New Replies (Page 116)
In Space....You Are Alone.
In space no one can hear your prayer.
or
In space no one will know what you believe.
or
In space no one cares about your faith.
Absolutely excellent!
I think you really nailed the key and central point about religion and such within the ALIENverse and the problems with it!!
Loved your points on Prometheus, I've never thought about it that way before!
The simple answer to your question is that whilst Alien stories may have characters in who have a religious faith, the stories do not need to be themed within the context of exploring where the Dragon fits into a religious environment.
Religion even the word is a signaller for distraction within modern cinema it makes executives nervous because much of their audience will see their belief system being interfered with whilst others who do not believe are distracted by their antagonism. It gets in the way of making a successful movie.
Prometheus is a case in point. Part of the crew and part of the audience watching think it's about religion. It's not its about creation. What it tries to do is use the motifs of religion as a form of communication and reset what creation might be. The gifting of the catalyser to the monk-like cloaked sacrificial personality is a riff on communion. Cavalorn wrote about this years ago, over and over religion is riffed but what they discover is not religion. It's an inversion but for many who do not like allegory or do not function on symbolism, they take it literally. Oh, it's a religious story, it is not.
Prometheus is anti-religion in that Elizabeth is as hubristic as Weyland and arguably suffers more. She is not punished by God there is no God she is punished by self-flagellation.
When I wrote my extension I carried all those notions on. She finds the truth is horrific we are created by technocrats who made their own rules up who punted us. It may dawn on the reader and in a sense, in the end, Elizabeth finds out the truth, but all the myths that we create are a fragment of an entirely different truth.
So where does Christ fit in? He doesn't his action on the cross was a wild guess where he was mostly wrong much the same as Elizabeth. Is that horrific to believers but not non-believers who knows?
David knows the truth because he is the truth, creation is the result of a function. The purpose of creation is to make sense of the emptiness that is all.
Mankind's view of the dragon is it's special, unique, just as in the real world we think we are special and unique. In Prometheus the movie we are an unintended consequence so why not make the dragon the same. But that was just me.
We don't have to worship anything even the dragon.
But I think at a simple entertainment level its best to keep giving the dragon a religious context out of the equation, it subverts the fans worship of it.
Conversations at Home with RAISED BY WOLVES
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZm7xNPdsFA
...and a souvenir
Aliens-Vampirella
https://getcomics.info/other-comics/aliens-vampirella-1-6-2015-digital/
Good topic, been enjoying the back-and-forth!
Great points, all- thanks!
You make some excellent points that I fully agree with and see the basis of.
There's also the point that Faith and Religion are two seperate things. Genuine Faith is powerful, and many confuse faith with piety...when they could not be more different.
Religion...is akin to and kissing-cousin to politics. It's made by man's overwhelming desire for power/authority/control and criminal scammery.
Religion, is entirely hypocritical, and utterly nonsensical. The Abrahamic cults are the worst and exemplify my claims daily.
Religion is an insanely destructive (proven by history) atavism best left behind in the dust. It's as bad as Marxism and all it's derivations in terms of lives taken by it over history and sheer destruction brought about.
Faith...is Personal, and it's wellspring is one's soul.
Jesus spoke of Faith.
Man speaks of Religion.
They're are unconnected and indeed polar-opposites.
Faith in sci-fi...okay, sure, provided it is handled Properly, and correctly.
BUT it always becomes about RELIGION instead of Faith...and religion really has no place in sci-fi except rarely and absolutely NO place in ALIEN.
...Just my thoughts and 2 penny's worth.
It is well within the the producers rights to put what ever religious connections - connotations into these productions; however, religion as a whole is on a decline in western republics. In some parts of the world certain religions are showing signs of increased participation.
Dr. Shaw wears a cross and there is the whole thing of where do we come from in Prometheus....and from the producers of AC it breaks with all human ideas about religion entirely and opens the door indicating that it was alien/Engineers that created humans for some purpose in their image.
I particularly like anything well done....so if these creatives do it correctly then I think it could be possible to have an element of religion play some kind of role in these productions...that being stated, I also believe in no way should religion become the main focus of these movies.
BWW - agreed when making these movies more about religion of any one kind where it supersedes the overall structure then I believe the audience rejects the production because they cannot relate to something they do not understand nor practice. Currently many millions of people simply do not want to participate in any ideas that they perceive being forced on them through someone else's religious dogma.
Going to yoga and meditation classes at some point in your life is different than say growing up in a Christian family....the two ideas are radically different experiences....so people who are not of any particular faith have no way to relate to characters that are depicted as having some kind of faith on screen.
ALIEN is about confronting what is strange and 'horrible' via relative perspective from the Human angle in a dark and unforgiving universe.
Bring in religion and that, the Essence, of ALIEN goes out the airlock.
As a point of 'what is ALIEN?' consider:
As a Human, you have the chance to become Chimeran via gene surgery. It's extremely risky, a 3 to 5% success rate...pas/fail...life/death.
Assuming you survive...
How would your friends and family react?
More importantly, can you handle the sudden shift to an entirely new and very ALIEN viewpoint and way of experiencing life? How hard would it be on you learning about everything your new body can do? How would you cope with a new brain structure that does NOT work based on how the Human brain works?
Can you hang onto your sanity...or would you fail and become a monster?
What if W-Y and other corporations start playing with 'Building Better People'? What would the failures of such efforts be like...how dangerous might they be?
Religion does indeed have it's place...but time has shown that it in anathema to the Essence of ALIEN.
Unless...you handle it in such a way to show it fail and collapse in the face of such a dark and unforgiving universe.
But, if one writes such...then it's mobs with torches and pitchforks at one's door.
OH yes!! More about the Engineers would be VERY welcome I think!!!
Before asking - you need to study the history of the franchise. Alien and Aliens are undeniably the best films in the franchise. Gold standard. It is an indisputable truth. And guess what? They are devoid of religious themes!
The religious aspect first appears in Alien 3 - and from that moment on, the series begins to fall in quality. But I want to ask - why are you so interested in religious themes in Alien? As if this is something smart or sublime! Really? Why are you not interested in science? What - science doesn't sound clever enough?
It would be nice to see the factories and technologies of the Engineers.
That is so true!!
For me, I work and edit and polish until I know I have done the best I can, and that if I keep at it, things will start coming apart.
Then, I resign myself to that fact, take a deep breath, and for better or worse send it off to meet the audience.
Older/classic movies are my Haven nowadays! I know what you mean!!
Blackwinter-witch That's probably why I stick with older stuff and with newer things, it's sort of obscure material.
It's a matter of Subtlety, and in the modern era, they approach social issues with all the finesse of a drunken ork wielding a sledgehammer in a china shop.
The modern approach is soapbox the 'issues' first and tack-on a poorly-written story as an afterthought.
Blackwinter-witch I may have said it before, but a musician I respect was asked if he could make his album better. He said that he could always tinker with things but sooner or later, it had to be released. So you never really finish a project- you really abandon it. BUT- you take lessons learned to make the next one even better. He's made a 40 year career of it.
That is true. I suppose it's possible if the classics I mentioned were re done script and scene perfect today, they might not be well received. That is unfortunate.
Thank-You!!
At some point someone's gonna ask why the ship's named 'Manticore' and it will be addressed...I have it all done really, scene-mapping, just need to find a place to fit it in properly.
Yeppers... Black Christmas. :D
The Classic, NOT that abhorrent remake.
I'm glad you're enjoying it, it didn't come out exactly as I wanted, but as a writer, you have to learn to live with the fact that ONLY when lightning bottles itself does a story come out Exactly As You Want It To. :D
Done properly, yeah, it's fine.
Modern day, they beat the audience over the head with all manner of 'issues' that won't be around in say 100 years.
Parker, he was black...No One Cared.
Lope and the other guy in Alien covenant...were mARRIED...again, ok, NP.
Look at the datafiles on the screen during ripley's hearing in ALIENS...and Lambert and Dallas are Transexuals achieved via genesurgery.
Again...ok, NP.
So, if they wanna get political and social-justice they better put some serious thought into projectiung ahead to what social issues will be relevant THEN...instead of slopping about with crap from our present day...because it's been done, and it kills franchises.
woke = broke
About half way through Interlude and it's pretty good so far. I now know what Manticore means and noticed the tip of the hat to Black Christmas I think? I can only imagine what other references I am missing!
And here I am reading things out of order. smdh
It should have absolutely N O T H I N G to do with current social issues or politics
Fair point, except that sci fi has always dealt with current social issues. Twilight Zone, 1984, Animal Farm, POTA and Star Trek among other works have proved that. That has been one of the things that made the genre so relevant. It doesn't have to name names. It's always interesting to read or watch sci fi from 40 plus years ago and see their cautionary tales weren't very far off the mark.
That said, sci fi also gives the freedom for works to side step all that, As long as it gets and holds the reader's/viewer's interest, it's all good.
Just published the tie-in short story that links ALIEN: Manticore to it's upcoming Sequel. :)
Thank-you for the mention!
W-Y as a basis for a series makes for an interesting and ambitious idea/approach. :)
I would like to see something having to do with the hostilities among the various Human powers that justify the Colonial Marines.
Not all the time, but I'd like inter-colonial hostilities to be a factor...otherwise why have the Marines?
I wouldn't a series to expressly focus on the Uber Elite, nor on the 'truckers'...but some storyline that links various social strata together so we can see the comparison and contrasts.
It should have absolutely N O T H I N G to do with current social issues or politics...there's enough of that in the open sewers of Fakebook and Twatter.
Woke = Broke
As an aside, the tie-in short-story that connects ALIEN: Manticore to the sequel is published. :)
Leto There is a lot of room for being dark and scary in the Alienverse without the Xeno we already know about. Dark machinations were always at work.
I am keeping that approach in-mind...but will test as I go. Less-is-more after all.
But it's a valid idea and if I can make the burst-moments work properly, yes!! :D
...and The Alien should always have some secrets left unanswered. ;)
Blackwinter-witch Having little bursts from the xeno perspective sprinkled throughout could be interesting and possibly become just as memorable of a character as anyone else in the cast.
I can do a little more from the viewpoint of The Alien.
In the sequel, I might add some moments like that in.
In ORIGIN, you'll get a rather unique and involved viewpoint from The Alien's way of experiencing life. :)
That's all I will say, no spoilers, not with ORIGIN. :)
The Xeno can continue but keeping it interesting might be the challenge. I hate to be a broken record (remember those?) but BWW's PERSPECTIVE was a unique take on actually BEING the xeno. It seems like it would be very tricky to sustain a story like that for a longer one. It would be interesting to see a short film like that. The closest I saw was The Alien Covenant VR video In Utero:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2OQ6wT0whA
Hey thanks for letting us all know about the WY book Alien: Covenant - Origins....I will be investigating that soon.
Leto I agree with you very much on many points...Alien could use some new fresh movie ideas to make it super scary.
But I have to admit there is something so appealing to me about the idea soap opera type shows or movies that for one reason or another takes a break from the Alien per say.
Sometimes we all just take a pause, in life, in fiction, and in movies too!
I was not into space soap operas before; but, I really enjoy them now...may I recommend the old Dune and the new Dune coming out.
I know that space dramas are not everyone's cup of tea but I really like them now.....I really liked the drama mixed within AC and the much better horror effects...for me it made the characters in AC more real....so for me the characters seemed like they were taking a beating and it made me hate David even more. Good drama should do that....and I do!!! I hate David's character in the fictional setting of AC....terrible android right.
I think what everyone is trying to do here is important as a process...we are performing a very important logical test out loud, if you will go along with it, it is very important we get a chance to participate....we are constructing a make-believe world; however, we are all adults so when we do "suspension of disbelief", one of the most important aspects of fiction - sometimes it can take a long process of presenting ideas out load so others may critique them.
These are all great ideas that can certainly be worked on and a really interesting story can be crafted with them....in other words we might like to take this a bit further and put some meat on the bones in another formal setting through chat where we can talk about it more.
I know the ideas may not appeal you to directly but please accept the process which we all must adhere to. We all get more out of this the more we participate.
I come here primarily to hear! / read - what others are saying because I like to write myself and learn how others understand this fictional world....give this a chance my friend you will see there is much more going on here.
Every once in a great while you come across almost complete perfection....No offence but BWW is harvesting some real good stuff from this back and forth and that is perfectly ok...because so am I....it's all good! I promise no one will be harmed LOL by any one of us suggesting new ideas!
What exactly do you mean by a "fresh approach"?
What will the characters do? Discuss salary? Or make secret deals? How does this relate to the Alien?! It's like, well, you know - RbW - a story about an android who builds his kind world. Sounds boring and does not relate to the Alien at all. It's the same with WY - create a similar show and don't waste Alien resources on third-party nonsense.
Even the story of the life of a certain colony (like Hadley's Hope) will be more interesting than anything about WY. Create a city, place some secrets under the planet's surface. Show exploration, survival and nightmarish consequences. You can even put multiple agents from different warring corporations and add blissful androids. And this already sounds more interesting than the "fresh approach" with discussions about salaries.
Btw, the book about WY is already out - it's called Alien: Covenant - Origins.
Leto Seegson could definitely be involved. Isolation brought that up as did Resurrection with Walmart. I don't expect it to be done but it would be an aspect of the Alienverse I would like to see. It doesn't have to have any characters who have appeared in the films- maybe a few brief nods but that's it. It would be more of an origins series of WY.
I would like to see how that part developed. It might sound boring to you, but I think it could be a fresh approach.
Good idea... for a book! Not for a film or TV series - just a wasted time & potential to explore NEW ALIEN WORLDS.
I hope you understand, that it sounds much more boring than 6 more films about David and his world. How far can we go after WY? Stories about the lives of individual (deceased) characters? Stories about Jones and Spike?
This is all a distraction from the main route. It's just a waste of time and resources on secondary things.
I'll ask one question - if you have a decade to get ONE and ONLY ONE project in the Alien universe - will you choose WY's dark machinations over new stories about Alien, Engineers, other worlds with any new creatures ?
P.S. I can’t resist the second snide question - what's the point of getting hung up on WY, but not on Seegson or any other new corporation?
The franchise has already suffered from the fact that fixated on Ripley. And people don't seem to have enough discernment to realize that WY is also looping and destroying the franchise.
I would like to see more WY focus. It's always been there and really didn't seem to get much focus until Resurrection and the prequels.
We know the beasts are vicious, the military presence does its thing and the androids have received a lot of attention.
I want to see the dirty deeds and back room "drug deals" that WY is up to. Maybe it involves greasing politicians, manipulating the public for support that makes them feel great about being blinded into their funding programs that makes them guinea pigs. Make them feel good and proud about being sheep led to the slaughter and realizing the truth after it's too late.
Not an original idea, but it could be interesting in the Alienverse.
So do I, I spend a lot of time thinking about all kinds of sci-fi stuff...kinda self-evident. :D
Been playing with that site and I love it, I really do!!
I have a mouse with adjustable dpi, and whenI run it up to maximum, I get a really fine degree of control...and am hunting for Zeta II Reticuli...I know it's in there somewhere...has to be.
Hey, no problem. I like thinking about this kind of stuff.
Yes, that site is awesome, isn’t it. There are some real bright sparks at Google. It works really well on an iPad, where you can easily pinch to zoom, and rotate super smoothly. I particularly like how you can zoom right out to see most of the Galaxy and, if you rotate the view to see it edge on, how thin the galactic plane is, relatively speaking.
THANK-YOU for the link to that site....it is AWESOME!! It's an incredible new tool for me to handle research with regarding astronomy and such for my work!!!! :D
(((HUG)))
Ty for telling me what you thought of my idea!! I'll be handing it to my Chimerans, of course, and Ty for being a sounding-board! :)
Sounds perfectly logical to me, BWW. If you're looking for a reference frame that is independent of any particular culture, I'd say that's a sound choice. Go for it!
NB, for interested readers of this thread, I came across a very neat website today. It shows a 3D map of a huge number of stars. If you find a star of interest, you can click on its name to see its info. Then when you click the return button, the 3D map is centred on the star you looked at. You can then spin the view around, and zoom in and out. It's a great way to see how the appearance of stars in the sky truly depends on where you're looking from.
Unfortunately, I don't see an easy way to search for stars by name (e.g. Zeta 2 Reticuli).
Maybe Big Dave has a few days spare to hunt it down, and show how the stars would appear from there!
100,000 Stars
The Sequel is progressing, and there is a tie-in short story along with it--as mentioned--that covers the short flight between the Zeta II and Zeta I star systems.
The sequel will lead to a third story, so yes this will be a trilogy.
In the third story, there is absolutely NO 'script-immunity' for anyone or anything.
BUT, that should not be taken to suggest I'll be engaging in a slaughter. It simply means that everyone and everything is 'fair game'.
I like to work 'without a net'. :)
Loved what you said in this post!!
Just a small example of one point I really liked!!
"One thing I like about how things are not explained alot is the horror of finding out theres no deeper meaning to things we see when rummaging around in some creapy old engineer ruins."
You make good-points about 'Sun-Centric' and they are logical, practical I admit.
But, in the questing for a truly 'Baseline Universal' standard, I'd like to ask your opinion on the following:
1; Base Center is the Hypermassive Black Hole
2; The Starting Reference (12 o' clock) is the fastest rotating Pulsar in the galaxy.
This is a point for me because while solar-centric makes absolute sense as I conceded above, my Chimerans do not think like Humans or Engineers, and are developing/coming to understand their own cultural and psychological customs which affects their choice and use of solar-centrism as much as psychological customs do Humanity's and the Engineer's choices in doing so.
They have no current Home System, they reside in the Lakota system in the Hyades but to them they are 'guests' while searching for a system to claim as their own home...thus trying to base things off the Lakota system's star would feel too much to them as 'wrongful claiming'.
They would want a Universal Baseline Standard as a hedge in case starships get lost due to nav errors or whatever comes up.
This way, even if a starship suffers a complete and absolute erasure of all it's charts and nav data, that data base can be easily rebuilt using ship sensors and the Universal Baseline Navigational Reference.
As well, it makes it easier to translate nav databases collected from, say Engineer or other being's nav systems and charts.
