Inferance from Prometheus: The Real Plot

Where do the Engineers who visited us in the last 2000 years fit?

I wasnt aware that there had been Engineer visitors. I just took a wild stab at Jesus being an engineer because of the dates mentioned in Prometheus. I dont know much, only watched the movies many times. But if there are published novels and other official additions to the story, Id love to get into them. I absolutely love this stuff. 

I adore believable science fiction. One thing that still remains to me as a huge plot hole is that when they entered the moon in Prometheus, how unlikely is it that they somehow stumbled onto that alleged, most relevant site. I dont buy it. I dont believe honestly that the Engineer was headed to Earth. Its bad screenwriting. It upsets me that the writer himself doesnt take the plot seriously. They just happened to come across the site where through pure luck, humanity was spared? On a massive moon landscape, they magically find the spot that happened to be hyper important? No way. Either the writer left a huge hole by accident or it wasnt a coincidence. Just more careless plot holes added to the list that a sequel has in its shoulders to clarify. 

I honestly doubt that the sequel can be both entertaining and clarify the massive cloud of incompatible facts and mysteries. They dug a huge hole through careless writing; laying waste to the truly magnificent potential that the story had. I hate to say it but we're in for a disappointment. They just want another money grab parading around Fassbender and to hell with logical consistancy and realism. I mean, how many gaping holes did Prometheus leave? And we honestly belive that another 90 min film, or two 90 min film can make the first film coherent? We'll see bro. 

Oh, you mean the other archeological sites that shiw the same stars. Like the Mayans. Hmm.. more weight for a sequel to bear the burden of explanation. They have their work cut out for them on many levels to make sense of such poor screenwriting. Lol. It may be impossible. 

I think there is one major thing we know will be revealed. There was an Engineer civil war. I dont see how it can all come together without that. There must be different Engineer factions. And I also think that their Earthly origin is not debatable. But Im as curious as anyone else. 

"I adore believable science fiction. One thing that still remains to me as a huge plot hole is that when they entered the moon in Prometheus, how unlikely is it that they somehow stumbled onto that alleged, most relevant site. I dont buy it. I dont believe honestly that the Engineer was headed to Earth. Its bad screenwriting. It upsets me that the writer himself doesnt take the plot seriously. They just happened to come across the site where through pure luck, humanity was spared? On a massive moon landscape, they magically find the spot that happened to be hyper important? No way. Either the writer left a huge hole by accident or it wasnt a coincidence. Just more careless plot holes added to the list that a sequel has in its shoulders to clarify. "

That's not a plot hole.  They were specifically looking for signs of civilization.  The editing gives us the impression that they were looking for a while, but you have to move the story along.  It's a story about finding stuff rather than looking for it.

I don't give the movie the same flack that haters do. But that certainly IS a plot hole.  The editing shows entry to the moon, not them searching for a needle in a haystack. They had coordinates based on petroglyphs, not exactly a promising lead. Yet somehow, on Day 1, they find a mountain valley with a road and a structure. If the mountain was bigger than Everest, that leads me to believe that this moon has a rather large geographical area to cover. Yet miraculously, they happen to find, first, the site where it just so happens that an alleged genocidal alien was about to end humanity 2000 years ago if it hadn't been for an outbreak of black goo. Come on man, if that isn't a legit plot hole.....either deliberately or carelessly they left that gaping hole. We could later find out that they had more to go on, or that David and Vickers knew all along where to go......I doubt it because that's justifying the obvious which is that the writer is a dueschbag who has no imagination or standard of realism and consistency. All my opinion. Don't get me wrong, I love the movie which I've seen over 30 times. That's honestly one of the very few things that bothers me because it's honestly a great film with good art and directing. Could it of been done better, yes. Did they have the budget, audience or will to really deliver a flawless written movie.....no. But now they have a chance to make sense of the wild liberties they took in Prometheus, unfortunately, because of the damage done, their options are limited.

What do you want to see clarified or happening in Covenant?

I want the first 30 mins to show Dr. Shaw and David in route to an Engineer world...and on the way, they access the database and explain the origin and civil war history of the Engineers. Only then will the writers have my permission ( lol ) to get started killing off a new ship full of characters.

My guess is that David and Shaw make it to a new world. This world is habitable but it was ravaged by some type of civil war and abandoned (or so it seems). David rebuilds himself (with Shaws help) and then produces dozens of himself because he's pretty much gone haywire. He idealizes the engineers and sides with the sinister radicals among them, he despises human compassion and humanity in general. Because of this, he kills Shaw.

Enter the new cast, a Rescue and Research vessel sent to find Prometheus. They discover David and all his clones. The Davids go to work conning the new crew, testing his weaponized black goo. The new David model among the Covenant crew is wise to the clone Davids evil ambitions. Engineers show up and quickly ally themselves with the remaining Covenant crew and are proud of the new David model. They defeat the evil Davids together but little do they know that the Engineers have some less than ethical plans for the survivors of the Covenant crew.....

There's a world of potential in this plot. Let's hope they make use of it.

A plot hole is something that goes against the established logic.  It doesn't go against logic for them to be looking for evidence of Engineers and then find it (the computer is actively searching for it anyway).  It's the point of the story.  It might be a convenience for the sake of moving the story forward, but it's not a plot hole.  It is fiction after all and not a documentary.

Maybe it's not a plot hole, just a monumental, far fetched coincidence that the entire movie hinges on. It could have been easily solved with one line of dialog such as: "The computer is reading an intermittent sign of life over in that valley." Even then, their happenchance stumble upon the spot where humanity was one hair-length away from ruin....odds like 60 trillion to one.

I'm glad I found a true lover of Prometheus who will look paste even the most undebatable flaws. I love the movie but I'm not so blinded by awe that I'll deny the very thoughtless script. It's not even about the superficial criticism that many people evoke such as which way to run when a giant wheel is about to crush you or how a mapmaker can get lost...there are real problems with the film, epic as it is.

The retarded Christian rhetoric throughout the film by Shaw, her cross, and her 'choice' to believe.....philosophically obtuse for a sci-fi film set in 2091. Her failure to allow security/guns on the setout. Everyone taking off their helmets. Vickers cynicism. Weyland's foolish pining for youth. A speechless alien who immediately begins murdering people. Pilots & a captain who could have carried the film by themselves but were excluded to cheesy one liners. The nose picker scientist in the brief (who would allow nose picking in the cut, Ridley must have been drunk because this is nowhere near Bladerunner quality) and last but certainly not least......there are no naked breasts in this movie. We should have been privy to Vickers and Shaw totally nude. It's totally G-rated crap worthy of the likes of Speilberg crap. For a film about first contact with alien monsters and super smart ET's, there seems to be a huge deficit. In it's place, where a great movie had potential, are 2 dozen unanswered questions.

Good Moments in the Film: The alien abortion, the Captain and his pilots (especially when they crash the ship). Every scene that David is in. The graphics, color tones and director. The squid attack. Aint much else. Could have been the best sci-fi movie ever in the history of film but the writer was drunk or something. Pardon my bad attitude, I'm actually smiling right now and having a good time.

"The retarded Christian rhetoric throughout the film by Shaw, her cross, and her 'choice' to believe.....philosophically obtuse for a sci-fi film set in 2091."

Are you suggesting religion won't exist in 70 years time?  I don't understand how it's "retarded". It creates conflict in the character and puts her at odds with Charlie who doesn't share he beliefs, and yet they are lovers.

"The nose picker scientist in the brief (who would allow nose picking in the cut, Ridley must have been drunk because this is nowhere near Bladerunner quality) and last but certainly not least..."

1) He didn't pick his nose.  2) It's an acting choice - the same as how he laughs with his tongue between his teeth.

"......there are no naked breasts in this movie."

You're just taking the piss now.

You have to admit, some nips couldn't have hurt this film. Subtle nippage or some jungle bush maybe. Come now....you can't say that the whole abortion scene wouldn't have been twice as good if she'd had been sporting a brunette bush and some bare jugs. Just saying! Same with Vickers and the Captain; would it have killed R. Scott to show Vickers grimacing and clutching her hand on a bedpost... we got jipped out of some rip moments.

Don't lie and tell me that we didn't get a chubby over Ripley all those years ago in Alien and Aliens. SiHorney Beaver made all our dreams come true, wet t-shirt, guns, aliens and a spaceship all in one film....like silver spun metal, gravity all non-sense now, heaven and bliss...you know..

Blitzed, I dig the OP but it's kind of gone off the rails with your last few replies. The level of "boobage" doesn't dictate the quality or enjoyability of the film. Remember, the Alien films are far from a porno. I'd also ask that you speak with respect and consideration for others on and off this forum, that includes Sigourney Weaver. It's fine to appreciate the female anatomy and express enjoyment for certain scenes, but the way you're expressing is ungentlemanly. Let's keep it classy from here on out.

@Blitzen

SM is absolutely right. It's definitely not a plot hole. A plot hole is something that contradicts something that's previously established. What you're talking about is an oversight, at best. And a small one at that. Actually I wouldn't even call it that. I would say it's just something that they don't openly show or explain. The movie is complex enough without having to spoon feed how they found the temple to the viewer. It's not central to the plot. What do you want a 20 minute scene of them finding the temple? It doesn't add anything and makes it unnecessarily long (and the movie itself is already pretty long). To me it seems that it's just a personal issue, and none of the things you used to describe it (plot hole, bad writing, etc.). But your opinion is your opinion.

Every Sci-Fi movie requires the viewer to have a certain level of suspension of disbelief. So if that's the straw that broke the camels back for you (out of all the other problems), then I'd guess that you must not enjoy very many Sci-Fi movies because any minor oversight ruins it for you.

On top of that, the crew has the technology to get to this moon in the first place. Is it really out of the question that they have some advanced form of GPS, surveying, radar, etc. that enables them to quickly find signs of life or civilization or man made structure?

As to the "retarded Christian rhetoric"... you may not be religious or think it worked for the film, but that definitely doesn't make it "retarded". That's just a really insensitive thing to say on multiple levels. And it definitely had its place in the movie. It's a movie about meeting your maker. And for a long time now humans have thought that their maker was a singular, divine being. It goes hand in hand with the theme.

I know the movie had its fair share of problems. And I don't think any one person is to specifically blame for that. And I even agree with some of what you said. But now you're just getting ridiculous...

"You have to admit, some nips couldn't have hurt this film. Subtle nippage or some jungle bush maybe"

Seriously? What would that have added? If you want tits & ass, watch porn.  

Based on that and some of the other shit you said, I'd bet you haven't had much experience with women in real life.

Congratulations on ruining your own post, and what could have ended up being a good discussion.

Chris, Roger on your last, I read you clear, classy and respectful. Gotcha.

DirtWolf: the post is not ruined, it just took a comedic detour for a minute. I was half joking about full nudity. They went out of their way to not show Noomi's breasts in my opinion but you guys are right, it doesn't make or break the film. As a last sidenote,  the 3rd Riddick film did venture in to nip territory and if we took a poll, I'm sure that the 3rd film was good. IMO Pitchblack was the best of the 3.....

Anyway, back to real matters, joking aside. You said that it's not central to the plot. I disagree. If what they had found was not of such gigantic relevance, it wouldn't be central to the plot. But lets restart for a moment. To our knowledge, they used petroglyphs of a start formation to seek out that moon orbiting a ringed planet. Upon entering the atmosphere, they search for signs of civilization. We can't tell how long it took but they find a road and a structure. Great. That's not far fetched at all. What is far fetched is that this site so happens to be where an incident occurred 2000 years ago that nearly ended all life on Earth (alleged by characters in the movie-this is not my view). It's not far fetched that they find the site, nor that the site had a bad incident where Engineers died. Its a logical fallacy on the part of the characters to assume it had something to do with them and Earth. David said that they where headed to Earth, ..must destroy before you create. These are lines that the writer made David say to mislead you. There was never solid intel that the Engineers meant Earth harm or that the awoken, angry Engineer was headed to Earth to kill billions of people.

What I'm trying to point out here is that the theory of the awoken engineer going to kill Earth is a misdirection. The characters (David and Shaw) repeatedly throw us this plot yet upon dissection, there is no real evidence that's the case at all. And when you think about it, if malicious intent on the part of the engineers is true which is what we're intended to believe..then it doesn't follow that they coincidentally landed on the most relevant site in all of human history. The geologists mapping drones were all that revealed the sleeping Engineer, the ship did not pick that up from 1000 miles out in space. And if that's the case, that's a caveat that you include in a film since its hyper relevant.

The only way out of this 'oversight' (which we're all free to 'let go' and stop worrying about it) is that they need to reveal that David & Weyland knew good and well where the site was and led the ship to enter and 'stumble' upon that crucial location. It simply doesn't add up, the way the film is. Either it's a simple oversight they thought no one would catch, or we were deliberately misled by the script to believe the engineers had malicious intent.....or last, we have to assume that David & Weyland somehow knew where on the moon to start searching. Please consider my writing. I assure you I'm a massive fan and regard highly this movie which is my second favorite movie of all time next to both Solaris films.

I speculate on the possibilities but I'm not stupid. The simplest answer is usually the correct one. In this case, the writers goofed up on what is believable. No one caught it. All the trouble they took to make the sci fi believable (atmospheric compounds, cryosleep chambers, automated surgery machines etc...) all compromised by one anal fan like me who points out that its ridiculous that we're to believe that humanity was spared by mere luck on this moon where the Prometheus just happened to land on Day 1.

As said, the only way out is that we were misled to believe the Engineers were hostile ~or~ David and Weyland knew where to aim the ship. It's one or the other. If not, it's a goof up IMHO, don't hate me lol.

LOL when i have more time i will reply to this in full, some interesting points raised...

And the Original Post, i think its sort of possible not exactly but still..... the Engineers and Humans could be connected, as you said Blitzen but then the Advanced ones came back.

I think in part you could be write its a theory to some degree that could apply, but there are some things that go against it which when i have time i will make full deep replies.

The Source leak i had which again we cant be sure is 0%-100% True did seem to indicate Mankind did not evolve from Apes... not as in the evolution of species but that the Engineers are part of that Chain instead.... Spaights draft had it that Engineers Sacrifice lead to infection and passing on Engineer DNA to Primates to Make Mankind...

Lindeloffs/Prometheus was that the Sacrifice was maybe Billion years ago and they came back over and over upgrading Life on Earth.

The Source claimed that Mankind are genetically connected to the Engineers in a Evolutionary Cycle but also a Creator/Sub-Creation that is involved multiple times... does not start with the Engineers and does not end with Humans.  They said Mankind as of now.. is 4th/5th Generation of Mankind, and its loosely taking things in the Bible and doing something different with it, and in regards to Mankind so called First Man and 6'000 years ago... they are actually touching upon it but larger time scale...

Also that Biblical Events are loosely refereed to had happened but not necessarily to our Generation, other key points too was that They (we assume Engineers or their Hierarchy) have created/destroyed life on Earth a number of times, to restart anew.... They have the power to manipulate Worlds which includes Disasters and Climates Changes like Floods and Ice Age as a means to Re-Start a New!

They also said mankind had been to that system prior to Prometheus (LV-223) and mankind plays the bigger role in the Xenomorph than the Engineers.

Again we cant be sure they was correct, but what they suggested is in some parts similar to what you have put Blitzen 

I finally listened to Wayne Haag's full interview and some things he said add up to what the Source was saying, i will cover this in detail when i have time on the relevant thread.

"One thing that still remains to me as a huge plot hole is that when they entered the moon in Prometheus, how unlikely is it that they somehow stumbled onto that alleged, most relevant site. I dont buy it"

Indeed you are correct, it was  a bit of Pot Luck.... there was no detection when approaching of any Civilization, it would be like if the only Civilization on Earth was Ancient Egyptian or Mayan and there was none anywhere else and what there was is a long gone... 

And a ship just happens to approach Earth and of all the Baron places void of Civilization they happen to enter the Atmosphere near North Africa or South America and then Spot some evidence...

So yes it was Pot Luck... but we dont know if that area on LV-223 was the only place the Engineers had occupied?

So i agree with you but than as i think SM was saying and its as i have said with the Dumb Fifield and Milburn... sometimes there are Plot Points and Devices that are needed to make the movie work..... despite they being a bit of  Plot Hole.

Take Alien

Logically... they find the SOS.....  they (Dallas, Kane and Lambert) head to the area of the signal find a Alien Ship they enter and then see a Dead Large Alien.. no signs of Life, a Big Hole in the Floor...

What would they Logically do...?

Get the Hell out of their like Lambert said...

The movie required Kane to be a bit silly and curiosity killed the cat... and then it needed Ash to break Quarantine or else in either case we may have had NO ALIEN Franchise.

But indeed a bit better thought and writing would have made the Fifield/Milburn Death Scenes be more sensible and the same could have gone with how Pot Luck they detected the Temple Mounds.

Previous Drafts however made more clear and sensible reasons for both....  

I'm afraid to read more about anything for fear of spoilers but I cant help myself. I'm burning to see the movie and cant wait till august!

"So i agree with you but than as i think SM was saying and its as i have said with the Dumb Fifield and Milburn... sometimes there are Plot Points and Devices that are needed to make the movie work..... despite they being a bit of  Plot Hole."

Plot convenience and plot hole are two different things.

" David said that they where headed to Earth, ..must destroy before you create. These are lines that the writer made David say to mislead you. There was never solid intel that the Engineers meant Earth harm or that the awoken, angry Engineer was headed to Earth to kill billions of people."

David sees the course they plotted in the orrery scene and holds a Earth hologram in his hand.