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Why Invite Us?

Why Invite Us?

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chli

Jul-14-2019 3:24 AM

Why Invite Us?

Stanley Kubrick had a huge influence on many directors - including Ridley Scott. There are many parallels (and differences) between 2001 and Prometheus, the ship's computer being just one. Hal finally destroys the crew, except Bowman (David as the first name . . .), whereas Scott changes the ship’s computer into a maternal figure - “Mother”.

In 2001, the film begins about 4 million years before our time in the African savannah. A monolith descends to earth and changes evolution, turning apes into humans (by giving them the capacity of abstract thinking). Later on in the movie (in the future), we are transported to the moon where a human colony has found a monolith buried in the dust. When the monolith is exposed to sunlight, a signal is sent through the planetary system - to Jupiter.

A couple of years later when a spacecraft is on a mission to investigate the area where the signal was sent to, it comes across yet another, larger, monolith. This, it turns out, is a portal to another part of space (and another dimension?) where the astronaut Bowman comes “in contact” with superior beings.

In Prometheus, doctors Shaw and Holloway discover a star map with an extraterrestrial being pointing in a certain direction - to the moon LV-223. For Shaw, this is the possibility of finding the answers to the existential questions. To Sir Peter Weyland, who finances the expedition, it’s his hope of prolonging his life.

In both 2001 and Prometheus, superior extraterrestrial beings point out the direction to their homeworld. Or is it their homeworld? LV-223 might have been the homeworld of the engineers a long time ago but became an outpost for (military) experimentation. Which history shows us, meeting other civilisations can be dangerous for both parts. Hawking and Scott emphasize the dangers of an encounter.

So, what could have been the purpose of leading humanity to them? Why invite us?

50 Responses to Why Invite Us?

chli

Jul-19-2019 1:46 PM

Well, the engineers decided we weren't fit to exist during the reign of the roman empire and the time of Christ. We were hardly any more civilized before that time . . .

chli

Jul-20-2019 1:43 AM

At the beginning of "The Crossing", we see the juggernaut which Shaw and David have fetched from one of the facilities on LV-223, slowly gliding through space (suggesting that they have at least managed to get the ship airborne).

Next, we see Shaw examining a star map (in order to find the homeworld of the engineers?). Then, Shaw puts David together, and together they "were able to activate their ship and set course for their homeworld". They seem to be happy together.

David says it's impossible to say how far it is to the engineer homeworld but Shaw is put into hypersleep. David is then "alone again" For how long? During this time, David learns "of their ways". When they arrive at their homeworld, David immediately begins the holocaust.

Was Shaw awake? Did she witness the extermination?

hox

Jul-21-2019 8:40 AM

@BigDave, Unfortunately the star map on the Prometheus is made up. It was clearly artwork inspired in part by the constellation of Orion, which is probably the most recognisable of all constellations. In this overlay, you can see this.

And here is the 'unadulterated' scene. I added the arrow pointing to LV-223 as indicated in the movie.

Unfortunately, Reticulum is in a completely different part of the sky, a different hemisphere in fact. LV-223 is shown in the movie as being somewhere between Canis Minor and Gemini (northern hemisphere).

It's a great pity that the production team didn't use a proper star map to create this visual, instead of making one up.

Orion...

Leto

Jul-21-2019 10:22 AM

So, Engineers most likely hoped humans would join and co-exist with them, but at some point during their visit, humans proved to be a disappointment to them, so they thought "Nope, can't let those hostile bastards ruin this planet."

 

Roman legionaries can't destroy or contaminate the planet. And if Engineers think that we can't evovle without their help - it causes controversy.

BigDave

Jul-21-2019 3:29 PM

@Hox it does prove maybe they should make more Research and time taken into the things they show us, but a lot of it comes down to OVERSIGHT but with that comes Discrepancies that some Fans can use to Counter a Argument against certain things.

The intentions was to indicate the Zeta2 Reticuli system

Looking at Orion we can kind of make it look like a Match but it is a LITTLE off still.  The Map i attempted kind of Fits Better but is in NO-WAY to suggest this was thought out by those working on Prometheus, it is merely a Coincidence.

You raised a Good Point about the Briefing Map was ODD.

I took that Map and Lined it up with ORION from SKY-MAP Website and then Pinpointed where Approximately LV-223 was located according to the Holloway Briefing

The Co-Ordinates are NOT where ZETA 2 is located in the SKY.  While in RED i have marked out a Approximate Area where Holloway had pointed out.  i have Marked in GREEN a More Accurate Location of where Zeta 2 Reticuli would be.

So if we are trying to tackle the Oversight, then YES its quite a WAY off from Zeta 2

Could we use this to ARGUE that they went to a Place that is NO-WHERE near LV-426?  Could we Argue the Maps that Dr Shaw and Holloway found are pointing out ORION (but we can kind of match them to Various Stars if we had a Good Look).

You could also use it to MATCH up to the Betty Hill Abduction Map.

IN FACT when looking at SKY MAP its quite easy to find a Series of Stars that can Line Up close to this.

If we are ALLOWED to Rotate the Map and ZOOM IN/OUT on the SKY-MAP Website, especially if we are ONLY looking to find a Configuration that is CLOSE.

Had to do a EDIT on the Image this one is more Accurate as i made a Slight Mistake.

Nonetheless is does still indicate that INDEED where Holloway was pointing to (RED) is NO-WHERE near Zeta 2 (GREEN).

So Holloway was pointing to a System in Gemini, Near Star HD 54405  (Right ascension:    07h09m22.07s
Declination:    +16°32'58.2")

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jul-21-2019 3:51 PM

The Debate about a INVITATION is not so HARD.

Looking at a Reason WHY they wanted to Destroy us is something MUCH more open for Debate.

I think a lot has to do EXACTLY with WHY they would Create us anyway?

Yes there is that Date that is by Coincidence around the Time of Christ's Death (Give or Take) and YES we had Ridley Scott mention this was done on Purpose but then Considered a little TOO on the NOSE.

He liked to get us to think that over time the WAYS that Mankind had behaved had started to become a Concern, if we LITERALLY was to look at it from GOD's POV  and you saw the Majority of the Population Now as far as WHAT would offend the Biblical God, and as FAR as the % who Worship him to the LETTER... Then that GOD would certainly be like PREPARE THE BLACK GOO!

But this should NOT be getting too much into Religion as far as ONE.. and i think this is WHY it is RS had toned this down somewhat.

So we need to look at it this way.... we have to consider that for a God or Godlike beings, they would want their Creations to.

*Behave in Ways that the Creators Deem Acceptable.

*Respect and Worship the Creators.

*Follow any Rules/Laws that the Creators have set out.

*Stick to the Function that the Creators had set out for us.

A Creator would be Concerned if the Following Started to Happen.

*Creations become Sentient and do-not see their Creators as Superior or see any reason why they should be Worshiped.

*Creations go about Living their Lives to their own Rules and have no Respect for/or Follow the Rules/Ways their Creators had set out.

*Creations Start to use the Knowledge passed on in ways Not Intended or begin to Create their own Knowledge/Inventions or Ideals (Advancements) that could be seen as a Concern.

*Creations attempt to Sub-Create or Play God.

All of these THINGS would be a Concern, and we can Attribute many of them to Many Cultures/Civilizations on Earth (especially Modern) in comparison to how say some Cultures like the AMISH for instance would Choose to Live despite being in Modern Times.

which we could make Comparisons with the Planet 4 Engineers. (Living by their Creators Ways/Rules and Shunning Technology for the Most Part).

But this is ONLY looking at HOW we could be a Concern.

I think we OVERLOOK our David a lot when trying to Figure out stuff..

If you look at the Potential for what WALTER would become and a World of Many Walters doing their Duty.

Then look for the Potential for what DAVID would become a World of Many David's who do-not see their Purpose that we had set out for them, and even view us as In-Superior and NOT worthy to be Served.

As a Creator you would be Concerned about what a DAVID could become and if you Creations Start to Show signs of becoming a David... then you would PULL THE PLUG on them.

Or at least RE-PROGRAM.... but sometimes this maybe does-not work and the only option is DESTRUCTION.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Jul-21-2019 10:04 PM

Well, we don’t know for sure whether the star map given to early civilisations was an invitation or not. We don’t know for sure why the engineers created us either and then decided to destroy us (that’s what Shaw wanted to find out).

One thing is for sure, though. If you don’t want visitors, you don’t give everyone your address. The address might have been LV-223 (which might have been a happier place in times of yore). Or the address might have been Planet 4 (presumably somewhere close by).

It’s possible that the engineers looked upon us as parents do. You can’t have meaningful discussions with children. They have to grow up first. When they grow up, there can be good relationships between generations but there can also be a generation clash. Maybe they saw us as mischievous children with no hope of there ever being a meaningful relationship?

Another possibility is that they demanded power and obedience and when humans stopped worshipping them it was time for vengeance (nemesis).

When the star maps were given to us, we hadn’t reached the technological level of space travel but the engineers visited us and saw how we evolved. Around the time of the roman empire, they decided to wipe us out so we didn’t reach the space age (All or some of the engineers decided this?).

The invitation was withdrawn . . .

BigDave

Jul-22-2019 7:28 AM

"Well, we don’t know for sure whether the star map given to early civilisations was an invitation or not."

I think it depends on what you take into account, as i had said earlier on the Topic, while Dr Shaw makes some assumptions First that it was a Invitation and then that she was So Wrong.... she also Chooses to Believe her Faith in-spite of her Findings... so we cant take her as 100% Reliable.

The Biggest Question should be about the Reasons the Engineers Created us and then spent Time coming down to Interact with us... for WHAT reason?

The Answer will HELP us make sense of everything else... but indeed things can Change... and Dr Shaw wanted to know WHY the Engineers Changed their Minds.

The Engineers Agenda and Purpose is the BIG ONE as far as how it Effects everything.  Ridley Scott keeps mentioning they are Gardeners of Space.  (Genetic)

But indeed you DONT leave you Calling Card and Address to People who you DONT want to Find you. So you could look at this being a Invitation..... but in reality its likely that the Engineers had NEVER intended us to Leave Earth on our own Terms and without the Engineers we are supposed to have been Incapable of this FEAT!

How Wrong was they!

"which might have been a happier place in times of yore"

Certainly having LV-223 as a Bio-Weapons Facility for over 35'000 Years with the Intention of using the stuff to Destroy their Creations...  JUST dont make Sense!   As far as WHY they would Pinpoint this place.

But then Dr Shaw and Holloway could have been mistaken and taken the Prometheus to the Wrong Place, as they could have pointed out Planet 4 (but as this place seemed to be HIDDEN, they maybe determined that the Map was to the closest place that seemed to be more Habitable... Hence LV-223

I still think LV-223 was likely a Sandbox/Nursery/Green House to Develop, Upgrade Experiments and then Seed down the Desired Results on Worlds.

At some LATTER point a group of Engineers had became OBSESSED with the Genetic Traits of a Organism that Predated the Deacon and they saw its DNA/Traits as being something more PERFECT than their own Humanoid DNA and so began their Obsession and what LV-223 then became.

If we come back to the Gardeners of Space then ASSUME the Engineers Prime Agenda is to Create/Evolve Life then we have to ask to what END?

If we take this to the Next Level in Peter Weyland and the Creation of Synthetic Life then we could look at a Agenda of the Pursuit of always trying to Evolve this Creation to Perfect it.... and if this is what the Engineers had been doing then lets change this to Mankind.

Throw David out and Replace with Replicants as its more Relevant..   so your trying to Created a Humanoid Species for a Set Purpose and your looking at how to make them more Enhanced (Übermensch ) then its HOW FAR can you Engineer a Superior Humanoid.

After tweaking the Humanoid Genomes and NOT being able to Perfect It, as there is always something to Perfect, you could be like... What if we gave these Humans the EYESIGHT of a Eagle or Owl, what if they could Grow Wings and FLY?

So then your trying to NOT Enhance the Human Genome but your trying to ADD some Traits from other Organisms.   I think this is where the ENCOUNTER and EXPERIMENTS with the Precursor to the Xenomorph came about!

it was something the Engineers had then experimented with that they SHOULD-NOT have...  I am sure if you look at the Traits of the Deacon, Neomorph and Xenomorph then you could ASK.... if we could extract and apply some of these Traits to Humanoids then they could be of Great Benefit in Creating a Übermensch

But alas this all made more Sense before Alien Covenant, because NOW we have to contend with the possibility that there is ONE GOO and it always was able to Create Such Traits.

I could go on more in Detail of HOW it all could fit together (Engineers Agenda and Fall) but that would maybe be a little LONG WINDED...

But i think looking at Replicants and David gives us a Good View at what may have taken place.. But alas the PLOT is so Bold and Ambiguous that you could come up with any number of theories.

KEY points would be around WHAT the Agenda had been for the Engineers, and WHEN/WHY had this Changed.  And also HOW does the Fallen Angels and Prometheus Myth connect.

Then HOW does the "Sometimes to Create One must first Destroy"  fit... which really comes down to TWO Possible Reasons.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Jul-22-2019 10:58 AM

BigDave

As you said, when Shaw says “We were so wrong”, it could mean a lot of things. Wrong about going there, wrong about the Engineers (being nice), wrong about “an invitation” etc. The message could also have changed from being an invitation to not being an invitation.

As you also point out, it’s possible to look upon the Engineers as gardeners of space seeing us as micro-organisms in a petri dish carefully controlling that the lid is on and nothing (no one) escapes (from Earth). LV-223 could have been like a greenhouse where they investigated and experimented with people which would fit well with the Hill abduction.

Yes, it’s possible that the Engineers in their endeavour of creating beautiful worlds filled with perfect beings eventually suffered from hubris, going too far with genetic engineering. In their pursuit of creating perfect worlds and perfect beings, instead, they eventually created monsters . . .

The question “Why did they create us?” could get the same answer that David gets from Holloway: “We made you because we could”. Why do we create perfect, beautiful gardens or parks? Because we can and we enjoy it. But we also have to control them so that it doesn’t go out of control . . .

BigDave

Jul-22-2019 4:39 PM

"The question “Why did they create us?” could get the same answer that David gets from Holloway:"

Certainly, i would like to think the TRUE revelation would had been NOTHING like Dr Shaw's Faith.  In that these beings had Created us to Look Over us, Cherish us and Love us.  When we are looking at the Scale of Creation in context to Prometheus i think we have to always ask "whats in it for the Creator?"

The Drafts for Alien Covenant seem to indicate that they was attempting to build Good Machines. So this could indicate we was Created for some Purpose to Serve a Function.

Maybe if we look at WHY would Mankind Create beings like David, then maybe the Engineers Created us for the same Purpose?

The whole Reason for Creation could be something very Ambiguous that we could come up with various Reasons, and maybe more than ONE could apply.

We cant rule out us being Created for a Purpose and then after this Purpose some Engineers decided that there was more use for us than to be merely a Labour Force for Example.

Its WHY the Answer to WHY we was Created is maybe the Biggest Question.  And maybe its not as Simple as because they COULD...   I think Holloways comment about that to David was just to get under his Skin.

There are Multiple Reasons that Weyland would Create a AI like David.   And just because he could would only be ONE part of this.

The Control Over these Gardens is a GOOD point.

If we take the Fiji Islands and these were Places that the rest of the World Hundreds of Years ago had Agreed to NEVER visit or interact with.   Then its likely they would be NO-WHERE near as Advanced as most of Civilization is now.  We could Ponder the same with the Americas if Europeans never SET-FOOT there.

When Outside people would Visit these places, then the Knowledge Passed on would allow them (Natives) to Advance, but this can be controlled by How Much Knowledge you give them.

We could wonder if some of the Engineers had NOT committed a Hubris, but maybe they had Passed On too much Information and maybe we was NOT supposed to be passed on as much as some Engineers had, which became the Hubris.

We could take Planet of the Apes as a Example... if we Genetically Advanced Apes to be more Human for example, then if we placed them on a Island that is VERY FAR from other Lands, then you could LIMIT and Control at what Rate they would Advance and if they showed signs of Advancing on their own that you was Concerned with then you could PUT a stop to it.

Allowing Genetically Advanced Apes the Freedom and Access/Knowledge that Mankind has, could lead to them gaining a Equal Footing or even Surpassing us. (if they are of Equal or Greater Intelligence).  

And so indeed Controlling the Knowledge that Intelligent beings can gain and Free-will/Freedom to use this Knowledge is something that you would want to be CAREFUL with when it comes to what you allow your Creations to HAVE/DO.

When things GET out of Control.... then its what action do you take!   The Engineers Answer seems VERY FLAWED and Overkill.

Unless they have Seeded Similar to us on other Planets or had came to take some of us with them before they PULL THE PLUG! (think like Noahs Ark).  But again this really does depend on WHY we was Created and WHAT Purpose they had for us, and WHAT happened once we are NOT needed for that Purpose anymore!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Jul-22-2019 8:28 PM

Do you really have to have a purpose in order to create? Does there have to be another reason for creating other than enjoying it? Most people create babies because they enjoy doing it. They enjoy having sex and/or they enjoy having children. All (?) species reproduce only because it’s part of their nature, an instinct.

Humans can control their creation through birth control. In former times and in developing countries you might create children because you need more hands on the farm, or a king or nobleman needs an heir to take over land, properties and duties.

Sir Peter Weyland created synthetics in order to serve mankind just as Dr Elden Tyrell created replicants to do hard and dangerous jobs. Another purpose might have been to earn money . . .

But if we are to look upon the Engineers as gardeners of space, don’t they create just because they enjoy doing it? A real gardener might create beautiful parks because it’s his job (he gets paid) but if you cultivate your own garden (Il faut cultiver notre jardin :) ) you do it because you enjoy it. You enjoy the beauty of it. Your own Garden of Eden filled with trees, bushes, flowers, butterflies, birds and pets . . .

Concerning control, you cannot give children, pupils or pets full freedom to do whatever they like. That would result in anarchy and chaos. Concerning the tree of knowledge (or the Prometheus myth), to pass on knowledge isn’t dangerous in itself, it’s how it’s used . . .

dk

Jul-23-2019 12:46 AM

Certainly, i would like to think the TRUE revelation would had been NOTHING like Dr Shaw's Faith. 

It seems reasonable that Shaw was right about the Engineers being creators and looked at them as god like, but her notion of faith and (what Weyland mentioned- the existence of a soul) were wrong. I agree the TRUTH was that she was pretty much off the mark, as she eventually said- "We were so wrong." Seems like a form of self importance although unintentional. That is a reason she could not be a sympathetic character. There could be a God, but don't expect it to be like what was taught over centuries.

hox

Jul-23-2019 2:23 AM

@chli, good point about anarchy going unpunished in a disorderly universe.

Shaw asked the Engineer why he hated us so much. I don't think it's quite so simple as that. They likely do what they do out of a sense of duty and tradition rather than emotion. Maybe the writing was on the wall for humans when we started warring amongst ourselves and enslaving people. Would it really be a good idea to let aggressive monkeys loose in the cosmos, armed with high technology? The kind of creatures that would be likely to create aggressive thinking machines? Probably not. Maybe the Engineers had the right idea...

When the Engineer listened to David, there was a real look of pain on his face as he listened (shortly before David's rapid decapitation). What pitiful abomination have these humans created? It's not a new idea (see, for example, Dune, Neuromancer etc.), but it could be the case that the Engineer civilisation is totally and utterly averse to the creation of thinking machines. Maybe billions of years ago they fought and won wars against machines, and it's now completely taboo for them. Instead they live like monks.

I believe the Engineers lived in the same way for many millions of years, living a frugal, reflective, religious life. They see it as their duty to seed the universe with life, and to safeguard it against corrupted forms. If that means creating despicable agents of destruction to wipe out a planet or two, so be it!

BigDave

Jul-23-2019 7:56 AM

@Chli

Certainly there are Many reasons for WHY would someone want to Create Life, i think in Context to the Engineers we have to maybe look at it from a different perspective than Natural Procreation.

But thats not to say that some of those Reasons cant apply, Certainly as far as a Intelligent Species who have the ability to make a Choice to Procreate or Not.

When it comes down to the Engineers i think the Question of WHY is something that was NOT clearly laid out, not as far as the Theatrical Movie.  And so we can only Speculate Widly if we only use that movie as a Source of Creation, there are Hints to possible Motives in Prometheus and Alien Covenant if we maybe look at David's Creation, or maybe Ponder WHY he also attempts to Create Life. But as far as the Engineers go there really is NO definite reason given.

The Earlier Drafts do give some possible hints, as far as Prometheus goes, which maybe sets us on a path to Ponder that these are a Species who LOST the ability to Procreate and so the Sacrificial Route was a way to Populate themselves to a degree.  However after Prometheus we had Ridley Scott suggest the Engineers could Create Life in other ways and the Sacrificial Ritual was just how they CHOOSE to do so.

The drafts for Alien Covenant we do have David drop a hint that we was created as Machines, which implies to Perform Certain Tasks so the Engineers would not have to.

If we take into account various Religion and Mythos then there are some things that Match as far as Creation but then there are some other things that Differ.

If we look at WHY would Weyland Create David then we could consider the following.

*Weyland is a Inventor a Innovator and Creating a Humanoid Synthetic who is Virtually Indistinguishable to ourselves but is also Superior, would be such a Accomplishment for Weyland to Serve his Ego.  As he would feel he has Surpassed what GOD had Created and so he would also leave a LEGACY.

*David was like the Son he never had and so its likely that in Part his creation was for Companionship too.

*David was also created to Serve Weyland, to Perform Tasks for his Master, and the Creation of more Synthetics would be used by Mankind to Serve and Perform Tasks so that we do-not have to anymore.

The thing that was Revealed with Alien Covenant is that David felt that he was NOT treated as Equal or how a Son should be treated by its Father.... and indeed most of Mankind.

But i do speculate if there was another Reason for his Creation, which is Longevity a Pseudo Immortality if you would.  If Peter Weyland could Create the Perfect Vessel for a Immortal Soul, and then he found a way to Transfer a Human Soul into  a AI then Peter Weyland would in Part have gained Immortality.   This is merely a Assumption/Idea by myself as Immortality was a Big Agenda for Peter Weyland.

So when looking at the Engineers there could be many reasons.... we cant rule out the because they COULD either, or indeed as David had said "devil makes work for idle hands" and so we have to consider as you mentioned with Building a Beautiful Garden that in part its a case of Creating Something to get around Boredom so you have something Nice to come out of the Work you put in.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jul-23-2019 8:08 AM

@Hox

Firstly yes we have to look at things from the Engineers Perspective, so lets assume if we look at a Plot similar to Planet of the Apes and we play GOD and find a way to Imprint some of our Genomes into Apes so we Evolve the Apes a little.

If we see that our Creation has started to become Independent and a Threat then it would give GOOD REASON for us to UNDO what we had Created for the Greater Good of Mankind... because the Potential is there for our Creations to become Sentient, Unruly and a Threat.   We would maybe NOT view that those Apes should have the same Rights as us, if it was NOT for us they would not had been Created in the First Place.

So it would be our DOING that created a potential Calamity and we could feel its our right to UNDO it.

The Same applies for David... we see he has Feelings, and if Walter had gained similar Emotions and Freewill then Synthetics would certainly feel Compassion for their own kind, but in the EYES of their Creators.. Mankind they would NOT be seen as a Sentient Life Form like ourselves.

Another thing to Consider is that the Engineers could likely have many Worlds that have Very Human Life on them or they could have taken Humans in the Past or even just prior to the Intended Destruction to another Place.

So they would NOT be Destroying the Entire Race of Mankind, if we they had other Very Similar Creations or indeed 100% Humans elsewhere then for the Engineers the Destruction of Mankind would be something that WOULD-NOT weigh so much on their Mind.

It would have been Interesting to had seen what other Engineers would have Felt had Dr Shaw had got to MEET them.

Which will bring me to the Next Post.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Jul-23-2019 8:16 AM

"Maybe billions of years ago they fought and won wars against machines, and it's now completely taboo for them. Instead they live like monks"

Certainly you seemed to see some Compassion in the Engineers eyes towards David we could ponder if they had seen similar in the past with Consequences. 

The Engineer also seemed interested in Dr Shaw, especially if we look at the Extended Scenes of the Engineers.  Ultimately he witnessed via Peter Weylands Actions and Demands that Mankind are a Race that are Selfish and Wicked and NOW have Finally Evolved Technologically to Reach the Stars and maybe be able to USE their Technology.

But back to DAVID....

The Revelation by Ridley Scott that those Planet 4 Engineers are the Originals, and how he mentions about AI and the Replicants are AI.  Taking this on board then it could be a Indication that the Augmented/Enhanced Prometheus Engineers are more similar to the Replicants?

If so then the Engineer would have been looking at a Mirror of himself when he saw David, and this maybe explains his PITY.  But Ultimately he also realized the Hubris and Downfall a Sub-Creation could bring, maybe he knows the Potential because this is what they had attempted against their Creators?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

hox

Jul-24-2019 4:36 AM

@BigDave, I agree, it's very likely that the Engineers have overseen the development of countless humanoid races on numerous worlds. It would be interesting to know if their efforts are highly directed to construction of the humanoid form. That would be consistent with the story of God creating Man in his own image.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to believe that the Engineers would find ways of 'improving' their own form to produce a higher form of perfection, or indeed practise eugenics to create individual castes. Who knows, the Engineers on LV-223 might have been specifically created to  make a caste best-suited for space travel. I suppose you could call such beings Replicants. More Engineer than Engineer.

I'd be careful in what Ridley says about AI. There's AI and there's AI. A swarm of infectious particles (in Covenant) could be operating in unison by completely artificial and computational means, but that's a long way from how we ordinarily think of AI as being a completely artificial thinking entity. We could bio-engineer humanity ourselves, if ethics permitted, but we wouldn't have created an AI.

I think when the Engineer was looking at David it was certainly with pity. He would have appreciated that a highly intelligent thinking machine was in front of him. But he wasted no time at all in destroying what - for him - amounted to an abomination. Symbolically bashing in Weyland's skull with the product of his creation was a nice touch!

The Engineer certainly knows the potential of the upstart creatures that broke his millennial slumber. Indeed, he would see their presence as an immediate affirmation of the Engineer code of ethics, which I believe are: Thou shalt not create thinking machines. Thou shalt not permit thinking machines to be created. Thy children will permit enslavement on pain of extermination.

BigDave

Jul-24-2019 9:49 AM

"I'd be careful in what Ridley says about AI. There's AI and there's AI."

Certainly i think we also have to remember that A.I is Very Ambiguous, most seem to think it has to do with Robotics and Software.

If we was to Advanced Genetics to the Point we could create a Hybrid Human/Ape that would then gain more Intelligence lets say we have Created this!

You could say this would be a Artificially Created Intelligent Life Form... thus a A.I.

We could Ponder if David takes those Embryos and he Enhances them, maybe even giving them None-Human Traits then they would be a A.I too.

Yes we could also consider that if the GOO from the Prequels is NOT a Natural Substance then it could also be classed as a A.I

I do suspect that the Prometheus Engineers are Genetically Enhanced Sub-Creation by the Planet 4 Engineers (which could class them as a A.I), or if not they are a Group who had Genetically Altered themselves in which case we maybe cant class them too much as a A.I.  I have made this TOPIC to cover that and what such a Revelation would have on the Plot.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Jul-24-2019 11:33 AM

BigDave

I wonder how you deduce the Engineers being sterile? In that case, wouldn't Planet 4 be empty of Engineers (2000 years after the outbreak on LV-223)? Just a huge graveyard?

Yes, there are themes of not being able to procreate: Sir Peter Weyland has only a daughter. David is the nearest he gets to a son. I wonder why he didn't get more children (he's got everything)? Shaw is unable to get children (although she births a trilobite) and David obviously can't create children (not human anyway).

But the Engineers? Why shouldn't they be able to procreate? They lived a happy life on Planet 4 with Engineers in abundance (until David arrived).

BigDave

Jul-24-2019 3:06 PM

"I wonder how you deduce the Engineers being sterile? "

I must Apologize for some Confusion, i am assuming this is in reply to my TOPICIf so i understand that sometimes wires can get crossed, well that its sometimes a Tedious Task to Read my Long Replies/Topics so something can be missed ;) (by the reader).

I do-not speculate our Engineers in Total are Sterile, Alien Covenant proves this to NOT be the case.  But prior to Alien Covenant this was a subject to debate regarding our Marble White Engineers. which the original idea was that they WAS (Sterile) a potential consequence of Genetic Manipulation gone too far. But off course this does-not mean thats the case as far as the Theatrical Release of Prometheus.. it was something that was NEVER answered either way, despite the Sacrificial Engineer having NO Nipples.

With RS coming out to say the Planet 4 Engineers are the Originals i think leaves it open for the Prometheus Engineers to be a Engineered Sub-Creation or a group that had Genetically Enhanced themselves and this opens up the debate about IF those Engineers (Prometheus Marble White Dudes) are Sterile?

But thats probably better off discussed on the Topic The Engineers (Sub Creation)

The relation to this Topic as a Invitation is only relevant in maybe WHICH of those Engineer Groups had left those Star Maps.  Which really could be a open ended debate with a number of more Possibilities if we are Wondering WHICH kind of Engineers had interacted with Mankind.  But then who is to say that there is NO real difference between those Engineers and the comment by RS about the Planet 4 ones being Originals does not imply any Genetic Differences. Or Certainly not from a Engineered POV.

PS i Apologize again...

Realized that i had mentioned it on this Topic here

"The Earlier Drafts do give some possible hints, as far as Prometheus goes, which maybe sets us on a path to Ponder that these are a Species who LOST the ability to Procreate"

So this was as i was saying, in context that the Original Idea was a Species that LOST the ability to Procreate (Alien Engineers) which Prometheus was a little more ambiguous about.  So the point i was making was as far as when RS called the Planet 4 (not so Engineer looking) guys the Originals.... and how RS then also called the Replicants a A.I... so i was WONDERING if this means those Prometheus Engineers are like the Engineers versions of Replicants and thus wondering if they are Sterile ;)

There is very LITTLE doubt that the Planet 4 Engineers cant Procreate, it seems Certain they can.  We dont 100% know if the Prometheus ones can either thats a bit more OPEN for Debate... unless we assume they and the Planet 4 Engineers are the Same.  Which they could be as its only a comment by Ridley Scott and comments about not wanting to meet Gods in the First Movie that can leave us to Speculate the Prometheus Engineers are different.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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