David Did Not Create the Xenomorph (Part 2)

"Alien is Alpha and Omega of this franchise and all movies must have xenomorphs."

I think it depends how its handled, a lot of Damage has been dealt to the Xenomorph, that has diminished it...  I felt that the Space Jockey Race or introduction to something more ALIEN above them is where we need to go!

But then GAVIN had put a detailed explanation to how to Elevate the Xenomorph in this TOPIC which i added a few things to, and i think YES... if something is Changed and done Right then you can Breath a New Lease of LIFE into the Xenomorph and the Tried/Tested (if not Tired) Formula.

@Gavin

Certainly can buy your reply... your turning me to the DARK (Xeno) Side lol  The Theory could Elevate the Xenomorph, especially maybe with some of the Tweaks i indicate in your other Reply HERE and also expand and carry with it the whole Prometheus Plot too.

A lot of good comments here, very interesting.  And I know people do not want to hear this, but you are all just making excuses for crappy film making by Ridley. 

I do not think he even watched his own movies.

The Space Jockey...IT IS NOT A SUIT!  Just look at it.  There is no way it is a suit, and there is no way it was originally intended to be a suit.  Writers (or Ridley) just pulled that out of their asses.

I liked Prometheus, not many in my circle did.  I was pissed there were no Aliens (I refuse to call them Xenomorphs).  But there were hints of it so I was ok with it.  If you take the fingers off a facehugger it looks EXACTLY like a Hammerpede.  The Deacon was just stupid since you already had a Dead "fossilized" Engineer with a small "bones bent outwards", and not his entire body exploded.  WATCH YOUR OWN MOVIES RIDLEY.

I loved Covenant, but the more I watch and the more I think about it, the more I hate it.  I like this topic because having David be the creator of the Alien is just plane stupid.  Unless it was part of the story (which I doubt) taking the mechanical out of a Bio-mechanical creature...screw you Ridley.

Prometheus was Ridley PURPOSELY NOT including the Alien out of spite and he broke timelines and filled holes just so he could. Hence the Deacon and "Engineer suits". 

Covenant was equally bad because it was Ridley saying "FINE, I'll put the alien back in" but the story was already screwed up so Covenant was written to fill those holes.  He is even quoted as saying "If you want Aliens, I'll give you god damn Aliens" 

Ridleys own ego destroyed the whole thing.  

@ Kage,

I agree with your sentiment, that Scott does not have the franchises best interest at heart. as for the Space Jockey I believe it can be a suit, but in no way do I believe that within that suit is an Engineer, instead imagine a combination of the following two images...

I have previously postulated that the being inside the Space Jockey suit was akin to the second image, evoking Lovecraftian elements into the Alien franchise. However, I now prefer the following - a tall humanoid alien creature whose head looks like the top image (a human proportioned alien-esque dome), but instead of the Aliens tongue-with-teeth inside the creatures mouth, which maybe could open in a similar way to Blade 2's Nomak (pictured below), is a mass of tentacles as per the aforementioned second Lovecraftian image.

"The Space Jockey...IT IS NOT A SUIT!  Just look at it.  There is no way it is a suit, and there is no way it was originally intended to be a suit.  Writers (or Ridley) just pulled that out of their asses."

Well if its a Skeleton its a Pretty Cartoon Looking one!

Above is the Concept work for the Space Jockey and the Actual Space Jockey from the Movie.  

The Head/Face (A) is what looks like a a Skull especially the Eyes/Mouth on the Actual Movie Prop, but this Skull's is Directly connected to the Chair, just as the Concept Work which is more clearer.

The Body/Rib-cage (B) does look Skeletal on both Concept and Prop.

The Arms (C) do-not look like a Typical Skeleton, even if we look at the Hands and Shoulders and the Arm is Connected to the Chair and looks more like something Synthetic rather than a Skeleton.

The Snorkel (D) does not look Biological on the Concept, but it would pass as such on the Prop, but other shots of the Space Jockey do show it to have some Piping look to it.

Above is 3 Face Huger Concepts, with HR Gigers Mural intended for Alien, and you can not the similarities with the Suits, these also are similar to the Space Jockey (previous Concept posted).   This indicates the Space Jockey was envisioned as a Suit, but also its occupants are BALD Humanoids.  These Predate any Production on ALIEN.

I will say that their are some Differences in Size and Aesthetics to the Derelict/Space Jockey and Juggernaught/Engineers which could allow for us to reveal the Space Jockey and Derelict as things the Engineers had Re-Engineered/Stolen..

I know people were Disappointed with the Engineers as the Space Jockey, despite them appearing in Concept Work for ALIEN.  But it leaves it open to explore the Original Space Jockey Race as either.

1) A Not-So Human looking Race in a Space Suit (as Gavin had indicated)

2) A Totally Bio-Mechanical Being like the Xenomorph, by that i will refer you to this image (especially the Body).

@Gavin

I would certainly welcome something more ALIEN than the Engineers as the 15ft Space Jockey, certainly the Proportions are not the same as the Engineer suits either.

So yeah under the Mask we could get quite Adventurous, or even have the Entire thing a Bio-Mechanical Species.

@kage

Welcome aboard, and i dont intend to be disrespectful here, so please bare with me ;)

I think a lot of confusion came from Prometheus and at HOW it connects with ALIEN, and indeed some were Disappointed with the Deacon and thought so HOW does this relate to the Xenomorph.. its not helped by comments by RS and Lindeloff when they suggest this is the Precursor to the Xenomorph.

What is intended to be shown is that Dr Shaws, Deacon is connected to the Mural Deacon, its just a alternative version, but something similar had been experimented on and Created on LV-223 Thousands of Years ago... that a Few Hundred Years later had lead to the Xenomorph. (RS had confirmed this to a degree, as he stated the Xeno was connected to LV-223, and the Derelict/Space Jockey event happened within a Few Hundred Years of the Outbreak 2000 years ago on LV-223, and that something EVOLVED in the Cargo Hold... when consider that they also said the Deacon was a Predecessor so to speak to the Xenomorph, this indicates the Xenomorph came some 200 or so years after the Outbreak on LV-223 that killed most of the Engineers Off.

A thing to remember is the STUDIO had decided that the whole Engineers Plot was more interesting and NEW and we had seen the Xenomorph over and over, and maybe some Mystery should be kept... so they got in Damon Lindeloff to Pen a New Draft, which then RS had agreed that maybe leaving the Xenomorph a Mystery and going for something else would allow the Prequels to go off on a different Tangent and NOT connect to ALIEN

Likewise it was the STUDIO that had persuaded RS and his Writing Team to change Prometheus 2 to be what we got in Alien Covenant which was a Direct Prequel Route to give Fans Answers and Xenomorphs, this actually is a direction that RS appears to NOT have been a Fan of.

Although we should all throw stones at Ridley Scott because it appears he was the prime reason for the David Created it Plot Change...

Prior to that Ridley Scott just felt the Franchise could and should expand Beyond the Xenomorph which was merely a Ancient Bio-Weapon and once you showed that and HOW/WHEN it got on the Derelict... its a case of whats NEXT?

More Queens, Eggs and Xenomorphs? so he was thinking the Engineers/Space Jockey were the Bigger Picture.

we had seen the Xenomorph over and over, and maybe some Mystery should be kept...

I think, this is the main mistake. Alien had an unintended mystery. But Prometheus had mystery only for mystery. Ridley cut all cool scenes only for mystery: elder engineers (better than lone Engineer), Engineer speak (great), and Engineer in Vickers pod (it should be in movie). And we meet original Engineers in Covenant and... meh?

Although we should all throw stones at Ridley Scott because it appears he was the prime reason for the David Created it Plot Change...

I don't think so. It may be Giler's ideas.

-----------

About Space Jockey. Giger called him as The Pilot. And we all know how looks pilot masks.

It's a helmet - no doubt.

@Leto

Indeed.... nice analogy of the Pilot Helmets ;)  I shared the same kinds of images to make the same point when Prometheus was out ;)

Regarding the Ridley Stones comment it was tongue in cheek, while he seemed to like the idea, indeed i dont think this was his Intention in 2011-2013, and who knows if others behind the scenes had came up with that U-Turn, such as Giler and Hill... so good point.

Regarding the EDIT of Prometheus....

Those Scenes Gave a lot away as far as the Agenda of the Space Jockey Race/Engineers.... Ridley Scott said he felt the Elders gave away a bit of Mystery, we can speculate he may have used that as the reason, or he may have been Disappointed in how they came across.

The Extended Dialog was cut due to Pacing... so he claimed.

The Extended Engineer Scene vs Dr Shaw, he asked for a Re-shoot as he felt that it made the Engineer appear to be weaker than intended... as Dr Shaw put up a Good Fight, when maybe she should have been SQUASHED like a Bug!

However the Scenes that are CUT paints a picture of a Interest in Dr Shaw, he could have killed her easy, it appeared this was not is Intention... well not as far as to just GO Postal!

Once they decided to Re-shoot the Engineer already had his Face Burn which happened during his Fight with the Trilobite (likely from Acid).... so by Virtue of this Re-Shoot and NOT having to spend time to Re-do the Make Up...  this meant other Scenes had to be CUT and not Edited down.

some of these Scenes gave some Insight into the Engineers, that made them to NOT appear as just Angry Aggressive SOB's

The Status Quo of the Engineers was Genetic Space Gardeners... and in the Drafts, it was indicated this Race had became Sterile... due to Engineering themselves a certain way.

This could be a Good Reason to Create Mankind.

Which i then speculated a few times, could they have intended to have obtained a FEMALE that they then could Procreate with.... this could maybe explain a certain Interest in Dr Shaw by the Engineer.  But then again he soon took care of FORD!

Here’s a quotation from “Advent” which suggests that the engineers created the xenomorph (the wolf) through “sacrifice” (murder) of engineers or humans. Later on, however, they abandon this horrible ritual and become the more simple and peace-loving engineers we see on Planet 4 - who David detests and exterminates.

“You wouldn’t believe the secrets I have unlocked. There was so much potential on this world. Wasted by Gods that feared their own might. They convinced themselves that sacrifice cleansed them of their sins. But in the end, they were like me. Creators. Beings that understood you must give life both to the wolf, and the lamb. But then they tried to banish the wolf, And undo their creation. So I took their secrets for myself.”

@ chli,

That quote is unfortunately so ambiguous it can be interpreted in many ways.

"Sacrifice cleansed them of their sins"...

# They sacrificed themselves to give birth to their god; the Xenomorph, thus cleansing themselves of any perceived sin in life, or

# They sacrificed themselves to create life (Prometheus opening scene) instead of death (weaponized black goo) thus cleansing their sins of having once created said death, or

#The Engineers on LV-223 sacrificed themselves by instigating the breakout 2000 years ago, to cleanse themselves of weaponizing the Xenomorph that was to be used against Earth.

"Banish the wolf, and undo their creation"...

# Abandon their weaponization of the black goo turning it into the substance the sacrificial Engineer consumed, or

 # Abandon the Xenomorph and reduce it to its core elements; the black goo

There could be other interpretations, but I think you get my point. Remember, one's truth is dictated by one's point of view.

@daliens,

Sorry forgot about this one.

"if the vessel was so advanced, why did she still need a primitive human as pilot, especially if the pilot was not the father or the mother of the offsprings? We have autonomous vehicles today and our space missions are without pilots."

Simple answer - control. If the Juggernauts are indeed sentient and/or living vessels as many of us believe, then would they trust such an autonomous vessel with the task of transporting the last remnants of your race, or the universes deadliest biological weapon. Most autonomous drones in use today, of which space missions could also be included are used for observation and the collection of data. However, despite that Predator Drones could be autonomously controlled they are still remote piloted by human pilots.

On the subject of whether or not the Space Jockey is a suit or a skeleton. If it is the latter we are pretty restricted to what Dark Horse comics called the Mala'kak...

However, if what we saw is, in fact, a suit, what is within can be almost anything. Which from a creative standpoint is much more interesting.

"You wouldn’t believe the secrets I have unlocked."

David Discovers the Potential of the Black Goo, or what it was once used for.

"here was so much potential on this world, Wasted by Gods that feared their own might."

David realizes the Various Life forms on Planet 4, could have had the potential to be greater if the Engineers used the Black Goo/Experiments from LV-223

"They convinced themselves that sacrifice cleansed them of their sins. But in the end, they were like me. Creators"

This is tricky, it could indicate a reason for the Sacrifice to Create Mankind as seen as a Redemption of Sin, or that the Sacrifice to Host a Organism would Redeem them, in the Creation of something NEW.

"Beings that understood you must give life both to the wolf, and the lamb"

This Wolf could refer to the Black Goo, a Organism Related to/from the Black Goo.  The Lamb could refer to themselves or Creations they would use to Sacrifice to the Black Goo/Organism.

"But then they tried to banish the wolf, And undo their creation. So I took their secrets for myself.”

We again have to wonder what is the Wolf?  We could assume the Xenomorph or Similar, but it could mean the Black Goo (and Organisms it could create) it could mean the LV-223 Engineers or even Mankind.

So its has Gavin said, this is so ambiguous, we have to look at it depending if we are looking at Davids Agenda as preserved in Alien Covenant, the Engineers in Prometheus.

Or Ridley Scotts comments..

I would assume the Engineers had discovered something that allowed them to Evolve themselves, and be used for their Technology, then something was Created from this which they Regretted and decided to abandon.

Ridley Scott does still refer to the Engineers as Gardeners of Space i think unlocking exactly what they do in regards of these Space Gardeners is the BIG KEY point which i think any clues would help Greatly but this remains one of those Unanswered Questions.

So a lot also has to do with WHAT exactly was the Purpose of the Sacrificial Scene in Prometheus (Create Life on Earth, to show how they Seed Life on all Worlds, or was this the Creation of those LV-223 Engineers).

So its determining WHEN the Sacrificial Goo Scene was, and then HOW-LONG before or after did they have all this Bio-Mechanical Technology and those LV-223 Experiments.

The Sacrificial Scene IF the same happened on Earth would mean this was Many Millions of Years ago we can assume (Even over a Billion).

Ridley Scott claimed those Planet 4 Engineers are the Originals, and so do they Predate ONLY the LV-223 Engineers? or the Sacrificial Engineer too?

The earliest Cave Map to LV-223 was 35'000 years ago, had those Engineers been Creating those Experiments for that long or greater, and then WHY wait 33'000 years before attempting and failing to unleash the Black Goo on Earth?

I think the Franchise is so Ambiguous that i think we cant rule out or accept any theory really...

Maybe Alien Covenants sequel would give us the Answers.. if the Xenomorph is David's Wolf.... then WHAT are his Lambs.... the Covenant Crew?  Or any Engineered Humans that he would Create for himself.

This would depend on WHY those LV-223 Experiments?  Ridely Scott and the Alien Engineers draft seemed to indicate they was Biological Warfare to use against Rebellious Creations and for Protection against such Creations.

But there is so much Contradicting Stuff with the Prequels and Comments by Ridley Scott that its maybe impossible to Gauge what the HELL is going on.

So its Fun to Speculate!

Ridley Scott does still refer to the Engineers as Gardeners of Space i think unlocking exactly what they do in regards of these Space Gardeners is the BIG KEY point which i think any clues would help Greatly but this remains one of those Unanswered Questions.

This. The Main problems with prequels - they gives keys, but... as we all know - the keys are absolutely useless without the keyhole. And, as we all know, FOR THE GREAT MYSTERY Ridley didn't give any keyhole.

@ Leto,

This is, in part, the fault of Damon Lindelof and why he was brought on to rewrite Prometheus - to give the movie what he and J. J. Abrams call the "Mystery Box" effect, a technique they also famously used in Lost... that worked out well for Damon (-sarcasm-)

@ BigDave,

Ridley Scott's comments that the Planet 4 Engineers predate the LV-223 engineers makes sense and fits in with my deduction of the clues we have seen thus far of the Engineers. I have mentioned repeatedly my belief that the Engineers are merely primitive humans, so let me elaborate. First my theory/deductions...

Many thousands of years ago a Juggernaut either landed on Earth or was discovered on Earth by Paleolithic/Neolithic humans who were then taken to Planet 4 and offered paradise in return for continuing the work of the fallen Space Jockey on LV-426, to spread the Xenomorph; the humans accepted. The humans were evolved to their pinnacle form, becoming Engineers and a few were chosen/blessed and granted bio-mechanical augmentations that would allow them to interface with the Juggernauts and fulfill their part of the deal.

Fearing/respecting the Xenomorph the Engineers on Planet 4 devised a method of weaponizing the bioweapon (in a bid to protect the augmented Engineers), following which the augmented Engineers then gathered eggs from the ill-fated derelict Juggernaut on LV-426, transported them to LV-223 and began weaponization of the Xenomorph eggs, likely unleashing them on other worlds that were full of life. Periodically the (augmented) LV-223 Engineers would return to Earth to add to their numbers on Planet 4 and to sacrifice a chosen few to their weapon, testing it.

In time, the Engineers on Planet 4, having developed a civilized society (equivalent to bronze age humans, suggesting their artificial evolution was purposefully restricted to keep them primitive) began to view the part of the deal they had made with trepidation, eventually devising a way to alter the weaponized Xenomorph black goo into a catalyst capable of creating new life, rather than spreading the instrument of the death (the Xenomorph). With the LV-223 Engineers likely needing to be periodically draughted (accidents inevitably happen), Engineers that were more recently chosen to receive bio-mechanical augmentation would likely have been less devout than longer serving LV-223 Engineers in regard to spreading the Xenomorph.

Thus when the Juggernauts/Space Jockeys ordered Earth to be the next target for the weaponized Xenomorph, and with Earth being the Engineers ancestral homeworld the newly drafted LV-223 Engineers sacrificed their lives by instigating an outbreak of the weaponized Xenomorph on LV-223, believing the outbreak would decimate all of LV-223 Engineers.

2000 years later one of the long-serving LV-223 Engineers is awoken by his ancestral kindred; humans. Angry at the Engineers that instigated the outbreak for their heresy, upon realizing he had survived said outbreak and likely fearful of the Juggernauts/Space Jockeys, the last LV-223 Engineer hastily proceeded to carry out the order he had received 2000 years prior.

... sounds fanciful right, but there is evidence in Prometheus and Alien: Covenant that supports it all...

# Shaw and Fords sample taken from the decapitated Engineer shows that the Engineer was human, with Shaw later clarifying that said Engineers DNA predates our own.

# The earliest star map discovered by Shaw and Holloway was that discovered on the Isle of Skye, which was at least 38,000 years old (Paleolithic).

# The Engineers language is Proto-Indo-European, a human language developed and used on Earth 4700 years ago (Late Neolithic).

# With the exception of the Juggernauts and the biomechanical augmentations of the LV-223 Engineers, the Engineers repeatedly use Neolithic and Bronze Age technology - wooden flute, woolen cloaks, pottery bowl, pottery urns, the Engineer City, Planet 4 Engineer attire, etc.

# The decapitated Engineer, and his companions (as shown by the holographic recording in the LV-223 dome) were running to the source of the outbreak wearing their spacesuits/armor.

# The last ordered target for the black goo urns was Earth, this order was given at the time of, or prior to the outbreak that wiped out all but the last LV-223 Engineer.

# The Sacrificial Engineer was not an LV-223 Engineer but a planet 4 Engineer, as were the (deleted) engineers that originally featured in that scene.

# Advent relates that the Planet 4 Engineers renounced the Xenomorph, and discontinued their studies into the creature and its weaponization.

# The urns and glass vials used to transport and weaponize the black goo are both primitive technologies.

...Reportedly the substance consumed by the Sacrificial Engineer in Prometheus' opening scene is the same as that seen throughout Prometheus. The latter contaminates whatever it infects with genetic traits of the Xenomorph (Hammerpedes acidic blood, Fifield's originally intended mutation, Holloways uber-Facehugger child), which would mean the Sacrificial Engineer would have been seeding a planet of Xenomorphs, unless said scene occurred after the Planet 4 Engineers reverse engineered the black goo to create new life. Which aligns with the theory that Engineers are primitive humans and not the creators of life on Earth. 

Also, Engineers being a few millennia old slaves sounds more plausible than being billions of years old creators capable of seeding life that will, billions of years later evolve to have a genetic match.

I know BigDave will remind us of Scott's statement of the Space Jockeys being space gardeners. But compare the perception of a gardener from the perspective of a flower, and that of a weed - to a flower a gardener is a giving god with the promise of new life, to a weed a gardener is the harbinger of death and destruction. A weed is a plant just like a flower, but to the gardener, a weed is less desirable than a flower because of their ability to propagate unchecked without the need of the gardener. To the Space Jockey's the Xenomorph is the flower, all other life are weeds.

Finally, some have mentioned that the Humans on planet 4 look more human than both the LV-223 Engineers and the Sacrificial Engineer. From a production standpoint applying and maintaining the level of prosthetics used for the LV-223/Sacrificial Engineers on a cast of 100+ extras would have been a logistical nightmare, thus the makeup effects used were simplified. With a budget of $111 million, Scott could have used CGI to augment the aforementioned actors to match the LV-223/Sacrificial Engineers, but instead wasted the money on the needlessly homo-erotic flute scene.

A weed is a plant just like a flower, but to the gardener, a weed is less desirable than a flower because of their ability to propagate unchecked without the need of the gardener. To the Space Jockey's the Xenomorph is the flower, all other life are weeds.

Best explanation. David also said: To Create, You Must Destroy. May be humans is not a "weeds" for engineers, but they they definitely "the soil" for aliens.

---

Many thousands of years ago a Juggernaut either landed on Earth or was discovered on Earth by Paleolithic/Neolithic humans who were then taken to

Also, Engineers being a few millennia old slaves sounds more plausible than being billions of years old creators capable of seeding life that will, billions of years later evolve to have a genetic match.

I used this idea in my early works. Engineers are primitive humans, who were abducted from Earth to serve the Master Race. Humans was be upgraded and then they rebelled against the Master Race. And after all - used they technology of Master Race.

Yeah, changed Engineers - strange moment. I think - it's no a plot aspect, but - budget. But... with inexpensive CG? Really strange. If any one ask me, I can say - it's discontinuity.

I think LETO ambiguity is not a problem as long as they had a idea of how A connects to Z, but a lot of it seemed they never had a Real Solid Plan... sometimes people like Mystery some like Spoon Feeding.... i think they needed the Balance, and while study of Prometheus and comments by Production and other things can give us a better understanding... Most People are just going to watch the Movie and not bother with extra material (or Re-watch it over and over) and so i feel Prometheus was just a bit too Ambiguous.. but as Lindeloff had said... if it was NOT so then there would not be so much to debate.

"A weed is a plant just like a flower, but to the gardener, a weed is less desirable than a flower "

Thats a good point Gavin and also Leto's reply, its Ambiguous to what connection such Gardening Involved... i feel anything that Steers More closer to Ancient God Mythos and Steers away from something VERY ALIEN could be seen as a Distraction from what ALIEN was about.

There are repeating Multiple Layers of this Creation ARC...  some were expecting something that would link more to a SOUL, a After-Life and meeting more God-like beings... to me Prometheus was not about that but i wont go into detail because well it would require a long post thats OFF TOPIC and would not appeal to many.

I think something more Surreal, Lovecraftian should be explored something Horrific.... But i am not quite buying the MILLIONS of years old RACE who created the Derelict and Eggs, then used the Engineers and used them to Create Mankind all for the Purpose of Harvesting... because well we have to assume this Process takes Millions of Years...

Unless our Xenomorphs or whoever Created the Heavens and Earth and Mankind 6000 years ago LOL

I think we could look at Planet 4 as a Garden of Eden, where those beings were Taken to then allow for Mankind to had existed but depending how we explore this PLOT, it really comes down to what role the Xenomorph had... and for some Fans the whole Gods and Creators is just taking the Franchise away from ALIEN... the whole Xenomorph was a Engineered Weapon Created a Long Time after the Engineers went around Seeding Worlds and so the ALL-TIME Agenda was not...  Seed Worlds, to then come back Tens of Thousands or Millions of years later to USE them as HOSTS.

Which i think does-not set well with some fans... but the Prequels was intended to NOT be a ALIEN movie as in cover in depth the Xenomorph... it was to go and do its own thing about the Engineers and Creation, but this BOLD Plot was a bit of a Poisoned Challace...

A distraction for some from the XENOMORPH and maybe in Hindsight the Space Jockey should have been some Ancient Race, FAR FAR away from Home with that CARO and for some Mystery Reason.

The Problem is HOW do you introduce Humans?  It would have to be they just by Coincidence appear around LV-426 and discover a Outpost or the Derelict, or they detect the SOS and Investigate... which well was already done in ALIEN.

IF the Space Jockey was a Alien Species who are NOT Connected to Earth, and he was carrying a Bio-Weapon then we have to ask for what Conflict and Where, and where are these WARING Races or Factions.

Do we explore them? How do you introduce Human Characters, and WHY have Mankind not came across any of this Conflict in the Franchise.

IF the Space Jockey are just seeding the Xenomorph for some other Reason, we have to ask WHY and for what Benefit, if its to spread the Xeno across the Galaxy then HOW far had they got in the Galaxy and WHY had they not ever managed to be successful with Mankind.

The Creators/Gods Plot allowed them to introduce Humans via Dr Shaw and Holloways Findings..   The Potential at some point they wished to UNDO us with a Bio-Weapon that proved to be Costly to themselves which they maybe then Abandoned and just in their Ignorance and Naivety thought that they would just let Mankind ROT on Earth, as its not like without the Engineers we would NEVER evolve to the point of being able to Travel the Stars, and so again another Hubris. (First messing about Creating Horrific Bio-Weapons).

There is so many different routes to explore the Agenda of the Space Jockey Race... thats its hard to come up with a PLOT that will please everyone...  WHY i canceled my projects.

I will throw this into the debate!

The Source i had seemed to claim Mankind played the Bigger Role in the Xenomorph and we are 4th/5th Generation of Mankind, the Engineers are Genetically connected to us,  they (i assume LV-223) are more in common with David than us...  The Engineers are NOT the Gods...

Sounded a bit ODD to some when i passed that on in early March 2015

But then after Alien Covenant over 2 years latter we had these concepts by TWO Artist (Steve Messing and Wayne Haagg) and we have to ASK... what the Hell did these mean?

Those beings DONT look Engineer but HUMAN.

Since this topic is about whether or not David created the xenomorph, I would like to elaborate somewhat concerning that.

The information in Prometheus is ambiguous. The black goo either comes from or creates a xenomorph creature. The mural depicts the xenomorph life cycle. The hologram shows engineers running from something and those who don’t make it in time to the closing safety doors ends up dead with holes in their chests. Shaw births a huge face hugger (the trilobite) and an engineer births the deacon (with xenomorphic traits).

Still, it could perhaps be argued that this is not the real biomechanical alien . . .

The novelization of Prometheus was only released in Japan (it would have been an interesting read) but the differences compared to the film can be read about in Xenopedia. However, the other novelizations, by Alan Dean Foster, are available (I recently read his novelization of “The Thing”. Very good!).

In Foster’s novelization of Alien: Covenant the encounter between David and Oram is somewhat different from the film. After killing the neomorph Oram follows David into his lab:

“Oram found himself filing past a row of tall, menacing bipeds. Their tough exoskeletons gleamed like black steel. Though there were slight individual variations, all had in common the same threatening aspect - long tails ending in scorpion-like points, curving elongated skulls devoid of visible eyes, and jaws filled with teeth shining like chromed chisel.”

Later on, David shows Oram an old, petrified egg with a petrified facehugger inside. As Oram winces, David says:

“In case you are wondering, I had nothing to do with it. It lies as I found it, a supreme example of the Engineers’ skill. And also, I suppose, of their hubris. Would that I could create something so perfect in its function”

As for story and screenplay, Paglen, Green, Logan, and Harper are credited.

chli

The Engineers from the hologram in Prometheus could be rather running from some accidental, or caused by some sabotage, black goo spill / contamination.

The head they found inside the sanctuary displayes some new cells in a state of change and some black goo started to drip from the temples after they run a stem line into locus coeruleus. 

The pile of dead Engineers suits had holes everywhere, from helmets to boots, it reminds of the effect of black goo on the Engineers from planet 4.

There is no mention of the xenomorph in Prometheus. The Deacon was the result of a black goo chain reaction on Holloway, Shaw and the last surviving Engineer, but just to prove, IMO, that the human genome was needed to achieve the xenomorph in its bipedal form. There were other manifestations of the black goo on worms and Fifield. It confirms its limitless potential what David said in Advent:

"t is essentially a form of radical AI. Making the substance unbelievably chaotic. That generates a unique reaction, to every genome it encounters. Reshaping life. Virtually limitless in its potential & application."

The Deacon was probably what inspired David to create the xenomorph. 

I don't know what to say about the murals, are they part of the "Mystery Box"? Was the Deacon from the mural like a warning sign (pictograms) only: "Caution! Do not sleep with your wife if you ingested black goo! This is what will happen! We hardly nailed that burster!"

We have no other clue in Prometheus that the Engineers created the xenomorph. 

We have all clues that David created the xenomorph in Alien Covenant. 

The films are canon, novelisations are not.

So all credit goes to David.

The Deacon was probably what inspired David to create the xenomorph.

David never saw the Deacon.

I don't know what to say about the murals, are they part of the "Mystery Box"? Was the Deacon from the mural like a warning sign (pictograms) only

I don't think so. Holloway said: "Just another tomb". I think the Deacon-like creature in the mural is the source of Black Goo. Or a messiah for Engineers, or a special creature that gives Engineers their power. And Engineer's head in center is a scientist or a conqueror who has curbed this power. Perhaps the engineers of LV-223 want to resurrect this creature.

And, I think, we need Lara Croft for this mystery. :)

"David never saw the Deacon."

David never saw that Deacon. That Deacon was an accident, like the Hammerpede. But David could have learned about the effects of the black goo from inscriptions and during the travel to planet 4. I want to underline that the Deacon or a similar xenomorph as an effect of black goo on the Engineers was known to them, but they did not created it intently, like David did later on.

For Holloway,  as an archeologist, it looked like a tomb, but I think it was rather a sanctuary, tha black goo was stable in that room due to controlled conditions that changed when Prometheus crew opened the door.

"And, I think, we need Lara Croft for this mystery. :)"

Lara Croft is the wife of David, so she shoul know more :)

@ daliens,

As I just pointed out in the "Are the eggs still on LV-426" thread, there is enough evidence in Alien: Covenant to negate Davids assertions that he created the Xenomorph - such as when he asserts this to Walter during a conversation whereby Walter points out the David is an "off note", broken, damaged, insane... a liar.

Covenant has connotations to John Milton's Paradise Lost, with David mirroring the fall of Lucifer, and one of Lucifers many titles is "the prince of lies" - throughout Alien: Covenant David lies over and again. His assertion that he created the Xenomorph is a lie, fabricated from a broken mind suffering from delusions of omnipotence.

"It is essentially a form of radical AI. Making the substance unbelievably chaotic. That generates a unique reaction, to every genome it encounters. Reshaping life. Virtually limitless in its potential & application."

Yes, with the above quote David is talking about, in Advent, the black goo. But the same description applies to the Xenomorph. One is not the precursor to the other, they are one and the same - the black goo is the Xenomorph, just in a weaponized form, developed by the engineers to be deployed in pottery urns containing glass vials. Of course, this is my assertion, and you likely have your own, but as a said above David only claims he created the "perfect organism" during a conversation about his apparent fallibility, suggesting it is a lie.

@ BigDave,

Engineers, humans, one and the same in my opinion. the two theories for Engineers relationship to humanity are...

# They are a precursor race, humans that existed before we did. As explored in Doom 3, The Red Planet, Assasins Creed, etc.

# They are human slaves, taken by Aliens to serve them. As explored in Stargate.

Either is possible and likely, but when we look at the Engineers technology on Planet 4 and their perceived behavior mentioned in Advent we are given two choices...

# They created life and waited billions of years for humanity to evolve, visited humanity, sought to destroy humanity using the black goo, and then turned away from using the black goo.

# or, as human slaves they returned periodically to Earth, and when they got the order to destroy earth refused and turned away from the black goo using it instead to create life.

Gavin I agree that David is delusional and the prince of lies, but a stronger proof that he created the xenomorph are the facehugger embrios. How could he have had those if he did not create them himself?

"As you can see, I've become a bit of an amateur zoologist over the years. It's in my nature to keep busy, I suppose. The pathogen took so many forms... and was extremely mutable. Fiendishly inventive, in fact. The original liquid atomized to... particles when exposed to the air. Ten years on, all the remains... outside of the original virus... Are these gorgeous beasts. Patience is everything. From the eggs came these parasites... Shock troops of the genetic assault. Waiting for a host entering the host... rewriting the DNA... Ultimately... producing... well, these enviable unions. My beautiful bestiary. Soon enough I began a bit of genetic experimentation of my own. Some cross-breeding, hybridising...

You engineered this, David?

Idle hands are the devil's workshop, Captain. Come. This is what I wanted to show you. My successes. You see, Captain... My work has been frustrated... by the lack of an essential ingredient.

Are they alive?

Waiting, really..

For what? What are they waiting for, David?

Mother. Perfectly safe, I assure you. Take a look."

In the above scene with Oram he explains how it all started, he has evidence of his experiments, his beautiful bestiary, all culminating with his successes from the basement.

There are two eggs in his lab, apart from the little ones on the table, one egg is sliced as for the other one, David removes one side of it and we have a glimpse of a dead facehugger inside. He does not say a word about them.

Again, David says a lot of lies, but all his lies are debunked in the film, except the fact that he created the xenomorph. Is that a lie too? A lot of evidence suggests otherwise.

What evidence do we have that the Engineers created the xenomorph? It comes to mind Shaw's reply from Prometheus: "Because this is what I choose to believe!"

And in the end, I will quote again Ridley Scott from another interview from March 3, 2017:

"Prometheus was about who and why? This is getting closer to who designed it and for what reason."

Doesn't matter. They did U-turn with A:C. They do U-Turn with A:C-2.

@chli

I think while the Novel Suggest that, the Movie does-not have the exact same scenes, as far as "menacing bipeds. Their tough exoskeletons gleamed like black steel. Though there were slight individual variations, all had in common the same threatening aspect - long tails ending in scorpion-like points, curving elongated skulls devoid of visible eyes, and jaws filled with teeth shining like chromed chisel.”  There are some Examples but i dont recall any Matching the Full Scale and Description as shown in the Novel... so again i think it depends on HOW did ADF come to include such things in the Novel?

"The hologram shows engineers running from something and those who don’t make it in time to the closing safety doors ends up dead with holes in their chests"

This can be interpreted as such and that SCREAM did not Help things...

But i cam to a different conclusion... we need to FORGET what we see in ALIEN and look at what we see in Prometheus.  which is this Black Goo Pathogen, that Dr Shaw had indicated she had seen something similar before (Ebola) and Janek mentioned he had to Nuke a Facility because some Scientist Spilled something.

The First Time we see any GOO is the Sacrificial Engineer, he consumes the Substance and a Violent Reaction occurs, his Body Molecule by Molecule is being Broken Down, and the Resulting Black Particles of Matter and Pathogen seem to FLY off, until the Engineers Legs are Dissolved and he Falls into the Water Fall/Lake.

Then we have the Hologram Scene, those Engineers do appear to be running away, but they also appear to be running towards that Big Head/Ampoule Room.  Some may say WHY run towards the Place the Pathogen is Stored?

Here we need to look at some Evidence... 

Firstly those URNS all remained intact until the Prometheus Crew (No Helmets) had affected the Environment, for Thousands of Years prior those Urns remained Intact!

Second the Engineers Head had remained in a Well Preserved Condition, YET his Body on the Outside is just a Hollow Shell (The Space Suit),  The Engineers Head when Re-Activated by the Probe that Stimulates Cells to become Active, suddenly EXPLODED.

I therefor assume that for some Reason the Big Head Room's Environment somehow Slowed Down or Prevented the Pathogen from having ANY effect... it HALTED it.  If this ASSUMPTION is correct it would give Good Reason for WHY those Engineers were all attempting to reach this ROOM.  It also would explain WHY the Engineers Head was Preserved, and WHY the Urns remained intact until the Human Crew with NO helmets arrived.

The Deleted Scenes showed our Engineer walked across the Surface of LV-223 with NO Helmet and so they likely dont use them to survive in that Environment but as some Bio-Hazard Protection,  in both terms of preventing the Pathogen to enter their Body, and also in Terms of preventing them from AFFECTING the Storage Room for the Pathogen.

Next i come to those Engineer Body's, nearly all of them had NO Chest Bust Holes, the Holes where in the Heads, but also other parts of the Body, Arms, Legs and well  in many places.  This could mean they was attacked by a Xenomorph.  But these Suits also look HOLLOW (which could be because thats easier from a Production Perspective so Less Weight).

When you look in context to what i have mentioned so far, and then look at Alien Covenant and how the Black Goo seemed to Replicate and then Escape the Engineers from what ever Orifice it could escape from....

ASK yourself this... what happens if they wore Space Suits?, would the Pathogen try and Escape from the Suit?

If we look at the Sacrificial Engineer and his Reaction was contained within a Space Suit, we could maybe ponder would such a Violent Chemical Reaction be like when you have a Mint/Minto into a Soda/Cola Bottle and Shake it... this creates a Violent Reaction and any SINGLE weak point in the Bottle and the Liquid/Gas will Escape/Explode out of this...  

I assume this explains the Holes in the Engineers Suits.. a Flaw in this Theory (which i put on here many times prior to Alien Covenant) is that with Alien Covenant we have to ask WHY those Engineers Bodys became like Petrified/Calcified?  (The Radical AI is the explanation but thats for another debate).

It is a Theory, that i think reflects the Clues, Dialect and Comments by Production, but its a theory that leaves a Question "so how does this explain the Fricken Xenomorph" it does-not...  we need to look at what happened to Dr Shaw in Prometheus and Davids experiments on Planet 4 or the Hammerpedes for that.

Here is a Image showing what i have been on about.

"Doesn't matter. They did U-turn with A:C. They do U-Turn with A:C-2."

Yeah, but I'm afraid it's too late, for some at least.

I don't know if I can accept that David lied about creating the perfect organism. Or if the Space Jockey is not a big bald humanoid in a suit. Or an android in a big bald humanoid's suit :)

Actually,  the more I think about the fact that David created the xenomorph,  the more interesting I find it. I want to see how he got the biomechanical one. In other circumstances we would never find out, leaving it a mistery.

Damn it, Ridley, you are the next visionary, always ahead of our times. People will understand later the lonely perfection of your dreams.

Damn it, Ridley, you are the next visionary, always ahead of our times. People will understand later the lonely perfection of your cuckoo.

Yeah. Sorry. I know. :)

"We have no other clue in Prometheus that the Engineers created the xenomorph"

I can agree with this... despite the indication was the Xenomorph had Originated from those Experiments or the Outbreak, but Alien Covenant threw that Curve-Ball that changed things.

If we go back prior to Alien Covenant, then indeed the intention was to indicate a connection, more direct in Alien Engineers, and then loosely with Paradise which became Prometheus.

So in Hindsight it became a bit of a MESS...  When looking at the other ideas for FIFIELD we could see that he was intended to have more Xeno/Deacon DNA, also he was intended to have ACID BLOOD  (did in drafts) then the Engineers Face Burn had occurred during his Struggle with the Trilobite.... but the Re-shoots while in Burns make up and alluded to it being from the Crash, yet there was no signs of FIRE DAMAGE on the Juggernaught.

The Fresco showed a EGG but this was not a complete shot and for a Split Second... 99% of people would missed it... 

The Engineers Cryo-Pods had Holes in them apart from the Surviving Engineer, while we never had a clear close up shot of those Cryo-Pods (again they was easily missed) the Props inside where Chest Busted Engineers, Holes the Size of what a Deacon would make.. yet Hole in Cryo-Pod much Smaller.. but alas this is another Oversight!

So there was clues..but there was little time spent on those clues, and some of the alternative designs and Acid Blood and whole Editing had made such clues hard to read or missing completely.

Alien Engineers gives the Biggest Clues, if you use that as a Rosetta Stone then Prometheus becomes NOT so ambiguous.

The Mural.... thats a Mystery, maybe it meant something, maybe its a Red Herring... the Fresco too... but i have had my LONG TIME theory on that... but its something that would take a LONG post....  i feel its pretty Solid though, but a ANCHOR point is the Sacrificial Bowl, which was replaced by the Green Rock, which i can SAFELY assume is because of the Scale of the Bowl, compared to when we saw it in the Sacrificial Scene would indicate the Sacrificial Engineer to be about 12-13ft Tall.  Which was the Intention!

The lack of Scale for our 7.5ft Engineers on LV-223 maybe meant that LARGER Sacrificial Bowl had to GO!

The lack of Scale for our 7.5ft Engineers on LV-223 maybe meant that LARGER Sacrificial Bowl had to GO!

OH C'MON! They use CG, to replace the bowl with the crystal. If they want, they can simply change the size of bowl. There is should be a good reason, or it's another mystery for mystery.

" and one of Lucifers many titles is "the prince of lies"

Certainly this is how Abrahamic Faiths have it, Lucifer does fit more with Prometheus and Enki too, and so actually the "prince of lies" would be "beacon of truth"   But in context to David and When ONE note is off the Symphony is well destroyed, yes David could be a bit bonkers and deluded.

I think however when we look at Prometheus and Alien Covenant as far as Davids Notes... then it could be take as he had created the Proto-Morph if you will.  I will answer this with my reply to daliens comment.

"David never saw that Deacon. That Deacon was an accident"

We have to remember David has a High IQ, we can assume he could Read the Engineer Writing in the Complex, who knows how much he gained from when he activated the Juggernaught Chair...

David had witnessed that Dr Shaw was carrying a NONE-Traditional Fetus.... while he never saw the Deacon in Prometheus.... (who knows after that Movie until they left) but you would BET he would have been interested to see what became of Dr Shaws Child.... 

So its possible he would have been interesting in REPLICATING the Event..   with Alien Covenant it showed that David had witnessed what the Neomorph Spores could create and he had attempted various experiments with them and using the Black Goo to take traits from various Organisms to in essence EVOLVE the Neomorph into the Xenomorph.  A understanding of the Black Goo as far as if we used Alien Engineers Nano-Scarabs would show you HOW the Black Goo can indeed be used to Cross/Hybrid and Obtain Traits from Organisms.

So daliens indeed what you are saying i feel is what we are being shown.... i dont think it was a WISE move.. and certainly was-not what was intended..

Something i am sure many wished they never saw, but maybe something we need to accept rather than Clutch at Straws... some fans still wont accept the Space Jockey is NOT a Skeleton... but everyone is entitled to their opinion even when One Note is Off ;)

I think what we need to look at is from Davids POV...

If he wanted to know what those Engineers were doing and wanted to Witness what they created First Hand, then Dr Shaw's Fetus was a Interesting Result... he never got to see the Deacon, but surely he would be wondering WHAT would Happen Next, he would maybe see similarity in Dr Shaws Fetus and the Mural, as far as the Face Huggers but he never got to see the END Product...  so we could assume he would maybe WANT to replicate that.

IF David had encountered the Neomorph, and a Xenomorph Egg then WHY THE HELL would he bother with all those other Experiments?

It would be Found Xenomorph Egg Check!   Got some Spores Check!   Now lets await for the Engineers and Humans and its Party Time!

You could suggest that he wanted to Create a Hybrid Version, that would combine the Neomorph Traits... and that could still be plausible...  The main Problem is such a PLOT is well a bit Crap, and so we can hope and look for clues to try and AVERT what we was shown instead of being in Denial!

Personally i would want David to go on and Evolve his Xenomorphs to be something else... but i feel its such a Coincidence that he Replicates something from LV-426, unless he uses/obtains a Egg.... but then we have to ASK why bother with all those other Experiments.

"i found my Wolf, then spent 10 years Fecking Around with in-superior versions"  that makes no sense!

We have to accept things and think how can we EVOLVE and change it moving forwards and not alter whats happened.. some Fans are upset at Camerons Bugs Life! And the Queen.... if RS was allowed to REBOOT that idea out of Existence and go with what was Originally Planned.. i dont think that would be ideal, and the Queen should remain...

So i think we need to FIX the problem and not IGNORE it... and so it makes more sense NOW that The Engineers or whoever created them will return they will Discover Davids Xenomorph and see what a Perfection in the Making that is... they would see David and see him as Similar, or maybe what Humanoids David Creates... and then these beings (Engineers or Creators) take Davids Xenomorph, take David or his Humanoids and Combine them to create the Eggs on LV-426.

THIS has to be the best way to go, the other option is get CAMERON and Blomkamp and ..... Re-boot the Prequels... they never happened lol.

By that i mean you just have to Roll with the Punches, and come out the other end with a better Round 2....  than just NOT accept and hope for a Reboot of Ideas...

"Camerons Bugs was Stupid"  sorry we have to accept this but this does-not have to mean thats the only kind of Xenomorph.

"The Space Jockey is NOT a Engineer" sorry we maybe have to accept it, but by Virtue of Scale and minor differences we can introduce the Space Jockey as something different... but a Skeletal Remains is a Stretch too FAR.

So basically we could go the route the Engineers or their Creators had DROPPED the Ball, then David picked it up, the Engineers then Take the Ball off David and then TOUCHDOWN/GOAL!  

Making David merely the Middle Man.... the Engineers or their Creators gave the A (maybe a bit on wards) in the Origins, David merely did the M and then those Engineers/their Creators do the Z and Voila we have those Eggs on LV-426.

daliens

Regarding the three dead engineers in the pilot room, there are holes in their hypersleep chambers just above their chests suggesting a chest burster exiting first through their ribcages then right through their hypersleep chambers.

As for the engineer pile outside the closed door, Milburn remarks: “This thing here. Like it’s opened from inside. Almost as if it exploded”. This is, of course, meant to be a reference to Dallas’s words about the Space Jockey’s chest wound: “Bones are bent outwards. Like he exploded from inside.”.

When it comes to the deacon being bipedal, and we accept that the resulting creature takes up traits from its host (which can also be debated), the engineer and human DNA match so there shouldn’t be any special differences, except the size (ultramorph).

"There is should be a good reason, or it's another mystery for mystery."

Certainly i think thats a Good Point, they could have made a CGI Smaller Bowl, it would be harder than a Green Crystal because this was placing something LARGER to cover something Smaller...    you would Replace Dumbo with a Mouse.. maybe thats not a ideal Anology so pass that... but  its easier to over CGI something with something Bigger, than to Replace with something Smaller....

But having a Smaller Bowl would NOT have been Impossible... so its open to WHY this was changed, could it be as i suspect?  But then if this really MATTERED or the Plot, then WHY not replace with Smaller Bowl.

Could it be because they changed the PLOT... well they seemed to change things on the FLY... look at the Scenes that got CUT just to show us the Engineers HATED Humans went Postal, Crashed and Got Burned and went on another Rampage for Survivors.

I think a lot shows that those working on the Prequels just cant make their minds up and stick to a A-Z Plot... and so YES we have to give Ridley Scott some of the blame for that.

"Engineers, humans, one and the same in my opinion. the two theories for Engineers relationship to humanity are.."

They certainly are created.. i think when looking at the Creation Layers many overlook David... he could be the ANSWER right there...

David was not created purely because Weyland wanted a SON to love as his own.....  I dont think Dr Shaw's answers to her Questions would have shown that GOD created Mankind to Love and Cherish for ever and ever!

The Sumerian Mythos well some interpretations, indicated a Race of Gods Sub created a Slave Race, who Rebelled and so they created another Slave Race (Mankind). If we look at the Biblical Account.... If Lucifer did-not rebel and take some of the Angels with him... WOULD God have created Mankind, but some accounts are his Fall was because he would not BOW down to worship Adam.

We should not stick all of our Eggs in One Basket as far as what Mythos to look at.... i think the Broad Themes should be applied though!

What Purpose does the David and Walter Models have?  They are to Serve Mankind, Created to make our Lives Easier and Perform  Tasks that could be deemed DIFFICULT or Dangerous to Mankind.

Another Purpose would be in context to Weyland Personally, for a Man who wishes to leave a Legacy, so he would be Immortalized in his works, and try and play GOD, then creating a David/Synthetics would make him feel is is a GOD.

Also if we consider that creating David and AI could be seen as a attempt to gain Immortality if Weyland could only just UPLOAD his Soul into a Synthetic....  

Then we could look at maybe these reasons being maybe similar to reasons for Creation the Further up the Ladder we go.

We also have to consider David... he was not happy with how his Creators had viewed him, not when he felt Superior and so David becomes Sentient and Rebels, and we see him also looking to WANT to be a Creator himself!

And so this also could apply to the higher levels of that Creation Ladder.....

The LV-223 Engineers could be to those Planet 4, as David or Replicants are to Mankind.

So back to your Slave Race Comment... yes why not... Space Jockeys could created Engineers for similar reasons as i mentioned, and Engineers could create Mankind (or Space Jockey do) to for the same reasons again and so Forth!

We could then ponder is this Slave/Task related to Sacrifice?  Highly likely, but then its for what reason... Create Life, Create Death, spread the Xenomorph... i think all options in context are possible.

I look at Planet 4 as in context to Paradise/Garden of Eden, a the Cradle of Creation, watched over by some Higher Beings.  Was their a Faction who had then done things against what was intended and BANISHED?

Did Mankind come from here before we was BANISHED?

I look at LV-223 as a Green-House, Nursery our Gardeners of Space would use to Test/Evolve various life and then Re-Seed them onto the Worlds.   My Prometheus Sequel ideas i was to show  a Flash Back where Primitive Apes were taken to LV-223 to then be Evolved into Mankind (Hybrid Engineer/Ape) and then taken to Earth.

They returned over and over... and the Stat Maps are saying "this is where you came from"  something had happened at some point that lead to LV-223 becoming something else... a Place to Create Horror... well some Engineers Discovered something Interesting and used this to Evolve themselves, and then attempted to use this to Create something to EVOLVE Mankind after we had upset them.

But alas such ideas or Plot is something that just does-not become very ALIEN, and i had some more Alieny ideas but it was Merging them... which i could not find a ideal way so i abandoned even trying!

A lot of Fans just feel the Prequels should Center around the Xenomorph and our Engineers/Space Jockeys are just enslaved to spread the Xeno-Seed.  I find some flaws with that though.

in HINDSIGHT... the Prequels should have been Left to a Mystery and maybe just go ahead with ALIENS 2 and AVP 3 etc.

"This thing here. Like it’s opened from inside. Almost as if it exploded”

This could also explain the theory i had too... i understand my posts are too long winded to be read by many though..   WHY i am pondering giving the site a indefinite break.. (in terms of if i just end up overflowing the site with endless pages that distract from other peoples discussions).

The DNA match was intended to show we came from them....  some take a 100% Match as meaning we are all the same...  but every Human would have a 100% Match, in context to that finding by Dr Shaw.

These would have a 100% Match in context too....

But then not every Genome would be identical (because we would all be Clones).

So it was to show we are very related, the flaw was that they should have said... "the Data shows we are nearly a 100% Match, we must have came from them!" 

But ALAS.

The Engineers have some differences, they seemed to have Enhanced themselves... but then i guess its a case of a Skinny Guy would have the same DNA match as a Massive Body Builder.

If we found a way/drug to stop out Body/Organs from Aging so we AGE 5X Slower, Essentially meaning we could live for 400-500 years... we would still have a DNA Match.

So we are connected, we came from them, they came from us or we both came from something else related...  the Engineers would come back and enhance us over and over, so we would become more and more like them. Up to a Certain Point....  but then it depends on HOW we look at the Sacrificial Scene and even if his applies to Mankind?

The hole Chest Busted Engineers and Exploded Engineer Props could have been from Production for Alien Engineers, when indeed the reasons for them was different...   some had been Chest Busted, some wounded by said Organisms.

The Prequels are full of changes of direction and flaws, that its open to debate and sometimes a mess...  i think we always have to consider what Spaights and Ridley Scott had been attempting though....... but i am not sure many Fans like the idea the Xenomorph is a Experiment created from the Discovery of a Organism the Engineers used their Creation/Hybrid Tool on to Extract Traits to Enhance themselves and Technology, while also making Various Bio-Weapon Xenomorphs too.

I think when looking at the WHOLE layers of Creation, maybe we can apply the idea (well one) i had...

The Space Jockey are either a Bio-Mechanical Being, or a Humanoid (not so Human) in a Bio-Mechanical Suit... they had Created/Came Across the Engineers and they had given them a WORLD to live on, taught knowledge to a limited degree, but they would in this COVENANT have to provide some Sacrifices on their part (need to give life to the Wolf and Lamb).

The Engineers Rebelled against this....  then Mankind was created to replace them....  and a WAR happened... The Engineers Masters Disappeared (could left the Galaxy) the Engineers then took their Masters Technology and Re-Engineered it.

They then renounced this after a WAR, and then began to Subjugate Mankind before Mankind started to Rebel, so the Engineers Returned to Creating a Bio-Weapon that Genetically similar to what their Masters used the Engineers for... the Engineers Re-Create this to use on Mankind.

I had about 5-6 variants of this idea, each a little different in various aspects.

For example Space Jockey could even be a Humanoid created/discovered for the same Task... what this does is take the idea i had posted just, and bring the Space Jockey as another Layer rather than Masters..

Space Jockey Race Enslaved, Rebel, Create Engineers, etc and we see Engineers Repeat this with Mankind, and Mankind Repeat this with David etc etc.

This leaves a VERY Ancient and ALIEN element thats been LONG gone, as the TOP of the Chain.... we could then bring these beings (Starbeasts) back!

chli

Please look again, frame by frame at the pile of dead bodies, the holes in the suits are everywhere, BigDave also put a collage above to see similarities with the effect of the black goo on other Engineers (planet 4, sacrificial).

I saw the holes in the cryopods, but never once camera stops or zoom in on them, if I did not read about them, I would probably not have noticed. We don't see in the film the props of those 3 dead Engineers,  I don't know where BigDave saw them. So even if initialy this was some important detail, it was minimized during editing. 

What I say is probably the Engineers saw other variants of Deacon before, but they were created by accident, like in Prometheus, the first to do mass production of xenomorphs seems to be David.

The only alternative would be to see the other mounds, maybe there are more clues there. In the film I only saw urns and vials of black goo.

And if we look at David's lab,  at Advent and at David's drawings we see what he ment by: "  I have taken great pains to detail every step, every cell, every mutation, unfortunately none of the planet's life has been proven to be very fruitful. I had some interesting results, but was still far from perfection. With Shaw I realised there was something extraordinary in the substance reaction to the human genome. I was able to unlock new properties and tweak the organisms aggression. An instinct for survival. It took years. But I finally found my wolf."

@daliens

A lot of stuff comes from Set Props...

These are on the Internet but also Blu-Ray Extras.

Originally Alien Engineers had indicated the Engineers had Re-Engineered and Weaponized 8 Variants of the Xenomorph, but also Holloway had came across in a Cave a UN-Weaponized more Cephalopod looking Variant.

The Urns got knocked over by Fifield who was bitten by  a Nano-Scarab from within, and he Evolved into a Xeno-Hybrid with Acid Blood.

The First time we saw the Scarabs they was in the Sacrificial Bowl/Cup and Consumed a Engineer the Thousands of Scarabs then Flew off, they had Engineer DNA stored in them and ONE goes and BITES a Primate who Evolves into a Human....   Meaning the Primate becomes a Engineer Hybrid which is our Ancestors.

Therefor the Urns must contain Scarabs that have Consumed Xenomorph (or related) DNA that was passed onto Fifield and likely they used this Urns to Engineer the various forms of Xenomorph...   we CAN only assume they used the Sacrificial Scarabs on some Discovered Organism that Predated the Xenomorph to obtain its Traits to use for Technology and Bio-Weapons.

If we take this into context, then apply it to the Goo in Prometheus, then we look at the  Mural and Fresco, i think we maybe can conclude the Engineers encountered a Organism they used their Creation Tool on to Obtain DNA to then Enhance themselves and their Technology and then also to Create Bio-Weapons..

If the LV-223 Engineers are a Sub-Creation like Replicants and CANT procreate or they are Engineers who had Engineered themselves and LOST the ability to Procreate Naturally

Then coming across a Organism that Impregnates them to then Give Birth to a Life Form that is seen as Perfect or the  Potential would give Good Reason for the Experiments and Worship of the MURAL.

I think this is what was intended... but well they messed about and changed things over and over, that its a bit of a Shambles now.

Davids Experiments are in effect maybe similar to what the Engineers had done in the past.... David gives us a clue to how the Xenomorph could have been created, i feel this was the intention for Prometheus: Pandemonium if my source was correct.  But the Studio wanted a more Direct Prequel and have the Xenomorph back... so thats what we got with a slice of F-U with David Creates it, instead of Creates something similar that would give clues to HOW the Original was created.

The Theory i gave above MAY-NOT make sense to some... but if we look at the Franchise and ASK!

What Benefit would the Xenomorph have as far as for the Company?   Get Queen, collect Egg, drop Eggs off to Places we want to KILL people?

would the Xenomorph have Traits that could Evolve Mankind, if we all became Ripley 8's then we would be closer to Immortality that Weyland Wanted.

What about using some of its Aesthetics to improve Technology and Construction?

If we could HARNESS and Reproduce Spider Silk, and Spiders Exo-skeleton Body then what LIGHT-WEIGHT and Strong Materials these are compared to Plastics and Metals. Which have Pros and Cons..

That would be more useful than just use the Xenomorph for a Weapon... and so WHY not a similar reason for the Engineers experiments on some Organism they encountered?

The DNA match between engineers and humans is enough to make a quite similar xenomorph creature (bipedal) as compared to a dog (Alien 3) which would make it running around on all fours.

It’s also interesting that everything that seems to point in another direction (xenomorph being old) is ruled out as easter eggs or props meant to be for an earlier script or something. Either we look only at the films and what they show and draw conclusions from that or we take everything into account: novels, interviews, earlier scripts etc. If we look at what is shown in Prometheus, we see the whole xenomorph life cycle depicted on a wall. That’s it! We also see a deacon - which is a xenomorph creature. In my opinion (and I agree with Gavin) David is delusional. He only makes a variation of what the engineers have created or discovered long ago.

Yes, we could interpret the pile of engineers as being exposed to the pathogen and “exploded” or we could interpret it by focusing on what Milburn says (and the reference to Dallas). The other holes could be made by a xenomorph creature or they could even be made through time as the bodies decompose, and perhaps moonquakes have made rocks fall down on them. I suppose you wouldn’t say that the Space Jockey also exploded from inside because he had been exposed to the pathogen?

The movies, director and scriptwriters have made it ambiguous partly because the David-hypothesis wasn’t born when Prometheus was made. It grew from David’s development into a rebel (Fassbender’s excellent performance probably also made it a good idea to centre around him). Therefore, there are hints and references in Prometheus (such as chest holes, acid, the xenomorph life cycle on the wall, the deacon, the scream, the running engineers etc.

So, my hypothesis is that making David the creator of the xenomorph was invented after Prometheus, therefore making Prometheus ambiguous.

I think it depends on what we call a XENOMORPH

If this only refers to either the Alien Xenomorph Eggs on the Derelict or Davids  Xenomorph Eggs in Alien Covenant then the Face Hugger of these Organisms IS-NOT in that Mural.

The Mural depicts a similar Life Cycle, the Mural is SO ambiguous you could make Anything out of the shapes, but the clearest things are the Xeno/Deacon in the Middle (which looks not quite Deacon but not quite Xenomorph either)  and those TWO Face Huggers which are NOT the Traditional Face Hugger, so we cant assume what kind of Organism they would Gestate inside a Host.

The Trilobite essentially has a similar Life Cycle, only that it had not arrived from a Egg.   The Mural simply shows the Engineers had experimented with Organisms that are similar to the Xenomorph... it was open a bit for debate regarding the Xenomorph predates these, or came after these.

The Engineers are similar to Mankind that i think we can safely assume that a Engineer and Human infected with the same Face Hugger would Yield similar if not near identical Xenomorphs, apart from Size Difference.

I think the Easter Eggs are a bad idea if this is all they are as they can mislead fans... i cant quite remember who, but there was TWO people who worked on the Mural and one claimed it was merely a Tribute to HR Giger, another said the Organism in the Middle was the Bishop/Deacon.

"I suppose you wouldn’t say that the Space Jockey also exploded from inside because he had been exposed to the pathogen"

It depends how they go with the Prequels.. the idea was that it was one of the Cargo (Xenomorph Eggs) but who knows how they will show and IF they will show us WHAT happened.

The Xenomorph was a Ancient Event/Organism, that was explained as Connected to LV-223, even though clues in Prometheus were very Vague....   The idea was that the Xenomorph certainly predates the Prometheus Mission.

Then they gave the Curve-Ball, and like it or not, this was NOW the intention, despite it being a Choice that Does-Not settle with most fans...  I think while you could counter argue that we cant use this and that to argue the Xenomorph was not shown to be Ancient, but  by the same Token you cant use other things to argue that the Xenomorph Existed prior.

FACT is that it did... (prior to Alien Covenant)  but this has been changed!

FACT is this was a dumb move that simply is not the right choice as far as what made ALIEN so ALIEN.

Things are Subject to Change... and UNTIL we see David's Xenomorphs taken onto a Engineer Ship and Ends up on LV-426, then we can still keep a open mind that maybe David does-not create the Xenomorph.

I would say a Majority of Fans would hope so... and i am among them ;)

"So, my hypothesis is that making David the creator of the xenomorph was invented after Prometheus, therefore making Prometheus ambiguous."

Absolutely... while its not impossible... i think as of even 2013 the idea that David would be revealed as the Creator of the Xenomorph would be what 99.99% No He Did-Not

Ridley Scott even in 2013 had explained the event was Thousands of years ago!  We dont know what Prometheus 2 would have shown...  a source i had in Feb 2015 claimed that David would Re-Create something similar, as in either Re-Create something like the Xenomorph or Deacon.  They also claimed a 2nd Monster that David does-not create would appear.  This seems to fit with Alien Covenant only the Monsters may have appeared a bit different, and they decided to have it that David does-not Create something similar, but actually Creates it (Xenomorph).

At the moment we could ignore Ridley Scott as maybe his Symphony is not well tuned either...  if we go by the Movie Alone... then there is NO 100% Proof to suggest David had Created the Proto-Xenomorph, or that had had Re-Created a Xenomorph.

Go by the Novel and then this indicates David had NOT Created the Xenomorph on LV-426.

Go by the Advent and its ambiguous and so 50/50

Go by Ridley Scott and its indicated David creates the Xenomorph that predates the Eggs on LV-426

Everyone is entitled to Conclude what they wish... UNTIL we get to see David's Eggs ending up on LV-426 and then shown the SOS Signal comes from that Ship that becomes the basis of Special Order 937....

Then we can doubt that David created it, and it could be changed to show that he DID-NOT create it..  Fingers Crossed.

Let's see what Steven Messing,  the creator of the mural, has to say about it:

“Another set that I worked on was known as the ‘Head Room.’ This was a ceremonial room that contained hundreds of ampules beneath a giant sculpture of an Engineer’s head. Julian Caldrow did an amazing job of working out all of the details for this environment and created the set drawings. The final set was built at full scale and was incredible to walk on. I also sculpted an altar area for this set that paid homage to Giger – it is a relief sculpture hanging from the wall and has the impression of an alien form with flowing structures surrounding it. There are a lot of easter eggs in this sculpture – including several hidden Giger motifs that were not used in the original film.”

[The Engineers are] a lot about sacrifice, so in my mind there was an Engineer [in the past] who sacrificed himself to this virus and it created this horrific creature. This being, that was gonna eradicate planets, was like a parasite that would destroy the planet and then [the Engineers] could start over and rebirth it. And they kind of worshipped it and you see this relief sculpture where it’s almost a religious sculpture.”

He was a little confused, the Engineer who sacrificed himself did not create any horrific creature. But it is good to note that the virus predates the horrific creature.

And the right conclusion from Carlos Huante, a free-for-all for the design:

"“There were too many hands in the pie after it left me. It was likely that everyone was trying to stick their hands in. Ridley was surrounded by everybody’s opinions and the rules he and I created together got drowned out so they get lost. There was no more connection between anything, everything got thrown out and it was a free-for-all for the design.”

in their mind it was ok to fill the room with easter eggs.

[The Engineers are] a lot about sacrifice, so in my mind there was an Engineer [in the past] who sacrificed himself to this virus and it created this horrific creature. This being, that was gonna eradicate planets, was like a parasite that would destroy the planet and then [the Engineers] could start over and rebirth it. And they kind of worshipped it and you see this relief sculpture where it’s almost a religious sculpture.”

WOW! Cool.

I agree with your thoughts, BigDave. I ponder about the fact that we see different variations of “the xenomorph”. It takes traits from its host and eventually wipes out competitors (which is the way evolution works) as in “The Thing”. The question is what the species (if it is a species) originally looked like? What is its real appearance? The X?

The same goes for if the engineers created it through the black goo. It appears in different shapes depending on the situation, host, and also probably how far the pathogen has been developed? It might have taken the engineers millions of years to develop?

The trilobite can also have been developed through an egg, namely Shaw’s, by the way. This would then also show the perpetuity of “the xenomorph” life cycle.

dalien: To me, an easter egg is something almost hidden in the background which you might find if you look closely. It is therefore not important for the story. In Prometheus, the camera is focusing in on the altar and the mural and Holloway is studying it. The “xenomorph” creature is clearly meant to be seen (hinting at Alien) but the eggs and facehuggers would probably be hard to detect in the cinema.

This is a ceremonial room and on the altar, there was supposed to be a cup (like the one the sacrificial engineer at the beginning of Prometheus, drank from). The one drinking from the cup would either get some of the traits from the “god” on the wall (physical strength, long life perhaps) or turn into (mutate) into the “xenomorph”.

According to the quote by Messing the engineers created the xenomorph, long before David was even “born”, for the purpose of wiping out unwanted life on worlds they had seeded. The quotation at the end by Huante shows the sad aspect of production falling apart which is clearly seen in the ambiguity in Prometheus, even more confused in Alien: Covenant.