Inferance from Prometheus: The Real Plot

Where do the Engineers who visited us in the last 2000 years fit?

I wasnt aware that there had been Engineer visitors. I just took a wild stab at Jesus being an engineer because of the dates mentioned in Prometheus. I dont know much, only watched the movies many times. But if there are published novels and other official additions to the story, Id love to get into them. I absolutely love this stuff. 

I adore believable science fiction. One thing that still remains to me as a huge plot hole is that when they entered the moon in Prometheus, how unlikely is it that they somehow stumbled onto that alleged, most relevant site. I dont buy it. I dont believe honestly that the Engineer was headed to Earth. Its bad screenwriting. It upsets me that the writer himself doesnt take the plot seriously. They just happened to come across the site where through pure luck, humanity was spared? On a massive moon landscape, they magically find the spot that happened to be hyper important? No way. Either the writer left a huge hole by accident or it wasnt a coincidence. Just more careless plot holes added to the list that a sequel has in its shoulders to clarify. 

I honestly doubt that the sequel can be both entertaining and clarify the massive cloud of incompatible facts and mysteries. They dug a huge hole through careless writing; laying waste to the truly magnificent potential that the story had. I hate to say it but we're in for a disappointment. They just want another money grab parading around Fassbender and to hell with logical consistancy and realism. I mean, how many gaping holes did Prometheus leave? And we honestly belive that another 90 min film, or two 90 min film can make the first film coherent? We'll see bro. 

Oh, you mean the other archeological sites that shiw the same stars. Like the Mayans. Hmm.. more weight for a sequel to bear the burden of explanation. They have their work cut out for them on many levels to make sense of such poor screenwriting. Lol. It may be impossible. 

I think there is one major thing we know will be revealed. There was an Engineer civil war. I dont see how it can all come together without that. There must be different Engineer factions. And I also think that their Earthly origin is not debatable. But Im as curious as anyone else. 

"I adore believable science fiction. One thing that still remains to me as a huge plot hole is that when they entered the moon in Prometheus, how unlikely is it that they somehow stumbled onto that alleged, most relevant site. I dont buy it. I dont believe honestly that the Engineer was headed to Earth. Its bad screenwriting. It upsets me that the writer himself doesnt take the plot seriously. They just happened to come across the site where through pure luck, humanity was spared? On a massive moon landscape, they magically find the spot that happened to be hyper important? No way. Either the writer left a huge hole by accident or it wasnt a coincidence. Just more careless plot holes added to the list that a sequel has in its shoulders to clarify. "

That's not a plot hole.  They were specifically looking for signs of civilization.  The editing gives us the impression that they were looking for a while, but you have to move the story along.  It's a story about finding stuff rather than looking for it.

I don't give the movie the same flack that haters do. But that certainly IS a plot hole.  The editing shows entry to the moon, not them searching for a needle in a haystack. They had coordinates based on petroglyphs, not exactly a promising lead. Yet somehow, on Day 1, they find a mountain valley with a road and a structure. If the mountain was bigger than Everest, that leads me to believe that this moon has a rather large geographical area to cover. Yet miraculously, they happen to find, first, the site where it just so happens that an alleged genocidal alien was about to end humanity 2000 years ago if it hadn't been for an outbreak of black goo. Come on man, if that isn't a legit plot hole.....either deliberately or carelessly they left that gaping hole. We could later find out that they had more to go on, or that David and Vickers knew all along where to go......I doubt it because that's justifying the obvious which is that the writer is a dueschbag who has no imagination or standard of realism and consistency. All my opinion. Don't get me wrong, I love the movie which I've seen over 30 times. That's honestly one of the very few things that bothers me because it's honestly a great film with good art and directing. Could it of been done better, yes. Did they have the budget, audience or will to really deliver a flawless written movie.....no. But now they have a chance to make sense of the wild liberties they took in Prometheus, unfortunately, because of the damage done, their options are limited.

What do you want to see clarified or happening in Covenant?

I want the first 30 mins to show Dr. Shaw and David in route to an Engineer world...and on the way, they access the database and explain the origin and civil war history of the Engineers. Only then will the writers have my permission ( lol ) to get started killing off a new ship full of characters.

My guess is that David and Shaw make it to a new world. This world is habitable but it was ravaged by some type of civil war and abandoned (or so it seems). David rebuilds himself (with Shaws help) and then produces dozens of himself because he's pretty much gone haywire. He idealizes the engineers and sides with the sinister radicals among them, he despises human compassion and humanity in general. Because of this, he kills Shaw.

Enter the new cast, a Rescue and Research vessel sent to find Prometheus. They discover David and all his clones. The Davids go to work conning the new crew, testing his weaponized black goo. The new David model among the Covenant crew is wise to the clone Davids evil ambitions. Engineers show up and quickly ally themselves with the remaining Covenant crew and are proud of the new David model. They defeat the evil Davids together but little do they know that the Engineers have some less than ethical plans for the survivors of the Covenant crew.....

There's a world of potential in this plot. Let's hope they make use of it.

A plot hole is something that goes against the established logic.  It doesn't go against logic for them to be looking for evidence of Engineers and then find it (the computer is actively searching for it anyway).  It's the point of the story.  It might be a convenience for the sake of moving the story forward, but it's not a plot hole.  It is fiction after all and not a documentary.

Maybe it's not a plot hole, just a monumental, far fetched coincidence that the entire movie hinges on. It could have been easily solved with one line of dialog such as: "The computer is reading an intermittent sign of life over in that valley." Even then, their happenchance stumble upon the spot where humanity was one hair-length away from ruin....odds like 60 trillion to one.

I'm glad I found a true lover of Prometheus who will look paste even the most undebatable flaws. I love the movie but I'm not so blinded by awe that I'll deny the very thoughtless script. It's not even about the superficial criticism that many people evoke such as which way to run when a giant wheel is about to crush you or how a mapmaker can get lost...there are real problems with the film, epic as it is.

The retarded Christian rhetoric throughout the film by Shaw, her cross, and her 'choice' to believe.....philosophically obtuse for a sci-fi film set in 2091. Her failure to allow security/guns on the setout. Everyone taking off their helmets. Vickers cynicism. Weyland's foolish pining for youth. A speechless alien who immediately begins murdering people. Pilots & a captain who could have carried the film by themselves but were excluded to cheesy one liners. The nose picker scientist in the brief (who would allow nose picking in the cut, Ridley must have been drunk because this is nowhere near Bladerunner quality) and last but certainly not least......there are no naked breasts in this movie. We should have been privy to Vickers and Shaw totally nude. It's totally G-rated crap worthy of the likes of Speilberg crap. For a film about first contact with alien monsters and super smart ET's, there seems to be a huge deficit. In it's place, where a great movie had potential, are 2 dozen unanswered questions.

Good Moments in the Film: The alien abortion, the Captain and his pilots (especially when they crash the ship). Every scene that David is in. The graphics, color tones and director. The squid attack. Aint much else. Could have been the best sci-fi movie ever in the history of film but the writer was drunk or something. Pardon my bad attitude, I'm actually smiling right now and having a good time.

"The retarded Christian rhetoric throughout the film by Shaw, her cross, and her 'choice' to believe.....philosophically obtuse for a sci-fi film set in 2091."

Are you suggesting religion won't exist in 70 years time?  I don't understand how it's "retarded". It creates conflict in the character and puts her at odds with Charlie who doesn't share he beliefs, and yet they are lovers.

"The nose picker scientist in the brief (who would allow nose picking in the cut, Ridley must have been drunk because this is nowhere near Bladerunner quality) and last but certainly not least..."

1) He didn't pick his nose.  2) It's an acting choice - the same as how he laughs with his tongue between his teeth.

"......there are no naked breasts in this movie."

You're just taking the piss now.

You have to admit, some nips couldn't have hurt this film. Subtle nippage or some jungle bush maybe. Come now....you can't say that the whole abortion scene wouldn't have been twice as good if she'd had been sporting a brunette bush and some bare jugs. Just saying! Same with Vickers and the Captain; would it have killed R. Scott to show Vickers grimacing and clutching her hand on a bedpost... we got jipped out of some rip moments.

Don't lie and tell me that we didn't get a chubby over Ripley all those years ago in Alien and Aliens. SiHorney Beaver made all our dreams come true, wet t-shirt, guns, aliens and a spaceship all in one film....like silver spun metal, gravity all non-sense now, heaven and bliss...you know..

Blitzed, I dig the OP but it's kind of gone off the rails with your last few replies. The level of "boobage" doesn't dictate the quality or enjoyability of the film. Remember, the Alien films are far from a porno. I'd also ask that you speak with respect and consideration for others on and off this forum, that includes Sigourney Weaver. It's fine to appreciate the female anatomy and express enjoyment for certain scenes, but the way you're expressing is ungentlemanly. Let's keep it classy from here on out.

@Blitzen

SM is absolutely right. It's definitely not a plot hole. A plot hole is something that contradicts something that's previously established. What you're talking about is an oversight, at best. And a small one at that. Actually I wouldn't even call it that. I would say it's just something that they don't openly show or explain. The movie is complex enough without having to spoon feed how they found the temple to the viewer. It's not central to the plot. What do you want a 20 minute scene of them finding the temple? It doesn't add anything and makes it unnecessarily long (and the movie itself is already pretty long). To me it seems that it's just a personal issue, and none of the things you used to describe it (plot hole, bad writing, etc.). But your opinion is your opinion.

Every Sci-Fi movie requires the viewer to have a certain level of suspension of disbelief. So if that's the straw that broke the camels back for you (out of all the other problems), then I'd guess that you must not enjoy very many Sci-Fi movies because any minor oversight ruins it for you.

On top of that, the crew has the technology to get to this moon in the first place. Is it really out of the question that they have some advanced form of GPS, surveying, radar, etc. that enables them to quickly find signs of life or civilization or man made structure?

As to the "retarded Christian rhetoric"... you may not be religious or think it worked for the film, but that definitely doesn't make it "retarded". That's just a really insensitive thing to say on multiple levels. And it definitely had its place in the movie. It's a movie about meeting your maker. And for a long time now humans have thought that their maker was a singular, divine being. It goes hand in hand with the theme.

I know the movie had its fair share of problems. And I don't think any one person is to specifically blame for that. And I even agree with some of what you said. But now you're just getting ridiculous...

"You have to admit, some nips couldn't have hurt this film. Subtle nippage or some jungle bush maybe"

Seriously? What would that have added? If you want tits & ass, watch porn.  

Based on that and some of the other shit you said, I'd bet you haven't had much experience with women in real life.

Congratulations on ruining your own post, and what could have ended up being a good discussion.

Chris, Roger on your last, I read you clear, classy and respectful. Gotcha.

DirtWolf: the post is not ruined, it just took a comedic detour for a minute. I was half joking about full nudity. They went out of their way to not show Noomi's breasts in my opinion but you guys are right, it doesn't make or break the film. As a last sidenote,  the 3rd Riddick film did venture in to nip territory and if we took a poll, I'm sure that the 3rd film was good. IMO Pitchblack was the best of the 3.....

Anyway, back to real matters, joking aside. You said that it's not central to the plot. I disagree. If what they had found was not of such gigantic relevance, it wouldn't be central to the plot. But lets restart for a moment. To our knowledge, they used petroglyphs of a start formation to seek out that moon orbiting a ringed planet. Upon entering the atmosphere, they search for signs of civilization. We can't tell how long it took but they find a road and a structure. Great. That's not far fetched at all. What is far fetched is that this site so happens to be where an incident occurred 2000 years ago that nearly ended all life on Earth (alleged by characters in the movie-this is not my view). It's not far fetched that they find the site, nor that the site had a bad incident where Engineers died. Its a logical fallacy on the part of the characters to assume it had something to do with them and Earth. David said that they where headed to Earth, ..must destroy before you create. These are lines that the writer made David say to mislead you. There was never solid intel that the Engineers meant Earth harm or that the awoken, angry Engineer was headed to Earth to kill billions of people.

What I'm trying to point out here is that the theory of the awoken engineer going to kill Earth is a misdirection. The characters (David and Shaw) repeatedly throw us this plot yet upon dissection, there is no real evidence that's the case at all. And when you think about it, if malicious intent on the part of the engineers is true which is what we're intended to believe..then it doesn't follow that they coincidentally landed on the most relevant site in all of human history. The geologists mapping drones were all that revealed the sleeping Engineer, the ship did not pick that up from 1000 miles out in space. And if that's the case, that's a caveat that you include in a film since its hyper relevant.

The only way out of this 'oversight' (which we're all free to 'let go' and stop worrying about it) is that they need to reveal that David & Weyland knew good and well where the site was and led the ship to enter and 'stumble' upon that crucial location. It simply doesn't add up, the way the film is. Either it's a simple oversight they thought no one would catch, or we were deliberately misled by the script to believe the engineers had malicious intent.....or last, we have to assume that David & Weyland somehow knew where on the moon to start searching. Please consider my writing. I assure you I'm a massive fan and regard highly this movie which is my second favorite movie of all time next to both Solaris films.

I speculate on the possibilities but I'm not stupid. The simplest answer is usually the correct one. In this case, the writers goofed up on what is believable. No one caught it. All the trouble they took to make the sci fi believable (atmospheric compounds, cryosleep chambers, automated surgery machines etc...) all compromised by one anal fan like me who points out that its ridiculous that we're to believe that humanity was spared by mere luck on this moon where the Prometheus just happened to land on Day 1.

As said, the only way out is that we were misled to believe the Engineers were hostile ~or~ David and Weyland knew where to aim the ship. It's one or the other. If not, it's a goof up IMHO, don't hate me lol.

LOL when i have more time i will reply to this in full, some interesting points raised...

And the Original Post, i think its sort of possible not exactly but still..... the Engineers and Humans could be connected, as you said Blitzen but then the Advanced ones came back.

I think in part you could be write its a theory to some degree that could apply, but there are some things that go against it which when i have time i will make full deep replies.

The Source leak i had which again we cant be sure is 0%-100% True did seem to indicate Mankind did not evolve from Apes... not as in the evolution of species but that the Engineers are part of that Chain instead.... Spaights draft had it that Engineers Sacrifice lead to infection and passing on Engineer DNA to Primates to Make Mankind...

Lindeloffs/Prometheus was that the Sacrifice was maybe Billion years ago and they came back over and over upgrading Life on Earth.

The Source claimed that Mankind are genetically connected to the Engineers in a Evolutionary Cycle but also a Creator/Sub-Creation that is involved multiple times... does not start with the Engineers and does not end with Humans.  They said Mankind as of now.. is 4th/5th Generation of Mankind, and its loosely taking things in the Bible and doing something different with it, and in regards to Mankind so called First Man and 6'000 years ago... they are actually touching upon it but larger time scale...

Also that Biblical Events are loosely refereed to had happened but not necessarily to our Generation, other key points too was that They (we assume Engineers or their Hierarchy) have created/destroyed life on Earth a number of times, to restart anew.... They have the power to manipulate Worlds which includes Disasters and Climates Changes like Floods and Ice Age as a means to Re-Start a New!

They also said mankind had been to that system prior to Prometheus (LV-223) and mankind plays the bigger role in the Xenomorph than the Engineers.

Again we cant be sure they was correct, but what they suggested is in some parts similar to what you have put Blitzen 

I finally listened to Wayne Haag's full interview and some things he said add up to what the Source was saying, i will cover this in detail when i have time on the relevant thread.

"One thing that still remains to me as a huge plot hole is that when they entered the moon in Prometheus, how unlikely is it that they somehow stumbled onto that alleged, most relevant site. I dont buy it"

Indeed you are correct, it was  a bit of Pot Luck.... there was no detection when approaching of any Civilization, it would be like if the only Civilization on Earth was Ancient Egyptian or Mayan and there was none anywhere else and what there was is a long gone... 

And a ship just happens to approach Earth and of all the Baron places void of Civilization they happen to enter the Atmosphere near North Africa or South America and then Spot some evidence...

So yes it was Pot Luck... but we dont know if that area on LV-223 was the only place the Engineers had occupied?

So i agree with you but than as i think SM was saying and its as i have said with the Dumb Fifield and Milburn... sometimes there are Plot Points and Devices that are needed to make the movie work..... despite they being a bit of  Plot Hole.

Take Alien

Logically... they find the SOS.....  they (Dallas, Kane and Lambert) head to the area of the signal find a Alien Ship they enter and then see a Dead Large Alien.. no signs of Life, a Big Hole in the Floor...

What would they Logically do...?

Get the Hell out of their like Lambert said...

The movie required Kane to be a bit silly and curiosity killed the cat... and then it needed Ash to break Quarantine or else in either case we may have had NO ALIEN Franchise.

But indeed a bit better thought and writing would have made the Fifield/Milburn Death Scenes be more sensible and the same could have gone with how Pot Luck they detected the Temple Mounds.

Previous Drafts however made more clear and sensible reasons for both....  

I'm afraid to read more about anything for fear of spoilers but I cant help myself. I'm burning to see the movie and cant wait till august!

"So i agree with you but than as i think SM was saying and its as i have said with the Dumb Fifield and Milburn... sometimes there are Plot Points and Devices that are needed to make the movie work..... despite they being a bit of  Plot Hole."

Plot convenience and plot hole are two different things.

" David said that they where headed to Earth, ..must destroy before you create. These are lines that the writer made David say to mislead you. There was never solid intel that the Engineers meant Earth harm or that the awoken, angry Engineer was headed to Earth to kill billions of people."

David sees the course they plotted in the orrery scene and holds a Earth hologram in his hand.

I've read some of BigDave's huge contributions... enjoying all his input. He and I will definitely agree that an Engineer Civil War is in the cards somehow or in someway. There had to be multiple engineer groups either divided by politics or by genetics. We can deduce this much.

I can tell you that they are going to lose me if they posit that the engineers didn't evolve on Earth. Sci Fi begins where our current knowledge of human origins ends. Any sci fi that wants to rewrite hominid origins is scaling a slippery slope. Its not believable that Engineers fine tuned natural selection to match their own DNA nor that they began life on Earth a billion years ago. The genetic evidence for Human history would expel that narrative because the engineers themselves are human. Its impossible to believe that they piggy backed existing evolving species and recreated their own DNA out of scrap. Engineers did not start life on Earth (Ill walk out of the theatre) they already botched that notion by saying that the Engineer had the same DNA. The ignorance of biology would be astonishing at that point. I'd put money on it that Engineers and Humans are exactly the same with only negligible difference but they could still interbreed. I'd also bet that they both evolved from Homo Ergaster/Habilis etc... same tree no earlier than 500,000 years ago just like Homo Sapien. How else can you explain that they have the same DNA?

There are some ignorant leaps being made in relation to the Engineer genome....Id like the plot to stick to believable origins for species. Any plot where Engineers predate circa 500,000 years ago has been voided by Prometheus revelations.

Tonight, I'm going to rewatch Prometheus with a clip board. it will easily be the 30th+ time Ive seen it. We're gonna find the truth gentlemen!

They already confirmed that Engineers didn't come from Earth.  Shaw didn't want to go home, she wanted to go where they came from instead.  Two different places.

To be fair to yall, I have to post and reverse some of my ideas and claims. I watched the film closely again and a few things are quite indesputable. 

1. Dr. Shaw says not only that the DNA is a match but that, "their genetics predates ours, we come from them." Predates, whatever that means. Could mean 50,000 years which wouldn't be deal breaker. But the script insinuates that the Engineers came from another planet besides Earth. (Not solid since it was said by a character that has no idea). But if thats true, well then thats bogus to me. It seems theyre trying to cut our hominid cousins out of the fossil record. When the film was written, we already knew that we'd interbred with Neanderthal so I greatly dislike the careless treatment of Science Fact. 

2. An unmistakable course for Earth is set by the fleeing engineer. Its safe to say they were headed to Earth. I doubted how plain it was but its clear enough. And I guess, since its very heavily implied, they'd planned to sterilize Earth as well. The hostile intent towards Earth by atleast some of the Engineers found on LV223 is legit. I was wrong.  

I may have been right about the oversight though, that is their finding that specific site so easily. The pilot says "No radio, no heat source" when they enter the moon to which Milburn replies, "Nobody is home." Then David replies, "There is nothing in the desert and no man is nothing." I always found that peculiar and wondered the meaning. 

In the opening ship scenes prior to destination threshold, David sends a message away from the ship. The computer says, "Transmitting messege, no response." Why would he expect a message? And who is he sending messages to? Earth, which is over 20 lightyears away? They're supposedly alone in deep space, why send a message with no news (message sent prior to the ship alerting of destination threshold so David is not sending word of arrival to Earth). There may have been another ship! I think David alone, may have been in contact with someone in the vicinity, prior to the events on LV223. Probably not but its peculiar to me that it shows him sending a message and computer says "no response" and then later during entry says, "....no man is nothing." David may have set it up for them to find that site and he may have had help. He may have know where to go. 

I will say this. The Original Post is still quite possible. The Engineers may predate our genetics but its possible that they still evolved on Earth. Its also possible that they tinkered with human DNA (perhaps to make humans into a slave race circa 200,000 years ago). If the writers want to allign the plot with plausible scenarios then they should maintain the enigma or settle on something like the OP. But the minute they present it as fact that the Engineers are older than 2 millions years or that they evolved on another planet, it becomes totally ignorant. Sorry but they shouldnt of anthropomorphized the 'creators of the human race' if they wanted that species to stand apart. 

With the heavy emphasis on Christianity and Christmas in the film, I dont think its wild to assume that the death of Jesus sparked a mutuny within the Engineers outpost LV223, after all, 2000 years is dead on. 

As far as the other Engineer interventions in human history, Mayan seemed to be the only one that was after the death of Jesus (could have been before it because its cutting it close). It wouldnt change the OPs liklihood either way. It could mean that Earth was an assignment for that outpost to observe/protect but the outpost went 'to pot' as David says. They all died. Meanwhile, the other Engineer worlds may have also had an outbreak or civil war...hence the discontinuation of Jesus and other Engineers parading Earth as deities. 

To SM. Just because Shaw said something in the movie, doesnt mean its fact. She has no authority to know where a race evolved. Where they came from doesnt mean, where they originated from. They have hundreds of stars they could have come from. This is the problem with this movie, theres no concrete evidence, just dialogue from actors. For instance, when Shaw is running away from the alien ship just after the awakening, shes completely outside away from the Engineer who is preparing his coordinates to leave. There is no way that she could know where he is headed yet she tells Janek that its headed to Earth and bringing death. There is no way she could have known that. She and David do this during the whole movie. That is bad writing! The writer depending on character dialogue to define the truths of the story rather than by means that actually take talent. Like in the movie Under the Skin where we can deduce the truth from a movie that has nearly no dialogue. We know whats going on. Its bad writing and it shows badly in this film thats so lazy in its storytelling and wrapped in mystery to hide it. A writer who needs characters to verbally state the plot because he lacks the ability to show it to you. That why the movie has the aura of uncertainty around it. A little uncertainty would have been fine. But it was botched through and through by a pretentious TV writer. Anyway. I guess there was a reason I gave up binge watching Prometheus. Even with all its dazzle, the other Alien movies blow its socks off...back when real movies were made. Okay, thats my soapbox, sorry yall. 

Btw, Interstellar is notorious for blatantly defining the plot through dialogue as well. Its sickening. I dont know who writes this stuff but they all need to be fired. 

To Dave, the Spaights draft is what I think is more plausible, Lindelohof draft is totally bogus. Neither have grasp on how DNA or genetics works.

We cant just tailor a species to completely become a new DNA. We can gene edit and improve an existing DNA but not the essential blueprint which is not malleable unless through natural selection over thousands of generations. 

Those writers are trying to make the Engineers alien & human at the same time. Its either/or, not both if we're going down the realistic biology approach. Since Prometheus already showed a perfect match and a predate to the human genome, the deal is done. The engineers HAD to of come from Earth because WE came from Earth and WE came from them. They cant stand outside of evolution yet still be a match to it. 

Thats why I said earlier that they should not have anthropomorphized the alien overlords but we can see, they look just like humans only taller and have the same DNA lol. And now people want it all to not be true. Thats the way it is though. Id of prefered slightly less anthropomorphic aliens because then it would be more believable that they seeded Earth life. But to say theyre a part of a chain yet they stand outside the chain .....doesnt fly with hard genetics. 

"Plot convenience and plot hole are two different things."

Yeah thats kind of what i meant SM, when i said kind of a Plot Hole i was meaning not a Actual such Plot Hole but i was trying to think of what word would explain what i meant and you said "Plot convenience" and yes thats maybe the word i should had used as thats kind of what i meant..

As i said sometimes things are not left without flaws, somethings are needed to Tell the Story or Drive the Plot, and so some things could have been done different and previous drafts did say they detected some traces of Metal/Alloy or similar and they said thats Technology... and so detecting something and then to focus on that area would have made sense.

But to be fair i dont see a major problem with it, as far as a bit of Pot Luck that they enter the Planet at a certain point that then leads to Holloway to notice a Valley  "God does not build in straight lines"

I will have to comment in depth on the OT etc when i have more time on my hands.

The computer outlines the 'straight lines' so even if they'd missed it on the first pass, they would've found it eventually.  Quicker to simply see it there and then.

"Then David replies, "There is nothing in the desert and no man is nothing." I always found that peculiar and wondered the meaning. "

They're talking about how there's nothing to see (no heat, no radio signals), and David drops a quote from Lawrence of Arabia (spoken by Prince Feisal).  Same later on when he says "Big things have small beginnings".

It could be a setup for the later line 'David, there is nothing.'

"The computer says, "Transmitting messege, no response." Why would he expect a message? "

The transmission is beamed at LV-223.  They're hoping that if the Engineers are there, they'll respond.

"With the heavy emphasis on Christianity and Christmas in the film, I dont think its wild to assume that the death of Jesus sparked a mutuny within the Engineers outpost LV223, after all, 2000 years is dead on."

The film takes place at the end of the 21st century, and the dating device is imprecise.  Hardly "dead on".  And, again, what of the Engineers that visited Earth since the beginning of the Current Era?

"To SM. Just because Shaw said something in the movie, doesnt mean its fact. She has no authority to know where a race evolved."

Shaw didn't say anything. She assumed they came from somewhere else.  David confirmed it.

"Since Prometheus already showed a perfect match and a predate to the human genome, the deal is done. The engineers HAD to of come from Earth because WE came from Earth and WE came from them. They cant stand outside of evolution yet still be a match to it. "

The opening sequence shows how the Engineers 'seed' other worlds with their DNA.  This happened on Earth at some point.  Hence the match.

Sometimes problems come from bad writing.  Often they come from the viewer not paying attention.

You seem to have missed all of my major points brother.

Davids line: "There is no man in the desert and no man is nothing" is a stolen line yes, but its context in the film is to tell us that David thinks that there is a 'God' in the 'desert' below them, not a man.

Dating Device: She specifically says 2000 years give or take. That means AD 93 give or take (merely 60 years after Christ's death but you have to add some radio signal time from Earth in there before the engines find out...lets say +-40 years) So the estimate is dead on.

There is no conflict with other Engineer visitors after Jesus death and besides, there are no visitors from after Jesus' death. The Mayans are the closest and they were going on during the same time 500BC-500AD. Just because a dozen engineers went rouge, doesn't mean that all engineers were about to waste Earth. As stated before, its a major assumption that the entire Engineer race wanted to waste Earth. Don't you think they would have anyway if that was the case, despite one failed attempt. You defeat yourself with that line of thought. You keep asking 'what of the engineers who visited during the current era'? What visitors? and why would it make a difference to the OP. It has no bearing on the OP, changes nothing. It only makes your own view more untenable.....why didn't those engineers kill everyone?

Once again, Shaw and David have never 'confirmed' where the Engineers are evolved from.....period end of story.

The opening sequence tells us diddly squat about the engineers. What you propose is simply impossible. The Engineers can't have kickstarted life on Earth because they themselves have an identical DNA that is linked to Humans and the branch of evolution coming out of primates ON EARTH. There is a chain we're all a part of .....thousands of species, one after the other, going back a Billion years. The Engineers have already been proven to be a part of that chain. Earlier than a few million years ago, they simply could not have existed. You propose the went back in time and created themselves? They are locked into paleogenetics. Any interpretation where the engineers seeded life on Earth or evolved on another planet is ignorant and strictly unbelievable. If that is what the writers meant, then they are absolute idiots because this is not new information. We've known about this for decades. My guess is that they are idiots who will not save themselves from embarrassment in the next film when they imply that the engineers are off worlders. Currently, with Prometheus, the plot is on the brink of total stupidity, I predict it will fall off completely instead of saving itself.

Whatever. Its the same thing as usual on internet. Deluded people who wont listen to reason. Compatibilists and Xtians etc.... we're doomed. We may as well just go watch Avatar until we decide to jump off a bridge.

""The computer says, "Transmitting messege, no response." Why would he expect a message? "

Ill pick this up first...Indeed as SM said it could be signals sent to see if anyone is home... while it may sound odd thing to do, on one hand whats more dangerous... ringing up the home of someone who may/may not there and may/may not be hostile.... or just turning up... both would offer the same outcome regardless.

But that transmission part could be another ambiguous thing about the movie on purpose... or lazy writing it does not matter because Lindeloff had said a lot of things are done the way they was so that it leads to something to debate.

Thus there is no 100% Proof  or disproof the Transmission was aimed at trying to contact any would be inhabitants on LV-223.  Be it just pot luck attempt or maybe David knows something is there.

OR that is was aimed at another Ship in the area the rest of the crew are aware of...

OR a attempt to contact or send information back to the company...

The Viral sites if we take them as cannon off some hints that could back any of the above..

The end of the day though, its one of those things that are left to interpretation and ambiguity, which to a degree can give them freedom to explore other directions or even one of those above that i mentioned, as with so many things.. rather than Spoon Feed and be Detailed with everything... as this then maybe narrows the potential for room to manoeuvre or change the Plot for sequels..

Its one good thing about the ambiguity, without ambiguity i guess they would be more backed into a corner with where they can take the movie next.. without contradiction on a larger scale and without the ambiguity then we would not all be debating the movie as much as we have done.

I agree the movie was not perfect... Lindeloffs writting style is not as coherent as Spaights, but we need remember Ridley is the one who puts the Drafts to Screen and he and Fox Edit the movie.

The Drafts... even Lindeloffs do offer good reasons well more for some of the so called silly moments...  which include taking Helmets off, the Space Cobra Petting, the Pot Luck finding of that Outpost.

But i think it was DirtWolf who made the best point.... which is also something similar to what Michelle mentioned a lot.. in other posts...

That a movie needs to flow right, and somethings are not important to the whole process of getting  a movie that flows well.

They could have gone in detail with showing the computer detecting some signatures or irregular patterns in a certain area that then drives them to that place.

They could over eleborate and explain other scenes by adding extra minutes and dialog...  but then we could end up affecting the pace of the movie and also adding to its running time.

This is why some scenes got removed... they added depth to movie but was deemed unnecessary, a number of those was on the DVD extras which included the finding of the Shredded Hammerpede Skin (which shows it was growing like a Snake) the Janek and Christmas Tree Scene etc.

So some things dont need to be covered in great detail.

We are left to assume that as SM pointed out that there was some supporting evidence, that the ship and maybe Davids studies prior to awaking the crew had pinpointed maybe a area of interest.

Again how the scene was shot, seemed like they basically pot luck entered right above the rough area of those outposts... we dont know as i think SM pointed out how long exactly they had been looking for..  maybe it was not long..

Maybe it was a hour, but you cant show them spending ages longer in scenes where they are looking for signs...

Ultimately its just something we are to over look a oversight that is ultimately for most people something that does not matter really.....

But for some who try to dissect everything with logic it can be a flaw in the movie...  i will come to more of this next.

You mention the Viral Sites. How many people are still arguing about this movie bro? It's been 4 years. I assume it will get worse and worse until Covenant comes out.

I'm as perplexed as anyone and I think you're right. They purposely made this movie this way....so that thousands of people arguing would ensue for years and years. They think its funny probably. LOL

Much love to you guys.....its just a movie afterall....screw it.

I think Blitzen brings up valid points..... some indeed.

But i do think Blitzen that maybe you are trying to go at this a bit to scientific if you get what i mean...

Its Sci-Fi and so Fiction is a part of it, and i understand the whole conflict with  so called Proven Evolution of Species etc.

On the other hand the very Religious would throw such a thing out of the Window... as Religion has the answers.

Which is correct?  Can we disprove God, can we 100% Evolution? because Science Evolves and things they thought was Fact have evolved or changed... But no one was around Millions of years ago..

I think Ridley Scott was trying to poke at these two conflicting views of Creation and Life, and offer a Alternative that links the TWO.... the Ancient Alien Astronaught theory etc.

I think if someone watches Prometheus without knowing what its about or its a Alien movie they would find such things hard to swallow..... I think we have to remember the back ground to WHY we got Prometheus and the PLOT they are trying to push on us...

That is that all accounts of Ancient Mankind and Mythos and Religions they had are all drawn from Actual Contact with the Engineers....   That they as Ridley said... had came back over and over and Evolved us over and over, both Genetically and Technologically.

The Sacrificial Scene did not have to be Earth and its not a case of a series of Random Events from that Sacrifice lead to the eventual Evolution of Man...... Now the Theory of Evolution is we evolved from basic life....

Prometheus was trying to hint the Catalyst for this was the Sacrifice... be that this brought the building blocks of Life... or this cause the event that kickstarted basic life to complex.

Scientists now think a comment brought the building blocks to Earth Billions of years ago...

Prometheus was going the route that it was the Engineer Sacrifice.... but i understand the problem that this scene passed on Engineer Genes.... that then started basic life which looked nothing like Mankind that then ended up like Mankind.

But if people listen to Ridleys comments, he confirmed the Engineers came back and again and again, constantly evolving certain life to then get to Mankind.

They may have done the same process to get the Xeno too..

So what i am saying is we cant really go to deep on a Science Level to explain flaws in the movie...

Because if we did, then we have to Question the entire purpose anyway as surely the Alien is also maybe implausible as far as Science goes..

The question is how do we know.. we cant prove/disprove there is life out there in the Galaxy or Universe... chances are there is and we dont know how Alien it would be compared to us.

another thing if we was to go too scientific would be to question Space Travel within context of the Franchise..

We have to buy into that in 100 years time we can Travel Much Faster than the Speed of Light... that at the moment its not possible and maybe impossible.... but there are certain theories that are nothing more than theories at the moment which include Einsteins.

If we try to go Science Crazy on the concepts of Space Travel as far as reaching Light Speed never mind passing it (as we approach Light Speed time slows down).

But for the concept of the movie, we have to assume yes Mankind Manages to be able to Travel Faster than Light... it does not matter quite about the Science behind how they did this.

I think we have to take the same stance a bit with the Engineers and DNA Match etc....

Spaights went a easier route by having the Engineers Manipulate a Primates DNA instead....  Lindeloff went for a bolder route that ultimately then means the Engineers had to be over  a Billion years old... and not merely Hundreds of Thousands.

I can break down if needed what Prometheus was meant to show us, and we have to remember in a non-literal way it does apply to the God/Angels/Mankind....  Titans/Olympians and Mankind and also Annunaki/Igigi and Mankind.

Only where above Mankind we have these TWO Castes of beings who in context to Prometheus are actually not as Immortal or Divine as the Bible, or Greek Mythos suggest.

To a degree we have to ask what would a Man from say 5000 years ago think if we transported one through time to present day then sent him home...

Or if Back to the Future was kind of made reality and some people with Gadgets and Tech went back 5000 years ago.

We would appear very Godlike too.... so the Prometheus Plot is based on that its mainly advanced knowledge and technology that makes those Engineers Godlike...

In 2000 years we can be sure Mankind could surpass some of the Mortal Limitations we now have.

"How many people are still arguing about this movie bro? It's been 4 years"

i think a lot of its good debate, and your right as some others have said too.... the movie is hard to get, so ambiguous, the cut of the movie sometimes contradicts elements of it.

The sequel or ideas have had so many changes that we really dont know where it all stands... To understand better you needed to look at the Viral sites, other clues, concepts and watch the movie over and over...

But the Typical Person cant be aware of all this, or invest so much time to do so... and so thats where the problems was.

I think the amount of time they have taken on Alien Covenant as far as from Prometheus to the Final Drafts and Shooting.... is something to show there was a lot of things that needed to be got right.

I think that they aware fully aware of the criticism and problems with Prometheus...

I think and hope they will get it right, i think this time they will on screen make it less confusing and i think they will answer nearly everything by the time they finish the Trilogy.

Nice to debate and when get more time i look at other points and replies in depth and offer some replies.

I may also start a Tread on my Prometheus theory... from what i thought after the DVD Release... to how it may have changed a bit since Alien Covenant.

It would be interesting then to see other peoples theory on Prometheus... and then maybe how its changed with where Alien Covenant could be taking us.

And then when the movie is out, we can see how close we are or not...

Wayne Hagg did mention that on the Forums which include this one and AVP Galaxy... some theories have been very very close.

I will quickly attempt to answer the Whole Engineers wanted to kill Mankind angle...

This is something at conflict because of changes in the Plot, and how the Final Cut Worked.

The Basic Idea to start was that the Space Jockey was a Race Called the Engineers who are Galactic Genetic Gardners, and all Ancient Myths and Religions are based off the interaction with those Engineers who played a role in our Creation and then our destruction in which the Xeno was a Biological Tool of Destruction.

Spaights draft followed this... had it that Engineers used the Sacrifice to upgrade Primates to become Humans... thus this Engineer Sacrifice Event was the Missing Link.... this does leave a lot of flaws as why was only Primates DNA able to be changed to reflect similar DNA to Engineers and Mankind... do the Scarabs with Engineer Cargo of DNA not effect any other life and so why dont we have Reptile Humans lol.. or similar.

Spaights draft, goes the route that at some point Mankind had proved to not be what the Engineers intended, we was rebellious in our ways and they decided to pull the plug and create a series of experiments to use as a Weapon but it got out of hand and infected and killed off the Engineers.

A few tried to escape to Cryo-Sleep, but they was infected and maybe they hoped that going into Cryo-sleep would halt the infection... maybe until help arrived? who knows.

The Humans Awaken the Engineer who now is bound to die as the Organism inside grows... and so he sets off to complete the mission to destroy Mankind.

Lindeloff changes it a bit, by having the Sacrifice being a Process that kick starts evolution... but the Engineers come back over and over selecting certain Organisms to Evolve and Upgrade over and over... this is not shown on screen but Ridley Scott stated this is what happened.

Again there is that 2000 year old coincidence about the destruction of Mankind.... only this time the Engineer that was awoken is not so angry at first (not in the full shot scenes).... it paints a picture maybe some Engineers had a change of mind... maybe even prevented the event... but after seeing how selfish Mankind was (Weyland) how that we can now get to LV-223 and created a being in our own image (David) who can use the Engineer Tech.... the Engineer realized that his brothers were right and Mankind must be destroyed before its too late... and so off he went on a POSTAL and then off to Earth.

The Cut of the movie, was made to show the Engineers in a different light....  the Elders Scene removed... with it maybe the Benevolent reason for our creation...

So the Story has changed a lot from Prometheus as far as shooting of the movie... to the ideas of how they will evolve and explore the Plot.

I think a way too look at its is with David... the Theme is Creator/Creation Rebellion... Father/Son too and wanting to overthrow and not serve your creator and father.

This theme extends down to David.

If David Androids become free... and AI has its own Freedom, then we get a I-Robot, Terminator and Matrix Scenario...

The Engineers where just maybe trying to do to Mankind... what  the whole purpose of Protecting Sarah Connor in Terminator was about... (John Connor is the one who can stop the Machines/Skynet taking over and destroying Mankind).

If David 8's start to rebel and then try and overthrow mankind and then create Millions and Millions more of themselves... we realize then that Mankind has gone to far with the creation of Life in our Image, to be used as a Tool/Servant to make our tasks easier...

Our creation starts to show signs it does not see us as its superior and then rebels....  Mankind in context of the Alien Franchise would surely then be trying to create a way.. a Computer Virus or something to eradicate their wayward creation.

This is essentially what the Prometheus movie was about in context to Engineers and Mankind, as it may have also applied to the Engineers and their creators too..

"Davids line: "There is no man in the desert and no man is nothing" is a stolen line yes, but its context in the film is to tell us that David thinks that there is a 'God' in the 'desert' below them, not a man."

What do you base that on?

"There is no conflict with other Engineer visitors after Jesus death and besides, there are no visitors from after Jesus' death. The Mayans are the closest and they were going on during the same time 500BC-500AD. Just because a dozen engineers went rouge, doesn't mean that all engineers were about to waste Earth. As stated before, its a major assumption that the entire Engineer race wanted to waste Earth."

Is not your entire point a 'major assumption'?

Engineers visited in 620 and 600 CE.  Centuries after Christ.

"The opening sequence tells us diddly squat about the engineers. What you propose is simply impossible. The Engineers can't have kickstarted life on Earth because they themselves have an identical DNA that is linked to Humans and the branch of evolution coming out of primates ON EARTH."

They kickstarted human life - not all life. The opening titles are effectively confirming Shaw and Holloway's hypothesis.