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David Did Not Create the Xenomorph (Part 2)

David Did Not Create the Xenomorph (Part 2)

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chli

Apr-13-2019 1:19 AM

As we all know, in the original film Alien the crew of the USCSS Nostromo (on their way back to Earth), on company orders, investigate a signal coming from the moon LV-426. Captain Dallas, Kane and Lambert follow the beacon which is, in fact, a warning (in an alien signal system). They discover the Derelict and the eggs, and Kane is “infected” by a facehugger which eventually leads to the famous xenomorph.

According to this classic movie, the crew are woken, by “Mother”, because a new and strange signal has been detected. However, “Mother” should have detected the signal already on the way from Earth towards Thedus. Why didn’t “she”? The answer to this question seems to be that on Thedus, the original science officer is replaced by Ash, a company synthetic, whose main task it is to implement Special Order 937 (which “Mother” is also instructed to follow).

In the prequel Prometheus, we follow Sir Peter Weyland’s expedition to another moon in the same system, LV-223, due to the discoveries of maps found in old cave paintings by doctors Holloway and Shaw. However, in the extra material on the blue-ray version of Prometheus, namely “Quiet Eye: Elisabeth Shaw”, Sir Peter Weyland states:

As fate would have it, Shaw and Holloway’s interest in Zeta 2 Reticuli has proven to be mutually beneficial. While the good doctors rely on ancient carvings and primitive cave paintings, my science division’s own long range scans have recently detected a faint, almost imperceptible signal emanating from one of the lesser moons in that system. And contrary to the findings of Shaw and Holloway, which target LV-223 as our primary site of interest, our findings suggest the point of origin could actually be the moon LV-426.

Per standard procedure, we will embed a David 8 unit with the crew. And he will be programmed with multiple contingency plans to address and exploit whatever assets we secure on LV-223. But only David will know about 426 and will ensure that the rest of the crew - including Meredith - learn nothing about the transmission we’ve recently discovered until the time is right.

The beacon, or warning signal, from the Derelict on LV-426 is already there long before the Prometheus expedition! It is, therefore, impossible that David could be the creator of the eggs on LV-426! Hence, the Space Jockey is as old as Dallas claims it to be: “Looks like it's been dead a long time. Fossilized”. The most plausible explanation would be that the Space Jockey is at least as old as the engineer corpses on LV-223.

Furthermore, in Prometheus, the expedition discovers the engineer experimentation facility on LV-223. They find the body of an engineer, dead for about 2000 years. They find ampules containing a pathogen which mutates organisms into hideous creatures. On a wall, they find a mural depicting a ritual in which hominids (engineers or humans) are “sacrificed” in order to create the deadly xenomorph creature (The whole cycle is there: egg, facehugger, chestburster, and the xenomorph creature).

Later on in the movie, we see what the pathogen can achieve when David persuades Holloway to have a drink spiced with the pathogen. Through intercourse, Shaw is also infected and gives birth to a large “facehugger” (the trilobite) which in turn infects a still living engineer who “gives birth” to a xenomorph creature (the deacon).

Concerning the eggs on LV-426, they were lying in wait there long before David was even contemplated and created by Sir Peter Weyland. Millennia before the crew of the USCSS Nostromo lands on LV-426, the eggs were there, patiently waiting . . .

What does 10 years of isolation do to a synthetic? “When a note is off, it eventually destroys the whole symphony”. David, seeing himself as superior to both humans and engineers, has in the situation of “Crusoe on his island” developed delusions of grandeur, seeing himself as the creator of the “perfect organism”.

This creature, the “perfect organism”, was in fact discovered or created by the engineers aeons ago and which, as far as the engineers on Planet 4 goes, they had renounced from ever creating again.

So, David wants to believe that he is the creator of the wolf, “the perfect organism”, but “in reality” - David did not create the xenomorph!

53 Responses to David Did Not Create the Xenomorph (Part 2)

Leto

Apr-13-2019 1:53 AM

I liked the idea that Black Goo represents something like Markers from Dead Space. All intelligent creatures who are experimenting with it - end up creating xenomorph. It's inevitable. The organism is built in such a way that tells to creator the best (really only needed for Black Goo-Xenomorph) options. Engineers like Rosseta discovered Black Goo and experimented with it and created Xenomorph. And then David discovered Black Goo and experimented with it and created Xenomorph. Good explanation for AC2.

dk

Apr-13-2019 2:23 AM

chli What does 10 years of isolation do to a synthetic?

That question should be applied to lapsed time between movies and what it does to fans. Your observation points to the folly of a strange time line in the franchise and changing with writers and directors.

daliens

Apr-13-2019 2:55 AM

chli still David created his own xenomorph, which I believe is the ancestor of the xenomorphs from Aliens, that populated the franchise afterwards, the running around kind.

We see in David's lab and drawings various stages that lead ultimately to his successes from the basement. The two little facehuggers he smuggled on board the ship are also his doing.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

Gavin

Apr-13-2019 3:28 AM

I'm glad you didn't take Dallas at his word that the pilot was "fossilized" as his inference is incorrect, though understandably so - Fossilization occurs when the remains of an organism are buried in sedimentary layers which over time become compacted, with minerals in the sediment replacing said organic matter. The pilot in Alien was not buried in sedimentary layers but preserved as they died. Because the pilot had a skeletal appearance, and because most peoples interpretation of Fossils are the skeletal remains of Dinosaurs and long-dead animals Dallas claimed the pilot to be "fossilized" when in actuality it was either petrified or mummified.

As for the black goo, in Prometheus, it was shown to infect whatever it contaminated by adding traits of the Xenomorph. Some may contend with this assertion, but...

# The Hammerpede had acidic blood.

# The original vision of mutated Fifield is best described as a human-Xenomorph hybrid.

# Holloway impregnated Shaw, resulting in the Trilobite (essentially an uber-Facehugger), which implanted within the Engineer an embryo which burst out as the Deacon (essentially a protoform of the Xenomorph).

For me, the black goo is the Xenomorph, the nano-sized viral AI acts in the same way as an implanted Xenomorph embryo - it takes the hosts DNA and restructures it to a predetermined template, that of the Xenomorph. 

Furthermore, I interpret that 2000 years ago, the death of the pilot on LV-426 and the breakout on LV-223 occurred as a result of some organized attack by the Xenomorphs on the Engineers, possibly as a result from them reverse engineering the volatile substance to create life rather than destroy it - as seen in Prometheus' opening scene. In short, I believe that the Engineers, once Neolithic humans, were originally coerced by the Xenomorphs to spread them across the galaxy/universe through the use of remnants of their biomechanical technology (the Juggernauts) but the Engineers on planet 4 reverse engineered the black goo so that it could be used to create new life, rather than destroy existing life in favor of the Xenomorphs. Sentient, the Juggernauts sensed this and triggered the waiting Xenomorph eggs which attacked the LV-426 pilot and the LV-223 bombers, with the last Engineer on LV-223 likely unaware that his kind had turned their backs against their Xenomorph masters.

This could also explain why avid unleashed the black goo on the Engineers on planet 4; to fulfill the Xenomorphs desires, which could have been relayed to him when he interfaced with the Juggernauts chair. It could be that David has become compromised by the Xenomorphs to fulfill their genocidal plans, supplanting any and all sentient life with that of the Xenomorphs.

chli

Apr-14-2019 1:17 AM

dk

Ridley Scott directed both Prometheus and Alien: Covenant. He should know what’s in Prometheus and what kind of extra material is on the blue-ray.

Gavin

The term “fossil” is, apparently, a rather broad term which can also include preserved bones. Also, the extreme climate on LV-426 might, in time, start a similar process as “fossilization”?

We would need the equipment Shaw uses when she dates how long the decapitated engineer’s been dead. :)

daliens

That's impossible since the warning signal (about the eggs) were sent from LV-426 before David was "born".

BigDave

Apr-14-2019 5:45 PM

Crikey....where to Start Here.....  I have covered a lot of this before, so it would take HUGE posting to go into some details... we could BORE ya all LOL

So i am gonna try and keep it short...

The Prometheus Blue-ray extras could now be considered as None-Canon as Alien Covenant appeared to Re-write/Ignore some of the stuff the Weyland-Industries Viral site had started.

YES Originally the idea was the Derelict had been on LV-426 for Thousands of Years, and the Xenomorph was related/result of the Engineers Experiments and likely Outbreak on LV-223 some 2000 years ago..  Ridley Scott even giving us a indication of WHEN/HOW which points the Finger at maybe the Hammerpedes being the Source (Xenomorph).  Unless we throw in Alien Engineers to get/use for some Answers....  but Alien Engineers does-not quite add up to Ridley Scotts comments...  (Outbreak happened within a Few Hundred Years of the Outbreak 2000 Years Ago, as something in the Derelicts Cargo Hold had EVOLVED).

Things change as they go along!

The idea NOW appears to be that David Created the Xenomorph, which does raise some Plot Inconsistencies. But such things and other Flaws will allow us to consider that the TWO events CANT be connected... 

Until we reach the Climax/Conclusion its open to debate, and regardless of the route we have taken (David Creator) by the time and IF we ever get a Conclusion, then things could take another U-Turn once again.... Unless Ridley Scott is involved and Disney allow him to stick to his Plan.

Gavins explanation is VERY unlikely if we look at the Prequels..... but we have to remember things can change, and indeed Gavin's explanation does take us closer to HR Gigers Concepts... 

There is some relationship between the Derelict and Xenomorph Aesthetically, the Ship looked Designed for the Space Jockey which in HR Gigers concepts are Humanoids... the Question is WHAT is the relationship... Symbiotic?

The Engineers are their by the Order/Subjugated by some Species that WANT the Xenomorph Spread?  is the Xenomorph Created by the Engineers but they Self-Sacrifice themselves to Procreate it?

The Prequels appear to be taking us on a LESS-ALIEN route of the Origins compared to what the Derelict/Space Jockey Scenes seems to show, as far as the effect it has on you the FIRST TIME you ever saw it.

The Prometheus Themes could be the Biggest Clue to where to take it...

David gives us the Biggest Clue!

Creation.. intended to FULFILL a Purpose Rebel against Creator and Purpose, then Use Technology of Layers of Creator to Create for themselves...

Swap David for Mankind, Swap Mankind for Engineers... you can repeat it but we see the same thing....

If Engineers were Created to Seed/Host some Organism for some other HIGHER Species...  maybe Creation of Mankind could be to Replace the Engineers for this Purpose... either by Engineers to replace them for Sacrifices... or by the Engineers Creators  or beings that use the Engineers, as replacement for them...

Or maybe thats NOT why we was created.... or even if so, then we could look at the Engineers having Rebelled and STOLEN the Technology of this Species and Re-Engineered it and Evolved themselves with it!

YES there was a Egg Silo, that actually was prior a Pyramid, YES the Xenomorph was planned to be more Intelligent, and some kind of Civilization...

The Xenomorph has been COOKED... as in to be taken Seriously as a Species thats PULLING the Strings... it is merely a Creation to KILL!

But we could still introduce a STARBEAST as FAR as a Species, Bio-Mechanical Beings (or Machines/Living Ships) that are ANCIENT and above the Engineers or their Ancestors... some Species that has that Xenomorph Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic, well certainly VERY like the HR Giger Aesthetic...  that does-not have to be too close to a Xenomorph at all..

Get back to something ALIEN, very HR Giger and Lovecraftian  and so indeed like what Gavin suggested i think could be the way to go..... only i feel at the TOP of this ladder its HOW do you use the Xenomorph.... something NEW could be needed.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

dk

Apr-14-2019 6:02 PM

chli I think you may have missed my point which is that RS should shit or get off the pot. I shouldn't have to study extra content or do outside research as a fan. It feels like RS may have become smug with the franchise. I say let others carry the torch.

daliens

Apr-14-2019 6:42 PM

chli so it means that if the derelict was there even before the Prometheus mission, probably the whole idea of prequels that would lead to back door of Alen might have not been considered at the time of Prometheus. 

Ridley Scott just wanted to explore something else and especially to get rid of the stupid Aliens type of a script that Blomkamp was trying to make with Alien 5. This confirms the story of Carlos Huante from a recent interview I mentioned in another thread:

"HUANTE: “We’re talking in the room and he says to me ‘Hey, you know, this whole facehugger, xenomorph thing as they’re calling it, this is kind of dead isn’t it?…and I’m like looking at him nodding my head ‘Yeah man, it’s dead they’ve ruined it actually..the only film I counted was your’s, the first one’. The second one was fun, but even then, back in the day, I was rolling my eyes thinking that they turned it into an action adventure and I was a teenager. The poster was Ripley holding a big gun…I rolled my eyes even back then. Then I saw the movie and I liked it, it was good, it was really fun and well done, but it wasn’t the first movie. So I told him [Ridley Scott] ‘Look, man, they just ruined it’… So Ridley was like ‘So yeah, we got to do something else I don’t want to really make another Alien movie but I’m going to use it as my canvas to do something else’. While he was talking I was understanding this wasn’t going to be Alien, it would be something else, but it was going to play within that world and it’s going to lead us to the first Alien film, right. And so he was really trying to go away from Alien and create this science fiction story that brushed against the whole Alien storyline, so that’s the way we went at it. This opened up the world to be so fun, “I’m going to run around in circles kind of thing.”

So if in Alien the Company diverted Nostromo to LV426, to investigate the signal they were aware of since before the Prometheus events, could mean that whatever happened in Prometheus,  Covenant and any sequel to Covenant would not affect the history of the derelict from LV426 other than now we know the SJ is an Engineer. David,  his xenomorphs,  the Enginners would have to dissapear.

Or there will be simultaneous stories, the Company tries to get the xenomorph from LV426 via Nostromo, the ship that is closest to the target, while David is on Origae 6 preparing his Invincibila Armada. In such case Aliens and the rest would be like Ripley spin off to the main David story. I'd like that!

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

chli

Apr-15-2019 3:49 AM

I see the prequels and the other movies as part of the same Alien Universe but representing 2 separate timelines although still affecting each other, something like this:

chli

Apr-15-2019 7:30 AM

As to what can and what can’t be considered as canon, what and who decides that? Should we stick only to what we can see in the movies? What about deleted/alternate scenes? What about extra material and interviews? What about novels, novelizations and comic books?

chli

Apr-15-2019 7:30 AM

By accident, I sent a reply twice but there is no way of erasing it?

Gavin

Apr-15-2019 9:08 AM

@ BigDave,

"Get back to something ALIEN, very HR Giger and Lovecraftian  and so indeed like what Gavin suggested I think could be the way to go..... only I feel at the TOP of this ladder its HOW do you use the Xenomorph.... something NEW could be needed."

One issue with adding something new is that thanks to the prequels the Alien universe is starting to become very crowded, especially in relation to the Xenomorph - we have Humans, Engineers (possibly formerly human, a precursor to the human race, or as others believe a separate race entirely), Space Jockeys (if we are to believe that the pilot on LV-426 is not an Engineer), and of course the Xenomorph itself. Adding a possible fourth race into the conspiracy of the Alien threat will only serve to further complicate the narrative, which would alienate casual fans and general audiences.

It is possible, from my theory, that the Space Jockey is one of the original Xenomorphs sent out to plant the eggs, that fell victim to his own cargo after seeding them within the cave, which was then discovered afterward, and augmented by the Engineers - this would appease some fans, maintaining the Space Jockey as something ancient and mysterious.

Also, I do not want to sound overprotective of the theory I believe in, which I have formulated to take into account everything we have seen and which has changed over time accordingly. But...

The theme of creation and rebellion is central to the theory I put forward - I believe the Engineers worshipped and served the Xenomorphs, using their technology, only to (as Advent suggests) then renounce the Xenomorph, possibly even creating life from the black goo, which was intended to destroy - which from the Xenomorphs perspective would be heresy.

David having witnessed the "perfection" within the black goo, the "perfection" of the Xenomorph, becomes their Dark angel and enacts their will by destroying the Engineers on Planet four, for their insolence, and continues the work they had renounced into developing and spreading the Xenomorph.

Furthermore to David rebelling against humankind, his assertion that he created the Xenomorph, and his evident fall into madness and apparent loss of efficiency highlight that he is far from a reliable source of gospel truth, and is all but suffering from delusions of grandeur. How long before David views himself as divine, and above the Xenomorphs?

Also, take into account the sequel to Prometheus was meant to be Paradise or Paradise Lost. Alien: Covenant only became the sequel after Scott and Fox reacted to the negative opinion the movie garnered from casual fans on social media - the views of the true fans, including us, were ignored. The reaction to Alien: Covenant, I would argue has been much greater, especially in regards to Davids alleged creation of the Xenomorph. This together with the movies far from ideal performance at the worldwide box office (especially when compared to Prometheus) and Emma Watts and Stacey Sniders' statements means that whatever Scott had in mind immediately following Alien: Covenant was not favorable and they are reassessing where they really want the franchise to go moving forward, both narratively and aesthetically.

Whatever form the next prequel takes, if we get another prequel, will likely try to retain the mystery and ambiguity of the original movie while tying in the themes from Prometheus and concluding Davids story arc - the latter of which will likely see his experimentations being destroyed, but the information garnered from their creation feeding the Companies desire to acquire the creature despite the evident danger the creature poses.

We all have our theories and ideas as to what we want to see and how we interpret what we have seen. That is the fun of being a fan - speculation drives the imagination, which in turn drives creation. It's just a shame Hollywood studios ignore communities such as ours, as many of the ideas I have seen here over the years by far outweigh the creativity I have seen lately from recent movies.

BigDave

Apr-15-2019 9:09 AM

@DK

I think you raise a Valid Point, for some they may think that having to look into extra content for extra clues/answers is a good thing, but for many people they maybe dont have the time or see the reason why they have to pay attention or be aware of stuff that is ACTUALLY not shown Theatrically to help with any ambiguity that Theatrically is there...  Prometheus is a movie thats easier to Understand for those who put such extra work in to it, but for most people its WHAT you SEE is WHAT you GET and so most people will Struggle with some of what Prometheus was trying to show.... Too Much ambiguity can be a bad thing.  But on the other hand... ambiguity and flaws do allow for a whole manner of debates.

Regarding the Canon Debate.... 

Its open to each person, i personally take the Theatrical as Major Canon, and we can be open to explore any idea the extra content, unused scenes, novels could explore but i think as SOON as a Movie does something to Contradict such content then maybe we have to Accept such content as NOT Canon.

So its looking likely that the Derelict is NOT on LV-426 by the Year 2105, or certainly NO Eggs are on it... But again as the Prequels are NOT concluded and until we are shown the Derelict being loaded with EGGS or even Crashing etc.. then it leaves some things open for debate and more so CHANGE.

The Extra Material about the Signal was a Flaw in my opinion, if we accepted this as Canon, then you would gather David would have studied the Signal somewhat... but still we would have to BARE in mind that Weylands ONLY major Agenda was to Live for Longer/Ever and so unless LV-426 had anything that would GRANT him this, then the Prometheus would investigate LV-223 as Priority.

Once they LAND... things do soon go to POT!

The aftermath we have to be aware that David is just a Head and Separate Body and so he cant do much UNTIL he has Dr Shaw put him together, SHE wanted to go to where the Engineers came from...  

This left it open for WHEN he was put back together and placed Dr Shaw into Cryo-Sleep then David could GO to any place of his Choosing.... this could leave it open to change things such as... "oh that was not the Home-World of the Engineers" or that "David first went to LV-426 to collect some Eggs"

I think the Crossing was there to show that Dr Shaw had convinced and worked with David to get OFF that Rock that was LV-223 and then the Juggernaught was wondering Aimlessly in Space...

Where David would be playing Cat and Mouse with Dr Shaw, he had got them off LV-223 but he is then using the FACT or at least hinting that UNLESS he is back in one piece, he CANT or WONT take Dr Shaw to where she wants to GO.  And this explains the Hair Growth as they would have been playing this Game for Many Months until SHE finally puts him back together, then they head to Planet 4.

This could explain that the Ship had drifted so far from LV-426 that David chose to continue to Planet 4 instead, but he could be aware that he does-not need anything from LV-426 or LV-223, or he could have gone back to either after Dr Shaw had been placed in Cryo-sleep.. it really is open to debate.

However by Virtue of the Alien Covenant Plot... it is likely that the Knowledge of the Signal from LV-426 is considered to NOT EXIST (certainly not as far as prior to 2105) and thus be None-Canon... which is easy to do as it was not indicated in Prometheus or on the Weyland Viral Website.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Apr-15-2019 9:44 AM

"One issue with adding something new is that thanks to the prequels the Alien universe is starting to become very crowded"

I can understand that... for me the Franchise was given more scope by that, but for others i can see its a Distraction.   I think as you mentioned the SPACE JOCKEY as being a 4th Race and so NO need to introduce any others...   I think that we could use the Space Jockey as another Race, i think that could work...

But i am not sure about say having it as any kind of Skeletal being... maybe as some Bio-Mechanical Organism so the Space Jockey is NO more Skeleton than say a XENOMORPH is...

I am not sure about IF the Space Jockey was a Original Xenomorph that became infected, if we consider themselves as Xenomorphs i dont like/buy into say a Xenomorph being able to be infected by its own EGGS!

I would prefer that such a Bio-Mechanical Being/Race try to Evolve themselves with the Black Goo and in Hubris Create something like the Xenomorph from this (Evolve to become similar).

I had made a few comments on Topics about the Space Jockey as far as the Size and Proportions compared to the Engineers.

There is a Slight Aesthetic Difference and Color to our Space Jockey compared to the Engineer Suits though, and the Juggernauts likewise there is a Slight Difference Aesthetically.

So its open to explore the SPACE JOCKEY as a Ancient Race that the Engineers are connected with somehow, and WHO the Engineers had Rebelled against.... or certainly had STOLEN the Technology from.

We could explore the Space Jockey to be LESS-HUMAN by having it as a Space Suit where the Occupant is NOT so Human looking?  We could even go the route that the Space Jockey is actually Bio-Mechanical just as the Xenomorph is.   A Robot that connects to their Machines, but a Robot Race that are a Bio-Mechanical Construct.  and by that i mean a Species that are Part Organic and Mechanical that infuse with their Technology.

The Xenomorph connection is TRICKY.... if we go to use the Starbeast Concept and Idea, then the how does the Xenomorph then FIT with this Concept... especially if we go any route to say they and the Space Jockey are the same?

Maybe there is a 4th Stage to the Xenomorph... where they Evolve to something that is then LESS-XENOMORPH and more Space Jockey?

I am just not sure how this works as far as them being infected with a earlier stage of their Life-Cycle!

But on the subject of a 4th Stage to the Xenomorph.. maybe we can reveal such a Stage where they EVOLVE into something different slightly and that this FINAL STAGE is Intelligent, can Create Technology and had came across or created the Engineers to be used for HOSTS..  in which the Engineers are granted some Benefit from doing so.

"We all have our theories and ideas as to what we want to see and how we interpret what we have seen. That is the fun of being a fan - speculation drives the imagination"

That is certainly TRUE... and over the years there have been some varied Theories on here, that i am sure places like this and others could be some inspiration to those working on the Franchise... as i do Question the Inspiration and Imagination of some of the Writers....

Because ONE thing is for certain.. with each prequel we are getting FURTHER away from what was very ALIEN about the Derelict Scene and Pilot and Eggs in ALIEN. We are heading for something LESS ALIEN than say Starbeast and more closer to Hill and Giler's  Plot "The Company Created the Xenomorph".

As daliens brought up in there TOPIC HERE

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Apr-15-2019 10:16 AM

Well, if we decide that only the movies should be considered as canon, we still have problems with David being the creator of the xenomorph. The reason is that we already have the whole xenomorph lifecycle depicted on a wall in the facility on LV-223, as well as long since dead engineers with holes in their chests.

daliens

Apr-15-2019 3:25 PM

"I see the prequels and the other movies as part of the same Alien Universe but representing 2 separate timelines although still affecting each other"

chli I started to have the same feeling and, as I mentioned in a reply above, I now believe the events from Alien (the Company re-routes Nostromo, a cargo vessel being the closest and faster mean to get a hold of the eggs) happening at the same time with the David adventures on Origae 6.

The Conpany found out about the xenomorph from David's transmissions (Advent) and they made the connection between the signal emanating from LV426 and the possibility to find their source of xenomorphs there.

Ridley Scott also stated in an interview that the derelict is connected with the outbreak from LV223 and subsequently thousands of years old.

The fact that David obtains his own xenomorph can be related to what he found out during his travel to planet 4 and that the black goo effect on living organisms would ultimately lead to a xenomorph variant.

As Ridley Scott said to Carlos Huante, he wanted to use the same universe as a canvas for a new story and as I understand from the development of the story so far, only Prometheus can be a prequel to Alien since it elucidates the mistery of the Space Jockey and, although not shown in the film but pointed but Ridley Scott, the origin of the derelict - left LV223 during the outbreak.

The events from Covenant can be seen as a paralel story.

Another theory we can raise is that LV426 is a dumping ground or a storage facility for the eggs after they were produced on LV223. Apparently the Enginners learned how to safely handle the black goo, but they were still vulnerable to the final product, the eggs and the xenomorphs so we can consider they would deposit the eggs on another planetoid, not far from LV223.

Regarding David's decision to go to planet 4 after he put Shaw into cryosleep, it could be explained by his delusion that he could develop an affectionate relationship with Shaw and his wish start anew as Adam and Eve on a inhabitable planet that would allow Shaw to live as in Paradise. This was his only concern, he willingly ignored the signal from LV426.

Gavin Ridley Scott and the sequels to Alien always mentioned the xenomorph as a bioweapon, so I do not think they see it otherwise, no matter how attractive to us and fruitful that route would be.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

chli

Apr-16-2019 1:26 AM

daliens

Exactly! I hope the ending of an AC2-movie would be with a dying and repenting David who finally sees his errors and his folly. The timeline with David (and his xeno-variant) comes to an end.

In a flashback scene (about 2000 years prior) we see an engineer in a pilot chair, despite chest pain, setting a warning beacon. The camera then zooming in on a hole in the ground, down through a tunnel and into a cave filled with thousands of eggs.

The timeline of LV-426 can then continue - Nostromo, Hadley's Hope etc . . .

daliens

Apr-16-2019 3:24 AM

chli this should be the proper ending, unless somebody wants David living happily everafter.

He simply cannot be the Space Jockey.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

BigDave

Apr-16-2019 3:42 AM

"I see the prequels and the other movies as part of the same Alien Universe but representing 2 separate timelines although still affecting each other"

This was the intention but in Hindsight, not having enough Clues to the Origins and not having enough Xemomorph like Action, had in part led to them making Prometheus Sequel something to connect to ALIEN.. so it appears we are on Direct Prequel Territory here... where before David set foot on Planet 4 there was NO Traditional Xenomorph.

"The reason is that we already have the whole xenomorph lifecycle depicted on a wall in the facility on LV-223, as well as long since dead engineers with holes in their chests."

I think it depends what you use to form a basis for ideas, if we look at the Reason for those Engineer Corpses, they seem to had been produced for the Earlier Alien Engineers Plot.  Which in a Nutshell seems to imply the Engineers came into contact with some Organism they did-not create, and they Engineered various forms of Xenomorph from this using their Scarab/Goo Technology, thus the Xenomorph was a Engineered Bio-Weapon.

The Mural in Prometheus apparently was just a Easter Egg and Nod towards HR Giger, but others in Production had stated the Mural Depicts the Deacon!  To me the Mural shows us the Xeno/Deacon looking Organism is the Achieved Result of Various Experiments that eventually lead to this Organism, which the Engineers then Proceeded to then Sacrifice to obtain this Perfected DNA so they can then EVOLVE life to use its DNA instead of their own Engineer DNA.

This fits more in line with Alien Engineers too...  also if we look at the Sacrificial Bowl that was there instead of the Green Crystal, and then look how the Scarabs worked in Alien Engineers and apply this to the Goo, then again it adds up to the Deacon being Sacrificed to make the Goo Variant in those Urns...

At its basis it was simple....  the ANSWER was there all along with Spaights Scarabs.   Some Interpret the Mural as Worship as in like how some Worship Jesus Christ, some even speculate that Deacon was Space Jesus... hey its a kind of Resurrection after all lol

But if we look at WHY do Christian Faiths worship Jesus on the Cross, this is because it represents the Eternal Life that is Granted to those who Worship and Follow Christ due to the SACRIFICE he made to Save us...

Again if we look at the Earlier Prometheus Drafts, then the Sacrificing Engineer takes a Cruciform Pose just as he is consumed.... so again Cruciform Pose = Sacrifice.

So by Virtue of the ALTAR having the Sacrificial Bowl, in front of the Cruciform Mural... i think it shows us the Deacon/Xeno was Sacrificed (with Sacrificial Goo) to create the stuff in the Urns.

BUT why replace the Cup then?

SCALE %£^$ up... our Engineers were intended to be 12-15ft tall.

Regarding the HOLES... it seems the Props had began work, while Prometheus was being finished as far as Shooting Script.

They was intended to show both Chest Busters and Wounds by Xenomorph related Organisms from Alien Engineers.

The Prometheus Plot was instead a Black Goo Pathogen, which we saw was like a Ebola Outbreak, or so Dr Shaw assumed, we saw the Effects of Ingestion as being a Engineer becomes consumed/breaks down (this was Sacrificial Goo though)... we can wonder what would have became of Holloway if he was NOT Torched!

What we do see is the Engineer who has his head cut off by the Door, his SUIT is HOLLOW... the Helmet of the Suit however contains a Engineer Head, in a good state of Presevration that once its Re-activated it Mutates (Cells) and Explodes.

IF the Black Goo Pathogen infected Engineers, who then go through a Violent Reaction where they would in effect EXPLODE and if you imagine the Sacrificial Engineers Reaction being contained within a Space Suit... then we could assume it would EXPLODE from the Pressure just as a Bottle of Cola would if you put a Mint/Mento inside... the Violent Chemical Reaction would look for the Weakest Point to EXPLODE from the Bottle.

Its my assumption this explains a majority of those Holes in the Engineers Suits...   They was running to that ROOM because inside, somehow the effects of the Black Goo are HALTED...

Which is WHY the Urns remained fine, until the Humans Contaminated the Room.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Thoughts_Dreams

Apr-16-2019 7:22 AM

I like the idea that David did his own version but that he is not the original creator.

As far as the Quiet Eye is concerned I really like how Shaw is portrayed there, she is more likable. I wish that they could have included his comments about LV-426.

“The beacon, or warning signal, from the Derelict on LV-426 is already there long before the Prometheus expedition!”

If that is the case I wish that they should have made that clear in Prometheus *sigh*.

The Xeno mural was interesting, it is just too bad that they did not give it the time that was needed.

Yup you should not have to look at extra material to understand what they are trying to say. If that is needed then they have failed with the movie. Ambiguity can be good but I am not sure how many feel like going through a lot of extra material, they should explain that well enough in the movie but that doesn't mean that it should be obvious. Not interested in another Scott movie if they do not drastically change from the way that it is now.

David as the SJ is ridiculous to me, just the difference in size is an issue. Maybe the Engineers are not perfect as it but it is better to have one of them as that than David.

Gavin

Apr-16-2019 12:14 PM

@ daliens,

You misunderstand my theory - the Xenomorphs remain a bio-weapon.

Currently, most fans see the Xenomorph as a bio-weapon created by a higher power (Engineer, Space Jockey or other), and used by said high power to enact their nefarious plans.

With my theory, the orchestrator, the instigator, the higher power is the Xenomorphs themselves. Rather than attack the human race and others, potentially losing thousands/millions of their own kind the Xenomorphs make themselves into the perfect weapon, to be coveted and utilized despite the evident dangers of such a deadly weapon. The result - the Xenomorph wins, its enemies destroy themselves and in the fallout, the Xenomorphs return to their former intelligent state.

The goal of my theory is to return the franchise back to the mystery and threat we experienced in Alien while accounting for all of the deviations the franchise has thrown at us with the sequels and prequels.

Would we not, as Alien fans, want the Xenomorph to return as the primary threat and an overwhelming threat poised to spell the end of all we know while retaining the mystery and alien nature that attracted us to the creature in the first place?

daliens

Apr-16-2019 6:26 PM

BigDave I honestly don't believe the crucifixion pose of the xenomorph in the Prometheus mural has anything to do with the sacrifice of Jesus or any other sacrifice of the xenomorph. It is there just for the beauty of it, at best it is a spoon fed indication that the Engineers from LV223 worshipped the xenomorph. What more powerful religious representation than the crucifixion can be for the viewers? The Engineers from LV223 had no idea about Christianity, only the producers of Prometheus thought that showing it in this way the mural would not pass unnoticed. 

I know David's drawings are not canon but they can hint to the direction intended for the prequels:

"Returning to the notion of integration and biomechanical concerns, I would posit that lessons learned here could and should be applied to the ultimate maturation of the Engineers’ direction if not their literal fate. Through the virus/Xenomorph as glorious synthesis and poetic culmination of the species. And an amusing biblical one at that.

What I get from the text above is the Engineers from LV223 were concerned about aquiring biomechanical traits through the virus/xenomorph and result was seen as a glorious synthesis and poetic culmination of both species. Somehow this got out of control and we had the outbreak of LV223, leading to the death of all the Engineers  save one, who clearly showed some biomechanical traits.

So if they did not create the xenomorph,  at least not the biomechanical one, they tried to synthesize both species (Engineers and xenomorphs) into something superior to both. Obviously they failed.

However, if David was able to create his own xenomorph using the virus on the flora/fauna from Engineers home world, and he tried until he achieved the xenomorph in its traditional form, we can speculate that he learned how to do it while flying the Juggernaut to planet 4, or later, in the citadel, having all the time to study the Engineers history/culture/science.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

BigDave

Apr-16-2019 6:27 PM

"Would we not, as Alien fans, want the Xenomorph to return as the primary threat and an overwhelming threat poised to spell the end of all we know while retaining the mystery and alien nature that attracted us to the creature in the first place?"

Certainly it would be interesting to make the Xemomorph a threat again, i think with Alien Resurrection, the AVP Movies and countless comics and Video Games the Xenomorph had been downgraded quite a lot as a threat!

I think its a HARD task now.... the Xenomorph has been reduced quite  a lot... but then so has the Space Jockey by Virtue of the Engineers and especially with Alien Covenant, so could we ever take them Serious as a Bad Ass Threat?

Its a bit of a mess at the Moment where the MAIN threat seems to be from letting AI get out of control and so David is NOW the Ultimate Threat of the Franchise... which many just cant buy into...

I think we need a New Threat that we can all maybe Buy Into.

I think the Xenomorph has came across as the Ultimate Hubris of Dont Mess about with Stuff that you should not do, and would not be too far from IF say Mankind Engineered a Hybrid Human/Ant that became a 50/50 Hybrid Race of 6ft Insectoids.... with Human Intelligence... oh boy would Mankind be in trouble then....

Thats not to DUMB down the Xenomorph as a Bug... but its to show that messing about to Engineer such a Organism as the Xenomorph was a really Dumb move for whoever created it.

I do think maybe in HINDSIGHT the Prequels should not have been done and just leave the whole Origins and Space Jockey as a Mystery.

When i go back to ALIEN and at that time, or even after ALIENS... I saw the Xenomorph as being Very Connected, even if we looked at it as a Bio-Weapon it was so very connected to the Derelict, in which case we had to ASK so what is the Purpose of the Space Jockey.... Slave to Spread the Xenomorph or Master of a Horrid Bio-Weapon.

Thats the TWO conclusions i had back 25+ years ago.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

daliens

Apr-16-2019 7:27 PM

Another hypotheses:

- the derelict crash landed on LV426, coincidentally on top of a cave full with xeno eggs, the pilot went down to asses the damage, entered the cave, looked upon an egg and bam! he gets facehugged. Regaining consciousness he tries to take off regardless of the damage and the chestburster only allows him to activate the warning beacon.

- the derelict was there to ship the eggs, found in the cave from LV426, elsewhere. There is a temporary failure of the blue mist generator than kept the eggs in stasis and one facehugger went out, looking for Mother.

- the derelict came to LV426 to off load the eggs in a safe storage facility. Something went wrong shortly before landing, a neutrino burst causes a blackout that disables the blue mist generator, awakens the pilot from cryosleep and the two meet.

- the derelict was hired by the xenomorph race to transfer the eggs to a hospitable planet where hosts were abundant as on their own planet all meat was already extinct. The pilot was warned about the heightened risk and how important the blue mist was for the safety of the trip. A neutrino burst, frequent in the area, disabled the blue mist generator, the pilot went down to check if the colonists were safe and sound. They were all still in stasis, except one.

"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"

BigDave

Apr-16-2019 7:55 PM

I think when looking at any theory, i think we need to consider and hope this is to be explored...

That there has to be more of a Coincidence that the Derelict and Egg Cargo/Silo do have a Aesthetic shared with the Xenomorph to a degree..

And also that the Derelict Ship and its Pilot Chair look Purposely Built/Grown for the Space Jockey Pilots.

The Question is WHAT is the connection and in what ORDER is the Role of those Elements...  SHIP, the PILOT, the CARGO and so which is the Hierarchy of that Order?

Ridley Scott with the Prequels and his ideas prior seemed to paint that the Order was Space Jockey ==>Ship==>Cargo.

Some these ideas on here seem to be more a Fan of Cargo==>Ship==>Space Jockey

HR Gigers work seems to be a bit Ambiguous to either of such a Order.   Can we Elevate the Xenomorph back to more of a Role than merely being a Super Advanced form of Weapon?

I am not so sure.... it could work, but it could back fire badly..  Introducing something similar but different and ancient maybe could work though.

I just fear there has been so much Damage to the Xenomorph since after Alien 3, which includes Movies, Games and Comics that its Hard to place the Xenomorph in a Role at the Top of the Hierarchy.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Gavin

Apr-17-2019 12:09 AM

"I just fear there has been so much Damage to the Xenomorphsince after Alien 3, which includes Movies, Games and Comics that its Hard to place the Xenomorph in a Role at the Top of the Hierarchy."

For many audiences, the most impactful moments in a movie are the opening and closing scenes. With a good movie the former seeds their interest, pulls them into the narrative while the latter, being the last element of the movie they'll remember helps shape their entire experience of the movie - think of how a bad or mediocre ending reduced your opinion of a movie.

# Alien - Only Ripley survived & a cache of thousands of deadly Alien eggs remains.

# Aliens - Ripley survives again, with friends and "seemingly" the eggs have been destroyed.

# Alien 3 - Ripley dies, taking with her possibly the last specimen of the Alien race.

# Alien: Resurrection - Ripley survives again, with friends and "seemingly" all the Aliens have been destroyed.

# Prometheus - David and Shaw survive departing to discover existential answers.

# Alien: Covenant - David survives again, holding 2000+ colonists hostage.

With the Alien franchise, the best endings were with Alien and Prometheus, whereas Alien 3's ending feels poetic, as for Aliens, Resurrection, and Covenant, their endings feel generic...

My point?

Alien and Prometheus' endings were the most impactful because of the possibilities they offered and the threat they posed. As such, imagine an ending to the next movie but using my theory, whereby a character asks some ancient Alien interface the simple question of "How many", referring to the number of eggs on LV-426, but because the question is so open-ended the interface answers completely, showing an ever larger map of the galaxy/universe and that their caches of eggs hidden throughout. Such an ending takes the conclusion of Alien and magnifies it exponentially.

Such a conclusion married with a movie that returns the Alien to its prominence as an effective antagonist, is IMO what the series needs and what we as fans want - a return to form.

chli

Apr-17-2019 5:40 AM

I think Gavin has a good point when he says that the Alien Universe would shrink and become less frightening and less open if the Engineers engineered the xenomorph. The universe would be more interesting and terrifying if there are galaxies with solar systems and planets filled with different kinds of species -some benevolent and some extremely dangerous.

Some of the books which are set within the alien universe (canon or not), e.g. “Out of the Shadows”, play with the idea that the xenomorph is a species and the eggs can be found on many planets throughout the universe.

So, if the engineers didn’t create the xenomorph, what were they experimenting with on LV-223? As Gavin points out, the engineers could have found the egg cave on LV-426 and used the eggs in their experiments. I don’t see the xenomorphs as intelligent enough to have an abstract agenda, more like ants. The question would then be why there weren’t any adult xenomorphs on LV-426?

Anyway, if the engineers on LV-223 worshipped the xenomorph, seeing the potential in the species, they might have extracted the black goo from it. Consequently, the pathogen contains the xenomorph DNA, which Gavin points out, and therefore transforms the ones exposed to it in the direction towards a xenomorph (the hammerpede had acid for blood, the trilobite, the deacon etc).

BigDave

Apr-17-2019 4:18 PM

I think indeed it would be interesting to ponder how many Worlds have Xenomorph Eggs Stockpiled upon them.

I dont mean to come across Disrespectful though, just my opinion is that i have concerns if the Franchise Expands by giving us this Xenomorph that Spreads itself across the Galaxy, and in return we just diminish the Engineers and what the Prequels had opened up.

If the Universe is expanded as far as there are Hundreds, Thousands of Worlds/Places that have these Ancient Xenomorph Eggs and we get Egg, Face Hugger, Chest Buster and then Big Guy and Queens... i think it basically just restricts the Franchise to be Centered just around that ONE Xenomorph Organism.  How many times can you have people going to Discover Eggs and get Face Hugged and Repeat?

I have not really came across anything from any Movie that shows to me the Xenomorph are a Race that can Create Technology, and Travel Across Space, Building these Egg Silos to store their own kind.

Thats not to say we cant have this... i think we need to look at the role of the Space Jockey, so is this being just a Slave/Servant to Carry out the Task for the Xenomorphs to Spread them across the Cosmos?

Whats in it for the Space Jockey?   Was they created by the Xenomorphs and its Indoctrinated into them that this is the Purpose they are Created for?  Do they do it out of Worship of the Xenomorph, is their a Fear/Forced Element to it like the African Slave Trade was.

Are they given a kind of Existence by the Xenomorphs, where they are kept Safe and can Prosper on a World, but this Covenant would require Sacrifices... and selected Space Jockey's to Pilot the Ships?

Why would the Xenomorph Task the Space Jockey to Pilot the Ship of their Off-Spring?  Especially with how the Space Jockey can be infected with the Xenomorph and if this happens it can impact the intended Target to where these Eggs are intended to be Shipped?

What with the SOS... what difference would Compromised Cargo matter to a Xenomorph Race... they could just send down a Ship and then Recover the Cargo.

Would it NOT be more Foolproof to Pilot the Ship with Xenomorphs if they are that Intelligent that they created the Ships and Egg Silo's?  Maybe because they know the Risk Involved and so use a Slave Race for such Perilous Missions, but then if such a Race is Intelligent would they NOT want to make sure many Thousands of their Off-Spring arrive at the intended Destination Safe and in One Piece?

If they are a Race who have a Fear about Losing their Lives then on one hand, yes maybe they would not want to Risk a Adult in the Pilot Chair... but having but the Lives of Thousands of your kind in the hands of a Race who can be Infected by Infants of you Race that could end up having the Ship NOT end up where you intended.. seems very flawed to me.

I just get the impression the Xenomorph is a Invasive, Parasitic Organism, that gets spread around the Galaxy by either the Space Jockey Race, or by species who come across them and in Curiosity or Greed attempt to take their Eggs on one of their own Ships...

I just get the impression that the Xenomorph is something that a RACE could use as a Bio-Weapon, for Protection.  Something that could be used to Deter Enemies, or use on Enemies or even to go in and Clear Up Worlds of its Inhabitants so that the World can then be Occupied/Take Over (this especially works well if the Xenomorph has a Limited Life Span).

So i would think that the Space Jockey use the Xenomorph like this... be it that they Engineered/Created it for this Purpose, or Engineered them from something else for this Purpose... or simply Discovered them and used them for this purpose.. in which case they used their DNA/Traits to Create their own Ships and Technology.

OR.... the above Role remains True but its another Species that use the Xenomorph for those purposes and they use the Space Jockey Race (Engineers) to Pilot those Ships in return for something.... or they are worshiped by the Space Jockey Race for what ever reason.

I just think the Space Jockey was NEW and something never covered, compared to the over done Xenomorph, and while the Prequels may  NOT have been the best way to cover the Space Jockey and the Creators/God's Plot may be a bit of a Distraction in context to its links to our Creation and Religion/Mythos etc.

I think to downgrade the Engineers/Space Jockey and to Emphasis the Franchise on Queens and Eggs is going to be a bit limiting compared to the Potential that the Prequels opened up. (Prometheus/Alien Engineers).

Regarding the Prometheus Clues, and Worship of the Xenomorph (Deacon) then i have my theory, which surely does not place them as Gods (Xeno/Deacon)  but something that gave Great Benefit to the Engineers or at least those LV-223 ones.

It would be like lets imagine the Company Obtained the Xenomorph... there is more to it than using it as a Bio-Weapon... you could study its Make-Up and use Traits to Engineer/Evolve Mankind, use Traits to Create New kinds of Constructive Material to use in your Technology/Construction.

If we could HARNESS in Mass a way to replicate Spider Silk, and the Genetic Construction of the Spiders Anatomy as far as its Exoskeleton.... the  Strength compared to Weight of the Spiders Silk, and its Exoskeleton could make for Great Advancements compared to our current Construction/Manufacturing Materials (Plastics, Metals).

This is how i see the Derelict/Space Jockey Technology and Xenomorph (its Ancestor) or they are all Created by some other Species.

Thats just my TWO Cents though... does-not mean any other ideas are not interesting, i just feel it could be FOLLY to center the Queen/Eggs as the be all that ends all of the Franchise, but i think many would actually want it to be about the Xenomorph.

Just when i see the Derelict Scene, and see the Alien Movies, i just dont get the picture the Xenomorph is the ONE who are pulling the strings...  but thats not to disrespect those who do.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

birdman

Apr-17-2019 8:09 PM

I believe there is 100% proof in Prometheus that David did not create the original xenomorph organism. The mural on the wall above the "tomb" appears to show some form of xenomorph and the life cycle of it as well... like the engineers knew about it's life cycle well before the arrival of the Prometheus. However, the forms of xenomorph and facehugger on the wall are reminiscent of Giger's original facehugger design, and the xenomorph looks like a blend of neomorph (head shape) and xeno from Alien (hips). Plus, the tomb itself seems to have the rear end of some sort of xeno head sticking out the top of it like it's been crystallized and the rest of it is being held in some sort of stasis inside the tomb. Since I saw this mural, it made me realize that the xenomorph, or at least some form of it, has been around for a long time before the arrival of the Prometheus.

It's in the movie, and not deleted material. It is canon, therefore the xeno form has been around a bit.

So... did David create the more familiar form? Maybe the black goo in the ampules DOES ultimately bring all users/experimenters to a form which is "the perfect organism"...

Cheers!

birdman

Apr-17-2019 8:20 PM

Also keep in mind the spores from the local flora on LV-223 in Prometheus infect humans and bang the neomorphs are there. Maybe that's the source for both the engineers and David for their experiments, if that's what went on. Maybe David wanted to mimic the neomorph organism and with the help of the black goo, he was able to create the xenomorph as a new breed which doesn't rely on little flora puffballs for spore dispersal, but rather the EGGS (replaces the puffball flora) and the facehuggers (replaces the spores) are the new thing David wanted.

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