The Engineers (Sub Creation)

I think maybe its something to Consider....

If they are Augmenting themselves we have to ASK, do those on Planet 4 know this was happening? do those Beings/Counsel that was the Hall of Heads know what was happening?

Did either Consent this?

The other option could be they are a Sub-Created Species like say the Replicants were, and again its a case of WHO had Authorized this and are they still in Service/Permitted (those LV-223 Types).

Could the Black Goo had been Different in the Past and Intended, and those LV-223 Types had Engineered it to be Different or Came across something Else they then used the Creation Tools on to Obtain those Traits to use in the Black Goo, had they used these Traits to Evolve Themselves?

Are those Engineers (LV-223/Prometheus) really closer to David, a Sub-Created Species made to Serve/Perform Certain Tasks?  Made in the Image of their Creators?

Yet Made Superior, in every way? do they Lack a Soul?

Well they are Considered to NOT have One by their Creators the Planet 4 Engineers?

Can these Prometheus Engineers Procreate? or are they Sterile?

Maybe like David they became Sentient, refused to see WHY they should Serve those In-Superior Engineers? Their Creators?

Could a Combination of being viewed as Different, not Worthy, a Servant, yet being Superior and NOT being able to Procreate had weighed Heavy on those Engineers Minds (Prometheus kind).

Could they then had seen been Created in the Image of those Planet 4 Engineers as a MOCKERY... where SKIN-DEEP they look similar but on every other Level they are Superior?

At some point they became Fascinated with a Organic Creation like the Deacon and its DNA or its Ancestor and Dedicated themselves to CREATING these NEW Organisms, that are NOT Created in their Image as that would be a Creation in the Image of their Own Creators... HUMANOID.. (Planet 4 Engineers)

So they decided to Create Something ELSE and then Replace all Creation with the DNA of this NEW Creation (Deacon etc) as "Sometimes to Create, One must First Destroy"

So did those Prometheus Engineers want to Create for themselves?  Create Something that would be Superior to anything the Original Engineers had Created, and something that is NOT made in such a Image (Human like).

Could David's Motives have been Similar?

Is David pleased to be Created in the Image of Man... or has he grown to view being Created IN our Image as a Mockery Too?

Maybe the Story of David is a Mirror of those LV-223 Engineers?

"Maybe the Story of David is a Mirror of those LV-223 Engineers?"

Yeah, I like that!

Planet 4 Engineers were awake and letting their Earth children explore the galaxy...They could have wiped Earth just after the first atom bomb test!

Maybe the Engineers on LV-223 were entombed by the Planet 4 Engineers? And David freed the one Engineer from his 'prison cell'?

David almost got Earth wiped and ended up wiping the Planet 4 Engineers!

That is the Big Mystery....

Knowing IF and WHAT those on Planet 4 knew about LV-223, certainly as FAR as the Experiments etc.

So when Pondering WHY the Engineers never came back to Finish the Job, we have to Wonder did those on Planet 4 or Hierarchy of the Engineers know about the Intended Destruction of Earth and agreed or ordered it?

If they had NO-PART in it, then were MOST/ALL of the LV-223 Engineers killed off?  Leaving the Last Engineer, were there others in other Ships.... gone into Cryo-sleep to Avoid the Contamination/Infection?

I think Regardless WHO knew or ORDERED it... after the Failure... maybe they decided to Abandon the Place...

They Arrogantly felt that without their Help/Knowledge then Mankind would NOT be able to Advance to be a Space Fairing Race... they may think that as THEY had Taught us a Lot of Things, that without them in the FIRST PLACE... we would have been but Cave Men...

so they FELT that there was NO-WAY we would be able to Travel the Stars and we would NOT have Advanced any more than we had 2000 years ago, and we likely would GO Backwards and also Destroy ourselves...

So they just LET US ROT!

It was not quite David who nearly got us Destroyed.. it was Dr Shaw and Holloway and Weyland who allowed this Mission to Take Place.... it would had been likely if Dr Holloway was NOT infected and got Killed that he also would have Ordered David to AWAKEN the Engineer.

I would also say that David had Saved the Earth by Bombarding the Engineers, well Saved it for a while.. as IF he had not... i would be sure the Engineers after they realize where David and Dr Shaw came from and about LV-223 they would Determine that they had to GO and Destroy Mankind... they cant allow us to Roam the Galaxy and go and USE their Technology.

@BigDave: Well Ridley did refer to the Engineers on LV-223 as 'elegant, dark angels' so if those seen on Planet 4 are original Engineers, that planet is Paradise and LV-223 perhaps Hell as we know once imprisoned in the underworld they still plotted against Heaven. If we also consider Nietzsche, is the xeno they’re creating their attempt to engineer something "Beyond Good and Evil", that is, an effort to create a philosophy of the future and to prove to those the original Engineers helped create that God is Dead and hope is lost. Is it their attempt to create their own Anti-God/ Spell IV/Baphomet, the LV-223 Engineers perhaps similar even to Knights Templar?

Also, if the original Engineers were involved in our seeding, why would their cave paintings direct us to LV-223 if that was the estate of the Dark Engineers? Also, is Ridley intending to introduce us to Giger’s Lil I/II, Spell II/I, Lilith, etc. and if so how?

@Nathan,

The frescos depicts a location in space some 35,000 years ago, long before the Engineers turned on humanity (which we know was about 2,000 years ago).

The Engineers just left their calling card to humans living in primitive societies, that's all. Here's where we came from, since you ask.

'Here's where we came from'

Or....

Engineers: 'This is where YOU come from', "Seek this planetary system and find your answers!"(death and a movie or two)

I don't think the Engineers came from LV-223 or LV-426?

Yeah- that's one reason I didn't like Shaw much- she thought it was an invitation- sort of arrogant. How convenient for Weyland.

@Nathan Adler  (welcome back)

I think maybe some of that could be True... "they’re creating their attempt to engineer something "Beyond Good and Evil"

The Fallen Angles Comment depends how we take it and what RS had meant... was he talking in General to ALL the Engineers or just the LV-223?

You see when we talk about a Fallen Angel, we often connect it to a Demon, the Devil and so a Sign of EVIL and Sinister..... but then WHY would Evil/Sinister beings Create Life, but more so spend time to come and Visit their Creation and Interact with them?

The other Context for Fallen Angel... is a Angel that has Rebelled against their Creator and Intended Rules, for this they are Punished...  Cast Out...

So its likely the LV-223 Engineers could be the Fallen Kind... we see that David is playing the Lucifer in Alien Covenant and his Story is maybe a Repeat of what the LV-223 Engineers had been doing/had done.

Unless we look at it as a OVERSIGHT.... then the Sacrificial Scene showed us a Engineer more like the LV-223 kind and NOT our Planet 4 Originals...

Again.... RS said this does-not have to be Earth, it could also had been ANY TIME... and ANY WORLD.. it was to show HOW the Engineers Begin to Seed Life.

So a Similar Event could have Created us by using the Planet 4 Engineers?

It could be the Enhanced Engineers were Created to Perform the Sacrificial Rituals, Replacing the Need to KILL their own kind?

Or they was Created for another Reason or they are a Group who had Engineered/Enhanced themselves and then Decided to SEED themselves... which may be seen as NOT Permitted by the Hierarchy?

Its HARD to tell as it so Ambiguous.

Why those Enhanced Engineers could have decided to SEED/SACRIFICE themselves to Allow the Pathogen which has the Deacon/Neomorph etc DNA to Seed Worlds... a way to Spread a Creation that they deemed BETTER than their own DNA and that of their Creators... Maybe like how David is obsessed with doing the same... Creating something that is NOT like US!

Regarding LV-223 and the Star-Map...

It could be either a case of..

1) They are showing us WHERE we came from, in that LV-223 was a Sand-Box, a Nursery a Green-House they would Further Evolve Creations on, and when Pleased with the Results they THEN... place them back onto the Earth and other Worlds...  so LV-223 was something ELSE before things CHANGED!

2) They was showing us PLANET 4 but for some reason there World was Hidden... so when they arrived at the Zeta 2 System, the only Place that seemed close enough to HAVE a Environment that Supports Life... was LV-223 so they got it WRONG!

Hence the Reason the Covenant Crew was Surprised how anyone would have MISSED such a World like Planet 4 before in their Surveys...

"I don't think the Engineers came from LV-223 or LV-426?"

This was Confirmed in the Extended Scene from Prometheus...

If you go back far enough, we all ‘came from’ Africa.

David says the Engineers came from somewhere translated as ‘Paradise’. That’s deliberately vague and is not necessarily even a single planet or place. Where and what is Heaven, another word for Paradise?

Regardless of their origins, Engineers obviously travelled to LV-223, and they obviously travelled to Earth. When you leave a calling card you leave your name and address, not where your genes were forged in Africa.

Certainly....

I think the Prometheus Plot was to indicate that without the Engineers there would be NO Humans... he had said in Later Interviews in 2016 that the Engineers are our Forerunners.

Alien Engineers indicates the Engineers Seed/Sacrifice was to Spread his DNA that infected a Ancient Primitive Humanoid... No Real Detail given...

That could likely be some Early Hominid or Primate in the Chain of our Evolution, where its implied the Engineers DNA is what UPGRADES us to Human. This Evolved Early Ancestor via the Engineers DNA could have been in Africa ;)

Prometheus was more Ambiguous, that Sacrificial Scene was likely to show the Engineers SEED was to be the Catalyst to Evolve Basic Life.

Ridley Scott had said in the Past that the Engineers would come back Over and Over to Evolve us.. Technologically (Knowledge) and Genetically.

If you are a Genetic Space Gardener who is always Evolving your Creations, it would be WISE to have another Location where you can Perform such Upgrades so you only PLACE those you deem Sucsess back to the World your Gardening....

LV-223 is likely that kind of Place... those Engineers did-not need a Environment like we do to Breath, they could do on the Surface with no MASK/HELMET and so WHY was did the Outpost have a Breathable Environment?

This was a Good Point back then.... but with Alien Covenant we could maybe Speculate those Engineers needed the Place Terra-formed for themselves... maybe as well as Humans etc.

Those LV-223 Engineers likely Engineered to be able to Survive the Atmosphere/Environment outside.

Regarding Paradise.....

Paradise is Considered to be... a number of things.

1) Heaven, the Place our Spiritual Soul will LIVE on in, for Eternity (only for those deemed Worthy).

2) A Similar Place where only those who Died with Honor, in Battle and well had Performed Worthy Deeds would spend ETERNITY with the Gods.

3) As above but where the Innocent and Pure would be Permitted to Live for Eternity.

so across Various Cultures/Mythos and Religion those THREE things are what Paradise is Considered, in Various forms depending on Mythos/Religion.

The other Context.... is Paradise is the Location of the Garden of Eden...  a Land that the Cradle of Creation had began... where MAN had came from, a Walled City in some Descriptions.  Were MAN would have Lived for Eternity.... if it was NOT for their Fall and CAST out of Paradise.

We CAN-NOT pinpoint any Particular Myth regarding Paradise, but i think all would have some Similarities and Links to what PLANET 4 is.....

The Engineer had likely indicated that this is WHERE his Origins are from and that he is NOT from LV-223.  So again maybe LV-223 is where our ORIGINS are from.

So the STAR-MAP was like saying WE created you HERE!

That makes sense to me.

@BigDave: The other curiosity about both prequel films so far is how the Engineers on Planet 4 look a lot less "elegant" as those on LV-223, certainly not attractive by Renaissance standards, appearing somewhat more "Uncanny", a term one tends not to consider when it comes to unfallen angels, or angels period.

@hox: I think RS having David use the term "Paradise" is meant to reference Milton's tale of Rebellion.  But if that's the case, why were the Engineers in a celebratory mood when the Rebel Angel ship returned?

I think the best way to Consider the Difference is those Engineers in Prometheus are Augmented/Enhanced, either as a Sub Creation, a Experiment or they did it to themselves thus becoming Fallen...

I would Assume that Paradise is just that.... the Location of the Garden of Eden, a Walled City, that is the Cradle/Origins of Human Kind...

A Place only the Pure and Worthy are Permitted... by that as in LIVING beings and NOTHING Spiritual...

The only way their Souls can LIVE-ON is being Chosen, and the Chosen will be used for Sacrifices to Seed the Genetic Material.... for this then they would LIVE ON in the DNA they Pass On, and they would have a Statue Erected in their Honor in the Plaza... where they would be Immortalized via their DNA and a Monument in Remembrance of their Donation to Create Life.

I do wonder IF the Juggernauts are just a Evolution of the SEEDING ships.... if a Sacrificial Engineer Consumes the GOO and their Broken Down Genetic Material that is Infused with the Pathogen is then COLLECTED and Stored in JARS, then surely Pouring the Contents into that WATERFALL would have the Same Effect?

Dropping Engineers DNA from above is more Efficient.. and using more than ONE Engineers would add to Diversity within the Gene-pool.

It’s interesting to see Planet 4 as The Garden of Eden where life began and the inhabitants eventually being cast out, perhaps because of apotheosis. On the entrance to the Engineer temple is “The Body of Christ Borne to the Tomb” and, perhaps, of Mary Magdalene who is also fallen . . .

I make the Assessment about the Pathogen based on Prometheus and the Drafts that lead up to it.

The First TWO Drafts to Prometheus introduced us to a Sacrificial Bowl that Contained Nano Scarabs.

Engineer is CONSUMED by Scarabs, they Store his DNA and then we see ONE go and Bite a Primordial Female, we see her DNA is Invaded and Mutated as the Scarab Injects the Engineers DNA into the Primordial Female she becomes a Hybrid and so Indication of the EVENT that Evolves the Earlier Hominids into our Ancestors.

The Next Time we see those Scarabs they are in a Urn that is Knocked over by Fifield he is BITTEN.. but he does-not gain any Engineer DNA, or become Consumed, he Turns into a Xenomorph Hybrid..

This seems to indicate those Scarabs must have Consumed the DNA of a Xenomorph related Organism.. those Scarabs are then Collected and Stored into the Urns.

Paradise Draft by Lindeloff seems to be similar, we see our Scarabs are Replaced by a Goo/Pathogen.. but while its more Ambiguous its indicated similar.. Engineer is Sacrificed by Sacrificial Goo.... that is indicated as Forming a Basis to HOW/WHERE our Evolution had came from.

The Urns contain Pathogen that Mutates those Infected with Xenomorph like Traits...   There is indication in Paradise Draft the Engineers had created something they SHOULD-NOT, a Long Time after the Sacrificial Scene.

Prometheus is similar, we do have a Mural in the Movie and Originally  (in the Trailers) in front of the Mural was the Altar that had a Sacrificial Bowl and NOT a Green Crystal the Bowl was Replaced likely due to the Scale of the Bowl would indicate 10ft Engineers

The other drafts described the Engineer taking Cruciform Pose while he was Sacrificing himself... so maybe the Cruciform Pose of the Mural indicates that Organism was Sacrificed and its DNA Collected into those Urns.

My POINT being that it seems the idea was the Sacrificial Substance could Obtain and Pass on the DNA of the Organism that had Consumed/been Consumed by the Sacrificial Substance....  with the DNA of a Xenomorph like Organism being stored in the Urns, indicating likely the  Organism had been infected with the Sacrificial Stuff and the Resulting Broken Down DNA Collected in the Urns.

So if thats Correct then considering the Engineers could Collect Sacrificed Engineer DNA and Store them into Urns would make for a more Practical way to SEED Worlds.

The Engineers considered Gardeners of Space, where Sacrifice is seen as Important to that END... then IF those Juggernauts are Mostly used for that Purpose then a Returning Ship would be seen as a IMPORTANT and Honorable Event...

So if those Engineers are then to have a Few of them Chosen as Sacrifices, as a GREAT Event of Importance, then this would SHOW us WHY the Engineers were NOT even Afraid of the Ship at all..

Until it started to Bombard them ;)

Certainly...

I think we have to be Careful as far as HOW any Biblical Events are Connected, i think we have to Consider those Events are something that likely Happened, but NOT exactly in the way that had been wrote down in Ancient Scriptures..

I think Planet 4 does tick a lot of Boxes as far as what Paradise/Garden of Eden was.... if we say look at Adam and Eve and they had NOT disobeyed/been tricked.

Then from them a Civilization could have developed in the Garden which is in the Walled City...

Adam and Eve were placed in ONE place where God could watch over them, via his Guarding Cherubim Angels.

Thats maybe WHY it appears the Engineers were all Confined/Chose to Live in that ONE City....

Ideal to keep the Inhabitants in Check with the Hierarchies Ways and Rules.... but a HUBRIS if the City was Attacked... a Hubris of Putting all their Eggs in ONE Basket! (no Pun Intended).

Well, I think that the notion of “hubris” is meant in the classical Greek way (like Prometheus). If you disregard the gods, “nemesis” awaits you.

If the Engineers are guilty of apotheosis, worshipping the Elders as gods (like Sir Peter Weyland: “We are the gods now”), then “nemesis” befalls them. If there is a hierarchy of “gods” (creators) then the Engineers themselves are but dabblers and punished by the ones who created them - the Creators.

@chli: Are the Creators going to be beings much more Giger-like in appearance?

@BigDave: The SEEDING ships are disc-like, similar to UFOs, so I can understand the Engineers of Planet 4 consider one of those returning to be an honourable event.  But if the LV-223 Engineers had turned bad, why would they consider a Juggernaut’s return as positive?

@BigDave: Also, while Ridley stated Engineers arrive back on Planet 4 to find it decimated, he also mentioned two or three other players coming in to investigate. Weyland-Yutani might be one, but who might the other two be?

'The SEEDING ships are disc-like...'

Wow! That's a great catch! I never thought about the different type of planet seeding ships. Makes sense...Juggernauts always seemed small and unable to seed an entire planet.

Wonder how large that seeding ship is?