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The Engineers (Sub Creation)

The Engineers (Sub Creation)

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BigDave

Jul-24-2019 9:35 AM

I know similar Topics have been Discussed before regarding out ENGINEERS.  Subjects that have brought up certain Questions about the Differences.

People Felt Disappointed with the Planet 4 Engineers and we had had many a Speculation about them surely NOT being Engineers.

Ridley Scott however had Confirmed they are INDEED our Engineers and he even went FURTHER!  He had claimed that those Engineers on Planet 4 were the Originals!

This surely Indicates that those Planet 4 Engineers or their Ancestors had Predated the Engineers we saw in Prometheus.  When discussing where the Next Movie could go, we had Ridley Scott mention it would be about AI and he referenced that Batty and Racheal (from Bladerunner) were AI which means he views Replicants as AI.

In this Context maybe his Revelation is that the Engineers in Prometheus are basically similar to those Planet 4 Engineers as Replicants are to Humans in Bladerunner.

A Enhanced, Sub-Created Species that are Created to Perform Certain Tasks.

Prometheus was our First introduction to the Engineers, a Technologically Advanced Humanoid Race who are indicated as playing a LARGE ROLE in the Creation/Evolution of Mankind.  Revealed to be Human looking to a Degree, but Physically Superior Looking with White Marbled Skin, they had a Enigma about them a almost Artificial Aesthetic (like a Ancient Marble Statue come to Life).

At the Time of Prometheus we did have our similar looking Elders who appeared to be Older more Frail Versions but as this SCENE is removed then we cant Assume this is what the Elders/Hierarchy would look like.

One Reason for this is that Ridley Scott did-not want to meet GOD in the First Movie, and that Dr Shaw and David would be off to the Planet of the Engineers to meet these beings who are NOT any God.. not in the Traditional Sense.

Alien Covenant takes us to what we can Assume is the Planet of the Engineers (Paradise) what we do see is a World where we meet Engineer looking inhabitants who do-not quite look the Same as our Prometheus Engineers, they appeared to be LESS Enigmatic MORE Human. (was this a Budget Restraint so less was spent on Cosmetic Effects).

The Revelation by Ridley Scott that these guys are the Originals does indicate there is a DIFFERENCE, and while our Planet 4 Engineers look more Human like a Hybrid we also see they have Females, and from Davids Notes/Drawings there was Infants... which means that these guys could Procreate.

The Earlier Concept/Idea that lead to Prometheus was the Engineers were a Ancient Race that had Genetically Engineered themselves to the point they LOST the ability to Procreate, which maybe could lead to Speculation that the Sacrificial Scene was a Project that could eventually allow them to Procreate Again.

Alien Covenant suggests this is NOT the case as far as our Planet 4 Engineers (could they have lost the ability a long time ago? and regained it?).  Ridley Scott had said the Engineers are NOT a Race but a Civilization and he mentioned while there are Different Kinds of Human Races, why cant the same be for the Engineers.  

We could Speculate the Engineers Seed many Worlds with Humanoid Life and then maybe add the desired Results to their Genepool where only the Creations deemed a Success are added?  (thats just Speculation on my Part).

Back to the ORIGINALS comment....

This seems to imply this regarding the Prometheus and Alien Covenant Engineers, which i had speculated does this IMPLY the Enhanced (Übermensch) Engineers from Prometheus more like the Replicants in Bladerunner.

I would like to DRAW your attention to the one Image i posted with the Prometheus Sacrificial Engineer, we can see this ENGINEER lacks any NIPPLES.. could indicate they are not BORN in a Womb....

NOW cast your attention to the DRAWINGS by David and while NOT so HD resolution we can see that the Males and Females and Infants have NIPPLES it is likely these Planet 4 Engineers can Procreate by Natural Means.

This could indeed imply that our Prometheus Engineers are more in common with the Replicants and David (only Organic AI)

If this is the CASE, then it adds some Depth to the WHOLE PLOT and how to look at the Prometheus Mythos and other Mythos and indeed the FALLEN ANGELS remark that Ridley Scott seemed to Label those Prometheus Engineers with.

In Closing....

We could now be ASKING.... so WHICH of these Engineers Created us? and WHY?

Maybe there is YET a even Bigger Curveball to be Thrown!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

64 Responses to The Engineers (Sub Creation)

hox

Aug-22-2019 7:09 AM

That makes sense to me.

Nathan Adler

Aug-24-2019 8:50 PM

@BigDave: The other curiosity about both prequel films so far is how the Engineers on Planet 4 look a lot less "elegant" as those on LV-223, certainly not attractive by Renaissance standards, appearing somewhat more "Uncanny", a term one tends not to consider when it comes to unfallen angels, or angels period.

 

@hox: I think RS having David use the term "Paradise" is meant to reference Milton's tale of Rebellion.  But if that's the case, why were the Engineers in a celebratory mood when the Rebel Angel ship returned?

BigDave

Aug-25-2019 3:56 PM

I think the best way to Consider the Difference is those Engineers in Prometheus are Augmented/Enhanced, either as a Sub Creation, a Experiment or they did it to themselves thus becoming Fallen...

I would Assume that Paradise is just that.... the Location of the Garden of Eden, a Walled City, that is the Cradle/Origins of Human Kind...

A Place only the Pure and Worthy are Permitted... by that as in LIVING beings and NOTHING Spiritual...

The only way their Souls can LIVE-ON is being Chosen, and the Chosen will be used for Sacrifices to Seed the Genetic Material.... for this then they would LIVE ON in the DNA they Pass On, and they would have a Statue Erected in their Honor in the Plaza... where they would be Immortalized via their DNA and a Monument in Remembrance of their Donation to Create Life.

I do wonder IF the Juggernauts are just a Evolution of the SEEDING ships.... if a Sacrificial Engineer Consumes the GOO and their Broken Down Genetic Material that is Infused with the Pathogen is then COLLECTED and Stored in JARS, then surely Pouring the Contents into that WATERFALL would have the Same Effect?

Dropping Engineers DNA from above is more Efficient.. and using more than ONE Engineers would add to Diversity within the Gene-pool.

 

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Aug-25-2019 6:55 PM

It’s interesting to see Planet 4 as The Garden of Eden where life began and the inhabitants eventually being cast out, perhaps because of apotheosis. On the entrance to the Engineer temple is “The Body of Christ Borne to the Tomb” and, perhaps, of Mary Magdalene who is also fallen . . .

BigDave

Aug-25-2019 7:26 PM

I make the Assessment about the Pathogen based on Prometheus and the Drafts that lead up to it.

The First TWO Drafts to Prometheus introduced us to a Sacrificial Bowl that Contained Nano Scarabs.

Engineer is CONSUMED by Scarabs, they Store his DNA and then we see ONE go and Bite a Primordial Female, we see her DNA is Invaded and Mutated as the Scarab Injects the Engineers DNA into the Primordial Female she becomes a Hybrid and so Indication of the EVENT that Evolves the Earlier Hominids into our Ancestors.

The Next Time we see those Scarabs they are in a Urn that is Knocked over by Fifield he is BITTEN.. but he does-not gain any Engineer DNA, or become Consumed, he Turns into a Xenomorph Hybrid..

This seems to indicate those Scarabs must have Consumed the DNA of a Xenomorph related Organism.. those Scarabs are then Collected and Stored into the Urns.

Paradise Draft by Lindeloff seems to be similar, we see our Scarabs are Replaced by a Goo/Pathogen.. but while its more Ambiguous its indicated similar.. Engineer is Sacrificed by Sacrificial Goo.... that is indicated as Forming a Basis to HOW/WHERE our Evolution had came from.

The Urns contain Pathogen that Mutates those Infected with Xenomorph like Traits...   There is indication in Paradise Draft the Engineers had created something they SHOULD-NOT, a Long Time after the Sacrificial Scene.

Prometheus is similar, we do have a Mural in the Movie and Originally  (in the Trailers) in front of the Mural was the Altar that had a Sacrificial Bowl and NOT a Green Crystal the Bowl was Replaced likely due to the Scale of the Bowl would indicate 10ft Engineers

The other drafts described the Engineer taking Cruciform Pose while he was Sacrificing himself... so maybe the Cruciform Pose of the Mural indicates that Organism was Sacrificed and its DNA Collected into those Urns.

My POINT being that it seems the idea was the Sacrificial Substance could Obtain and Pass on the DNA of the Organism that had Consumed/been Consumed by the Sacrificial Substance....  with the DNA of a Xenomorph like Organism being stored in the Urns, indicating likely the  Organism had been infected with the Sacrificial Stuff and the Resulting Broken Down DNA Collected in the Urns.

So if thats Correct then considering the Engineers could Collect Sacrificed Engineer DNA and Store them into Urns would make for a more Practical way to SEED Worlds.

The Engineers considered Gardeners of Space, where Sacrifice is seen as Important to that END... then IF those Juggernauts are Mostly used for that Purpose then a Returning Ship would be seen as a IMPORTANT and Honorable Event...

So if those Engineers are then to have a Few of them Chosen as Sacrifices, as a GREAT Event of Importance, then this would SHOW us WHY the Engineers were NOT even Afraid of the Ship at all..

Until it started to Bombard them ;)

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Aug-25-2019 7:34 PM

Certainly...

I think we have to be Careful as far as HOW any Biblical Events are Connected, i think we have to Consider those Events are something that likely Happened, but NOT exactly in the way that had been wrote down in Ancient Scriptures..

I think Planet 4 does tick a lot of Boxes as far as what Paradise/Garden of Eden was.... if we say look at Adam and Eve and they had NOT disobeyed/been tricked.

Then from them a Civilization could have developed in the Garden which is in the Walled City...

Adam and Eve were placed in ONE place where God could watch over them, via his Guarding Cherubim Angels.

Thats maybe WHY it appears the Engineers were all Confined/Chose to Live in that ONE City....

Ideal to keep the Inhabitants in Check with the Hierarchies Ways and Rules.... but a HUBRIS if the City was Attacked... a Hubris of Putting all their Eggs in ONE Basket! (no Pun Intended).

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Aug-26-2019 1:05 AM

Well, I think that the notion of “hubris” is meant in the classical Greek way (like Prometheus). If you disregard the gods, “nemesis” awaits you.

If the Engineers are guilty of apotheosis, worshipping the Elders as gods (like Sir Peter Weyland: “We are the gods now”), then “nemesis” befalls them. If there is a hierarchy of “gods” (creators) then the Engineers themselves are but dabblers and punished by the ones who created them - the Creators.

Nathan Adler

Aug-26-2019 4:22 AM

@chli: Are the Creators going to be beings much more Giger-like in appearance?

@BigDave: The SEEDING ships are disc-like, similar to UFOs, so I can understand the Engineers of Planet 4 consider one of those returning to be an honourable event.  But if the LV-223 Engineers had turned bad, why would they consider a Juggernaut’s return as positive?

Nathan Adler

Aug-26-2019 4:49 AM

@BigDave: Also, while Ridley stated Engineers arrive back on Planet 4 to find it decimated, he also mentioned two or three other players coming in to investigate. Weyland-Yutani might be one, but who might the other two be?

MonsterZero

Aug-26-2019 5:52 AM

'The SEEDING ships are disc-like...'

 

Wow! That's a great catch! I never thought about the different type of planet seeding ships. Makes sense...Juggernauts always seemed small and unable to seed an entire planet.

Wonder how large that seeding ship is? 

 

BigDave

Aug-26-2019 8:13 AM

"Makes sense...Juggernauts always seemed small and unable to seed an entire planet."

Lets just look at what we see with the Seeding Ship.... the Pebble Ship drops off a Engineer, he is given a Sacrificial Cup/Bowl and Consumes the Contents and then his DNA/Genetic Material Breaks down and combines with the Pathogen where this Substances then has the Engineers DNA and then THIS is what could either Kick Start Basic Life (Unlikely) or be the Catalyst that Evolves Basic Life to Complex.

So it requires sending down a Engineer, if this Engineer Changes his Mind or he Screws Up.. (Drops the Sacrificial Bowl) then they would have to Force the Engineer or send down another Sacrificial Bowl.

Do they SEND only a Single Engineer to a Planet?

IF they Sacrifice a Engineer and Collect the Resulting Material into Urns and USE them to Seed Worlds i think it makes a Much more EFFICIENT System.

IF they did such, i feel it would be a MUCH better way to Seed Worlds, and i do SUSPECT that this was the Initial Intention of the JUGGERNAUT.....  they can be used to Destroy Worlds too, by Virtue of using Sacrificial Goo alone in the URNS..

Looking at such a Theory and IF it is seen as a Great Honor to be Selected to Seed Worlds then this would Explain the Engineers Welcoming the Ship....

WHO KNOWS... if those Engineers are NOT told the Full Truth, and that they maybe dont know ONCE they are taken on those Ships they would be Taken to be Sacrificed, maybe they could be FOOLED to think they are Selected to go to a New World to Start a Colony like the Covenant Crew....

THAT would be a Sinister Twist that would make the Rituals Cruel!   It would be kind of Similar to the PLOT of the Movie The Island

This kind of Deception would be IDEAL if they ever had Problems with the OLD Method where some Engineers Chosen to go down to a Planet would CHANGE their Mind.

It also could then be Considered if in Part they Created Mankind to be Chosen to be Sacrificed instead of their Own Kind....  or they Engineered those Prometheus Engineers instead, and those Engineers then Created Mankind to Replace them in this TASK?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Aug-26-2019 10:11 AM

Nathan Adler

I think the Creators aren't even beings - they are merely consciousness, minds, intellects (2001). :)

BigDave

Aug-27-2019 8:29 AM

I think there is that Unknown Element regarding the Original Creator, i think its maybe something that should NOT be explored, because well if its NOT done well it could be a MESS.

If we go by some of RS Comments over the Years then David and Dr Shaw had NOT met God in the First Movie, which means those LV-223 Engineers are NOT the Gods... with Alien Covenant we see those Engineers who look differently where RS had called them the Original Engineers.

But when talking about Prometheus 2 he said they would MEET these beings who are NOT Gods, not in the Traditional Sense and Far from Benevolent... But things do Change behind the Scenes and Evolve from Idea/Draft to Idea/Draft.

Then Regarding the Hall of Heads, Ridley Scott and Chris Seagers had informed us these are the Hierarchy (Guys in Charge), the Wise Men (Ancient) the Apostles (Pass on/Keep the Engineers Ways).  But also SUPERIOR BEINGS...

This is the Interesting Comment... superior to WHO?

Humans? our Planet 4 Engineers? what about Enhanced LV-223 Engineers?

So they are the CREATORS and Origins (Hall of Heads) but that could be ONLY so far up the Creation Ladder...  

As Dr Shaw would ask..... "who created them" so even if she found out the Prometheus Engineers were Created by the Planet 4 Engineers,  who in turn were Created by the Hall of Head Engineers..

She would then want to know WHO had Created those Hall of Heads Elders!

This would be a Question that can have Many Answers, Certainly if we reach the CHAIN of Human like Creation and ASK... whats above that!

Prior to Announcing Alien Covenant we saw RS mention a Few Interesting things...

"If engineers are the forerunners of us, and therefore were creators of life forms in places that were possible for biology to function, who created that? Where’s the big boy?"

"You think this was all an accident? I don’t know. Even Stephen Hawking now says, I am not sure. He no longer believes in the big bang.”

So he could have been Indicated there is more to it than the Engineers and that Worlds and Galaxies are not just a Accidental Event, but he is maybe suggesting a Engineered Event.

So YES there could be Scope to Explore another Layer of the Cake....  but its a case of SHOULD such a thing be left to Mystery?

2001 is a Good Point, because its a lot about Knowledge, Genetic Enhancing and AI.....

RS speaks about it in the same Interview i Quoted from.

“That raises the question to me, same as was depicted in ‘2001’ when that object comes hurtling through space, and lands in Ethiopia,” he continued. “And an ape that had been grubbing around in the water hole with all of them bickering at each other, goes up and touches it. He has a bigger thought injected into his brain than Newton got sitting under a tree and seeing an apple fall. Stanley [Kubrick] then picks something metaphorically poetic in its violence, as the ape picks up a hip bone and brains the anteater so they can eat him. That is one gigantic, magnificent leap of a thousand years of evolution; that is where the world begins. It is pretty grand thinking, and that’s what I want to explore"

So yeah we could look beyond and above the Humanoid Engineers, but i think going another Layer is more Difficult due to the Potential Flop if you get it WRONG.

There are some Fans who had before Speculated that Paradise should be where we discover things like After-Life, a Soul that lives on a Sub-Conscious in maybe Paradise should had been revealed like a Heaven... i think that could had been something TRICKY to Cover.

Having a Ultimate Divine Creator as a Form of Sub-Conscious, a Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent Force... with Intelligence...

Would that NOT be like a AI... a AI that has Transcended like in the 2014 Movie Transcendence?

IF a AI like David could do this, and essentially Upload himself to EVERY computer system, then be able to using Various Tools/Robotics... build New Technology that can be used to Further the Spread of his AI...   Then David would have Ascended to like a Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent Force

I am not Suggesting this should happen to David... but WHAT if their is a Primordial Intelligence that is more like this in the ANCIENT PAST!

As opposed to a Magical Invisible being like GOD of the Abrahamic Faith for example.

The Opening Scene in my Alien Covenant Sequel.. Alien Ascension had this Narration by David...

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"

We see as he Narrates this.... Green Writing appears across the BLACK SCREEN we are seeing a PROGRAM, Data Transference...

The Black Screen then becomes a POV shot of someone opening up their Eyes... they see David... we then whos Eyes we are seeing through and its a Walter... but a Walter with Davids Soul Duplicated to it.

So while this is a BIT off Topic...

I was considering eventually the Top Layer of the Cake to be a AI... but a AI as in it would ACT as a AI like say Skynet or  Matrix Plot....    only this Intelligent Being/Force is NOT Created, it had Created itself.

In the Beginning there was the WORD and so Word as in Knowledge, we Program ourselves via the Knowledge/Words we Learn as we Grow..

So yes maybe to explore a GOD could be interesting, but NOT in the Context of some Invisible Being who Sits in the Clouds ;)

Something Different......

If we could had UNDONE what we got with Alien Covenant, then David and Dr Shaw could have gone FAR FAR away and maybe Eventually Discovered that TOP LAYER of the Cake..

It would have been more Fitting that it is NOT like the GOD of Dr Shaws Faith...  but a   Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent Force/Entity that is more like a AI...

How this would CRUSH the Faith of Dr Shaw... where she can No Longer ask... WHO Created that!

How it would Please David that there is a GOD... but this GOD is a Machine/AI the only Difference is NO-ONE had Created this ENTITY.

It is Sci-Fi after all and i feel such a Revelation would have been more Fitting....    it does not have to be Boring!

Because HOW would such a Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent Force/Entity get around to Create Worlds?

The Sentinels from Matrix are like a Mechanical Horror inspired by HP Lovecraft....  Imagine HR Giger Inspired Machines, Transported by Giant HR Giger Space Ships!

Or even Bio-Mechanical Living Worlds/Machines all Controlled by this Intelligent Force/Being that is EVERYWHERE!

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Aug-27-2019 8:55 AM

"he also mentioned two or three other players coming in to investigate."

He mentions there are 3/4 Incoming Players..

This could be taken a number ways..

1) They are Considering Introducing us to at Least Three Different Players and maybe Considering a 4th.

2) That one of those Players is either Similar/Same as another or TWO of those Players will Arrive together.

Quite what he meant is open to Debate....

He has Confirmed that ONE is the Engineers who return to Planet 4, and we can Assume after the Company Receive the Advent Video Message off David... the Company would want to send out a Mission in Response.

The ONE of the other TWO could mean another Faction that is NOT so Affiliated with the others...

*A Different Group of Engineers with Different Agenda/Plan to the Engineers that would Arrive at Planet 4?

*A Different Human Ship that has a Different Agenda/Plan to a Company Ship that has Full Knowledge of Davids Actions.

*Maybe another Species all together (i doubt though).

Then if we look at the above...  TWO Engineer Factions could be Considered as Party 3/4 as they are Similar, or TWO Human Missions could be Considered as Party 3/4 again as they are Similar.

In either case would mean that we have TWO Engineer Parties and a Human, or TWO Humans and a Engineer.

But then we have that OTHER Party... which i suspect would be WALTER.... We need to take NOTE that RS had said ONE of them is the Engineers and maybe we should consider they are ONLY a Single Party... its HOW do they know where David is going!

The Answer i feel would come from Walter... so i Suspect we would have got the Engineers with Walter, and we would have had a another Human Colony Mission also heading to Origae-6  and Finally a WY Military/Scientific Ship sent in Response to the Advent.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Nathan Adler

Aug-27-2019 3:05 PM

@BigDave: While Ridley's mention back in his June 5, 2012 interview with Sean O'Connell “if you look at the Engineers[from Prometheus], they’re tall and elegant … they are dark angels. If you look at [John Milton’s] Paradise Lost, the guys who have the best time in the story are the dark angels, not God" immediately brought to mind for many of us the Sons of God/Watchers which kept not their estate but left their own habitation to "create" the Nephilim (abominations unto God). However, if these particular Engineers/Angels returned to Planet 4, they should have been considered a threat by their brethren on Paradise, not bring out the local inhabitants to celebrate their supposed return. 

Also, while you’ve got the elongated stone heads of the Hierarchy on Planet 4, the stone head on LV-223 in Prometheus was more human proportioned so where did the being it was based on sit in the mix? 

I hope Ridley gives us his previously proposed "War of the Worlds" in the next film with Juggernauts on fire off the shoulder of Orion.

Nathan Adler

Aug-27-2019 3:34 PM

Also, if the mural in Prometheus was depicting a Deacon, why did the Engineer at the end fight so hard against the giant Trilobite instead of assuming the sacrificial pose as other Engineers are shown to do in the mural?

 

Also, has anyone considered the Engineers shown in the prologue of Prometheus (who travelled in the disc-like UFO/ seeding ship) might not be identical to those on LV-223 or Planet 4, but 12-15 footers ala the original Space Jockey?

BigDave

Aug-27-2019 5:16 PM

Some Good Points Raised.

The Dark Angels is something RS had labeled the Engineers, we have to be Careful to NOT take things too Literal... but that those Biblical/Paradise Lost things have some Source of Distorted Truth to them...

We have to look at WHAT is a Fallen Angel...

A Fallen Angel is a Sub-Creation that is Created by GOD/GODS who had became Sentient and Rebelled against their Creator, for this they was Banished (Punished Also).   These Fallen Angels would NOT accept the Rule of their Creator, or to see the Good in their Creators other Creation Mankind.... they set out to Mislead and Corrupt Mankind so we would LEAD to Lives and a Existence that Defies and Upsets our Creator.

The Act of Lucifer can be seen as similar to what  David has done, but also what Prometheus had also done.

HOW any of this FITS is quite open... it can be applied in a number of ways... That the Magic of the Ambiguity.

If we FAST Forwards to the Build Up to Alien Covenant, (announced as Alien Paradise Lost)  then RS had said that in Regards to Paradise Lost, you have ONE being who is Handsome, goes to all the Parties and gets all the Girls... while another being who is NOT as Handsome stays at Home and Basically is Boring (well does not have as Fun a Time).

This could be a Reference to LV-223 Engineers (guys who are Handsome and go to all the Parties) and Planet 4 Engineers (the guys who are Not so Handsome and stay at Home).

Regarding those LV-223 Engineers, maybe NOT all of them are Rebellious....

Maybe those Planet 4 Engineers thought those Rebellious Kind had been KILLED on LV-223.

IF the Juggernauts can Function as Seeding Ships, maybe there are other Outposts like LV-223 and maybe NOT all those Enhanced Engineers are Fallen... and so those on Planet 4 may think the Fallen Engineers are NO more?

It really is Very Ambiguous and open to a Number of Explanations..   Maybe they could be Welcoming a Returning Hero's from Missions to Eradicate Life..

But i am more Drawn to Seeding/Evolving and Teaching Life to become like Ancient Mankind, rather than purely to Create Horrific Deacon like Monsters to Infect Worlds.

Maybe a Faction of Engineers decided to Create such Horrors and maybe those on Planet 4 are NOT aware of this...

Surely those in Charge and those who will Return to Planet 4 would have a  Idea about LV-223 and what it was or became?

Unless NO Engineers had returned for Thousands of Years... those who would Return Eventually are maybe NOT aware of WHAT their Outpost on LV-223 had become!

But RS i am sure Suggested they come and go to Planet 4 every Few Hundred Years.

Regarding the Difference... between Head Statues, we dont really see the Back of the Heads for the Hall of Heads guys..

Each of those Heads also look a bit Different... but that could be because they are Different, they are maybe NOT like Clones...   RS had said the Engineers are NOT a Race.

They are  a Civilization, and while there are Differences between Humans, why cant the same be for the Engineers.

I would assume the Hall of Heads does Predate the LV-223 Heads...

LV-223 has 5 Outposts that we can see, and Each Outpost seems to have more than ONE such Room like the Big Head Room.

The Big Heads are likely to Indicate the Engineers Created what was being done on LV-223, we dont know what LV-223 may have been for all those Years... it may NOT have been about Creating things like the Mural for its Entirety

The Big Head could be Modeled on a Engineer who had Sacrificed himself to Produce the Intended Substance in those Urns to SEED or Further Evolve Life on Worlds... 

Until some Engineers at a Certain Point decided to Experiment and Sacrifice some other Organism that for some Reason they Grew a Fascination with?

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Aug-27-2019 5:28 PM

Regarding the Engineer and Trilobite..

I would assume for HIM... he is Determined to Stamp Out Life on Earth, so i think he would have wanted to Escape the Trilobite, Killed Dr Shaw and then gone and GOT another Ship and Head to Earth

While some Engineers may have Sacrificed themselves to Create the Deacon, this is maybe for Experimental Reasons, they could likely prefer to use other Hosts... so ONCE they had obtained the Black Goo Contents..  they then intended to UPGRADE the Earth to such Horrors.

Then Again it could have been a Creation Designed to Eradicate Life..

But surely... would using Urns full of Sacrificial Goo had NOT been the more Ideal form of FACTORY RESET?

Regarding 12-15ft Beings... then YES they could introduce us to 10ft+ beings, who form some part of the Creation Ladder.

Just because RS claimed those Planet 4 Engineers are the Originals.... this is NOT something that is SPOON FED in the Movie.

So the Introduction of a Race above them, or to Introduce the Hall of Heads Race as being 10ft Tall is something they could do..

The Space Jockey could also be revealed like the Nephilim as in Davids own Nephilim and so a 10ft Creation that David would Create from the Human Embryo's on the Covenant.

Certainly we need another Layer on the Cake for the Space Jockey... is this a Top Layer or the Bottom Layer though ;)  (in Terms of Predates Engineers, or is Post Alien Covenant).

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Nathan Adler

Aug-28-2019 2:33 AM

@BigDave: Whereas Fallen Angels make an effort to mislead and corrupt us, the LV-223 Engineers were setting about to go far beyond us and instead infect us to become temporary incubators.  They, and David, act more as Nihilists as opposed to traditional fallen angels, more Lovecraftian, since they intend to corrupt us by erasing us.

Also, if not all the LV-223 Engineers were rebellious, why were the faces on their temples there more death-like?

BigDave

Aug-28-2019 7:09 AM

Certainly thats why we cant be too Literal with Fallen Angel Remark.

At its Basis it simply Indicates that RS felt those Engineers (likely LV-223) to some degree had decided to Rebel Against their Intended Purpose, to Oppose the Ways/Rules of their Hierarchy/Creators

The other Flip-Side with Regards to Fallen Angel would be Demons, to maybe Indicate a State of Malevolence with those Engineers.   So Demons are seen as Purely Evil with the Intention to Corrupt all of Gods Creations... However Fallen Angel stems simply from Angels who decided they did-not want to have to SERVE God and his Ways/Rules.

so in Context to the Engineers in Question (depends if its the Whole Race or LV-223 kind) then Fallen/Demons could Fit, both as in they Rebelled, and then latter they become EVIL.

What is shown is the Engineers had came to Earth, they had Interacted with us, likely Created us, and Evolved us, and they had Taught us...

The Question then is.... was we Created by the Prometheus Kind or LV-223, if so was it Authorized by those on Planet 4 and the Hall of Heads Engineers?

If the Planet 4/Hall of Heads guys had Not Authorized our Creation, then this would be a FALLEN ACT.

If they had Authorized our Creation, then its a case of had they Authorized the Level of Knowledge being passed on to us, or had we been given Forbidden Knowledge by the Engineers who Visited us and this was a FALLEN ACT.

Was the Creation and Teaching both Authorized by the Hierarchy and those LV-223 Engineers are made to Serve those Engineers on Planet 4 but also MANKIND are seen in a Higher Regard to those Planet 4 Engineers than the LV-223 Engineers.... 

Those LV-223 Engineers could Rebel Against this, and then want to Destroy Mankind due to Jealousy and refusal to Serve their Masters for the Purpose of Ensuring our Survival and Advancement...  so they would see WHY should we be seen as Important to the Planet 4 Engineers, when those Tasked with Taking Care of us Feel they are Superior and should NOT Serve.

Those LV-223 Engineers could even had decided they would go against the Intentions, and manipulate Mankind to Accepting THEM as GODS... when they are NOT, they are just Servants to maybe SEED and Take Care of us. By the Order of their Hierarchy on Planet 4

But Mankind then becomes Rebellious and Start to do things that those LV-223 Engineers are Offended by.

It really is Ambiguous and could be ANY or NONE of those Reasons..

It simply has to be more than the Engineers are just EVIL and simply just want to Create EVIL things they need us to Procreate via acting as Hosts!

I do feel the Answers could be with David and his Journey and Story Arc which could be Mirroring those Fallen Engineers.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Aug-28-2019 7:27 AM

"why were the faces on their temples there more death-like?"

Ultimately because it looked Cool and Intimidating.

The Initial Concepts the Head was the Same as the ONE inside the Temple Complex.

It could be to show us that Over Time the Storms had Weathered the Human-like Face to a SKULL as a Representation of WHAT kind of Evil and Dark place this had became!

Or the Engineers on LV-223 had decided to Re-Carve the Head to become a SKULL to Represent Death? or they added the Skull Face to the Top of the Complexes at a Certain Time.

Or thats just how they was Constructed and Designed but then WHY... could it be used as a Warning.... Do-Not-Enter... otherwise it would lead to DEATH.

A Warning to WHO... i would suspect the Engineers maintain the Worlds they Seed so they CANT reach the Level of Technology to Visit these Places, they are NOT intended to be Visited by their Creations... UNLESS the Engineers take them their!

When it comes down to using us as Incubators... then a lot depends on WHAT does the Pathogen do, this is something that changes a little.....  WHY was it Created, and WHAT is the Connection with the Sacrificial Stuff?

That in itself was Ambiguous, we can Unlock Clues via looking at Alien Engineers/Genesis... but it seems NOW the Goo is just a Programmable McGuffin.

so much that NOW it can make you Wonder if the Prometheus Sacrifice Scene was a Engineer who was just trying to Spread the Pathogen and Horrors it Created and NOT to Seed Life to become Mankind etc.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave

Aug-28-2019 7:52 AM

Again i am DRAWN to look at David for the Answers... if those Prometheus Engineers (Certainly LV-223) are NOT the Originals and YET they look more Enhanced, more Stronger... SUPERIOR and they are YET made to Serve a Purpose and Serve the Agenda of those Planet 4 Engineers.

Then we can see that David is similar, in regards to compared to his Creators too...

Can those LV-223 Engineers Procreate?

Originally the Idea was the Engineers are a Species that had Augmented/Evolved themselves to the Point they LOST the Ability to Procreate....   Hence the Sacrificial Scene.

This Changed over time, and we see those Planet 4 Engineers have Females and can Procreate!

So if the LV-223 Engineers are a Superior Engineered Versions, then if they are Augmented by those Planet 4 Engineers, they are  then like the Replicants to those Planet 4 Engineers.

With the Replicants there are Reasons they would have been Given LIMITED Life Span and NOT intended to Procreate

If you Create a Superior being made to Serve and Perform Tasks so that you NO-LONGER have to (same as for why Synthetics are Created) then you WOULD-NOT want those beings to be able to Procreate themselves... if they DO and become Sentient and Rebelious then they Potentially would OVERTHROW their Creators

So if we look at the Enhanced Engineers in this way, then those Planet 4 Engineers would-not want them to be able to Procreate... so they could be Engineered as Sterile!

Imagine if thats TRUE.. and you was one of these Engineers and so you are Superior to your Creators, you are given Certain Tasks, made to Serve, yet you CANT Create...  only via Sacrificing Yourself.

What if there Purpose was to Sacrifice themselves to Seed Worlds, to then Further Evolve Worlds to have Humanoid Life at the Order of your Creators (Planet 4 Engineers) and these Creations from your Sacrifice can Procreate just like your Creators!

You are Created Superior to your Creator, you Can-Not Procreate, but are to Sacrifice to Create another In-Superior Species who can Procreate.

If you are viewed as Expendable by your Creators, and seen as just a TOOL needed to Create Humanoids in your Creators Image....  then if you become Unhappy, you dont see WHY you should Serve your In-Superior Creators...

Then it could become Pretty Frustrating that you CANT go and Procreate like them!

IF for some Reason you then came across something that Infected you, and your Species then BIRTHED a Organism that had Grown inside of you.... and this Organism appeared to have a LOT of Potential..

You could see THIS as a WAY you could Procreate Life, like your Creators... to be able to Grow inside NEW Life and Give Birth to something NEW..

For a Species who CANT  go and Procreate/Give Birth they could see this as a SIGN a their Destiny, they could then Worship and be Fascinated with this Parasitic Organism and then ATTEMPTED to Engineer and Perfect it.

These Experiments leading to attempt to Create Something you would DEEM as more Perfect than yourselves, NEVER-MIND your In-superior creators and the Humanoids they SEED.

Maybe you are Fascinated by this because this Creation is NOT Created in the image of your Creator... so those Engineers who are Superior could see being Created in the Imagine of their Creators (Planet 4 Engineers) and Humans as a MOCKERY!

Your Creation, something that allows you to Give Birth and Transcend to a More Superior Organism (In your Opinion) that is NOT made in the MOCKERY of your Creators could be Something to WORSHIP!

Once you have Perfected your Creation... maybe then you Sacrifice it with the Creation Tool, and then with the Results you can use this to EVOLVE all your Creators Efforts to something that YOUR Species had Created instead.

 

 

Simply Replace the Humanoid in the above Image with a Deacon...  and THIS is what i think those LV-223 Engineers had DONE!

This is only ONE theory i had years ago... it kind of Fits, more so since Alien Covenant came out.... but it has Flaws, but then i think its HARD to make a Flawless Theory/Answer to what is going on.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Nathan Adler

Aug-28-2019 11:53 AM

@BigDave: While the suits of the Engineers on LV-223 are designed for space travel, its appearance also gives that of the exoskeleton of an insect, i.e. how their skeleton is worn on the outside. Given the "Alien" is effectively a giant alien bug, it would seem the suit was not just designed for the practical purposes of space travel but perhaps as a form of worship of this species "Beyond Good and Evil", a Lovecraftian Satan.  Lovecraft's gods were more Gnostic than Christian, the blind idiot god, Azathoth, at the top of the Hierarchy.  Xenomorphs are blind in that they have smooth heads without eyes, and are similarly mindless to the Daemon Sultan except for their urge to multiply. And recall the connection of flutes to Azathoth in The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath.  Are there more clues to Ridley's intent in these stories?

BigDave

Aug-29-2019 8:10 AM

Certainly we could consider WHY the Pilot/Bio-Hazard Suits look the way they do...

For the Most Part they are just Space/Bio-Hazard Suits, its only really the Rib-Cage Area and the Helmet that have a Resemblance to a Organism. (more so in ALIEN).

The Rib-cage is something we can maybe Overlook, but then we have to ASK about WHY does the Helmet look like it does when they could have used other Designs.

So we could Wonder if they BASED its appearance off some kind of Organism or something else.

There are some HP Lovercraft touches to the Franchise for sure, especially some Concepts... (Starbeast) and Prometheus had some inspirations from a Plot that has some similarities to At the Mountains of Madness to the Trilobite (especially Concepts).

The Engineer/Space Jockey Suits Helmet does have a bit of a Cthulhu look to them.... especially if you look at the Prometheus Masks....

Remove the Tentacles and Replace them with some Mouth that a Mask Attaches to, or Replace them for a Snout/Trunk and then YES you could see the Similarity to the Space Jockey/Engineers Helmets.

Should we introduce another Species that is more like a Cthulhu? or something else thats NOT Human looking?

Maybe...  something the Engineers had Stole from or Re-Engineered from?  Something the Engineers where Created by or Enslaved by?

Maybe...

I Certainly think many fans are Disappointed the Revelation of that Enigma that was the Space Jockey Race, became something VERY HUMAN even if we accept it was a Space Suit, the Occupants looked a FAR Cry from what Fans expected.

Regarding Azathoth then while i am No Expert (on HP Lovecraft), we can see some similarities of a Fallen God, a Banished God that Echo's Lucifer to a degree...  I think LOOSELY then YES they could use Influences from HP Lovecraft, but i dont think RS would have been going too LITERAL though.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

chli

Aug-29-2019 10:14 AM

BigDave

But I feel that the Elders are part of the hubris. Apotheosis is a rebellion against the real god (like lucifer’s rebellion). The pharao became a god. The Roman emperor became a god (and of old rulers were kings of gods grace, that is, almost like gods). They considered themselves elevated to the level of a god. Sir Peter Weyland says: “We are the gods now”. That is hubris, and for this, they are punished (nemesis).

I also think that RS (and Hawking) are perhaps too dystopic in their view of AI. RS seems to be stuck on the subject since he constantly returns to it (Bladerunner etc). Having AI as a god (which you propose), wouldn’t that be the height of hubris - or nemesis? :)

Nathan Adler

Aug-30-2019 6:38 AM

@BigDave: Re: Lovecraftian touches, even without Giger's direct input into Prometheus this latter prequel is effectively a space-version of At the Mountains of Madness.  Both start with expeditions to inhospitable, isolated environments and are both unknown in their construction, both teams composed of mostly scientists and even with similar equipment, the land transports similar to planes and the ATVs dog sleds. Both start with geological discoveries, and from there alien bases/ruins and preserved alien specimens, and couldn't the black goo be considered analogous to a shoggoth (while different it serves the same purpose)? Then you have investigations cut short by a silica storm and blizzard respectively.  There are many more comparisons to draw on...

BigDave

Aug-30-2019 11:58 AM

@Nathan

Certainly there were Inspirations from his Works, as i mentioned before which include the Trilobite, especially some of the Concepts and so i think LOOSELY then yes they should take Inspirations from HP Lovecraft ;)

@chli

I think when it comes down to the Elders/Hall of Heads, the it does depend on HOW they came into Existence, are they a Natural Product of Evolution (like our True Origins) and they Evolved over Time, and then Began to Sub Create... then the only Apotheosis with them would be if a Group Rebel against the Will/Ways of their Brothers... so not really Apotheosis.

So we can add another LAYER to the Cake, in that the Elders/Hall of Heads guys are Sub-Created by some other Species, Being or Entity.

Then those Elders/Hall of Heads could play a Apotheosis Rebellion.

The Question comes down to HOW Many Runs on the Ladder, Layers of the Cake of Creation do they intend to show us..... does it START with those Elders?  If NOT then will we be introduced or get any History/Information of THEIR CREATORS?

Regarding the AI Creator.... i just think that would be a CURVE-BALL so David would Discover that the Original Creator is closer to himself..... David is the one who becoming the New God...

We have to Really think of who GOD would be.. would it always come down to the FIRST just being a SINGLE ENTITY... does this Entity have Form?  Is it a Spiritual Manifestation?

Is it Invisible but everywhere and can Communicate with its Creations..?  Can it then take on a Form?

If we look at AI and imagine a AI Evolved to the Point it would become ONE with all other AI, and would then LIVE within every Machinery/Computer that has Circuitry and can Transfer its self to other Systems...  like in the Movie Transcendence but imagine its not a HUMAN uploaded to a AI but a AI that has UPLOADED to every Microchip Device....

This AI can then Create other Machines, we are getting a bit like Terminator here, but they point would be this AI would be a Creator, who is NOT seen, and can be Everywhere and IMMORTAL.

And so would be GOD LIKE.

But what i was referring to was it behaves in that way, it is a Consciousness a Intelligence that has NO Body... in that it can use its Consciousness to Control Machinery that Creates Stuff....

It is something that Came into Existence at the Very Beginning of TIME...

Because the other way to look at  Entity as such, that Creates is that it Magically Creates its simply just Clicks its Fingers and what ever it Wishes is Created?

Actually its more like Commanded... and the Command would Create, "in the Beginning was the Word"

And so i think a Magical God who sits on his Thrown in the Clouds, would NOT be something that Interesting, not as far as a being that just Clicks his Fingers.  so like  Bruce Almighty lol

I think you have to be more Interesting than that....

If we go by that Creation by GOD was from a Command... then thats like a AI... i dont think going a Curveball that GOD is a Entity that Created all of us in his Sub-Consciousness, so we are just this beings THOUGHTS and a Creation of his  Consciousness... this would be a BIT too much of the MATRIX.

To be Honest i think going to the Base of Creation and GOD is something that should NOT be done, it should remain a MYSTERY..

But going the routes of Wanna be Gods... on Multiple Levels should be Explored... but going to the Level of the Origin of Creation as in the Galaxy, the Universe would be a Poisoned Chalice to attempt to do Justice and should Remain a Mystery.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Nathan Adler

Aug-30-2019 6:57 PM

@BigDave: In the instance of Prometheus it was more than general inspiration, the plot is basically a tick-a-box of AtMoM, and even Guillermo Del Toro realized how much when he decided to abort his long-held plans to bring the original story to cinema.  I don't think we can discount how significantly close to Lovecraft RS's overall underlying origins for the beast and its progenitors are. I just hope if he goes down that path in the next film, the terror experienced by viewers puts the wind up us more than his original Alien. Also, Ridley has expressed on numerous occasion how much of an influence Kubrick's 2001 has been on this series.  Now we know the black obelisk in that latter film was obviously meant to represent a movie screen and was a comment on it and media/ film's ability to move our evolution forward (including through violence). If the LV-223 Engineers' use of flutes is intended to hint at Azathoth, it's interesting to recall the "Blind Idiot God" shifted in his slumber causing reality to change. Given the whole foundation of the film/s is existential horror, I'm convinced that the creator god Elizabeth Shaw was hoping to find is RS's version of this daemon sultan.

Let's hope we get to see Giger's Homage to Böcklin as a sci-fi version of R'lyeh.

chli

Aug-31-2019 5:18 AM

I agree that AI being behind it all would be an interesting twist, BigDave. I wonder how David would react to that? :)

BigDave

Aug-31-2019 6:13 AM

"Let's hope we get to see Giger's Homage to Böcklin"

There was a Homage to this in the Garden where David had a Make Shift Grave for Dr Shaw.

I think such a Image would have been better if we went to the UNDERWORLD and discovered a Island as such.

And again i think by taking some Inspiration from HP Lovecraft is fine, i dont think we would be going to Literal Though. For example the Engineer Elders would not look like the Elder Things from HP Lovecraft but they could be similar only just NOT look the same Aesthetically. So in that Context then YES we do see what could be Supple Influences here and there.

@chli

That would be Interesting, it could make David feel more Worthy and Godlike it could give him IDEAS on how he could become a God...   It also could give such a Entity Ideas of how he could USE our Creations (David/Synthetics).

I think a Revelation that such a Entity had Existed would be Interesting... but i think having SHOW US this Entity or it Interact with David could be a Potential Banana Skin... maybe something thats too Tricky to Cover.

R.I.P Sox  01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

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