New Replies (Page 194)
Certainly Leto
We dont know how those Created/Raised Children of David would React to incoming Humans, they could be caught in a Conflict of Loyalty to David or feeling Betrayed for his Lies.
The Potential for one of his Creations becoming the Space Jockey is something that could have been a Option.
So David could Engineer those Human Embryo's to be Different, to be a Race that Relies more on Telepathic Communication, a Race that has a Faster Growth Rate from Infant to Adult. A Race that has a degree of Regenerative Ability and so they would Reach Adulthood in say 5 Years and then Naturally have a Life Expectancy of say 300 Years.
This would Certainly be a Plot Convenience for when Humans Turn up to Discover Giants..
But these beings DONT have to be to TALL though, they could be 7ft but i think having them use some of the Unused Concepts as far as No Ear Lobes and Elongated Skulls would be ideal.
David had after all conducted similar Experiments on Engineer Infants.
So something a bit more HUMAN than this would NOT go out of Place.
"(particularly since he is not the creator in the novelization)."
I think as discussed before its hard to say what is Canon, as this seemed to be ADF just adding something that was NEVER in the Drafts, the Drafts indicated more so that David was the Creator.
I will add that again for the RECORD... i too think the route that David as the Creator and the Space Jockey as being something that was on LV-426 for Less than 20 Years are TOTALLY the Wrong Path to take.
Until we have a Conclusion then things can be changed i just hope they offer a Explanation for what David had done instead. But it would likely NOT be touched on and become a Conflict and Considered a Oversight.
The chances of a Direct Sequel to Alien Covenant are SLIM, i think IF we get a Continuation then maybe it would be a AFTERMATH of what ever would have happened in a Alien Covenant 2.
However with DISNEY in Charge and how they seem to like things done, i do think there is a SLIM chance of offering a Continuation to Alien Covenant.... i would NOT be surprised if we get a Prequel Reboot.
Or a Movie that goes to LV-426 on the other side of the Moon to where Hadleys Hope is, and they Discover a Partially Buried Pyramid and when they go there, they Discover a Queen and Ancient Eggs and then show some Derelict Type Ships in Hangers with Egg Cargo ready to go, but their Pilots did not manage to Leave the Place.
Well, there's not likely going to be an AC2 so whether David created the xeno-variant we see in Alien or not is open to debate (particularly since he is not the creator in the novelization).
I prefer the view that David has a screw loose, believing he has created this perfect organism. You could argue that the Deacon (on the mural) is more perfect. The Deacon born by the Engineer is fully developed, 4 extremities, (as is David's "creation") but the chestburster in Alien is not and seems very vulnerable. David's "creation" also runs on for legs and is, therefore, quicker and more lethal. The Deacon could have been a much deadlier predator - the perfect organism.
I prefer seeing the Space Jockey as old as Dallas says it is, and connected to the outbreak on LV-223.
40,000 species of spider on Earth
https://www.insectidentification.org/spiders.asp
...I'd imagine hundreds or thousands of xeno types?
David created type 1,536 out of 1,535.
So far Davids creation is a failure...killing less than 200 humans(and one dog)in 300 years....(More humans have died on Earth slipping on banana peels I'd imagine)
'he Raises (maybe Engineers) those Human Embryo's'
I can't believe David would want to raise humans...This sounds like something Walter would do... David has had enough of humanity. I do agree he'd probably engineer the embyros to his liking.
If they travel to Origae 6 ...I really not sure how they would tie the prequels to the original series?
Maybe Dallas or any of the Nostromo crew have a son/daughter or relative on the Covenant? I don't know.
Maybe the Covenant colony is such a spectacular failure...W T have to start terraforming worlds near Earth....one of the explanations for terraforming a small rocky world like LV-426...they're really scraping the bottom of the barrel with that moon! Rocks, lava and small! LV-223 should have been higher on the terraforming list(it was probably terraformed first?).
The Killer Crab Alien Vs. Aqua Alien sounds like a title of an Asylum movie.
Mecha-Sharknado Vs. Zombi-Godzilla for example
Or there is another option.
What if an incoming humans (from Earth) have a sinister agenda. They may even try to disable or destroy David. And, if David was kind to their children, then David's children can look at people from Earth as evil. Idk how... (plot hole) ...but they can get Juggernaut with alien eggs and try to come to Earth with righteous anger and destroy humanity. Like David with Engineers. But pilot was infected by facehugger and the ship crashed on LV-426.
Such a turn will give a) the dead Space Jockey a more sinister note. b) It will explain how the company became aware of Alien. c) And in the end, there will be no thought about how to turn David into a Space Jockey or infected him with Alien.
I think that is the way to look at it, as while some of the Material and Deleted Scenes may have pushed us to consider a certain way the Engineers see us..
I think when working on WHERE to go NEXT in Context to looking at Post Prometheus and so say prior to 2013, then those Engineers were Painted in a Different Light, and so indeed it is likely we are INSIGNIFICANT and those Engineers certainly from LV-223 are NOT in anyway Benevolent.
And so the comments you made are Important such as we view David as a Toaster.... those Engineers could see us as merely MICE... and so if they had MANY LABS where they kept and raised these MICE then the Loss of One Cage or Whole Lab would mean NOTHING really to them.
By that its just like you indicate, we dont know how many other Worlds they have Seeded Similar to us so we are not Unique or Special we could be just ONE of 5, 10, 20, 50 or 100 other such Creations... who are not Important to the Engineers or Loved as say we would Care for our own Offspring.
So indeed Turning up to meet these Creators where we may be Totally Insignificant and then maybe wondering WHY they dont love us as Dr Shaw's Faith would have us believe... is something that Certainly would be Interesting to see the Reaction, from not ONLY those would be GODS but Dr Shaw too.
I think exploring the Dynamic of David and Dr Shaw would be interesting too David has never really known any Love from Mankind, and Dr Shaw could maybe see he is just a Product of his Environment and Upbringing
Everyone is BORN a Innocent Child and Environment and Upbringing can lead to Weyland or a Dr Shaw and so a Interesting thing with David, that the Alien Covenant Trailer Song and The Crossing seem to show is to let us WONDER.... if David was Activated and Brought up by a KIND SOUL like Dr Shaw then HOW would he have turned out.
They both realize that a lot of Mankind is Wicked.... but then David may have felt the same for all of Mankind, but with Dr Shaw he sees some Compassion and its Interesting to see how he would have reacted to that... The Crossing was Interesting... but Alien Covenant seems to indicate it was all a RUSE by him to take Control.
Such a Waste with that Movie, as far as the Potential through Dr Shaw and David and our Engineers.
I kind of Understand where your coming from, the Xenomorph in Alien was some kind of Organism more than a Machine, it was very ALIEN and it had that HR Giger Aesthestic that was brought to LIFE.
After the First ALIEN we saw these more Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic get Toned Down with each Movie, and with Alien Covenant the Xenomorph looks VERY Organic in Comparison.
The Classic Version seems to have what look like some Mechanical Elements to it, Pipes and the Like, its Exo-Skeleton looked like a Suit of Sorts.
I get the Impression that Oriage-6 would have been a Primordial Virgin kind of World. It seems it is suitable to be able to Inhabit but it would likely not have the Diversity of Flora and Fauna that Planet 4 or Earth has, but it would be a World where you could introduce Plants and Animals from Earth and they would Flourish.
How would such a World connect to the Engineers though? If we are going to make a Connection then in this case it would be a World that maybe is in its Final Stages of being Ready to begin a Engineers Seeding.
In which case if the Engineers discover that Humans are off to this Primordial Virgin Planet, they would want to STOP them so they dont TAINT this World.
We could also consider that it was a World that had some Ancient Civilization that was Hundreds of Thousands of Years OLD and had been Eradicated say 35'000, 70'000 or 150'000 Years ago.... And is in the Process of Recovering Ecologically for the Engineers to then ONE DAY go ahead and Re-seed.
But then we dont know what Origae-6 would be like so it could be a more Baron, Desert like place that is Habitable just as say the Middle East is and we could still have it that there are Remnants of a Ancient LONG GONE Civilization.
I think when looking at the PLOT we have to ask what would DAVID have to gain..... he surely would NOT want to have Daniels Alive.....
So if he pretends to be Walter, and the Colonist help to Build this World they intended, and then discover that this WORLD had ONCE had a Civilization before, those Colonist would be Interested.
IF however he uses some Colonist to Build a Basic Colony, that is mainly out of Wood.... so more like a Ancient Medieval Settlement that would have some Stone Buildings but mainly would be Wooden... then ONCE he has this.
He then KILLS the Colonist and then he Raises (maybe Engineers) those Human Embryo's then to them he could give them ANY kind of History and Origin to their kind, even proclaim himself as Creator.
For such a PLOT... those Creations Humanity MK2 of David's would surely have some Questions if they Uncover Ancient Ruins of a Long Lost Civilization, especially if David informed them that on this WORLD there was Nothing and that David Created them from Nothing.
So David in this case would NOT want them to go and make some Archeological Discoveries ;)
IF we assume such a Plot.... a mainly Wooden Village where Hundreds or Thousands of Human Children from those Embryo's are raised with NO KNOWLEDGE about the Covenant Ship and its Adult Colonist.
How would those New Colonist that are a bit different, feel when another Human Ship turns up, especially one with a WALTER Synthetic... can you imagine what those Raised Children would think?
They see Humans who look similar to them but a bit different, they see another being WHO looks Identical to their GOD/CREATOR..... what happens when those Raised Children would then Discover that David is NO God, and that their Origins are from Mankind, and that their Would be God is Actually a Creation of themselves, well their TRUE Ancestors.
This is HOW i Interpreted Ridley Scotts comments about Alien Awakening, and this is the Plot (in Part) that i had for my idea on a Alien Covenant 2 which would have been Alien Ascension.
I mentioned this many Months before the announcement of Raised by Wolves, which seems to have a similar Plot... so i wonder if Raised by Wolves is in Part what RS had planned for Awakening that he had decided to make into a TV Series as he felt his ideas would NEVER get to see the day of LIGHT as a Alien Covenant Sequel?
Oh, it is awesome!
Very funny comments are here)
Ohh...thanks!
But wait a minute... I just read a snippet of "Alien Resurrection"'s plot on Wikipedia, and I remember I saw it before when I was a bit younger with my grandpa and dad... and I'm scarred for life XD
I can try it again though, maybe I won't be as shook (Edit, NEVERMIND, I saw Prometheus, not Alien R. OOF)
Thanks for the recommendations, DK.
Wonder how they studied Origae 6? With a space telescope?
That means the image is 1700 years old.....much can change in that time..Earth went from living under the stars to traveling to them in span.
Asteroid collision could have wiped the surface...happens on Earth and maybe the Origae system doesn't have a Jupiter to gobble up stray killer asteroids.
BigDave
I actually think that the original Alien monster looked more organic, more real and alive than the xenomorphs in AC. I think it might have to do with CGI not being used at the time. It was a man in a suit and you saw very little of the monster, but when you did, it looked real: smooth motions, drooling jaws etc.
Giger's art is biomechanical, and the creature doesn't look real in his art, not living, but the creature in the movie does.
"All about everything."
One of the essential differences between the A L I E N franchise and the projected P R OM E T H E U S franchise is the former is grounded in a Universe of Mankind where the only thing that is out there is to coin a phrase "a noise in the attic" and the latter is saying Mankind is a foot note and everything is out there.
Once you take the latter on board its much easier to make sense of how the dark angels would have viewed us.
One of the unexpected pleasures of this project has been taking a scene from the movie and writing it down. I am just doing a final correction read through and have reached the point where Elizabeth gives birth but its scenes like David attending to Meredith when she wakes up which tell us so much about a potential creator/creation relationship. David is essentially a utility, in one of Damons scripts or IV's he describes David as a Toaster. So then apply that to what the Engineers thought of their creation out of rebellion, asking why did they come here is obvious, idol curiosity and to stir the pot. Its just its very hard for human beings not to be human centric in their view.
I mentioned recently that D & E are not so much in love with each other but out of love with everything else.
It really begins with "what if they are no better than us" but twice Elizabeth reflects on the fact that she had very little in common with the six billion souls that Janek, Chance and Ravel save. David not only recognises in Elizabeth that she treats him entirely different to anyone has before but she shares his puzzlement with mankind.
Then go to the next level. If the dark angels made us then what about the other guys who travel the Universe Seeding worlds would they really be taking an interest in whether Samantha or Craig got their grades what would be the pre occupations of a God who uses knowledge to sustain the Universe through billions of years ?
I like the story of battling different xenomorphs and the winner going after its creators. Sort of a revenge/just desserts type story.
Kamoebas V.6 and Flyleaf-Rapt0r I would encourage you to watch the Quadrilogy (Alien through Resurrection). It seems you are into action maybe and the xeno itself so I would actually recommend watching Resurrection first. There are themes in that movie that are similar to the OT story. (You might even see an aqua xeno of sorts lol!)
Welcome to the forum and expressing interest into the franchise- it's never too late to watch!
Side note. I am not familiar with the Aqua and Killer Crab. I would sort of expect the Killer Crab to win if fighting under water- that is where it would have its best mobility along with claws and the tail with its spear. Crabs don't generally do well on land but are quite swift and efficient in their under water element. The Aqua Xeno appears to not have any kind of exo skeleton or protection on its limbs, so the KC should be able to shred its flesh?
Actually, a crab can be formidable on land too. Imagine if it was bred with a xenomorph:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QaAKi0NFkA
Love the ancient astronaut Nazca lines! That gets my vote.
I think it should be a lifeless world to save on budget.
I'm starting to think there would should be a security force among the Covenant colony?
@hox
Yeah..I just re-watched the scene...Sounds like a bunch of writer/plot induced nonsense.
"Our super powerful data acquisition service only extends a couple of feet from the exterior of the ship.....perhaps we should have upgraded to a ham radio?"
I'd Rather have had MUTHUR tell them it was an unessential signal and to continue on their mission....but that might bring up a MUTHUR can't be trusted plot line.
"What are you hiding MUTHUR?!"
@MonsterZero, some kind of account was given in the movie as to why the Planet 4 signal wasn't picked up by the ship. Something about Tennessee being beyond the extent of their internal communication buffers, or something like that.
Should I get into Alien?
I like xenomorphs, I think they're cool
But I'm a baby and I probably couldn't get through 1 movie
Certainly some Remnants of a Long Lost Civilization with the remains of Hangers and other Landing Platforms/Run Ways would be Interesting.
I think its always Interesting to Speculate about the Xenomorph and especially as far as a Engineered Weapon.
So those who would Create/Engineer such a Organism would surely like to Experiment with Different Versions and put them to BATTLE so they can then see which Experiment/Hybrid would be the more Superior in Application
"Put simply Prometheus the Movie is a morality tale about hubris on every single level"
+
"Jon Sphaits makes it clear when describing the choice of the title that it is about rebellion, theft of technology and punishment"
Totally Agree this is how i see the Movie too.
The whole Christ Aspect i am Glad they toned away from that, the Notion that RS had instead implied he was a Emissary i find is more Interesting, and has some applications.
The David and Sexual Desires is Interesting as we see David Lacks any Sexual Organs and Hormones and so i also think that it would be ODD for him to have such Desires... i think maybe he could be Frustrated that he Cant Create, if he Deems that the Inability to Create is what makes him just a TIN CAN... but then i think he would Pursue other Less Natural ways to Create, which we had seen in Alien Covenant. And what we see with what the Engineers had also been up to.
With Dr Shaw i feel she had Accepted that she could-not Create, i think if she could have Bore Child then it maybe could have Effected her Reasons to go for Answers... by having NO ability to Naturally Create Life, she had NOTHING but the Pursuit of WHY these Would-be Gods wanted to Created and then Destroy us.
So i found it Interesting as far as if David started to Feel Compassion for her, that WHAT if he had suggested he could TRY and find a way to allow her to Give Birth... to Start a New Eden..... would she have REJECTED him? David seemed to have indicated as such.
But in this is in Context to how it turned out, and not as in Terms of HOW you would have Chosen to Take things.
I think its Very Interesting as far as what you are Choosing as far as to Tackle a lot of the Subjects at hand.
When Speculating about the Answers, in Part i was always drawn to our Creation not being much different to Davids, and i think a Good Analogy would also apply to the PLOT of the Planet of the Apes Reboot.... there was NO LOVE in the Artificial Evolution of that Chimp, and Science would just Further Evolve and see what these Improvements would allow, NOT to the Chimps benefit but as merely a way to HIGHLIGHT just how Great the Genetic Engineering of those Scientists really is....
What would be the END GAME to that Plot? it surely would not have been to allow such Chimps like Caesar to become a New Branch of Humanity where they can Live Among Mankind as another Race of Humanity... Nope i feel it would have been to put them to USE for Tasks so that Mankind would NO-LONGER have to do them... much like how Androids would be USED.
And so this is HOW i mainly viewed our Relationship with the Engineers as Intended by them.. By that i am talking Broadly, as far as the Applications of the Discovery of the Agent ALZ-112 not so much its Original Intention.. so i was drawn to the Engineers motives being similar in that our Creation was done ONLY for some Benefit for them on ONE hand and maybe to Highlight what they COULD do on the other.
And so Fundamentally "The Engineers did not create us out of love but curiosity. They did not visit it us because they loved us they visited us to toy with us give us a bit of rope and see whether we hung ourselves" I agree with this ;)
KENNER ALIEN TOYS! I always wanted these as a kid
@MonsterZero
The TWO Xenomorphs is interesting to Ponder, as i said before in other topics the Lazy Route would be that they Produce a Egg Laying Queen... but i dont think Ridley Scott would have gone the Camerons Queen route. But as far as the Egg Morph i think that is something he could have Explored. The other way to Mass Produce a Xenomorph from TWO would be IF he has any Black Goo, he could then use this to obtain and then merge the Xenomorph Traits to either those Embryo's or even Egg Cells. And so i would assume we would have seen ONE or BOTH of those Methods of getting more Xenomorphs and NOT any Camerons Queen.
@hox
Indeed such a Plot (Upload his Soul) could become a Plot Convenience for any eventual Conclusion, as it would NOT be dependent on having to re-cast Micheal Fassbender. I would suspect that any AI based sequel could indicate a Transcendence of Davids Soul to the Company Computer Systems and so in effect MUTHUR could become David. And so a Company who at some point is RAN by the AI of David would explain the Agenda of Obtaining the Xenomorph without any Concerns of the Human Cost.
@Leto
I think it really depends on WHERE they would take us, it does appear that RS had intended at least TWO more movies before we discover who is in that Chair on the Derelict. It appears that Oriage-6 will be the setting of at least the Next Movie, and the Incoming Engineers could likely had been the Source of the Derelict.
For the Prequels to Chronologically Conclude with the Derelict on LV-426, then a Engineer Ship would either have to be heading to LV-223 or leaving LV-223 at the Climax of the Prequels before that SHIP is FORCED to Land on LV-426
But thats ONLY if they Continue with Chronologically Connecting to ALIEN.
Neutrino burst:
I find it more interesting that MUTHUR didn't alert them to Shaw's signal. Tennessee had to pick it up on his suit! Mother probably deemed it unnecessary for the intended mission....then probably relayed it Earth?
Its garbage...
By the way,this is what the Xenomorphs i chose look like:
Aqua Alien
Killer Crab Alien
tbh
I don't like idea that next film will be "about AI". It just sounds boring. And inspires thoughts about another android-show, what AC has already done. Yeah, yeah - AI it's not only androids, but whatever you want. It seems that Ridley has his own meaning of AI.
And I don't like idea that David return to LV-223 or stack on Planet-4. It's just a waste of expectations and marking time. It must be Origae-6; possibly with connection to LV-426, but not necessary.
As you know my style on the forum is to offer my conclusions and why, rather than your speculative approach of rehearsing all the potential questions.
So I will answer your speculations and provide answers and why.
There are many sources relating the story of Prometheus, some of which are contradictory,
This is a quote from a paper on the link between Prometheus his brother and Frankenstein. The argument the writer uses to make his point is based on this
Percy Shelley describes Prometheus as a character “susceptible of being described as exempt from the taints of ambition, envy, revenge, and a desire for personal aggrandisement”.
So one needs to interpret whether the film and its title come from this particular notion/ variation of the myth and the answer is NO.
Jon Sphaits makes it clear when describing the choice of the title that it is about rebellion, theft of technology and punishment. That is the Prometheus that the film deals with and that was the guiding principle for what the travellers come into.
That the Engineers visited earth is a given in the film and the book.
The earth is a petri dish in which mankind is an experiment according to the narrative.
The story of Weyland/David is a personal metaphor of our relationship with our creators and David has been upgraded 8 times and Weyland does not love David he improves him. He revels in his achievement but humiliates him (in the holographic speech)
The facts are that mankind learned to read write and kill with even more ruthless efficiency in double quick time in a 10,000 year span from 18,000 to 8,000 years ago which is a point that Elizabeth in my story is pondering as we come across her for the first time in my book.
So taking these three things together the mode of creation by these dark angels is out of a desire for self expression. That self expression reaches its Zenith or Nadir, depending how you look at it, when they decided to pursue an upgrade 2,000 years ago.
In between our creation they visit us until the point 2,000 years ago when they wanted to destroy us.
The visits represent observation, a desire to show off their knowledge and see what we do with it. Prima facie they did not come to bring love healing and grace because thats not where we ended up. We got more knowledgeable more fractionalised and learned to kill each other with more efficiency.
The film makers considered looking at whether Christ was the trigger, the end point and rejected it as a more general sense of displeasure. But thats a speculative conversation over a latte with a journalist none of this comes out in the Furious Gods what comes out is what the Moon was doing was wrong and the Engineers got bitten on the bum.
Personal
I cannot see how you can ascribe Christ to the notion that he is connected to dark angels who make monsters. A very interesting paper was written at the time by a catholic theologian who made the point that christ was left out, thats what Lindelof said, but 2,000 was deliberate and that the message of the cross would be seen to be caught up in the broader explanation of what would be offered in the second film. He makes a distinction between the Gnostic Engineers of the Moon (who were wiped out) and the Universal Engineers of the Waterfall Incident of millions of years ago and there relationship would provide an explanation of how the Cross fits into the story. Whatever story one choses to write that supposition is logical and coherent.
David
Again to retain the integrity of the movie Prometheus I started from the point that David did not have a sexual agenda or in robot terms it was not part of his programme. What he did have is a capacity for understanding human emotions and began to build up a series of experiences which he could use and as Michael said he played it that they had cognitive meaning to him. Charlie began to irritate him but he did not target him he just happened to be there. Whereas by the end of the movie he wanted his parent Weyland dead. Don't we all? No David.
So the David that Elizabeth heals/repairs does not have a sexual agenda.
Elizabeth
There is nothing to suggest she wants to be cured of being barren she just offers a sense of regret in the movie. However events overtake her and like everyone else on the journey she receives her answer but it isn't quite what they asked for.
In summary in my view Elizabeths journey is a philosophical one looking for a complete answer not a complete body. The Mutagen (of Prometheus) hijacks her and we never got to see if that had any more application than in the Crossing were she was dying of it according to her director and the actress that played her.
Summary
The Engineers did not create us out of love but curiosity. They did not visit it us because they loved us they visited us to toy with us give us a bit of rope and see whether we hung ourselves.
David did not have a sexual agenda.
Elizabeth did not desire to make good her barren body.
David should die off in a viral video like Shaw did. I wasn't a big Shaw fan but the character deserved a better send off. As for Shaw, so for David.
MonsterZero Good choice! And that basket ball shot........
Happy birthday to the true queen! Gonna watch Alien:Resurrection to celebrate.
'Ridley Scott had claimed the Next Movie would be about AI, and What Kind of a World that David would Create and NOT about the Xenomorph he had also said the Replicants are a AI'
With 2 embryo's, that's 2 xenomorphs?.so yeah...I'd say less xeno action...Unless the laboratory aboard the Covenant is something special or a modded food replicator(joke).
David: Space Jockey
David has already crashed(or been shot down)a juggernaut! I can't believe they would repeat that idea?
I mean, he crashes one in AC and another in AC2?!?
I really hope they don't do this.
I'm with you, BigDave, on the idea of the Space Jockey being an ancient race. I've always thought that would be a more interesting backdrop to the story.
Interesting point about David perhaps uploading his 'soul' from one creation to another. That would actually be a get-out option if he wasn't available to take part in another movie. I'd still like to see Fassbender back in action, though.
Happy Birthday Miss Weaver
