ALIEN: Back to the Future Part 2

"Covenant" means a contract, a deal. A deal between WY and David. Of course"

I always thought the COVENANT in the Title was Interesting but could have Multiple Meanings. I think that YES we could look at ONE such Connection within the ADVENT MESSAGE.  

Down the LINE would David and the Company go and ENTER into a Agreement?  We have to WONDER to WHY he would SEND the Advent Message, i think Especially if his AGENDA would be that he HATES MANKIND.

But as he has his OWN Plans for Origae-6 then maybe him giving the Company some Information is a BAIT to get them to INVEST in going to LV-223 and Planet 4 instead of going to INTERCEPT the Covenant Ship.

So it GIVES our David more Time....  and he knows that Mankind could suffer PITFALLS in trying to Obtain anything from Planet 4 and LV-223 as both Places have DEATH!

"After all, a slave with the illusion of free will is the best tool"

Certainly would ;)

As i have said we cant RULE OUT such a Plot that David may think he has FREE-WILL but the Company have a RESET/CONTROL Protocol that he is Unaware of.

But i think it DEPENDS on WHO has this Programing, who is the Benefits... Weylands only Concerns seemed to be to EXTEND his LIFE... and HAD the Engineers been WILLING to do this, maybe he would be Interested in their Technology but this would be something the Engineers would surely NOT be willing to allow.

Vickers just seemed to WANT to get back Home to RUN the Company and Build Better Worlds...  i am NOT sure she would have been interested in the Bio-Weapons of the Engineers...  but Certainly others who would INHERIT the Company could BE...

However i would say that YES if she Survived and got back HOME she could likely be Interested in some of their Technology that would allow for Better Terra-forming of Worlds and Travel to Distant Worlds.

@BlackAnt

Your point that David was created to serve is a crucial one in studying the notion of A. I. within a science fiction pretext. 

What makes David unique within the story is he is able to replicate cognitive human experiences in order to make humans feel more at ease. 

However, and this is a point that Michael makes in describing playing him, so has acting authorial intent, by having the capacity to programme in cognition when do those Cognitions bleed into real feelings and begin to affect his behaviour. Again for guidance for us, another point that Michael made is Elizabeth is faith but David is knowledge. 

When I wrote the first part of my book which covers the events of the 24th to the 26th December the first thing I changed was made the story knowing and David as a rational robot driven by logic whilst he is taught to serve and will, he is capable of judgement and offers his thoughts to the reader on the nature of the mission. 

There is a scene much later on when he is stood studying the charred remains of Dr Holloway and telling the reader what was happening to Charlie but again he offers insights on the nature of where the mission has reached and technically felt uncomfortable with the direction it was taking. 

He does lead Weyland to his death knowing precisely what the ship represented so he knowingly does wrong in the guise of  service. 

However, two things happen to David which change everything and show he is changing. 

1) He says "don't all of us want our parents dead?" Elizabeth immediately realises something is very wrong because he knows she misses them and in a very profound and regretful way having acquainted himself with her psyche. He is expressing his view of his father and projecting it on to everyone else a humanising of his cognitions. Indeed earlier in his contretemps with Vickers his "sister" she makes it clear that she knows he is no longer merely serving and is offering his own version of the facts which is true. She saves her humanity by going in and tells her father the truth "if you go down there your going to die." That is the beginning in my story of a redemptive arc for Vickers and the gaining of insight quite different from running endlessly under a bus.

2) The second almost fatal error David makes is he smugly stands before the Navigator and asks him to provide his father with more life. The consequence of that is in human terms he "dies" Like Father like son, both hubristic he joins with Weyland. A rational human being aware of all the facts would have done better than that but he is so hell-bent on his father's destruction he loses himself, his cognition and feelings are his undoing.

So these are life/death changing outcomes. 

In Part 11 of my book, we find Elizabeth toiling over his torso and head "healing him."

They discuss the nature of what has gone on and David admits to her that being programmed to serve if he was given an instruction which would lead to misfortune he would still pursue the action.

This is the moment on which the entire story turns. Deep down Elizabeth knows that David is responsible for Charlie's death and the consequences to her. However, driven by two quite separate emotions hubris to get her answers and forgiveness for his actions she heals him and also sets him free and he accepts that freedom. David humbled reborn is now free of Weyland free to do what he judges is in the best interest of all the facts. He is now pure knowledge on a journey to find the soul. He was born into Paradise Lost and he now is on a journey to Paradise Regained.

Much later in the story the Personalities he meets offer him life without seeking his consent but there is an intervention and they are prevented from doing so but slowly but surely using that freedom from service he finds the truth "Is not minding it hurts."

So service is a very important part of David's programme which is rich pickings for the story. To be reborn without it burned into him is his first step toward not just knowledge but understanding and wisdom. 

In Alien: Covenant he is reborn as a sexualised repressed "Man" who stoops very low to become creative and at some point begins to malfunction and as he explains to Walter to plan the destruction of mankind. That to me is the ultimate expression of the Paranoid World View, as Damon expresses it, that a child will always want to destroy its parent. That is the world of Paradise Lost.

It's interesting in the real world that the audience did not find that awful truth bleak enough worrying instead about it devaluing the Monster.   

Roger G:

Yeah whatever, he might be exaggerating. As long as we don't program them to become like that I guess that there's no problem. What I have a problem with is that he is hijacking the franchise to push his AI-agenda. My guess is that he's babbling on about it because he wants the next movie to focus on that so they think that it is worth to explore it. He can talk about it in newspapers or whatever but keep that away from the Alien-franchise otherwise you F up the movies.

Of course, there are Terminator and Blade Runner for A.I. themes. Leave the Alien for alien life forms and civilizations.

@Leto

I agree and we also have The Matrix too, However i think with RS he was trying to BLUR the Lines of WHAT is a Intelligent Creation.  We are Biological Machines, the Replicants are Biological Machines, the Synthetics are None-Organic and thus Synthetic Machines.

I think that RS was NOT trying to take us down a Path of Crazy Robots, but to Continue with the Theme of Sub-Creating a Intelligent Life Form that then becomes Sentient.

He had mentioned about what Constitutes A.I in his Opinion, and its a case of a Mix Up between what is Artificially Created and Artificial Intelligence as in a Computer System that can Closely Mimic a Brain.

He Claimed that the NEXT Movie (AC Sequel) would be about A.I and what KIND of World it is that David would Create/Build.  which maybe go some Fans thinking he will go and either Build a Army of Synthetics... or Xenomorphs... but he said the Movie would NOT be about Xenomorphs.  It will be about Creation.

Now he also said in Context to A.I that he Felt the Replicants where A.I and so when he talks about A.I he is NOT really confine that to MACHINES.

These Comments did lean me towards Suspecting that David would take those Embryo's and Artificially Evolve them into a Improved Humanoid Species.

I also Suspect that HAD he been allowed to Continue then the LV-223 Engineers would have been Revealed to be more like David, a Engineered Sub-Creation.... so they would be more like Engineer Replicants.

"Leave the Alien for alien life forms and civilizations."

Which i think should have been the way to had EXPANDED/EXPLORED the Franchise, essentially the Main Focus seemed to be on Creation.... but with AC the Focus had NOW turned to PURELY about WHAT it is that David would Create, rather than us going on to Discover what else the Engineers had Created.

But what we have NOW is something that MOST would NOT have Expected when the Announcement was made about a Prequel.

If say the Prequels had Continued and Concluded... and then someone CAME from the FUTURE to say 2011 to Talk about the Prequels... here is what may had been said!

"So you have seen the ALIEN Prequels?"

"Yeah there is 4 of them"

"what are they about?"

"Basically the Space Jockey are 8ft Race of Bald Humanoids who Created us, and are WHO we thought were Gods"

"Oh is there NO Xenomorphs, do we know how the Eggs got on the Derelict"

"Yeah in the 2nd Movie, we get the Xenomorph and well, Basically the Prequels are about Weyland Founder wanting to go to Find our Creators for more Life.  However he gets killed by a Engineer (Space Jockey) we find out these Guys Created us, but then they decided to KILL us with a Bio-Weapon that can Create Monsters but they suffer a Outbreak and the Bio-Weapon killed all but ONE off 2000 years ago"

"Thats the 2nd Movie?"

"No the First, but in the 2nd we have a Single Human Survivor and a Android and they go OFF to the Homeworld of the Space Jockey and Basiclally the ROBOT goes and Kills them and Experiments on them and the Female Survivor to Create the Xenomorph"

"Really thats Lame"

"Yeah i will cut to the Chase, basically the Prequels are about a Android called David who becomes Sentient and displeased with his Creators, and wants to PLAY GOD and Create his OWN Creations, one is the Xenomorph his WOLF and the other are a Humanoid Species his LAMB and well in the END the Space Jockey Race turn up and Battle with the Robots Humanoids and WIN and then TAKE the Xenomorph Eggs to Study but the PILOT gets Face Hugged"

"So its mostly about the Space Jockey?"

"The Engineers they are called... Nah not too much more about a Robot who has a God Complex who wants to Play Dr Frankenstein using the Engineers Creation Tools and Secrets, who wishes to Create his OWN kind of Civilization and Xenomorphs to use to Destroy  Mankind and the Space Jockey Race"

"Is there lots of Xenomorphs?"

"In the 4th/Final Movie mainly, but its Mostly about Creation and Layers of Creation and showing that our Creation the Androids well ONE of them wants to be his OWN Creator and he KILLS the Space Jockeys (Most of them) with this Bio-weapon Goo that can Create Monsters and then more with Xenomorphs he Creates with the USE of this Substance/Pathogen"

"Oh that does-not sound like what i expected"

==========

So thats just a Rough Example... thats NOT to say the above is the Correct Ending etc we got, but its to SHOW that the Emphasis is on WHAT it is that David wants to go and do....   so IF we knew back in 2012 that the Prequels would be about a Synthetic who goes AWOL and Creates the Xenomorph, then i think a LOT of Fans would NOT have expected a Movie Franchise about Discovering WHO the Space Jockey was and maybe HOW the Eggs got on that Ship.

So YES the Emphasis on ANDROIDS is kind of a Distraction, to what WHAT i think most of us would Consider ALIEN.

I will add that prior to 2015 then it seemed we would have had a Movie that would have included Dr Shaw more, but i still think the David Creator Arc would have came to LIGHT, but i also think we would have SEEN and Discovered more about the Engineers and WHO Created them and WHY

In other words: we'd better get another director for the next film. Fresh blood - fresh solutions.

Especially since Ridley has already implemented his ideas in RbW. It would be very boring if he returned to the Alien and repeated them again. I think he should pass the franchise to new talents.

I cant see any Continuation with the Prequels....

To much Emphasis was on BELOW our Species in regards to Creation (AKA David) and WHAT he would Create, instead of looking at WHAT ELSE the Engineers Created and WHO had Created them.

It really is TRICKY on HOW you Movie Forwards in Terms of the Prequels.  I Suspect that in 10-20 Years we would get a REBOOT of the LOT (Maybe Alien will remain though?)

@BD, Leto, Roger G, and Thought_Dreams,

Are we all being too critical with RS?

I mean we all started this entire journey with Ash and the construct that the Alien is a product of very advanced hybrid Nano AI and biological something or other.

In the end it all boils down to this Alien and how we are all going to make this journey into the engineer world...I think David's story is interesting; but, the larger story of Alien should not be told through David.

I just want fresh ideas, new worlds, and to see more about the Engineers in general.

Absolutely i think the Problems had arose when they had CONCLUDED the Following:

*So the Emphasis should be about Creation and the Will to Create.

*So we are going to CHANGE this to introduce the Xenomorph Origins and Bring them back.

*So it seems Dr Shaw did-not go down to well with the Audience so we NEED to introduce more Human Characters.

What then Happens is you have to SHOW-HORN in a Plot to make where David and Dr Shaw had gone to be CLOSER to Home.

To then think the THEME of Creation as far as Creating a Superior Sub-Creation who CANT go and Create for himself in the Biological Sense, then see this Creation (David) become the Center-point to THEMES of Creation, Rebellion and to Introduce the Xenomorph as his Masterpiece had meant that a LOT had to be Sacrificed to ALLOW for this PLOT and INTRODUCE us to more Humans.

I think the Frustration on ONE PART is there was a LOT of Questions and Wondering about the Engineers that we would have liked to had been Answered by the Engineers to Dr Shaw and David and NOT merely Narrated in Small Detail by David.

Some Fans also would have WANTED to know more about LV-223 the Black Goo, and WHY they Created the Horrors and what other Horrors can this STUFF DO... and again we ONLY get a Little about this via David.

We did also get the NEOMORPH...

Then the Curve-ball was thrown at us about David being Indicated as the Creator of the Xenomorph... THIS was a Mistake as he could have CREATED something similar but Different to FIT within his Creation Arc, and from HOW he had Created this we could get more Indication of the GOO and its Connection to the Xenomorph and have CLUES to maybe HOW the Engineers had Created or Encountered the Original.

Some Fans may have seen the Potential with Dr Shaw and that we should have Continued with HER and see what the Discoveries, Revelations and Answers do as far as EFFECT her.

So when we go BACK TO THE FUTURE and we have that Hijacked Engineer Ship thats about to END UP on where our Engineers come from.... we then FACE some Problems.

*WHAT kind of Engineers do Inhabit this World.

*HOW many of them Remain?

*WHAT would be their Reaction to a Human and Sub-Created Synthetic turning up?

PLUS... then its CAN a Movie work with just ONE Human, a Synthetic and some Engineers or other Related Species?

Do you NEED more Humans and HOW  do you Introduce them?

So its QUITE a Tough Task....

The Covenant Plot had made it Simple... but it DID-SO by having to Sacrifice the Engineers and Dr Shaw.

One BIG Error was to have David go and Create the Xenomorph instead of something ELSE.

The other was that the OTHER Characters all seemed 2nd Fiddle to David/Walter.

BlackAnt: That's a possibility but what he says doesn't seem too interesting. It might be that he isn't too good at explaining what he wants but right now it 's too much about David. When he goes on about AI my conclusion is that he's mostly interested in David, at least that’s what it looked like in AC. You mention Ash and he was an important part but it wasn't about him, but the prequels are too much about David.

“I just want fresh ideas, new worlds, and to see more about the Engineers in general.”

Agreed, more Engineers would be interesting. Not sure what the new ideas would be but I don't want to see more about David. He was interesting in Prometheus but after AC I got to say that I 'm done with him.

"When he goes on about AI my conclusion is that he's mostly interested in David"

To a degree it is a LOT to do with David but i think he would have Explored more about Artificial Creation which i think he gets Confused when he refers to it as A.I as in its Artificial but Intelligent and so in that Context then the Apes in the Latest Incarnation of The Planet of the Apes Franchise would also be considered a A.I as far as HOW it seems RS looks at A.I and so thats as in those APES had became Intelligent via Artificial Means.

And so in that Context then a LOT of the Creation within the Franchise could be via ARTIFICIAL MEANS and NOT say Natural Evolution... the Plot seem to indicate we Did-Not Naturally Evolve from Apes... but the Engineers had Gave Evolution a Helping Hand with their Artificial A.I Goo.

I am drawn to the Continuation would have seen David go and Evolve/Manipulate those Human Embyro's but i could be WRONG.

I am NOT sure the Creation Themes and Arc are what are Interesting the Fans, i am NOT sure a LOT of us would have thought any Prequel about the Space Jockey would have lead to just being about CREATION and then Destruction and that it would ANCHOR down to the Creation and Destruction a Synthetic could Create/Cause which ULTIMATELY would END UP being our Xenomorphs.

Which would leave the HUBRIS... that you DONT go and Sub-Create and if you Sub-Create something Intelligent and Sentient that can Rebel and then Create then your asking for TROUBLE!

But the MAIN PROBLEM is this Story Arc and Plot is being TOLD through the Perspective of David and WHAT he would Create, rather than from MORE of WHAT the Engineers had or WHO Created them and WHY.

I think if we had a CONCLUSION.... then this would be the POSTER ;)

BD

At this point I guess that Scott would use his ideas and make it into something similar. Hopefully someone at Disney stops him from doing another robot-fiasco because Covenant in general wasn't very good. The problem is that he isn't good at explaining his ideas. When he says something that sounds like goobelygook someone should have to ask him what he really means, and shouldn’t stop until they get an answer that they think is alright as far as an explanation goes. Just because he is a legendary director doesn’t mean that he shouldn’t be able to be questioned and be able to give us answers that are not vague. I don’t think that it is too much to ask for a clear explanation. This isn’t only directed (no pun intended) at Scott, it also goes for politicians, scientists, and so on.

“I am drawn to the Continuation would have seen David go and Evolve/Manipulate those Human Embyro's. . .”

The idea isn't bad but keep it for some other franchise. Let someone write a book about it but keep it away from being Alien-related at least as far as the evolution of the Xeno is concerned. Maybe an android could be used by Yutani if they would try to do super-soldiers by genetic manipulation in a spin-off (it could actually be interesting) but don’t have it in the creation of the Xeno.

“... it would ANCHOR down to the Creation and Destruction a Synthetic could Create/Cause which ULTIMATELY would END UP being our Xenomorphs.”

It sounds like bad fan-fiction to me to be honest. I would be fine if they would have the Engineers playing an important role in it, because that would be more alien. A robot made by mankind being responsible for one of the most famous monsters in movie-history could be compared to someone that makes a great painting and then throws compost at it because he feels like proving that creation can go in different ways. Doesn’t that sound a bit messed up to you? That is what Scott does he just makes the alien world messed up because of his boring android-ideas. What is worse is that these prequels were supposed to tie into the original movie but now it’s just a mess.

Unfortunately they got it all wrong, the Engineers seem interesting but David isn't because of Covenant. I like the look of the poster but what it implies is trash. A prequel that would end like that would be like if you were promised a good ice-cream but you only got the paper that surrounded it. They would piss off a lot of alien-fans if they did that. Hopefully they are smarter than that. Keep Ridley and his flute-obsessed android (at most a cameo) away from the story. I can understand the themes but the story is wrong. Scott can do the visuals but that’s that.

"keep it away from being Alien-related at least as far as the evolution of the Xeno is concerned"

I would assume that WHAT he will Create NEXT would NOT have been about the Xenomorphs, but the Creating of Hybrid Humanoids.

Maybe NOT as Elongated Head as these Concepts, but also maybe HIS so called Humanoids could have some kind of Hive Mind Communication or other Sensory Organs/Abilities like what appears to be WHAT he had achieved with Experiments on Engineer Babies/Embyro's

But i would assume them to LOOK more Human like First Image shared than like these from Davids Notes.

"Maybe an android could be used by Yutani if they would try to do super-soldiers by genetic manipulation in a spin-off"

This is a OPTION with a ALIEN V if they Continue after Alien Resurrection as their is GREAT POTENTIAL with Ripley 8 she is ESSENTIALLY the Perfect Solider.  Well the MOST Superior Human ;)

"Doesn’t that sound a bit messed up to you? That is what Scott does he just makes the alien world messed up because of his boring android-ideas."

I see how it PERFECTLY FITS within the Themes/Arc of the Prequels...... However IF we saw that he Created something Different and NOT the Xenomorph then it would have FITTED the STORY ARC just as PERFECT and KEPT the Xenomorph as Ancient!

"Unfortunately they got it all wrong"

I agree it seems that WAY....  i have said before the Potential Damage Limitation would be to have the Engineers come along and SEE what it is that DAVID had Created and then THE ENGINEERS go and EVOLVE IT to Perfect it to WHAT we got in ALIEN ;)

You would NOT even Need to have David in the Movie to do this.

BD: About humanoids, then maybe if you look at what he says about a kind world then that could've been the case. It doesn't have to be what they planned for the next one but it's a possibility. Creating hybrid humanoids maybe but it still gives him too much of a role and I’m not willing to sit through another David-movie. Sorry, but I don't care about what he does next. To me he is kind of dead, even though there might be people that think otherwise. He could have been better written and executed in Covenant but they made him worse compared to Promtheus.

Not sure what you mean when you say a hive-mind communication, can you clarify? Like a smarter version of zombies or the monsters in AR (the scene where they get free from the ice-mist thing)? I don't think that we can draw any conclusion from his experiments on the Engineer babies since we didn't see any of that. Why do you make that connection?

Super-soldiers and Alien V, it could be difficult since AR is such a disappointment. Keep it as a spin-off and besides it's time to try something new in this franchise. It depends on the writing and the execution of it.

“I see how it PERFECTLY FITS within the Themes/Arc of the Prequels...…”

You and your themes, ;) I don't really care about the themes if it's executed as being about a mad android and everything else isn't important. I'm not sure if a lot of people would care, I wouldn't. Thinking about how it would be on-screen makes me tired and bored. At least it's better because having David as the creator is just one of the things that AC did wrong.

“You would NOT even Need to have David in the Movie to do this.”

Hell yeah! Maybe we could get a decent alien-movie then. It isn't just about reducing the role of David, it's also about other things. What they were going with David and it being about him, they totally need to reconsider all of that because whatever one thinks of it objectively it hasn't worked just look at the box-office and subjectively it isn't exciting.

About humanoids, then maybe if you look at what he says about a kind world then that could've been the case. It doesn't have to be what they planned for the next one but it's a possibility. Creating hybrid humanoids maybe but it still gives him too much of a role and I’m not willing to sit through another David-movie.

1.Reduce the time of David or get rid of him totally
2.More about the Engineers, make them or someone above them the creator of the Xeno
3.More about the human characters, and they got to be written by someone that knows how to do that
4.Don't cut out character-moments for run-time

Those are the things that they need to do to make me even consider watching another alien-movie. Unfortunately the way that it seems to go at least when they made the prequels makes me feel done with Alien theatrically.

"Not sure what you mean when you say a hive-mind "

some of Davids Workshop Notes seem to show that he has been Experimenting and Trying to Perfect some kind of Extra Sensory Perception/Organs with his Experiments.

so i was thinking he could maybe look to take these and APPLY them to his Creations (on Origae-6), and maybe they would have Senses that we DONT and maybe they could Communicate in some kind of Telepathic Way or using some kind of other Sensory Way that could maybe give them some kind of HIVE MIND  (so they would be somewhat like the BORG from Star Trek) have like a Collective Consciousness.

"Unfortunately the way that it seems to go at least when they made the prequels makes me feel done with Alien theatrically"

I think a lot of People feel that way with the Prequels, i think thats WHY they are in a PICKLE as far as to CONTINUE with the Prequels, with Sticking Points being that the FANS will expect a Continuation to Conclude with the Answers to LV-426 but then to NOT be about that David was the Creator.

They will LIKELY want to see more of the Engineers/Space Jockey and indeed LESS about David etc....   While some Fans may wanted to Continue with his Story.

You SIMPLY cant Please Everyone... and to Continue and TRY and please the Majority is going to be TOUGH.

Why i think the Prequels will just EVENTUALLY just be Forgotten about.

The One Idea i proposed could GET AROUND not having to Follow David, by VIRTUE of the Engineers returning to Planet 4

Here is WHAT they Discover.

*The City and its Inhabitants are Destroyed, with the USE of the Bio-Weapon from LV-223.

*Proof that Human looking beings had taken a Engineer Juggernaught from LV-223.

*Skeletal/Rotting Remains of Human looking beings and a Preserved Corpse of One (Dr Shaw).

*The Remains of a Synthetic Human (Walter).

From these the Engineers would be able to Work Out that Humans had gone to LV-223 and then some also had Ended Up on Planet 4.   The Engineers would then have to DETERMINE from WHERE the Humans Came (Easy if the Earth is the only Place where Humans should be).

I think it would be Difficult for them to Discover where the Covenant and David are heading...

The Engineers would also come across the ROOM where we saw David had his Eggs... and so they would have NO REASON to Pursue him, apart from REVENGE and then its Finding Him.

I think they would certainly be Wanting to Destroy Earth and Humans, they would also want to SECURE LV-223.

They may be IMPRESSED with the Eggs that David has Left Behind, and so they could see the Potential in this Creation and CHOOSE to take it to LV-223 to Mass Produce and Evolve.

Which could LEAD US to the Space Jockey event.

You would just have to find a WAY to get Human Characters into the PLOT.

You then have a Movie that would bring back the Engineers, go back to LV-223 at some point, that will CONCLUDE with the Eggs and Derelict.  You completely BY-PASS having to go and Follow David...

Yet his Role is NOT going to be Discredited... he becomes the Middle Man, and WITHOUT the Engineers Experiments, Black Goo there would be NO EGGS that David had Created on Planet 4.

And so the Engineers are WHO had Started to WHAT become the Eggs that David had Created, but the Engineers would then be the ONES who go and EVOLVE and Mass Produce the Xenomorph we have in the Franchise.

So David did-not Create the Wheel, he kind of Reinvented it, and the Engineers take his Reinvention and PERFECT it to get those Eggs on the Derelict.

This is maybe a way to Conclude the Prequels without having to IGNORE the First Two or THROW them into the None-Canon Rejection Bin.