Who Needs a Cooked Beast When You Have James Cameron?

I will meet you half way. I never saw Avatar except for a trailer and some bits playing on TVs at Best Buy back in the day and was not impressed. Your comments strengthen my resolve to never watch it. I have to respect the gobs of cash it raked in and how theaters built screens to accommodate it though.

PERSONALLY....

The Franchise is quite Fractured as far as peoples opinions, and a  lot of people may dislike Camerons ALIENS but then a lot of people like it.

"Ridley Scott dropped the ball by not following up on Alien in the 80s- Cameron seized the opportunity to progress"

Not quite true/fair..... Ridley Scott was busy and the reasons why a Ridley Scott ALIEN 2 are similar to why PROMETHEUS 2 never happened.... RS was busy, after ALIEN he had a number of Projects, just as at the time of working on a Prometheus sequel RS was then working on the Martian and Exodus Gods and Kings but also we need to look at FOX for being the main ones who change things.. ALIENS Ended up different to a degree than what RS had thought a sequel to ALIEN would have been, and indeed Alien Covenant to a degree is also different to what RS had intended for a Prometheus Sequel.

But to be fair to Cameron, he had to take what he was given as far as ALIEN and look mainly at the Theatrical Release, and to interpret how to expand upon this  based off what ALIEN showed us... and you cant really FAULT what he did considering that.... HE and FOX could have followed through on ELEMENTS that was not included for ALIEN that was intended or indeed from the STARBEAST Concept which ALIEN came from.

If you looked at ALIEN with No Knowledge of the other movies, then you could imagine ways to expand on this , but then Camerons ALIENS would kind of make sense. 

Looking alone at ALIEN you would not be aware of the concept and ideas that Starbeast had and so Camerons Queen Concept made sense... and the ALIENS Xenomorphs did display Intelligence...  you could argue that the Original ALIEN (minus deleted scenes) showed the Xenomorph to be less Intelligent to Camerons BUGS and basically just doing exactly what the Xenomorphs in Alien Covenant were doing... which is KILL KILL KILL.

"How come Newt's parents found it suitable to go check an alien spacecraft with children on-board in their kind of "urbane" colony vehicle?

You may say the scene didn't go on for the theatrical version, but Cameron shot it anyway - because Cameron is what he is."

Just a case of sometimes certain things have to be done to drive a Plot Home... if the Jordans never investigated and proper strict protocols were in place to check the Derelict out then the lesser chance of the Xenomorph Outbreak and THUS we get NO Hadleys Hope Outbreak and death of most of the Colonist. Which would mean NO ALIENS movie as far as what we got.

Regarding the Xenomorph Scare Factors/Cooked.  

It has been Cooked a bit, its been shown and done over and over, relegated to a Bio-Weapon, that can be killed by Humans and Predators with the right Technology..

The only way to make it Scarier is to introduce a Purpose and Agenda for the BEAST which may have required looking into some Concepts from STARBEAST.... but it seems they stood by with the Status Quo that the Xenomorph was a Created Bio-Weapon.

Which then leaves us with the Purpose and Agenda behind whoever would CREATE such a Bio-Weapon as being the way to expand on it, and introduce us to something more Fearful and this is the Purpose they chose behind Prometheus and Alien Covenant (despite changes to WHO and WHY it was created).

The Holocaust was a Horrific Part of History , but it is the REASONS behind such Actions that differ it from a number of other Genocides, and its the Reasons for Hitlers Actions that are more Horrific than his Actions themselves.

You may say the scene didn't go on for the theatrical version, but Cameron shot it anyway - because Cameron is what he is."

This is about the whole Hadley's Hope/Newt's family bit. That whole scene fleshed out the movie quite nicely. It was probably chopped for time constraints in the theater. The scene mentioning Amanda was chopped too and would have been a nice addition as well.

 Ridley Scott was busy and the reasons why aRidley Scott ALIEN 2 are similar to why PROMETHEUS 2 never happened...

I have to disagree and will not let Scott off the hook. Cameron had no shortage of demand at that time either and was busy. Scott had enough clout at the time to advance the franchise but chose to not do so. I like how the Quadrilogy played out.

Back to the OT- in hind sight, I think Scott cooked the beast if it has been cooked. He teased us at the end of Prometheus with the Deacon. AC was ok, but he may have done better to stick to his guns instead of saying "I'll give them fu^^ing Aliens". 

"RS came along way later and wanted to do prequels. He lamented on how nobody perused the SJ and went from there. "

I think that was what was they had plans for, and at first the Prequels would have had something that would have pleased the Fan Boys... RS had even way prior to the Prequels, he had concluded that in his opinion the Xenomorph was merely just a Biological Weapon that the Space Jockey Race used and Engineered.

The Problem is ONCE we go this route and do a movie that confirms HOW/WHEN the Xenomorph was Created and WHY it becomes difficult to then Proceed with other movies after revealing the Xenomorph is to the Engineers just as a Chemical Weapon is to Mankind.  (i am talking about at the time the Prequels were being conceptualized).

The other thing not answered in ALIEN and something that had never been show was the Space Jockey Race, and so this is when THEY had agreed that you maybe dont need to do a Movie that has the Xenomorph, for us to find out who the Space Jockey was and then also potentially what role the Xenomorph was to them.   A Movie like Alien Engineers if this was made, would have had Xenomorphs but then it would have lead expectation that a sequel would have to also follow the Xenomorphs, because just as Gavin had mentioned a movie that contains the ALIEN Prefix would have been expected to have the Xenomorph, and then a sequel would also have to have the Xenomorph if it was a ALIEN Prefix too... but if the sequel they dropped the Prefix, it could make some not make a connection that its a sequel to Alien Engineers.

The dropping of the Prefix for Prometheus was intended to allow them to show us a Movie thats connected to the Franchise, but would not be going to connect directly to the EVENTS of Alien.  Thus setting up the potential to explore the Engineers and Steer Away from that Cargo on the Derelict.

But again FOX had decided to change the Plans again...

We can see the Frustration from RS comments about "I'll give them fu^^ing Aliens".   we can see that he felt there was only so much you could do with the Xenomorph and indeed the REASONS for WHY someone would Create it are FAR more interesting to ponder.  But certainly the Ball was Dropped as far as WHO they decided would be responsible.  A Interesting Curve-ball... but one that i think has Proved to be a mistake...

I think when we look at what becomes of the Franchise, we have to remember that its the Production Company who call the shots....  IF we do get a Alien Covenant 2 and Disney want to have David NOT revealed as the Creator and to introduce HOW the Xenomorph Queen came to be. Then if RS wanted to play a part he would have to try and make compromises, or just say the Movie has to be done MY WAY or i wont play a part in its Production.... Disney could just then replace RS with another Director instead.

Anyway sorry for going OFF TOPIC...

The beast never been cooked. Ridley said that "the beast is cooked", but it's not a fact and not a truth (some people undoubtedly believed him). It's just the emotional words of disappointment man. We meet alien in 79 movie, we go into the hive in Aliens, we have another subspecies in Alien 3, we get mutants and hybrids in AR. And more alien creatures in Prometheus & Alien Covenant. Finally we saw the protomorph. The beast is not cooked and never will be.

"As I said the beast is cooked, but only so long as Fox recycle the creature. However, if the creature is evolved in some new, refreshing way that stays true to the core appeal of the franchise then the beast can become relevant and prominent again"

Indeed RS had indicated about this in some of his comments where he felt you could go a FEW MORE ROUNDS with the Xenomorph... but you have to Evolve it, he made a reference to that in one of his Interviews were he said the Franchise has to be about HIM, but you have to EVOLVE HIM... now this appeared to be about the Xenomorph, but it could have been about David but i feel that is unlikely and so he was referring to the Xenomorph.

REGARDING how we got Camerons ALIENS

Again i have to go back to that ALIEN in those days prior to Internet (Mainstream) and Smart Phones and so limited ways to communicate and get information..

Back then not every person who ever saw ALIEN would be aware of the Starbeast Draft/Plot or the Planned Separate Egg Silo and Temple.  And so what we was left with was the Derelict and the Egg Cargo and it was a case of where do we go from here...

Introducing the Hadleys Hope Colony Plot, helped to introduce us to the Potential Danger a Xenomorph Outbreak would cause, and then set up a Plot where we could connect with the Characters and Loss of the Colony, using NEWT as this Proxy.

Then we had to look at HOW to expand upon the Xenomorph, and they chose to NOT incorporate what they did-not from STARBEAST and they chose to not incorporate the Egg Morph from the DC Cut.  so then you would have to ASK.... how could those Eggs had came to be?

Then we have to consider most EGGS are laid by a Organism, which then means do we make a connection between Xenomorph and a Bird, Reptile, Amphibian and in doing so, we could look at how these Organisms go on to live a more solidarity Life Once Hatched and Grown to Adults.  This may suit the 1979 Xenomorph.  but Cameron wanted to introduce them as a Threat that could overrun a Colony and give us a Action Movie... and so introducing Multiple Xenomorphs who work together was the route taken.   And when looking at this kind of route then we could be led to this being a kind of Collective like a Bee Hive or Ant Colony.  and so going the route of the Eggs being more connected to the Insect Domain is what we got.   A Organism that would go on to Create Colonies/Hives like Termites and Ants is what they went for, as it shows the Threat the Xenomorphs pose when they overrun a world and follow a common Goal/Cause instead of acting Individually.    

So Logically it seemed Appropriate to have those Eggs come from being LAID.  The Starbeast/Alien DC method of Procreation of the Eggs was something different and interesting but it was something they passed upon.  And so a Egg Laying Species that would have a Queen that creates the Eggs and acts more like a Invasive Species is the route they went, as opposed to a Totally Parasitic Organism.

When looking back, they could have consider other ways that Eggs could have been accounted for.  Even the David method of using a Technology/Substance/Method of Mixing/Engineering Traits for a Perfect Organism and then using Egg Cells to infect these Traits into them to produce the Eggs.  Could have been explored... 

This kind of a Plot would have required introducing the Space Jockey ideally as a Race who would carry out such Experiments, were they could then require Test Subjects to Create their Xenomorph Eggs from.... and so introduce a Plot of a Race that would go around and Capture Humanoid or Suitable Organisms to USE their Egg Cells as the Basis to Evolve them into Xenomorph Eggs.  Maybe this kind of a Plot could have been better for a ALIEN sequel.

But then its a bit complicated, and a Egg Laying Queen Organism is a more simplified route..... but then so would have been using the Egg Morph route... a Simple Method that also would have introduced something Sinister about the Procreation... and to a degree followed STARBEAST only not as in how Civilized the Xenomorph could have become.

I think thats what BUGS a lot of ALIEN fans was the Potential to have the Xenomorph as a more Social Organism with Intent and Menace, rather than being a Organism that just Procreates on Pure Survival Instincts like a Ant Colony.  But there was not much in ALIEN or even ALIEN DC that would show us the Xenomorph was 100% a Intelligent Species like Starbeast had indicated. 

There was plans for this... but scenes never got shot... if ALIEN ended as RS had planed at One Point (Xenomorph Kills Ripley and then Impersonates he Voice to Lure in a Rescue Mission) then a ALIEN 2 would have gone a different route, to the BUGS.

But we have to accept what we got.... another thing to consider is back at the time of ALIEN Ridley Scott had looked at and wanted the Xenomorph to have elements of a Reptile and Insect i its Genetic Make up.  And so the Insect Influence was there in RS mind before Cameron and his Aliens came along.

" The beast is not cooked and never will be."

I think its more a case of personal opinion, the beast is cooked to some, and not to others.  The Problem is the Formula they used in the Franchise as far as the Camerons Egg Laid Xenomorphs...  really becomes tricky to introduce the same type of PLOT/THREAT over and over before it could become Repetitive.

But some fans would not mind a ALIENS 3, ALIENS 4, ALIENS 5 etc.... Run, Hide, Shoot and get killed.  i think there is only so much of that you can do On Screen.

I think you need something fresh, and maybe Evolve the Plot and Organism....  But its hard to do because a ALIEN movie had put all its EGGS into One Basket in that any ALIEN movie (Prefix) would have to be about the Xenomorph in some form.  Evolve the Xenomorph to something that is distant to the Original and some fans would just not be happy or see a connection (Deacon, Neomorph) for example...

If Alien Covenant did-not show David Created the Xenomorph, but he experimented on the Engineers Xenomorph to Create Neomorphs.... and then Alien Awakening was a movie about Neomorph like Organisms.

Some fans would feel this is not a ALIEN movie without some kind of Egg/Face Huger Stage.  I think if they went for this PLOT in Alien Covenant they could have explored in sequels that the Neomorph Organism could infect a Host so that it either Egg Morphed, or the Hosts Body would decompose a bit and form a Organic Mass that similar looking Spore Pods would Grow from..

Thus Propagating the Procreation of the Organism.  But for some fans they would Lament for the Xenomorph and Queen.

But we have to accept what we got.... another thing to consider is back at the time of ALIEN Ridley Scott had looked at and wanted the Xenomorph to have elements of a Reptile and Insect i its Genetic Make up.  And so the Insect Influence was there in RS mind before Cameron and his Aliens came along.

You don't understand. Please, let me explain about bugs. This is not about genes, behaviors, abilities, forms or another stuff. No. People call Cameron's aliens "bugs" because they weak. Bugs are weak. And Cameron's aliens weak. So, they are bugs. nothing more.

Bugs can be very Dangerous...

If we looked at something similar to "It Came from the Desert" should some accident or experiment lead to Tens of Thousands of  Giant Horse Sized Ants, these would potentially be a Massive Threat to the Eco System.

IF Such a thing happened Hundreds of Years ago, then its possible that Mankind on the infected Continent/Island would be overran and wiped out by Giant Ants.

So Camerons Aliens are Dangerous... the 1979 Xenomorph would be less Dangerous IMO if they decided to go for the Egg Morph Procreation...   by Dangerous i mean as in Mass Egg Production is more efficient.

But i do think the BUGS route, is something that reduces the Xenomorph from being interesting and sinister.

A Movie about AI that Mass Produces Killing Machines like Robocop ED-209 or even like the Chappie Plot as far as the MOOSE Robot would offer a Killing Machine thats more of a threat than Androids like David, or even the Terminator T-800's but they would just not be as interesting.

Why i feel the route the Xenomorph had taken, by being just a Bio-Weapon that can Procreate via a Queen, has limited scope, as there is only so much you can do with this route.

So what i am saying is WHILE we have ALIENS that gave us something interesting and a Good Action Movie... the revelations about the Xenomorph does not make them Sinister.   Thus it becomes the Motives behind who would Create such a Organism or intend to use it for a purpose becomes the more Sinister Plot.

Because alone... there is IMO only so much you can do with the Xenomorph as far as those Eggs, and introducing a Queen is the method of their creation. Unless the Xenomorph is shown to have a more Civilized Purpose and Agenda and become a Alien Species that has more than a Agenda to merely Procreate.

so what i am saying LETO is that i agree with your first reply in this Topic, in that the beast can have more LIFE if they Evolve it or introduce more of a Agenda for the Species, than merely having ONE Natural Instinct... Procreate.

BigDave, hi!

You quoted me on,

"How come Newt's parents found it suitable to go check an alien spacecraft with children on-board in their kind of "urbane" colony vehicle?

You may say the scene didn't go on for the theatrical version, but Cameron shot it anyway - because Cameron is what he is."

And I actually said that, because the main critiscism about "Prometheus" and "Covenant" has been "stupid characters" and/or "stupid characters acting on a blessed stupidity-proof franchise" over a specific film ("Aliens") that was conceived (someone else's opinion, not mine) "to be a pefect reflection of the SMART BADASSES EVER!"

Let me be clear about something on my reasons and opinion: CAMERON SUCKS AS A DIRECTOR, block -buster box office results apart and "Aliens" apart.

I would never have given Cameron a second thought had he not messed with "Alien" in the 80's and had he kept his mouth shut when talking about Sir Ridley Scott's works on the original concept of "Alien" - "Prometheus" and "Covenant" - not so long ago.

Cameron, "powerful" as he had been before (because of "Terminator") and he may be now (because of "Titanic" and "Avatar"), does not know when not to talk, both in filmaking as in being the third person on a successful realtionship (Sir RS + "Alien").

I came to this site years ago because of and only because of "Prometheus" - and my song remains the same :)

And, Leto, thanks!

In your way, you said it all.

Cameron's Marines called the Alien "just another bug", as if the universe was plenty of them - not something the original crew's reaction on "Alien" would suggest.

In this sense, I do prefer the bugs on "Men in Black" - block-bustering speaking...

And a final (for now) thought:

What about the "baby" alien back-busting/mouth-busting in "Covenant"?

Was it not something?

Indeed totally agree on Stupid Choices....  people have to make them to drive a Plot Along....

In ALIEN letting the Xenomorph on board was Extremely Stupid only Ripley Seemed to be aware of the Potential Risk, much like Vickers in Prometheus.

Stupid ASH!!!!  But then thats when the Twist came in about the Android and Special Order 937 which i think was a Master Stroke as far as a viable way to do something rather silly.... revealing that Agenda and the Crew were Expendable was one of the Best Plot points in ALIEN.

I think ALIENS has its good points, it a Top Top Action Flick, not many Flaws, i would say Alien has as many Flaws (which is a small number).

But for some the route of ALIENS had not taken into account the Back Plot from Starbeast i have heard Alien Fans say the Xenomorph was made to be Weak in Aliens and Stupid.... i argue against that because in ALIEN all the Xenomorph did was go around killing people, it uses Stealth and was a Great Hunter but did not come across as a Super Intelligent Species.  Also the Alien Crew were not trained for Military or had access to Marines Weapons and even if they did, they knew the risk of killing the Xenomorph would be risky for the potential of a Hull Breach (Acid Blood Master Stroke Plot).

If the the Xenomorph killed Ripley, and then landed on Earth say, and got out, then a Military Contingent in a open spaced Environment Armed to the Teeth would make Short Work of the Xenomorph...  surely it was not as indestructible as the T-1000 Terminator.

Camerons Aliens were torn to Shreds a little to Easy though, the same for AVP movies and Alien Resurrection.  They did show Intelligence However.. more so than the Xenomorph in ALIEN.

I think what BUGS a lot of those who liked Alien Concepts, and thought it was a missed opportunity are based on the more ALIEN Nature and concepts that was dropped for ALIEN as some of these would have given a different outlook to the Xenomorph and would have made a sequel going the BUGS route become something contradicting. 

We have to accept the BUGS.... it makes sense to a extent...

What they should have done is use Alien Covenant to EVOLVE the Beast....  David Creating the Xenomorph has upset many, RS feels its a good idea as it shows how Dangerous it was to Create a AI like David and take him on  a Journey to meet our Makers... and discover the Bio-Weapons the Engineers had created.  And he then uses this to Create the Xenomorph.

Instead having David Create his own Version, that is more Evolved, and potentially can become more closer to the Star Beast would have been a much better route to take. This fits with RS idea of the Danger David posses by him creating a Horrific Bio-Weapon... it would show that Mankinds Creation had Created a more Perfect Creation than Mankind and Engineers ever could.

But some Fans wanted to see how the Original Xenomorph came to be and the Space Jockey/Derelict explained... which means a Spoon Fed... Plot that has to Literally connect to ALIEN, which means Davids Xenomorph would have to thus become the Cargo on the Derelict.

We can all wonder what would happened if the Egg Morph was in the Theatrical Movie... and if they introduced a Xenomorph that would Imitate a Humans Voice.... and could lead to us to the Beast being more like the Starbeast Plot.

We would have not got Camerons ALIEN BUGS then!

But those kinds of plans that never went ahead for the Xenomorph could be used in another Organism or Race, or as a Evolved Xenomorph be that Naturally or via Experiments.

"

What about the "baby" alien back-busting/mouth-busting in "Covenant"?

Was it not something?"

And not forget the other Experiments by David that we only had mere glimpses of.... so indeed they tried to bring in something NEW but it just never had the Screen Time they deserved.

Ridley Scott claimed the Xenomorph would have Regenerated, i am sure some ALIEN fans who saw the Xenomorph as a Unstoppable Force

But its a bit of a silly comment... how does this work?  Cut off a Xenomorphs Arms and TWO Xenomorphs will grow from this?  We saw Rapid Regeneration with the Hammerpedes and Ripley 8 and so it maybe cant be ruled out.

Certainly contradicts ALIENS a bit, depends on how fast this Regeneration is..

I think a interesting way to explore Regeneration would be a Xenomorph has limited Life Span (ideal for a Weapon) and when it Natural Dies or is Killed, its remains will degrade but go into some active Chemical/Biological Process were from its Remains, these Melt down to produce a Mass on the Floor which Grows a Egg, or Few.

Even having the Neomorph do the same, (from its dead body, will sprout a number of Spores) i feel is a interesting idea to explore.

Shame we never got to have the Screen time the Beasts had, that they deserved.

ScorpioStar: Effects-wise the mouth-burster looked good but since I did not have any connection to the character I did not feel a lot but I can tell you that I would feel very stressed if I would be in a situation like that. Most of the names of the characters in AC I do not remember the names of because they were in the background and were not well developed. The amount of gore and how they put that together is nothing that I have a problem with.

As far as the characters I think that they are better done/acted in Aliens than in the prequels. Their deaths certainly affected me more, for example Vasques which I thought was a more interesting character compared to Ripley anyways.

“Cameron cooked the beast and his fans not only can't take it as they hate Sir Ridley Scott's attemps to renew it. Thus the controversial box office.”

That is not why I am not a huge fan of the prequels and I am not a huge Cameron fan per se even though Titanic was alright, and also Avatar. Terminator 1 and 2 are also good even though I have not watched them since forever. Aliens is OK even though I do not watch it that often. Maybe he didn’t cook it but he made it more relatable by making it like a hive insect. Renew the Xeno is not why I am not a fan of the prequels, my reason is that they lack (both movies) human characters to believe in and that it is centered on a robot that has gone bonkers and that it is all about him. Aliens is better even though it is an older movie.