Alien: Covenant. A Load of Old Trash.

Another idea i had which i felt was a bit too different for our Engineers Creators, but something i pondered but at least was looking to introduce as at least another Creation by those above the Engineers was combining again, that Fifield Bust with this other concept, at least giving it a Mouth and Elongated Head... so ONCE again you have to use your imagination to see how this would MERGE.

I think certainly it could work as some kind of Starbeast.

Something i can add to the main Topic and what could be the Fundamental Flaws of Alien Covenant are...

Firstly Prometheus (among other Flaws) DID-NOT show us the Xenomorphs Origin, it did not give us any answers to HOW those Eggs came to be on the Derelict.  It DID-NOT have any Xenomorphs or any real like-wise Monsters apart from the Deacon at the END... However it lacked the Xenomorph like Monsters rampaging and Killing the Human Characters be that the way Alien and Alien 3 handled a Single Alien Threat, or how Aliens and Alien Resurrection handled Multiple Alien Threats...    With Prometheus there was no such scenes, we only got a Kind of Face Hugger/Chest Buster Money Shot.  A number of Fans were disappointed at this and also a Prequel that DOES-NOT give Answers to ALIEN but only loosely connecting the Xenomorph was likely a Bio-Weapon Created by the Space Jockey.

What it did do was give us a insight into WHO the Space Jockey Race are and their Agenda/Purpose by introducing the Engineers Plot.  And a Sequel looked like it would cover this more and steer away at least from anything related to ALIEN.

Fast Forwards to Alien Covenant and RS/FOX deciding to actually give the Fans a more Alieny Movie that will START to address the Xenomorph Origns and Introduce them back into the Franchise and Eventually via Sequels could lead us to the Back Door to ALIEN (maybe showing us HOW the Derelict Event happened).

This set up the HYPE TRAIN....

Those not happy with NO Answers regarding the Xenomorphs Origin, Purpose and HOW it ended up on the Derelict, could be in for a TREAT as it appears we are FINALLY on the road to give those fans those Answers.  We would be seeing Xenomorphs again, we would be seeing something NEW too, we would be getting a Scene that would TOP the Original Chest Buster and a Movie that would Scare the $"%"& out of people!!!!

What is there NOT to look forwards to?

Concerns may have started with those who actually DID-NOT mind the lack of Answers and Xenomorphs, and were looking forwards to seeing where David and Shaw would end up and WHO they would FIND and Discover more about the Engineers, while touching upon the Themes from Prometheus, while maybe getting some Answers to what was going on in more detail on LV-223.

But it seemed we are off to where those Engineers came from and Hope we may find out more about them, and we would at LEAST have David to expand upon..  Fans were Curious what Role and How Much would Dr Shaw have.

Marketing Machine was in Full Swing, we then got Trailers, few Preview Posters (Egg, Xenomorph) and other Material and a VERY Deceptive Poster.

Then it came TIME!!!!

And this is where it all started to go Wrong!

Firstly i would like to say that Characters in Movies Can and often Need to make some Bad Decisions in order to drive the PLOT... No Horror, Thriller or many Sci-Fi Movies would not be the same if in Retrospect the Characters could foresee the Errors they would make and look at them as the Fans would after the Movie or During... (dont go outside in Dark, dont open that Box etc etc).  But some Movies can have people doing more Stupid Things... But this is NOT really a Major Problem of Alien Covenant.  The other Movies in the Franchise people got KILLED from making some Mistakes, some Silly..   Little Qualms like WHY they never worn any Space Suits and similar could have reasons but reasons that would take up more Screen Time and so are Neglected... on this account the Covenant Mission and Crew could be Forgiven for making Mistakes compared to the Prometheus Crew.

Next we have to look at Characters... and sadly as with Prometheus maybe more so, we simply DID-NOT get Good enough Character Development and Execution, and only Oram, Faris, Karine and Lope (to a degree) we could related to their Purpose and their Reactions... the rest of the cast were VERY Forgettable (David/Walter Excluded) but then we also have to look at the MAIN Characters, and Daniels and Tennessee basically had little impact as far as what Main Characters should be, considering their longer Screen Time and Purpose... Imagine if those Characters had a Short Screen Time as Faris and Oram?  They would be Totally Forgettable.  Does it raise Excitement and Anticipation to what happens with Daniels and Tennessee next?

With Dr Shaw it was different because while Flawed, we knew SHE was off to meet our Makers and GET ANSWERS. But Daniels and Tennessee are just off to some Planet to Build Log Cabins.  I can see they had tried to Flesh Out Characters by having a LONGER Build up like ALIEN had, but we just never got the same Depth/Execution as we had with ALIEN, the Characters in Alien Covenant did have (a good portion of them) as much Screen Time as say the Top 4-5 (Air Time) in the other Movies but they just DID-NOT draw us in as well as the First 3 Movies did.  The Viral Marketing was to make us connect more with the Characters, but this was NO USE to those who DID-NOT see them.  And to add them into the Movie would have affected the Pacing of the Movie....

Which Brings us to the MAIN Culprit....  The Limited Run Time, compared to HOW MANY things it was trying to cover.   The SLOWER Buildup was needed to trying and introduce us more to the Characters who are going to Mostly End up DEAD. This took Quite a lot of Screen Time, before we got to Finally Land on Planet 4 and Explore.

Leaving us a Run-Time were certain Plot Points had to be Forced and Rushed and others passed by or Brushed under the Carpet.   Contributing Potentially too...

*The Quicker Gestation Period of the Xenomorphs (this varies in other Movies especially AVP ones).

*The Very Quick Growth of the Organisms (Bare in mind Neomorph is different) but then Growth Rates vary again within the Franchise.

*The Limited Screen Time of the Organisms (Neomorph and Xenomorph) this was simply not enough to Justify them...

*The Potential for Not having any time to Deal with any LIVE Engineers or more explanation to what happened, never mind MORE about their Species (Prometheus Fans must have felt Cheated) Plus Engineers who seemed FAR less Godlike and Awe inspiring than Prometheus.

*No Time to Explore what happened to Dr Shaw Between the Crossing and when SHE met her END... it appeared things seemed ok between her and David prior to Arriving at Planet 4

If they tried to add depth to each of the above by giving Each Just a Extra 5 Minutes, it would add to the Running Time, and more so with a extra 10 Minutes Each of Engineers, Dr Shaw (Flash Backs or Explanations by David) Never mind showing us a extra 10 Minutes of Xenomorphs/Neomorphs.

The Bigger Focus was upon WHO would Create the Xenomorph and WHY and WHO had caused the End to Dr Shaw and the Engineers.....  The Focus was on David and some Creation/Philosophy Themes from Prometheus.

I can understand WHY to a degree, but so many Parts of the Plot had been laid to Waste, which was for Reasons i mentioned above... But as David also Killed the Engineers and Dr Shaw... this had upset some Fans... as HE is now to Blame for WHY we dont get more of Dr Shaw and the Engineers.

A portion of the Plot Seemed to be around HOW/WHY he created the Xenomorph rather than showing us the Xenomorph in Detail... the Reveal that HE created it again is something that has upset Fans and maybe caused a Dislike for his Character.

These Disappointments seem to Over Shadow the Reasons why we are being shown WHY he has done what he has done, but this REVEAL is Totally against what Most Fans would have Hoped for Regarding the Xenomorph Origins.

They also seemed to Over Shadow the Interaction and Differences between David and Walter, and how they connect to the Prologue with Weyland and HOW they fit in with the Themes of the Prometheus and Engineers, for some Fans these Connections and intentions are somewhat has hard to Follow as the Engineers Connections to the Xenomorph (Black Goo) etc in Prometheus

There are some Scenes with David were he comes across a bit Cringe-worthy and Bizarre, compared to his Quirks in Prometheus.   The Flute Scene! But there is a meaning to it and connection, but it came across a bit Homo-Erotic, Bizarre and maybe having a Innuendo.

It seems a lot has been SACRIFICED in this Movie to make it be around David, where some thought the Xenomorph would have a Larger Role and be about the Xenomorph, Sadly for those who expected this.. it was not the case and i am sure the David Creates the Xenomorph due to Certain Issues (some Fans Overlooking the Prometheus Themes/Philosophy) is something that DOES-NOT sit well with most fans NO-MATTER how RS wishes to Spin it. (Myself i get it).

The Execution of Davids Character, the Emphasis on just HIM is something that certainly can put a lot of Fans OFF his Character and Direction... One Big Gripe that the Xenomorph is now his Creation and THUS there is NO Eggs in the Derelict or even a Derelict on LV-426 some 17 years prior to ALIEN

There are bound to be other GRIPES too.. which kind of have explanations, well could have.  These Range from HOW the Engineers lacked the Bio-Technology for the Most Part compared to those in Prometheus never-mind touching on some Gripes from Prometheus to HOW those Engineers and the Juggernaught look NOT-QUITE like the Derelict and Space Jockey...

The Appearance of the Xenomorph also was not something that pleased some Fans, Especially the Chest Buster.. this Xenomorph looked unlike that from ALIEN.

Does this mean THEY are not the Actual Xenomorphs? wishful Thinking it would seem..  There are differences, BUT as RS has mentioned we are NOT-QUITE there yet regarding the Xenomorph.  Which implies that Davids Creations will go through some Changes before we get to the CARGO on the Derelict, Changes which SHOULD include HOW/WHY/WHEN does the Xenomorph become more Bio-Mechanical.  The Xenomorph in ALIEN does look a EVOLUTION of Davids Creation... a Problem HOWEVER is that the 1979 Chest Buster and Gestation Rates/Process seem like a DE-EVOLUTION

The Face Hugger/Gestation (not forget Lope) and Chest Buster (plus Growth) seem more Effective in Davids Xenomorph, compared to that of the Franchise.. But the ADULT in the Franchise seems more Effective/Evolved than Davids Adult Xenomorphs.

So ALAS... there are a Number of Problems with Alien Covenant and the Potential Direction it is taking us.

@BigDave

Quite a thorough run through of the fundamental flaws and gripes that have certainly been well aired since the release of AC. As to whether some of these gripes can be adjusted in the future remains to be seen. I do believe that there are some tricks that can be used to rectify some of the many issues raised and as time passes by, I now see that some of the minor gripes have the potential to become more problematic.

Since the release of AC the clock has been ticking and there have been some big changes in technology and the way movie viewers wish to see an end product. There have of course been changes in who is responsible for putting the end product on the market. With so many things having happened since the release of AC, I would say the nature of movie viewers has changed and will continue to evolve.

I am just going to focus on what is my biggest area of concern, that being the character of David. I am picking this out for special consideration because since the release of AC I have certainly seen more of an increase in stories wanting to pursue AI.

Hollywood likes to play it safe when it comes to making movies and has for a long time pursued tried and tested formulas. I think there is a danger however that there could be an oversaturation of AI inspired movies. If that does become the case, then would anyone really want to run out to watch a third instalment where the main Character is AI. Will the fire for such a movie have burned out?

One thing I would have liked to have seen introduced, would have been a completely new alien race. Something new and different.

Since the clock has been ticking, and continues to tick I think the David story should be ditched in the most part ( though not completely).

I am also one who does not believe that the beast is cooked. There is a lot to be said about the way a subject is presented, and when you have a director who appears to have lost interest in the main character of a franchise, then that’s just like making a Spiderman movie with no Spiderman, or a Godzilla movie with no Godzilla.

One sad truth that I think must be faced is that when Alien came out, it was put together by a specific and very talented team who are no longer present to form a collaboration that gave us the first movie, which was cutting edge, and very, very different and original.

Just as something of an add, I think a possible way of treating David that I could go along with, would be that at some point during the crossing with Shaw, he interacted with Engineer technology and his programming had been infected and new codes, info and missions added. One such sub programme could have been to destroy the so called Engineer planet, and he was also given the knowledge of how to create a xenomorph through a data transference. The end result is that David had become Not David.

Certainly i can agree that the Xenomorph was one of the Main Elements of the Franchise, i do agree a little with Ridley Scott as far as prior to the Prequels we really had explored the Beast to a  Point that it was No Longer seen as big a Iconic Threat, this was not Helped in Part by the AVP Movies.... My Point being pretty much like how we have for example Jason Voorhees and the more Friday the 13th Movies we see the Less Impact he has compared to Originally.  You can add more Gore, you can add some Background as far as his History but all he pretty much does is go around and KILL people.  Thats pretty much the Nature of the Beast... now as far as the Xenomorph we see it Procreates via that Horrific Life Cycle that requires a Host, we see these Organisms seemed to go by Survival Instinct where the Objective is to Procreate, which they can do via a Queen Laying Eggs... We could introduce the Egg Morph and maybe that would Provide some Shock Value for a while.  But all the Xenomorph does is Capture some Hosts for Procreate, Kill to Protect its Hive, and Kill those not needed for a Host..  then REPEAT.  There is only so much Chest Busting, and Snarling and Killing that can be done before just as with Jason Voorhees it can get repetitive.

RS used some of those Phrases, but he did also make a few more, when he said that he thinks IT can go another few more rounds, he also said one time during Alien Covenant release that it has to be about HIM and you can EVOLVE HIM and i wonder if this was David? or the Xenomorph?

So the Beast is NOT quite cooked... but you have to be Careful on how you introduce and handle it, go the route of a AVP movies or Alien Resurrection or even ALIENS too often and eventually the Xenomorph may loose its SHINE and could become STALE.

The Problem is the Xenomorph is Heavily Associated with the ALIEN Franchise when you see the Prefix ALIEN while you may think about Ripley, Weyland-Yutani... the ALIEN references to that ALIEN Organism that was First Introduced to us on Screen from that Cargo of Eggs.  And eventually when working on the Prequels they decided they wanted to actually do something else, to expand upon the Franchise because there was more Elements in the Franchise than just the ALIEN (Xenomorph) and they chose to explore these and the Space Jockey (Engineers) and by even calling the Movie Prometheus they was trying to show us that while this connects to the Franchise/Universe they are wanting to explore a different Tangent.   The Problem is many knew that Prometheus was a kind of Prequel to ALIEN and set within the Franchise but could not separate it from ALIEN and so expected it as a Prequel to Explain the Origins and even maybe have Xenomorphs.  You cant blame those expectations, because indeed the earlier Prequel Draft was Alien: Engineers and by the fact it had a Alien Prefix you would expect more of a Alien Connection... and YES this is what Alien Engineers had done.

While Prometheus was not supposed to be a Literal Prequel and they intended to go off and steer away from the Xenomorph, by VIRTUE of the U-Turn to make a ALIEN prequel series.... they opened up that Door of Expectation Once again!

And indeed we was given a Origins Story (start of one) and indeed we got introduced to Eggs, Face Huggers, Chest Busters and the Big Chap... But they was NOT done enough Justice and DID-NOT have the same Impact that even the later Alien Movies did (inc AVP), the Neomorphs kind of had a different Impact because it was NEW. But the Xenomorph just failed to LIVE up to what it had Originally been.  Then we have the David creates IT, which makes it LESS Alien than what we could possibly had imagined.

With the IDEA behind the Prequels of the Xenomorph being just a Engineered Bio-Weapon  on One Hand this may reduce its Role a little, and make it seem Less of a Threat/Importance if its just a Wild Experiment by the Space Jockey, but RS had this idea even in the 90's and so without the Bio-Weapon Origins.... we have to ask HOW and WHERE do they take the Xenomorph, because there is only so much Queen + Eggs + Hosts that you can do.

There really was only maybe TWO options..

1) Expand on the Xenomorph, even as a Created/Engineered Bio-Weapon maybe they could show it Evolve, Become Sentient, and start to Grow in Intelligence and Scope... and GO Beyond those Primal Instincts that ASH admired.  Come to the Species then have its own Objective rather than to rely on Natural Carnal Instinct

Maybe this could have worked... we only have to look at David and his Evolution came about from the Humble Computers before David we had Mechanical Machines, Printed Circuits and Software Programs to allow Machines to complete Certain Tasks.... the Advancement of AI means we could eventually Create a AI as in a Machine and its Programing that can become more and more Advanced... UNTIL the Point it BECOMES Sentient..  and has its OWN Agenda... IT no longer just performs simple Tasks.. It becomes DAVID and his Twisted Mind and Agenda... IF all Machines become like him then we are DOOMED.

So we can take this and apply it to a Xenomorph, where they EVOLVE past the point of being a AI (Engineered Life-Form) that just acts by Survival and Procreation.

2) They keep the Xenomorph as just a Bio-Weapon, but were the LARGER thing to explore, is the Wicked, Cruel Intentions of WHOEVER would Create Such a Bio-Weapon and to what END.  And this is where Prometheus started to show us, by Virtue of the Black Goo and Experiments to show us clues to HOW the Xenomorph may had been created, but by not showing us THEM or how... but to delve into the Reasons WHY someone would Create Such a Horrific Beast.  And so the REASON for its Creation could be more Darker and Sinister than the Actual Bio-Weapon itself.

EBOLA is a Horrific Disease, a Mass Outbreak in a Large City of a Country like the USA or a Major City in Europe or Japan could potentially bring the Deaths of Millions. Especially if it INFECTS over a wide area before its determined where they Outbreak had came from.. and Imagine if it MUTATES so that it also be passed on as Easy as the FLU?  This would be Horrific and ONE of the Largest Threats to Mankind...

But as Horrific as it is...... WHAT could be more is if we Discover the Virus was a CREATION or a Bio-Weapon, intended to Wipe-Out the Population of a Certain Proportion of Mankind.  Its to WHAT END was this Creation  that becomes more Horrific than the Virus itself... was it a Accident, was it NOT supposed to Get-Out?  Or was it INDEED intended to Get-Out...  Its exploring the Reasons for the the Creation of such a Bio-Weapon and the Intentions of those who Created that become more Darker and Sinister than the Virus/Bio-Weapon Itself.

I am not saying EBOLA is a Bio-Weapon i am just using this as a example, for say like the Black Goo or Xenomorph  and the reveal of WHO/WHY it was Created as Potentially being more Sinister....   and this brought us to the U-TURN and CURVE-BALL that our Friendly Android David did so... and as a Hubris to Mankind for Creating something and allowing it Free-will and Knowledge.... because this also Fits with the Theme of the Engineers and Prometheus and so David was that STEP of the Ladder that RS thought... you know what, the Ultimate Hubris could be because of OUR own Creation and PLAYING GOD.

I get it and Potentially its Great.... IF for one moment we look at this as a Stand Alone Franchise and the Android Creates a Horrific Organism....  But as its the ALIEN Franchise... it diminishes the Iconic Xenomorph more, and more so its a reveal that is FAR from ALIEN as when we first saw that Derelict and its Cargo and Dead Pilot.

A lot of Damage has been done with the Xenomorph, do they carry on with OPTION 2 or try for a OPTION 1?  Its maybe a bit TOO-LATE to go for Option 1 but Option 2 is potentially Damaging but more so is something that goes against what MOST Franchise Fans feel the Xenomorph and its Origins should have been.

So they have to be CAREFUL how they use the Xenomorph and HOW to take it from here.... do we Abandon it before we do any more Damage, Relegate it to what it now appears a Engineered Bio-Weapon, that Survives on Instinct to Survive and Procreate and through this that it becomes such a Deadly Kill-Switch Bio-Weapon.

so that we can explore the other uses of its Origins... the Black Goo and what kinds of Horrors this can Produce, as the Black Goo Plot does allow for Massive Differences in Horrific Monsters and applications.

Option 1 and 2 could be combined if we introduce and apply these to another Race and its Agenda..   I just think it would take a MASTERSTROKE to carry on the Xenomorph if we are going to cover them over and over...  Unless Movies that Pan out like the AVP and Colonial Marines Games are what Fans would want to see.

It really is a case of HOW much can we keep showing the Xenomorph and HOW we are going to put it over, were those TWO Options are maybe routes we have to consider... stick with Number 2? or attempt to EVOLVE the Xenomorph as a Sentient Species just as David has become compared to a Basic Robot/Machine?

Regarding David and AI... i think RS is trying to show us that AI and Creation does not have to be simply a case of you have created a Robot.   They could have replaced the David Plot with a Replicant, or a Advanced Engineered Human (kind of same thing) it is still a AI, which our Xenomorph is also, even as far back as prior to the Prequels it was envisioned as a Engineered Organism.

But taking on board some of your comments about David etc, then indeed many may see him as NOT Human or a Life-Form but just a Robot.... but this is something they can CHANGE.

My Prometheus 2 was to cover the reason for Davids Creation which was that Weyland was attempting to Create the Perfect Vessel of which to UPLOAD a Human Soul, i touched up on Weylands attempts at Creating the Vessel as a Success, his attempts at Complex AI a Success... However to Upload the Memories, Emotions of a Human to Function as a AI  was a Failure...  it worked but the AI Program could not handle the Complex Emotions and would Deteriorate/Go Mad!  Thus leaving Weyland NO option but to turn to Dr Shaw/Holloways Pursuit of Gods as IF they are correct, and we can go MEET our Makers they offer him the Last Desperate Chance of IMMORTALITY which his attempts before via Science had Failed!

I can see David in future uploading himself into a Walter Body and maybe even further Systems.... indeed in part this is what i planned with Weylands Soul in my Prometheus 2/3

so looking at my idea of Weyland UPLOAD his Soul to a AI.. i think this would be Mankinds Ultimate Aim (for a few) to Cheat Death, as ONCE we can upload our Memories, Emotions and what makes us who we are to a Machine... then we could in effect become IMMORTAL.

But a Weyland Uploaded to a Synthetic would still be seen as a ROBOT!

Now let me throw a Curve-Ball what if we did a Vice Versa?

What if David could upload his Memories, Emotions into a HUMAN or another actual Living Organism?  Does he do this himself?  Do the Engineers or their Creators have a way to do this, do they GIFT David this or does he STEAL this?

Pinocchio becomes a BOY!

Would Fans still see HIM as a AI now? But they woulds still look at his Malice and Agenda and view this as him having NO Humanity or Nothing we can Relate to and Feel for him... (would he not be far off most of the Human Cast then lol ).

Would such a Change be seen as a GIFT?  Would David doing this have any Benefit, because he could become MORTAL, even if he is in a Super Hulked up LV-223 Engineer Body.  Accomplishing this would come at a HUBRIS because David could then be infected by his own CREATION or even the Black Goo.

But what IF he was tricked?  His AI Soul Transferred to what he thinks is a Evolution, but then Shock as he finds out he has been Transferred into a Mortal Body.... who could TRICK him, or who would Do such a Thing?

David would have to come to terms with being in a Organic and Mortal Body and the Horror that could present to him and maybe this could make him gain some Humanity or have us feel some Sympathy for him.

I am not saying this should be done... but your comments had allowed me to indeed think of HOW we could get David to be seen and Transcend to something that is not just  Robot...  Imagine if the Engineers make a Pact with him and claim they can Provide him a Superior Body, and Transcend his SOUL only to be given a somewhat Mortal Body or one that is a Amalgamation of a Synthetic Aspect, but also Biological that in Reality is just a Advanced Biological Vessel.... One that makes him Bio-Mechanical

ONE that allows him to become Victim to his OWN Creation and what a Hubris for him.

I will agree the AI heavy Plot can come at a cost.... because we do indeed see a number of AI Movies, and also movies about Creating Hybrids (i watched SPLICE the other day). The longer a sequel takes to come out and the more of these kinds of movies that come out in the mean time, does mean by the time we get a Sequel a lot of people could just look at it as "oh just another one of those movies"

Another Problem with the AI Plot is the delay.... David is a Synthetic, he should not AGE and the longer they leave it the Harder it would be to have David look like a 35 year old Human Synthetic.... without having to use some CGI.

The longer the movie takes to be made, the more chances are of us seeing David as only a recovered Corpse that gets Re-activated like Bishop in Alien 3.

Regarding Davids creation, i think its a case of Curiosity and intrigue into what made the Engineers Creators, and how his Father saw himself as Godlike because he was a Creator.   David would have witnessed enough to know a Starting Point is to Infect Dr Shaws Reproductive Cells with the Black Goo... he would discover the Black Goo is a Splicing and Evolutionary Tool to Create Hybrids and Extract and Apply Traits of different Organisms in the Pursuit of combing these Traits to create something Perfect.

Daliens: OK but I still think that it looks stupid since it indicates that David created the Xeno which makes it look worse than it could have been. Oh, I found a clip on Youtube so he did not speak after that. Thanks Youtube so I did not need to watch the movie again.

BD:

"When i mention Lope i still think there is not much depth to his Character as what is needed, but i just feel in the shorter amount of Airtime he had, he seemed to have more impact in his limited scenes…"

OK, now I understand. I kind of agree with that

"One Interview he would be taking us down the Path that he is not FOND of this or that...... then in another he goes on about the Movie should be about the things he previously was not in Favor of... and then he can change his mind again."

He has many ideas but he is not very structured and sometimes I think that he might contradict himself, that is at least the impression that I have gotten from listening to some podcasts. As far as the A to Z they could at least ave some basic ideas of what they want to do and some sort of idea to get there, like a bullet list. For example "we want to go to D and to do so we must first know how A B And C will show be."

Without that it is just a mess, right now they throw out ideas and pick up some of those and develop it. I do not think that this is a good way to run these things.

The Alien guide or what ever it is named seems to be a good thing. Number 1 and 2: focus on story and characters. The philosophical ideas might be there but they should not be what it mainly should focus on but then there are interesting ideas in Star Wars also and let's say X-men 1 since I am not sure if I have watched the rest of them. X-men is a movie where they also got the characters right by the way and also the themes so it is a good mix. What a lot of the movies that I like have in common is that they have well done characters since I am interested in what they go through and for that to work I got to understand them but that means that they also need to be well written. As far as I know Moulder and Scully were also like that in X-files, well written so therefore the story and characters worked for me.

I totally agree that they should not answer everything

I would like to say something about the Engineer and the space-jockey. If they make the Engineers like the one in Prometheus and think about scale for the SJ it might work but if they decide that the Engineers are those on planet 4 then they need some other lifeform to be the SJ.

About retconning things I would rather like to see them retconning AC mainly because it has David as the supposed creator of the Xeno but also since it is not a very good movie. Sure Prometheus was not great either but I think that I have bigger problems with AC because of what that means to the franchise although the characters were less annoying. Having said this I still watch Prometheus from time to time, I still have not watched AC since I saw it in the movie theaters.

Sure there might be a lot of things to include but then it would make a more expensive movie to make, right? Because the company that make the movie, and the movie theaters and so on are about profit then it needs to do well and if it costs too much then they might not want to do that movie and also after two let downs then one might question how big the interest is for a third.

Not very interested in David and what he will do on the ship, give him less of a role or something. I have lost a lot of interest in that because of Alien Covenant. They probably did not want that but that is the effect that it had on me. Still it was interesting to see the differences between David and Walter but it was too much about them. Better human characters and less androids please.

I take Aliens over Alien Covenant any day.

"Regarding the Space Jockey.... i think the Engineers could have fitted the Bill apart from Size Difference."

Agreed but then maybe the Engineers are of different sizes.

As far as who the SJ is it looks like to me to be some sort of humanoid creature in a suit. Just because it seems to be doesn't mean that it is, it could be something else in the suit.

I sort of liked the new monsters in Prometheus although they could have been a lot better. Still years after I am disappointed in the Zombie Fifield instead of the Xeno-ish one. The Engineers were interesting, it is just too bad that they got pushed to the side in Alien Covenant.

"We would be seeing Xenomorphs again… we would be getting a Scene that would TOP the Original Chest Buster"

Having interesting monsters does not mean that it will be a good movie. I sort of enjoyed the new monsters in Prometheus although they could have been better. What was that scene that would be better than the original chest-burster? The back-burster was interesting and well done, just too bad that the victim as many of the rest was just an anonymous face.

People that die from dumb decisions OK, people do bad things but if the characters would have been well done then I would have been alright with that. Poorly made characters plus bad decisions adds to a bad movie.

“Next we have to look at Characters... and sadly as with Prometheus maybe more so, we simply DID-NOT get Good enough CharaCharacter Development and Execution...”

A hundred times yes although they were less annoying in AC they lacked personality except for Oram, David, and Walter. Sure I understood the reactions of Faris and Karine with the Neomorph in the ship when they used that gun but I still did not understand their personalities. Yes they were afraid but who would not be? That does not make me see how they are in full as characters, sorry. Daniels and Tennessee had no personalities.

“They would be Totally Forgettable.  Does it raise Excitement and Anticipation to what happens with Daniels and Tennessee next?”

I agree, I do not really care but that is something that they should have taken care of before they started to shoot the movie. Go over the script again and make sure that the characters are relatable and well-done but they did not learn from Prometheus.

“The Viral Marketing was to make us connect more with the Characters, but this was NO USE to those who DID-NOT see them.  And to add them into the Movie would have affected the Pacing of the Movie.…"

Yeah but I would rather have those in the movie even if the pacing would be a little off. They should have used some of them and if necessary cut some of the time with the Androids talking about creation or what ever parts that were less necessary and interesting. Sure it was interesting to see the differences between David and Walter but that scene was too long and slow so replace some of that with (human) character parts.

I would rather have had a movie with more of the Engineers and less of David, that was a shame. Having him responsible for the Xeno is crap.

“… the Reveal that HE created it again is something that has upset Fans and maybe caused a Dislike for his Character.”

That plus it was all about him, and that he is portrayed as a psychopath. I bet that there could have been a lot of other things that could have replaced some of the David scenes that would have made for a better movie. David creating the Xeno, thematically it might work, story-wise it sucks.

I kind of liked the interaction between Walter and David and to see the differences between them but their discussion was too slow. The homo-eroticism in the flute scene didn’t bother me that much but the discussion was too slow and too little happened. That scene should have been more like how David interacted with Oram before he died, it wasn’t as slow.

“It seems a lot has been SACRIFICED in this Movie to make it be around David”

Like 70% of the original movie? That was a very bad decision

I understand the idea of David creating the Xeno, I just don’t like it. As far as the gestation time of the monsters and that it was not problem for me. My main problem was the characters and that it was all about David.

“They keep the Xenomorph as just a Bio-Weapon, but were the LARGER thing to explore, is the Wicked, Cruel Intentions of WHOEVER would Create Such a Bio-Weapon and to what END.”

I do not mind that, just don’t let David be the creator because it takes it too close to humans. It should be more alien (no pun intended) and the Engineers kind of fits into this so let the Engineers be those that made it or found it and evolved the monster. More about the goo and the Engineers would be nice to see.

"Without that it is just a mess, right now they throw out ideas and pick up some of those and develop it. I do not think that this is a good way to run these things."

Regarding the so called Alien Guide they have written,  hopefully this helps with Future Movies. A Problem is this was written in connection to Alien Covenant as Canon, which means this NOW Set of Rules to Follow could have David as the Creator...  Which wont sit well in Future with many Fans.

But as i have mentioned a number of times a large theme is EVOLUTION and the Xenomorph has been through Stages of this.... starting with what ever the Engineers had done on LV-223 from these Experiments relating to the Mural/Deacon.... David was able to use this and Create his Xenomorph.   He had taken what the Engineers Started and EVOLVED it!

This does not sit well with most fans, and i think we need to get back to something more ALIEN and once the Xenomorph Origins are done, how much more can we show?  The Space Jockey Race should be the BIGGER part of the Story.

If David has taken what the Engineers were doing on LV-223 and Perfected it.... i think it makes more sense to come FULL-CIRCLE and the Engineers to then take what David has carried on and then FINISH it or have those who Created the Engineers come in and FINISH the Process. Which makes David the Middle Man....  He did NOT START or FINISH the Process..

It began with what ever Started on LV-223 in terms of the Black Goo or what it was used on that lead to the Mural, and it should END with a process at the hands of other beings and NOT David to Evolve his Creation to get us to the 1979 Xenomorph.

This allows David to play his Role and keep with what RS was doing, it allows for the Themes and Ideas set by Prometheus and the Alien Engineers draft.... and while it wont please EVERY Fan (some who will want the Xenomorph to be its own Ancient Species/Race) It gets it back to the A (Alpha) and Z (Omega) of the Xenomorphs Origins being connected to the Space Jockey Race or its Creators and where David merely just filled in M-O

Regarding Characters, this is Vital... and indeed its sometimes hard to do in a Movie, when the Plot is deemed more Important.....

A TV Series allows for Deeper Characters and maybe a TV Series that introduces Characters and Builds them is better, a Short TV Series say 6-10 Hours, that then Sets Up and acts as a Prologue to a Movie is maybe were the Said Movie can Follow Plot Points but we would be attached to the Characters that are Developed from the TV Series.

I think this could be the way to GO!

"The new Captain Moron has just shot dead the evil android's pet alien, which had munched off his crewmate's head. Evil android is super pissed about this, and yet Captain Moron obligingly sticks his face right over an object that looks suspiciously like a big, slimy egg when evil android tells him to."

I think you might have missed the reference to the lavender-like balm that David offered before the captain looks over the egg JamietheBastard. It was in the novel and the deleted scenes.

This might have tied both films together for you. 

BD

Well then throw out David as the creator, they have changed things so they could change that also. Many would be like me and think "that beast that looks so different a product of a crazy robot? Lame"

Maybe they could do a last prequel and then shut it down for a while.

"David was able to use this and Create his Xenomorph.   He had taken what the Engineers Started and EVOLVED it!"

I do not mind it if David is not the total maker so to speak of the Xeno. Having the Engineers in the link of the evolution of the Xeno could be alright because then it is not a pure result of a mad robot. This should have been done before they made Alien Covenant so David would not have been the creator of it but now it is about damage-control.

I think that it could be interesting to see the SJ life-form. Since they have damaged the image of the Xeno in the prequels then I think that they must make up for that by making the SJ life-form great and mysterious. Everyone will not be happy about that but art least that could keep some mystery in the franchise which has been damaged to an extent by the prequels the way that they have gone this far.

"The Space Jockey Race should be the BIGGER part of the Story."

That could be interesting, it depends on how they make the SJ race. I think that it could be interesting if they are about militarism, colonize different world, and so on. Maybe they could make this work but I am not sure judging from how they have done the prequels this far. There are a lot of ideas how the SJ being would be but the thing is to make it interesting and they need writers to do that. I am not sure if the writers of Alien Covenant could do that. They need to find someone that can make human characters, and that can make a good story. Of course I am not saying that this is the easiest thing to do but I think that is what needs to be done if they do not want to dig a bigger hole so to speak.

David in as the middle-man or as the maker of 4, 5, 6 in a link of 1-8 would not matter as long as he is not the one that makes the final monster.

I really hope that they will make keep the black goo as a mystery, they did not handle it that good in Alien Covenant. They really should not have made Alien Covenant but now the damage is done.

"… and while it wont please EVERY Fan (some who will want the Xenomorph to be its own Ancient Species/Race) It gets it back to the A (Alpha) and Z (Omega) of the Xenomorphs Origins being connected to the Space Jockey Race or its Creators and where David merely just filled in M-O"

Yeah but now it is about damage-control. We can never get a prequels series that is a 10 out of 10 but depending on how they handle the third one we might be able to keep it at a 5 out of 10 regarding all three movies as an average.

A TV-series that develop characters might be a good thing but they got to be in the movies also. I would watch one if they do that part well, it might improve that current situation of the alien franchise.

Ingeniero:

Yeah, I remember that scene but they got to keep things like that in the movie otherwise many people will think that it is stupid. Keep important things in the movie and not in deleted scenes or books because not many will look those things up compared to the movie.

I was trying to joke with JamietheBastard with the bowl reference clearing up everything Thoughts_Dreams.

You're right though. I had a friend of mine pumped up to watch Alien: Covenant right after Prometheus a week ago or so. The viral campaign for Prometheus seemed to work years back because it was mysterious and didn't really hold a key to the story. 

Not so much with Alien: Covenant, during review, his eyes glazed over and I was provided with charitable smiles. Advent, Meet Walter, and a trickle of concept art images didn't provide the same momentum for Alien: Covenant that we saw for Prometheus. The Crossing was made well but should have been in the movie. 

In regards to the recipe for the biomechanical xenomorph, the know how may be like the red-shaded glass found on Oak Island. The ways to make this shaded glass centuries ago were lost, rediscovered and adapted, then lost again. The way I believe I understand it, David resurrects an old xenomorph building process that was lost to time and timidity.

Advent

"Advent" is the prophetic anticipation celebrating the birth of the Messiah...a celebration of the event and Advent also refers to the celebration of the return of the Messiah. I believe the meaning behind the title Advent was referring to a "return" of the xenomorph. One seen in the past, harnessed by the Engineers, and then rediscovered and deployed by David with good manners..."May I ask who's in charge?"

Motes

"An animal species that propagates via plant spores? WTF? In Alien the creatures' breeding cycle was based on that of the parasitical breeding habits of certain species of terrestrial wasps, believable and horrific. Here a guy gets infected when a plant spore floats into his ear, pathetic and laughable"

"How the hell did the solar flare get into the captain's hypersleep chamber? Why was James Franco even in this movie? This scene was unneccesary and ridiculous. As was this terrible movie."

Both of the above quotes, to me, touch on material outside of the film JamietheBastard. You might have hated the film less if it had these items in Alien: Covenant.

First, the motes to me were more appreciated once familiar with David's notes. Second, I believe that Branson was fried by corporate email after a poor review by the suits that visited the Covenant ship in Earth orbit (Alien: Covenant Origins novel). Both are details that could have helped out in the film.

I really like the Citizen Kane reference above...I use The Godfather in the same context. THE PREDATOR made Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome look like The Godfather.

"I think that it could be interesting to see the SJ life-form. Since they have damaged the image of the Xeno in the prequels then I think that they must make up for that by making the SJ life-form great and mysterious"

I discussed in another Topic the Scale of the Space Jockey and Proportions, i estimate it to have been about 13ft in ALIEN

They intention was to have the Engineers as 12-15ft, then that got Revised down to 10ft but in Prometheus we can clear see they are not that LARGE, introducing another Race that Matches the Space Jockey Proportions and is say 10ft Tall or maybe 12ft would be maybe the best way to go. 

The Space Jockey should still remain a Space Suit, and the Occupant Humanoid, but they DONT have to look like Humans/Engineers.

I think the Space Jockey should remain a mystery- an unanswered question for us to argue about :)

Certainly DK...

How many in Hindsight wish the prequels was not going to go that route...  The PROBLEM we have is they surely (if they consider another Movie) they cant just avoid the ENDING of Alien Covenant and ignore what happens to David, the Covenant, Planet 4.

The Question is HOW do we leave the Space Jockey a Mystery?

Do we consider that maybe Davids Creations END UP on the Derelict in there Thousands but we never get shown, WHEN/HOW/WHY and Ultimately we wont know WHO the Space Jockey was?

The other side of the coin is it would maybe allow Fans to just assume and regard that Davids Xenomorphs just  DO-NOT get on the Derelict and THUS the Space Jockey Event and Xenomorph are Ancient.

I think maybe we need some more Clarification, well we need to FIND-OUT what becomes of David and the Covenant and his Xenomorphs, even if this is a Movie were we arrive at a Aftermath to what happens when David ends up where ever he is going and in effect David becomes like Dr Shaw was... as in the Movie could have him as a Corpse, but Activate his head to get some Information.   Then have us see his Xenomorphs in ACTION.

Then we either see the Movie End where we DONT see his Xenomorphs end up on a Engineer Ship, where we DO see them on a Engineer Ship that leaves (But dont show where and what happens next) or where the Engineers Turn up with their own Xenomorphs.

As it stands now i feel here are they Main Things that Bug Fans regarding the Prequel Route...

1) David as the Creator of the Xenomorph, (Even if someone else Evolves his Creations) thus the Event is NOT Ancient and NOT Alien of Origin.

2) The Size of the Space Jockey, were 8ft Engineers just dont seem to fit the Bill, never mind any one Smaller.

3) If the Engineers are the Space Jockey... regardless of size, i feel a lot of Fans want something more ALIEN, but i think most can accept that we are not seeing a Skeleton of a Alien Race..

I think Fans May have to Accept that the Derelict/Space Jockey event is NOT Ancient, and that the Pilot is NOT some Skeletal remains of some Alien Organism.

But the Rest Can be FIXED...  (i.e 10ft Not So Human looking Race Above the Engineers take Davids Xenomorph and Evolve it... to their HUBRIS and end up as the Space Jockey).

In Hindsight though.... the Direction taken by AC should have not been taken.