Shaw as an antagonist

Well i think we can only accept the Tone She took in the Theatrical Cut...  so that there is not so much Tension between them, so this makes a bit more sense for when she helps assemble David back together which i think she will (Ridley has said as much).

I also dont think they would go the route of David and Shaw playing happy families at the end of Prometheus and then no soon as David is back in one piece and Shaw is in Cryo-sleep.. David then goes right to his Nefarious Agenda

It will be interesting to see how much or little is shown of the moment we Shaw leave on that Buggy with Davids Body and Head to the point they arrive on Paradise, as the process from getting David onto the Buggy and then to the Juggernaught was never shown and all we saw was the Ship leave LV-223

I think they will maybe leave us clues to show us that there was some kind of agreement and Covenant between them, but then things went SOUR but not right away.

As far as Shaw having a antagonistic approach, it really depends on what she finds out about the Engineers and a lot depends on the following.

*The state of Engineer Society at the time they arrive on Paradise, or indeed how much information regarding this David can relay to Shaw prior to arrival.

*The intentions towards or knowledge of Mankind the Engineers or beings on Paradise have towards us. Or how David chooses to inform Shaw.

*Any knowledge David can gain from the Juggernaught and what he already knows about them and how he chooses to pass this onto Shaw.

*Any knowledge David can obtain about those beings on Paradise prior to arrival.

*What if there are any Engineers on the Juggernaught.

These could influence Shaw, and i think David could edge her on the side of caution...  such as.

"Dr Shaw, i already know why they wanted to destroy Mankind, if Paradise has these beings you are looking for your answers from.  I can guarantee you they will not react to you in a positive and benevolent way... so sadly Dr your questions will unlikely be answered" 

"You saw how they reacted to Mr Weylands Questions, i am afraid they would most likely react in the same manner when we arrive"

"However i have a plan to how you can get your answers, i have already gathered a lot of information on their intentions from my study of their Technology and Recordings and the Information Written in the Temple we visited"

"No doubt they would have information on Paradise that i could translate to you and better to scavenge among ruins and ashes for answers, than become ruin and ashes in conquest of those answers"

The above is a example.... and would indeed give Shaw a reason to re-think her Strategy... the other would indeed be if they find a Engineer on the Ship they took.

A think to Mention is Shaw can-not communicate with the Engineers and She has to take everything David says at Face Value and so indeed he could tell her anything he wants.

For example..

He could have told the Engineer in Prometheus, "these beings are here to steal your technology"

There would be no way the rest of the crew would know what David was saying and what the Engineer actually says back.

Concerning to Shaw I do not think so, we have 3 or more antagonist: Walter as "replicant" after last teaser spoted, MURTHUR and Weyland Co., and maybe one member of the crew.  

Long time ago I convinced myself that Shaw was converted by David in some kind of alien queen through the sensible application of black goo.  This would explain the eggs.

If the rumors about Oram are true _ that he wasn´t confortable in terraforming an alien world that already have its own ecology _ than this is a plot hole, since someone carrying these beliefs probably wouldn´t make it across Weyland-Yutani selection processes.

I have & I think she was antagonistic in demanding that the engineer explain why they wanted to destroy us. I think there is scope for a completely different story & it continues with David having replaced his 'father' with a 'mother' and continuing to do her bidding as he did for his father before. None of the actions David took were for anything other than to complete Weylands agenda - even Holloway was because Weyland told him to try harder and he practically asked for his blessing before sticking his finger in that drink. 

She also has every opportunity to re-program him before attaching his head - she did ask him what happens when Weyland is not around to program him anymore! Nothing is what you think - or at least I hope so because we've seen rampaging robots before - we've seen a lot of what's in the trailers before to be honest so I am still hopeful that these scenes were picked purposely because they are familiar, they have that Alien feel about them but the truth, well that's going to shock to the core!! 

Regarding Shaw's state of mind. She was mourning Charlie's death, was physically and emotionally exhausted, and contemplating her own impending death…and high as a kite on pain killers due to the agony from her recent abdominal surgery. Once she sees an opportunity for survival, her rage kicks in and starts shaking her fist for the answer she deserves. She certainly had paid for it.

Based on those set of circumstances I would not label her as an antagonist. In fact, under those circumstances I think she kept her composure quite well, and focussed onto the logical steps ahead to seek her answers. To me she's a Rock Star! 

sp_jockey

I have to agree, you make some excellent points regarding Shaw and what she'd endured and it's effect on her mental state.
Most folks would have just gone catatonic.

 Why does SHE deserve an answer? The logical thing to do is head home & warn the billions of people on earth of the possible threat, not run off to challenge the aggressor with bad language and a decapitated robot! 

Whats her agenda? Sit down and have a nice chat about why they shouldn't eradicate humanity? 

Also what would her state of mind be after having time to assess all that had happened & recognising the huge threat posed by the cargo in all its glory - would she really believe this is a race that can be reasoned with? A race that, by this forums own popular theory, is factioned and designs weapons of mass destruction/global annihilation -  She believed they were creators, she discovers they're also destroyers - she was 'so wrong' before, do you think she'd risk being wrong again? 

BM

Yeah, a tiny oversight on her part. :)

I think maybe I didn't convey my original post as clearly as I could have. Some of the responses here seem to pull meanings from it that I didn't intend.

The closest to what kind of a discussion I was aiming for are the remarks of BM.

In summary, I was mostly looking to discuss the idea that it appears a space for a certain discussion has been made by the events of Prometheus and the themes we see Ridley aiming to highlight with Oram. This potential discussion would be one about human arrogance and the pitfalls of faith based reasoning. I intentionally left out some of the details about Oram that I now think would have made the comparison between him and Shaw more clear. I learned these things while going through the recent interview with John Logan (which has some structural spoilers). Was hesitant about bringing them up and didn't want to add a spoiler tag to the post.

Overall, I'm not making the claim Shaw is an antagonist as much as I'm posing the question of whether Ridley may aim to include a vague echo of this concept in the Covenant story. In my opinion it appears the door has been left open to give Shaw any outcome Ridley wishes.

Ultimately, I am wondering if Scott intends to make an example of her. An example of what can happen when a person relies on faith and has it heavily challenged. Some people walk away from the faith and recover a part of themselves, but others can dig themselves deep into insanity, sometimes justifying the rewriting of their own beliefs so as to maintain their emotional vices.  I do not claim, but am considering if we will see this happen to Shaw.

I further am attempting to illustrate this with a tangible example. We are all familiar with the theory that Shaw is going to act as some type of mother to David's creatures. Most people have proposed this would be done against her will at David's hand. If Scott were to go in this direction of faith creating dark outcomes, he would have the option of allowing Shaw to alter her beliefs. She could come to see herself as a spiritual being paving the way for the kingdom of god. Of course this is an extreme outcome, but it was only meant to give color to the concept I was explaining.

It does seem as if Sir Ridley is building in a Moral Caution about faith-based reasoning.
Shaw first 'believed' that the paintings were an 'invitation' and never considered another possibility.

Shaw as an associate of David ?

This could be an interesting outcome.

Shaw was never a sympathetic character for me, except when she accept the sacrifice to save earth from annihilation from the Juggernaut. Even if i wonder if the Juggernaut would be a real match for earth warships and thus a real threat for Earth.

However her obsession for getting answers from engineers is really annoying to say the least. I mean seriously ? The only Engineer she met, knew no better than to wipe all humans in his presence. What made her believe that other Engineers would not to do the same with both her and David ?

Thus the fact that she would finally decide to help David wipe out engineers would be logical to prevent Engineers to wipe out mankind.

However i am not too sure that she would agree with David about wiping out mankind or doing the kind of awful experiments leading to the creation of the Protomorph.

Unless off course if she has been altered by black goo or has turned insane by the awful slaughtering of Engineers.

"Yeah, a tiny oversight on her part. :)"

Indeed and i can see what QES and BM are getting at...

Shaw is going to try and find these beings and thinks she deserves a Answer, without actually considering how they would view us, she is still holding onto her believe that there has to be some Level above the Engineers some Hierarchy some one at the top that would reflect her beliefs

As she may think and i think mentioned in Prometheus.

God would not try and kill her..

And she also then asked when Faced with the possible Truth these Mortal beings created us... she wondered WHO CREATED  THEM

She feels if these beings Created us and then wanted to Destroy us this entitles her to Answers... this is a assumption on her Part that we was of significance to them at one point in a similar manner that her Religion Teaches the Relationship between God and Man, in that he Cherish's and wants the best for Man.

When in Reality she may just find these beings and their Hierarchy is more closer to the Vengeful God who wanted to destroy mankind for its transgressions in the Bible, where we are judged on our WHOLE and not just on the Few.

So if we had upset, displeased or simply become irrelevant to those Engineers and their Hierarchy it makes no difference if you are a Mother Teresa or one of the Most Barbaric Human Dictators to have Walked the Earth.

In the Eyes of those Engineers, it makes no difference.

And so Shaw seemingly intend on Getting Answers because she feels she DESERVES them..  is in Oversight a Selfish Response from Her that could indeed Prove Costly to the Rest of Mankind.

I will now cover indeed how Costly in Oversight her Agenda to get her Answers because she Deserves them can be.

If the Engineers wanted us Dead, attempted it and it proved Costly and they simply Made a Covenant to not interfer with us anymore.

They would simply leave us to Rot, and destroy each other and not bother to Help us, and not Waste their Time and Effort to Destroy us after the Disastrous attempt before.

In their Arrogance maybe the Engineers thought without their Help (as they taught us a lot of things) Mankind on its own would not Evolve to become Advanced, without the Gods/Engineers Help we would have been no more than Barbaric Cave Men..

So they leave us to be.....

What happens when a Human Turns up at their Door Step, with a Creation of our own who can use their Technology and know we can Now Travel the Stars, and created Life be that Synthetic that can use their Technology and we have obtained it from there LV-223 Outpost.

No soon as they see this, they would no doubt (if they was aware of LV-223 and the intention to destroy us).  They would simply want to now carry out a mission to destroy us because now we really could be a Threat.

Thats before Shaw gets chances to Address them for Answers, they may even think she does not deserve any, and may think this would be insulting.

Shaw has been pretty Selfish to Think she can go to finds these beings or their creators for Answers, when instead she could just Alert them to exactly the Treat Mankind has become.

And get them to break any Covenant they made to leave us to be...

So yes a Great Oversight by Shaw

Back to her Arogance to get answers, maybe she would find out indeed the Reason for our Creation and maybe what she finds could be a totally Horrific Agenda, and Nothing compared to how her Religon views what Gods what be like.

Maybe she felt these Engineers and those above them, created us and watched over us in a similar way to her Beliefs but we upset them and they abandoned us.

Well what a shock if she finds out the Agenda and Purpose for our Creation was nothing as Benevolent as her Faith would have it.

As Far as Psychologically Goes...  If Shaw indeed found out some Horrific Truth like above, this would indeed Shatter Her Faith, it would prove everything she has known is False and the Gods are Wicked and Evil....

And this indeed could push Shaw over the Edge and who knows what Agenda she would have, and maybe She would then indeed Want her Creators Dead!

And so yes maybe her and David can make a Covenant and Plan to Wipe these Wicked Beings out?

Maybe Shaw and nuked LV223 before they left? Leaving no nasty threats to Earth?

Should have been the end of Prometheus.....the Juggernaut turning it weapons on the temples and letting them have it. Boom! Bam! then heading off to Paradise?

Hmmm...hard to believe they didn't at the very least, disable the remaining juggernauts?

What would the poetic justice be in this case? Dying? If so, I don't think the punishment fits the "crime". And nearly everyone in the films dies, so these 2 characters aren't really singled out. I think it would be a little ironic if/when Shaw gets the answers to her questions, they may be less than profound, but I think that's about the extent of it.

I don't think Shaw was disproportionately jerk'ier than a lot of the rest of the crew. A good amount of them definitely had jerky moments. I obviously can't speak for Oram at this point, but as of now I don't think we can equate faith with jerkiness.

Considering the deleted scene you mentioned, I didn't find Shaw anymore off-putting in it than she already was. In fact, I think it's a pretty reasonable reaction. Considering everything that happened, and now she's talking to something that can't comprehend the concept of life and death (as far as we know), I think anger is understandable. Or if David can indeed understand the concept of death, and can even "die" himself, at the very least he is probably going to live a much longer life than a human. So you could make the argument that life is not as fragile to him, which once again could somewhat justify anger from Shaw. But talking about androids and what it means to be truly alive is murky territory, so, moving on...

On the topic of Shaw saying she "deserves to know"... I kind of agree with her. If someone were to come up to you and put you in handcuffs, arrest you, and tell you you're going to jail, even though you haven't done anything wrong to your knowledge, would you not think you'd deserve to know why you're being punished? I think the stakes are even higher when talking about the extermination of the human race. Had the Engineers come to earth to wipe out the human race when they initially wanted to, I'm sure those people would have wanted to know why. Maybe the ones who prompted the Engineers decision wouldn't deserve to know why, but the good and innocent people would. Fast forward 2000 years... people find out the Engineers wanted to wipe out the human race 2000 years ago... these people assume that whatever pissed the Engineers off all those years ago probably stopped awhile ago when people started to become more civilized. Most of these people have done nothing to deserve death. So once again, I think they deserve to know, so they could try to mitigate things, at the very least. Not to mention the fact that the Engineers created people. If one of your parents left you before you were old enough to know them, then 50 years later you found out they were trying to kill you shortly after you were born, wouldn't you think you'd deserve to know why? I'm not saying Shaw's motives aren't strictly for personal gain/satisfaction, but I do think she is right in that she deserves to know.

As to whether I will sympathize with Shaw at the end of Covenant... I probably will to a certain extent, but to which extent depends on her actions. I already sympathize with her due to what she endured in Prometheus. If she goes down a sinister path in Covenant, I will still sympathize with her in the sense that I sympathize with what led her to that path. Kind of like murderers. Some people are baffled when I sometimes say I feel sorry for certain murderers or people who have committed similar atrocities. It's not that I feel bad that they're in prison or that I think their actions were justified... they definitely deserve whatever punishment they get. I just feel bad that things happened in their mind to a point where they felt that taking a persons life was justified. That's sad to me. I feel bad for their minds. That's basically how I would feel with Shaw if she were to go down that path. But if she is somehow responsible for Engineers or people's deaths, although I'll feel bad that tragic things happened that led her mind to that point, nothing justifies that and she deserves whatever fate she's handed.

@BM

Is Shaw selfish for going to paradise to try to get answers to her questions? Possibly. Why go to paradise instead of warning people on earth about everything that has happened? Well... first off, the Engineer's plan failed. So considering that all the Engineers on LV-223 (that we know of) are dead, their failed plan isn't necessarily an imminent threat at this point. But you can still make the argument that Shaw should warn them anyway - of course, it's the entire human race... better to be safe than sorry, right? In that case, it's possible that traveling to earth was just not a viable option at the time. This could be for a few reasons, but let's say earth is farther away than paradise... maybe the ship didn't have enough fuel, or whatever type of energy force it uses, to make it far enough... or maybe another malfunction of some kind hindered how far it could go. Likely? Probably not. Possible? Yes.

I think we should attempt to look at what would actually happen if Shaw did fly back to earth. Would it even do any good? First, people would probably freak out when they see the ship land. She would tell her story and there would probably be a lot of people who think it's BS. That is, if she gets to live to tell her story. Because Weyland-Yutani might just kill her to keep the information secret, which could be in their interest for a number of reasons. Let's say people did believe Shaw and were convinced that the Engineers could attack earth sometime in the future... what now? What could they do about it? They could build up our defenses as best they can, but they would still have no idea if that would be remotely effective, AND they would still have no idea when it would come. It could be a year, it could be another 1000 years. They could try to reverse engineer their technology from the Juggernaut, but who knows if that would produce anything that would help them defend themselves. The only possible option I think would be to experiment with the black goo and try to make some kind of vaccine-type thing to make them immune, if the Juggernaut indeed had black goo on board. But speaking of black goo... if the Juggernaut has black goo on board, I think that's reason enough to keep it far away from earth. It's not that they couldn't study it safely, I'm sure they could. But one tiny mistake with that stuff could ruin the whole world, and I don't think that would be a risk worth taking. So really the only options are: wait around in fear of an attack that may never happen but very well could at some point, and by the time it happens there is no chance of stopping it, or... attempt to control their own destiny and contact the Engineers themselves and try to change their minds. This is basically what Shaw is doing, although it seems she's doing it for selfish reasons rather than for the benefit of earth. But the point is, I don't think flying back to earth would have helped anyway. In this case, I think a message to earth from Shaw would suffice. And she did send a message at the end of Prometheus. We don't know if that message was received. It could have been, but if not, I think finding a way to directly communicate to earth would be the best option, if it's possible.

So, back to the question: is Shaw selfish for going to paradise to try to get answers to her questions? Possibly, and probably. But does that make it wrong? I don't think so. Now that I've attempted to show why Shaw returning to earth really wouldn't have made a difference, I think it makes Shaw's motive for going to paradise irrelevant. Where else should she go? At least going to paradise gives her a chance at getting answers; possibly an answer to the most profound question of all time... what is the meaning of life?

Here is a woman who is a Christian scientist, which is already somewhat conflicting because scientists usually lean toward the non-religious side. I'm sure this has made her have a somewhat conflicted worldview. She lost her mother as a child and later lost her father. I'm sure this only served to add to her conflicted worldview. She is invested in this mission, which I think we can infer is the culmination of her life's work. She wants answers to these questions that have always conflicted her and she wants them badly. You could say that this is not a good mentality to have because desperation can make people irrational. So now she finally thinks she is going to get these answers she's always wanted. She gets part of her answer when she meets her maker. But along with it, she finds out her maker wanted her species dead long ago. To her, it's as if her whole existence is a mistake. She goes in thinking she can find comfort in the fact that her life might have some higher or divine meaning, but instead she gets the opposite: her life is a meaningless mistake. Probably not good for that conflicted mind of hers. On top of this, she has to see the person she loves die a horrific death. And she sees all the other horrific things that happen to the rest of the crew. She has never been able to have children, which is possibly the one thing that would have made her feel like her life has meaning. So now, on top of all that stuff, she's forced to go through this process that has taunted her her whole life; childbirth. But instead of a wonderful memento of the man she loves, she's forced to birth a disgusting alien baby. She's now numb. In that state, it's hard to think that anything matters anymore. Especially going back to earth. There's nothing there for her anymore. All she can do is hold on to the tiny sliver of hope that even after all this pain and loss, maybe this is what she's meant to do. If not... at the very least, she can at least ask them "why?", if only for her own peace of mind. Selfish? Possibly. But I wouldn't blame her at that point. (I know I'm reading a whole lot into Shaw, but I justify her motives and actions by the way I see her, so the only real way to explain that is by describing her from my POV). Also, at the end of the day, if I had the opportunity to possibly discover the meaning of life, you'd bet your ass I'd take it.

Shaw as an antagonist... I can definitely see it. At this point, she is still setting herself up for disappointment. That little sliver of hope that she might still have could possibly be the fine line between being confused/upset with her creator(s) and being downright angry with her creator(s). I could see her being very bitter and wanting revenge of some sort.

TL:DR: I think it's a little ironic, but not necessarily poetic justice. I don't necessarily think Shaw was off-putting in the deleted scene considering what she's been through. I do think Shaw deserves to know why the Engineers wanted to kill us. I will most likely sympathize with Shaw at the end of Covenant but I won't justify her killing people if she goes down that path, and she deserves whatever comes her way if she does. I can definitely see Shaw as an antagonist if she becomes bitter and wants revenge on the Engineers. I don't think Shaw going back to earth after the events of Prometheus would have done much good. Shaw may be a little selfish by going to paradise to seek answers, but I can't blame her after what she's been through. If I had the chance to find out the meaning of life, I'd take it.

BigDave

"...answers, they may even think she does not deserve any, and may think this would be insulting."

That's exactly the kind of narrative I'm curious to see if Ridley is going for. It makes a lot of sense the engineers would see things this way. This is also the kind of context that allowed me to imagine Ridley intending Shaw to appear somewhat arrogant/entitled. From our perspective we might sympathize with her on her feelings, but to an engineer, she probably sounds like an ungrateful creation.

"And so yes maybe her and David can make a Covenant and Plan to Wipe these Wicked Beings out?"

I think there's an even greater chance we will see this happen than there is a chance that we'll see Shaw go mad.

Of course both could happen. As you said, her faith being decimated could drive her mad and send her on a holy crusade with David as her servant in the endeavor. But, I could also see her simply not going mad and deciding to attack the engineers with a some sort of hope that it will protect earth from them.

And of course I still wonder if there is a chance Shaw would order David to use her as a holy mother for more creatures (believing it is god's work)

DirtWolf

These are all good thoughts but it's a little removed from the discussion I intended to start here. My original point was to speculate on the possibilities of how Ridley has chosen to write Shaw's character. I'm not making judgements about her actions as much as observations on how she was portrayed in Prometheus.

There were other replies that had revealed I wasn't being clear in my original post so I made a follow up post that explains better the topic here. I just now pasted it from the comment to the end of the original post to help prevent further confusion.

In summary I'm not aiming to talk about whether Shaw was right or wrong. More looking for discussion on the possibilities of her character-treatment in light of what we know about Oram's character as well as what we know about Ridley's intention to use these films as a venue for philosophic commentary on the dangers of religious thinking.

Shaw didn't deserve an answer. That seems like a pretty arrogant attitude- especially from one of "faith".

Firstly DirtWolf a very interesting and long reply (well worth the Read) and i can agree with most of that if not all.

"Why go to paradise instead of warning people on earth about everything that has happened?"

As you pointed out it wont change a thing, you clearly stated the threat from LV-223 is unlikely unless there are Engineers left which i doubt there is on LV-223.  So the only threat from LV-223 is if Mankind go there again, or if Shaw meets some beings/Engineers and then they pop to LV-223 or they pop to Earth to Finish the Job..

This is the great risk that she takes in going to Paradise, potentially she could alert them to Earth and the Threat of Mankind rather than try and get them to see the Good in us, and who ever knows if those on Paradise are even aware of our Creation... or if they did and intended to destroy us maybe those LV-223 Engineers set up shop there to carry out a Order, and some went back to Paradise to say they have completed it... rather than admit to the failure because maybe something they had done on LV-223 would upset their Creators/Hierarchy.

Much like the Plot for Micheal Fassbenders Move Centurion where the Roman Conquest failed in the North of England and instead of allowing the handful of survivors home , which would then show they failed... they decided to keep their mission and fate a Mystery and kill off the survivors to brush it under the carpet.

I will further add that indeed returning to Earth instead on one hand may be a safeguard against alerting other Engineers etc on Paradise to how far we have Evolved and become a threat.

But you can be sure the Weyland Company would want to get its hands on the Juggernaught and Tech, and this potentially could prove disasterous for Mankind, even if David has no intentions to use the stuff on us...  Mankind should not be messing about with this stuff as it caused Death to those who created it, or at least those (Engineers) who had greater knowledge of what it does.

For Mankind to mess with the Black Goo could be a Disaster, even if they wanted to try and get a Vaccine of sorts, they could on the route to that lead to the Destruction of Mankind.

As far as the Ship running out of Fuel and Paradise being closer, who knows how far Paradise is, it could be closer it could be much further.  I would assume the Engineers ship could easily make it to Earth in no Time though.

I made a Thread that is Relevant to this Subject (Shaw as Antagonist) Here

In Hindsight to save space i could have just added it to this Debate/Topic but then it could maybe go off track a bit to what this Topic was intended for.