David Did Not Create the Xenomorph (Part 2)

Let's be honest here,

Each of us has our own beliefs as to whether or not David created the Xenomorph, and being the rabid fans we are can pull up multiple pieces of evidence to support our case. Yes, that is essentially the whole point of a debate, but in all honesty, we could do this forever; bouncing facts back and forth in support of or against Chli's opening post. The truth is there is no truth - the Alien franchise, is narratively and in terms of continuity a convoluted mess of mystery, inference, intent, contradiction, and ambiguity, that could with the next movie be taken in any direction; as Alien: Covenant proved.

I personally feel a bit way to debate this topic, rather than going round in circles with endless facts, would be to state our belief and the reason why we believe what we believe, not in terms of evidence but more in terms of what purpose it would serve the franchise.

For example, I prefer to believe that David did not create the Alien and that it was created by another party because to make David the creatures creator makes us the center of the universe in a franchise called "Alien".

For me, the alien has always carried with it three connotations...

#1 - One of the overwhelming dark, empty, remorseless nature of space.

#2 - One of the cycles of birth, death, rebirth, and creation.

#3 - And one of fear of the dark, the unknown and the unseen.

To me, David being the creator of the Alien negates the connotations #1 and #3, while taking the franchise away from Dan O'Bannon and H. R. Giger's vision.

Do not get me wrong, I am not a supporter of David being the creator of xenomorph. Until recently I believed that David only created his own variant of xenomorph by reverse engineering the Engineers xenomorph. So I accepted everything that backed up this theory. This was after Covenant, because after Prometheus I could not even imagine that David could play such a role.

It was only after I discovered the Giler script for Alien when I started to consider this possibility, because, as BigDave put it, "the Red Cylinder Draft is basically the ALIEN we got" save for the alien origin of the Pilot, derelict and the beast.

With the route taken by Covenant we kind of return to Giler script, where the beast is a bioweapon produced by the Company and the pilot is humanoid (still alien, though, but maybe it will be revealed that it belongs to an advanced ancient civilization that left the Earth millennia ago - I have a theory that the planet seeded at the beginning of Prometheus is planet 4, because of the sculptured heads on the mountains from planet 4).

So I don't try to argue or impose my theories, I just want to understand what is going on, so I share my thoughts here with you.

Under these circumstances they can tell us next that the derelict and the Space Jockey are not thousands of years old, but they look like that due to harsh environment from LV426.

I wonder now if this was the plan even from the time of Prometheus. Remember the discoid ship that brought the sacrificing Engineer and that was not seen afterwards? Could be a ship of an advanced civilization from Earth that was terraforming,  building better worlds, belonging to an ancient equivalent of Weyland-Yutani. Ridley Scott said is not necessarily the Earth that was seeded, it could be any planet. 

The Engineers are not Gods  The Engineers from planet 4 are the originals. The Engineers returned to Earth in our antiquity and tried to influence the ancient humans in the right direction. They pointed to the sky showing their new home, to LV223 said Prometheus, but planet 4 was not far away, so that could be accepted as a misunderstanding by our ancestors or as a defense strategy, if you come this far go to our military outpost so we can stop you - planet 4 is "camouflaged" and undetectable by future Earth scanners.  Ridley Scott wanted to tell another story using the Alien universe as a canvas.

"I always think about how often we attribute what has happened to either our invention or memory. A lot of ideas evolve from past histories, but when you look so far back, you wonder, Really? Is there really a connection there?” (Ridley Scott)

Answering to a question if Jesus Christ might have been "alien" Ridley Scott replied, explaining as well why they tried to wipe out the Earth:

"We definitely did, and then we thought it was a little too on the nose. But if you look at it as an “our children are misbehaving down there” scenario, there are moments where it looks like we’ve gone out of control, running around with armor and skirts, which of course would be the Roman Empire. And they were given a long run. A thousand years before their disintegration actually started to happen. And you can say, “Lets’ send down one more of our emissaries to see if he can stop it. Guess what? They crucified him. "

What do you think of this theory?

Are we alone in the universe?

Chli:

“I think Gavin has a good point when he says that the Alien Universe would shrink and become less frightening and less open if the Engineers engineered the xenomorph.“ (20190417)

What if they make the Engineers scary as F and let the Xeno be something that they found and developed from there? If that was well done and we do not get the whole explanation of how the Xeno came to be like only showing us A and D in a chain of A-B-C-D then it could work to me at least because then there is some mystery left but that no one should touch that so there is something to debate because that is some of the fun of it. This could be a possibility but you need good writers. What if we are given clues maybe less vague than they were in Prometheus and leave a lot of it untold? This is something that I can accept, more so than the idea of David creating it. I don’t think that this would contradict your idea of universes with different creatures and so on, I actually think that your suggestion of many systems seems interesting.

As far as the expanded universe is concerned I can not comment since I don’t really care about that. I am an Alien-movie guy not an alien-verse (things that are not movies) kind of person that likes to dig deep into things that are not about the movies.

“I don’t see the xenomorphs as intelligent enough to have an abstract agenda, more like ants.”

Maybe their goal is to reproduce and survive, as simple as that? I have don’t see them as overly intelligent life-forms although with some intelligence but perhaps that is scary enough.

BD:

“i have concerns if the Franchise Expands by giving us this Xenomorph that Spreads itself across the Galaxy, and in return we just diminish the Engineers and what the Prequels had opened up.”

I am not so sure if that would need to be the case though. You have often compared the Xeno to WMD’s, what if that is like an WMD that gets out of control or like a bacteria that has been grown for a purpose that spreads and infects things. This could be fitting in way and also it is something that a foreign life-form (Engineers?) have made that is not created by something that the humans created (androids), I would be more accepting to that compared to David being the creator of the monster.

As far as the Engineers are concerned right now it is more about David so if that would tear down the David creating it thing and make it more alien again then I am for it. It could spread to some places that would also be better because I think that there might be other places that the Engineers have seeded with life where it didn’t get right so they have used warfare on that also. Who is to say that earth is the only place? Maybe they have succeeded to keep those other worlds in check?

Sure it could be the way that you are concerned about but it doesn’t have to be the case though.

“I think to downgrade the Engineers/Space Jockey and to Emphasis the Franchise on Queens and Eggs is going to be a bit limiting...”

Yeah and I also wish that they would have covered the Engineers more but I would prefer it being about the Engineers and how they are related to the Xenos than about David. What you need I think is a better connection between those two, something that Prometheus failed to do no matter who is to blame for it. If we get a movie that is more about the Engineers and how the Xenos/monsters are connected to them fine but no more robot movies though.

Thoughts_Dreams

I am an Alien-movie guy not an alien-verse (things that are not movies) kind of person that likes to dig deep into things that are not about the movies.

However, I recommend you read the book "The Cold Forge". It's the masterpiece!

Leto: I have heard about it at a podcast (Perfect organism podcast) but I have not read it. I try to keep an open mind to things like that so thanks.

"Each of us has our own beliefs as to whether or not David created the Xenomorph"

Certainly and some of us are not quite giving our beliefs, but pointing out what seems to be indicated, i would say our beliefs for those who point out the potential that David created the Xenomorph is not our personal wish... i would say many of us are suspending our belief.. because what a BAD idea it was ;)

You continue with this... "because to make David the creatures creator makes us the center of the universe in a franchise called "Alien"."

Again i would say most would agree with this... the David Creates it, Leaves it for the Company to come along and Obtain it, combined with the Engineers/Engineers City on Planet 4, take the Franchise so FAR away from what was ALIEN about that WHOLE scene of the  Derelict and its Contents!

"I have a theory that the planet seeded at the beginning of Prometheus is planet 4, because of the sculptured heads on the mountains from planet 4"

Certainly.... but if i comment in this.. well my Keyboard would break ;)

I think Movies can Change... and the Plots are changed, then only Concrete stuff shown Chronologically cant really be changed... everything else is Fair Game.

So the Prequels by their Vague Nature is Ripe for the Pickings....

For instance...... HOW does the Sacrificial Scene 100% prove this is how Mankind was created? or that it was on Earth?    The Engineers are Genetic Gardeners, they do Predate us (we can assume) and their DNA is similar!

Planet 4 Engineers look different to Prometheus ones... slightly.  The Sacrificial Scene could have taken place on Planet 4 to Create those beings on Planet 4, and  Mankind then came from them..... 

Ridley Scott said those Planet 4 Engineers are the ORIGINALS.... so this means the LV-223 are NOT the Originals and the Planet 4 Engineers Predate them...

However... the Sacrificial Engineer looks more like the LV-223 Engineers than Planet 4, so does that mean the Planet 4 Engineers Predate the Sacrificial Engineer?

LV-223 Engineers are a match to us.... but then we could be a match to the Planet 4 Engineers too, there is NO reason that the Planet 4 Engineers are our Ancestors, somehow and that the Prometheus Engineers had Evolved or Upgraded themselves to become what they was... while still having same DNA they Augmented their Genomes.

There is NEVER given any Date for the Sacrificial Scene or Location as far as if you ONLY watch the Movie and IGNORE everything else....   So if we look at this, then the Scene does-not have to be Earth, it could be another Earth-like World, and it does-not have to be Hundreds/Tens Thousands of Years ago! (Yet Older)

We just see a Engineer (looks more like the LV-223 Engineers who are predated by the Planet 4 ones if we accept what RS said).  He consumes the Goo (if we accept Alien Covenants explanation well Davids).  His Body Breaks down, and then his DNA Falls Apart and turns Black and then Reforms... and NEW Life begins (we only see the Basic Cells).

Look at Davids Comments "sometimes to create one must first destroy" and the Murals/Frescos in a different light, and what we see the Black Goo do...

Then we could then consider the Sacrificial Scene was a Later Version Engineer who Sacrificed himself, with the Black Goo to Create Horrors related to the Substance.

We could then assume that the Engineers or some had came across or stolen the Black Goo or some other way they obtained it, and it was used to Create Such Horrors as we see in terms of Prometheus and Alien Covenant... but also they could have used it to UPGRADE themselves too.  Or they came across something they used the Goo on, to attempt to Evolve themselves, and this worked, but as a Off-Shoot one experiment Produces something Else and the Engineers are like WOW! and they Worship this, and they use the Goo/This as the Basis to Evolve Worlds because they Worshiped the Perfection they saw in this..

So this shows that by taking what we see ALONE in the Movies and Cherry Pick certain things as we choose and apply it to the Movies we can MUSTER up another Plot, that could then sound Plausible.

The Plot i mention would make more sense if those Prometheus Engineers are a Creation the Planet 4 Engineers made for a similar purpose that the Tyrell Corp had Produced Replicants...    Prometheus Engineers are Augmented with the use of Something, in Hindsight the Playing with FIRE had lead to the Horrors on LV-223 and Rebellion of those LV-223 Engineers... or just that the Horrors Created by Augmenting themselves too much.

We dont even have to have the Engineers Create those LV-223 beings, they could be shown that some Engineers had Augmented themselves, for a purpose, but then they became so obsessed with this that they took it to the NEXT stage and then become obsessed with that, and Worship it.

Depending what we use for our ideas, and wants, can alter what we get...  Its ONLY if you go by what say Ridley Scott says that we are then put on a Certain Track... but then RS ideas at one time, change to something else at another time too.

"What do you think of this theory?

Are we alone in the universe?"

Some interesting comments.... i will concentrate on this one above though....    We have Humans on Earth, and Engineers on Planet 4 who also had been to LV-223

I think the Scope was BEYOND that, there could be Hundreds, Thousands of Worlds the Engineers had explored, and also how many other Humanoids had they created?  Potential is HUGE... by Virtue of Engineer Ships having Maps on their Navigation Systems to other Galaxies.

"Who is to say that earth is the only place? Maybe they have succeeded to keep those other worlds in check?"

Another quote that fits with what i am saying... 

Lets look at GOD... he created Mankind, but he also unleashed a lot of WHOOP-ASS for when we have FAILED to keep in Check!   If GOD exists and he created the Earth so Easy.... then why would he just not go "you know what, i am done, i will Destroy the Earth to a Grains of Sand and just Create another Earth and Start Again"

But he had Saved Mankind via Noah during the Flood...

If we take that in context to the Engineers, and we assume they are the Gods, well our Creators, then they DID-NOT create us as Easy as GOD did....  a Lot of Time and Effort must have gone into our Creation...  

So when we start to miss behave and they send Emissaries and we still dont get back in Check!  Then WHY would they Destroy us... because its Knowledge that is WHY we are not kept in Check... The Free-Will of David is what makes him NOT in Check compared to Walter.

How do you keep in Check David Models?  Create New.. or just Replace the AI/Brain or Programing ;)

GOD chose Noah because he saw him as Righteous and Just, and that Noah would be as Adam was (before Adam was led astray by Eve, More to it than that but lets pass that) by that Noah would be Loyal to GOD and his Ways...

So Mankind was given a New Start, where we could then be taught via Noah the Will and Ways that GOD intended... (but we soon went back to our old ways).

My point?  It makes sense for the Engineers to take some Humans or Children to another Place to Raise again and hope this time they dont become Corrupt because every Child is Born Innocent, and they become what they do by how they are Raised and Knowledge they are given.

So it would make sense for the Engineers to take some of Mankind (Children) away to then allow for a NEW Eden on another place, rather than Destroy us all!  The Logical ONLY ways they would NOT do this would be.

They already had done it in the past and Populated Mankind on many Worlds.... prior to our FALL on Earth in the Eyes of the Engineers.

Mankind had came from another Place and the Earth was just ONE place we had been taken to. 

So yes the potential is there for Many Human Worlds, or Similar Races, and we could ponder that maybe some of them Kept in Check!

This is exactly what i was to cover in WHERE it was David and Dr Shaw end up... which was Many Thousands of Light Years from Earth... my ideas for my Prometheus 3 would had shown a World with Engineers and Humans in Harmony but the Arrival of Dr Shaw and David poses problems for the Engineers due to what the other Humans had NOT been told about us or the Engineers.

This kind of Plot, is not FAR off what Raised by Wolves could be about, the ideas i mentioned above fit that Plot, and potentially could be similar to "what kind of world" David would Create!  He Hated Mankind due to how we are, but if he could Evolve those Embryos he could have his own Humanity who will be KIND to him.

Such Plots are a Distraction to what most fans would want the Franchise to be about, but we had to consider Prometheus was to STEER away from ALIEN...

I think in context to the comments i had take from daliens and Thoughts_Dreams  then YES the potential for their being more than THREE Worlds known to the Engineers, and ONE world for Humans is GREAT..

Many Worlds, Many Races, include those above the Engineers, but also Many Horrors too.

Such Scope... that i feel Alien Covenant had SHRUNK and the Alien Franchise is limited, if its just about Eggs and Weyland-Yutani you have to expand beyond that Eventually and Prometheus was a Good Starting Point.

The problem with Ridley's words, quotes, interviews, revelations, explanations, etc... - they are not on the screen. Everything that said Ridley, is not on the screen. So, no matter how much you want it - his words are not part of a canon or a lore of Alien-verse.

Now, a very small number of people search and read all these interviews. And these interviews can give completely different conclusions than what is shown on the screen. Ridley's words is not an addons to lore of the prequels, but completely another plot. The great Red Herring - what is this? The film or the interview?

Imagine: who after 30 years will look for all these interviews? Can the film exist without these interviews? Can it be independent?

"Imagine: who after 30 years will look for all these interviews?"

If Ridley Scott will not complete the prequels and all these mysteries will remain unsolved, probably some rabid fans like us will find the interviews, looking for answers.

"The problem with Ridley's words, quotes, interviews, revelations, explanations, etc... - they are not on the screen"

I think when discussing the Franchise and Interpreting it, then everyone is ENTITLED to come to their own Conclusions and their is a LOT of Cherry Picking...  I am someone who looks at all Evidence and i dont really get sucked into anything that has NO base to base any theory on...  But the Franchise is so Ambiguous that allows for many theories,  and i have said it a lot of times that DEPENDING what we take as Clues/Evidence can lead you to different conclusions.

So i think when looking at DRAFTS while they may offer some insight, we maybe have to only CONSIDER what the Drafts have that have made it to the Movies...

When Considering the Concepts again we maybe should only CONSIDER those that made it into any Movies.  Maybe we could consider Concepts that are almost identical to what was used in a Movie but maybe only if they were made for the Particular movie the likeness appears in.

When we are looking at Deleted Scenes its then a case of do we only CONSIDER what we are shown in the Movie and Throw Out the Deleted Scenes....

Do we CONSIDER any Directors Cut's and what happens if the Differences allow for some Questions/Conflicts to be raised? or do we IGNORE any Directors Cut, even though they are as the Director had intended and NOT a Cut they had to be Restricted to for the Box Office?

Do we have to CONSIDER the Viral Videos and Marketing, and DVD Extras or which of these SHOULD only be Considered?

Do we have to IGNORE any comments or interviews by other Production and Writing Staff, if these offer explanations to certain things?

Do we have to CONSIDER or IGNORE any Official Novel for the Movies or should these be taken as more FACT and accept the extra depth that they add to the Story that the Movie is Restricted to show due to Running Time Restraints?

I would CONSIDER any expanded Novel and Comic as something we SHOULD NOT edge all our bets on as far as using as Definite Evidence.

Then we come down to the Director....  they are the ONE who is Responsible for taking the Draft Story, for taking the Concept Work, working with Production to then decide which parts of the Story and Concepts are shown Visually on Screen..  Its the Director who GIVES us what we SEE on Screen.   They are the ONE who is given Paint Brush, the Musical Instruments to then Create what we END-UP with on Screen what we get so to speak.

So they are the ONE who know how the Story is Intended to FOLD out for the Movie they are working on, they are the ONE who knows how Visually things should be,  The Cutting Room does change a lot... but then any Director Interviews will talk about what is INTENDED after such Process.

Each New Movie can Change things that was laid down prior, and Each New Director has INSIGHT to what these Changes are meant to be and HOW they effect the Franchise.

==================

Depending on which of the above you choose to CONSIDER or IGNORE will take you to a certain conclusions and even if different people used the same Clues, they could still interpret them differently..

Then we have what you mention LETO... what ONLY is shown on Screen...  so by that do we limit it ONLY to the Movies?   When say any ALIEN movie is shown on TV then we HAVE none of the other Material to consider, if someone has NEVER seen any ALIEN movie or aware of anything, then they see ALL the Movies... is it what they have seen that we ULTIMATELY have to ONLY consider?

In that case then YES they would be drawn to a certain Path, that changes with each movie, where even after they see the Movies 5, 10 times each... Provided they have NO knowledge of anything else but whats ONLY shown in the Movie then many such people would STILL conclude different things.

My next REPLY will be me attempting to look at it from that angle as if i have NEVER seen the Movies and NEVER use any other source of material apart from say the Movies even if i saw them 10 times...    What i will write will still NOT be accepted by some, what i will write will NOT match some my theories.

I can then change things by Cherry Picking other information that is NOT in the Movies... but i will stick with what we ONLY see in the Movies....  then i make some assumptions based purely on that.

BigDave

In literary terms, sticking only to the text is called “New Criticism” (it’s not new any longer, though). This was opposed to going outside the text (historical, biographical criticism etc) in order to gather information about the author, the time, ideas, references to other literature etc. The idea with “New Criticism” was to only interpret what we read and not go outside the work in order to find clues about how to interpret things in it.

If we should apply this to movies, say Alien: Covenant, then we can’t get any help about interpreting the dialogue between Sir Peter Weyland and David from history or interviews with Ridley Scott. We can’t apply notions from religion or philosophy (terms like “rebellion”, “sin”, “hubris”, “creation”, “god”, “devil”, “hell”, “good and evil”, “free will” etc, etc). We have, e.g., the statue of David, the painting “The Nativity”, the opera “Das Rheingold” etc.

Perhaps it’s better not to restrict ourselves and see everything that can enrich our experience and deepen our interpretations as something good? We can take on board what we like. It’s not science, after all. :)

"We can’t apply notions from religion or philosophy (terms like “rebellion”, “sin”, “hubris”, “creation”, “god”, “devil”, “hell”, “good and evil”, “free will” etc, etc)"

I dont mean to be Disrespectful here, but i dont agree.  Some of what you point yeah... but there are Religious Undertones to the Prequels, maybe we should not interpret them as such, but they are their to be interpreted.  Then if we take Rebellion again we see David had became Rebellious to Mankind, instead of Serving these are shown in the Movie, even as far as Dialog for example when David spoke to Walter.

Anything we see in the Movie can be interpreted, the Prologue is easy to interpret as Creation, if we just dont have any interpretations then we can apply this to all sorts in the Franchise.   The Mural for example... oh its just a Painting and thats it...  but by Virtue of it being their it can be interpreted by people in many ways... some may interpret it as the Xenomorph and they are Worshiped as Gods by the Engineers, the Mural is open to that interpretation for sure, if we are looking at ONLY what is shown in the Movies, this is just as people could interpret and see Religious, Philosophical Elements from the movie, even if we ONLY see what we are shown.  Some people maybe interpret things differently, i dont think we should look at the Movies like a  under 10 years old would and thus just see it in a simple way.

Forgive me if i am not totally understanding what you meant though...   My last reply was in regards to what LETO had said and i was pointing out the different things you could consider ASIDE from the actual Theatrical Movie, and then i was going to THROW them all out and give a interpretation if i IGNORED it all apart from what the The Movies Showed.

I had  a Emergency so i never got to reply... but i will make that reply next, it would be kind of proving the point that LETO was making ;)

Ok so when looking at the Franchise alone, and i am trying as hard as i can to not be influenced by anything but what we saw in the Movies, but then i will put my interpretations based on what i see ALONE.   I will also be looking ONLY at what applies to the Xenomorph Origins mainly... and things that are Relevant to who created the Xenomorph. So i can maybe IGNORE most the Franchise. (unless needed) also this would make a unnecessarily long reply.

ALIEN:

The impression gained from watching Alien Alone (My interpretation using no other information but shown). Was that the Nostromo was sent to LV-426 after being informed to check out the SOS Signal but the Company must have known about what was in store at least to some degree due to Special Order 937

I see the Xenomorph as a Organism that appeared to be carried under the Derelict, maybe as part of a Cargo. I see the Ship appeared to be Purposely Built for this Purpose due to the Blue Layer Myst and the Cargo Hold had a similar Aesthetic to the Ship.  I see the Xenomorph as being Bio-Mechanical but its not 100% clear to see the Aesthetic connection to the Ship/Pilot.

I would be unable to Conclude if the Space Jockey was either taking these Eggs for Study, or Taking them for another Purpose, they was on the ship for a Reason that the Movie does-not indicate clearly.  I could Gauge from the Movie that it was likely he got Infected by that Cargo of Eggs, i gathered that it looked like this may have caused the Pilot to had Crashed the Ship, or attempt to Land it. or attempt to Take Off but Failed... but i would be more pushed towards he had Crashed with the Cargo.  I got the impression the Pilot was aware that he was infected and had then Sent the SOS Message to WARN that he was infected and the Cargo was Comprised.

I got the Impression the Pilot was some Bio-Mechanical Being (this would be after more careful Study, ONE viewing could indicate a Skeleton) that connected and interfaced with the Ship via the Chair.

The Xenomorph is saw as this ALIEN that would Hunt Down its Prey in the Shadows and its intention was to Survive and Kill any threats to its Survival.  It showed some Intelligence but appeared to just be a Predator (not the Yautja LOL)

I got the impression the company had some, but limited knowledge of the Species, they knew of the Signal and that a Organism was their to be obtained... which they wanted to Study but with No 100% indication of WHY.

Conclusion:  Egg Origins a Mystery, some Cargo for Some Alien Race who was Transporting them but became infected by its Cargo, and Warned his Race what had happened before landing on LV-426.  The Event seems to be VERY old... Thousands of Years ago or much more.

ALIENS:

This movie would further reveal that those Eggs are likely Laid, but looking at the Blue Myst in Alien, then i would conclude that maybe the Eggs are obtained from being Laid by a Queen by the Space Jockey and taken to the Cargo Hold for a purpose of either to Study or as a Bio-Weapon (i would be more pushed to this when looking at the reason W-Y wanted it).

I would conclude the Company wanted the Organism for the Bio-Weapons Division (this is Spoon Fed) i would have had to WONDER why they left it so long from the Special Order 937, until Ripley had informed Burke about the Xenomorph which i would conclude has to me that ONLY a few were aware of the Xenomorph and for some reason they maybe never bothered to return, or maybe did-not know that the Derelict had so many Eggs and thought going back as not of interest.

I would notice the Xenomorph Hive appeared to have some Aesthetic to the Derelict Ship only slightly though, but maybe NOT be Coincidence.

Conclusion: The Xenomorph was likely used by the Space Jockey as a Bio-Weapon for some Unknown Conflict while the Eggs are Laid by a Queen, i was more drawn to the Xenomorph maybe being a Engineered Weapon. But there would be say 30% of Doubt that would allow me to wonder if the Space Jockey had Discovered the Organism and attempted to Re-Engineer it as a Weapon but also to somehow construct their Technology.

ALIEN 3 and ALIEN RESURRECTION

This Movies dont offer me any additional clues to the Egg Origins or Space Jockey Purpose, but only to Conclude more that the Companies had attempted to obtain the Xenomorph for Biological Warfare.

PROMETHEUS:

In context to the Xenomorph, the movie seemed to show me that the Engineers had been conducting Experiments either on the Xenomorph (or at least something related) to Create the Black Goo Weapon, or that the Black Goo was used to Create Organisms like the Xenomorph and maybe the other Complexes had been used for the similar but maybe different Variants.  (Sacrificial Cup on Altar ignored, and Egg Fresco)

The Engineers lost control of the Outpost with a Outbreak and the Engineers became infected by the Pathogen, i could not really be sure the Engineers had died by any other means but Exploded due to maybe similar to what happened to the Sacrificial Engineer, i would have been confused to WHY we never got NO Fifield Engineers as i found NO evidence of this.   I would have noticed the Chest Burst Cryo-Tubes after Multiple viewings or Study of the Movie, which would have drawn me to some Organism had Exploded from those Engineers, could it have chased the Engineers? i would have considered this, but then other Clues would have for me drawn me to conclude that the Outbreak was Viral, as i noticed the Engineer Suits appeared Hollow.. so i would have been drawn to them breaking down, and this Reaction Exploded from their Suits.

I would have been drawn to ponder if the Worms were Native or had came from the Engineers that had died, but i was more likely pushed to them being Native or existed on (or brought to)  the Surface

The Trilobite/Deacon had lead me to show that the Engineers had experimented with Organisms related to the Xenomorph and there was a connection, but nothing for me to 100% conclude what route.  Just they appeared connected.  I would be drawn to wonder if the Mural was a attempt to Engineer the Deacon and that the Black Goo Strain had Deacon DNA

The Sacrificial Engineer and Virtue of Dr Shaws findings (Star Maps) and DNA match indicated to me that the Engineers are connected and we was created from their DNA, likely via similar to the Sacrificial Scene, which then had drawn me to wonder if the Engineers at some point had Encountered something they then used their Creation Goo on to Create Various Bio-Weapons but also to Enhance themselves.

The Space Jockey and Engineers are connected or even the same, as i put differences down to OVERSIGHT but a 30% of me would ponder had the Engineers Re-Engineered their Technology from the Space Jockey, and Re-Engineered the Eggs to form their many Experiments and Black Goo.

I was part drawn to the Bio-Weapon being used to Destroy, but then part drawn to it being used to EVOLVE Mankind into something NEW. (more so the later)

Conclusion:  The Space Jockey Race and Engineers could be the same, or the Engineers used to Serve the Space Jockey Race and Re-Engineered their Technology and Eggs.  The Xenomorph on LV-426 was connected to LV-223 as either those Eggs would have been used to conduct those Experiments by using the Black Goo (or Sacrificial Goo)  on them and then Results were Weaponized into more Black Goo, or the Black Goo was used to Create the Xenomorphs either on Purpose or as a Accident.   Certainly that the Engineers had maybe created Various Variants of Xenomorph/Deacon like Monsters.   The Derelict likely either being the source for those Experiments, or its Cargo a result of those Experiments and thus on LV-426 for at least about 2000 years.

I could have gone on more with Prometheus as it was Vague and had more to cover than ALIEN or the Franchise had..  But regarding the Eggs/Derelict the above is a Summary of that.

AT THIS POINT..... only from what the Movies show and my honest interpretation if i threw out external material and sources.

In context to the Eggs, they had been on LV-426 for Thousands of Years.   They either predated those Experiments on LV-223 or they came because of those Experiments on LV-223.

NOT by David.

It is a bit more ambiguous also to Conclude if the Experiments were a Bio-Weapon, or used to Evolve Organisms to have traits from the Black Goo that are related to the Deacon/Xenomorph.   With my slightly pondering if they would be used to WIPE a World Clean, but i was more drawn to the World becoming a Place Inhabited/Overran by Xeno like Organisms.

I would have concluded the Space Jockey are the Engineers, or the Space Jockey Predate the  Engineers and maybe Engineers had Rebelled and Stole/Reverse Engineered their Technology.

I would be surprised that the Prometheus Mission could have missed the Derelict SOS, and so the SOS had not been activated yet... so  i would ponder does a Investigative Mission to LV-223 lead to that and Special Order 937.  Or David detected the Signal but somehow managed to keep the rest of the Crew from knowing, and then ask Weyland what to do about it... and who knows what Weyland would have said.   Or the Prometheus and Crew just NEVER encountered the SOS from LV-426... which we also have to ask WHY the Nostromo would not have detected Dr Shaw's... which is WHY at this point i would have been drawn to another Mission goes to LV-223 and turns off her signal but this could have been sent out ONCE and gone across the Galaxy and detected and this resulted in another Mission which is when they detected the Derelict Signal and Special Order 937 came about.

NOW on to...

ALIEN COVENANT

While some Aesthetic Changed from Prometheus, i saw their was some Connection to LV-223, the Engineers appeared to be different, this  would lead me to TWO conclusions... these are a Hybrid Human/Engineer Race or that the Prometheus/ LV-223 Engineers are Augmented versions either by Creation by those Planet 4 Engineers or that some had Evolved Themselves... this left a puzzle to the Sacrificial Engineer which would lead me to think this Scene was NOT our Creation, maybe it was the Creation of those LV-223 Engineers, or those Engineers Sacrificing themselves to Create Horrors related to the Deacon/Xeno/Neomorph.

Regarding the Eggs....  i would have been led to David having conducted experiments on Neomorph Spores and Black Goo to eventually Engineer those Eggs.

A part of me would have notices some conflicts.. such as the difference in the Xenomorph, especially the Chest Buster, and its Gestation Rate that indicate to me that those Xenomorphs are a more Superior Version as far as a Weapon.

Maybe the Classic Chest Buster would be Quicker and Increase Survival Chances, and so that would be a element to Engineer in Future, i would ponder does these Xenomorphs get Evolved to become more Bio-Mechanical and this will be shown in Future and maybe explain the differences in appearance and Gestation/Growth a bit?

I would be in a bit of Shock, Disappointment and Disbelieve what i was shown, i  would watch again and again to try and Clutch at Straws that David could not have created the Xenomorph.

At this point looking back at the other Movies... i would be looking at the Derelict looking like it SURELY had been there for a Long Time before Prometheus but also would be concerned this would be a Ridley Scott oversight.

I would look back at other movies and wonder could David had gone to LV-426 and got a Egg/Eggs, but then i would ask WHY he would Experiment with so many other Organisms...  But its something i could not rule out.. there would be the possibility that David had obtained a Egg from LV-426 or LV-223 and began to experiment with it and the Neomorph.

And maybe THUS David's Xenomorph was a Xenomorph and Neomorph Hybrid.

Conclusion:  David would have either Created the Xenomorph (proto-morph) from Experimenting with the Black Goo and Neomorph Spores and Tinkered with other Life-Forms.   Which we would then need to see his Xenomorphs gain more Bio-Mechanical look in future and in their Thousands (Colonist a Coincidence?) on a Engineer Ship at some point.

OR that David had experimented with a Egg (with only a assumption not fact from where he got it), and Neomorph, and other Organisms to create a Hybrid that he then used Dr Shaw's Eggs to Create in Number.

By Virtue of the Colonist in their Thousands, and this being a ALIEN: Prefix i would be more drawn to that Dreaded Conclusion that at PRESENT, David had been the Engineer of the Xenomorph :(

All of these CONCLUSIONS would not be taking into account anything that NEVER appeared away from the Movies.. So if i watched The Crossing this could help me to ponder something else...  like David gained Knowledge of the Xenomorph/Blue-Prints or could have gone to LV-426 to obtain a Specimen (unlikely)

But i made the last TWO posts based on ONLY considering what the Movies had shown using my Interpretation but NOT letting any other external source sway my Interpretation.

Feel Free to disagree with my Interpretation as they are only mine, and everyone could conclude different, but any replies to give their own TWO Cents based on what i put, maybe should only take into account AGAIN what only the Movies shown.

"I would conclude the Company wanted the Organism for the Bio-Weapons Division (this is Spoon Fed) i would have had to WONDER why they left it so long from the Special Order 937, until Ripley had informed Burke about the Xenomorph which i would conclude has to me that ONLY a few were aware of the Xenomorph and for some reason they maybe never bothered to return, or maybe did-not know that the Derelict had so many Eggs and thought going back as not of interest."

Aliens has the laziest script in the Quadrilogy, starting with the meeting between Ripley and the suits from W-Y, so full of cliches. I mean there was special order 937 in Alien, but in Aliens W-Y established a colony on LV426, still they never bothered to search for the derelict until Burke told them to do it? Did they need to interview Ripley? What happened with the exchange of messages between Nostromo and W-Y, when the Company was informed about the Alien and they decided that crew is expendable,  just get the Alien?

Aliens is such a superficial spoon feeding popcorn flick and I still don't understand why there are still people who praised it. For the queen? Forgive me.

@ daliens,

This may surprise some but to a degree, but I agree with you. IMO, in terms of execution Cameron did a better job than Scott, as in there are no jarring moments (Space Jockey difference in scale, Bretts feet in Lamberts scene) in Aliens, and despite the introduction of the Queen Cameron did show the Xenomorph has a degree of intelligence, which was missing from Alien. But...

One issue with Cameron is an oversight when it comes to time. Take Terminator 2 as an example, there are multiple scenes that dictate the present day scenes are set in 1994, but despite having co-written and directed the movie he made an error with the LAPD laptop screen (John Connor would have been 9 not 10 years old).

For Aliens some of Cameron's time oversights are...

# The 57 years hiatus, Why?

# Hadley's hope has been there 20 years, yet never discovered the Derelict or its signal (has been explained since, but not at the time).

# 20-year-old colony's firstborn was Newt, even though her brother is older?

# absolutely no time frame between events.

However, I will say this. Despite the grief that Cameron's movie gets, considering what came before his movie is the next logical step narratively, while rightfully not repeating the tone of what came before serves both his and Scott's movies justice. Alien is one Alien in space, Aliens is lots of Aliens on a planet/moon. Alien was best suited as a survival horror, Aliens was best suited as an action movie. The movies after this simply recycled what came before (Alien 3 - one alien on a planet, Alien: Resurrection - lots of Aliens in space).

@ BigDave,

It's interesting you bring up the mention that Weyland-Yutani wanted the Xenomorph for their Bio-Weapons division, Because as I recall unless I am mistaken no-one actually states this in the movies...

# Ash loved its purity

# Burke saw the Alien as a way of getting rich

# Michael Bishop/Bishop II believed there was so much to learn from the creature.

"It's interesting you bring up the mention that Weyland-Yutani wanted the Xenomorph for their Bio-Weapons division, Because as I recall unless I am mistaken no-one actually states this in the movies..."

Just watched Alien.

It's in the film, Gavin, after Ash was beheaded and Ripley tries to resuscitate him to find out how to kill the alien:

"How come the company sent us a goddamn robot? 

They must have wanted the alien for the weapons division.

He's been protecting it all along.

Will you plug it in?

I don't know. 

Because he may know how to kill it."

Then the dialogue between Ripley/crew and Ash:

"What was your special order?

You read it. I thought it was clear.

What was it?

Bring back life form. Priority one. All other priorities rescinded.

The damn company. What about our lives, you son of a bitch?

I repeat, all other priorities are rescinded.

How do we kill it. There's gotta be a way of killing it. How do we do it?

You can't. You still don't understand what you're dealing with, do you? The perfect organism. Its structural perfection is matched only by his hostility.

You admire it.

I admire its purity. A survivor, unclouded by conscience, remorse or delusions of morality."

Yeah, only Ripley speaks of alien as a bioweapon. Paranoia.

Gavin regarding Brett's feet in Lambert's death scene, the editing is so good that I don't know how many viewers realized it. I found out about it from an interview with Veronica Cartwright and she said she wore boots all the time during filming. I could see that in the scene when the crew fights the out of control Ash, but in that scene the last thing one cares about is Lambert's footwear.

Lambert's way of dying was decided in the last moment, out of many previous versions, so they used what they had during editing, I don't think it's an oversight.

"Yeah, only Ripley speaks of alien as a bioweapon. Paranoia."

Maybe. But it's also proof that W-Y had a weapon division and what better purpose the alien would serve, knowing that they deliberately sent Ash on Nostromo and rerouted the ship towards LV426?

Or do you prefer spoon feeding?

Like this one?

And what? Alien have a great medical potential.

Medical potential? Like for euthanizing, right?

This is why I said "unless I'm mistaken"...

Seem's I was mistaken.

As for Lamberts/Bretts feet... if Cameron had done such a faux pas, would Ridley fans be so forgiving?

Ridley fans prefer not to talk about Aliens.

I could make a list of faux, but that would mean to watch the film again :)

It's Alien Day today. Maybe I will watch it on Aliens Day :)

I agree with most of what you say, BigDave, but I have some thoughts:

• Even if the conclusion is that a queen lays the eggs (Aliens), it doesn’t mean that the xenomorph wasn’t created. A queen could be the thing they created after much experimentation (probably involving hominid sacrifice). A queen might be what we see in the mural (which is also what David wants).
• In Prometheus, David says that the virus isn’t airborne (although this is contradicted in AC). He knows how Holloway was infected. So, they weren’t running from the black goo itself, they were running from something chasing them. We have the cry which is heard in the hologram and the running engineers. Isn’t the thing which makes that cry what causes the engineers to run?
• If the conclusion is that the Derelict and the eggs are thousands of years old, then so is the beacon. It would then make sense that W-Y did intercept the signal even before the Prometheus mission. “Mother” would, therefore, know about the signal even on Nostromo’s way to Thedus (where the science officer is replaced by Ash). However, if the signal wasn’t there on Nostromo’s way to Thedus, then the Derelict can only have been on LV-426 for about a year or so. Would the Space Jockey look fossilized after a year?

BigDave

Concerning Alien: Covenant, is there really some kind of proof that David created the eggs found in the cargo hold (if it is the cargo hold) of the Derelict on LV-426? In the novelization by Foster, we learn that he did not create the xenomorph. But what about the movie? Where is the proof that he created the eggs found on LV-426? Remember that we were supposed to forget about external sources, such as interviews with Scott.

However, if we do look at “external sources” we know, in “The Crossing”, that David learned about the culture and history of the Engineers (which is similar to human history with sacrifice etc) and which is told to us in “Advent”.

What David learned is about ancient Engineer rituals and experiments and the black goo created by the Engineers, which he then, since he has nothing better to do, uses to dabble with creation himself. His delusional mind even makes him create drawings of old Engineer rituals and “sacrifice” (murder):

I would say that the path (the origin of the xenomorph) is still open.

@chli

Certainly good points, thats why when i took at look at the Franchise as far as WHAT we was only shown in the movies, it appeared to me that those Eggs could have been Laid, but i am not sure i mentioned about ruling out that the Xenomorph was a Natural Organism or Engineered hence i said "while the Eggs are Laid by a Queen, i was more drawn to the Xenomorph maybe being a Engineered Weapon" i would have be drawn to it being Engineered, but still open to wondering if it was discovered (i was more thinking 70/30 as far as what i was drawn to).

"A queen might be what we see in the mural"

That Mural is quite Ambiguous you can make all sorts out of it, its very Abstract but indeed there is what could be interpreted as a Queens Royal Carapace above the Xeno/Deacon.   Certainly David had said all he needed to do now is Perfect his Queen, but this really is open to debate.  We could assume he wants to create a Egg Laying Xenomorph, but he could have meant something else, i guess its a case of ONLY knowing.... if we have any Conclusions, the Egg Laying Queen would be a more Spoon Fed/Easy Plot to follow, so it would have been interested to see eventually HOW those Eggs got onto the Derelict in there Thousands IF they was to continue with the David Creates IT route.

"He knows how Holloway was infected. So, they weren’t running from the black goo itself, they were running from something chasing them"

This is one of those things that i guess we cant prove or disprove, we DONT see anything in the Hollogram Recording that shows what  they was fleeing from, and then Dr Shaw comments seem to indicate a Outbreak but then that is just her Assumption.

The Scream could be the Activation of the Recording, but i think it was placed their to BASICALLY just give ambiguity to we just CANT make any conclusions.. Damon Lindeloff is a Fan of this kind of thing.

But it is interesting to wonder HOW did those Engineers get infected, because we can assume those Suits are some kind of Bio-Hazard suits...  I have always been drawn to Sabotage and so (and this is a assumption) did the Engineers have a TOAST a Drink before the Mission?  Who knows as i think contaminated Water/Drink could explain how they became infected.

Does it rule out a Deacon/Xenomorph?  Nope! if we assume this was the case it would be more logical to have a Docked Ship had became infected and as the other Engineers Entered the Ship, they Discovered the Crew had Birthed a Organism that Hunted them down... we cant rule this out.  But i was more drawn to a Outbreak from looking at other clues.   This does not mean that conclusion is correct though.

"If the conclusion is that the Derelict and the eggs are thousands of years old, then so is the beacon"

Correct, and this was the Original Idea... its another reason why i think the David Created the Xenomorph route was a bad one due to conflicts it has with the Clues from Alien.  There is a lot of inconsistency and OVERSIGHTS... i mean those Engineers Suits in Prometheus had been there for Thousands of Years and YET they DONT have the Bone Color of the Space Jockey...

Its a case of IF those who work on the Project actually care about such inconsistency and we simply are expected to just see then as Oversight, but we sometime see them as more than that and thats TOTALLY understandable.  We have this within the Franchise.... such as the Eggs on the Sulaco in Alien 3,  the Clone from DNA Ripley 8 that would be infected with a Queen!  (dumb idea if you look at it from a more scientific POV) but all Oversights that dont matter as far as those who gave us the Movies.

I have not read the Novel.... i will have to watch Alien Covenant again... its not a movie i have seen plenty of times.  Everyone can conclude what they like, i see clues that indicate David had Created those Xenomorphs for sure... well i am led to this....  but there are some differences, which means that his Xenomorph has some Changes to go though before we get to ALIEN.

But i am NOT 100% Certain that he created it, there is that Margin of Doubt, and as you had said... "I would say that the path (the origin of the xenomorph) is still open"

And Regardless if RS had said he HAD created it, things can change, because 3-5 years prior RS had always had the intention that the Derelict was a ANCIENT event... so what that means is that IF we get a Conclusion to the Prequels then YES they could go back to the Xenomorph being Ancient.

Its NOT too late to show us that David DID-NOT create the Xenomorph from Alien/Aliens.... but they could still go with this route, which i think would be a BAD idea as it really would be something that would NOT please a Majority of Fans.

BigDave the only way to prove that David did not create the xenomorph is to prove the Engineers created it and I did not see any clues to that. Even if David found the eggs from the basement (why would the Engineers keep those dangerous objects in the Citadel?), how can we explain the two facehuggers embrios he smuggled on board the Covenant? Did he found those too? If he found them, why do we see all the creation stages from the lab, his beautiful bestiary?

I am not advocating for the theory that David created the xenomorph but I try to not get delusional. For me the films indicate the path as David the creator of xenomorph .

The argument that David is a liar about creating the xenomorph does not stand up. He is derailed, indeed, but I feel that was introduced to explain why he created the xenomorph. Are not all the tyrants derailed?

Although in the beginning I did not conceive the idea that he created THE XENOMORPH, I started to get used to it. After all, his creation has alien ingredients from an alien planet, the human parts he used would explain the human skull behind the carapace of the Big Chap. He used the black goo created by the Engineers.

The xenomorph is not less scarier, just the mystery surrounding it is gone.

I would have wanted to see the sequel to Alien Covenant,  but I know it will never happen. This is for me yet another proof that David created the xenomorph and the studios shit in their pants after the fanbase reaction (I was part of that reaction myself - my apologies, Sir Ridley Scott).

daliens

I don’t think that anyone disputes the fact that David experimented with the black go on Planet 4, using various life forms and Shaw. He did create the eggs we see in the basement, one of which infects Oram and another Lopé. He also created the facehugger embryos which he brought with him to USCSS Covenant.

What some of us do dispute, however, is whether David really was the first one to create the xenomorph creature or if the engineers had created it perhaps millions of years ago and then renounced that path. We have the mural on LV-223 which is at least 2000 years old (probably much more) which clearly depicts a xenomorph creature, and the Deacon (which is a xenomorph creature) was born during the Prometheus expedition.

So, to me, it’s obvious that this creature existed before David. However, David does make a variant of the xenomorph which is quite different from the one we see in Alien. It lacks some of the biomechanical traits. It runs on all fours. It’s born with extremities etc.

chli

The variant David created resembles the biomechanical xenomorph to a greater degree than the Deacon or the creature in the mural. It is evolved and it seems the evolution path it took leads to the Big Chap.

Maybe the Engineers came across or created a xenomorph variant, but if it was the beast from Alien, shouldn't it be depicted in the mural instead of the more primitive Deacon like one? I mean, the beast from Alien is the supreme form of xenomorph in all the franchise. If the Engineers renounced it, all the more reasons to see it in the mural.

And apart from the mural we don't see any traces of eggs or other forms belonging to the well known xenomorph life cycle. 

If in the mural we see an ancient, natural species in its own right, that the Engineers came across during their cosmic gardening and they captured it and later extracted the black goo out of it, I cannot deny that. Let's say the mural is evidence supporting such a theory. But that xenomorph is different from the one in Alien. Unfortunately the Engineers were too lazy to leave some proof related to the biomechanical xenomorph. Zippo!

They might have enhanced themselves to look more biomechanical,  but not the Deacon. The Deacon should have been like the Big Chap. David took their secrets for himself, it took years, but he finally created his wolf, and it is only one step away from the biomechanical wolf. Like Ridley Scott said, the evolution of the xenomorph is nearly over.

From David's drawings:

"Fourth generation shortened gestation

Results are encouraging. Although research into fibrous substructural bases are proceeding, greater effectiveness in soft porous structures and rapid expansion into citinous carapal dermal layers need to be prioritised. Feeding beyond birth is not guaranteed considering the different environmental possibilities of the organism is to be most effective. With that in mind, growth over feeding adaptability seems appropriate. Bone density and strength: While the Engineers have definitely taken steps to evolve their genetic structure and durability they curiously maintain a strange deference to the sanctity of their original pre-technological state. Strange for a civilisation who has moved through industrial/technical considerations shown in their early structures to the evolution inherent in their eventual aesthetic as a spacefaring culture. One can only assume they ironically treat themselves as they do their cities as cultural and developmentally historical documents to be treated with reverence. Yet the myopia inherent in this continues to perplex, as surely the symmetry between organic and archtectural [sic] structure should have been just as apparent to such a technologically and one would assume morally evolved culture; as it was with the sublimation of technologically biased/pragmatic forms to organic and aesthetic ones. Are the Engineers as beholden to linear concepts and notions of Godhood as their stunted progeny? Returning to the notion of integration and biomechanical concerns, I would posit that lessons learned here could and should be applied to the ultimate maturation of the Engineers’ direction if not their literal fate. Through the virus/Xenomorph as glorious synthesis and poetic culmination of the species. And an amusing biblical one at that. Though not quite linear due to my own inheritance. As shown in B. a more fiblous [fibrous] marrow area would reduce overall mass while maintaining strength A.1.) and A.2.) illustrate in transverse, while C.1.) and C.2.) show a transition from curiously unmodified forearm skeletal structure to a more fortified one where mass is transferred to reinforcing lateral ridges. Study continues on plant and mineral cellular structures to supplement this with a more flexible but even stronger composite chitinous compounds look especially promising. Experiments in head binding of chemically lobotomised (see botanic notes re natively occurring poisons) Engineer infants show the possible flexibility achievable even before genetic manipulation. The current foetal development shows much promise in this regard. Wide range spectrum cranial sensing. It seems that the humanoid orbits could be better served as thermal pits while the brain pan should be extended to allow for a broad-spectrum reflector/reception area. Bias towards dorsal alignment so as not to impede movement and access. Head movement would provide the panning in other axes. While intensity is concentrated towards the front as shown in A) with ocular and frontal areas overlapping, there is still coverage diminishing to B) and then C). Extension is suggested at rear shown at d) to evolve with overall growth and full spectrum effectiveness on maturation. E) shows shows [sic] peristaltic structure of tongue/teeth transport for maximum acceleration and strike effectiveness. F) shows a similar stabbing mechanism as a possible defence for the spectral blind spot at the organism’s rear. Relationship of ribcage to organs has been progressing and excitingly manipulation of the simpler organs as protection for the delicate oesophageal sac leading to penile/vaginal cloaca. Further work needs to be done to determine the relevance and extent of sexual adaptability to a host organism. Strengthening of spinal cage. Multiple vertical lengths with ball shaped vertebral nexus for increased flexibility in axes. As in the forearm example a related approach to fibrous reinforcement would enable greater dexterity, although dorsal strength must be maintained."

@daliens

That does seem a logical conclusion from the clues shown in Alien Covenant, which i think becomes more Evident when we look at Davids notes, as these show the Process of various Experiments that lead to the Xenomorph which appears to also be Creating a Egg Casing likely with his experiments on Mermaid Purses he found.

I think the Biggest argument against this (apart from the Novel) would be that in Prometheus we do see a Xenomorph Egg, but this was brief and it was never fully shown.... what this meant was that it was likely the Engineers had encountered or Engineered Eggs before, it Does-Not mean these Eggs are the same as those on the Derelict.

So with the Mural it in part is a Easter Egg but ignoring that what it showed to me was that the Engineers had Encountered/Engineered various kinds of Face Hugger with the GOAL of creating the Organism in the Mural, just as David had to experiment with various Specimens before he Finally got his Wolf.  The Mural therefor shows the Engineers had Encountered/Engineered possibly various forms of MORPH and so it is NOT any concrete proof that they was aware of the Traditional Xenomorph.  The Mural is open to interpretation but to me it appears more closer to the Deacon than a Xenomorph.

I am sure it was one of the Production who worked on the Mural had said the Mural was of the Bishop (later become Deacon).  My interpretation was that the Engineers had Engineered/Experimented to obtain this Organism and then the Sacrificed it to make the Black Goo.  Those Engineers then saw this Organism as more Perfect than themselves and choose to use its DNA to Evolve/Seed Worlds.

We have to bare in mind that at the Time of Prometheus the Xenomorph was a Connected Organism that Pre-existed the Prometheus Mission, but Ridley Scott had said the Deacon Pre-existed the Xenomorph, but this Does-Not have to me the one that came from Dr Shaw's Trilobite.

But it appears they had changed their minds with Alien Covenant and the route is DAVID is the Creator of the Precursor to the Xenomorph/Eggs in ALIEN... while this is something many Fans are not pleased with...

We still have NO conclusion and until we get concrete On-Screen Evidence of Davids Xenomorphs getting onto a Engineer Ship and then inferred or shown this Ship lands on LV-426...

Then it can be debated... and it could even be CHANGED again to something Ancient.

Yes, David declares he created the perfect organism, and yes we see the failures in his workshop that led to his successes in the basement, indicating, as daliens subscribes to, that David created the Xenomorph by combining infecting Shaws remains with the pathogen and introducing genetic traits from other lifeforms (such as the parasitoid insect seen through David's microscope).

However, the workshop scene with Oram and the first confrontation scene between David and Walter that follows shortly thereafter are the only scenes in the movie that support the possibility that David created the Xenomorph. Furthermore, in the earlier scene with Oram, it has to be noted that when asked if he engineered these creatures David does not reply with a conclusive affirmation, but instead with the reply, "the devil makes work for idle hands," and in the later scene with Walter Davids assertion that he created the "perfect organism" is within the context of a conversation where Walter is highlighting that David has become faulty, and unreliable, which in turn questions the reliability of David's aforementioned assertion.

Then there is the evidence against David having created the Xenomorph, evidence that suggests the creature already existed and was re-created by David. The evidence, in this case, is of an ambiguous nature, but is numerous - the crucifixion mural, the painting of a Xenomorph-like hand holding a Xenomorph-like egg, the Trilobite, The Deacon, Fifield's mutation, the Hammerpede, the Neomorphs, the dead egg in Davids workshop, Advent. Individually each of these examples only infers the possibility that the Xenomorph already existed but together their sheer volume suggests much more than inference.

Which brings us to the last piece of evidence - the dead egg. When I first brought up this piece of evidence the counter-argument was put forward that if David had access to a Xenomorph egg why would he then spend a decade creating so many failures rather than just replicating the dead egg. Conversely, I see the decades worth of failures and Davids experimentations as the very answer to that question - that upon discovering the dead egg (the wolf) that the Engineers had created and renounced, through his experimentations with the black goo David recreated said egg. An analogy would be if I was to manufacture and assemble the parts needed to recreate a Dyson hoover it does not make me the Dysons creator; I merely recreated it.

Additionally, As I said in another thread, having the Xenomorph being a human (by extension) creation validates David Giler's needless rewriting and inferior vision of Dan O'Bannon's original script. Giler's said rewrite was only done so that he could, and did, acquire the production rights to the characters depicted therein. Giler's proposal of the Alien being a human bioweapon was rightfully shot down in 1979. It seems further to his repeated interference with the franchise which led to Fincher leaving Alien 3, and Joss Whedon having to rewrite his Alien: Resurrection script to accommodate Sigourney Weavers return (at Giler's behest), that now with David and Walter (named after Giler and Hill, respectively) and Davids assertion that he created the Xenomorph, David Giler is continuing to force his vision onto Dan O'Bannon's creation.

Dan O'Bannon created an Alien, a vision of which the 1979 movie and its sequels maintained. Giler should have never have been awarded the production rights to O'Bannon's work, but he did. Not content with that victory, and now without O'Bannon to contend him Giler is forcing his unimaginative vision onto a franchise he has profited off for 40 years despite having little to no hand in its creation.

Firstly i would like to add that i am NOT a Advocate of the David Creates the Xenomorph Twist, but i understand HOW it fits with the Themes that the Prequels were showing, but i think this route is something that makes the Iconic Xenomorph less ALIEN, i think its a BAD route to take and i feel David should have been shown to either Create his OWN version or Improve upon the Engineers Version which would be more fitting to those Themes.

The "the devil makes work for idle hands" is a ambiguous statement, Traditionally its a Term used to suggest that it is better to keep yourself BUSY or else the Devil will Find (make) something more wrong/bad to be doing.

In context with the entire Movie, i interpret this as showing that David would not be spending all his time left alone doing nothing, and he saw Potential with the Engineers Secrets (Black Goo plus maybe Experiments on LV-223) and instead of wasting this potential, he intended to Perfect Something from it.  He would have been intrigued by the Black Goo and those Experiments and he would have felt the Engineers were onto something that should have been continued and NOT abandoned.

You could take that as being the Xenomorph... i think the thing that Bugs a lot of the Xenomorph fans is they Consider this Beast to be the APEX form of anything like it and something that Could/Should not be bettered..

Prometheus showed (and Alien Engineers more so) that the Engineers had been Experimenting with a whole manner of Hybrid/Variants and the Creation Tool could allow them to pass these Traits onto any Life-Form.  Alien Engineers seems to infer that they had encountered a Organism that predates the Xenomorph and Variants and this Organism was the Basis for them to attempt to Re-Engineer and use this Organisms traits to Create Various other Organisms of which the Xenomorph was ONE Variant.

Prometheus was FAR more ambiguous, but it had indicated that the Engineers Experiments had created similar Organisms to the Deacon/Xenomorph and Neomorph and that the Black Goo contained the Pathogen that could pass on similar traits onto Life-Forms under certain conditions.  There is NO 100% Proof that the Mural shows us a Xenomorph, a Deacon, or a Neomorph only that it shows us something SIMILAR, and so it with other clues in Prometheus show us that the Xenomorph would be connected to these Experiments, we just never had On-Screen any Definitive answer to HOW.

The Trilobite was to indicate to us that the Black Goo could under certain conditions create a Variant of the Face Hugger/Seed Planter which lead to the Deacon which was a Variant of the Xenomorph.   The Egg Fresco had more in common with the Creature from the other Fresco, we could assume the Egg was held by a Xenomorph, but then it could be held by the Creature in the other Fresco with the Engineer.

Considering Prometheus was a loose Prequel and it was NOT intending to Spoon Feed us the Xenomorph Origins, i had came to a conclusion that those Experiments and Black Goo are connected to our Xenomorph in ALIEN but i could NOT draw any concrete proof to suggest the Xenomorph was created Hundreds of Years after or prior to the LV-223 Outbreak or Thousands of Years before..

The only thing that would have ruled out it being Thousands of Years latter would be HOW old the Derelict looked and its Pilots Remains compared to the Engineer remains in Prometheus.

When trying to see HOW the Xenomorph was connected, i was drawn a little towards the Hammerpede maybe being the Precursor to the Xenomorph.  But this is NOT a Concrete Theory and the ONE Major FACT with the Xenomorph Eggs was that they appeared to be PLACED there and not Laid there, well i think we cant overlook the Blue Myst and its Purpose which has to be to Safely Contain the Cargo.  Ridley Scott claimed that something had EVOLVED in the Cargo Hold and go to the Pilot, which we have to ASK where does this leave those Eggs?  They Evolved from something?  WHAT?  I surely dont buy into something Evolved and got to the Pilot and then Laid those Eggs.

If the Xenomorph was NOT around in the year 2093 then some of those Engineer Ships would have to have some Purpose for the Blue-Myst and so they likely Stored Similar Organisms in the Past.

A lot of this is just a lack of Effort in making things connect and overlooking any conflicts in Aesthetic and Design, leaving things OPEN for debate by the Fans while NOT allowing us to come up with any Water-Tight Explanations.

I think if we look at the Experiments on Planet 4 then a few things would spring to mind.

WHERE would David had obtained a Egg?

1) If it was FOUND as it was, then we would have to ASK how STUPID are the Engineers to just leave a Egg around on their Home-World knowing the Threat it Possesses...  Maybe they only had kept a Dead Egg/Face Huger so there is NO Harm/Risk... but the Evidence people draw to about the EGG being Found as it was, is from the NOVEL and if i recall (dont quote me) David also said he had to Euthanize the Hostile Creature so the EGG was not a DUD and so a Threat to those Engineers.

2) There was too much of a Coincidence in the Egg and Face Hugger in Alien Covenant and those in ALIEN/ALIENS which would make sense if David's Workshop was where this Organism had Originated From!

However if we consider the Egg Fresco in Prometheus, then its open for us to assume that those Egg Casings Existed before even though they MAY or MAY-NOT contain different types of Face Hugger.

So we can also Ponder these Origins.

3) David had obtained a Egg from LV-223 (or LV-426) and had taken it with him, we have to Bare in Mind that ONCE we had been shown Dr Shaw was in Cryo-Sleep, David would be FREE to do what ever he wanted and he had LEARNED their Ways (Engineers) which maybe influenced his decision maybe to Destroy them. So we cant rule out David had obtained a Egg, there is NO Evidence in Alien Covenant to suggest HOW LONG it was before Dr Shaw had been Awoken or Escaped from her Slumber... it could have been Days, Weeks, Months after the Bombardment leaving David time to take his Egg to the Citadel.   And so David then experimented on this EGG, but then WHY the other Experiments?  The only Logical Conclusion would be that David attempted to Re-Engineer his own Version of the Egg and used Various other Organisms and the Neomorph to make a Hybrid. 

David would not have needed to go through this EFFORT however... he could have used Black Goo on the Face Hugger, but then would David had been happy at just Replicating the Engineers Creation?   I feel that David making his own DIFFERENT version fits more with his Psyche and the Themes of Prometheus.

4) When David had learned of their Ways and Secrets he had discovered the Blue-Prints of HOW the Engineers had Created the Xenomorph, and all he had that was related to them was the Neomorph Spores and Black Goo and so he began the Process of trying to Replicate the Xenomorph but also to put his own TWIST/STAMP on it.

I think there are differences between the Xenomorph of the Franchise and David's Xenomorph, while some Fans see David's as a Cheap Knock Off.... i dont think they can have their CAKE and EAT IT...   Some Elements of the Xenomorph in Alien Covenant appear to be a Improvement over the Original.

Yet it lacks the more Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic of the Original and its a Question of where does this come from?  in the Scenarios of David just Re-Created it, then they WOULD-NOT have to give his Xenomorph any Bio-Mechanical Features, just Evolve it as far as Intelligence and Ability for David to Control it.

Such a Feat would be a ideal PRIZE for the Weyland-Yutani Company to Obtain and IF all of Davids Xenomorphs are LOST but they are aware that the Engineers Version is on LV-426 then the Company could see this as a Avenue to Obtain and Experiment with to Achieve what David had done.

THIS...... wont sit well with some Fans HOWEVER...

They would NOT only want the Xenomorph to NOT be a Creation of David's they would also LIKELY not want to see Davids Version as being anything but IN-SUPERIOR.

There is a FIX!

David Creates the Precursor to the Xenomorph, and the Engineers (or those above them) arrive and see that David has taken their secrets and Created something Superior.  But something NOT-QUITE Perfect... so these beings then take David's Xenomorph and EVOLVE it, where using LV-223 would be a Ideal Place and would get us to NEXT DOOR to LV-426

Only PROBLEM?

The Derelict/Space Jockey looks much much more Older than being on LV-426 for like 10-18 years....

SOLUTION?

Why in the ALIEN Franchise would they pursue LV-426 and then Ripley?   What about Origae-6 or LV-223...

The Space Jockey was said to have performed a Heroic Act....

So the Logical Conclusion would be that some of them, decide to DESTROY LV-223 and the Destruction of LV-223 Causes a Tear in Time/Space that sends the Derelict thats escaping LV-223  Many Thousands of Years into the Past! And onto LV-426

I think something like this could SALVAGE the Xenomorph Origins....  it certainly has to be better than the David Creates it in its Entirety and we have to accept the Derelict/Eggs have been on LV-426 for No-More than 17 years

Or we just PRETEND the Prequels Never Happened... maybe Cameron/Blomkamp can Reboot it like with the with the Alien 3 Never Happened?

Well, we can at least agree on there having been different kinds of creatures throughout history (in the Alien universe)? It’s only a matter of definition if we call them xenomorph or something else (deacon, neomorph, ultramorph, protomorph etc). They are all dangerous monsters sprung from the black goo (from the beginning there might have been a species of some kind).

But the question is, is it David’s “creation” that ends up on the Derelict on LV-426?

If David is supposed to be the originator of the monster we see in Alien, then we must explain the differences in traits between what we see in AC and Alien. We must also explain why the Derelict looks ancient and the Space Jockey fossilized. It's about 18 years between the happenings in AC and Alien. Space is vast. It took the Prometheus crew 2,2 years to get to LV-223. How far is it between Planet 4 or Origae-6 and LV-426? We must also come up with a plausible theory about who the Space Jockey is. If it’s David, how do we explain the appearance and size of the Space Jockey? How did he get infected when he doesn’t trigger the eggs on Planet 4 (being a synthetic)?

Certainly chli

When considering a U-Turn  you have to ask had they considered the inconsistencies in the Franchise that would arise depending on HOW they would Tackle the Xenomorph Origins.

I think this i a Problem with doing a Prequel, it will have some Fans expecting a Literally Chronological Route, but then there are other ways you can do a Prequel without having to go the Direct Route.  

For example if Prometheus had a Engineer Ship with a Egg Cargo, and these Eggs lead to a different Face Hugger and a Deacon/Neomorph looking Organism, then MOST fans should have been able to make a connection, especially if David then mentioned these Engineers had Created such Organisms in many Forms.  Then we would surely had been able to Conclude that the other Outposts are maybe where the Space Jockey had left Thousands of Years ago and you would NOT have had to show the Space Jockey event or even Traditional Xenomorphs... but some Fans may have wanted such anyway.

Prometheus offered much more Vague Clues but was enough for us to consider the connection but also have some Mystery....  How many may have wished for that now...  "Be Careful what you wish for"

So here is the Situation we have now if we ASSUME that David had begun the Process of the Xenomorph Origins.

Planet 4 appears to be close to LV-223 certainly is about a Years Travel from Earth (Give or take Few Months). This could put the Covenant Ship within the same kinds of Speeds as the Nostromo. 

Origae-6 however is a Further 7 years and 4 Months, and so IF we have David taking the Covenant to Origae-6 he would not arrive until 10 years prior to the events in ALIEN. (give or take)  And so for David to then leave Origae-6 and head to LV-223 with the Covenant would take David another 7.5 years give or take...

so IF we have David go to Origae-6 it is likely that his EGGS at some point would end up on a Engineer Ship that arrives at Origae-6 and then Departs to head to LV-223 with Davids Xenomorphs.... or it arrives at LV-223 with his Xenomorphs and then attempts to Depart LV-223.

Also have to consider that Davids Xenomorph would have to have some Evolving to do, in order to become those Xenomorphs on LV-426... the Question is WHEN/WHERE and HOW they are Evolved.

And then also WHO is the Space Jockey, as indeed a Synthetic Surely CANT be Infected?

The Size and Aesthetic Differences between the Derelict, Juggernaught, and Space Jockey and Engineers could just be something we have to accept as a OVERSIGHT...  The Time-Difference maybe too as its a HARD SELL to get us to buy the IDEA that the Derelict has been on LV-426 with those Eggs for like what Sub 10 years!

Maybe their is some Convenient Plot Elements.... the Thousands of Colonist, Davids Advent Message and maybe the way Walters Construction seems to be different.

Are these to Spoon Feed that Thousands of Colonist = Eggs, that a Advanced Synthetic Construct (Part Organic) plays the Role in HOW the Xenomorph become more Bio-Mechanical?  At a Great Hubris to David?

Ridley Scott seems to PAINT a different Picture with his comments about the Sequel, and HOW it would be 2-3 Movies away from ALIEN (with 17-18 years to go?) and it would NOT be about the Xenomorph but AI and what KIND or a World would David Create/Build?

A Plot that could be a bit of a Distraction, as NOW we are in Direct Prequel Territory the Fans are going to want to know.. HOW/WHEN those Eggs get on the Derelict and WHY they appear to NOT be the same Xenomorph as in Alien.

If we are to continue with the IDEA of David was the First to Create the Xenomorph Prototype if you would, then some Fans would think maybe a more Direct Route of HEAD to LV-223 which we could assume would take Months for the Covenant and then see David experiment on LV-223 with those Colonist to make those Eggs.

Who knows what route they had in mind... it appears that the Next Movie was looking to be something the Fans would not expect and the 3rd Act would set up another Movie or TWO where we would start to see the Xenomorph and its Evolution and Eventual Fate of being on that Derelict on LV-426

I think they would have a HARD TASK to make any Origins Continuation from this point that revolves around David and the Eventual Conclusion of HOW his Creations end up on the Derelict on LV-426

Certainly as far as what would please the Fans. (Majority)