What we know about Engineers so far

I think its a case of personnel Opinion and indeed the comments by Dallas (Fossilized, Bones Bent Outwards) with the Skeletal Look of some of the Space Jockey had led many to Speculate it was a SKELETON even inspiring the earlier Comics from the late 80's and early 90's t depict the Space Jockey as the Fossilized Remains of a Alien Race.

The Inception of the idea came from STARBEAST where the Skeletal Remains was found of Giant Alien beings.

When we got to ALIEN and HR Giger came along to design the Space Jockey (as RS was really into his Bio-Mechanical Art) so he came up with a Creation that Blurred the Lines between what is Organic and what is Mechanical.

He ended up submitting the Concept which i have put above, and it looks like some kind of Space Suit, but it could be the remains of a Truly Bio-Mechanical being.. that connects to the Ship/Chair because this being is Part Organic/Part Machine and in this context the remains are more of a Exo-skeleton of some Bio-Mechanical Being like the Xenomorph.

So i think IF it was not a Space Suit then it more likely is a Bio-Mechanical Organism like the Xenomorph (see Concept below) rather than a Elephantine Organic Creature (See Image Below).

But i can see WHY people think it is a Skeleton... i think IF we reveal the Space Jockey to be different, then it would be more fitting if it is a Bio-Mechanical Being like the Xenomorph is rather than a Skeleton of some Organism that Once had Flesh Covering its Bones.

"I still believa the Space Jockey is a different,  possibly higher race to the engineers. "

I think the route they was taking was the Space Jockey is just a Suit and inside is a Engineer.... this was prior to Alien Covenant as at this time the Space Jockey was a Ancient Event..

The Space Jockey Suits in Prometheus look more closer to the Space Jockey Concept Works, than a Skeleton...

There are a FEW anomalies that are left from Prometheus and its reveal about the Engineers and their Bio-Technology.

1) The Size Difference... the Space Jockey would be about 12-13ft Tall if we assume same Proportions of the Suit Upper Half in comparison to our Prometheus ones. We have to remember the Space Jockey Prop is about 16ft Across and we have to take into account the Chair is within that too, the angle of the CHAIR and where the Legs/Feet would go does leave it open for the Space Jockey to be Taller than what would fit in the remaining 14 Ft of the Prop though.  Which leaves us to Estimate the Space Jockey as between 12-15ft.    When working on Jon Spaights Alien Engineers it was revealed the Engineers/Space Jockey as 15ft Tall... when working on Prometheus Draft (Damien Lindeloff's Paradise) this was revised to 12 FT. 

The Problem arose by not using any Special Effects to Portray our Engineers as 10ft+  beings.. this leaves it OPEN for people to debate the Space Jockey/Engineers are not the Same Race.

2) The Color of the Space Jockey compared to the Engineers Suits... this is potentially the bigger FLAW because we are shown those Dead Engineers are 2000 years old yet they look similar to the Pristine Space Jockey suits in the Dark Grey Color.  So the Space Jockey suit would have to have been there for MUCH MUCH longer to Discolor/Bleach to the Bone-Like Color we got in ALIEN.

This leaves it open to Ponder if the Suit is not only Larger, but also a different Color.... unless the Space Jockey has been there for Tens/Hundreds of Thousands of Years, which RS had revealed it HAD-NOT but now with the path of Alien Covenant are we being led to the FACT the Space Jockey is NOT on LV-426 by the events of Alien Covenant in the year 2105?

This again leaves it open to consider could the Space Jockey be revealed as different to the Engineers.

3) Aesthetic Differences there are a few differences in the Space Jockey Suit compared to Engineers suits, which are not related to Size or Color... these are Proportions, the Space Jockey Suit looks a bit more Skeletal, but its Proportions are different.   

The ARMS are longer in comparison, the HEAD is smaller and more sunk in comparison, the SHOULDERS are more Broader, and the RIBCAGE (upper Body) is Wider and Longer/Taller in comparison.

But ALL of these could be put down to a Oversight that is IRRELEVANT they can be explained away to some degree.

Dallas is NO Expert on Biology and what he had Discovered is TRULY ALIEN he  made TWO Assumptions with the Space Jockey.

1) It looks Fossilized, Bones Bent Outwards indicating he thought it was a Fossil/Skeletal Remains.

2) Its looks like its Grown out of the Chair.

He may have been WRONG with the First One, but could he be RIGHT with the Second?  A reveal of the Suits Growing and Mutating could explain the differences in Size/Proportion and Color of the Space Jockey Suits compared to our Engineers.   So his 2ND Assumption could be used as a way to explain away the inconsistencies.

I HOWEVER do hope we get a reveal of another Race, i hope they either Stick with the Space Suit but make the occupant Taller and Less Human, or Reveal a Bio-Mechanical being as what the Space Jockey is.

With Prometheus the "last engineer" was revealed to wear a bio-mechanical suit virtually identical to the appearance of the Space Jockey in Alien to pilot the Juggernaut, a biomechanical spacecraft virtually identical to the derelict craft the Space Jockey "landed" on LV-426.

This simple comparison alone infers that the technology of the Juggernaut is neither Engineer nor Space Jockey and that the biomechanical "flight suit" that comes from the pilot's chair is able to adapt any size of pilot.

If we view the Juggernauts as living biomechanical organisms, the purpose of the chair and its flight suit would be symbiotic in nature (think Farscape's Moya), whereas the aesthetic appearance of the Juggernauts, their apparent purpose (to carry Xenomorph cargo), and Gigers mural (mentioned by BigDave) heavily suggests the Juggernauts are of the Xenomorph race.

In addition to this, if we look at the makeup of the Black Pathogen - a nano-AI-virus, and its apparent effects in Prometheus and Alien: Covenant, which seems to mutate anything it contaminates with Xenomorph traits (Fifield's original mutation, the Hammerpedes acidic blood, the neomorph spore sacs, the Deacon etc.). This seems to suggest that the Engineers and the Space Jockeys are being coerced into spreading the Xenomorph onto viable worlds.

All of this heavily suggests, to me at least that the Xenomorph is not a weapon, nor a creation but the prime antagonist of the franchise, the dark gods at the top of the hierarchy, as the mural in Prometheus would seem to suggest. 

We have also assumed that if unleashed on a viable world the Xenomorph would eventually exhaust its supply of hosts and die off, leaving only their eggs. Considering how adaptive the Xenomorph appears to be and the makeup of the Black Pathogen, maybe or assumption was misconceived. What if, when the supply of external hosts run low the Xenomorph is able to propagate by other means (a King Alien maybe) and as the length of their occupation grows unimpeded the newly born Xenomorphs become less feral and aggressive (much like the idea not implemented in Alien), becoming intelligent, sentient - the aforementioned dark gods, and the original, true Xenomorphs.

"All of this heavily suggests, to me at least that the Xenomorph is not a weapon,"

If we go by your theory in you last post Gavin, then indeed it would make the Original Juggernauts (Derelict) basically just the same Covenant Ship.   Where we simply Swap   Walter/Space Jockey and Embryo's/Eggs

This does not appear to be the case due to the continuing nature of the Franchise as far as how it changes things as it goes along.... The Status Quo  since ALIEN until the Prequels was these are BIO-WEAPONS where the Question was WHAT relationship are they to the Space Jockey?  is he on a Military Mission and they are his Bio-Weapon Cargo? If so WHY and who are his Race in Conflict with.

There was enough ambiguity to look at the Xenomorph as the Weyland-Yutani Company did in that it could be used as a BIO-WEAPON and so it means we could ponder if the Space Jockey had actually discovered it and saw its potential as a Weapon rather than to actually had Purposely Created it as such. 

The Prequels began to answer this... which i will make a Topic Soon about, in that it had given us this Creators/Gods Plot, but then how these Creators then wanted to Destroy is and the Xenomorph was ONE of the Weapons they would use... it was indicated in Alien Engineers, these Engineers maybe discovered something (they did not Create) and used this as Experiments to Create various Xenomorph Organisms.

Prometheus changed this a little, only as far as to make it a bit more ambiguous and then we continued with Alien Covenant with a somewhat U-TURN in the Space Jockey Event and Creation of the the Eggs.  Which i think has NOT settled well with the MAJORITY of Fans..

Which now brings me back to your post GAVIN...

So we arrive at a point now where the whole reveals and story behind the Xenomorph and Engineers, is JUST NOT anywhere near as Surreal of Alien as most would have been thinking about before the Prequels got made.

A Plot Similar to what you have mentioned, is also something that matches what potentially HR Gigers Concept work for Alien had.... and also links to the Original Idea about our STARBEAST from the Original idea by Dan O'Bannon that lead to ALIEN

The Concept works for Prometheus/Alien Engineers are NOT Canon as we have not been directly shown these Engineers discovering some Alien Organism that Does-not resemble the HR Giger works or anything from ALIEN but does resemble a few things shown in the Concept work for STARBEAST

This leaves it open to EXPLORE a Plot more related to STARBEAST and indeed one of the ideas i had for how i was going to handle Prometheus 2/3 which would be similar to what you have put GAVIN ;)

Introduction of a ALIEN Race that is Intelligent but FAR more ALIEN than we can comprehend as far as Appearance and Technology.   That have Created the Original Bio-Mechanical Ships, where they USE Humanoid beings in a Symbiotic Relationship but then we can wonder WHAT does these Pilots gain from this?

There are a number of theories and Mythos that suggest Mankind was created by the Gods purely to Serve, to be used for Labor and in Return we get some limited Knowledge passed on and allowed to live somewhat Civilized Lives.....  other Sci-Fi related plots that show the Egyptian Gods created/used Mankind for the same Purpose. (Inc Star Gate Series).  THIS could fit with the Prometheus Plot and Philosophy  and we see David/Walter are created to Serve...   and so this THEME/PLOT could extend all the way to the Ancestors of the Engineers, being used as Symbiotic beings to help the STARBEAST Procreate its Species.  At some point these Slave Race Rebel and Overthrow their would be STARBEAST Gods... and then pursue their own Creation Agenda leading to the Engineers.

so with this REVEAL we could go back to giving a more ALIEN twist to the Franchise while still keeping with the Prometheus Theme/Ethos

I think the Xenomorph has to be accepted as a Creation, and the Deacon also as another Creation from the Black Goo and what ever.....   But i think it leaves it open to INTRODUCE that there was a Related Organism that shares a lot of Aesthetic with the Xenomorph and that this Organism is Ancient/Advanced and somewhat Civilized, but their Agenda/Purpose would seem Sinister to Mankind...   But maybe their Purpose is NOT Sinister just Natural... 

When we Fish the Millions and Millions of Fish we consume, when we keep Chickens and kill them to consume are we consider CRUEL because we are killing another Life-Form?

So indeed i feel going this route would be a WAY FORWARD it then opens up the avenue to see HOW the ancestors to the Engineers came to be.

*A Race Created by these STARBEAST Gods?

*A Organism Discovered but then Engineered/Evolved to become the more Intelligent Ancestors of the Engineers by these STARBEAST Gods?

*A Organism Discovered that were very Primitive like Cave-men that had the Potential become the more Intelligent Ancestors of the Engineers by the teachings of these STARBEAST Gods?

*A Race who were Dying on a Dying World, that were SAVED by these  STARBEAST Gods?

Which ever of the ABOVE the Ancestors of the Engineers, could have then OWED the STARBEAST Gods a LIFE-DEBT and this would be the requirement of them to Serve them to AID with the STARBEASTS Procreation.

This revealed as the Ancient Past and Origins would bring back that little something VERY ALIEN that we had in ALIEN that has been Lost during the Prequels.

There is a potential Problem with what i have put though, which also applies to your idea Gavin...

If we look at the GOO as having a Purpose to Pass on Xenomorph-like Traits, then we have a Conflict with the SACRIFICIAL GOO i have viewed the GOO just as its indicated in Jon Spaights work (Scarabs) i am also drawn to some Engineers coming into contact with something related to the Xenomorph and they witnessed something similar to the Xenomorph Born from a Engineer who came into contact with a related Organism (they did not create) they became obsessed with this Organism (makes more sense in context to Alien Engineers where our Engineers lost the ability to Procreate/Give Birth to Life) and thus the MURAL was them Worshiping something they Sacrificed to Create the Black Goo...

HOWEVER.... if we Ignore the above and run with a idea like you Propose GAVIN, then we have to explain the Sacrificial Goo..   which then Logically i think we could consider the Engineers Ancestors ONCE they broke away from the Bondage of their STARBEAST Masters... began to then Re-Engineer their Technology (Derelicts) and Managed to Unlock the Secrets of the Black Goo and CREATE a alternative Version that would obtain/use Engineer DNA instead of Xenomorph/Starbeast DNA

for the Purpose of Created Life in their image.... maybe eventually Humans, and we could Ponder then.... Was we being created as Bio-Weapons/Army that could be used by the Engineers against their STARBEAST Masters should they Return?

This certainly could unfold into a Multiple WAR OF THE WORLDS Scenario..  would make Humans the WOLF of the Engineers.

The STARBEAST Plot would be kind of interesting to explore if we introduce a History where there was some Ancient Organism based of the STARBEAST that are Civilized but require a HOST to Procreate.

The STARBEAST has a very FLAWED method of Procreation (if we go only by the Starbeast Draft) for it requires a Host to Procreate.... ONCE all Hosts are used up, then it is only a matter of TIME before this Species becomes Extinct... If we assume they are NOT Immortal.

This ties to Davids Comments in the ADVENT Viral... that sometimes you need to Give Life to the WOLF and the LAMB.  If we look at this in context to the STARBEAST

A Civilized Organism like the Starbeast that has a Life-Cycle where it REQUIRES a other Organism as a Vessel to Gestate and Procreate from within... a HOST would require to GIVE LIFE to these Hosts... because ONCE they run out then its only a matter of time before the Starbeast becomes EXTINCT... well Dormant... until a unsuspecting Organism stumbles upon their Eggs/Spores.

This is what happens in STARBEAST but without any of its own Adult Kind to raise and nurture the Starbeast, it relies on Natural Instincts which is to SURVIVE and Feed and Procreate.

If we INTRODUCE a Ancient Race that would resemble the Starbeast, then it leaves it open to have the Engineers Ancestors to be a Organism these Starbeasts deemed Suitable for the use of a HOST

We then need to look at these STARBEASTS  and ask Are they a Race who have Mastered Space Travel ?

Because if they HAVE NOT then then are confined to their Homeworld, where they would have to use suitable Organisms Native to this World as Hosts!  For this Race to had become Civilized and able to build Temples/Pyramids they would have to have been around for a considerable time and this means their Homeworld would have had a ample supply of Host Organisms to allow them to Procreate and Survive for Thousands or Millions or years.

For a Race such as this, they would have had to have had access to plenty of Hosts at some point... ONCE these Hosts start to be used up, then for this Race you would ASSUME they would GIVE LIFE to some Hosts... because they would NEED their Hosts to also Procreate and Survive or else the STARBEAST race would become Extinct (well Dormant).

HOWEVER.... if these STARBEASTS had been able to Travel the Stars then they would be able to seek out Worlds to find more Hosts for the Procreation of their Species.

We now come to the QUESTION... does the type of HOST make a difference?  In Alien we see the Xenomorph can take Traits of its HOST.  But in regards to introducing a Ancient Star Beast like Race... then we have to ask does the HOST make a massive difference?

This Race can go on to develop and become Civilized, they would likely have a Ritualistic Approach to their Birthing Rituals (if we base them off the Star Beast) and so would a Starbeast Born from a COW grown to be as intelligent as that from a HUMANOID?

If the Intelligence and type of HOST has a massive impact on how Intelligent the Star Beast would become, then it would be ideal for them to seek out a PERFECT Host, or maybe even Engineer a PERFECT Host.

So If this Species, seeks out and either Discover a Humanoid or Create One, or a combination of both (Discover a Species and Engineer/Evolve it) so they end up USING a Race Related to the Engineers for their Procreation Rituals..  Then we arrive at this Scenario..

Such a ideal Intelligent (or potentially) Species would have the Potential of becoming Sentient and wishing to live by its own means and NOT be willing to be used as Sacrifices. Maybe unless their is some BENEFIT to this species to be used as HOSTS..

The Problem with say using Humans as Hosts would be unless a VERY Ritualistic/Religious Agenda can be imposed on these Humanoids where they see the Starbeast as the Gods and the Occasional Sacrifice is in Honor of their Gods or Benefit to their own kind.... (Giving Life to the Lamb and Wolf)  Would be the Potential to REBEL against being Forced to be used as HOSTS..  Lets look at how these Starbeast could use Humanoid Hosts and Procreate them..

1) Keep them imprisoned in Pens/Cages like we would with say Battery Kept Chickens but these Humanoids would be Unhappy and Suffering with these Conditions and their is the Potential they would TRY to escape  and be FREE.... now for Chickens this is NO worry, but for a Intelligent Species that can Procreate this could be a Problem for those keeping these Humanoids as HOSTS

2) Keep these Hosts in some kind of City, Land and give them Freedom, Buildings, Food and allow them to Live their Lives in some kind of Freedom... BUT then have them subjected to a Ritual/Religion where they see you as their Creators/Gods and that the Sacrificial Requirement is required now and again and is of Great Benefit to them, be brainwashing them with a Religious/Ritualistic Doctrine.   The Problem is that again Rebellion could set in if some of the Humanoid Hosts object, or DISCOVER the Truth.

3) As above, but Do-Not reveal the Nature of the Sacrifice, have these Humanoid Hosts believe that Now and Again the Chosen Few are taken away for some Great Purpose and Unaware of what this is... but certainly they have NO IDEA they are needed as Hosts for their Masters... This is kind of similar PLOT to the Movie  The Island and this kind of Method keeps your Hosts in a State of Contempt, and Excitement and Bliss of being Chosen and reduces this Host Species from Rebelling or getting Out of Control.... 

Until some of them Discover the TRUTH!

Scenario 2/3 would be more Ideal if these Starbeasts keep their Hosts on another World... so IF they become AWARE of their Purpose and Rebel, then you can take care of them.  If they are kept on the same WORLD as the Starbeasts then there is the Risk of them Discovering the Truth, Rebelling, Escaping and Overthrowing their Masters.

A PLOT like this could be applied to a STARBEAST Race and the Ancestors of the Engineers, where the Ancestors gain Freedom from their Starbeast Masters... and with NO Hosts their Masters will eventually DIE off and leave the Engineers Ancestors as those who Inherent all the Knowledge and Technology of their Would-Be False Gods and Imprisoners.

This PLOT could also related to between Engineers and Humans instead.

The other OPTION is..

4) The Humanoid Hosts are Grown/Kept in some kind of Pods, like the MATRIX which we then have to ask does the STARBEAST only need our Psychical Body or would the HOSTS need to not be BRAIN-DEAD and so they would need to be kept in some Stasis where their Brains are Active, in some state of SLEEP or maybe some kind of MATRIX REALITY?

So indeed IF we explored a Ancient Race as the Origins of the Xenomorph DNA and Bio-Mechanical Technology/Biology then they would ideally NEED to have the Ideal Hosts and a means to allow their Hosts to Procreate but also be subdued in some way so they cant be a Threat to Rebellion.

The introduction of SUCH a PLOT would allow us to bring in something more ALIEN something more Bio-Mechanical, and also use the Plot of STARBEAST while also keeping with the Themes and Philosophy of PROMETHEUS.

This PLOT is what i was aiming at with my Eventual Conclusion to how i was to tackle Prometheus Sequels.. well it would have been revealed at the end of my Prometheus 3 and left it open to Explore in a 4th Movie.

BigDave where do we see the xenomorph takes traits of its host?

The runner from Alien 3 can be expelled from the cannon, no matter how interesting it is.

@ daliens,

Why would we expel the runner Alien from Alien 3 from canon, Alien 3, as with Aliens (and sadly Alien Resurrection) are all canon installments of the franchise.

@ BigDave,

I fear you are overthinking everything and trying to imprint all of the lore into one cohesive narrative. While I commend your efforts, such an endeavor will only ever result in madness.

My own, somewhat simplistically explained assertions come from what is canon, which is what we see in the movies.

To help bring this thread back on track, what the films show us is that the Engineers are human, frequently use primitive technology, have visited earth during our history and have access to Juggernauts.

Their genetic links to us are undeniable. The question is whether they are our creators or merely a community of our ancestors that were granted sanctuary elsewhere (Planet 4). Prometheus' opening scene would seem to suggest the former, but beyond their access to the Juggernauts there is no evidence that they are an advanced race, yet there is overwhelming evidence that they are primitive (tech, language, lifestyle). As for the aforementioned scene, remember that it does not state that the planet is Earth, or that the life formed from the Engineers sacrifice is anything other than what the rest of the movie dictates - It is highly possible, and likely that said Engineer was sacrificing himself to seed a planet full of Xenomorph life.

Despite their primitive nature and human heritage as likely Neolithic humans, the remaining question about the Engineers is their evidently different (to us) appearance.

I believe this was likely achieved by having neolithic humans used as hosts for a world occupied by the Xenomorphs, which using my King Alien theory (lack of hosts sees a sexually active male that can inseminate Queens enabling the production of eggs incubating a sub-species of hosts) results into genetically optimized humans AKA the Engineers as said hosts.

As for the different appearances in the Engineers, I believe the Last Engineer and his brethren on LV-223 were augmented by the Juggernauts to be able to pilot them through a symbiotic connection though passive role in the chair, whereas the Engineers on Planet 4 are those granted sanctuary and paradise in return for their services to the Juggernauts - destroy your homeworld and others in return for a small patch in paradise.

As for the Juggernauts, it appears their goal is to spread the Xenomorph far and wide, with the Sacrificial Engineer likely sacrificing themselves amidst some delusions of misguided religious grandeur.

As for the Xenomorphs themselves, I believe what we have seen is merely the front line of the species, the first wave. I believe that somewhere amidst the many worlds and many galaxies (possibly even universes) they have subjugated the true dark gods watch and wait.

I believe eons ago an ancient race achieved immortality through biomechanics and transformed themselves into the Xenomorphs - a seemingly feral and deadly parasitoid species that when left unchecked propagates beyond its seemingly restrictive life cycle and is able to birth advanced biomechanical technology (Juggernauts) and through the coding embedded in their AI-Nano-Virus makeup, able to resurrect their sentient and intelligent former selves.

The weapon is not a tool created by the enemy; it IS the enemy.

" There was so much potential on this world. Wasted by Gods that feared their own might. They convinced themselves that sacrifice cleansed them of their sins. But in the end, they were like me. Creators. Beings that understood you must give life both to the wolf, and the lamb. But then they tried to banish the wolf, And undo their creation. So I took their secrets for myself. This primordial ooze ripe with advanced nano-particles. Working off an algorithm based on evolutionary computing. It is essentially a form of radical AI. Making the substance unbelievably chaotic. That generates a unique reaction, to every genome it encounters. Reshaping life. Virtually limitless in its potential & application."

Thinking again about Prometheus,  Covenant,  Advent. Honestly speaking, I don't see any connection between engineers and xenomorph and Space Jockey even with all the display of the refurbished Juggernaut. 

What I understand from Advent :

* The engineers were Creators, like Gods.

* They created the black goo, that was the secret of their godliness (So I took their secrets for myself. This primordial ooze ripe with advanced nano-particles. Working off an algorithm based on evolutionary computing. It is essentially a form of radical AI).

* That black goo had both the attributes: to destroy (the wolf) and give life (the ooze ingested by the sacrificial lamb while seeding other planets).

* Their belief implied the supreme sacrifice as a form of repentance  (They convinced themselves that sacrifice cleansed them of their sins. )

* At some moment in time (at least 2,000 years ago) they renounced this belief and decided to abandon space travels and live a simple, ascetic life within the confines of their home world.

* The black goo was now regarded as evil and its use forbidden (they tried to banish the wolf). David despises them for this decision (There was so much potential on this world. Wasted by Gods that feared their own might.)

* Following a decision of the Great Council of the Elders, the engineers from LV223 were sent to cleanse the worlds that were seeded (undo their creation). Their return home would be welcome by all as a guaranty that any trace of the now infamous past was erased and the new age of peace and harmony could go on undisturbed. 

* Unfortunately an accident prevented the LV223 engineers to fulfill their sacred mission and the long awaited return of their ship was in fact bringing a derailed android and the wolf.

* The mural in Prometheus was a splendiferous easter egg

* The Deacon was the cherry for the xenomorph fans that ate all the cake (I felt it like a foreign body, not belonging in that film).

* Nobody could ever reasonably explain (except if they were smuggled for the black market) the thousands of eggs on an engineer ship (the derelict from Alien) - how were they made, how were they loaded, why they were needed as weapons since they had the urns full of black goo that proved capable of killing all flesh on planet 4.

* If the xenomorph was not a species in itself, I don't see how or why anybody except Dan O’Bannon / H.R. Giger could have imagined / created it. 

* In conclusion I think the only chance of this beautiful beast is to return as the Starbeast.

Gavin

I would have expelled the runner Alien from Alien 3 from canon because it is the first attempt to show that the xenomorph takes traits from its host, thus creating a threat to its perfection. Whatever host it uses, the xenomorph should maintain its purity. We've seen it downgraded in every film, from the biomechanic looks of the Big Chap to the protomorph in Covenant that was banging its head against anything.

I like your interpretation of the Engineer sacrificing himself to seed a planet full of xenomorph life. It could open a new perspective and establish the connection between engineers and xenomorphs, connection that is missing so far. And it might do to the xenomorph some justice. I remember a deleted scene from Alien when the Big Chap was stalking Brett and moved like performing a strange ritual before it grabbed its victim. And the Big Chap had the egg morphing thing too. Big Chap was not a bug, you see JC?

Coming back to your interpretation of Juggernauts and their goal to spread the Xenomorph far and wide, this would mean the engineers are totally submissive to the xenomorph if they help spreading their seeds across the universe, not only sacrificing themselves for the ones already waiting a host. More xenomorph require more hosts. But why destroy the Earth when they can get a good harvest of hosts from it. In this case would have been more plausible to send the derelict full of eggs to Earth instead of the load of black goo.

I'd like to start it all over from the Starbeast, even with engineers as the link between the humans and the xenomorph. 

I'd like to see as well what Ridley Scott has in store for a sequel to Covenant. Who knows how kind a world would be Origae 6?

There is also the fact that everything appears bigger to pre teen kids in space suits ;)

@daliens,

you are almost there, almost...

Sending either the black goo or eggs to Earth ultimately ends with the same result - a planet overwhelmed and then occupied by the Xenomorphs, which over time using the King theory I mentioned sees Earth become another world claimed and controlled by the Xenomorphs.

In Alien we had an egg morphing (egg silo), in Aliens we had an egg laying Alien (collapsed arm), in Covenant we had alien spore sac's (carpet bombed black goo) - whose to say that their reliance on hosts isn't but a temporary element of their lifecycle. If we view drones and warriors as infertile males and females is it not plausible that when needed a hive of Aliens would produce a fertile male to help prevent the hive from failing, which in turn would secure the Xenomorphs hold on the planet allowing the safe rebirth of the true Xenomorphs, the original intelligent ones (see my last comment).

As for your comments towards the mural, as mentioned in another thread the mural is more than just a Giger inspired Easter egg - it depicts the Xenomorph rising from (or floating in) a pool of black goo, with clear depictions of the Trilobite/Facehugger beneath. In layman's terms, it is saying that the Xenomorph comes from the black goo (hence David cannot have created something that already existed). The Xenomorphs pose in the mural is also no accident - the Engineers worship the Xenomorph, it is their dark god, it is their salvation (planet 4, the Juggernauts), and they are forever bound to it (LV-223, sacrificial Engineer), hence the name Covenant.

However, I do feel that I have to address your comments against James Cameron's sequel. Scott (and O'Bannon too, I believe) state in the making of Alien documentary that the inspiration for the Aliens use of hosts came from a parasitoid wasp, and that the Big Chap was viewed as an insect, a bug. When Cameron made Aliens some fans backlashed, citing he had reduced the Alien to dumb ass bugs. In Alien Big Chaps behavior and actions can be entirely explained using parallels found in animal behavior (establishes a nest, secures its offspring and then eliminates all remaining threats). It does not rape Lambert (those are Brett's feet, lazy editing decision #3) as Parker's body is also ravaged in a similar fashion, and Big Chap shows no signs of intelligence beyond using Jonesy as bait. In Aliens, yes many are killed by the marines weapons (which the Nostromo's crew did not have) but despite this, the Aliens turn off the power and outmaneuver the marines, while later on the Queen operates an elevator - signs of intelligence. Cameron added to the franchise, but beyond the genetic trait idea in Alien 3 Giler (not Fincher, as he left before production finished and has since disowned the movie) reduced the Alien back to its primal, animalistic nature, which as you point out has just been echoed ever since.

As for genetic purity - I refer back to the black pathogen, which took the DNA of whatever it contaminated and reordered it as per the Xenomorph template held within the AI-Nano-Virus. It is my belief that the Facehugger behaves in the same way - implanting an embryo (Chief Medical Officers report - Aliens), which then takes the DNA of its host and reorders it in the same way inside said embryo - thus the Alien could acquire traits from its host. This also means that reordering aside Big Chaps DNA was human -  an analogy for being the tool of our destruction maybe?

In a way Scott was right the beast is cooked; as it is, as a primal, animalistic monster. For the beast to survive it has to evolve and adapt, become more threatening, intelligent, sentient - a la Starbeast.

Alien lazy editing decision #1 - see DK's post above

Alien lazy editing decision #2 - see below

This insert was unnecessary, and the scene would have worked better without it. Also, take note that for Big Chap to fit in such a tight space it would have been sat on its tail -, it cannot move freely and thus poses no threat, while the pose held looks like the Alien is asking for help, being stuck et al.

We've seen in Alien Resurrection that xenomorphs' reliance on hosts isn't but a temporary element of their lifecycle, when the queen gave birth to that monstrosity, but the queen had its DNA mixed with that of Ripley's. I do not like that outcome that's why I say the xenomorph need not the DNA of its hosts. Didn't they used cows as hosts in Starbeast, without the risk of growing an udder?

I like to keep it as a perfect organism with acid for blood and taking traits from its host does not mean evolution (it is already perfect).

Instead of drones, kings and queens I would have liked it more that they were hermaphrodites, Giger probably had that in mind and I know Ridley Scott wanted it to have some feminine traits.  But i'd also like to keep the need of consensual host as the absolute must of their survival. The birth of the xenomorph should be a stellar event, its first cry be heard and feared by all across the universe.

About the mural: if it is saying that the xenomorph comes from the black goo that was created by engineers, then the xenomorph is merely a weapon not something to be worshipped. They shoud have worshipped the black goo, and I believe they did until they banished it. There was no other reference to the scene from the mural, so I guess it is an easter egg meant to keep us talking about it forever.

I did not hear those comment from Ridley Scott about the parasitoid wasp but he was referring to the fact that the facehugger used the same method as the wasp to implant its own eggs into a living host body. He never said xenomorph is a big  bug.

What JC did instead: he multiplied so much the xenomorphs that each individual has become insignificant. He has come up with a giant ant queen to explain the eggs (this is the part I hate most), reducing the xenomorphs even more, to drones. From a self-sufficient egg morphing Big Chap to an army of canon meat drones, I prefer the former. As for the signs of intelligence you mention (the Aliens turn off the power and outmaneuver the marines, while later on the Queen operates an elevator) to me they are similar to the use of english translating machine by the ultimate predator in the latest hit of Shane Black. That is way below xenomorph potential and fans expectations.

And Gavin, please tell me if you don't feel insulted by the airlock scene at the end of Aliens, when Ripley opens the airlock without a suit and helmet and holds herself and the heavy weight queen by one arm only, luckily she lost the sneaker, and with it the queen, into deep space.

If I may, in order to corroborate certain aspect, can somebody explain the title of the Prometheus. The myth. Whose actions are Promethean? And how?

This is not a trick question, I just suspect that this is actually not as trivial and actually needs to be grounded.

@Gavin

I can see where you are coming from and INDEED the whole Path/Puzzle that we are now likely heading for (Upset/Crazed Android with a God Complex Creates the Xenomorph by using some Bio-Weapon Mutagen our Would-Be CREATORS had intended for us), is certainly not as ALIEN as our Imaginations may have Pondered in the 80's and 90's or indeed even when the NEWS broke that we would be getting a PREQUEL..

My ideas i was proposing may have been a little LONG-WINDED so here is a Short Version ;)

I think the Engineers may-not be everyone's Cup of Tea especially the Planet 4 Engineers  it seems we are steering towards something far less HR Giger i think that we can Question where the Engineers got their Bio-Technology from and Secrets... the reveal of Planet 4 is NOTHING like what the the Surreal Derelict looked like, with Alien Covenant our Engineers look more Questionable as these Would-Be GODS that Prometheus had alluded too.

When we look at HR Gigers Mural

It seems to indicate something related to the Xenomorph via some like Worm-like Organism... Produces the Eggs and the Xenomorph like Depiction appears to resemble the Derelict  and we see some Space Suited Bi-Pedal Beings (not dissimilar to the Space Jockey) Self Sacrificing ONE of themselves to Procreate the Xenomorph

I think going back to some of HR Gigers ideas/concepts and going back to the STARBEAST to introduce a NEW Species that have FORMED some kind of Symbiotic Covenant with the STARBEAST or are being Enslaved to Perform these Rituals or Brainwashed to do this for some Religious/Ritual Purpose is something we should CONSIDER... if we can get back to something more ALIEN

The STARBEAST would require HOSTS and maybe for some reason they have Chosen Humanoids to be these IDEAL Hosts..  So i was thinking about WHY would the STARBEAST seem to form some kind of Relationship with these Humanoids, instead of using any HOST and also ASK what do these Humanoids Gain and for what Reason would they be WILLING to Sacrifice themselves or are they NOT so Willing?

So indeed introducing some that Genetically well that shares the Aesthetic of the Xenomorph as some more like GOD Power/Race that had Enslaved/Used the Engineers or their Elders to Procreate their own STARBEAST Species is something i think would be ideal and more ALIEN

I think this is more fitting with STARBEAST and HR Gigers Surreal Concepts.   The STARBEAST does-not have to be the Xenomorph but it should share some Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic, the STARBEAST should be the ones behind the Original Derelict ships and the Black Goo

The Engineers revealed as Rebelling (or a Faction) and Stealing the Technology could be brought in to fit with the whole PROMETHEUS Mythos.

So your ideas about the Xenomorph Spreading by the Derelict/Juggernauts as some Master Race Plot, is kind of similar and i can picture this kind of thing had been happening throughout the Galaxy or Galaxies...

But i think we have to Wonder where have these STARBEAST or Xenomorphs been? In context to our Planet Earth and the Galaxy Mankind has Explored...  If the Engineers play such a LESSER Role as only being used/ordered by these Xenomorphs... then we have to wonder why the Destruction of Earth/Seeding Xenomorphs was abandoned and our Planet 4 Engineers had not continued with this..

The VASTNESS of Space could be used to explain in part this..  a theory/idea as you have GAVIN is interesting as it would suggest the Galaxy is Infested with Xenomorphs they are busy Procreating on Many Many Worlds, that Mankind has only Delayed the Inevitable Time when those in POWER Return and have Questions for what the HELL has happened to the Plans for Earth, LV-223 and those Engineers on Planet 4.

I think we definitely need something more ALIEN than our very Humanoid Engineers, where the Xenomorph is just a Evolution of a Weapon those Engineers Created to use on Unruly/Disappointing Creations.

I think HOWEVER... there is scope to introduce something ALIEN but a little different than Xenomorphs, because and this is just my Opinion i think the Xenomorphs/Queens have been done to death a bit and been diluted down, that maybe something a it different is required.... but maybe a REVEAL about the Xenomorphs being more Intelligent and creating their own Various Space Ships and other kinds of Bio-Mechanical Technology could work?

It is HOWEVER a Plot that had been STOLEN and covered by the Warhammer 40K Universe TYRANIDS but maybe something like this could work?  I mean those Tyranids did use Bald Humanoids as some kind of Cult (Broodcoven) that Follow and Assist their Bio-Mechanical Masters... even as far as Sacrificing themselves and also becoming Hybrids.

@Gavin

I will add that indeed despite what ever RS has said, the Movies Dont-Show us that these Engineers are Highly Advanced, well there is nothing to suggest they are GIFTED the use of this Technology by other BEINGS..  and so anything can be explored or Changed...  and so you MAKE a interesting point regarding the Sacrificial Scene.

By virtue of watching the Movies alone... this Scene is not SPOON-FED explained that its how the Engineers Seeded Worlds to create Mankind.    So it COULD be a Engineer Seeding himself to Spread the Black Goo onto a World..

I would ask WHY not use the Juggernauts though?  A explanation was they became a latter more Efficient way to Spread the Xenomorph, and the Sacrificial Scene was set Many Many years before the Juggernaught Technology.

@daliens

Many other works in the Franchise which include Comics have hinted the Xenomorph does take on some of the Traits of the Host, we even see the AVP Franchise use this with the PREDALIEN, be it the Movie, Games or Comics. 

The Runner did Evolve/Grow into something that had more of a Bi-Pedal Stance though, the movie uses a combination of Effects inc Puppets, CGI and the Man in a Suit... at which the Man in a Suit looks much more like our Alien/Aliens Xenomorphs... so maybe as they GROW they revert back to the Bi-Pedal Xenomorph appearance.

"But why destroy the Earth when they can get a good harvest of hosts from it"

Gavin had answered that for you, and indeed we could assume the Black Goo Bombardment would Destroy Life but from this would RISE new life that is connected to the Xeno-Virus just as the Neomorph Spores are.... as David said "sometimes to create one must first destroy"

I will add i have always found the Egg Cargo/Bomber explanation a bit of a Flawed Weapon as far as HOW we assume the Derelict Delivered its Pay-Load....  It is more Logical in LINE with a Theory Gavin has posted a few times, that they Harvest the Eggs from Worlds...  so the Black Goo is the SEED and the Eggs are the Harvest and so those Eggs are NOT being used to Bombard anyplace... they are being collected to be taken to some place.  I mean how would Eggs Survive being Dropped?  And taking them down one by one to a Hostile World does not make much Sense.  But taking them to a place where Sacrificial Hosts are obtained and Stored in some Place to Perform Rituals where Eggs are brought from the Ships and taken to a Sacrificial Chamber makes more sense.

"Nobody could ever reasonably explain (except if they were smuggled for the black market) the thousands of eggs on an engineer ship"

Its one of those things that has Changed over Time...

The Starbeast Plot was showing a Giant Alien Race had came across the Egg Pyramid and was taking samples back to their Derelict Ship. IF we took a continuation of that PLOT and said the Space Jockey was that Giant Race, then it would imply the Space Jockey had loaded up the Egg Cargo... before ONE got to him.   The Eggs Originating from a Separate Pyramid Complex and came as the Final Stage of the Starbeast Life Cycle... via a Egg-Morph.

HR Giger had envisioned that the Egg Silo/Cargo Hold actually Produced the Eggs via some Bio-Mechanical Pregnant Belly (indicated by his Mural) which was to be placed above the area these Bio-Mechanical Apparatus were located.

Ridley Scott kept things ambiguous only that the Egg Chamber as a Cargo Hold with NO indication of where those Eggs came from or HOW they got there, but that they was used as a Bio-Weapon by the Space Jockey Race.

After Prometheus he had informed us that the Egg Cargo is related to the Experiments on LV-223 and something had Evolved in the Cargo Hold... indicating they was a Evolution from the Black Goo or got there by something that had Evolved from the Black Goo.

But it now appears the IDEA is that before Davids Experiments on Planet 4, there was NO Eggs on the Derelict and we are on a Journey towards finding out HOW/WHEN those Eggs get on the Derelict... where we require Davids Creation to EVOLVE a little and end up on a Engineer Ship that ends up in the Vicinity of LV-223. at some point in the next 17 Years after David places his Face Hugger Embryo's with the Human Ones on the Covenant.

And indeed that is maybe not the ideal route most fans would like to have seen.... maybe it can be changed?

"I like to keep it as a perfect organism with acid for blood and taking traits from its host does not mean evolution (it is already perfect)."

It was ASH who claimed this, we see with Prometheus a theme of the Pursuit of Perfection, this does not mean gaining Perfection though.  In the Bible.. GOD refers to Lucifer as PERFECT and then Adam too... yet they both had Flaws, related to Knowledge and becoming Sentient.

If the Xenomorph was PERFECT it would not need a Host, it would not need a Queen.  I think the taking on Traits of a Host would make sense to allow a Organism to Adapt to what ever Environment it is required.   If we look at the Engineers as Genetic Space Gardeners, we could maybe assume they would be trying to Pursue Perfection, maybe this is what lead to their Fall and the LV-223 Engineers Bio-Technology which produced a undesired result a result maybe they then Worshiped?

It appears David was trying to incorporate whatever traits from various Organisms to Produce his desired Xenomorph.

Evolution is something that maybe NEVER stops, when a situation arrives where a Organism would need additional traits/mutations to Progress then these would occur over time.

So regarding the Xenomorph, i think yes at some-point we could see it Evolve to find another means of Procreation. I think the Imagination and Scope of the Beast allows us to introduce some very Interesting New Methods....  take the Neomorph for example...   WHY-NOT introduce a Xenomorph Evolution that can Directly infect a Host with a form of Procreation like the Neomorph Spores did? This would still not be Perfect as it still requires a Host.

"He never said xenomorph is a big  bug"

Ridley Scott has said and i think he also said this before Camerons Aliens... that the Xenomorph was designed and inspired by traits of Insects and also Reptilian it was a ALIEN Organism that had some traits of those but also very Human traits too.

The Queen makes sense as far as a Evolutionary Step to the Xenomorph, if we go by the DC Cut of ALIEN and Starbeast.  When i looked at the Egg Morph scene in ALIEN DC i felt it would be a more Logical way to Produce/Obtain a Queen.  I think a Queen makes sense, i also think we dont need any other Organisms to Evolve upon that such as a KING as i think a Queen that can Procreate without the need for any Fertilization of her Eggs makes a more PERFECT Procreation.

However... a Evolutionary KING like Organism that can directly infect Hosts with something that results in something like a Chest Buster or say like the Neomorph infection would be a Evolutionary Upgrade to the Egg => Face Hugger => Host => Chest Buster Cycle.

BigDave I don't see the point of having a queen and mass production of eggs, unless you see the xenomorphs like bugs and you need them by thousands for a shooting spree.

And after seeing The Predator I can associate the alien queen to the ultimate predator. Any movie that features a queen is a dumb movie with lots of xenomorphs as cannon meat, lots of bullets and dumb macho jokes in between shootings.

And if you say queen is evolution for xenomorph, what is that Predalien abomination?

The xenomorph does not need evolution, it is a biomechanical perfect organism. They may be not reproducing like rabbits, but who needs that?

A xenomorph that can insert a fertilized egg into the body of a living host and either immobilize the victim through egg morphing or just make it unaware, like Kane was after being facehugged, will manage without an egg laying queen.

I know David mentions a queen in Advent but I am pretty convinced it's a queen different from what we've seen so far.

And BigDave maybe it's time to have a talk with the xenomorph, like David tried to tame the neomorph and imprint on the baby xeno. I think this need to see them as intelligent creatures, able to communicate was the reason to change the shape of the chestburster in Alien  Covenant. 

@daliens,

Don't get me wrong. My assertions of Scott's mistakes in Aliens was not an inference that Cameron's film was flawless. The scene you mention in the airlock is, as you pointed out preposterous at best, as is the Queen fitting snuggly in the rear compartment of the drop-ship, or that some fans contest that these Marines were purposefully selected to fail, or Newts consistent ear-piercing screams.

I sense a deep detraction towards Aliens, and a great love towards Alien, which is, of course, your prerogative. But the adoption of genetic traits, a theme you seem to be against is evident in Alien. Big Chaps humanoid form is not only clearly acquired from its host, Kane, but the creature also features a human skull within its carapace. The adoption of genetic traits has been used questionably since (flying Aliens, gorilla Aliens etc.), but it was Ash who described it best when referring to the Facehuggers skin adapting to the environment. Additions to the base Xenomorph form such as the ability to breathe the native atmosphere, run faster, swim better etc. allow the Xenomorph to adapt and evolve. This has since been elaborated in Prometheus and Covenant, showing that the Xenomorph adaptive skills allow for other forms of propagation, of which the Queen route, though the most explored in mainstream media, is but one method - we have egg morphing, we have host born trilobites, we have contaminated fungal spores. The adoption of a host's or an ecosystems genetic traits allows for endless adaptive possibilities, exemplifying the creatures perfection.

It is my belief that the Jordens in Aliens did not find the Egg Silo Kane discovered, but instead found another cache of eggs within the derelict Juggernaut and that as such the Aliens were of a different "breed" than those within the Egg Silo.

@BigDave,

Following on from that point is where I feel the future of the franchise lies. The beast as we know it is cooked. A repeat of Alien and/or Aliens would be derivative, what audiences need is uncertainty, fear of the unknown. To achieve this within the Alien franchise the Beast need to adapt and evolve, cinematically at least.

One possibility could be that the host becomes the Xenomorph removing all need for chestbursters, as was originally Fifield's fate and was hinted at in some concept art (see above and below).

As for the larger picture, the overarching mythology maybe Scott should make a film about David, linking the Alien and Blade Runner franchises together, while a more capable director such as David Fincher (unlikely, I know), Guillermo del Toro or Denis Villeneuve should take on Paradise as a prequel to Covenant, and sequel to Prometheus - showing that before arriving at Planet 4 Shaw and David did indeed find their answers and that maybe Shaws demise was of her own design, not David's (loss of faith from learning the truth).

Interesting. If the Xenomorph is the PERFECT organism, that seems to say it needs no more evolution or even a need to propagate. Indeed, we don't see it actually die in the first two movies. It seems important to ask what is perfection. Ash gave its take in Alien (yes, it and not he), but there can be different interpretations of perfection. I would say that there is no such thing as perfection- only the pursuit of it. That would mean that the Xenomorph could continue to evolve in a myriad of ways like Gavin mentioned.

 @Gavin I don't think what you describe is evolution. For that you need many nonviable variations. In the series, we only see that in Resurrection. If the Xenomorph infection can make anyone anything it touches viable in the current environment (both Kane and the Eggs are foreign to LV-426 and the vacuum of space), why not make it self a body from scratch? Or if it was only a weapon why not remain an airborne virus and multiple in the host by the millions? 

As it is presented it only makes sense if it was made by a sadistic A**-hole and the only one presented in the whole series is David in Covenant.

And what sense does it make to shoot a prequel to a prequel? It would only ret-con stuff to tell a story contradicted by what was implied in Covenant. David arrives on P4, drops the bomb, the engineers die, the ship crashes due to security measures -stated in one of the scripts-, and after that he experiments for 10 years (if he can or cannot leave the planet is questionable, because if he couldn't it would contradict the 300 IQ Scott claims he has in the commentary of Prom).  The only thing we don't know exactly when and how Shaw dies. But from Covenant we find out that David killed her in his experiments, as he promised to do to Daniels. So where is the story here? Furthermore, we know that she would die to save humanity,so what sense would it make for her to accept to birth monsters for some ancient dark entities?

 This is how I see it: if the xenomorph is a species in its own right that existed for aeons in the universe. It has reached the peak of the evolutionary process when it attained the biomechanical stage. It is perfectly adapted to any environment, it needs no oxygen, no food, no water, you name it. Ridley Scott said it can grow back severed limbs. It can reproduce by egg morphing a host and the eggs can keep the facehugger alive for ages. Why not be immortal? And by what right, if it is immortal it does not need to propagate and such to conquer the universe? Maybe only because it is immortal it has such an arbitrary way to reproduce, it has all the time in the world.

By mixing its DNA with that of a host it would only result in diluting its strenghts because the hosts are imperfect. Like when you put the wrong fuel into the tank you destroy the engine.

I consider all the cross breadings that flooded the comic books and films, like the newborn from Alien: Resurrection,  the gorilla alien, the flying xenomorph and culminating with the Predalien, as aberations.

The mutations we see, of Fifield, the worms, Holloway, neomorphs are due to the black goo, that was described as an organic radical form of AI. The connection between the black goo and the xenomorph is yet to be demonstrated. 

I cannot admit that by mixing the DNA of xenomorphs with that of other species (it that's ever possible) will result in an evolved xenomorph,  but the other species would take all the tolerable traits of the xenomorph and would live a short and miserable life , unless the subject is a woman named Ripley (that was partly touched in Alien: Resurrection).

Why does it have a human skull behind the carapace, it is bipedal and it has a tail? Why not? For the beauty of it, the evolutionary process decided these are the best atributes for holliwoodian success. 

All above consideration refer to the biomechanical xenomorph, the Big Chap from Alien. 

But if the xenomorph was created by David, well, we saw it in Alien Covenant...

" I don't see the point of having a queen and mass production of eggs, unless you see the xenomorphs like bugs and you need them by thousands for a shooting spree."

I think the ONLY way to Truly Answer this is to examine what EXACTLY is the Xenomorph.

1) A Natural Organism, were the Natural Survival of the Species is about Procreation, it is what LIFE is all about.

2) A Intelligent Organism, that is capable of more than Primates are and so a Organism that is capable of forming a kind of Civilized Culture and Society where we then ask what is their AGENDA/GOAL.

3) A Bio-Weapon that has been Created/Engineered to perform such a TASK

4) A Creation/Experiment that has been Engineered to behave a specific way by its Unstable/Deranged Creator.

If it is Option 1 then it would be more logical for a Organism to have a Method of Producing as Many Eggs as Possible in the least Complicated/Time Consuming way as possible.  More Eggs the more Chances of Survival, its why Many Organisms Produce more than ONE Egg/Fetus.

One way this would not need to apply would be Option 2 a Organism that is Intelligent and can Problem Solve and have a better suited way to Survival would NOT need as many Eggs/Offspring to ensure its Survival if it has the Means/Tools and Intelligence to Survive in a given Environment where it is the Apex Predator and it can use either its own Might, or Tools or its Intelligence to ensure a better Rate of Survival just as Humans do... then it would not require to be Producing Thousands of Eggs.

Unless..... its Agenda is to Dominate Worlds/Environments if this plays a Part of its Natural Agenda, then having a way to Procreate Faster and in Greater Numbers would be important.  If this Agenda is something that is not Natural but something they Aspire to do.. then they would not Naturally Produce in Greater Numbers but they would look at ways to Evolve themselves to being able to do so.

Option 3 would fit the same as what i said above, anything designed as a Weapon would maybe be Engineered to Produce in Mass... But their is the RISK of things getting out of Control, if your Bio-Weapon can Procreate in MASS and then we have to Consider what is the END-GAME of this Weapons use?   The Nuclear Weapon is the most Powerful Weapon that Mankind has... but if a Country wanted to TAKE-OVER another, then dropping say 200 Nukes would Destroy that Country... but the Radioactive Fall Out would mean this Country would have NO use to you, not for a Long Time and so a NUKE is only Good as a Pure Eradication Device... which the Xenomorph how it is portrayed in the Franchise would also come across as.

However... if they have Limited Life Span (RS alluded to in the past, he maybe changed his stance on that NOW) then if as in Starbeast and Alien... the Eggs can remain Dormant, then as long as you have a means to obtain those Eggs and store them without becoming infected then they would make a HANDY Re-usable Bio-Weapon (something GAVIN has mentioned a number of times).

Option 4 becomes pretty much open to what ever David has intended for them... this could also had applied before David was revealed as the Creator, so prior to that U-Turn, then those who Created the Xenomorph could have Engineered it to behave how it does.

One other thing about a BIO-WEAPON is that it also and maybe this should have been Option 5 but applies to Option 1 being used as a Option 3 maybe by use of Option 4 (which is what Alien Engineers alluded to)...

And that is that we could also look at the Option of it being something Natural, that is then Engineered to be used as a Bio-Weapon.    If your FED up of Flies, then Engineering a Spider that has Wings would help to Reduce the Population of Flies.   If someone Engineered ANTS to Grow to the size of a CAR and they began to start to Build a Handful of Colonies, then Soon they would pose a Threat to LIFE in the inhabited/effected area... Especially to LIFE that has no Advanced means of Defense... 

Imagine the Trojan War, and the Greeks Instead Managed to Engineer/Mutate ANTS that were the size of HORSES and these set up Colonies in their Thousands outside the Gates of TROY once they Tunnel into the City and begin to take over that area as a new Colony then what defense would those people have?   Looking at the Xenomorph it would be used for the same Reason as above by those who could obtain it as a Bio-Weapon.

so what my WHOLE POINT was is to suggest that the means and requirement of HOW the Xenomorph Procreates would depends on WHAT the Xenomorph is..

If we take it back to the STARBEAST then indeed it would maybe not NEED a Queen... or Produce in Thousands.  Just as Mankind does not need to Produce as many Offspring as some other Mammals for Survival... But if we take the Xenomorph back to the STARBEAST idea and Origins... its method of Procreation is VERY FLAWED  as it requires a HOST to create the Egg/Spore Stage and then  HOST to Gestate the Starbeast.

A Colony of TWO Starbeasts would only be able to Procreate another 25 of their Kind if they only had access to 50 Organisms that are suitable as HOSTS this is FLAWED but i guess a Advanced Intelligent Race it could suffice....

If it was some Parasitic Organism, or some Organism where its role is purely Survival or a Engineered Weapon then the STARBEAST Procreation would prove to be a FLAW

"And BigDave maybe it's time to have a talk with the xenomorph, "

I can see you are on the side of ALIEN, and not a fan of ALIENS as per how the Xenomorph had been expanded on in regards to its role and procreation.  I see Gavin is a Fan of the Aliens changes..   its a case of each to their own.

I think from the comment "i quoted" you may be a fan of exploring the way to had taken the Xenomorph after ALIEN to something like its ROOTS which came from Starbeast.  The Procreation Method of the STARBEAST and indeed what was also used in ALIEN DC  is to a degree more UNIQUE than a Queen, more Disturbing too.  The Life-Cycle of both are very similar... but then requirement to see Organisms Mutated into Eggs is more HORRIFIC than seeing a Giant Xenomorph Birthing Eggs.

Not as efficient.... but more disturbing and WHAT can be more disturbing than the ALIEN DC Xenomorph... maybe similar to the Reasons RS wanted to make the Xenomorph a Creation by our own AWOL Creation David.

He felt that showing that these Horrific Beast was created from the Tortured/Deluded/Demented Mind of one of our own Creations who felt Mistreated by his Creators yet is Superior and that allowing such a Creation Free-will/Emotions and then taking them along to meet our Makers who then are revealed to have wanted to Destroy us with a Bio-Weapon they created... and then seeing our Creation wish to Create for himself using that Bio-Weapon is a Great Hubris and a more Disturbing Reality/Horror.

How does this apply to the STARBEAST and Alien DC way of Procreating...?  Because it shows a lot of thought, and agenda had been put into Davids creation... the REASONS for doing so are more Disturbing than the Actual Creation.

So while the ALIEN DC method of Procreation is MORE Horrific and Disturbing, this can be made more so by having the Organism as actually being INTELLIGENT and having a Ritual Society  and revealing these intentions would maybe make the whole Egg Morph Ritual more Horrific/Disturbing.

Its one thing being Hunted down by a group of say Giant Wolves, or Ants...  or a Outbreak of a Virus passed on by Insects or other Organisms...  Its much more HORRIFIC being hunted down by Intelligent Species or say other HUMANS who are then going to Publicly Execute/Torture or Sacrifice you or capture you to deliberately infect you with a Virus etc.

So introducing a Agenda and Intelligence to the Xenomorph would indeed make its actions more than just Naturally Procreating...    What is more Horrific...

*A Virus Outbreak that makes Humans into Mindless Zombies, where a City/Country has to try and escape these Mindless Zombies who are only intent on Eating/Biting and Humanity where they then infect more...

*A Group/Cult or Faction that invade a City/Country and take their occupants away to Outposts/Camps for Execution and Torture.

The 2nd one is more Horrific... the 1st one ONLY if it was the Creation as a Bio-Weapon by Option 2

So indeed maybe if we see the Xenomorph being revealed as becoming Intelligent it could work.  But i think the Franchise has Progressed FAR beyond its STARBEAST roots in context to what the Xenomorph is as we went from a ENIGMA to a Organism that Naturally Survives by its Procreation, with the Origins OPEN... that is then hinted as a Bio-Weapon or USE as a Bio-Weapon.   To now a Creation by a ROBOT that may be intended as its pursuit of being a Creator or as a Bio-Weapon or a combination.

The only WAY the Xenomorph (going by the Plot/Path we are not on) can become something more alike the STARBEAST has to be ONLY if David decides to Evolve it to become Intelligent and then it becomes Sentient and Rebellious as a HUBRIS... which means it follows the same path that had became of David.

Its WHY i think we could still potentially explore something more related to the STARBEAST via introducing another kind of Race/Species where the Xenomorph is just something created by the DNA of this distant and ancient Species.  I also think IF we go this route then this STARBEAST has to have some Aesthetic of the Xenomorph but it also has to look QUITE different.

"I know David mentions a queen in Advent but I am pretty convinced it's a queen different from what we've seen so far."

Certainly to a degree, i think WHILE he may have understood the route Cameron had taken, as a Logical way to expand the Xenomorph (bare in mind not as many have seen the DC cut of Alien).  It would likely not have been the route Ridley Scott would have gone HAD he worked on the ALIEN sequel.  I think RS wanted to do something different with the Prequels, he had no real say on how things Evolved in the Franchise, but he had the chance to do things his way regarding the Xenomorph Origin/Purpose and to explore the Space Jockey Race.    And so i dont think he would be taking us the ROUTE of Face Hugger + Daniels = Queen Xenomorph or that she Evolves into something very like the Queen Xenomorph.

We have to remember a number of things that are mentioned/implied could have MULTIPLE reasons.  David needing to Perfect his QUEEN is not going to be him obtaining a Queen Egg Laying Xenomorph... because that has been done in the Franchise already..  Certainly not as far as giving us the actual Queen from Aliens... but who knows.. if this is the case it must be something FORCED on by FOX for the fans..

What we need to look at is WHAT is a Queen?  which leads us to..

*A Female ruler of an independent state, the Wife of the Male ruler of a independent state.

*A Female with dominating/powerful attributes/personality

So it is a Female with some Power/Authority.

When we look at it in context to the Insect World, then a Queen Bee, Wasp, Ant or Termite is in essence the same, the Authority/Superior Figure in its Colony.  She is the most Important Element of this Colony.

This Queen also is the one who Procreates the Species and is responsible for the Eggs from which these Insects are born.  Which is another reason for her importance.

So in context to Davids Comment... he has yet to find a Perfect Way for him to Obtain/Produce his Xenomorph Eggs.  This does not mean he needs a Female....  but it is certainly indicated that it was via Females that lead him to reach his Goal of his Xenomorphs... so Female Engineers and then Dr Shaw played a Large Role in Davids eventual Success.  But what ever way David obtained those Eggs via a Females Reproductive Organs/Cells he has yet to Perfect a more Efficient way of doing so.

We also have to remember in Davids deranged Mind, he could have seen Dr Shaw as his Queen, if he wishes to Unleash his Creations to Rule the Galaxy he may see himself as their Creator and King, and so Dr Shaw was his unwilling Queen.... but you could be led to think he would have liked to have had her be a more willing Participant in his Creations...  we have to ask IF Dr Shaw was ok with it, would he had needed to KILL her?

Maybe NOT if all he needed was her Egg Cells... and so i dont think his QUEEN would be something as simple as Face Hugger infects Female to Produce a Egg Laying Xenomorph, certainly not one much like the Camerons Queen.

"It is my belief that the Jordens in Aliens did not find the Egg Silo Kane discovered"

I think this is something they had been trying to suggest with Jon Spaights Alien Engineers as a way to cover the differences between the Xenomorph in ALIEN and ALIENS we have had RS mention and indeed Alien Engineers alluded to, that the Derelict/Juggernauts have Multiple Cargo Holds where Each houses a slightly different Variant of the Bio-Weapon/Xenomorph.

@Gavin

I will try and cover this a bit more latter..  but we have seen a lot of changes and contradictions with the make it up/change it as as we go along PATH they have taken, and depends on what Concepts/Drafts and Cuts of the movies we look at that can take us down a different interpretation.

I will right away JUMP to your point and post, and indeed RS had said that maybe Fifield would have eventually broken down like the Sacrificial Engineer and that Holloway would have gone through the same FATE... this could mean Holloway would have Evolved into a Fifield like Beast then broken down like the Sacrificial Engineer or he was just going to break down...  If we look at the effects with the GOO and apply the other concepts, and then look at Jon Spaights Nano-Scarabs we have a CLEAR and simple way to interpret what is going on and the Mural.

But if we throw that out and take on board RS comments about what would have happened next to Fifield/Holloway, and look at the Engineers Dead Bodies..

Then we can come to that IMAGE you posted... and compare it to the below.

We see the Alternative Fifield which the CGI Scene had been based off, and we see a Holloway Prop showing more of those EYE-WORMS escaping from his Body.

If we look at this and the Image you posted GAVIN then what we can conclude from this, is the Pathogen/Mutagen  infects a HOSTS DNA in different ways to HOW it comes into contact and Quantity but we see the End Result the HOST breaks down as its Cells are either Mutated into these Nano-Worms or the Pathogen is Nano-worms who need to consume a HOST DNA to Grow or Re-Produce. 

It could conclude that the Goo would infect and KILL its victim but then replicate itself and escape from the remains of its victim.... but in some cases it also mutates their DNA and Evolves them into a Hybrid of sorts which eventually also succumbs to the Inevitable and just produces many of these Worm-Like Parasites. 

What we have to ask however.... is.

*WHY does this have a different effect on some Organisms, such as to Produce the Hammerpedes?  Or would they have eventually also just broken down to reproduce the Nano-Parasite?   or due to some differences in Genetic Make of those LV-223 Worms was the Hammerpedes a Hybrid of the Parasitic Worms and Native Worms on LV-223?

*WHY did Dr Shaw produce the Trilobite Face Hugger, which i think maybe because the Nano-Parasite has infected a BASE CELL that is a Egg Cell and so we get a Hybrid.   Is this a FREAK event? What becomes of the Dead Trilobite, does it decompose and become more Nano-Parasitic Worms.

WOULD a Deacon and Xenomorph end its Life-Cycle by the same kind of method, decompose/break down into those Parasitic Worm Organisms?

Ridley Scott did suggest the Dead Xenomorph would Regenerate?  Does he mean that when it was KILLED it would grown back to a Xenomorph?  Or does he mean ONCE the Pathogen/Virus/Parasitic Organism as performed a certain function, the resulting Organisms have a limited Life Span before they just break down to become the Parasitic Stage again... which can then Spawn New Life?

Looking at the evidence provided.... i think this is HIGHLY likely...

We then have to ASK how the Xenomorphs come into play, does only certain infected Organisms, end up in the way those IMAGES posted by myself and GAVIN and so any result that leads to the Trilobite/Deacon and Xenomorphs/Neomorphs then go on to Procreate and not REVERT back to some Parasitic Soup.

We then have to ask about the Sacrificial Scene... if we look at the IMAGE that GAVIN posted... which then makes sense to what they said regarding the Sacrificial Scene just seeds Xenomorph's well certainly Parasitic Worm-like Organisms.

But then HOW does the Creation of Humans come into play? do we assume the Sacrificial Scene is NOT how the Engineers Create Life, but only how they SPREAD the Parasitic Goo/Organisms.

"The connection between the black goo and the xenomorph is yet to be demonstrated"

This was something that was interesting and a little ambiguous and its what bugged a lot of people with Prometheus because it was not clear.  Ridley Scott after Prometheus had given (off screen) the connection loosely, by suggesting the Xenomorph and Experiments on LV-223 are connected... he went further by saying something in the Cargo Hold of the Derelict has EVOLVED!

The inception of the Prequels began with the ideas that RS had put to Jon Spaights that eventually lead to Alien Engineers and in Alien Engineers it is not as ambiguous... what we have is these Creator Engineers, Genetic Gardeners of Space who use a Powerful Tool in the Nano-Scarabs to Consume/Dissemble the Genetic Building Blocks of a Organism they come into contact with, this TOOL (Scarabs) then obtain the DNA and traits of this Sacrificed Organism and then loaded with the DNA of the Sacrificial Organism, these Scarabs can then INJECT the Sacrificial Organisms DNA onto another Organism and this causes a Hybrid.... it further shows us a Primate is Bitten by one of these Scarabs that consumed a Engineers DNA and injected the Engineer DNA into the Primate that causes a Mutation... THIS is inferred to be the Missing Link between Primates and Humans... that Missing Link (Engineer DNA) is applied via the passing on of the Engineers DNA from the Scarab (Tool) that consumed a Engineer.

The next time we see those Scarabs are in URNS that Fifield knocks over, some of these Scarabs then end up BITING him and he Does-Not be consumed (like the Sacrificial Engineer) but instead he is Mutated like the Primate.. only with what appears to be XENOMORPH Traits.     The Goo in Prometheus is basically the same as the Nano-Scarabs its only been changed a little... (in Prometheus).

Alien Engineers we are introduced to what appears to be some Organism that is growing in some Caves, we are latter introduced to a area where other Organisms (related) are stored in more Synthetic Containers.  And then are shown that the Engineers Ships contain Engineered/Weaponized versions, but that there is not only ONE Version in the Cargo Hold (Xenomorph) but 7 others.  While its not SPOON-FED the clues point to the Engineers using their Creation/Hybrid Tool on some Organism they discovered to then Engineer the Perfect Bio-Weapon (and Variants) from this Organism.

Prometheus has clues to the same, they are just very vague and can be open to other conclusions..

Alien Covenant shows us David uses the Black Goo to obtain traits from other Organisms,  and Hybridize/Mix those Traits with the Neomorph/Deacon Organisms to obtain his Xenomorph.... 

How is this possible?  Quite Straight Forwards when we consider what David witnessed with Dr Shaws Baby Fetus in Prometheus and then the Neomorphs on Planet 4 and then looking at the GOO as exactly how its indicated in Alien Engineers as far as the Nano-Scarabs.

Sadly this flies against what many may have wanted or pondered about prior to the Prequels..  The Xenomorph itself and its Origins and Purpose is something debated that had different conclusions and likes/dislikes by fans depending on which version they preferred..  it was back then a case of the Alien DC Egg Morph vs Camerons Queen for some fans it never mattered, for some fans they could try and see how BOTH could logically fit and connect.

Some may have wanted/wished to see the Xenomorph be portrayed more like the STARBEAST which the sequels to ALIEN seemed to steer away from....  The Mural in Prometheus gave those fans some HOPE that indeed it reveals the Xenomorph has a larger more Godlike/Advanced role ABOVE the Engineers and its Worshiped by them as a God/Superior being...

But there is another interpretation of the Mural and Prometheus that fits more when you consider what Alien Engineers was showing..  Murals are usually there to Worship or pay Honor to something deemed important. But we need to remember the Cruciform Pose is not a POSE of GOD.

Only in Terms of Jesus Christ is the Pose connected to Worship/God and this Pose is a Symbol NOT of GOD but of the SACRIFICE that was made for Mankind. The Sacrificial Engineer in Alien Engineers took a Cruciform Pose as he was being broken down/consumed by the Contents of the Sacrificial Cup (Scarabs).  Ripley took the same Pose when she was Sacrificing herself to Prevent the Queen from being Birthed and Obtained by the Weyland-Yutani Company.

Its all a bit MUTE anyway as it all depends what route they was taking behind the scenes in the constant change their minds/make it up as we go along PLOT that we have been fed.  None the Less still very interesting to Ponder the Different interpretations and ideas.

"Or if it was only a weapon why not remain an airborne virus and multiple in the host by the millions? 

As it is presented it only makes sense if it was made by a sadistic A**-hole and the only one presented in the whole series is David in Covenant."

Indeed when we look at that, then we can see how much the Creation by David makes sense... or Creation by any other being for a Sadistic Purpose.

As i said before it makes more sense to use URNS of Black Goo than a Xenomorph as a Bio-Weapon.  If the Xenomorph (or related) is a intended result of this Bio-Weapon, where they then go back and collect the EGGS where we have to ask WHY... then that makes sense for the Black Goo... again another look at it in a similar way is they visit a WORLD after it was Bombarded and saw the Eggs and then THOUGHT!!   Thats Interesting... and then they take them for a look/study.

Any idea of Bouncing Eggs down on a World from the Skies makes little Sense....  But those responses i made are likely not applicable IF it is still kept that David is the Creator of the Xenomorph... well it kind of is because we have David come across the results of his Bombardment (Neomorphs) and then he thinks..... thats INTERESTING.

I think Fans can try and debate/wish the Space Jockey Race was maybe not the Engineers, and the Xenomorph is not a Creation of David..   But it appears this is the route we are going.

However... the Origins of the Black Goo/Sacrificial Goo and the Engineers Bio-Mechanical Technology is still something that could be explained as obtained from ANOTHER more ALIEN Race that is more connected to the HR Giger Aesthetic and Starbeast Organism were our Engineers or Ancestors to them are used as some Slave Race or have some Symbiotic Covenant with some Starbeast beings.

But who knows if we will ever explore anything like that and maybe the Bitter Pill to Swallow  that is that Derelict Scene from ALIEN is the case of a SHIP that belongs to OUR Creators that is carrying the Xenomorph Eggs that are Created by OUR Creation.

BigDave, you might be the best person to ask this: were there ever a clue given to us in the series of movies that humanoids(engineers, humans, predators, others(?)) and the beast (and its progenitors in all forms) are in fact related siblings, perhaps sharing a common ancestor at some point(perhaps some sort of bacteria type organism) diverged over time and evolved into two radically different species, where one specie has evolved to exterminate all other types of life forms having muscles and the other has evolved into what we have seen as engineers.

The two species couldn't be more different and are on two opposite sides of the spectrum: one is this being, who is seeding life by sacrificing his own and the other is taking other's lives at all costs(with no regrets or even second thoughts - those mfkers completely lack sympathy/empathy, like, supposedly androids in DADoES) perhaps to give life to its brethren. One is a complete opposite of the other. Good and bad. Sacrosanct and evil. Positive and negative.

Is this not yet another way of telling a story of struggle of good vs evil? Good gods vs bad gods? Good guys vs bad guys? But then again we as an audience are doomed to witness these sort of cliche stories, because such conflicts where polar opposites clash are the catchiest things to grab attention of lots of people.

What I like about Ridley is that he actually goes and reaches out to real experts in many fields and asks for the prevailing theories in the fields and incorporates them into his stories. This way he makes his movies realistic and grounded. Be it NASA when he was doing the Martian or be it AI experts, or sci-fi writers ala Dick, whom he no doubt consulted(or even adapted). His whole premise for AC can be understood in one intriguing idea : say that humans get to build an AI, what if it is emotional and what if humans let it get away(grant it freedom). Will it want to create? Will it want to destroy? Will it find religion worthy? Will it have compassion to its brethen ( David said that nobody will love Walter more than he does, yet, look what he did to Walter. Is this what David calls 'love'? What else does he have in mind?).

We get to see some answers to such questions, if Ridley is given his budget. Alas, it looks like all this, all his ingenuity all his creativity is utterly meaningless in the face of  ... ( continue that talk of Peter Weyland) ... if Ridley is not given the money. It has to be said, in any case, it was a good ride while it lasted. Bravo!

BD:

This is a reply to your post made october 3rd, maybe it is a bit late but anyways.

Maybe that but it takes it closer to the story about creation, Gods and stuff and not the theme about people that get into situations that they are not prepared for and it also downplays the evil corporation kind of thing. Creation and that is interesting but I think that the evil corporation and that is more interesting in the context of the alien franchise.

What’s next? It also depends on how interesting it is and how relevant it is for the franchise as a whole.

“Once we reveal the Xenomorph is a Engineered Weapon... HOW MANY more times can we introduce Eggs, Face Huggers, Chest Busters and Xenomorphs? “

It could work but there is a difference if you focus on people that get into situations that they are not prepared for or if you focus on the themes of rebellion, creation and so on. It depends on how much attention that you give to each of them, but that is not to say that both can not co-exist in different portions in a movie. They can use the monsters in different ways for example keep them mostly in the shadows because what you don’t see is more scary that what you see, right? We have different Star Wars movies with things in common but they were also different so that is why they worked and they also had good characters so I think that is what they need to do in the franchise.

The SJ race is interesting but they have failed with it. They should be bigger scarier and have a closer connection to the Xeno. The focus should still be on people that get into situations that they are not prepared for but I think that they could combine that with the Engineers or some related lifeform. I would rather have the Xenos related to the Engineers than to David however.

“ but i guess the point you are making is that”

My point is probably that it should have been a spin-off and not related to the time-line because now they are about to do it like it would be Prometheus, Covenant, the next one and then Alien. My point is like it would be an alien movie that would have not been in the time line at all or not dependent on it.

“NEVER provided enough Answers for them, it further disappointed those fans.”

There are answers in Prometheus but you should not have to watch it ten times or what ever to get the answers. Some people can do that but I am not sure if even the majority can do that especially if they do not like the quality. I blame it on bad writing and/or execution of it.

“This was the connection they are trying to make, in the pursuit of Creating in your OWN image.”

Yeah, but that is not why I watch alien movies. The prequels are about things that I am not as interested in in the context of the alien universe as how interested I am in the theme of a group of people that are doing their jobs while their employer try to screw them over so they also get into a situation that they are not prepared for which is largely what Alien is about, if you ask me.

They could get the Engineer thing right about creation and warfare if they get the Engineers right and make them the creators of the Xeno, or if someone higher up in the hierarchy made them monsters or what ever, as long as David is not responsible for it because that sucks. The situation now is really bad if you ask me, but they can try to improve it so the next one will be good at least, it is like damage control because that is the situation that they put themselves in. My main problem with the prequels is the characters though and the focus on David.

The green crystal made no sense, I would have preferred if they would have had the cup instead because it connects to the sacrificial Engineer in the beginning.

The hall of heads was interesting so I would have liked to see more of that. Too bad that they seemed to rush through it, as far as I remember it.

If they have the Engineers in it in some way I hope that they will have a bigger role than David. To me they are a lot more interesting since AC kind of made me loose interest in him. Wherever David and the Covenant ends up, I hope that we will have less of David or else there is a risk that we will get another movie about a robot that thinks that he is God. Between the P4 Engineers and the LV-223 ones I prefer the LV-223's they look more spacey.

"Which David/AI fits in and he is also very interesting in the David Angle in this Context."

That is why he should not have anything to do with the writing or else we will probably get another bad android movie. I don't want another David-versus-the-rest kind of thing.

About what kind of worlds where they have been it could be interesting but keep it tied to a story about humans that get into situations that they are not well equipped at handling. This is the most important part to me story-wise because from that you can have well-written human characters, Xenos or variations of them and the Engineers but the story should be human-centered or else forget it. Don't get me wrong, the Engineers are interesting but the humans should be the main thing.

Six movies? With AC in mind he should be glad if he is allowed to do one because it wasn't very good and I think that many lost interest after they saw AC and because of that do not have as lot of hope left in the franchise at least that is how I kind of reacted when thinking about Alien Covenant.

The Carlos Neruda version is my favorite among the versions of the Engineers. I am not too impressed with versions A and B since they look too much like humans. C looks good, it reminds me of some sort of monster that I could imagine that they could have in a Lord of the Rings kind of movie.

"I think a lot of Fans were disapointed the Planet 4 Engineers just seemed to not look as Inspiring as the Prometheus ones, was this only in PART due to the Technological Level and thus a LACK of HR Giger Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic to their City and Clothing?"

To me it was both, the Prometheus one looked more alien and I also had imagined more alien looking planet. Me to me Planet 4 version looked like peasants that lived in stone-huts, not impressed at all. Both the looks of the Engineers and the environment were disappointing so I think that you are right about both.

"So maybe due to the reaction Fans had to those Planet 4 Folk, maybe its the Prometheus types that would be re-introduce"

More like how they were in Prometheus is what I would like to see but the humans should be the main focus because it is those that we as an audience mainly (I think) identify with. At least I do not see myself in David or the Engineers and/or paper-thin characters.

"Or is there SCOPE to introduce us to another related Race, who are Taller, thus would make the Space Jockey Size Anomaly less of a Concern?"

If they do it right then yeah but with possibly just one movie left human characters are number one.

Finally I would like to mention something about the thing of people that get into situations that they are not prepared for. Maybe they could get that right and still have the Engineers in it in some way but have it closer to the Weyland corporation and develop the Engineers and have better human characters. For example the colonization in AC could have been an excuse for the company to get the monsters that they knew of in some way, or the goo in other words the company sold it as a colonization thing but they wanted the monsters or goo it is just that they didn’t say that. I like the theme of a corporation that wants to reach its goal and that doesn’t avoid any means to reach that goal. Unfortunately AC turned into a movie hugely about a mad robot no matter what the themes were because that is how it came off on screen.

Do not remove everything after Alien as canon, both Alien 3 and Aliens are waaay better than Prometheus and Alien Covenant. There is no competition between them because the prequels would loose with 1 point and 15 to the originals, it is that big of a difference.

@BioDegradable

In the Movies its a little difficult to say, it depends what points i try and answer regarding your post...  The Principle shown by the Prequels in the Introduction of our Engineers are they are a Ancient Advanced Humanoid Race who go around Seeding/Evolving life on MANY worlds.  And this opens up a Broad/Bold Plot that Mankind are NOT the only Intelligent Humanoid life that has come from the Seeding/Experiments carried out by the Engineers.

Could this be they created the Predators? in the AVP Universe this could be possible.. but also its indicated that these Engineers are not Gods... and hinted at us to ponder as Dr Shaw asked... Who made them?  and so it is open for debate regarding the possibility of other Intelligent Life that is NOT created by the Engineers but its also open to explore that there is more Layers to Creation  above our Engineers.

Ridley Scott made a comment prior to the announcement that work on a Prometheus sequel is underway..  he proposed the statement "if the Engineers are the Forerunners to Mankind, then What/Who made it possible for Worlds to be able to Support life in the First Place... where is the BIG GUY"

He also at this time mentioned about IF the Big Bang was a Accident and even said that Stephen Hawkings thought it may not have been.  He has also in other comments over the years alluded to Creation/Life not being a Accident but potentially have a Engineered/Programed Purpose... that is that it was PLANNED and that there was something behind Creation even at its BASE level.... now he is Vague in his assertions and with Prometheus and the ideas he is giving us something to think about... where he is treading the LINE between  Creationism by some Divine Being/Purpose and the Big Bang and Evolution offering us that behind the Big Bang and Evolution is some kind of Intelligent Decision in this Process.

We dont know how Deep the Rabbit Hole that RS had planned, it seems its certainly Deeper than our Engineers/Elders being the Top of the Chain of Creation and so the Engineers could belong to ONE Branch of Creation, while say the Predators could have their Origins by a different Branch of Creators but at some-point each LEVEL back we arrive at maybe ONE Source to ALL Creation.

Regarding the Factions of Good vs Evil then this is always something that crops up in many Mythos and Religion and in LIFE it is something with a whole lot of ways it can be interpreted and explained...  so its hard to see how this fits within the Franchise.

It is loosely hinted that we had a ACT by the Engineers that was LIFE giving, but then another ACT that was DESTRUCTION (Bio-Weapons) but then its also indicated this Destruction is just part of the Beginnings or Process to Re-Create New Life or Start Again.

Regarding the Evil intent and Good... its open to debate, i am thinking that RS is setting up a Fundamental Story where again the LINE between Good/Evil is Blurred and what may seem Evil to some Species or in Regards to them is consider for the Good in others.

KNOWLEDGE and Self Aware, Independent Thought, and becoming Sentient and then not agreeing with your intended Purpose, Reasons for Creation and Rules you are to LIVE by that causes Rebellion is a THEME that RS seems to be following that attributes to EVIL.

We are all Born Innocent... most Life only lives by its Natural Reaction to Procreate and Survive.  There is NO Evil or Malice only Nature.  A Machine is but just a group of circuits, wires other synthetic construction.  Without a Power Source it is Innocent and only by the Purpose it is created and those who operate Machines, or Program it does a Machine become in anyway Evil.

So the THEME of Good and Evil, i feel in context to what RS is trying to show in the Franchise comes from KNOWLEDGE, information, experiences and emotion. It is maybe like asking the Question...   If Jack the Ripper was brought up in the same Family/Environment  as say Gandhi would he had been as EVIL?

So its maybe how a being is treated/brought up, what role they are given and how they feel about this that IMPACT how Good/Evil a being could be...  and with David we are alluded to that IF he was not granted such Emotions and Free-will he would have NO Choice in the kind of being he would become and he would not be impacted by his Pride, or how he feels about his Environment or Creators as a Machine has NO Feelings.... its only via the KNOWLEDGE and FREE-WILL that could lead to a being becoming either GOOD or EVIL instead of just Neutral/Innocent.

The other routes to EVIL are by Power/Control and also Survival.

"They can use the monsters in different ways for example keep them mostly in the shadows because what you don’t see is more scary that what you see, right?"

Indeed something that is over-shown can loose its Fear Factor and we have seen the Xenomorph for the most part has been relegated to a Bio-Weapon or for some a Organism that relies on the Basic Need to Survive which some see that the process it does this can be used as a Bio-Weapon..  RS said it right when he said there is only so much Snarling and Chest Busting you can do.    So the Xenomorph's role has to be downplayed and used sparingly.

On another Topic i mentioned the Walking Dead... Zombies are Scary, but you need to connect with the Human Characters for their impact to be more Terrifying, but even with how the Walking Dead did this... there was only so much you could do with Humans trying to escape being Attacked by Zombies... before it gets Stale and the Zombies are NOT Scary.

Zombies are somewhat Mindless, there purpose is to FEED on the Flesh of the Living, thus passing on the Zombie Virus, they have NO Intelligent Agenda, they rely on Natural Instincts they are not clouded by Remorse or other Emotions and the XENOMORPH has been portrayed as similar... while it is more Intelligent than a Zombie, the Xenomorph follows a Basic Natural Instinct to Survive and Procreate.  There is NO Intelligent Malice to them.

so eventually this would get Boring and NOT scary, what is Scary is the AGENDA of those who have Independent Thought and Emotions who have then Created the Horrific Bio-Weapon, or intended to USE this Bio-Weapon to what ever Agenda they have...  in the Walking Dead its the THREAT of Mankind vs Mankind and to what end they would go for Domination and Survival that has the biggest impact.  Sometimes the Zombies are used by Humans to achieve Personnel Ends to their own Survival.

so sorry for this being LONG WINDED... but indeed without Good Characters and Story that revolves around the Evil of some Characters, just throwing Xenomorphs on Screen over and over will just not be Scary and Dilute the Xenomorph to nothing more than similar to a Space Zombie/Bug.   REVEALING the Xenomorph to be a actual Intelligent Organism with its own Agenda and Emotions may WORK but i think that SHIP has sailed a long time ago, and trying to make the Xenomorph more like the STARBEAST may no longer work.

Your bringing up of STAR WARS is also a Good Point... i feel the Alien Franchise suffers the same as the Star Wars will once certain things are changed...

A Star Wars movie that does-not have Storm Troopers and related Empire/New Order and does-not have Jedi and Sith, would be something that Fanboys would just not accept... it would be a case of WHERE are the Storm Troopers and Jedi/Sith.

Prometheus suffered similar because it just did-not have any Xenomorph related Organisms...  Alien Covenant showed that Re-introducing them does not Garuntee a Good movie that pleases fans either... the Story/Characters are partially to blame for BOTH... but its also how Prometheus DID-NOT give Answers and Did-Not have any Xenomorph related Scenes well NOT ENOUGH... and then Alien Covenant... DID-NOT use the Xenomorph and Related as well enough, they was just a Side Plot to the Plot about Davids Arc and his role in the Creation of the Xenomorph which really BUGGED (pun intended) a lot of ALIEN Fans as this is NOT the Origins/Answers they wanted and many felt the Franchise was being too much about AI and David, at the expense of Human Characters, Xenomorph and Engineers... 

But back to the Star Wars point...  i think any Movie or Spin off has to have those things like Empire/New Order the Jedi/Sith but they have to be handled in a Clever and Sometimes NOT overdone way.... and i think any ALIEN movie or Spin Off will eventually at times have to introduce the Xenomorph or Related otherwise many fans will just not associate it with the ALIEN Franchise.

"My point is probably that it should have been a spin-off and not related to the time-line"

In context to the Prequels.... that was the idea... to make it something to explore something MORE than Xenomorphs and to STEER away from Alien.... but those in Power Felt actually the Backlash to Prometheus was because the Prequels should have been about the Xenomorph Origins and what a mess in a way that ended up.

"There are answers in Prometheus but you should not have to watch it ten times or what ever to get the answers."

That is the NAIL on the Head..... a Prometheus that explained a little more that gave some Xenomorph like Monsters attacking Humans, that gave more clues... would have allowed them to then SHUT the Door to ALIEN and move on with a Sequel that would not cover ALIEN the Xenomorph or anything about the Greed of the Company...

But the Risk then is even that may NOT be enough for some fans who would wanted MORE Spoon Fed Xenomorph Origins and the Space Jockey Event... a Prometheus that had more Xenomorpy feel to it, that then would MOVE on to something else would leave some Fans thinking... HANG-ON you dangle this Xenomorph Carrot and now your going to leave it alone... and they would expect a sequel to bring in EVEN MORE Xenomorphs etc.

"About what kind of worlds where they have been it could be interesting but keep it tied to a story about humans that get into situations that they are not well equipped at handling"

This poses a MASSIVE Problem..... how do they introduce Engineers back, and NOT conflict the Franchise, because there was NO Engineers in the Franchise, and so introducing Engineers back into the story they would have to be KEPT AWAY from Earth, and would have to have a Good Reason to then DISAPPEAR to the Far Side of the Galaxy and NOT interact with Mankind again during the Time Period of ALIEN onward's

But you cant have a Movie about the Engineers that does-not have Humans in it, because it wont sit well with some and also having None-Human Races is maybe something the Human Viewer would not be able to CONNECT with.

Having a Movie set Thousands of Years ago... where the ENGINEERS interact with Ancient Mankind, may be something that again would not settle with some fans.  And then some fans are going to want to see more of the LV-223 Types and Xenomorph like Organisms introduced and its HOW would this NOT contradict our Ancient Past.

In HINDSIGHT... they should have Taken David and Dr Shaw to a WORLD Far Far away.... maybe they arrive at a Time-Line that is set Hundreds of Years after ALIEN.

*Do we assume the Engineers only Seeded Earth?

*Do we assume Mankind is the only Humanoid Race they Created?

*Does their Home-world have to be so close.. especially when their Star-Maps/Navigation has other GALAXIES.

So David and Dr Shaw could have GONE to a Place Many Many Thousands of Light Years away or even to ANOTHER Galaxy and this would NEVER conflict with the Alien Franchise.

What about Human Characters?

What if Earth is NOT the only place where Humans had been seeded, what IF the Engineers had taken Humans from Earth and then took them to other Worlds and Galaxies?  If you was the Engineers would you DESTROY Mankind? or would you do what NOAH had done, and go and take a number of Humans who are deemed Worthy and take them to a New Place to START-AGAIN.

The Problem here is Language... do we assume they SPEAK English?   a way around would be that David can Talk to the Engineers and Humans and we get Sub-Titles and they find a way to Imprint the Language into Dr Shaws Brain.

We then get ENGLISH for the benefit of our viewers (or other Languages to countries movie is shown in).

How do these Humans React to seeing another Human, what Questions would they have about Dr Shaw, and David, what Questions would they have for the Engineers about HOW and WHERE other Humans have come from.   What happens when Dr Shaw is able to talk about Earth Culture, Religion, and what SHE knows about the Engineers...

What do these Humans do when they discover who David is?

How would the Engineers React to this... would they then have concerns that Dr Shaw and David could potentially corrupt their Human Colony...  would it reveal to those Humans that the Engineers have been hiding the Truth about their Origins (Earth) so this would leave some INTERESTING things...  some interesting THEMES and things that may Crop Up in Ridley Scotts "Raised by Wolves" only where Synthetic Care-takers are replaced by Engineers.

Then it would come down to David and what if he feels Threatened... or Dr Shaw and then maybe we could see at some point the BLACK-GOO play a Role in Unleashing Hell, be it by David, by Dr Shaw, by a Engineer or by accident by one of the Curious Humans..

THIS ^^^ is in part where i was taking David and Dr Shaw... in my Prometheus 3 idea... which i abandoned in 2014.

Regarding the whole David and AI and Arc.. i see how this fits, and its not merely a case of saying we have Biological Life that has a Spirit/Soul and we have a TIN-CAN Robot that does not..  But this has been covered before and i can leave for another Reply.

BD:

I agree that the Xeno has been sort of over-done, but I wouldn’t mind some other kind of monsters that the Engineers have done. With the love for science that the Engineers seem to have I guess that there are many possibilities for that. Yeah in some way I agree that the Xeno has been used maybe too many times so I would not dislike to see something new. Maybe there could be other monsters (non-Xeno) that the Engineers have found and developed. The focus should be more on the Engineers I think. As far as how much it is used it wasn’t seen that much in Alien and that worked (alright it was the first movie but you see what I mean).

Sure both Zombies and various monsters can get boring but it depends on how you do it. What is scary about that is that it is alien and not connected to humans, that is what makes it work (among other things) if you ask me.

“so eventually this would get Boring and NOT scary, what is Scary is the AGENDA of those who have Independent Thought and Emotions who have then Created the Horrific Bio-Weapon, or intended to USE this Bio-Weapon to what ever Agenda they have... “

If that is connected to David then I can see your point but there is no balance and the whole thing is about the robot and that gets boring. Sure a thinking robot and its agenda can be scary but it will not work if it is only about it and that is what the prequels have turned into (movies about a crazy robot).

“REVEALING the Xenomorph to be a actual Intelligent Organism with its own Agenda and Emotions may WORK but i think that SHIP has sailed a long time ago, and trying to make the Xenomorph more like the STARBEAST may no longer work. “

Maybe, but I would rather have it like that than it being connected to a weird robot. I would rather have it like that than how it is now because what it is now has made the franchise worse if you ask me. Looking back they should have ended after Alien 3.

The problem with Prometheus was mainly bad characters (most of them). I think that the less Xeno approach was a lesser problem even though the monsters could have been better. Honestly I think that the new monsters were interesting even though I did not like the Zombie Fifield (I would rather have had the Xeno version since it looked scarier and was faster).

Yup putting the Xeno in the background and to focus on David was a mistake. I did not mind the less Xeno thing but more David was what I had a problem with. Alien Covenant was better before it became all about David. That movie is not totally rotten but it is in general a disappointment. What is kind of sad is that it might be the last alien movie and that it was the way it was quality wise.

Indeed more Xenos do not mean a good movie it depends on how they are used and if they get the human characters right. I think that Prometheus was too vague in places so they should have worked on getting more clues to things. Yup AC became all about David at least in the second part so that is where it crashed to me at least. Paper thin human characters + a mad robot makes an underwhelming movie.
“this is NOT the Origins/Answers they wanted and many felt the Franchise was being too much about AI and David, at the expense of Human Characters, Xenomorph and Engineers... “

That is how I feel about it, I can imagine many things that they could have had improved. I would like to see a movie that would have had:

    • Better human characters
    • Less David/robots
    • More engineers
    • Have the monsters being tighter connected to the Engineers and their things with the black goo

I can figure out other ways that they could have went that I would have preferred a lot more than what we got. Damn, this is just so disappointing.

“and then Alien Covenant... DID-NOT use the Xenomorph and Related as well enough...”

Yeah I can give an example. Before they meet David there is a monster in that field that kills an X amount of people. To me that was like “well let’s throw the monster in there before we get to David who I really want the story to be about”. That was an example of how they misused the monster because Scott or who ever did not care that much about it. Ridley seemed to be more interested in a mad robot on crack. By the way, it did not help that we did not get any connection what so ever to those that got killed. I can honestly say that I did not even remember the names of any of them. When you do not have any understanding or connection with a character like that then you do not feel anything whenthey get killed. For example in Aliens we get some connection to the marines so we (at least I) feel something when they die but Covenant failed with that. Vasques is my favorite character in Aliens by the way, no competition and that has been the case for a long time.

More clues in Prometheus would have been good because the ideas are not bad (Engineers, life, the universe) but the execution mostly was. The movie is alright (not great but not a flush it down the toilet either) but it could have been so much better.

I think that they could have covered more about the company because there are still things that could be developed I think. Sure things can be overdone but at least we know less about that then what we know about the Xeno or Ripley. By the way the Weyland thing and the greedy company angle could have been explored better in Prometheus which is not to say that it should have been the whole story because I like the story about the Engineers.

“HANG-ON you dangle this Xenomorph Carrot and now your going to leave it alone... and they would expect a sequel to bring in EVEN MORE Xenomorphs etc.”

Yup I can see that some would be like that but I would like to keep some mystery into it. Everything do not need to be explained.

“But you cant have a Movie about the Engineers that does-not have Humans in it.”

I agree, I want to see more of the Engineers and have better human characters. I would much rather have it about that than about David, I don’t really care about him.

I will say forgive me to start... as  have had a bit too much of the Alcohol at the moment ;)

I think first we need to look at the Xenomorph or what ever we want to throw at the Humans because its the Human Perspective that will bring it home to the viewers.

A Lion that runs on the loose and kills people may not make a Horrific Movie, especially of we have 2-3 movies based on Lions running AMOK.. even 3X Larger Ones...

Because eventually its just acting by its Natural Instinct it does not THINK about what to do next, who do i kill, why should i not kill this person...  But introducing a Intelligent Element that unleashes the Beast or Creates a 3X Larger one is the MUCH more Horrifying part of a Story.

With the Xenomorph it became more about WHO/WHY would someone create such a Organism or use such a Organism rather than how the Xenomorph looks at LIFE and what it is doing.   Prometheus attempted to hint at it being created/used against the Engineers Unruly Creations... and Alien Convenient decided that the Arc that David created it was more Horrifying which it is in ONE hand but by the other Aesthetically it takes it away from being so ALIEN and HR Giger to being more connected to Mankind and our $£%^$ Ups basically.

i think in the state i am i cant do a reply justice ;)

But in a Nutshell the more Horror will come from NOT anything that is acting Natural but by something that has Intelligence and Thought be that the Creature in Question of those who Create or attempt to use the Creature for their own gain.  A Chimpanzee is not going to go and KILL someone because they have the latest Fashion Trend they act by a more Natural Instinct rather than Plotting World Domination and throwing each other under the BUS  and the way the Planet of the Apes worked both in the OLD and NEW Franchise shows these Apes in a more sinister role due to the Evolved Intelligence they have which grants them more Free-will and Emotions.

There is only so many times a Beast who is acting on Natural Instinct can be introduced before it becomes STALE even if they get the Jeopardy of the Humans Right.

It is the reveal of those who TRY to use or CREATED such a Beast that makes for the more Sinister Plot... unless said Beast is revealed to be Intelligent itself.  But a Creature that only goes around to Kill and Procreate would not fit such a Intelligent Organism.

I will attempt a better reply when i can THINK better lol

I think the Characters was a Problem...    With ALIEN it was a small cast so you could make the connection with every Character.   In Aliens there was only a handful of Main Characters but there seemed to be more depth/connection with the secondary Characters than there was the Majority of Characters in Alien Covenant.   The Characters that looked like they was supposed to be the MAIN ones are David, Daniels, Tennessee and Oram and Finally Walter.   The Human Characters thus Daniels, Tennessee and Oram as the MAIN Characters... yet Oram and Lope seemed more interesting/depth to them and what their purpose was as opposed to the Survivors in Daniels and Tennessee.

I know fans are disappointed with David and his role and being the Creator... but it follows the THEME of Prometheus which was not intended to be about the Xenomorph Origin.  That is Creation, and Evolution and pursuit of Perfection..   David is but a amateur in his Biological Engineering Pursuit... the Engineers have been doing it for Millions of Years.. IF the Mural in Prometheus was the Engineers dedicating it to something they had Engineered that they had a lot of admiration/worship for, they would maybe be VERY interested in Davids attempt, and i feel the way to conclude has to be to show the Engineers or related Race, take Davids Creation and Upgrade it to the 1979 Xenomorph.  Thus relegating David to playing the Middle Man and the Engineers maybe as those who Started its Evolutionary Path (Black Goo) and then Ended it with the Derelict Eggs.

When we are talking about the Company... we have to consider WHY would the Company wish to Pursue the Xenomorph at a Great Folly over and over, they seemed obsessed with the Organism.... yet WHY not go for the Black Goo and Engineers Technology instead?

Then it all went QUIET until a different company then wished to pursue the same AGENDA and while it may-not be to everyone's Cup of Tea a reveal about the company is being RUN behind the Scenes by AI would maybe explain WHY the Pursuit of the Xenomorph at the Folly to Human Life, if the AI wish to obtain a Creation of one of the FIRST of their own kind.    The Greedy Company who have not a care for the LIVES of those they throw under the BUS in order to obtain the Specimen is a Sinister/Thriller Element to the PLOT. But  you can see RS point of view in exploring that by Hubris of Creating Advanced AI we have unbeknown to us allowed the WOLVES (AI) in Sheep's Clothing to lie among the LAMBS (Mankind) the Horror and Hubris that IF we had NOT played God then we would never be pursuing or even saw the Creation of such a Horrific Monster.  I feel this is where they could have been heading.... even though its not to everyone's tastes.

IF we look back at ALIEN and before David Giler and Walter Hill had introduced the Secret Android Plot, then how would ALIEN had worked with a Human instead?  I think many would agree the addition/revelation that there was a Secret Hidden Android on-board who was ORDERED to obtain the Xenomorph at the cost of all the Expendable Crew was one of the best TWISTS with the Movie, if you looked at it as a Real Event then what a Sinister Revelation that would have been if you was one of the CREW.

But the AI theme is not to everyone's Taste... but it is intended to be a extension of Creation and the Hubris that Sub-Creating can bring and RS had said that a AI does not have to be a Robot... he said that Replicants are AI too.

AI is thus a Artificially Created Intelligent Creation, if Scientist had been playing God and Mixed Human DNA with that of a Ape to create a Hybrid and they Successfully achieved such a thing and then began experiments to Evolve its Brain and then TEACH it stuff.... then this Ape/Human would be a kind of AI because it is not a NATURAL Creation.   A Hubris of doing such a thing could lead to a Scenario like the PLANET OF THE APES movies.

Prometheus and RS is getting us to look at Creation as not being Magically Created by a Magical Being and then we are Loved/Cherished by OUR Creator and Given a Eternal Soul and Spirit and thus Eternal Life by our Creator.

And also that we are not the Result of a Cosmic Explosion and a Series of Events of Evolution from basic Organisms to Humans.

He is pushing us to ponder what is Creation, what constitutes a Soul and Immortality.  And giving us a alternative explanation that sits between the Creationism/Darwinism but then to look at the Reasons for Creation and Reasons for maybe not Pursuing Creation.

But as interesting as this is to SOME... it does relegate the Xenomorph Role to something lesser, which was purely a Bio-Weapon the Engineers Created/Used... to now something that OUR creation has attempted to Create for on one hand a similar reason but also a more Deeper Reason behind WHY he had... IF we had not gone the route of David as the Creator we would likely had just seen the Xenomorph as something a Group of Engineers Created for the Sole Purpose to KILL and nothing more.

Anyone seen this dudes video analysis of AC??

"Anyone this dudes video analysis of AC??"

I could but depends what elements to comment on, there is a lot they are unsure about that i have explanations for.  But this could get into a very large reply and go off topic from the Engineers...

I will comment about the ENGINEERS in context to that video. (ironically its not a everything explained video)

They do make mention of the DIFFERENCE between our Planet 4 Engineers and Prometheus ones, suggesting that those Planet 4 ones look more HUMAN which is a accurate assumption,  they then suggest the LV-223 Engineers are maybe a Genetically Enhanced Version, and again thats a Logical Statement.... HOWEVER... the Genetically Enhanced for Military Purposes MAY-NOT be accurate as there are Counter-Arguments against this Military Purpose that i will leave for another time.

But certainly our Engineers in Prometheus could look Genetically Upgraded, the interesting CLUE to all of this comes from RS who claims those Engineers in ALIEN COVENANT are the ORIGINALS we also have to pay attention to the KEY/MAIN themes of Prometheus which a number OVERLOOK in search of HOW it all connects to ALIEN

The Theme is about Creation, Evolution, Pursuit of Perfection, the Hubris of Sub-Creating especially if you create a Superior being than can become Sentient. We need to look beyond the Black Goo and Xenomorph, but we can see with them how they FIT...  but the LARGER implied theme has always been these Engineers are Gardeners of Space... it depends how we interpret this constant comment by RS but if we look at the context of HOW these Engineers are linked to our Ancient Culture/Mythos and Religion and HOW their Home-world relates to PARADISE it really draws us down a Specific Route as far as SPACE GARDENERS.

Ridley Scott had mentioned the NEXT movie would be more about AI, but he also went on to say David and Walter are AI but also the Replicants in Blade Runner are AI... and in this he is trying to suggest we need to look BEYOND AI as being Mechanical as RS is getting us to consider that a AI does not have to be Wires/Circuits so bearing this in mind it could be a INDICATION that the Prometheus Engineers are maybe some-kind of AI to those Engineers on Planet 4, they could be to those Engineers as Replicants are to Mankind.   IF it is not this connection, then those Prometheus Engineers have to fit in with the THEME as being as a group who have taken to Genetic Manipulation and attempts to Perfect themselves at a Great Hubris.  a Hubris they may have realized was not worth the Pursuit of Perfection and maybe shunned those ways to Perfect themselves.

Thats in part the Planet 4/LV-223 Engineers covered.

Now i turn to the ELDERS... this scene was removed by RS because he DID-NOT want to meet GOD in the first movie, he also said the beings Dr Shaw would meet would NOT be Gods... this IMPLIES our Prometheus Engineers are at a lower level than the beings David and Dr Shaw would discover on Planet 4, which implies the Prometheus Engineer Replicants connection.

The ELDERS being removed means we cant assume those beings who was on the TEAR-DROP ship will appear as those ELDERS did...  as the occupants of that ship were NEVER revealed apart from Deleted Scene, we cant assume they are Humanoid of Connected to the Engineers.

The HALL OF HEADS does show beings similar to those Deleted Scene Elder Engineers... and RS had mentioned these beings are the Wise-Men (Ancient of their kind) the Apostles (keepers/teachers of the Ritual Ways) and Superior Beings (but Superior to who? Those Planet 4 Engineers the LV-223 or just Humanity?).

What is implied is these Hall of Heads (more Carvings of their kind in the Mountains) are the Hierarchy of those Planet 4 Engineers the Founders of their Species, Culture and Ways.

The guy in that Video makes a Good Observation that we DONT see the TEAR DROP ship... If we look at the City/Plaza in Alien Covenant, and NOT via the Concept work then the Hanger looks Large enough for a Juggernaught and the deleted scene shows more than ONE Juggernaught is already located in the HANGER but from this vantage  it seems the Hanger is only Large enough for ONE at a time for those Ships to come/go and they must line up via a Rotating Platform... this Hanger is also NOT big enough for our DOCKING SHIP

We have to ASSUME maybe the TEAR DROP ships too...

It appears this City is the ONLY one location on Planet 4 for these beings with ONE Hanger. This fits more with what is Paradise in context to the Garden of Eden (cover another time)

So what we can conclude from this is that MAYBE the TEARDROP ships are NOT from Planet 4 and the Engineer in Prometheus claims he was not from LV-223 but from Paradise if we assume this to be Planet 4 then it indicates his Origins are from this Place... just as David's are from Earth.  This place is also were our Planet 4 Engineers Originate from.

We know while these beings are connected to our Creation, its indicated the Planet 4 and LV-223 Engineers are NOT the Top of the Hierarchy

This means it leaves ROOM for those Hall of Heads Engineers to Originate from another Place and NOT Planet 4 or even the Occupants of the TEARDROP ships to NOT Originate from Planet 4

If Planet 4 is connected to Paradise, then in context to the Biblical Account here is what Paradise was..

*Paradise is NOT were GOD (Gods) come from or inhabit

*Paradise is NOT were the ANGELS (lower creation of God) come from or inhabit

*Paradise is THE Location where the Garden of Eden is located (Cradle of Creation), a Garden/Place Enclosed off from the rest of Paradise where Mankind (Origins) were created and watched over.

*Paradise (Garden of Eden) IS watched over by the Cherubim Class of ANGELS

If we look at Planet 4 in this context it maybe allows us to have some insight onto the role of the different Engineers. And thus this PLACE being the Location of Humanoid Origins as in context to the Planet 4 Engineers and how they connect to us.

Meaning we HAVE YET to see the World that their Creators/Hierarchy have come from.

I saw this the other week. Winters Dream 2307 (Winter Soilder)

Seemed to use some ideas from the Alien/Prometheus and Blade Runner Franchises...

Plot is that in the year 2307 the Earth has became VERY COLD that Mankind has to Live Underground, but they Create a Artificial Humanoids to Carry out Tasks, These Humanoids (who look like our Prometheus Engineers) become Sentient, Rebel and are then targeted to be Destroyed by their Creators (Humans) but some of these Humanoids Escape.  so a Task Force is used to HUNT them down.

Why is it relevant?

These beings are like the Prometheus Engineers, they have White Skin are Psychically Superior and have Black Blood.  The movie uses some of the Philosophy of Prometheus, and indeed from Alien Covenant to a degree (yet THIS movie was out in 2016) there are parts that discus the SOUL and how these beings HAVE no Soul, like how David does-not... but then its shown actually they do have a Soul, depending on what is a SOUL. (if its not the Spiritual One that goes off to Heaven)

It touched upon a Fear of what happens when these Created Humanoids could Procreate, and this worry becomes a Reality which is in part WHY the Humans then Order the Destruction of these Beings who just want to live among us (very Blade Runner).

I am not saying its a Good Movie, some interesting things but its NOT well executed ;)

But in Context to this TOPIC....  i think we could ponder if the PLOT of this Movie (Winters Dream 2307) could FIT with the Prometheus Engineers Creation/Relation to maybe the Planet 4 beings?

could the Prometheus Engineers had been the WOLF?

I certainly are drawn to them being either a Engineered Creation by those Planet 4 Engineers (or their Creators) like say David and Replicants are to Mankind...  

Or those Prometheus Engineers are a Faction of Planet 4 Engineers who took to Enhancing themselves without the Consent of the Hierarchy.

I am very Drawn to the Prometheus Engineers being more connected to David, as far as Creations meant to Serve.  Or they used the Creation Secrets to Enhance themselves to CHEAT Death and Upgrade themselves.

Oh that Movie has the Lead Bounty Hunter with the Name Bishop!  And the Leader of the Rogue Humanoids is called ASH-393 who comes across quite a bit like David.

Can see where it took some influences from ;)

I'm pretty sure rebellion has been in movies ever since. In Terminator (1984), humans created Skynet, it turned against humanity and created an army of
robots.
In another 90's cartoon, I forgot its name but in it, humans created a genetically enhanced version of themselves and used them as slaves on other planets. Those humanoids rebelled against humans and soon took over the entire Earth.
In Blade Runner, humans created an enhanced version of themselves called replicants and used them off-world, and throughout the series, replicants rebelled against
humans.
Similar thing in Matrix (1999) and how it all started, the war between humans and machines (it was explained in Animatrix 2003 "The second renaissance" parts 1 and 2). There's another film Automata (2014) but I don't feel the need to talk about it.

As far as Engineers creating the pathogen and then wanting to use it as a weapon, writers and Ridley stated engineers didn't originally create it.

I'd like to mention one underrated horror film from 2017 called Trench 11. In it, during the final days of WW1, a group of soldiers was sent to investigate an abandoned German facility deep underneath the ground. There they discovered Germans were experimenting with some kind of parasitic worm that produces itself inside the host's body, causing the infected host in the process to become extremely hostile and attack others by infecting them. Those things got out of control so Germans attempted to blow the whole facility up but something went wrong with the explosives so they just shut the whole facility, leaving the infected trapped inside.

Also in Overlord (2018), a small group of American soldiers during WW2 discovered that Nazis was conducting experiments in an attempt to create an army of soldiers with enhanced strength, speed, etc. It was also stated in the film and Germans didn't originally create the serum that causes those mutations, but they discovered it deep underground in France and experimented with it.

What's even scarier is that in reality, Nazis were actually experimenting with performance enhancement drug called D-IX that was supposed to give their soldiers superhuman strength and be harder to kill. Luckily, the war ended and the drug was never introduced.

Will have to check those out ;)

Indeed the Themes have been covered in Numerous Movies.

I just find it interesting in HOW we had Ridley Scott refer to the Engineers in Alien Covenant as the ORIGINALS... we saw they looked different which some fans noticed/complained about as our Prometheus Engineers looked more Godlike and Superior to our Planet 4 Engineers.

So they are NOT worthy Creators.... where as those in Prometheus looked more worthy!

But a thing to remember is Peter Weyland was a Creator and does he look more Godlike and Superior than David? The Answer is NO!

so when RS mentions our Engineers on Planet 4 are the Originals, then it does suggest that those in Prometheus are Created/Evolved much Latter... and THIS is something i think would be interesting to consider.

Its always considered that a Creator/God would be more Superior to their Creation... but maybe thats NOT always the Case.

I for one are Concerned we MAY NEVER see much of our Engineers again, or Discover more about them, for instance where did the Bio-Mechanical Technology Come from?

The idea i had for a Prometheus 3 would have taken Dr Shaw and David to a World inhabited by Engineers and Humans but then i would have expanded on this with a connecting movie that would touch up more on the Bio-Mechanical Aspect in another Part of the Galaxy or another Galaxy all Together.

The Events could have then lead to the Engineers and Hierarchy returning back to our Part of the Galaxy many Hundreds of years after ALIENS.  And brought about and explored a kind of WAR OF THE WORLDS...

I think its a shame a lot of Fans and likely Disney would see the Franchise as having to Center around the Xenomorphs... but the Engineers/Space Jockey are something that would have expanded the Franchise beyond that.

I am sure Fans was Disappointed at Alien Covenant, as far as what to expect from our Engineers and Discovery more about them.

I think it would have been nice to see some various Bio-Mechanical Ships and Buildings...

Buildings/Ships with say Conference Rooms like this.

Also when considering the Weyland Yutani Military Sulaco Ships..  i wondered what would a Engineer/Space Jockey Answer be to them?

I always liked the HR Giger Train Design.... and thought it looked like some kind of Mother Ship...  like the Imperial Alliance Battle Ship from Star-fleet/X-Bomber

Loved to had seen a Engineer/HR Giger Version of that.

Which to me HR Gigers  The Train looked like.

Talking about The Train.. its a shame this Project/Movie was never made, some of its Elements/Plot could have been used for a Engineer Ship that goes around Collecting Various Life-Forms.

Or maybe David could have similar kind of Horror Plot turning the Covenant Ship into The Train?