David Did Not Create the Xenomorph (Part 2)

Gavin I agree that David is delusional and the prince of lies, but a stronger proof that he created the xenomorph are the facehugger embrios. How could he have had those if he did not create them himself?

"As you can see, I've become a bit of an amateur zoologist over the years. It's in my nature to keep busy, I suppose. The pathogen took so many forms... and was extremely mutable. Fiendishly inventive, in fact. The original liquid atomized to... particles when exposed to the air. Ten years on, all the remains... outside of the original virus... Are these gorgeous beasts. Patience is everything. From the eggs came these parasites... Shock troops of the genetic assault. Waiting for a host entering the host... rewriting the DNA... Ultimately... producing... well, these enviable unions. My beautiful bestiary. Soon enough I began a bit of genetic experimentation of my own. Some cross-breeding, hybridising...

You engineered this, David?

Idle hands are the devil's workshop, Captain. Come. This is what I wanted to show you. My successes. You see, Captain... My work has been frustrated... by the lack of an essential ingredient.

Are they alive?

Waiting, really..

For what? What are they waiting for, David?

Mother. Perfectly safe, I assure you. Take a look."

In the above scene with Oram he explains how it all started, he has evidence of his experiments, his beautiful bestiary, all culminating with his successes from the basement.

There are two eggs in his lab, apart from the little ones on the table, one egg is sliced as for the other one, David removes one side of it and we have a glimpse of a dead facehugger inside. He does not say a word about them.

Again, David says a lot of lies, but all his lies are debunked in the film, except the fact that he created the xenomorph. Is that a lie too? A lot of evidence suggests otherwise.

What evidence do we have that the Engineers created the xenomorph? It comes to mind Shaw's reply from Prometheus: "Because this is what I choose to believe!"

And in the end, I will quote again Ridley Scott from another interview from March 3, 2017:

"Prometheus was about who and why? This is getting closer to who designed it and for what reason."

Doesn't matter. They did U-turn with A:C. They do U-Turn with A:C-2.

@chli

I think while the Novel Suggest that, the Movie does-not have the exact same scenes, as far as "menacing bipeds. Their tough exoskeletons gleamed like black steel. Though there were slight individual variations, all had in common the same threatening aspect - long tails ending in scorpion-like points, curving elongated skulls devoid of visible eyes, and jaws filled with teeth shining like chromed chisel.”  There are some Examples but i dont recall any Matching the Full Scale and Description as shown in the Novel... so again i think it depends on HOW did ADF come to include such things in the Novel?

"The hologram shows engineers running from something and those who don’t make it in time to the closing safety doors ends up dead with holes in their chests"

This can be interpreted as such and that SCREAM did not Help things...

But i cam to a different conclusion... we need to FORGET what we see in ALIEN and look at what we see in Prometheus.  which is this Black Goo Pathogen, that Dr Shaw had indicated she had seen something similar before (Ebola) and Janek mentioned he had to Nuke a Facility because some Scientist Spilled something.

The First Time we see any GOO is the Sacrificial Engineer, he consumes the Substance and a Violent Reaction occurs, his Body Molecule by Molecule is being Broken Down, and the Resulting Black Particles of Matter and Pathogen seem to FLY off, until the Engineers Legs are Dissolved and he Falls into the Water Fall/Lake.

Then we have the Hologram Scene, those Engineers do appear to be running away, but they also appear to be running towards that Big Head/Ampoule Room.  Some may say WHY run towards the Place the Pathogen is Stored?

Here we need to look at some Evidence... 

Firstly those URNS all remained intact until the Prometheus Crew (No Helmets) had affected the Environment, for Thousands of Years prior those Urns remained Intact!

Second the Engineers Head had remained in a Well Preserved Condition, YET his Body on the Outside is just a Hollow Shell (The Space Suit),  The Engineers Head when Re-Activated by the Probe that Stimulates Cells to become Active, suddenly EXPLODED.

I therefor assume that for some Reason the Big Head Room's Environment somehow Slowed Down or Prevented the Pathogen from having ANY effect... it HALTED it.  If this ASSUMPTION is correct it would give Good Reason for WHY those Engineers were all attempting to reach this ROOM.  It also would explain WHY the Engineers Head was Preserved, and WHY the Urns remained intact until the Human Crew with NO helmets arrived.

The Deleted Scenes showed our Engineer walked across the Surface of LV-223 with NO Helmet and so they likely dont use them to survive in that Environment but as some Bio-Hazard Protection,  in both terms of preventing the Pathogen to enter their Body, and also in Terms of preventing them from AFFECTING the Storage Room for the Pathogen.

Next i come to those Engineer Body's, nearly all of them had NO Chest Bust Holes, the Holes where in the Heads, but also other parts of the Body, Arms, Legs and well  in many places.  This could mean they was attacked by a Xenomorph.  But these Suits also look HOLLOW (which could be because thats easier from a Production Perspective so Less Weight).

When you look in context to what i have mentioned so far, and then look at Alien Covenant and how the Black Goo seemed to Replicate and then Escape the Engineers from what ever Orifice it could escape from....

ASK yourself this... what happens if they wore Space Suits?, would the Pathogen try and Escape from the Suit?

If we look at the Sacrificial Engineer and his Reaction was contained within a Space Suit, we could maybe ponder would such a Violent Chemical Reaction be like when you have a Mint/Minto into a Soda/Cola Bottle and Shake it... this creates a Violent Reaction and any SINGLE weak point in the Bottle and the Liquid/Gas will Escape/Explode out of this...  

I assume this explains the Holes in the Engineers Suits.. a Flaw in this Theory (which i put on here many times prior to Alien Covenant) is that with Alien Covenant we have to ask WHY those Engineers Bodys became like Petrified/Calcified?  (The Radical AI is the explanation but thats for another debate).

It is a Theory, that i think reflects the Clues, Dialect and Comments by Production, but its a theory that leaves a Question "so how does this explain the Fricken Xenomorph" it does-not...  we need to look at what happened to Dr Shaw in Prometheus and Davids experiments on Planet 4 or the Hammerpedes for that.

Here is a Image showing what i have been on about.

"Doesn't matter. They did U-turn with A:C. They do U-Turn with A:C-2."

Yeah, but I'm afraid it's too late, for some at least.

I don't know if I can accept that David lied about creating the perfect organism. Or if the Space Jockey is not a big bald humanoid in a suit. Or an android in a big bald humanoid's suit :)

Actually,  the more I think about the fact that David created the xenomorph,  the more interesting I find it. I want to see how he got the biomechanical one. In other circumstances we would never find out, leaving it a mistery.

Damn it, Ridley, you are the next visionary, always ahead of our times. People will understand later the lonely perfection of your dreams.

Damn it, Ridley, you are the next visionary, always ahead of our times. People will understand later the lonely perfection of your cuckoo.

Yeah. Sorry. I know. :)

"We have no other clue in Prometheus that the Engineers created the xenomorph"

I can agree with this... despite the indication was the Xenomorph had Originated from those Experiments or the Outbreak, but Alien Covenant threw that Curve-Ball that changed things.

If we go back prior to Alien Covenant, then indeed the intention was to indicate a connection, more direct in Alien Engineers, and then loosely with Paradise which became Prometheus.

So in Hindsight it became a bit of a MESS...  When looking at the other ideas for FIFIELD we could see that he was intended to have more Xeno/Deacon DNA, also he was intended to have ACID BLOOD  (did in drafts) then the Engineers Face Burn had occurred during his Struggle with the Trilobite.... but the Re-shoots while in Burns make up and alluded to it being from the Crash, yet there was no signs of FIRE DAMAGE on the Juggernaught.

The Fresco showed a EGG but this was not a complete shot and for a Split Second... 99% of people would missed it... 

The Engineers Cryo-Pods had Holes in them apart from the Surviving Engineer, while we never had a clear close up shot of those Cryo-Pods (again they was easily missed) the Props inside where Chest Busted Engineers, Holes the Size of what a Deacon would make.. yet Hole in Cryo-Pod much Smaller.. but alas this is another Oversight!

So there was clues..but there was little time spent on those clues, and some of the alternative designs and Acid Blood and whole Editing had made such clues hard to read or missing completely.

Alien Engineers gives the Biggest Clues, if you use that as a Rosetta Stone then Prometheus becomes NOT so ambiguous.

The Mural.... thats a Mystery, maybe it meant something, maybe its a Red Herring... the Fresco too... but i have had my LONG TIME theory on that... but its something that would take a LONG post....  i feel its pretty Solid though, but a ANCHOR point is the Sacrificial Bowl, which was replaced by the Green Rock, which i can SAFELY assume is because of the Scale of the Bowl, compared to when we saw it in the Sacrificial Scene would indicate the Sacrificial Engineer to be about 12-13ft Tall.  Which was the Intention!

The lack of Scale for our 7.5ft Engineers on LV-223 maybe meant that LARGER Sacrificial Bowl had to GO!

The lack of Scale for our 7.5ft Engineers on LV-223 maybe meant that LARGER Sacrificial Bowl had to GO!

OH C'MON! They use CG, to replace the bowl with the crystal. If they want, they can simply change the size of bowl. There is should be a good reason, or it's another mystery for mystery.

" and one of Lucifers many titles is "the prince of lies"

Certainly this is how Abrahamic Faiths have it, Lucifer does fit more with Prometheus and Enki too, and so actually the "prince of lies" would be "beacon of truth"   But in context to David and When ONE note is off the Symphony is well destroyed, yes David could be a bit bonkers and deluded.

I think however when we look at Prometheus and Alien Covenant as far as Davids Notes... then it could be take as he had created the Proto-Morph if you will.  I will answer this with my reply to daliens comment.

"David never saw that Deacon. That Deacon was an accident"

We have to remember David has a High IQ, we can assume he could Read the Engineer Writing in the Complex, who knows how much he gained from when he activated the Juggernaught Chair...

David had witnessed that Dr Shaw was carrying a NONE-Traditional Fetus.... while he never saw the Deacon in Prometheus.... (who knows after that Movie until they left) but you would BET he would have been interested to see what became of Dr Shaws Child.... 

So its possible he would have been interesting in REPLICATING the Event..   with Alien Covenant it showed that David had witnessed what the Neomorph Spores could create and he had attempted various experiments with them and using the Black Goo to take traits from various Organisms to in essence EVOLVE the Neomorph into the Xenomorph.  A understanding of the Black Goo as far as if we used Alien Engineers Nano-Scarabs would show you HOW the Black Goo can indeed be used to Cross/Hybrid and Obtain Traits from Organisms.

So daliens indeed what you are saying i feel is what we are being shown.... i dont think it was a WISE move.. and certainly was-not what was intended..

Something i am sure many wished they never saw, but maybe something we need to accept rather than Clutch at Straws... some fans still wont accept the Space Jockey is NOT a Skeleton... but everyone is entitled to their opinion even when One Note is Off ;)

I think what we need to look at is from Davids POV...

If he wanted to know what those Engineers were doing and wanted to Witness what they created First Hand, then Dr Shaw's Fetus was a Interesting Result... he never got to see the Deacon, but surely he would be wondering WHAT would Happen Next, he would maybe see similarity in Dr Shaws Fetus and the Mural, as far as the Face Huggers but he never got to see the END Product...  so we could assume he would maybe WANT to replicate that.

IF David had encountered the Neomorph, and a Xenomorph Egg then WHY THE HELL would he bother with all those other Experiments?

It would be Found Xenomorph Egg Check!   Got some Spores Check!   Now lets await for the Engineers and Humans and its Party Time!

You could suggest that he wanted to Create a Hybrid Version, that would combine the Neomorph Traits... and that could still be plausible...  The main Problem is such a PLOT is well a bit Crap, and so we can hope and look for clues to try and AVERT what we was shown instead of being in Denial!

Personally i would want David to go on and Evolve his Xenomorphs to be something else... but i feel its such a Coincidence that he Replicates something from LV-426, unless he uses/obtains a Egg.... but then we have to ASK why bother with all those other Experiments.

"i found my Wolf, then spent 10 years Fecking Around with in-superior versions"  that makes no sense!

We have to accept things and think how can we EVOLVE and change it moving forwards and not alter whats happened.. some Fans are upset at Camerons Bugs Life! And the Queen.... if RS was allowed to REBOOT that idea out of Existence and go with what was Originally Planned.. i dont think that would be ideal, and the Queen should remain...

So i think we need to FIX the problem and not IGNORE it... and so it makes more sense NOW that The Engineers or whoever created them will return they will Discover Davids Xenomorph and see what a Perfection in the Making that is... they would see David and see him as Similar, or maybe what Humanoids David Creates... and then these beings (Engineers or Creators) take Davids Xenomorph, take David or his Humanoids and Combine them to create the Eggs on LV-426.

THIS has to be the best way to go, the other option is get CAMERON and Blomkamp and ..... Re-boot the Prequels... they never happened lol.

By that i mean you just have to Roll with the Punches, and come out the other end with a better Round 2....  than just NOT accept and hope for a Reboot of Ideas...

"Camerons Bugs was Stupid"  sorry we have to accept this but this does-not have to mean thats the only kind of Xenomorph.

"The Space Jockey is NOT a Engineer" sorry we maybe have to accept it, but by Virtue of Scale and minor differences we can introduce the Space Jockey as something different... but a Skeletal Remains is a Stretch too FAR.

So basically we could go the route the Engineers or their Creators had DROPPED the Ball, then David picked it up, the Engineers then Take the Ball off David and then TOUCHDOWN/GOAL!  

Making David merely the Middle Man.... the Engineers or their Creators gave the A (maybe a bit on wards) in the Origins, David merely did the M and then those Engineers/their Creators do the Z and Voila we have those Eggs on LV-426.

daliens

Regarding the three dead engineers in the pilot room, there are holes in their hypersleep chambers just above their chests suggesting a chest burster exiting first through their ribcages then right through their hypersleep chambers.

As for the engineer pile outside the closed door, Milburn remarks: “This thing here. Like it’s opened from inside. Almost as if it exploded”. This is, of course, meant to be a reference to Dallas’s words about the Space Jockey’s chest wound: “Bones are bent outwards. Like he exploded from inside.”.

When it comes to the deacon being bipedal, and we accept that the resulting creature takes up traits from its host (which can also be debated), the engineer and human DNA match so there shouldn’t be any special differences, except the size (ultramorph).

"There is should be a good reason, or it's another mystery for mystery."

Certainly i think thats a Good Point, they could have made a CGI Smaller Bowl, it would be harder than a Green Crystal because this was placing something LARGER to cover something Smaller...    you would Replace Dumbo with a Mouse.. maybe thats not a ideal Anology so pass that... but  its easier to over CGI something with something Bigger, than to Replace with something Smaller....

But having a Smaller Bowl would NOT have been Impossible... so its open to WHY this was changed, could it be as i suspect?  But then if this really MATTERED or the Plot, then WHY not replace with Smaller Bowl.

Could it be because they changed the PLOT... well they seemed to change things on the FLY... look at the Scenes that got CUT just to show us the Engineers HATED Humans went Postal, Crashed and Got Burned and went on another Rampage for Survivors.

I think a lot shows that those working on the Prequels just cant make their minds up and stick to a A-Z Plot... and so YES we have to give Ridley Scott some of the blame for that.

"Engineers, humans, one and the same in my opinion. the two theories for Engineers relationship to humanity are.."

They certainly are created.. i think when looking at the Creation Layers many overlook David... he could be the ANSWER right there...

David was not created purely because Weyland wanted a SON to love as his own.....  I dont think Dr Shaw's answers to her Questions would have shown that GOD created Mankind to Love and Cherish for ever and ever!

The Sumerian Mythos well some interpretations, indicated a Race of Gods Sub created a Slave Race, who Rebelled and so they created another Slave Race (Mankind). If we look at the Biblical Account.... If Lucifer did-not rebel and take some of the Angels with him... WOULD God have created Mankind, but some accounts are his Fall was because he would not BOW down to worship Adam.

We should not stick all of our Eggs in One Basket as far as what Mythos to look at.... i think the Broad Themes should be applied though!

What Purpose does the David and Walter Models have?  They are to Serve Mankind, Created to make our Lives Easier and Perform  Tasks that could be deemed DIFFICULT or Dangerous to Mankind.

Another Purpose would be in context to Weyland Personally, for a Man who wishes to leave a Legacy, so he would be Immortalized in his works, and try and play GOD, then creating a David/Synthetics would make him feel is is a GOD.

Also if we consider that creating David and AI could be seen as a attempt to gain Immortality if Weyland could only just UPLOAD his Soul into a Synthetic....  

Then we could look at maybe these reasons being maybe similar to reasons for Creation the Further up the Ladder we go.

We also have to consider David... he was not happy with how his Creators had viewed him, not when he felt Superior and so David becomes Sentient and Rebels, and we see him also looking to WANT to be a Creator himself!

And so this also could apply to the higher levels of that Creation Ladder.....

The LV-223 Engineers could be to those Planet 4, as David or Replicants are to Mankind.

So back to your Slave Race Comment... yes why not... Space Jockeys could created Engineers for similar reasons as i mentioned, and Engineers could create Mankind (or Space Jockey do) to for the same reasons again and so Forth!

We could then ponder is this Slave/Task related to Sacrifice?  Highly likely, but then its for what reason... Create Life, Create Death, spread the Xenomorph... i think all options in context are possible.

I look at Planet 4 as in context to Paradise/Garden of Eden, a the Cradle of Creation, watched over by some Higher Beings.  Was their a Faction who had then done things against what was intended and BANISHED?

Did Mankind come from here before we was BANISHED?

I look at LV-223 as a Green-House, Nursery our Gardeners of Space would use to Test/Evolve various life and then Re-Seed them onto the Worlds.   My Prometheus Sequel ideas i was to show  a Flash Back where Primitive Apes were taken to LV-223 to then be Evolved into Mankind (Hybrid Engineer/Ape) and then taken to Earth.

They returned over and over... and the Stat Maps are saying "this is where you came from"  something had happened at some point that lead to LV-223 becoming something else... a Place to Create Horror... well some Engineers Discovered something Interesting and used this to Evolve themselves, and then attempted to use this to Create something to EVOLVE Mankind after we had upset them.

But alas such ideas or Plot is something that just does-not become very ALIEN, and i had some more Alieny ideas but it was Merging them... which i could not find a ideal way so i abandoned even trying!

A lot of Fans just feel the Prequels should Center around the Xenomorph and our Engineers/Space Jockeys are just enslaved to spread the Xeno-Seed.  I find some flaws with that though.

in HINDSIGHT... the Prequels should have been Left to a Mystery and maybe just go ahead with ALIENS 2 and AVP 3 etc.

"This thing here. Like it’s opened from inside. Almost as if it exploded”

This could also explain the theory i had too... i understand my posts are too long winded to be read by many though..   WHY i am pondering giving the site a indefinite break.. (in terms of if i just end up overflowing the site with endless pages that distract from other peoples discussions).

The DNA match was intended to show we came from them....  some take a 100% Match as meaning we are all the same...  but every Human would have a 100% Match, in context to that finding by Dr Shaw.

These would have a 100% Match in context too....

But then not every Genome would be identical (because we would all be Clones).

So it was to show we are very related, the flaw was that they should have said... "the Data shows we are nearly a 100% Match, we must have came from them!" 

But ALAS.

The Engineers have some differences, they seemed to have Enhanced themselves... but then i guess its a case of a Skinny Guy would have the same DNA match as a Massive Body Builder.

If we found a way/drug to stop out Body/Organs from Aging so we AGE 5X Slower, Essentially meaning we could live for 400-500 years... we would still have a DNA Match.

So we are connected, we came from them, they came from us or we both came from something else related...  the Engineers would come back and enhance us over and over, so we would become more and more like them. Up to a Certain Point....  but then it depends on HOW we look at the Sacrificial Scene and even if his applies to Mankind?

The hole Chest Busted Engineers and Exploded Engineer Props could have been from Production for Alien Engineers, when indeed the reasons for them was different...   some had been Chest Busted, some wounded by said Organisms.

The Prequels are full of changes of direction and flaws, that its open to debate and sometimes a mess...  i think we always have to consider what Spaights and Ridley Scott had been attempting though....... but i am not sure many Fans like the idea the Xenomorph is a Experiment created from the Discovery of a Organism the Engineers used their Creation/Hybrid Tool on to Extract Traits to Enhance themselves and Technology, while also making Various Bio-Weapon Xenomorphs too.

I think when looking at the WHOLE layers of Creation, maybe we can apply the idea (well one) i had...

The Space Jockey are either a Bio-Mechanical Being, or a Humanoid (not so Human) in a Bio-Mechanical Suit... they had Created/Came Across the Engineers and they had given them a WORLD to live on, taught knowledge to a limited degree, but they would in this COVENANT have to provide some Sacrifices on their part (need to give life to the Wolf and Lamb).

The Engineers Rebelled against this....  then Mankind was created to replace them....  and a WAR happened... The Engineers Masters Disappeared (could left the Galaxy) the Engineers then took their Masters Technology and Re-Engineered it.

They then renounced this after a WAR, and then began to Subjugate Mankind before Mankind started to Rebel, so the Engineers Returned to Creating a Bio-Weapon that Genetically similar to what their Masters used the Engineers for... the Engineers Re-Create this to use on Mankind.

I had about 5-6 variants of this idea, each a little different in various aspects.

For example Space Jockey could even be a Humanoid created/discovered for the same Task... what this does is take the idea i had posted just, and bring the Space Jockey as another Layer rather than Masters..

Space Jockey Race Enslaved, Rebel, Create Engineers, etc and we see Engineers Repeat this with Mankind, and Mankind Repeat this with David etc etc.

This leaves a VERY Ancient and ALIEN element thats been LONG gone, as the TOP of the Chain.... we could then bring these beings (Starbeasts) back!

chli

Please look again, frame by frame at the pile of dead bodies, the holes in the suits are everywhere, BigDave also put a collage above to see similarities with the effect of the black goo on other Engineers (planet 4, sacrificial).

I saw the holes in the cryopods, but never once camera stops or zoom in on them, if I did not read about them, I would probably not have noticed. We don't see in the film the props of those 3 dead Engineers,  I don't know where BigDave saw them. So even if initialy this was some important detail, it was minimized during editing. 

What I say is probably the Engineers saw other variants of Deacon before, but they were created by accident, like in Prometheus, the first to do mass production of xenomorphs seems to be David.

The only alternative would be to see the other mounds, maybe there are more clues there. In the film I only saw urns and vials of black goo.

And if we look at David's lab,  at Advent and at David's drawings we see what he ment by: "  I have taken great pains to detail every step, every cell, every mutation, unfortunately none of the planet's life has been proven to be very fruitful. I had some interesting results, but was still far from perfection. With Shaw I realised there was something extraordinary in the substance reaction to the human genome. I was able to unlock new properties and tweak the organisms aggression. An instinct for survival. It took years. But I finally found my wolf."

@daliens

A lot of stuff comes from Set Props...

These are on the Internet but also Blu-Ray Extras.

Originally Alien Engineers had indicated the Engineers had Re-Engineered and Weaponized 8 Variants of the Xenomorph, but also Holloway had came across in a Cave a UN-Weaponized more Cephalopod looking Variant.

The Urns got knocked over by Fifield who was bitten by  a Nano-Scarab from within, and he Evolved into a Xeno-Hybrid with Acid Blood.

The First time we saw the Scarabs they was in the Sacrificial Bowl/Cup and Consumed a Engineer the Thousands of Scarabs then Flew off, they had Engineer DNA stored in them and ONE goes and BITES a Primate who Evolves into a Human....   Meaning the Primate becomes a Engineer Hybrid which is our Ancestors.

Therefor the Urns must contain Scarabs that have Consumed Xenomorph (or related) DNA that was passed onto Fifield and likely they used this Urns to Engineer the various forms of Xenomorph...   we CAN only assume they used the Sacrificial Scarabs on some Discovered Organism that Predated the Xenomorph to obtain its Traits to use for Technology and Bio-Weapons.

If we take this into context, then apply it to the Goo in Prometheus, then we look at the  Mural and Fresco, i think we maybe can conclude the Engineers encountered a Organism they used their Creation Tool on to Obtain DNA to then Enhance themselves and their Technology and then also to Create Bio-Weapons..

If the LV-223 Engineers are a Sub-Creation like Replicants and CANT procreate or they are Engineers who had Engineered themselves and LOST the ability to Procreate Naturally

Then coming across a Organism that Impregnates them to then Give Birth to a Life Form that is seen as Perfect or the  Potential would give Good Reason for the Experiments and Worship of the MURAL.

I think this is what was intended... but well they messed about and changed things over and over, that its a bit of a Shambles now.

Davids Experiments are in effect maybe similar to what the Engineers had done in the past.... David gives us a clue to how the Xenomorph could have been created, i feel this was the intention for Prometheus: Pandemonium if my source was correct.  But the Studio wanted a more Direct Prequel and have the Xenomorph back... so thats what we got with a slice of F-U with David Creates it, instead of Creates something similar that would give clues to HOW the Original was created.

The Theory i gave above MAY-NOT make sense to some... but if we look at the Franchise and ASK!

What Benefit would the Xenomorph have as far as for the Company?   Get Queen, collect Egg, drop Eggs off to Places we want to KILL people?

would the Xenomorph have Traits that could Evolve Mankind, if we all became Ripley 8's then we would be closer to Immortality that Weyland Wanted.

What about using some of its Aesthetics to improve Technology and Construction?

If we could HARNESS and Reproduce Spider Silk, and Spiders Exo-skeleton Body then what LIGHT-WEIGHT and Strong Materials these are compared to Plastics and Metals. Which have Pros and Cons..

That would be more useful than just use the Xenomorph for a Weapon... and so WHY not a similar reason for the Engineers experiments on some Organism they encountered?

The DNA match between engineers and humans is enough to make a quite similar xenomorph creature (bipedal) as compared to a dog (Alien 3) which would make it running around on all fours.

It’s also interesting that everything that seems to point in another direction (xenomorph being old) is ruled out as easter eggs or props meant to be for an earlier script or something. Either we look only at the films and what they show and draw conclusions from that or we take everything into account: novels, interviews, earlier scripts etc. If we look at what is shown in Prometheus, we see the whole xenomorph life cycle depicted on a wall. That’s it! We also see a deacon - which is a xenomorph creature. In my opinion (and I agree with Gavin) David is delusional. He only makes a variation of what the engineers have created or discovered long ago.

Yes, we could interpret the pile of engineers as being exposed to the pathogen and “exploded” or we could interpret it by focusing on what Milburn says (and the reference to Dallas). The other holes could be made by a xenomorph creature or they could even be made through time as the bodies decompose, and perhaps moonquakes have made rocks fall down on them. I suppose you wouldn’t say that the Space Jockey also exploded from inside because he had been exposed to the pathogen?

The movies, director and scriptwriters have made it ambiguous partly because the David-hypothesis wasn’t born when Prometheus was made. It grew from David’s development into a rebel (Fassbender’s excellent performance probably also made it a good idea to centre around him). Therefore, there are hints and references in Prometheus (such as chest holes, acid, the xenomorph life cycle on the wall, the deacon, the scream, the running engineers etc.

So, my hypothesis is that making David the creator of the xenomorph was invented after Prometheus, therefore making Prometheus ambiguous.

I think it depends on what we call a XENOMORPH

If this only refers to either the Alien Xenomorph Eggs on the Derelict or Davids  Xenomorph Eggs in Alien Covenant then the Face Hugger of these Organisms IS-NOT in that Mural.

The Mural depicts a similar Life Cycle, the Mural is SO ambiguous you could make Anything out of the shapes, but the clearest things are the Xeno/Deacon in the Middle (which looks not quite Deacon but not quite Xenomorph either)  and those TWO Face Huggers which are NOT the Traditional Face Hugger, so we cant assume what kind of Organism they would Gestate inside a Host.

The Trilobite essentially has a similar Life Cycle, only that it had not arrived from a Egg.   The Mural simply shows the Engineers had experimented with Organisms that are similar to the Xenomorph... it was open a bit for debate regarding the Xenomorph predates these, or came after these.

The Engineers are similar to Mankind that i think we can safely assume that a Engineer and Human infected with the same Face Hugger would Yield similar if not near identical Xenomorphs, apart from Size Difference.

I think the Easter Eggs are a bad idea if this is all they are as they can mislead fans... i cant quite remember who, but there was TWO people who worked on the Mural and one claimed it was merely a Tribute to HR Giger, another said the Organism in the Middle was the Bishop/Deacon.

"I suppose you wouldn’t say that the Space Jockey also exploded from inside because he had been exposed to the pathogen"

It depends how they go with the Prequels.. the idea was that it was one of the Cargo (Xenomorph Eggs) but who knows how they will show and IF they will show us WHAT happened.

The Xenomorph was a Ancient Event/Organism, that was explained as Connected to LV-223, even though clues in Prometheus were very Vague....   The idea was that the Xenomorph certainly predates the Prometheus Mission.

Then they gave the Curve-Ball, and like it or not, this was NOW the intention, despite it being a Choice that Does-Not settle with most fans...  I think while you could counter argue that we cant use this and that to argue the Xenomorph was not shown to be Ancient, but  by the same Token you cant use other things to argue that the Xenomorph Existed prior.

FACT is that it did... (prior to Alien Covenant)  but this has been changed!

FACT is this was a dumb move that simply is not the right choice as far as what made ALIEN so ALIEN.

Things are Subject to Change... and UNTIL we see David's Xenomorphs taken onto a Engineer Ship and Ends up on LV-426, then we can still keep a open mind that maybe David does-not create the Xenomorph.

I would say a Majority of Fans would hope so... and i am among them ;)

"So, my hypothesis is that making David the creator of the xenomorph was invented after Prometheus, therefore making Prometheus ambiguous."

Absolutely... while its not impossible... i think as of even 2013 the idea that David would be revealed as the Creator of the Xenomorph would be what 99.99% No He Did-Not

Ridley Scott even in 2013 had explained the event was Thousands of years ago!  We dont know what Prometheus 2 would have shown...  a source i had in Feb 2015 claimed that David would Re-Create something similar, as in either Re-Create something like the Xenomorph or Deacon.  They also claimed a 2nd Monster that David does-not create would appear.  This seems to fit with Alien Covenant only the Monsters may have appeared a bit different, and they decided to have it that David does-not Create something similar, but actually Creates it (Xenomorph).

At the moment we could ignore Ridley Scott as maybe his Symphony is not well tuned either...  if we go by the Movie Alone... then there is NO 100% Proof to suggest David had Created the Proto-Xenomorph, or that had had Re-Created a Xenomorph.

Go by the Novel and then this indicates David had NOT Created the Xenomorph on LV-426.

Go by the Advent and its ambiguous and so 50/50

Go by Ridley Scott and its indicated David creates the Xenomorph that predates the Eggs on LV-426

Everyone is entitled to Conclude what they wish... UNTIL we get to see David's Eggs ending up on LV-426 and then shown the SOS Signal comes from that Ship that becomes the basis of Special Order 937....

Then we can doubt that David created it, and it could be changed to show that he DID-NOT create it..  Fingers Crossed.

Let's see what Steven Messing,  the creator of the mural, has to say about it:

“Another set that I worked on was known as the ‘Head Room.’ This was a ceremonial room that contained hundreds of ampules beneath a giant sculpture of an Engineer’s head. Julian Caldrow did an amazing job of working out all of the details for this environment and created the set drawings. The final set was built at full scale and was incredible to walk on. I also sculpted an altar area for this set that paid homage to Giger – it is a relief sculpture hanging from the wall and has the impression of an alien form with flowing structures surrounding it. There are a lot of easter eggs in this sculpture – including several hidden Giger motifs that were not used in the original film.”

[The Engineers are] a lot about sacrifice, so in my mind there was an Engineer [in the past] who sacrificed himself to this virus and it created this horrific creature. This being, that was gonna eradicate planets, was like a parasite that would destroy the planet and then [the Engineers] could start over and rebirth it. And they kind of worshipped it and you see this relief sculpture where it’s almost a religious sculpture.”

He was a little confused, the Engineer who sacrificed himself did not create any horrific creature. But it is good to note that the virus predates the horrific creature.

And the right conclusion from Carlos Huante, a free-for-all for the design:

"“There were too many hands in the pie after it left me. It was likely that everyone was trying to stick their hands in. Ridley was surrounded by everybody’s opinions and the rules he and I created together got drowned out so they get lost. There was no more connection between anything, everything got thrown out and it was a free-for-all for the design.”

in their mind it was ok to fill the room with easter eggs.

[The Engineers are] a lot about sacrifice, so in my mind there was an Engineer [in the past] who sacrificed himself to this virus and it created this horrific creature. This being, that was gonna eradicate planets, was like a parasite that would destroy the planet and then [the Engineers] could start over and rebirth it. And they kind of worshipped it and you see this relief sculpture where it’s almost a religious sculpture.”

WOW! Cool.

I agree with your thoughts, BigDave. I ponder about the fact that we see different variations of “the xenomorph”. It takes traits from its host and eventually wipes out competitors (which is the way evolution works) as in “The Thing”. The question is what the species (if it is a species) originally looked like? What is its real appearance? The X?

The same goes for if the engineers created it through the black goo. It appears in different shapes depending on the situation, host, and also probably how far the pathogen has been developed? It might have taken the engineers millions of years to develop?

The trilobite can also have been developed through an egg, namely Shaw’s, by the way. This would then also show the perpetuity of “the xenomorph” life cycle.

dalien: To me, an easter egg is something almost hidden in the background which you might find if you look closely. It is therefore not important for the story. In Prometheus, the camera is focusing in on the altar and the mural and Holloway is studying it. The “xenomorph” creature is clearly meant to be seen (hinting at Alien) but the eggs and facehuggers would probably be hard to detect in the cinema.

This is a ceremonial room and on the altar, there was supposed to be a cup (like the one the sacrificial engineer at the beginning of Prometheus, drank from). The one drinking from the cup would either get some of the traits from the “god” on the wall (physical strength, long life perhaps) or turn into (mutate) into the “xenomorph”.

According to the quote by Messing the engineers created the xenomorph, long before David was even “born”, for the purpose of wiping out unwanted life on worlds they had seeded. The quotation at the end by Huante shows the sad aspect of production falling apart which is clearly seen in the ambiguity in Prometheus, even more confused in Alien: Covenant.

Let's be honest here,

Each of us has our own beliefs as to whether or not David created the Xenomorph, and being the rabid fans we are can pull up multiple pieces of evidence to support our case. Yes, that is essentially the whole point of a debate, but in all honesty, we could do this forever; bouncing facts back and forth in support of or against Chli's opening post. The truth is there is no truth - the Alien franchise, is narratively and in terms of continuity a convoluted mess of mystery, inference, intent, contradiction, and ambiguity, that could with the next movie be taken in any direction; as Alien: Covenant proved.

I personally feel a bit way to debate this topic, rather than going round in circles with endless facts, would be to state our belief and the reason why we believe what we believe, not in terms of evidence but more in terms of what purpose it would serve the franchise.

For example, I prefer to believe that David did not create the Alien and that it was created by another party because to make David the creatures creator makes us the center of the universe in a franchise called "Alien".

For me, the alien has always carried with it three connotations...

#1 - One of the overwhelming dark, empty, remorseless nature of space.

#2 - One of the cycles of birth, death, rebirth, and creation.

#3 - And one of fear of the dark, the unknown and the unseen.

To me, David being the creator of the Alien negates the connotations #1 and #3, while taking the franchise away from Dan O'Bannon and H. R. Giger's vision.

Do not get me wrong, I am not a supporter of David being the creator of xenomorph. Until recently I believed that David only created his own variant of xenomorph by reverse engineering the Engineers xenomorph. So I accepted everything that backed up this theory. This was after Covenant, because after Prometheus I could not even imagine that David could play such a role.

It was only after I discovered the Giler script for Alien when I started to consider this possibility, because, as BigDave put it, "the Red Cylinder Draft is basically the ALIEN we got" save for the alien origin of the Pilot, derelict and the beast.

With the route taken by Covenant we kind of return to Giler script, where the beast is a bioweapon produced by the Company and the pilot is humanoid (still alien, though, but maybe it will be revealed that it belongs to an advanced ancient civilization that left the Earth millennia ago - I have a theory that the planet seeded at the beginning of Prometheus is planet 4, because of the sculptured heads on the mountains from planet 4).

So I don't try to argue or impose my theories, I just want to understand what is going on, so I share my thoughts here with you.

Under these circumstances they can tell us next that the derelict and the Space Jockey are not thousands of years old, but they look like that due to harsh environment from LV426.

I wonder now if this was the plan even from the time of Prometheus. Remember the discoid ship that brought the sacrificing Engineer and that was not seen afterwards? Could be a ship of an advanced civilization from Earth that was terraforming,  building better worlds, belonging to an ancient equivalent of Weyland-Yutani. Ridley Scott said is not necessarily the Earth that was seeded, it could be any planet. 

The Engineers are not Gods  The Engineers from planet 4 are the originals. The Engineers returned to Earth in our antiquity and tried to influence the ancient humans in the right direction. They pointed to the sky showing their new home, to LV223 said Prometheus, but planet 4 was not far away, so that could be accepted as a misunderstanding by our ancestors or as a defense strategy, if you come this far go to our military outpost so we can stop you - planet 4 is "camouflaged" and undetectable by future Earth scanners.  Ridley Scott wanted to tell another story using the Alien universe as a canvas.

"I always think about how often we attribute what has happened to either our invention or memory. A lot of ideas evolve from past histories, but when you look so far back, you wonder, Really? Is there really a connection there?” (Ridley Scott)

Answering to a question if Jesus Christ might have been "alien" Ridley Scott replied, explaining as well why they tried to wipe out the Earth:

"We definitely did, and then we thought it was a little too on the nose. But if you look at it as an “our children are misbehaving down there” scenario, there are moments where it looks like we’ve gone out of control, running around with armor and skirts, which of course would be the Roman Empire. And they were given a long run. A thousand years before their disintegration actually started to happen. And you can say, “Lets’ send down one more of our emissaries to see if he can stop it. Guess what? They crucified him. "

What do you think of this theory?

Are we alone in the universe?

Chli:

“I think Gavin has a good point when he says that the Alien Universe would shrink and become less frightening and less open if the Engineers engineered the xenomorph.“ (20190417)

What if they make the Engineers scary as F and let the Xeno be something that they found and developed from there? If that was well done and we do not get the whole explanation of how the Xeno came to be like only showing us A and D in a chain of A-B-C-D then it could work to me at least because then there is some mystery left but that no one should touch that so there is something to debate because that is some of the fun of it. This could be a possibility but you need good writers. What if we are given clues maybe less vague than they were in Prometheus and leave a lot of it untold? This is something that I can accept, more so than the idea of David creating it. I don’t think that this would contradict your idea of universes with different creatures and so on, I actually think that your suggestion of many systems seems interesting.

As far as the expanded universe is concerned I can not comment since I don’t really care about that. I am an Alien-movie guy not an alien-verse (things that are not movies) kind of person that likes to dig deep into things that are not about the movies.

“I don’t see the xenomorphs as intelligent enough to have an abstract agenda, more like ants.”

Maybe their goal is to reproduce and survive, as simple as that? I have don’t see them as overly intelligent life-forms although with some intelligence but perhaps that is scary enough.

BD:

“i have concerns if the Franchise Expands by giving us this Xenomorph that Spreads itself across the Galaxy, and in return we just diminish the Engineers and what the Prequels had opened up.”

I am not so sure if that would need to be the case though. You have often compared the Xeno to WMD’s, what if that is like an WMD that gets out of control or like a bacteria that has been grown for a purpose that spreads and infects things. This could be fitting in way and also it is something that a foreign life-form (Engineers?) have made that is not created by something that the humans created (androids), I would be more accepting to that compared to David being the creator of the monster.

As far as the Engineers are concerned right now it is more about David so if that would tear down the David creating it thing and make it more alien again then I am for it. It could spread to some places that would also be better because I think that there might be other places that the Engineers have seeded with life where it didn’t get right so they have used warfare on that also. Who is to say that earth is the only place? Maybe they have succeeded to keep those other worlds in check?

Sure it could be the way that you are concerned about but it doesn’t have to be the case though.

“I think to downgrade the Engineers/Space Jockey and to Emphasis the Franchise on Queens and Eggs is going to be a bit limiting...”

Yeah and I also wish that they would have covered the Engineers more but I would prefer it being about the Engineers and how they are related to the Xenos than about David. What you need I think is a better connection between those two, something that Prometheus failed to do no matter who is to blame for it. If we get a movie that is more about the Engineers and how the Xenos/monsters are connected to them fine but no more robot movies though.

Thoughts_Dreams

I am an Alien-movie guy not an alien-verse (things that are not movies) kind of person that likes to dig deep into things that are not about the movies.

However, I recommend you read the book "The Cold Forge". It's the masterpiece!

Leto: I have heard about it at a podcast (Perfect organism podcast) but I have not read it. I try to keep an open mind to things like that so thanks.

"Each of us has our own beliefs as to whether or not David created the Xenomorph"

Certainly and some of us are not quite giving our beliefs, but pointing out what seems to be indicated, i would say our beliefs for those who point out the potential that David created the Xenomorph is not our personal wish... i would say many of us are suspending our belief.. because what a BAD idea it was ;)

You continue with this... "because to make David the creatures creator makes us the center of the universe in a franchise called "Alien"."

Again i would say most would agree with this... the David Creates it, Leaves it for the Company to come along and Obtain it, combined with the Engineers/Engineers City on Planet 4, take the Franchise so FAR away from what was ALIEN about that WHOLE scene of the  Derelict and its Contents!

"I have a theory that the planet seeded at the beginning of Prometheus is planet 4, because of the sculptured heads on the mountains from planet 4"

Certainly.... but if i comment in this.. well my Keyboard would break ;)

I think Movies can Change... and the Plots are changed, then only Concrete stuff shown Chronologically cant really be changed... everything else is Fair Game.

So the Prequels by their Vague Nature is Ripe for the Pickings....

For instance...... HOW does the Sacrificial Scene 100% prove this is how Mankind was created? or that it was on Earth?    The Engineers are Genetic Gardeners, they do Predate us (we can assume) and their DNA is similar!

Planet 4 Engineers look different to Prometheus ones... slightly.  The Sacrificial Scene could have taken place on Planet 4 to Create those beings on Planet 4, and  Mankind then came from them..... 

Ridley Scott said those Planet 4 Engineers are the ORIGINALS.... so this means the LV-223 are NOT the Originals and the Planet 4 Engineers Predate them...

However... the Sacrificial Engineer looks more like the LV-223 Engineers than Planet 4, so does that mean the Planet 4 Engineers Predate the Sacrificial Engineer?

LV-223 Engineers are a match to us.... but then we could be a match to the Planet 4 Engineers too, there is NO reason that the Planet 4 Engineers are our Ancestors, somehow and that the Prometheus Engineers had Evolved or Upgraded themselves to become what they was... while still having same DNA they Augmented their Genomes.

There is NEVER given any Date for the Sacrificial Scene or Location as far as if you ONLY watch the Movie and IGNORE everything else....   So if we look at this, then the Scene does-not have to be Earth, it could be another Earth-like World, and it does-not have to be Hundreds/Tens Thousands of Years ago! (Yet Older)

We just see a Engineer (looks more like the LV-223 Engineers who are predated by the Planet 4 ones if we accept what RS said).  He consumes the Goo (if we accept Alien Covenants explanation well Davids).  His Body Breaks down, and then his DNA Falls Apart and turns Black and then Reforms... and NEW Life begins (we only see the Basic Cells).

Look at Davids Comments "sometimes to create one must first destroy" and the Murals/Frescos in a different light, and what we see the Black Goo do...

Then we could then consider the Sacrificial Scene was a Later Version Engineer who Sacrificed himself, with the Black Goo to Create Horrors related to the Substance.

We could then assume that the Engineers or some had came across or stolen the Black Goo or some other way they obtained it, and it was used to Create Such Horrors as we see in terms of Prometheus and Alien Covenant... but also they could have used it to UPGRADE themselves too.  Or they came across something they used the Goo on, to attempt to Evolve themselves, and this worked, but as a Off-Shoot one experiment Produces something Else and the Engineers are like WOW! and they Worship this, and they use the Goo/This as the Basis to Evolve Worlds because they Worshiped the Perfection they saw in this..

So this shows that by taking what we see ALONE in the Movies and Cherry Pick certain things as we choose and apply it to the Movies we can MUSTER up another Plot, that could then sound Plausible.

The Plot i mention would make more sense if those Prometheus Engineers are a Creation the Planet 4 Engineers made for a similar purpose that the Tyrell Corp had Produced Replicants...    Prometheus Engineers are Augmented with the use of Something, in Hindsight the Playing with FIRE had lead to the Horrors on LV-223 and Rebellion of those LV-223 Engineers... or just that the Horrors Created by Augmenting themselves too much.

We dont even have to have the Engineers Create those LV-223 beings, they could be shown that some Engineers had Augmented themselves, for a purpose, but then they became so obsessed with this that they took it to the NEXT stage and then become obsessed with that, and Worship it.

Depending what we use for our ideas, and wants, can alter what we get...  Its ONLY if you go by what say Ridley Scott says that we are then put on a Certain Track... but then RS ideas at one time, change to something else at another time too.

"What do you think of this theory?

Are we alone in the universe?"

Some interesting comments.... i will concentrate on this one above though....    We have Humans on Earth, and Engineers on Planet 4 who also had been to LV-223

I think the Scope was BEYOND that, there could be Hundreds, Thousands of Worlds the Engineers had explored, and also how many other Humanoids had they created?  Potential is HUGE... by Virtue of Engineer Ships having Maps on their Navigation Systems to other Galaxies.

"Who is to say that earth is the only place? Maybe they have succeeded to keep those other worlds in check?"

Another quote that fits with what i am saying... 

Lets look at GOD... he created Mankind, but he also unleashed a lot of WHOOP-ASS for when we have FAILED to keep in Check!   If GOD exists and he created the Earth so Easy.... then why would he just not go "you know what, i am done, i will Destroy the Earth to a Grains of Sand and just Create another Earth and Start Again"

But he had Saved Mankind via Noah during the Flood...

If we take that in context to the Engineers, and we assume they are the Gods, well our Creators, then they DID-NOT create us as Easy as GOD did....  a Lot of Time and Effort must have gone into our Creation...  

So when we start to miss behave and they send Emissaries and we still dont get back in Check!  Then WHY would they Destroy us... because its Knowledge that is WHY we are not kept in Check... The Free-Will of David is what makes him NOT in Check compared to Walter.

How do you keep in Check David Models?  Create New.. or just Replace the AI/Brain or Programing ;)

GOD chose Noah because he saw him as Righteous and Just, and that Noah would be as Adam was (before Adam was led astray by Eve, More to it than that but lets pass that) by that Noah would be Loyal to GOD and his Ways...

So Mankind was given a New Start, where we could then be taught via Noah the Will and Ways that GOD intended... (but we soon went back to our old ways).

My point?  It makes sense for the Engineers to take some Humans or Children to another Place to Raise again and hope this time they dont become Corrupt because every Child is Born Innocent, and they become what they do by how they are Raised and Knowledge they are given.

So it would make sense for the Engineers to take some of Mankind (Children) away to then allow for a NEW Eden on another place, rather than Destroy us all!  The Logical ONLY ways they would NOT do this would be.

They already had done it in the past and Populated Mankind on many Worlds.... prior to our FALL on Earth in the Eyes of the Engineers.

Mankind had came from another Place and the Earth was just ONE place we had been taken to. 

So yes the potential is there for Many Human Worlds, or Similar Races, and we could ponder that maybe some of them Kept in Check!

This is exactly what i was to cover in WHERE it was David and Dr Shaw end up... which was Many Thousands of Light Years from Earth... my ideas for my Prometheus 3 would had shown a World with Engineers and Humans in Harmony but the Arrival of Dr Shaw and David poses problems for the Engineers due to what the other Humans had NOT been told about us or the Engineers.

This kind of Plot, is not FAR off what Raised by Wolves could be about, the ideas i mentioned above fit that Plot, and potentially could be similar to "what kind of world" David would Create!  He Hated Mankind due to how we are, but if he could Evolve those Embryos he could have his own Humanity who will be KIND to him.

Such Plots are a Distraction to what most fans would want the Franchise to be about, but we had to consider Prometheus was to STEER away from ALIEN...

I think in context to the comments i had take from daliens and Thoughts_Dreams  then YES the potential for their being more than THREE Worlds known to the Engineers, and ONE world for Humans is GREAT..

Many Worlds, Many Races, include those above the Engineers, but also Many Horrors too.

Such Scope... that i feel Alien Covenant had SHRUNK and the Alien Franchise is limited, if its just about Eggs and Weyland-Yutani you have to expand beyond that Eventually and Prometheus was a Good Starting Point.

The problem with Ridley's words, quotes, interviews, revelations, explanations, etc... - they are not on the screen. Everything that said Ridley, is not on the screen. So, no matter how much you want it - his words are not part of a canon or a lore of Alien-verse.

Now, a very small number of people search and read all these interviews. And these interviews can give completely different conclusions than what is shown on the screen. Ridley's words is not an addons to lore of the prequels, but completely another plot. The great Red Herring - what is this? The film or the interview?

Imagine: who after 30 years will look for all these interviews? Can the film exist without these interviews? Can it be independent?