ALIEN vs all other ALIEN movies

Just going to say not only do I consider Aliens canon, I enjoy it more than the original

Oh I certainly consider the alien films canon. But the predator v alien movies are not alien movies...they are unauthorized fanboy tripe that are of course not canon.

The only one I enjoyed was the first. Really didnt care much for Aliens or A3.

"I love the fact that all of us are such hardcore ALIEN fans that we are willing to disregard 4+ movies as non-canon. Most of us would say that ALIENS is canon but there seems to be some debate about that as well. I just think it is very interesting and comical that all of us have so much devotion and admiration to the first film that's so much of the work was created outside of the first film is viewed as a giant waste of time. "

"All"? lol

I don't know anyone who is "willing to disregard 4+ movies as non-canon".

Apart from yourself.

Alien I think is a very special case. It set up a lot of potential avenues that were lost opportunities imo. I think Aliens, 3 and Resurrection work in there own right, but it is a bit like someone skipping tracks when viewing them back to back. What I mean by this, is that when you watch Aliens, you could then watch Aliens directors cut to discover more about the colonists on LV 426. As much as Aliens is a great Sci-fi shoot em up, I think it would have been great if before the arrival of the marines, there had been a movie which portrayed the colonists last stand. The end of which would have you wondering about Newt, with everyone else getting picked off by the xeno’s.

When you go from Aliens to 3, it feels like a major anti-climax as if something more could have happened in between. It is like watching a strippergram turning up to the wrong house. You know there is entertainment value there, but something went wrong with the planning. The big track skip is then onto Resurrection which just seems to occupy a point in space, that does’nt want to be part of the franchise/canon but is. AVP and Requiem feel like they want to be part of a team (bless em), but just don’t know which one. It’s an away match, with bellowing Predators on one side playing against less than capable Xenos, the end result is much like watching a monkey throwing its own excrement at a fog horn. Even B movies have standards.

@batchpool well said. I understand and feel you're so right, sadly.

@SM...

Many people will say Alien and Aliens are 100% canon.

I have seen TONS of people here say Alien 3, Resurrection, AVP and AVPR are not canon and should be disregarded.  I think it is a testament to the power of the original film that any of us would be willing to consider over half of the current 'Alien' films as non-canonical in a franchise, yet be here obsessing over Alien/Prometheus/AC.

I LOVE ALIEN3!!!!

Sorry :)

I thought they were all canon including written things like F&S except for AVP/AVPR. It doesn't seem right to say A3 and AR are not canonical just because someone doesn't like them.

@dk - Some have said that Alien3 and Resurrection would be viewed as 'dreams' if Blomkamp's Alien 5 were to become a reality.  I imagine Fox wants to let Ridley do all the Alien movies he wants to do, then Blomkamp's Alien 5 gets greenlit...

The canon at at that point would be Prometheus through Aliens, with Alien 5 rewriting the post-Aliens storyline.

BOTTOM LINE: Unlike Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, etc, we do not have established lore.  In the case of Star Wars, everyone can hate Episode 1 all day long, but George Lucas is the one who made it.  Episode 1 is canon, and not debatable.  In the Alienverse though, there is a lot of varying opinion, with the consistency being that ALIEN, ALIENS, Prometheus and AC are 100% canon.  Everything else could be re-written with Alien 5.

There was a thread similar to this before. I think someone said FOX would have final say of what is or isn't canon.

Opinions are all very well, but as far as the IP owner is concerned, the "established lore" is - at least - Prometheus, Covenant, Alien, Aliens, Alien 3 and Resurrection.

If people want to disregard certain films - that's up to them.  It's not new for people to do this.  But personal opinions don't determine what is and isn't ultimately canon.

I have a complete list of everything that is canon.It does indeed include Alien 3 and Resurrection.

To put it another way, I am only familiar with the movies and Isolation but not the comics/novelizations. I can't dismiss them just because I have not read them.

I think it boils down to a common point of reference.  Everyone has seen the films at the very least.  If, like in a recent thread about Alien acid and Ripley's harpoon, someone just wants to refer to a specific film and disregard the others for the purposes of discussion, then they say so.

If they don't, then other things from the wider continuity including the canon comics, novels, etc can be entered into 'evidence'.

@ Drake – I agree with your view on what canon would be if Alien 5 gets greenlit. But there is something very odd that now stands out. It is the numeric series of 1,2 then 5. I remember that Prometheus was at one point supposed to be part of a trilogy, but that has now changed and I find myself wondering if Alien 5 is the fourth movie to follow from Prometheus. Is 5 to become the fourth? At some point there was part of Alien 5 that did not dovetail correctly with Ridley’s vision. With Ridley as executive Producer, then canon is all the way down the line subject to Ridley being the grand architect of Alien lore.

It's a film franchise, so all films in its name are canon. Period. Including the AVP films -- as much as it pains me! This is as true for Terminator as it is for Alien -- and that asset has been passed around the studio's. Finally, novelization and comics are not canon, simply because it's a different medium -- just like the new Logan film is NOT canon because Wolverine and the X-Men are a comic book franchise, so only comic books are canonical.

Batchpool

I don't think Alien 5 has been officially green lit so who knows?

SM mentioned IP owners as being the deciding entity- I am not sure if that is FOX like I mentioned.

We also have that new rule book to consider 

I heard of the rule book- has it been published for the public (I doubt)?

I have not id what if actually means to be honest.Is it something like the Weyland Yutani report?Or is it a new policy on what is canon and what isn't?

You guys are funny. You know I'm not arbitrarily claiming what is and is not. I don't have Fox's Alien Bible. I was just commenting on the joy of gathering primarily around the core film. I can think of very few fan communities like ours.

I thought the rule book was for further movies- the direction I guess. Maybe rule 1 would be no light sabers!

"You guys are funny. You know I'm not arbitrarily claiming what is and is not. I don't have Fox's Alien Bible. I was just commenting on the joy of gathering primarily around the core film. I can think of very few fan communities like ours."

Fair enough - but you did make some fairly sweeping generalisations initially.

"SM mentioned IP owners as being the deciding entity- I am not sure if that is FOX like I mentioned."

Yep, Fox is the owner.

"I have not id what if actually means to be honest.Is it something like the Weyland Yutani report?Or is it a new policy on what is canon and what isn't?"

There are guides for canon which are for the internal use of Fox and its licensees, as there would be for any franchsise.  The Weyland Yutani Report is effectively the public version of this.

Thanks S.M. that's what I was leaning towards 

I though FOX de-canonized the AVP films as just a spinoff series with no connection to the ALIEN films

What I find hilarious is that there are enough Alien geeks so it makes it possible for this message board to get many replies every week but hey I am here often so I guess that I am also to blame (LOL). The depth and in detail discussions here makes me think that there are enough borderline Aspergers people here but that is cool because people with Asperger’s syndrome (a light version of autism but you can read more about it if you want just look at reliable sources) tend to be very knowledgeable about some/a few things. My intention is not to make fun of people with Asperger’s syndrome but it is fun that there are people that are so interested in something so they can a lot of details about X and Y. Some people post here often and some people less. It is those that post here often that contribute to me impression that there are many Alien geeks here, I don’t point fingers it just an observation that I find interesting.

You say all, well people have different opinions so I find that way of thinking to be flawed. I say this in a respectful way, just to make that clear.

As far as cannon is concerned I am not sure. It seems to me that Prometheus to Alien 3 makes perfect sense while AR doesn’t since that movie isn’t necessary to the whole story. 1979 started it with Alien where we meet Ripley, she survives and makes it to Aliens where she tells the marines about the Xeno. After Aliens we get to Alien 3 where we find out that Hicks and Newt are dead so 1, 2, and 3 are obviously connected while I wouldn’t necessarily say so about AR. Resurrection it seems too much of a fiction thing to me if we look at the matter of logic and continuity at least to me. They could have decided to not do AR and it would have changed much of the total story (the way the movies went). Of course this is just my opinion, someone else will probably disagree about it.

Batchpool:

You wrote

 “I think it would have been great if before the arrival of the marines, there had been a movie which portrayed the colonists last stand.”

I am not sure if you would need a whole movie for that but they could have added some more about it in Aliens. This is one of the things that were missing in that movie if you ask me.

I understand what you mean about how they went from Aliens to Alien 3 but I don’t find that to be a problem. What is important to me is that Newt and Ripley survived and that they went for new adventures. Newt died but were got to follow Ripley in the next movie. If you look at what role that Newt played in the movies then you realize that she wasn’t meant to be a big part of really then if it was right or not to kill her that is probably another topic in itself.

“. . . the end result is much like watching a monkey throwing its own excrement at a fog horn”

Sorry I can’t help it but I laughed so much at that comment, no offense.

Drake:

“I think it is a testament to the power of the original film that any of us would be willing to consider over half of the current 'Alien' films as non-canonical in a franchise, yet be here obsessing over Alien/Prometheus/AC.”

That might be the case, what I think is interesting is that they work on the Alien story about 40 years later and that people still talk about it. I am not sure if there are a lot of movie franchises where that is a reality, Star Wars is the other franchise that I can think about at least among those that has had a huge impact like that but “there might be more of them out there” (Luke Skywalker-quote which in this context means geek mode, heh).

Alien is one of the greatest films ever made.  Ever.  Easily.  I have several close friends who agree with me on this, plus the added benefit of talking to all of you on this forum.  The cinematography, the pacing, the fact that the film felt REAL.  As much as I enjoyed the films that followed, none of them felt nearly as 'real' as Alien.

Can't agree more about the 40 years later comment.  I am a huge Rolling Stones fan and can draw parallels to that community..  Alien is sci-fi for thinkers.  Thats what draws us in.  Its not just some evil beast running around, there is quite a bit to it.

@Batchpool, I have always thought the same about there being more of a story that could have been told in relation to the LV-426 colonists. This could have produced a spin off story that became canon. That said, part of me likes the fact that it is left to the imagination, like, for example, in relation to the facehugger specimens, "Marachuk, John J", Newt's den, the "last stand", the small arms fire, the acid burns, the half eaten donut, the rest of the Jorden family, that likely last other colonist that Dietrich finds etc. 

The other part of me wants that story fleshed out. River of Pain has attempted to do this and there are some good ideas there but it's not entirely satisfying. 

We're left therefore with, in my opinion (or what I choose to believe lol) the story of Ripley, her character building and ultimate sacrifice through the first 3 movies whilst also witnessing the evolution of the derelict's cargo through the original Kane-alien, the hive that is created in Aliens from Russ Jorden and other colonists and then, finally, the purely murderous alien in Alien3 which displays entirely different characteristics than its predecessors in Alien and Aliens. 

I think that it's clear that Alien Covenant will embrace what Prometheus started in providing us with more evolutionary examples geared towards a canonical and extremely complex lifecycle for the alien entity which provides for so many variables in how the beast presents depending on host, genetic make up, environmental factors etc all of which have been utilised in the Aliens series to date to show a different kind of alien (although, for the record, I don't care for anything in the series beyond Alien, Aliens and Alien3). I can't wait to see the effect and outcome of David's likely continued input into the creation/evolution of science-fiction's greatest ever concept. The countdown says 75 days to go, we're not gonna last 75 hours (couldn't wait until 17 days!).

The fall of Hadley's Hope is detailed in the novel River of Pain - but even that missed some great opportunities.