Kane's Son

@Michelle,

"I am not interested in studying evil I am interested in why there is evil"

That's fine. Many other people are interested in both. Many would argue the point that unless you study evil you cannot possibly understand why there is evil.

"Another consequence of this monster love is the filmmakers will do something for pace"

Yes, of course. All successful action movies these days employ strict ratios of tension-time to fright-time. It's a well disciplined business based on a lot of audience participation research.

"The neomorph ... is a minor monster"

I disagree strongly. They are featured in several scenes, much more so than the Hammperpedes that you appear to enjoy.

"It [the neomprph] actually isn't logical in fan terms given the planet suffered a pathogen attack"

That's not correct. The pathogen mutated the planet's flora to produce infectious pods. The spores from the pods infect humans. The humans birth neomorphs. Nothing illogical about that.

"nor is it logical in terms of David and the Xenomorph"

It? The neomorph? The movie? Your language is imprecise and the argument is undeveloped, so I can't really comment on this.

"[the neomorph is] there to give some tension and make the reveal of the real deal in the third act have context nothing more nothing less... It's also what you get when you stopping making films with symbolic value"

Tension in a movie has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not the movie has more than a literal meaning, i.e. has some symbolism. Perhaps you would care to rephrase your argument more logically...

"Hammerpedes tell a very powerful mutagenic story"

As does the weaponised goo and its complex development.

"and tell us what was going on and a great deal about the Mutagen and how it works and offer a comment on promiscuousness."

They don't really tell us very much at all, other than the fact that a worm can be mutated into a hostile reptilian form that has the ability to spew acid and regenerate. They are not promiscuous and have nothing whatsoever to say about promiscuity.

Michelle, I enjoy your posts, but I would enjoy them much more if you slowed down your writing and added more clarity to your arguments.

@hox

Bull shit I nearly didn't read my post but did and its perfectly clear and you chose to appear stupid (pathogen/mutagen are not the same and Milburn on promiscuity but you  know all that surely).

Your the first one in five years that have suggested I am not clear in what I am communicating just when I am giving BD a hard time over the same issue who is a nice guy that knows deep down he extemporises beyond the point of being helpful. Pull the other one and no more, please and no I do not want the last word.

There's the rub . . .

In science, we need clarity and exact definitions. In poetry, we don't. The power of poetry is that words open up worlds. They become magic.

In order to become a complete human being, perhaps we need a balance between the left and right hemispheres? Perhaps the druids at Stonehenge were more intuned with the universe? :)

I think Ridley Scott is more of a visionary who sees things in pictures and focuses on atmosphere (Legend), although he sold his soul to the devil (xenomorph) in AC :)

Words and concepts can have a literal and figurative meaning. As far as I know, Kane didn't have a son. But when Ash says: "Kane's son" (meaning Cain's son) it becomes eerie.

@Michelle, oh dear, more rambling from you I’m afraid. Since you don’t appear to be able to respond in a coherent manner to arguments presented to you, other than resort to verbal abuse, we should perhaps discontinue this conversation.

You are right, however, in saying that BD is a nice guy. He’s far too polite with you in my opinion. He is courteous and generous whereas you come over as opinionated and aggressive, unfortunately. BD will always respond to any question put to him. You will not.

hox Why are you so high and mighty? Your arguments are not airtight. 

First off all, Millburn was trying to show off to the cool Fifield (inhaling MJ in the helmet) to land a screw when he tries to touch the Hammerpede, which then penetrates (rape) him instead. The monster is not a reptile by any means imaginable. It does not have a skeleton, a head, or even a skeleton. It regenerates because worms regenerate, and has acid as some body fluid to tie it to the Dragon.

The whole pathogen-mutagen is iffy. In Prometheus, nobody dies because of direct contact (which would indicate it is a mutagen, with a long period to finish its work, Fifield being in a pool of it for who knows how much) yet in AC it is insta-death to FAUNA (which a patogen). David himself says as much in AC. The pods themselves look more like fungi (we can say this because that took their time to say that), which are not part of FLORA. And why do even claim that they were mutated? Maybe the are plain old mushrooms which absorbed the goop that water brought.

The neomorph is just a waste of time. It's design was a Prometheus reject and the way it reproduce it's just a rehash of Gibson's idea for his Alien 3 script. The only thing new with it is it's agility. But that a growing creature (with its skull not fully formed) of 3-4 pounds could break a spaceship-grade with with headbutts is ridiculous.

Again things in a movie need not be perfect in regards to logic, but that does mean that if it make sense for you in your head they are airtight. And if you start insulting people why are you surprised that they don't respond with compliments?

@chli

Another good post. 

What I find profoundly fascinating is how we all receive the same information slightly differently, which is as you would expect, and then randomly make the same connection. 

Here is a small but gratifying example.

There is a seven-year-old thread which deals with "Kane's son" and one contributor makes the point when they are discussing Ash's reaction that the creature is only doing what it is supposed to do. In other words that complete stranger is implying the creature's behaviour is a day at the office which is my view. 

The thread also deals with the issue of how come an objective unemotional robot is taking a determinedly emotional view of the creature and more to the point knows something about it. The suggestion is in March 2012 that David may begin to deal with this question. 

You can imagine me shouting bingo at these entirely random and disconnected (from me) statements.

The creatures job description is simple to destroy any members of the host species for intervening.

David led on the makeshift theatre table has a conversation with Elizabeth which takes us down the road which will finally answer the issue of how an objective robot can behave when not subject to the defined narrative of its creator.

So your remark about "Kane's son" or is that "and some" can oddly lead us to the more general Bladerunner narrative of mankind's sub-creation not staying on message. 

The poetic context of this argument is that for David Elizabeth represents Paradise (freedom to consent) and Sir Peter Paradise Lost (coercion).

In my story, Kane is the first one to intervene which is interesting given my speculation as to the occupant of the chair and why he was the sole character on board.

"I speculated he refracted and echoed the bible story of  Cain where the Lord did not respect Cain’s sacrifices but his brother Abel, who went on to become the first acolyte. Cain may represent the beginning of the Fall."     

As to another question which came up in the thread in 2012 how come Ash knows so much. As David says to Elizabeth in Chapter 5 Muther is essentially a proxy for Sir Peter so any message you send to earth is to "him". It may be in Indo European but muther can translate and what she doesn't know and never will that she is being deceived and being diverted from the real prize. So Muther and the hyperdynes are being fed a line.

In closing just as you need to understand what evil is in order to understand why it exists the greatest challenge is to explain for one side of the brain enough so one does not become agitated through lack of understanding but balance that with the poetic element so that we become excited and moved.

What interests me is why you are so bitter, Michelle? Don’t patronize. Be kind and generous. Share your knowledge (in a humble way). That’s what saved David in your story . . .

@ignorantGuy

Many thanks for your contribution.

To show that you reflect my view and what was behind my original post. Spelling it out as it were. 

1) The Hammerpedes from worms tells us a great deal about what the Mutagen of Prometheus adds to its target. We will in short order see it repeated in Fifield. Compare the behaviour of the Hammerpede, Fifield and Elizabeth's child which immediately wants to destroy its mother. There isn't a cigarette paper between them. Milburn is gay propositions Fifield and his promiscuity is rewarded by oral rape. You get what you ask for is all over P.    

2) The material in the Urns of Covenant is a pathogen to kill off the entire population of the city. Pathogens lead to disease and death.

3) Leaving aside the logic that the spores would emerge from such pathogenic beginnings their intervention in Act 1 leads to a creature which had been revived after being rejected for P1 and had been slated for various iterations of P2 post-Lindelof. So the creature was slated for Act 1 years before the story used was conceived. It's quite entertaining but in the context of "the mad as a box of frogs, David makes the Xenomorph" perplexing. In storytelling terms, the pathogen creates the neomorph randomly and after years of painstaking research and god knows what David comes up with the creature where is the symmetry, couldn't David do so much better than the random neo? Even more bizarre David and Neo are cool with each other and then we were to have a projected fight between said monsters. How on earth has this any of the grand sweeping monster logic of A and P movies? It hasn't it's monster beats threaded together getting in each others way. As stupid as the final part of Act 1 is all the hysteria from the pilot and your point, it completely undermines the tired 3rd act mashing up Sigourney with poor Katherine.              

To my original point, that's what you get when you make a movie with no underlying thematic or philosophical value. It's a camel designed by a committee that thought fans wanted the monster back. I loved it when Michael said well we at least managed to keep the creation story in with David making the monster. The emphasis in that statement is definitely 'at least.'   

@chli

Perception is everything. if you think I am bitter I am bitter.  

I hope you will be happy to know you could not be further from the truth. My irritation with contributions to this thread goes something like this.

I was very excited by your getting my work.

I was delighted that you wanted to highlight a particular proposition that my work offered. 

I was completely underwhelmed by the responses you got. 

When I responded calling out the poor quality of responses one of the underwhelming posters started seeing me as the problem and subsequently began artificially deconstructing one of my posts.

I saw straight through that.

Have a great evening I completed the big five hike on the Drakensburg here in Kwa Zulu Natal yesterday a dream of 2 years in the making. I am climbing into the Tugela Gorge tomorrow and I adore my location.

As always with these things, you should see these posts before I tone it down. ha ha.

All the very best

Michelle 

No, perception isn’t everything. Postmodernists are wrong. The statement “There is no truth” can’t be true, can it? There is a reality out there. But can we reach it (Kant)?

You also bring your mental state and memories with you wherever you go, don't you (Well, tick off your bucket list)? Actually, you ought to be ashamed. Also, I don't give you permission to use my quotes.

I believe Alien: Prototype clearly explains that Xenomorph traits are inherited from the host chli.  And, maybe, the best host for a Xenomorph is to use a host with a disease (Necromorph example).  

The sins of the father (host) manifest, mutate, and explode in the son (Xenomorph).

"Again things in a movie need not be perfect in regards to logic"

I think Ignorant Guy this with some of what Michelle had Mentioned in her Posts are the THINGS we have to Consider the Most.... that is just as i think you have Stated a Number of Times...

It really is about the STORY and PLOT which is Driven by the Characters and so Tiny Flaws, are what we should Overlook and NOT really be Dragged into every detail, because all that Matters is the Story Arc.... and so somethings are not explained or detailed, i am NOT sure those working on the Project even give some things any LEVEL of Detail and Thought.....

We can Speculate on the Organism, the Goo, and our Speculations and Debates could go into Detail Beyond what those working on the Movie had ever thought... and our Work/Speculation can always proved to be MOOT by Virtue of the Next Movie where those working on the Project can FREELY changed Details to SUIT their Story/Plot..... for Convenience

So your point Ignorant Guy is RIGHT on the Money ;)

I think at LEAST any Future Movie could become LESS Inconsistent, because while Working on ALIEN COVENANT they had came up with a ALIEN Rule-book... and so we can only Assume that means they Finally have how A-Z connects in terms of the Pathogen, Xenomorph and other Related Organisms/Results...

But ALAS..... with Disney in Charge then if we get any Continuation or a Future Movie, then who is to say they would STICK to what ever that ALIEN Rule Book had in it...

Regarding the Hammerpede and Black Goo, we have to Remember this is something that has Evolved, Changed and Depending on what we look at at and what Source then we could be drawn to different Conclusions...

So some Ambiguity is there if you Watch the Movie alone...  the Goo reacted in Various ways with No real Explanation (Spoon Fed on Screen), had they USED some of the Alternative Fifield Concepts then you would be drawn to something a little Different.

The Bottom Line is these are all to show what the Black Goo can do, they was (changed a bit with Fifield) to show us the Experiments and Pathogen on LV-223 has a connection to the Xenomorph on LV-426.   The whole Hammepede Scene is a bit open to Interpretation it really comes down to the Instinct of the Pathogen, and what it seemed to show in General is that what it Infects and Mutates/Evolves (Creates) becomes a HIGHLY Aggressive and a KILLING Machine.

What Michelle has attempted (forgive me if Incorrect) is to give some Deeper Purpose with the Pathogen/Monsters, other than to have be a Case of just a KILLING Machine, or Merely that is only Instinct is Survival and Procreation.

I never read too much into Milburn/Fifields Psyche in regards to that Scene, i looked at it more about HUBRIS... Milburn may be Interested in his Biology and Excited about New Species.... he allowed this Excitement to override his Common Sense (but this was a PLOT Device/Convenience to allow for the Attack Scene)  and so its a case of this DEADLY CRAP (Pathogen) does-not make Lovable Pokemen out of Infected Organisms.. a Infected Bunny Rabbit is not going to be something you want to PET ;)

I think its fine for People to want to add more depth to WHY these things are so Aggressive than just acting on Instinct..... and so in Regards to the OT... well more so the idea of Michelle's then having these Reactions be something thats Pre-Programed is very VALID especially if those who Created this INTEND it to KILL/DESTROY or if this is a Programed Safety Defense Mechanism to Eradicate those (Unintended, Meddling) who come into Contact with this stuff when they SHOULD-NOT as its NOT intended for them..

Forgive me for this Analogy if it makes little Sense or Relevance... if i could go for like a Comic Book like Story of a RACE who Create some Serum that would when Ingested Evolve them into Supermen of Sorts.... then as a Protection Defense you would Program this stuff so that it ONLY Effects your Species Genome/DNA with this GIFT... and any None-Matching Genome would instead suffer another Horrific Result.... be that Death, or some kind of Ebola like Outbreak or be Turned instead to Zombies and Pass on this Curse onto others via Attacking/Biting then Spreading this Curse.... 

In that Analogy such a Safety Measure would Insure other Species can-not Benefit from your Created Super Drug/Serum, and also so they Can-Not Study or Re-Engineer it (as its gets out of control quick) to then reap the Benefits that it would give to its Intended Creators.

But in Closing.... its Fine to look at the Hammerpeed as Intentionally Raping Milburn as it had been implied before that this is what the Face Hugger does by people who worked on ALIEN....  at that time we could Speculate this was Purely a Part of the Organisms Life-Cycle, it had to Rape its Host because this is HOW it would Procreate, and as this is a KIND of Procreation where the MOTHER of the Child to be Born (Chest Buster) has NOT given Consent to Birth and become Pregnant if you would.. with this MONSTER, then indeed this amounts to RAPE.

(In my Rework of Prometheus, i had Milburn have a Chest Buster, and showed a Killed Hammerpede had Tiny Eggs inside, to show more a Connection to the Xenomorph/Procreation Purpose also to tease said FATE to those Chest Busted Cryo Engineers).

I think its Perfectly Fine to however imply/explore that its NOT a Natural Procreative/Survival Instinct but its part of the Organisms Psyche because it Inherited it from the Basic Instinctual Psyche of the Host...

@Ignorant, "The monster is not a reptile by any means imaginable".

Right, so Millburn described it as an 'elongated reptile-like creature' for a bit of fun, I suppose. How is that materially different to my description of a "hostile reptilian form"?

I don't want compliments from anybody, thanks very much.

Well i think thats just Millburns interpretation, and it did appear as some Space Cobra... in the Movie it appeared to more like a Eel than any Reptile...

It moved like a Serpent, but its Skin Texture was more similar to that of say a Eel or Squid Tentacle (not sucker part).  Some of the Props/Production had matched the Concept Work, where it clearly had a Segmented Body like a Worm, so it appeared as a Worm/Eel Hybrid...  Apart from the Head.

But in the Movie we dont make out any Segmented Sections.

I dont think we can really say what it is as its a ALIEN Organism, it had been Evolved/Mutated from Worms but its to the point that little % of Worm DNA remains compared to what the Pathogen had Imprinted.

The Trilobite also had a similar Aesthetic as far as its Tentacles in regards to the Hammerpedes Body.

But i dont think it really matters what we try and compare it to as what we are seeing really is a ALIEN DNA.

"Right, so Millburn described it as an 'elongated reptile-like creature' for a bit of fun, I suppose. How is that materially different to my description of a "hostile reptilian form"?"

Come on hox.  Be reasonable.  

"Hostile reptilian form" is so far away from "elongated reptile-like creature" that we can fly a juggernaut in-between them (sarcasm).

When I look at the Xenomorph, the first thing I think of is reptile (teeth like a small dinosaur, spines on the back, long tail, etc..) but that interpretation is confused immediately with the details seen on the beast.  

Yes, Milburn barked out "reptile" in his description.  

I'm sure, if given the opportunity, Milburn's description would have been updated to include non-reptile traits with the setback his mouth had but he, as well as, Fifield had communication problems shortly after saying "reptile".

BigDave Only a small caveat, there are 3 families of worms, only of which having segmented bodies like the earthworm. Look at this short article about the roundworm https://feluno.weebly.com/roundworms.html# which states that it moves through water like snakes.

Certainly Ignorant Guy ;)

Going back to the TIME of Prometheus and Concept Stages, (Originally we had Centipede Creatures) but looking at the Black Goo it seemed to Evolve Certain Organisms where it would Maintain some of the Organisms Traits but then Replace others with some other Organisms Traits... 

Some of the Concepts for Prometheus and prior (Alien Engineers) had indicated Organisms with a Atheistic/Traits of Mollusca Organisms, The Trilobite Certainly having Quite a lot of that Aesthetic, but also this is how the Face Hugger Stage of STARBEAST was also described.

At that Time we could Ponder or be Drawn to Speculate that the Black Goo had traced its Origins to some Organism that had Characteristics of a Mollusca that for Some Reason the Engineers saw something with this Organisms to Invest in Re-Engineering and Experimenting with them.

Sorry Chli for this reply being OFF-TOPIC.

However... as i said before, and this is in Regards to Speculation and Broader Exploration of any Genetic Memory concerning the Xenomorph.

I think a lot of Fans expected the Franchise to be explored in a more ALIEN and Lovecraftian way than what we got... And while a bit OFF-TOPIC and especially in Context to the Idea/Story that Michelle was exploring.

I think that some Lovecraftian Elements should be Explored, i think going back to the Starbeast should be Explored, and so if the Starbeast was Explored as a more Lovecraftian/Mollusk like Species that had a Parasitical Procreation where say they can PASS-ON some Genetic Memory with their Procreation, then this would make this Species being able to IN EFFECT be able to be Re-Incarnated. 

The Original Idea of Jon Spaights which i explored here THE ENGINEERS: THE VERGE OF GODHEAD

Had shown the Engineers were TRYING to gain some kind of Immortality, but in this idea it was to attempt to By-Pass a Physical Form  here is roughly what that idea was "The Engineers believe themselves to be on the verge of a Great Transcendence in which they will abandon their physical form and flight into the ten-dimensional multiverse as Creatures of pure energy"

This was NEVER really Explored in the Prequels, However when trying to make a Connection and looking at STARBEAST then if the Starbeast Organism has a Procreation where they could PASS-ON their Memories and become Re-incarnated then this would be some kind of Immortality

Surely this would be something a Ancient Race of would be wanna be Gods would be interested in, in a attempt to gain some kind of Re-Incarnation... so that would give a Good Reason for their Experiments.

This could work with Michelle's idea of this being Unintended for the use of Mankind and maybe the Engineers and so that if a Starbeast was Explored then it could be that NO-MATTER how they try, the Engineers could ONLY produce Organisms with the Parasitic Life-Cycle and NEVER gain the Genetic Memory, or that the Starbeast Spores could ONLY pass this onto a Certain Host Organism and so any Organism like Humanoids would instead be DEALT a Curse instead...

Funny enough some 250+ Years after ALIEN the USM Company manage to Clone/Obtain a Xenomorph from Ripley DNA....  but HOWEVER... it is the Ripley Clone with MIXED DNA that had Gifted Genetic Memory which we can attribute to the Xenomorph DNA.

So in this IDEA... then Ironically Ripley 8 has become what the Engineers maybe had attempted to Achieve?

This of-course is just to Speculate how we could FIT in a Deeper Connection to Genetic Memory and the Xenomorph, it is in No-Way to suggest this was ever the Plan.