into a World where the Toil of the Land would be harder and harsh.

And so again there was a purpose.... its not only because THE GODS COULD!

And yes so in context to Prometheus there was a Reason Mankind was Created... and i hope we find out what this reason was.... but if the source is to be believed then this reason is part of some Horrific Agenda.

@ Michelle

Most of your comments could be very well whats going on and most are what i share too

"@T_C. I can't remember seeing the engineer (Bob) bleed black blood."

The Chest Wound is from the Gunshot....

The other wound is from the Deacon and both have a Dark if not Black Blood

@T_C

Shaw represents the faith based narrative which has come up against a creation myth devoid of sentiment or the concept of Love which is at the heart of Christian Faith "God Loves Us" indeed God is Love.

Charlie is another form of incautious naiveté. He is not god fearing and neither is he zealously a darwin materialist. He is basically a boy masquerading as a man  and is incapable of responding to the serious circumstances they find themselves in. I do not define him as articulating a response to the big idea just another strand of inappropriate behaviour.

Peter Weyland is invested in the Promethean Myth and is a central part of the morality tale. He as he shows in the Ted Talk is a megalomanic invested in his immortality. Everything else is expendable and he is actually jealous of his creation David. One of the reasons Prom missed with people is they did not realise the mission was his and had to much information by the time we find the old man being prepped after the C Section. 

The Engineer is initially impressed by the A I he is confronted by and touches David with a sense of wonder and appreciation. However when he realises the group are emissaries from the strain of mankind he had been sent to wipe out 2,000 years ago and who were on his doorstep and that David was the consequence of their sub creation he is horrified and what follows is a single minded determination to pursue the original mission to destroy mankind and start again but in a "better place" with their sub creation.

In Covenant David may or may not come into contact with live Engineers and will build on his experience in the Orrery Room but he will certainly come into contact with the legacy of Paradise Lost. The combination of awe filled power and his curiosity unburdened with a  moral compass may lead to an interesting answer or two.                   

@ BD multiple headrooms. That would be interesting to pursue perhaps mankind is one of many races created. The recipe for mankind is different than say the Romulan recipe or the Ferrengi. However once they did the "they are us we are them" it focuses the bigger audience on the singular relationship between the Engineers and ourselves. We are their plaything. The multi headrooms and broader mythology of the Engineers is the sort of material I believe belonged to Prometheus Paradise or as Ridders said "its all about everything".

Fox and Ridders I suspect will now make these pre equals more linear in response to the Prometheus reception and everyone getting excited about A. 5. So we will get more specific Zeno history and Ripley connections and less Engineer world building. BD This is something we have discussed at length what I call switching the telescope round the other way with the Zeno's at this end and the Engineers at the far end.  

""but guys i don't think it's the dna of the xeno the xeno has acid for blood,"

Indeed the Sacrificial Scene leads to Mankind, well it can do and we dont have Acid Blood.... this is because the Sacrificial Substance is not the same as the Urns."

and that's the point. if the black goo isn't used as sacrifice to create any type of life....then why are they sacrificing engineers in that way? they have received an order to do so.

"The Urns contain the results of the Sacrificial Substance, only it has Xeno DNA"

how do we know it has xeno dna and isn't just engineer blood? purely because it makes any lifeform that comes into contact with it violent and strong?

"Yes they could.... Holloway also suggested that we created David because we could... David said how would Holloway feel if his creators said the same thing."

precisely but david is screwing with him because i think he knows that is not the case. holloway is being emotionally manipulated by david there. again, the fact that man made david  just because they could i think is exactly why he was decapitated.

"All these apply to David... but then also David was used as a means to not only be companionship, but also to perform tasks that otherwise a Human would have to do, Androids can perform tasks to save mankind having to do them."

THIS here is the crux of it for me. david is the poetic showpiece of a species that refuses to acknowledge the massive problems it has when dealing with one another as individuals. david is the 'manifest destiny' of mankind so to speak. instead of mankind sorting out the slavery and bondage that still exists and working together,being merciful and functioning as spiritual entities, they made david to do all the things it doesn't want to. david is the representation of a race that has learned to love its' bondage and that is why he was destroyed. the issue here with david for me is that of cosmic politics, david is the pinnacle of capitalism and i don't think either God or the angels like that system very much. to put it this way, if you're one of the many people who are still living in slavery conditions building olympic stadiums in dubai, or a homeless man or woman in a freezing country does a God who creates a mechanism of physical death seem evil or loving and good to you? i mention that because ridley scott is very adamant in talking about an 'evil' God...but i dunno if he would feel that way if he had been on one of the slave ships or in any other dehumanising life situation that there was no escape from.

Agreed Michelle

Oh as far as the Engineer and David the deleted scenes seem to give more depth but we are now having to accept the Engineers here had no Good Intentions for Mankind.

But i think the Original idea was that he was quite intrigged especially with Shaw, but then he sees that Weyland is the one in charge calling the shots, where only his Agenda matters and he even orders Shaw to be silenced.... so he sees from this that Mankind is Selfish and the he gets to listen to Weylands Agenda which is more life for this Megalomaniac who sees himself as a God because of his creation of David

The Engineer then senses David is not flesh and blood, and realizes that Mankind has Evolved to be able to reach the Stars, and find LV-223 and Mankind has created life in its own image.

This life they have created, can comunicate with the Engineers and use their Technology and is more Advanced than its creators.

Then he also notices that Mankind are still a selfish race who know are at the Gates of the complex these Engineers have created some Horrid Experiments, with Weylands Agenda understood and David as a Tool who can use and unlock all the Engineer Secrets..

The Engineer had no choice but to rip Davids head off and then wipe out Mankind, because Mankind and their Synthetic Creations can not be allowed to come to this place (LV-223) obtain and use all the Technology and Biology and then be able to use it across the Galaxy.

This would make Mankind a serious threat, and we would be on level footing with the Gods.

If we look at it even in the simple way, The Engineer sees Mankind has created Life who could pose a threat to Mankind and the Engineers.

The Synthetic David created my Mankind for a purpose, but is a creation who ultimately could overthrow his creators and so the Engineer sees the threat that such a creation David could pose as he can use the Engineers Tech.

The Engineer saw before him a repeat of maybe the Engineers themselves, who are created by their creators and ended up maybe using their creators Knowledge and Tech to overthrow them....

The Engineer could see the same thing potentially happening here unless he put a stop to it

"then why are they sacrificing engineers in that way?"

This is a bit ambiguous, but it maybe seems the way they decide to do it, the result would start evolution of many lifeforms but it seems the process to Mankind is a long one with many more upgrades... surely if the purpose was to create Humanoid in their image then there would be easier method? or more straight forwards?

Ridley said that the Sacrifical Scene was not the only way they could do it, its just the way they choose to do it.

And it would be like how Ancient Tribes would select a Sacrificial Participant and this person would be treated as a Prince/King for a year and then they are tossed into the Volcano so that the Tribe may have a better Harvest the Next year.

The one extended Sacrifice Scene did translate to suggest the Elder said "let your blood become the waters" etc etc and "your soul a way back for us"

so combining the both, the Engineers just do it this way for some purpose that has long term greater good for their species.

"how do we know it has xeno dna and isn't just engineer blood? purely because it makes any lifeform that comes into contact with it violent and strong?"

This is what the Weyland File tried to show us, but it contadicts what we see and what the original plan was.

We have to ask how really did the Engineer get his faceburn.... watch the scene and extended one, frame by frame... you will see for the most part his burn is not there and then is then its not..

The whole scene was cut and edited and parts left out, it would seem maybe the Plan was the Engineer with no Face Burn gets into the Struggle with the Trilobite and when he is about to loose, he bites the Trilobite as a last resort, the section you can see him as if he is about to do this..

This is where i think the Acid Burn comes from...

If we look at the alternative Fifields and the Plans that never came off, we again see more Xeno DNA... the Mural is big clue too.

The Sacrificial Substance, breaks down a Organisms DNA to produce a New Substance, that then mutates and evolves Organisms it comes into contact with and evolves its natural traits while adding traits of the Organism that this new substance came from (the Sacrificial Organism).

The Urns contains the results of a Sacrificial Organism that is related to the Xeno in terms of DNA

I dont know if this is the plan now... but thats how it was prior to editing.... I suggest you read Spaights draft and pay attention to the Sacrifcial Scene (Scarabs) and Primate that infected.... and then the Urn/Fifield scene (Scarabs) and Xenofied Fifield.

Then replace Scarab with some kind of Mutagen Parasite and it makes perfect sense then.

"Peter Weyland is invested in the Promethean Myth and is a central part of the morality tale. He as he shows in the Ted Talk is a megalomanic invested in his immortality. Everything else is expendable and he is actually jealous of his creation David. One of the reasons Prom missed with people is they did not realise the mission was his and had to much information by the time we find the old man being prepped after the C Section. "

Peter Weyland is Daniel Plainview from There Will Be Blood in space. he is depicted in the stance of the tarot card of the fool at the start of the film why? what is the fool? the fool in the tarot represents everyone - have you ever spent ages looking for your keys even though they were in your pocket all along? that is the essence of the idea of the fool - it's important to keep that in mind. his entire mission is to defeat death because like most super-rich self obsessed corporatists, he does not understand why death would need to exist as a phenomenon. weyland sees nothing wrong with the world and mankind at all and is frustrated by the reality of death. just like the fool instead of looking at the obvious nature of why death would be a necessary mechanism for humanity to exist, he instead wants to try and beat it.

So either engineer blood is black or Bob had been infected which led to his blood turning black.

i'm calling it and saying engineer blood is black

"Charlie calls the Headroom a tomb did they lock themselves in and die in their that is the implication."

i took it as him saying that the urns were tombs.

Whew, BravoDelta, you have such a wide grasp of all available material.  It can make your head spin!  The question is, are all these threads from different drafts, re-writes, etc. to be considered in the story, or do you only consider what was ultimately "printed" in the final movie story-line, as "canon"?  The original intent of the many people involved was so different at times, even contradicting, that trying to make sense of it all, after a "version" was published, as a finished movie, is extremely complex, to say the least.

I have gained valuable insight into the plot, and indeed the various sub-plots of the Alien saga, which I appreciate.  But I am also confused by the labyrinth of competing theories being presented, and just how to re-assemble my personal view on things, to incorporate all this added info. 

I guess it boils down to Ridley's vision of the creation, and how an alternate version of religious canon might be created, by explaining all the mythological religious characters, as simply advanced races experimenting with the creation of life.  The re-occurring themes in ancient texts about the creation, superior beings, a fall from grace, etc. are explained from a technological POV, versus a supernatural one. (Who was it that said any technology sufficiently superior to our own would appear to be magic?)

All the symbology (murals, black goo, alters, sacrifices, etc) introduced in the Alien/Prometheus story attempts to explain ancient/Biblical myth/legend with suitably logical explanations, according to modern man, and his expanded knowledge or POV. 

This would be viewed as either heresy or enlightenment, depending on your POV.

As I try and make sense of it all, I think we are on the verge of actually finding this stuff out for real ourselves.  Not to get too far off-topic (sorry) but hiding actual UFO/ALien contact from the general population.  I think this is because learning the truth will stand all religious/philosophical theory on it's head, causing us to re-think everything we think we "know".

This is what Alien/Prometheus means to me.  A re-examination of all my core thoughts and beliefs, as to why we're here, who created us, and what we should be doing about it.          

the bible doesn't exclude alien life.prometheus isn't reinterpreting anything. it's all been in there from the start. i think that's what people struggle to grasp. both plato and the old and new testament were doing sci fi from waaaaayyyy back when. what the alien saga is doing is helping people reevaluate their understanding of what the relationship between fiction and reality truly is, and of course, the mundane and the supermundane. it isn't called the 'greatest story ever told' for no reason...it's called that because it's most likely the truth!

"This is what Alien/Prometheus means to me.  A re-examination of all my core thoughts and beliefs, as to why we're here, who created us, and what we should be doing about it."

This was one of Ridleys intentions... to open our minds to such subjects.

As far as the Bible, it depends it is a vary ambiguous book at times and things can be interpreted in different ways...  If you sway to the Ancient Aliens theory you can find some things that could add to that theory..... if you are a Scientist or Aesthetic you can have a field day pulling the book apart but there are a few Scientific parts (Koran is better) 

If you are a Hard Line Christian then it depends how literal you read into the material, when Angels are coming down on Burning Chariots is that really what happened?   When Moses spoke to a burning bush is that literally what happened...  or are these interpretations or metaphors?

So yes when we look at the Holy Books and then include some others like Dead Sea Scrolls and Book of Enoch there are some bizarre things in there but its how literal do we take them.

As far as how do we look at the Movie....

If we look at the movie as in Theatrical and throw out everything else... its kind of hard to get... Weyland Files made it a bit more hard...

Adding the other movies, helps to make some sense...  and Ridleys comments give us more clues.... the deleted scenes more so... and then other drafts can help us to understand...

But i can give a overall view of what the Movie Shows if we only accept Prometheus theatrical cut...  which is a very vague and a bit of mess Plot

The main problem I see, with producing all these confusing theories, is that info that is not deemed canon can be messing with our minds, to a point where we're not staying on target with the basics and what we know just from the movies themselves ... all the deleted scenes were deleted for a reason ... to set and 'maybe' change the whole main story line and then more so after they finished the movie and produced the final cut ... i.e. make it canon ... I don't trust any info in those deleted scenes, for this reason, as they could led to red herrings ... good info, I grant you but I wouldn't take it as trusted info ... they should all be left on the floor of the cutting room ... but that's just me ...

As for the cup of tea at the beginning of Prometheus ... with that 'stuff' now in the water ... if it 'is' goo or Xeno based, then are all the organisms, fish and whatever else is in there not turned into alien type species? ... I don't think it was goo ... just another prescription from Boots (chemist) that the Engineers created for themselves, to produce whatever they were trying to achieve ... life ... so would that then produce the mammals that came out of the water and turned into man? ... or something else? ...

Here's one for you ... what if that's not Earth? ... just another experiment but this one goes wrong ... could that be the planet Covenant arrives at and lands on, after all these years later? ... it's had time to evolve ... Scott doesn’t claim it’s necessarily Earth (in his BluRay commentary) he seems pissed that people assumed it was definitely Earth ... that just came out in the moment ... no books or deleted scenes ... out side the box that one ... lol ...

Spaihts Vision

A L I E N Engineers was a closed book version of the story which backed into A L I E N and placed the derelict and the Jockey in situ. It provided the kind of connectivity that many in the audience were looking for. The key anomaly, and there maybe more if I chose to think about it, is the Pyramids are missing from A L I E N S. Nevertheless much of his foot print is in Prometheus.

Lindelof

His vision expanding the universe considerably and he deliberately left elements ambiguous so we could apply our own intellectual rigour to the proceedings. Once the movie got out Ridley started answering some of those questions rather than say hey guys make you own mind up though he politely encouraged that in some of his answers.

As an example

Is the sacrificial scene Earth - answer not necessarily but that is how life could have been catalysed and it makes sense since evidence of Engineer Visits exists in most ancient cultures.

There are more, the most intriguing one for me is the Deacon is a Proto Zenomorph (Lindelof) which means the Zeno we know and love is still in the future at the date of the Prom mission which leaves the dating of the crashing landing on LV426 in the future when Ridley has suggested it was within a few hundred years of LV223 incident. That is not ambiguous that is confusing !          

Deleted Scenes 

Most of the deleted scenes in explanation where not left out for reasons of inappropriateness to the story but like many movies for pacing. The things that David witnessed  in the longer scene are not necessarily rejected they are just not on the page. In Lindelof's script we get a better insight into the story not a different story. The differences are about presentation not fundamental tenants.

The Black Goo

In the official commentary the Vial liquid is a Zeno strained mutagen. There is nothing in the headroom to contradict that, there is nothing in the outcome of Charlie being infected or the worms ingesting it that contradicts that notion. The only question is about the catalyser at the beginning. It might be a spawning of Zeno life in the galaxy but everything in the commentary suggests it is bringing a life giving catalyser to a lifeless planet. Given there is a Paradise Lost moment between the opening scene and the LV223 incident and the Engineers look different, deeply religious pure acolyte at the beginning and suited militaristic look on wake up, to make the deduction that something happened and we are dealing with a different Goo seems to be highly probable. Do I have a sworn affirdavit from Sir Ridley on this no I have Lindelof's permission to think it through.              

A C has three challenges :-

1) Keep us thinking on the widescreen issues. The symbolism and philosophy of the story.

2) Make the connections to A L I E N less ambiguous.

3) Make the characters less distracting for those whom find stupid decisions and naiveté a problem. Some of the crew need to be noble and brave so the general audience care about them. That said do not takeaway entirely the notion that human beings do stupid and naive things thats what makes sci fi real making the characters flawed.      

Michelle i could not have put it any better myself... exactly the reply i would have put..

@Gem]n[

I understand your point... yes few things they had changed for reasons to maybe change the way they had intended... Elders Scene for one.

The movie is too ambiguous.. and its commentary and comments that are made by Ridley and other members of Production that help to give further clues to what is going on.... but it seems some of these contradict each other.

I hope after we get Alien Covenant and its sequel then things are made more clearer....

We dont get answers to the purpose of it all in Prometheus not clearly.... deleted scenes did help... but thats not to say they are going the way the deleted scenes would have shown us... especially the Full Elder Scene.

So we dont know the purpose or agenda.. it could have changed from the ideas behind the drafts prior to finishing Prometheus.

I think Lindeloff definitely made it ambiguous for a reason and that is to keep mystery and to allow each of us to not be able to come up with a different theory each... Lindeloff loves this element.

If they made Spaights Alien Engineers instead and to the letter...

We would have less to talk about...  but it would have a few questions remaining still and a few Plot Holes...

But even Spaights draft was ambiguous.. as far as the Engineer at the end being the Space Jockey... it does not have to be..

This could be as if it had taken place say in South America.... the temples are just like in South America... the Ship crashes near by...

But the Space Jockey could be a event say in a baron Russia...

My point being Spaights draft does not 100% suggest the event was the Space Jockey, it could hint at that being the case... but no more than Lindeloffs or Spaights as far as the Sacrificial Scene was Earth...

In Spaights case it was..

I think Spaights draft is flawed for many reasons.... Lindeloffs changes where better for some... ideally a merger would have been better.

@bigdave

"If you are a Hard Line Christian then it depends how literal you read into the material, when Angels are coming down on Burning Chariots is that really what happened?   When Moses spoke to a burning bush is that literally what happened...  or are these interpretations or metaphors?"

hardline christians are unimaginative in their interpretation of the bible because they are mostly terrorised, traumatised and vulnerable, low income individuals who are made to feel guilty for merely existing. the word for God in greek is THEOS(tone on the 'o'), which could be seen as being directly related to the word THEA(tone on the 'e') which means 'the view' - in short God in ancient greek or greek as a word could be interpreted as being the view of something - most likely the stars in the night sky. with that in mind, it could well be that 'atheism' and 'Christianity' are not as opposed concepts as one might think.

in all ridley scott's movies so far i see a very common theme manifesting itself, and i think the message is this:

if there is a God, then the path to him is secular.

The Mural if i tackle it within context of the Theatrical Cut and clues... and only what we see in the movie... or hear... and using Alien too.

Then it simply shows us that This Place (LV-223) and that Temple, these Engineers had conducted experiments on related to Xenomorph DNA, how and in which order.. is not answered...

These Engineers hold these experiments in high regard, its worshiped or just showcased... maybe as a look what we can do... or something more... it never explained..

Only that the Mural shows some connection to the Deacon at the end Genetically but its ambiguous so we cant say if its a Prophecy of a Event to come.. or that this Organism in the Mural predated the Urns that leads to the Deacon.

We know these Engineers are Genetic Manipulators, who Evolve and create Life... and so they could have created the Xeno and Mural Organism.. or the Xeno or Mural Organism could have been created from each other but only one was created by the Engineers by re-engineering the other.. but this is not shown.... its open to debate.

What is known is that those Urns contain something intended to be used as a Bio-Weapon... that is related Genetically to the Mural but also that its use may be to upgrade something rather than destroy.

If we bring the Frescos in.... again its do we only go by what we see, in which case the Egg one is so obscure in the movie that maybe we cant connect it?

But the Engineer and Creature one we can... this is like a Fresco in the Sistine Chapel but only as far as to showcase something very important to the Engineers in relation to their Agenda and that place (LV-223)

It could be taken as showing this creature is created by the Engineer and so its a God/Adam type Fresco... but then we have what looks like a C-Section Scar...  maybe we can say David created the Trilobite or Shaw  by the same token.

i.e the Engineers created this creature, but by a method that required a Sacrifice... i.e Face Hugging or other method... and then this creation was removed from the Engineer as per Shaws C-Section.

But its ambiguous but shows the Engineer was connected to how these creatures came to be perhaps?

But to me... the Engineers stance does not look the same, and to me it reminds me of the Prometheus Fresco

Make Prometheus Bald....

Replace Eagle with something related to the Xenomorph sent as Punishment...

Use the Punishment as a Metaphor... continued punishment having his guts ripped out to then have to endure it over and over....   Replace that with a what if Shaw was infected a few days after by the same Process and then had a C-Section again... and if she was put through this by David over and over.

And maybe thats what the Fresco is showing?

But again... this is not shown on film... the Fresco is ambiguous... some take it as Adam and God... but in reality all it shows us is a affiliation with the Engineers and that creature and it has to connect to the Deacon Mural and Xeno DNA some how..

Indeed Ridley was posing a Question...

When he made Prometheus he did mention this Question..

Where do we come from?

Where do we go when we die?

What is our purpose?

These are a few things he did mention in relation to Prometheus...

But he movie posed them as.....

Who made us... (Engineers in some connection)

Why?  Was never answered clearly..

Where do we go when we die?  Again never answered clearly...

But its a case of how deep down the Rabbit Hole is Ridley taking us?

@BD 

I think you describe beautifully why you need to separate out concepts 

Engineers experimenting with genetic construction.

Punishment for doing so

and the precise detail.

Mural - prophesy or representation of achievement.

Fresco - creator/creation worship or repetitive punishment.

The way I make my deductions are based on related evidence. The Fresco is emblematic and I do not think corroborative evidence exists and in filmic terms its value is it changes not what is in the fresco, the vast majority who saw the film cannot even have seen the detail, however the mural can be contextualised.

1) The scream in the hologram suggests the creature existed and terrorised the pilots.

2) Charlie whilst looking at the Alien shape fused into the alter says "This is just another tomb" and turns the flash light on the centre of the mural. Every element of that 20 seconds is meant to convey a creature is buried there in the headroom. The cup though removed from the trailer is focusing on the notion of sacrifice and would have made the connection as to how the Deacon met its end but in filmic terms knowing the deacon is "buried" there is more important. 

Individually we do not have to agree with these interpretations in order to understand the concepts and one can read more into things than is there but i am encouraged by Daniel's exultation to think it out myself. Indeed in story telling terms making precise connections with A L I E N is not crucial as long as it does not outright contradict the developing mythos. 

@T_C you are correct that Ridley is offering a vision of a materialist view of creation but curiously you will notice by considering the texture and rituals of the headroom that this creation myth still has a sense of religiosity. Notions of worship and symbolism are still present. I think the cult-us of the Engineers still invokes hierarchy and engagement with a set of values. The difference is it is entirely devoid of sentiment or "love". The reasons the Engineers failed is because they felt humiliated in their bondage and wished to break out from it. in that sense the creator failed and made them corruptible and dare I say "unloved". They were born to sacrifice and interesting the only way out that is described in elements of the mural was to sacrifice themselves through subjugating themselves to the Lifecycle an interesting metaphor for mankind.

Where Covenant could be very powerful is the incoming crew display and communicate love between each other and toward those absent (The Ripley Child) and then go up against the most appalling union of two elements of sub creation the Engineers and their own Synthetic. A L I E N films have tended to make the entrees hard nosed and unsympathetic its time for the nobility of mankind the best elements to face the foe. It has to date best been articulated by Ripley and her protection of Newt that is the core of the success of ALIENS I hope with these colonists we will see more enabling us to better see the mythos more clearly as distinct from our own (not that we are doing particularly well right now).         

BravoDleta excellent interpretation, as usual, thank you!  I must admit I never came up with half the stuff you guys figured out.  Deleted scenes, alternate re-writes, etc, may or may not effect the story.  Depends on whether they conflict with it, or just slowed down continuity and was edited out for flow.  So yeah the additional material may help expand/explain story, or just confuse the issue!   

MJ:  Now you are really getting somewhere.  I think the exposure of human love to the engineer culture would be an awesome concept to explore.  When I was active duty, I can truly say I loved those guys I was with.  I would fight and die for them.  That is truly Man's finest trait, IMHO.  The fact that you have to shoot at us (or otherwise threaten our existence) to bring out the best in us, yeah, maybe we could improve on that, but the fact remains we would voluntarily die for each other, as opposed to be forced into some kind of ritual suicide. 

So now we are getting into the concept of free will.  And the difference between an "angel" and a human.  And the jealousy of the angels against the human race. How would an engineer react to that (as opposed to the selfishness of that dick Weyland). 

TC: It all depends on your interpretation.  I was one of those people brought up in a fundalmetalist Christian home.  I was taught a very literal interpretation of the Bible, as described by BD.  So to these folks, God being an "extraterrestrial" is gonna freak them out.  They ain't gonna stand for it.  But it would seem you have a much more liberal interpretation of it, which would allow for a Ridley theory.     

@Diz 

By the way it occurs to me if Charlie Holloway hadn't been such a "callow youth" type we might have regarded his death in front of Elizabeth with more connection. I understand however that as a plot point for David he had to be some thing of a D..K to enable David to pursue his curiosity with the Zeno strained .B G. 

I actually found the very serious Elizabeth swept off her feet by the smooth talking Charlie very believable where I think Prom went astray is the Fifield/Milburn axis. One of them should have been a risk averse spotty engineer geeky bureaucratic compliance type (which could have explained how they never reached the ship rather like Vickers improbable death not thinking out of the box) where as Milburn should have been the idealist so his naiveté together with the deleted lead in scene would have made more sense of his incautiousness. In addition  before the male rape by the worm happened Fifield should have got into a furious argument with him.Playing up the potential gay guys one overt, one angry was not helpful to the overall narrative though I liked the morality of the weakling Fifield played against the Zeno sponsored Fifield (he to got what he wanted but not quite as he expected).    

Yeah, as others stated, you gotta like these characters in order to identify with them.  Shaw I didn't have as much problem with, as others; I think you need an idealist in the mix, but like anything else, you can take it too far, if not tempered with a little practical.  Holloway is just what his name suggests.  Milburn and Fifield.  Yeah that was a real mess.  Little too one-dimensional characters.  Fifield needed some redeeming qualities.  Milburn needed a little more common sense.  You would think these guys got some basic survival/ self-defense training as part of the package to go into space.  They acted totally stupid when under pressure.  Again you would think some kind of training/ screening would go on before sending these dorks into space?  What was the pre-arranged SOP for dealing with Alien life forms?  In the military these are called "Actions on..."  Kind of boggles my imagination that a crew would be sent into space without any of this?  But then again, that's from a former-mil perspective.       

Indeed Character building and utilization was a flaw... they was merely used as a Plot Device.

Michelle again.. i could not have put those things better myself.... we have to look at the Purpose...   The source did try and hint those Gods where not Angry but maybe Jealous a bit and that David carries the same sentiment a bit towards Mankind.  I think they (source) have tried to hint that David and our Engineers are not too different....  i think this is in context of their purpose and how they may eventually feel about this.

The whole Plot and Agenda is so broad that the possibilities are near endless...  They was sending us down the Ancient Aliens route.. where all Religions and Mythos are based of a actual interaction between Mankind and the Engineers and their Hierarchy

But i think Prometheus 2 was to set us down a path to loosely connect it with Paradise Lost and Prometheus Mythos but not too literally... they actually said the nuts and bolts of related themes are more connected to the Matrix movie.

so it would be interesting to try and work out the Purpose...

When i look  at those concepts.. and Alien Franchise and try and make 2+2 = 4

Then a common theme is PUNISHMENT...  and maybe we need to look at Prometheus Punishment and Why, and Satans Punishments and why... and try and draw a common ground in context to each other that ties in with Alien and Prometheus...

This would at least hold some clues for us..

I know some early theories was the Jesus was a Engineer started to go around... and some connected the Mural to that... but Ridley had said this is not quiet the case...

But it should had been looked at Mankind was no longer performing the purpose that was intended, and showed signs of Rebellion and behaving in ways that was against the wishes and intentions of the creators.

And they had tried to put us on the right path... but that never worked and so the Xeno Strain was a result of a reaction to us and punishment... but off course also sometimes to create one must destroy.

But i think this notion can work, but it has its flaws... we simply dont know what the true Agenda is, as Ridley keeps making changes and comments that can contradict other comments.

To a degree that is..... but i think maybe we need to look at it on one hand as not having these creators actually be some Benevolent Race towards our purpose as in the Bible would suggest....

But then the question is, why would they be upset with how we turned out, if they are not Benevolent anyway? 

Where does the Prometheus Myth fit in? 

Where does the Paradise Lost fit in?

Surely these mean we have at least TWO FACTIONS with maybe different Agendas towards us... Two kinds of Hierarchy maybe as we could see in Titan/Olympian or God/Angels or Annunaki/Igigi  and thus Mankind/Androids.

"TC: It all depends on your interpretation.  I was one of those people brought up in a fundalmetalist Christian home.  I was taught a very literal interpretation of the Bible, as described by BD.  So to these folks, God being an "extraterrestrial" is gonna freak them out.  They ain't gonna stand for it.  But it would seem you have a much more liberal interpretation of it, which would allow for a Ridley theory."

well think about a movie like independence day...what is that film REALLY about? also, i find your use of the term liberal problematic and i want you to qualify it in terms of how my approach is 'liberal.    

@BD

Development 

One of the audacious elements of the Engineer mythos is they are more involved in our development than our own myths. Our gods have withdrawn to leave us to fulfil the story we are in where as the Engineers tinker. They seeded and then returned when we were Cro Magnon (Caves) and later still more developed cultures (Sumarian etc). Mankind may well have been moving along quite nicely but its the Engineers who wanted to break out from their bondage. The matrix elements were possibly sanctioned behaviour repeated visits to LV223 but at some point the Engineers not us stole the fire and began re ordering things. This is a common theme in creation myths that Angels get to big for their boots and start interfering with the design. In this mechanistic world that Ridley has created altering the design is probably a huge big deal.    

Punishment 

The punishment was the consequence of the Engineers playing with fire. Would the hierarchy have sanctioned a world view where we and other species were radically transformed by the Zeno strain I think not. The zeno strain is an accident which has bitten the Engineers on the bum. Mankind bungled along quite nicely for 2000 years whilst LV223 lay desolate destroyed by the mutagen getting out. I am cheating (The scenes of an apocalypse) well not really we know David is the sole survivor on Paradise so there has been a catastrophic event which has left the Engineers race in tatters.

So its not the hierarchy that wanted to punish us it was the Engineers who went beyond their brief and used us as play things (because they could).      

We enter, stumbling in driven by Peter Weyland's megalomania, with everyone losing their lives on LV223 except Elizabeth and in the grand scheme of things is pretty small beer. But we keep on interfering now driven by W-Y.

I am inclined to think the cosmic punishment is toward the extinct Engineers that we happen upon. What we will see in C O V E N A N T is the most interesting bit of stumbling where one of our sub creations echoes the Engineers and breaks its bondage. How will this end for David a journey to self realisation and redemption or will someone be forced once and for all through there redemption to put an end to his curiosity and his creative achievements taking the deadly cargo, now realised by Davids machinations and the juggernaut off to ….. or some thing else.  

@michelle johnston "Where we enter stumbling is with Peter Weyland's megalomania driving it"

i'm going to repeat myself here: weyland doesn't understand why death as a phenomenon must exist. he is trapped in his little world of earthly pleasures and 'power' and is blind to certain spiritual things or sufferings. have you seen the film 'there will be blood'? he is very similar to the character of daniel plainview in that, which is to say, a very intelligent, but merciless man. when he speaks to the crew members, he is in almost the same exact stance as the tarot card of the fool. now the tarot card of the fool shows a man with a dog and a satchel. the satchel contains all that he needs, should he bother checking it. weyland has become so overtaken by wealth and power, that he has forgotten his satchel, and as such, his self - which incidentally, is also the definition of 'sin' - forgetting one's self. i hope that covers it well enough.

TC:  Your approach would be liberal in that you are open to a Ridley interpretation of Biblical events, as depicted here, versus the fundamentalist or arch-conservative, who wouldn't even consider it.  Their strict interpretation of the Bible is of divine beings, not superior races.  Does that make sense?