New Replies (Page 195)

David could still end up the Space Jockey and have it FIT with the Prometheus Themes that are Overlooked.

David is a Creation of Mankind... yet he is Created as SUPERIOR in many ways.

LV-223 Engineers are NOT the Original Engineers, those on Planet 4 are and yet they look In-Superior.

The Deacon was worshiped in some way, it was indicated by David that "sometimes to Create, One must First Destroy" and so this could imply those Engineers saw the Deacon as a Natural Order of Evolution they had Engineered.

David had experimented on many things on Planet 4, but saw the Xenomorph as his Masterpiece.

So what we have really is the Pursuit of Perfection from Sub Creating.

Ridley Scott had claimed the Next Movie would be about AI, and What Kind of a World that David would Create and NOT about the Xenomorph he had also said the Replicants are a AI

when he told Daniels i will TUCK the Children in, before he Regurgitated those Embryo's then this all adds up to some Plans for those Embryo's

It is likely David would UPLOAD himself into a Walter Spare Body made from Parts...

IF we see David goes on to Engineer/Create a Humanoid Figure that he sees as Superior, then a ULTIMATE Hubris for him could come from either.

1) This Race Rebels...

2) He Uploads his Soul to this Creation

IF he say does Option (2) and Creates a 10ft Superior Humanoid, with somewhat Regenerative Ability where he would see this Physical Body as Superior or more Beneficial than his OWN (like maybe he can Procreate in this Body)   Then for him to have his SOUL in this NEW Form could come back to BITE HIM if he was to be Infected with the Xenomorph!

I would NOT have put this past being similar to the Plans...

But i would much Rather the Space Jockey being some Ancient Race who have some Connection to the Engineers.

Regarding FTL Communications we had that in ALIENS, contact between Hadleys Hope and Weyland, but this is set 85 Years after Dr Shaws Warning.   I would doubt that Contact from the Prometheus to Earth would have taken 39 Years we can assume it would take at least TWO Years though.

Regarding the Neutrino Burst it was a Plot Device, and maybe something NOT SO thought out... they should have indicated Gamma Ray Damage.

Its indicated it was purely Coincidence via the Birth of a New Star.  The Covenant was likely just on its way to Origae-6.   How did David use his Security Code, thats something for a Conspiracy, he could have Programed that into the Ship in a Period of Time that was NOT shown in the Course of the Movie.  But to do this he would have had to use Walters Security Codes and so we have a bit of Plot Hole, where we can ask HOW did he obtain those and YET fail to obtain knowledge about the Cabin on the Lake... Likely Answer he only Probed Walter for Specific Information.

It would be ODD for David to issue a Warning (Derelict) and then if he had a Change of Heart then WHY not Transmit it into a Language that Humans would Understand?

So whatever Route they take, i think it would be IDEAL to keep the Space Jockey and the SOS as None Human, None Android and also NOT by something David would Create in Future.... and so keep it as a Engineer unless we reveal another Ancient Species for the Space Jockey.

'Yes FTL communications is canon as evidenced in Aliens and Covenant.'

Ahh. Thanks.

David as the space jockey....He could of had passengers(other than the eggs!)? The derelict on LV-426 wasn't thoroughly explored by the Nostromo....There could still be Engineers or humans still in cryo chambers? Maybe the passenger(s) turned on the beacon and then died/rescued.

One thing about David possibly being the Space Jockey on LV-426. I don't think that could be true. He's not stupid. Why would he transmit (or allow to be transmitted) a warning message from the derelict ship? Ripley decoded the message and interpreted it as a warning. That's not David's intent at all if he wants the destruction of mankind / Engineers. Unless, of course, he had a change of heart. Anything's possible when you go crazy, I suppose. And he was crazy.

"Neutrino burst is not a wall or wave. > It is a sphere with a very small diameter".

This is not true. The result of a cataclysmic event (e.g. a supernova) can send out a blast of neutrinos that expands as a shell that increases in diameter forever. It thins out over time, obviously but can travel right across the universe.

Where Covenant gets it quite wrong is that neutrinos very rarely interact with regular matter and would not mess about with the spaceship in the way that it was portrayed in the movie. Neutrinos stream out from the centre of our Sun all the time in vast quantities as a result of nuclear reactions in the Sun's core. They travel straight out from the core through half a million miles of the Sun, 8 minutes through space, right through the Earth and right through your body. Trillions pass through your body every second and you don't know about it. Neutrinos are absolutely tiny. A neutrino is to an atom as an atom is to a solar system. On Earth we have to fill massive tanks with special chemicals to detect solar neutrinos. If we're lucky, a few detection events occur every year. That's how feebly they interact with regular matter.

2) Had the Company prior to 2122 detected Dr Shaws Warning and WHY had they NOT been back to LV-223 (or could they have?).

3) and WHY had it not been Investigated between 2094 and 2105 (or had it?).

4) And then WHY had they not been to Investigate prior to 2122 with the Nostromo (or had they?)

I think, we can use Alien: Covenant as a hint. This is so strange that Covenant flying across the huge space and get damage by "immossible" neutrino burst. > Neutrino burst is not a wall or wave. > It is a sphere with a very small diameter. > This sphere went straight to the ship. > In the end, the crew received the message from the planet, which was located a couple of weeks from them. By cosmic standards, this is closer than the distance between your head and the monitor.

Coincidence or someone's plan? David activate some Engineers technologies? Or WY sent Covenant in the proposed location of the disappearance of Prometheus?

Or both. WY sent Covenant as a gift for David? The "Covenant" word also mean "contract", "deal". This can be the one huge deal between WY and David. And, of course, David wants to destroy the humanity, but it's his wishes. This does not contradict the fact that he can work on WY. This can be subconsciously, with hidden subroutines.

I try not to get caught up in time lines. I watch the movies for what they are and see that Prometheus is first followed by AC and then the Quadrilogy. Theatrically, it seems we need a follow up to AC if nothing else for David's story arc. 

The above posts suggest time travel whether by FTL or worm holes. Those would be new concepts to pitch a follow up to Disney- whom already seems lukewarm to Alien at best. Theatrically, I think we need Awakening (whatever that might be) or a sequel to Resurrection. Anything else should be explored via streaming services imo.

Yes FTL communications is canon as evidenced in Aliens and Covenant.

I don't know if FTL communication is canon or not in the Alien verse?

Shaw's message is going to take 39 years to reach Earth...Maybe the relay can open a wormhole(or some other trope) and transmit instantly?

I hope for no FTL communication....feels more isolated...you are truly on your own. Only way to deliver a message quickly is a fast vessel/probe.

Prometheus should have been a sequel of Alien.

Yes! Works for me.

Consent 

Within the narrative there are issues about non consensual demands without explanation of the consequences.

However this is really about :-

“Did I request thee, Maker, from my clay / To mould me Man, did I solicit thee / From darkness to promote me?”

Adam makes an error and is banished from Paradise, well excuse me God you made me. The creature in Frankenstein did not ask to be made and he is even more angry with his creator. David has only been active seconds, and much like Frankenstein, Weyland has an instant but different reaction he sees a danger. 

So in an intelligent creation is there a danger that those whom are "Manufactured" and for a purpose might broadly speaking operate in the same area and deal with the same dilemma. 

What strikes me about the Moon is there is a good deal of self expression going on (The Fresco's, The Mural)  and given it has been left unattended for 2,000 years no one else is interested. At an authorial level I took that to mean they wished to express themselves through sub creation and the ultimate expression of that, the creatures in the Mural, is a living entity capable of procreation based on the Riff at the end. These guys on the Moon had created us who were capable of self sustaining life and the deacon race who could achieve the same, but in their eyes better. So life is created which is self sustaining (Not an accidental parasite) and would not ask consent of its parents but the reality in the story is none of this has consent.

So what does have consent in an intelligent creation and why?

How do you create, without love, and rub along amicably.

We know mankind creates across a range of emotional reasons and we do not rub along amicably.

So what would a universe look like where the issue of consent did not create a problem between the origin creators and the created, because its not relevant. Our proxy's for looking at this are David and Elizabeth. 

As for "is creation violent?" I develop that theme out of the idea Ridley offered they are aggressive f.....

In my vision, you receive various forms of sexual knowledge in the first movement. Vickers/Janek, Charlie/Elizabeth and a nasty three way exposé which includes the creature.

In the second movement its all about the revelation of creative knowledge how it has been applied why it went wrong (on the Moon) and how Elizabeth reacts to it.  

All the examples of creative knowledge are pursued in a profoundly aggressive manner driven by a desire for self expression.

However the most interesting example is back in the first movement where there is a confluence of creative and sexual knowledge where Elizabeth gives birth to a horribly deformed child which merges the two elements. In that instance the child immediately wants to destroy the parent. Is that a comment on creation out of chaos or the paranoid world view that all children want to destroy their parents (which actually isn't correct).     

David and Elizabeth (Bigdave)

In a universe where creation has gone astray and we have a barren woman and a brilliant android incapable of finding meaning in a creative sense, you can pervert the rules of creation and make them a new Adam and Eve but that seems to me to be to easy and merely the inverse of the Covenant narrative where the android stole her non performing reproductive organs and made the creature out of this and other ingredients to get more bums on seats.

All I will say say is one reader said the outcome for them was incredibly sad and another a wonderful vision of the future. In other words their journey is bound up with so many elements that it depends on the reader as to whether what happens to them is profoundly sad profoundly encouraging or even both.

If one believes in nothing at all then reading the books has no point at all because it isn't about nothing at all its about something. Put simply when you have a very broad scope the responses tell you more about the reader than whats read. To elaborate on this.     

If people do not like science fiction thats fine.

If people want endless rehashes of A L I E N and A L I E N S tropes thats fine. 

If people are profoundly "religious" and find you tinkering with God, Christ and creation and find that blasphemous thats fine. 

If people are certain that Darwin was 100% right thats fine. 

However if you want to take human nature, the big questions and offer to explain why we are the way we are and its neither Machines or Abrahamic Gods but essentially about what is morality ? Then you might be curious.

Put simply Prometheus the Movie is a morality tale about hubris on every single level from Fifield right up to the Dark Angel so what I found profoundly amusing and fascinating is how we react to this story.

You could argue Sir Ridley was also guilty of hubris but its quite clear he knew the risks he was taking and to be fair he nearly pulled it off, its the top grossing movie of the franchise it doesn't belong in, say some, the perfect hubristic comment on Monster Love.

Nice.

The felidae family

Certainly with the Engineers Advanced Genetic Engineering, and the Black Goo they could Create a kind of Hunting like Animal and so they could Combine the Best Traits of a Predatory Beast with a Touch of Black Goo.

If we look at what the Hammerpedes were as far as just Worms, and how Horrific the Neomorph is compared to a Human.

Can you imagine this done to a Tiger?

Okay next is the Ichthyosaurs 

"My thoughts: Prometheus should have been a sequel of Alien. Not a prequel. This would avoid confusion in multiple planets, signals and derelicts"

To a degree i think YES!

The Prequel with Alien Engineers did seem to indicate (but there was Conflicts) that the Events of that Movie Idea are what led to the Derelict, and so IF it was not for Dr Watts (Shaw) and Holloway and the Mission to that System in search of our Creators... then it seemed to indicate the Derelict would NOT have crashed on LV-426, it would have been Stuck in its Hanger with the Pilot in Cryo-Sleep.

So that Prequel would have also made the Derelict and Eggs as something that has NOT been there for Thousands of Years!

So Prometheus was a Smarter Move.... keeping it a Mystery but seemed to draw us to the Derelict being a Ancient Event...

But then we got Alien Covenant!

There were other ways to introduce the Xenomorph for a Fan Service, and Indicate what happened to the Derelict without having to set those Events as something Chronologically leading to ALIEN...

I think in HINDSIGHT.... they should have given the Fanboys a LV-223 based Prometheus Sequel called Epimetheus were they Investigate the Disappearance of the Prometheus, and uncover a Ship or Outpost with Eggs that contain a Variant of the Xenomorph.  That either reveals the Engineers had obtained Eggs from LV-426 or they had Created Variants of Eggs on LV-223.

They could have then gone and been FREE to make another Prometheus Sequel that would NOT have to Tie in to ALIEN and have the Freedom to Follow the Plans that Ridley Scott had intended prior to 2015

@Leto

I may have caused some confusion, i was not intending to be looking at Literally from the Movie Standpoint so i should have been a bit more clearer ;)

I understand that Prometheus was not Conceived back in 1979, so my purpose was to Wonder what would the Company had known and hidden by the Time we get to 2122, considering events of the Prequels.

So when looking at....

1) I think there have been some Good Answers, it was likely Dr Shaw used the Life-Boat as a Relay, and who knows how long it would take to Reach Earth, (2 Years?), and indeed the Prometheus was a Classified Mission only a Limited Number would be aware of it, and so those who are LEFT behind that are High Ranking in the Company may have NO Concerns to the Fate of the Prometheus, Weyland or Vickers as their Disappearance could PLAY to their Advantage.

I think SM makes a Great Point, we dont know HOW the Dust Storms may Effect any Communications from LV-223, we dont know also if the Transmitter becomes Damaged at some point and so WHEN and IF it stops Transmitting.

2) Partially covered above, i would suspect (but until we get a Sequel its not Conclusive) that in Light of Davids Message that the Company would Investigate LV-223 prior to ALIEN in 2122, if we also continue with the David as the Creator Plot, then i would suspect the Derelict would be either HEADING towards or LEAVING LV-223 before the Space Jockeys Fate Unfolds.

"3) a) "If the Derelict Signal had been Transmitted prior to 2094 then WHY had we not seen signs of the Prometheus being aware of this"

See point 1 - b."

I dont see the Relevance of how LV-426 changed to LV-223 had on the Plot, i think this was just a change to make the Derelict have Crashed on a near by Moon to where the Engineers had their Outpost/Experiments, rather than as the same Planet so i think as far as Alien Engineers Canon, then LV-426 would only be the Place that the Derelict would Eventually End Up on.

But as far as (3) it depends on the Plot Direction, as of Prometheus and Prior then we would have to Assume it was Likely the Signal had been Transmitting for a Long Time, likely it was not a Strong Signal, and so only being within the Vicinity would give a Clearer Indication.  The Weyland Viral Site and DVD Extras from Prometheus Era may NO-LONGER apply as Evidence.

IF we assume the Derelict was there prior to 2094, then maybe David and the Prometheus could have Detected it and their was a Priority to HIDE this from the other Crew which included Vickers and the Pilots/Captain.  And David would have seen getting to Paradise as a Priority.

The Company would then likely had detected the Space Jockey SOS and issued Special Order either as a Result of what David discovered on Paradise or a Company Mission to LV-223.

IF they instead stick with the David Creator Plot, then it could likely be that as of 2094 there is NO crashed Derelict on LV-426, and this Event would happen at some point between 2105-2122 and so the Company would Detect this Signal and Issue Special Order 937 in response to what they would do after they receive Davids Advent Message. (likely Investigate LV-223/Planet 4)

(4) I think i have Covered in the above......

So we are Stuck in Limbo really with Alien Covenant because now we are left with it being LIKELY there was NO Derelict on LV-426 prior to 2105 but then UNTIL the Prequels are Concluded there is NO 100% Proof that there was NO Derelict on LV-426 for a Long Long Time.

So its just added a Potential for there to BE or NOT BE any Ship and Eggs on LV-426 prior to Prometheus and UNTIL we get a Conclusion its all up in the AIR!

This all came about as a Consequence of giving us a Direct Prequel route to ALIEN after the events of Prometheus.

A Mistake in my Opinion.

This would be a bit of fun...

Shaw's signal:

AI is probably parsing all deep space messages...doubt very much a human is listening to these signals? The message isn't about incoming cargo or docking requests...so maybe the AI has orders to forward such messages to : Peter Weyland.

Example of an ancient ruined building which is barely recognizable.

Shaw would've transmitted her message from her suit via the lifeboat's transmitter.  Silica storms muck around with the comms.  Years of silica storms would likely wreck the transmitter eventually.

These beasts may start their own metamorphosis.

Warcats, maybe?

Felidaes are good hunters. You can run, but you can not hide.

Perhaps not this one...

...but this one.

There must be some sort of reason why xenomorphs do not like felidaes.

Wardogs  "Cave Canem"

War dogs were used by the Egyptians, Greeks, Persians, Sarmatians, Baganda, Alans, Slavs, Britons, and the Romans. The Molossus dog of the Molossia region of Epirus was the strongest known to the Romans, and was specifically trained for battle. Among the Greeks and Romans, dogs served most often as sentries or patrols, though they were sometimes taken into battle.

This is an introverted dog. Freundlich oder feindlich?

Engineers' dogs may have a slightly different look.

Infected Mushroom - Kazabubu (Link)

1) a) Alien was filmed before Prometheus. Even before Prometheus appeared in the plans.

b) Even in early Prometheus LV-223 was called as LV-426.

2) We do not know where and on which device Shaw left a warning. But we can assume that it was a human device. But it turned out to be weak, so no one noticed Shaw's signal.

3) a) "If the Derelict Signal had been Transmitted prior to 2094 then WHY had we not seen signs of the Prometheus being aware of this"

See point 1 - b.

b) "and WHY had it not been Investigated between 2094 and 2105 (or had it?)."

Well, as we know, excluding extras, Prometheus mission was a secret. Maybe no one in the company knew about signal and LV-223/Lv-426 after Weyland left.

4) a) See point 2.

b) Derelict's signals may also have a limited transmission area. Covenant ship could detect Platent-4 Derelict's signal only when it was nearby.

My thoughts: Prometheus should have been a sequel of Alien. Not a prequel. This would avoid confusion in multiple planets, signals and derelicts.

@NTFS

Certainly would be Interesting if during the Landing they Detect a Ancient Ruined Building.

All we can do is SPECULATE about Origae-6 and the ONLY way we would ever get to see this Place is depending IF we get a Continuation and then its a case of WHY/WHEN would David go to Origae-6 and IF he does-not then WHEN/WHY would the Company go to Origae-6

I think Consent and Love are very Interesting to Ponder.

In Context to the Apparent Creation of Mankind, a lot depends on the Path.... we can only Speculate about HOW LONG it would be after the Sacrificial Scene before we arrive at Cave Men on Earth, and how many Artificial Evolution's on the way to this had Happened.

Depending on what we look at we could Arrive at a different Conclusion, but we have to maybe try and NOT consider any Deleted Material. 

We could Speculate about the Consent of the Engineer, was he really so WILLING?  The Theatrical Cut shows us he seemed like he had a Sense of Purpose i never got a Sense of him being Concerned or Fearful, do we assume that he Fully was Aware of what would become of him?  Surely he would know about his Races Procedures and Rituals which RS seemed to indicate that he would have.

Certainly Mankind did-not Consent to our Creation, but then with a lot of Creation, the Creator does not ask its Creation for Consent.   Regarding Love then indeed Human Creation does sometimes come from Love, but sometimes its purely a Consequence of Lust.

So when such a Creation comes from NOT so Love in that way, even Totally as NOT from Love such as Rape, that does-not mean that the Creation would be UNLOVED.

I dont mean for this to be OFF-TOPIC.. i think it kind of is ON-TOPIC, as far as HOW would such things be Covered by Michelle's work.

So by that its like IF we was Created because the Engineers Could and there was NO LOVE, would that apply to the Effort spent in Visiting us and Teaching us, was there Care and Compassion for us in this? or was this something (Visits/Teachings) that was done purely for some other GAIN and not for our Benefit?

I think looking at the Xenomorph and the like is Interesting too as there is 100% No Love or Compassion Involved it is Primal, Survival.

This does-not rule out that some Consent is involved if we cover that some CHOOSE to Self-Sacrifice themselves to allow for such Horrors to Exist, however you would Consider that Most would not be Consenting to this, unless they was Part of some Ritualistic Cult.

I think another Interesting take would be how Michelle you would tackle the Relationship between David and Dr Shaw, would a Robot be Capable of more than Platonic Love for Dr Shaw and how would she React?  Would she Reciprocate that or Reject it?

Which ever way she would React... how would this Effect David?

Then we have the Situation that David and Dr Shaw can-not create Life together... not in the Traditional/Natural Sense.  Would David be trying to look at HOW he could HELP her to become a Mother? She could NOT conceive a Child... only a Horror from the Pathogen, but this at least Proved that this Pathogen Presented a Way for her to Create a None Human Fetus.

Could David be thinking of if there was way she could Conceive a Normal Fetus, would he Help her?

So yeah there are many Interesting things to Ponder, which if some or all are Covered by you Work Michelle i think it would be Interesting to see how you tackle those.

Good Luck with your Project ;)

Hopefully i never came across as Harsh or too Opinionated in my Previous Post, i apologize i had done.

I think the David as a Creator makes Sense on One Hand as it Fits the Themes at Play, but it Totally Removes everything that was ALIEN about the Xenomorph and having David create something a little Different would have FITTED with the Reasons for having him Apparently being the Creator, so having him as the Creator was Unnecessary.

There are more Problems than just that, in regards to what effected the route we are going, it seems that the HR Giger Estate was not a Fan of using a lot of HR Giger Aesthetic and so that was Toned Down even Further...

There was NOTHING that stood out as Bio-Mechanical as in the HR Giger Aesthetic in Prometheus, the Horrors from the Black Goo were more Organic, the Ship being more Synthetic/Mechanical.

Likewise with Alien Covenant we only really had the Juggernaught and Docking Scorpion like Ship that had a loose HR Giger Aesthetic, the Organisms we saw lacked that HR Giger Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic that the Classic Xenomorph and Sill from Species had.

So when you look at the Xenomorph in Alien Covenant in part it looks like a Work in Progress... which Ridley Scott had referred to it as...

If we DONT want it to be that route, then its a case of do we just go to LV-426 and show there are Eggs that have been there for Thousands of Years (How do you Prove the Date).  And then what of David and his Xenomorph and what went down on Planet 4?  We just Ignore that?

We could Speculate that David just tried to make a Knock Off and Failed and Decided to go and Mix the Xenomorph and Neomorph and pass it off as the Fruits of his Labor?

In Hindsight had FOX not considered some Complaints about Prometheus, and Stood by what Ridley Scott had intended then we would NOT have been in this MESS.

They simply could have given Fans Xenomorphs in a Different way i could think of a Number of Ways to go and give Direct Clues and Answers that would NEVER had lead to Alien Covenant.

Alien Covenant in Part Happened because of HOW do you do a Sequel to Prometheus and Introduce the Xenomorph and then THROW in Human Characters... that would also have to be about where David and Dr Shaw go!

Maybe all we can do now is try and think of some kind of Damage Limitation rather than to Ignore what we seen so far.

There could be some LIGHT in all of this, if they decide to go for the Xenomorph being the Source of the GOO, but then the Goo is something else that makes little Sense, unless they go to show us the Sacrificial Scene is NOT the way they Create Life at all.  Well i think that depends on Interpretation of the GOO.

I do have a FanBoys Pleasing Explanation that would Conflict the Sacrificial Scene leading to Mankind. I think some Fans would actually like that though if it RULED out the Engineers Created us.

I think what it ULTIMATELY comes down too is Fans think they know what is BEST but forget they dont really have 100% Control over what Direction they take the Franchise, sometimes they can Voice Frustration and FOX then Listen which is WHY we got Alien Covenant and its a case of BE CAREFUL what you wish for.....

But absolutely the David as the Creator Arc is surely a Unnecessary Move, ONE they should have Surely Considered would UPSET Fans...

But there would be NO WAY to please Fans anyway, IF the Sequel to Prometheus had NEVER given us the Answers or Xenomorphs then some would have NOT been happy... if it showed that a Queen was the Origins of the Xenomorph then NOT everyone would have been Happy.

Dr Shaw seems to sum it up the BEST..  "its what i choose to believe"

Then we are left with this quote "the trick is not minding that it hurts" but a Majority do mind that it Hurts.

We can offer some Explanations that David cant be Trusted or that Dr Shaw and Holloway are completely Incorrect and that in REALITY he (David) just found a Xenomorph Egg and Messed about with it, and our Space Jockey is Cyril Sneer from the Raccoons..

Sadly we have to Accept what we see, and then it can be Changed as long as it considers what we see before.

The Mural and Frescos dont show me a Xenomorph, but they are Ambiguous that anyone can make anything out of them, what it seems to show is that they had done Experiments on something that had lead to that Mural Deacon, and that the Black Goo seems to pass on Traits of this Organism that is Connected to the Xenomorph but there is NO evidence of HOW this is Connected, as far as what Process, which came First Etc.

There are Discrepancies to make its seem UNLIKELY that David could have Created the Xenomorph and these as far as On Screen are that the Derelict looked like it had been on LV-426 for Vastly Longer than 17 Years.

Davids creation also looks Aesthetically Different, but the same Argument is raised in the Differences between the Derelict/Juggernaught and Engineers/Space Jockey...    so Differences that could be just a OVERSIGHT... where we maybe have to either NOT MIND that it Hurts... or just CHOOSE to Believe what we want.

For the Record i think we are in a Pickle and the Move they with Alien Covenant was a Mistake!

But there are a Few things that we could use to Question the Integrity of what David had done, but then thats OK as long as we give a Good Explanation to what he had actually achieved... and WHY?

I think we could come up with some Explanations... but then maybe need to Respect what we saw in Alien Covenant and so i think to have David just discover a Live Egg or a Few Live Eggs and offer no other Explanations would be LAZY way out....

So i think we need to discover Davids Notes or hear it from him, that he had Discovered something that lead to his Creation that came from the Original Xenomorphs and have him indicate WHY he would bother with the other Experiments if he had already Discovered the Xenomorph Eggs that are in Perfect Condition.

Looking at the Movie i seem to think its Pushing us towards that David had either Began this Creation or he had Re-Engineered it but then from WHAT? as the Clues to me seem to point to using the Neomorph and Black Goo to then Cross-Breed Various Organisms...

For me it does-not ALONE conclude that those Eggs on the Derelict had Originated from David's Experiments, the Biggest Issue is that the Derelict looks like its been on LV-426 for a LONG LONG Time.

But if we dont pay Attention to Detail, then its a bit more Ambigious regarding Davids Experiments, it all comes down to the Production just NOT considering the other Movies and sticking stuff in because it looks COOL!

But i Understand this should NOT become another David did-not create the Xenomorph posts but more of WHAT can we do to Carry On and show that he could NOT have created or played a Roll in those Eggs on LV-426.

ULTIMATELY... it should have been Left a Mystery and NOT gone any route to show us Classic Xenomorphs or Indicate their Origins.

BigDave

If we go only by what we see in the film, we know that doctors Holloway and Shaw found identical star maps and a giant pointing towards a constellation.

Shaw chooses to believe it's an invitation and that the extraterrestrials created us. David has studied their "thesis" but what this contains we don't get to know.

So, in order to find the answer to why she believes they created us, we need to go beyond the movie . . .

A bit off-topic so, yes, there are many ways to make David not the creator of the xenomorph (Gavin has given a couple).

As for myself, I like the angle that David is delusional (one note is off). We see signs everywhere that this creature has been around for ages. I like to think that he isn't even close to the real xenomorph - the Deacon (on the mural) . . .

Regarding the Face Huggers, i think it would have been UNLIKELY that Ridley Scott would have gone the Camerons Queen, in that ONE or more of those Face Huggers would Produce a Queen Xenomorph. I think IF we did see much about those Face Huggers then it could be that RS would maybe have explored ALTERNATIVE forms of Procreation and so maybe that could be the Egg Morph?  Who knows.

We cant rule out that David could NOT go back to the Surface for some Black Goo, that would not be a Problem for him, Depending on HOW SURE he is that Walter is Completely Incapacitated...   maybe David could have Grabbed some Black Goo after his Conflict with Walter?

In Context to this Topic though, its about HOW can we go a route to Disprove that David could NOT have created those Eggs on the Derelict.

The its a case of maybe doing it in a way that DOES-NOT really Contradict what we have seen in Alien Covenant.

There are Differences with Davids Xenomorph that we could maybe look at...

The Chest Buster Stage is Different, and also the Gestation seems to be more Quicker.

To me the differences INDICATE maybe TWO reasons for the differences.

1) We are seeing a Re-engineering of the Classic Xenomorph that has taken some Neomorph Traits on, for example Faster Gestation and Fully Formed Chest Buster, that Mimics the Adult Form.

2) Something that had not YET been Evolved to what we have in ALIEN, so we have yet to see HOW the more Synthetic/Less Organic Aesthetic comes into PLAY.

And so i think the Best Solution has to be either as..

1) Where we get some Clues to David obtaining a Xenomorph to Re-Engineer which i just cant see the Engineers being Foolish Enough to Keep Such a Deadly Organism in some kind of ZOO... but maybe a somewhat Desiccated One in a Museum that he could EXTRACT DNA from could be a way to GO!

So that the Derelict Eggs are KEPT as Ancient and after the Company does-not Manage to Obtain the more Evolved Version of Davids, they realize that IF he could Re-Engineer it from a Classic Xenomorph Egg, and IF there are Thousands on LV-426 then they could attempt to Obtain these and Re-Engineer them too.

2) The Engineers or beings above them will Return to see David and HOW much Superior he is to Planet 4 Engineers and Humans, and he is NOT Organic.... and they also see how his Xenomorph is more Superior to the Experiments conducted on LV-223 and Horrors that Created.

So these Beings/Engineers see Great Potential and they make a Amalgamation of David/Walter and his Xenomorph to then get us to the Eggs on the Derelict.

So what we have then is either that David eventually reaches his Z by Experiments that Involved the Engineers A and his Experiments with other Life to make a Hybrid.

Or that the Engineers/Other beings take Davids work which is J-K which he had used the Engineers A-I to then Evolve this Process R-Z thus making David the Middle Man only.

We could have other Solutions that would appease the Fan Boys that would then Contradict or Trash what the Prequels set out..... such as a Discovery in the Depths of the Cathedral of a Egg Laying Xenomorph Queen... which then we would ask... WHY would David go through so much Effort?

'2000 colonists and the Space Jockey carrying the thousands of eggs'

Yeah...I'm wondering what David will do with only two facehugger embryos? (One is a queen? can't believe RS would do that. ) If he'd also vomited up an ampule of Goo.....then I'd feel better about him replicating eggs...as it is now, he's probably going to have to find another Goo source?

'I would say this would be a Plausible way to Introduce that he had OBTAINED a Egg without Contradictions or Complications.'

I like that idea. start Covenant 2 with Walter's rescue and have him fill in the planet 4 details and what he's learned?

Opening shot:

Walter (sitting) playing a flute in the plaza...he Looks up to see a vessel landing(space marines)

Spend a bit of time explaining the situation, maybe tour of the city/spooky underground burial chambers...etc........till an alien(Engineers?) probe shows up and scans them....Marines shoot it down. Walter suggests they hasten their departure.

"How did Shaw know or suspect this beforehand by the way"

it would be their Assumptions based of the more than Coincidental Archeological Discovers, that when they discover the Clues Lead to a Star System where they discover a Organism who Share our DNA, then they believe this has PROVED their Thesis as Correct.

But there is NOTHING that is 100% to show they are Correct, as you could throw in a Curve-ball that Mankind had Created the Engineers the Sacrificial Scene then a Curve-ball these Sub-Creations use the Black Goo to NOT seed their DNA but to Seed the Pathogen on Worlds.

Because its not CONCRETE from the Movies and so the above could be ADDED that would NOT really Contradict what we are shown in the Prequels.  Things can be CHANGED and any contradictions could be ignored as OVERSIGHT.

But the indication (until Change) is that Dr Shaw and Holloway had discovered our Creators.

Regarding the Changes to show that David could NOT have created the Xenomorph they could go that route, and dispute clues to suggest otherwise... they could put Davids Notes and Clues to what he was doing as just OVERSIGHT.

But you could change it AGAIN.... but you maybe have to then (or NOT) show us WHY by Coincidence that David has something VERY Similar!

So maybe you have to give a GOOD REASON for WHY would David have something so Similar! Unless you just use the LAZY excuse of Oversight!

Ridley Scott said the Cathedral is where the Engineers would STORE their Knowledge and so likely History too.

This BUILDING is Extremely Large and so if it is a Place to Store Knowledge and maybe History then what do we have like that on Earth?

A Library?  YES!

But also Museums so maybe this could give us a way to have them Store some Long Dead, Mummified Organisms? 

As i would find it VERY Stupid for them to STORE a Deadly Egg in the City, let alone this Building, but maybe a Petrified, Desiccated one for SHOW like  Museum piece would sound Plausible?

Then it could be Revealed that David had Re-Engineered this (use the Goo to extract DNA) to then Merge with the Neomorph and other Experiments... thus Creating a Hybrid.

I would say this would be a Plausible way to Introduce that he had OBTAINED a Egg without Contradictions or Complications.

I think the whole Subject such as I think the whole Subject such as WHO did or did NOT create the Xenomorph the same as WHO the Space Jockey is/was..... really just comes down to Dr Shaws Qoute "its what i choose to believe"

I think when looking at those Questions we have the Following to Consider.

*Original Idea/Concept.... which is something that has Changed/Evolved and so is NO LONGER a Valid Point but something that they could TURN BACK too.

*Bonus Material/Virals... again as things CHANGE these can be removed from being Canon.

*Drafts of the Movies....  again things CHANGE from the Draft too the Shooting of a Movie.

*Deleted/Extended Scenes.... these again can be removed for Various Reasons and their Content sometimes should NOT be considered Definite Evidence.

*Production/Cast Comments... these Tend to be more Accurate only as far as Present at the Time they was made, and so things can CHANGE that would NOT support earlier comments or Plans by Directors etc.

So its ONLY really the Theatrical Movies that remain the SOLID FORM of Clues, but also Sequels can Contradict some Elements of earlier Movies, but these Changes should be Considered the CURRENT Canon and Clues.

For me looking at this then i get the Impression that David is the CREATOR of the Xenomorph even though that may BUG the Fans...

But we have had NO SPOON FED and Water Tight Case, and there are Contradictions but these could all be just OVERSIGHT....

Ultimately until we see those Eggs get on the Derelict and we are shown CONCRETE Proof that these Eggs originate from David then there is always room for CHANGE.

IMO we don't have any hard evidence so far that David or the Engineers created the xenomorph. We can go that route, but all the other options are open. At some point I said that we can draw a parallel between the Covenat carrying the 2000 colonists and the Space Jockey carrying the thousands of eggs in a sense that the Space Jockey race was hired by the xenomorph race to spread their seeds into the Universe. Or to find a new home for them, like the colonists from Earth did in Alien Covenant. We can still say that the Space Jockey race and the Enginners race are different. It will all depend on the producers.

Daniels or Tennessee could possibly go by the by, in the same way that Dr. Shaw was virtually rubbed out of Covenant. But a direct follow-on to Covenant would surely require the presence of David.

Fassbender has high regard for Ridley Scott, and I'm sure he'd jump at the chance to play David again. As Big Dave says, he probably has time to squeeze in a movie or two. I certainly hope so.

@Michelle, I liked him very much in the oddball movie 'Frank'. Utterly bonkers but enjoyable. 'The Snowman', on the other hand, was a recent and terribly conceived movie of his.

In terms of what we'll see next (and it's surely a matter of when, not if) it would only be a guessing game :(

Planet 4

So... do we think The Engineers hid their planet with technology? And with the Engineers dead,  the tech has failed(or David switched it off)...A nice juicy green Earth type just shows up on their latest search!("..wasn't there last year..").....W Y might have a colony ship or a probe on the way already. 

LV-426

"...ghost-holograph recording depicting the Space Jockeys fate."

Yes! That would be cool.

But I'd probably leave LV-426 alone....Unless it's the source of Chemical A0-3959X.91 – 15.

@ BigDave,

In the OP I wanted to keep each suggestion vague so as to gauge peoples interpretations rather than bombard people with my own. But now that you have offered yours I will do so in kind...

LV-426

I would actually advise against returning there, as I view it akin to a well that has been mined too many times. Instead I imagine LV-426 could be mentioned in a flashback or memory whereby we again see David on the Prometheus en-route to LV-223 and a display showing LV-223 and LV-426, with some sort of identifier symbolizing the signal being sent from there.

Planet 4

There are actually a few ways in which Davids deception could be made apparent using Planet 4. One way would be the discovery of the remains of Engineer transcripts that David has attempted to burn and destroy that clearly show he copied their work. Another way would be to discover an egg hidden somewhere in the Engineer city, and another way would be to discover some Engineer mural or pictograph showing the Alien.

David

David revealing his deception could be the entire point of the deception. In the advent message, David boasted to Weyland-Yutani that he had created the perfect organism and that he would unleash it upon them. The intended result would be for Weyland-Yutani to track down David and either destroy him or take from him what he has claimed to create, leading Weyland-Yutani on a wild goose chase away from LV-426 where the real, original threat lies. But with Alien it would appear, should this avenue be pursued narratively, that Davids ruse did not work and that Weyland-Yutani learned of what was on LV-426.

Space Jockey

We could see, as I laid out in the OP how the derelict came to be on LV-426, or we could see a ghost-holograph recording depicting the Space Jockeys fate. Another way would be to show how the Space Jockey came to have eggs in its lower decks, which could be revealed to have come about in a way not yet postulated.

@ Monster Zero,

I like to think of the Alien franchise in three parts, Alien, Aliens and its sequels/crossovers which focused on the Queen, and the prequels that focused on the Engineers.

Additionally, there is no on-screen evidence that Ann and Russ Jorden discovered the "bug" Aliens from the same location (the egg silo) that Kane discovered, and it could be that they discovered a separate cache of eggs which had been modified to include a Queen, while the eggs in the silo could be an unmodified variant of the Alien.

As for the black goo could be the franchises savior, if used in the right way.

Michelle

That’s very kind of you. Looking forward to it!

About consent. Has anyone agreed to be born? Can we be sure that most people have been born out of love? Of course, the consent could refer to sexual agreement and the facehugging equal to rape. Furthermore, the birth of a xenomorph (through hosting) is violent, but not too dissimilar to human births, is it? Pain and violence is part of creation?

Anyway, “The Seven Worlds” is beautifully done.

BigDave

ALIEN (The Prequel) was actually very funny. :D

Well, it's mankind's longest journey so far in space and we end up finding extraterrestrials looking just like us. Furthermore, they created us.

How did Shaw know or suspect this beforehand by the way (that they engineered us)?

 "Alien was synonymous with Lovecraftian terror"

To me...That went out the window with ALIENS.   That movie made it painfully obvious Xenomorphs are space bugs, hatched like ordinary insects.

Far as I'm concerned David(humanity) creating a special space bug really doesn't bother me. Man creating Chemical/biological/nuclear warfare is much worse. (I'll take on a xeno before I step into a room filled with blister agent.)

Black goo is still very cosmic horror IMHO and I'd like to know where it comes from.