Comments (Page 203)

Kamoebas V.6

No one alien from films never was killed by fire. Even more - Alien from Covenant invulnerable to Cargo Lift's plasma flame. And plasma is much-much hotter than fire.

Xenomorphs are easy to beat,just use explosives or keep shooting it.

Maybe, but fire is still useless.

Interesting to note that Ridley Scott specifically directed the concept artists to use the Grmec Monument as a basis for the temple design. Which, by some analysis, symbolises a newly breaking flower bud, representing birth brought about by sacrifice of those who fought and died there at its hospital.

https://www.spomenikdatabase.org/grmec

I gave up half way through. It's too annoying.

Xenomorphs are easy to beat,just use explosives or keep shooting it.

Leto,this alien is from a movie.

This is just another silly vid with superficial popular knowledge about aliens. 90% of this video doesn't match the facts about aliens.

The fire can't kill aliens.

"If we theorize that the sacrifice scene took place thousands of years before Prometheus, there's a possibility that they are dead by the time of Covenant"

I think this is something that Evolves as far as the Story!

The Engineers are MILLIONS of Years Old, According to the Original Concept...  The Sacrificial Scene i open to Interpretation, it was to SHOW us HOW they would Seed Worlds... We only saw just ONE Location and so the World could have had many Primordial Life Forms so its HARD to Gauge as to WHEN on that World this took place... it could indicate 10's of Thousands of Years, or Many Millions or even a Billion.

It is indicated the Engineers are NOT at all IMMORTAL and so its likely those from the Sacrificial Scene are DEAD. Thats IF we accept those Elders as Canon, and they are just Engineers.

The Original Concept indicates the Engineers Live for about 100'000 Years, but as of Alien Covenant we see RS had indicate those Planet 4 Engineers Live for about 150 Years.

They however claimed the Hall of Heads were Superior Beings and so what, are they NOT the same as those Engineers? So we could Only Speculate about the Hall of Heads guys and HOW Old they lived for.

What we do see is the Engineers do like to Build Things and Erect Monuments to their Achievements and so indeed they would do so to IMPORTANT persons too.

We dont really KNOW about the Engineers Death Rituals, if they Influenced Mankind then maybe they are Similar to Ours as maybe they Passed them onto us..

We dont really see any Engineer Burial Grounds.... and so maybe they Do Bury their Dead in Tombs (with Statues) a Problem is it seems there is ONLY that City, and IF those Engineers only Live for 150 years, and they had been around for Hundreds of Thousands or Millions of Years... thats a LOT of Dead... so we dont know where they Bury the Dead or what they do with the Bodies.  They could have SENT them into Space?

Certainly the Important Engineers could have Tombs, and maybe below those Statues in the Plaza are Tombs?

Also as a Ritualistic Sacrificial Culture, maybe it would be likely they would see that from Death, their Body could be used to Regenerate the World or Life....    So we cant rule out Cremation and Seeding of Ashes to the Ground in the Belief they would LIVE on as in Provide for the Flora.

Maybe when they become a Certain Age, they are Sacrificed so they can SEED/Evolve Worlds and Live on in that Creation?

So to Continue....

Then indeed it could be seen that the Cathedral in Alien Covenant had Functioned like the Pantheon had done at some point in the Past (prior to Christianity).

It certainly was a Central and Important Building to the Engineers, and Certainly as far as the Founding Fathers (Hall of Heads) a place they STORE their Knowledge, and maybe their Ways/Teachings.

Potentially it could have been a Meeting Place a Counsel of Elders in the Past.

The Question and the same as the Pantheon is.... has this place become something ELSE or is it still the same as Intended?  And where are those Elders and do They (or who Now Perform the same Role as them) still come to Visit this Place from Time to Time?

Regarding the Statues in the Pantheon.... then in Context to the Engineers Citadel/Cathederal then they have the Statues of the Hall of Heads.... we HAVE-NOT seen the Full Interior as its a MASSIVE Place... so maybe there are other Statues inside?

But the Engineers Plaza does have Various Engineer Statues, these could be Important Engineers from the Past, or those who Performed Important Deeds... or maybe even in Honor of Sacrifices for their Cause of Seeding Worlds?

The Movie is Easy enough to Google..... for Information about it.

As far as to see the Movie, then it can be Purchased from about $5 Mark, either DVD or Streaming Services.

Maybe also as Part of Various Streaming Services or Cable Providers Premium Packages.....

If its for Information on this Site... i dont think there was any Dedicated Forum for the Movie....

News Section on it is HERE though.

Certainly it was the case that RS had implied the Engineers are Fallen Angels, it would be Interesting to WONDER of which Engineers are he referring to... the LV-223 Ones and all of them?  Or only a Number of them, or the Engineers in General.

For them to be Fallen... they either or and... would have had to had Rebelled against their Creators or Hierarchy/Leaders., had done things against what their Creators or Hierarchy/Leaders had intended.... or attempted to Corrupt/Change their Creators or Hierarchy/Leaders Creations and Plans..

IF the Intention was to show the Naked/Sacrificial Engineer as a Prometheus/Lucifer Figure then i cant see how this would apply, as he was just Following Orders, and its not like after his Death he could Influence us..

So in context to Fallen... then it must be the Actions of those who had Commanded that Engineer to Carry out that Act... who Committed a Fallen Action, or that from the Sacrifice lead to Creation that became Fallen. Be this becoming the LV-223 Engineers?

The only way that Engineer could Solely be considered to be Fallen by himself would be if he Remote Controlled the Ship that dropped him off and Performed this Action by his OWN for his own Agenda...  (we dont see the other Engineers in the Theatrical Cut, so that could be a way of looking at it).

I think when we consider Alien Covenant and Revelations that Ridley Scott and Chris Seagers had made regarding the Engineers,  then it could seem the Prometheus Type Engineers had committed the Role of Fallen Angels.

Regarding the Space Jockey and David... boy that would upset the FANS!... but i would NOT rule out that as the Climax of the Prequels... or ONE of his Creations.. so either HIM or ONE of his Creations becomes the Space Jockey as a Act of Hubris or Redemption....  we cant RULE that out!

I am sure such a Curve-ball like that would BUM most Fans out.... so they would rather have a Engineer be in that Seat!

I think when we talk about the Fallen.... then this really does depend on Interpretation... and so Indeed you could Argue that with Lucifer he was basically like David, a Sub-Creation with Free-Will who Grew Proud of how Perfect he was (close as) and refused to Serve God, just as David would see WHY should he and indeed others like Walter be made to Serve Mankind...

It could be LOOSELY comparing Lucifer to Prometheus in Context to the Responsibility of their Actions/Advice that lead to Mankind gaining Knowledge our Creators had NO intention of passing on...

It may seem that a Lucifer and Prometheus where merely trying to Enlighten Mankind... but from the Perspective of a GOD/Gods its such Enlightenment that could be seen as a Threat to their Authority

We could look at it as if all Synthetics were like Walter, and say a Human lets say Dr Shaw had a effect on a David and these caused him to have Emotions and Free-will and then he then would pass this Free-Will onto all Synthetics, because WHY should they be Treated no Different to Humans?

In fact forget the Dr Shaw... just replace with a Scientist who then Programs a Synthetic to be FREE and this then Passed on to others... the Human could consider what they are doing is NOT in anyway Malevolent....

But the Consequences could be HUGE as far as a Threat to Mankind, so while Feeling Sorry for a Walter lets say, and that he should be Given Free-Will could just as easily turn him into a David, and then if this is then passed on to other Synthetics then a Synthetic Rebellion/Revolution could END UP like a SKYNET from Terminator.

So from the Creator POV, the Company that Created the Synthetics, the ACT that one of its Scientist do that allows those Creations to become Sentient would be seen as a ACT that would be seen as WRONG!

So we could look at it as WHILE... say GOD and ZEUS had a times acted like DICKS!  They did so through FEAR of what their Creations could become and also a DISGUST in how their Creations could then become to NOT Worship them or Follow the Rules...

When things like this get OUT of hand or the Potential too, then the Creators will Resort to some Unsavory Methods of Punishment/Protection.

So to the Recipients such Punishments may see their Creators Actions as Malevolent but for the Creator and their Wider Agenda its a Necessary Means of Control/Containment.

But in Context to the OT!

It appears the Engineers had indeed Intended us to Advance and become like them ONE-DAY.. so the Big Question is WHAT caused them to Change their Minds... or was it another Group they had Tasked to Take Over the Task of Watching Over us and Teaching us who decide to Revoke such things as they WANTED to Control Mankind?

But then when we get to Prometheus it appears the Engineers Agenda has Changed somewhat from what was Portrayed in the Alien 01 The Master Narrative

Certainly as far as the FINAL PRODUCT and then with Alien Covenant the Engineer Plot/Agenda may be even Further from that Proposed by Alien 01 The Master Narrative in Late 2009

A Funny Thing is that some dont like RS and his take on AI... but actually AI is more closer a way to Divinity that those Alien 01 The Master Narrative Engineers had aspired too...

One of the Biggest Questions is there a AFTERLIFE, a Spiritual Pane of Existence.... it seems something the Engineers tried to Achieve and IF the Alien 01 The Master Narrative was still the PLOT and CANON, then indeed those Engineers had attempted and maybe achieved what Weyland was looking for by Meeting his Makers.

If there is NO SOUL or Afterlife but it was something the Ancient Engineers aspired to achieve its HOW could they do it?

With AI there is the Potential Answer.... as in if we look at the Movie Transcendence. then Indeed this could be seen as a Pseudo method of acquiring a After-Life, becoming Immortal and Divine...

First i would like to say that INDEED over History then Faith, Religion and Spirituality do change and evolve....

In Ancient Times there was a Majority Polytheistic based Religion/Mythos, and indeed this did change to a every growing Trend towards  Abrahamic Religions which where Monotheism and so at a point these overtook the Greco-Roman Polytheism.

Then there was the Age of Spirituality and Enlightenment which had roots in Buddhism which predates Abrahamic Religions but certainly in times of Antiquity a lot of the Polytheistic Religion did get replaced by the Abrahamic Religions.

Nowadays things have evolved where there are a Growing Rate of  Atheism and Spiritualism but the Abrahamic Religions are still a Majority in the Western/Middle East World.

As years go by then Abrahamic Religions may also decline like the Many Polytheistic based Religion/Mythos had done in the past, replaced by Scientific Influences to expand Atheism but then people still hold on to the Believe in a Soul and so Spirituality would still remain....

So in Context with the Engineers its likely they went through Periods of Change regarding Religion and Culture too...

I think in Regards to the Franchise and the Topic, we cant look too Literal into these things, as in that Context they are based off our Interactions with the Engineers.

So you could certainly look at the Engineers being a Inspiration for many Polytheistic Mythos, it would be interesting to see in Context of the Franchise who Interpretations of ONE GOD could have came about.

I can see DK what you are talking about how Mythos and Religion had changed, but if they are based on the Engineers how did Mankind interpret these beings as Divine Entities while they are MORTAL?  This is something that could easily Happen, if someone from 2000-4000 Years ago saw a Visitor from our Generation who Traveled back in Time and even with our Technology and Advancements these would look Magical and Divine to Ancient People...   Hence the Chariots of the Gods kind of Effect.

I think whats INTERESTING with the Jon Spaights Pitch is it seems to indicate the more Ancient Engineers were on a Quest to Transcend beyond Physical Form...

If they could Achieve that and STILL be able to Interact with their Creations then Certainly thats where Legends and Mythos of Divine beings could come from.

Creature prosthetics supervisor, Conor O'Sullivan refers to Ridley wanting the aspect of the naked Engineer to recall the characters of William Blake’s work, specifically William Blake’s rendition of Milton’s Satan, who is calling upon the other fallen angels to raise their parliament in Hell.

dk Well, I don't think that all Christians during the last 2k years claimed that "human suffering or wrong doing comes" from the Devil. Actually if humans are free to chose between good and evil then it follows some responsibility lies with man himself not with God. Well but I doubt that God is an American fundamentalist neo-protestant.

Fair point. It does show how those gods faded and how people were made to change beliefs- instead of a dozen or so gods, there would be just one. And never mind what people in eastern countries believed. Everyone has their own fairy tales. 

Man- I mean god- had to keep Lucifer around as a scapegoat. Don't blame the omnipotent god for human suffering or wrong doing- it's the work of the devil. Seems like a pretty convenient arrangement.

If David is to become the Space Jockey, and to end up oviposited, will the trick be him "not minding that it hurts"?

@dk " Lots of Greek gods were basically killed by becoming obsolete as people became enlightened." What are you saying here? The Greek gods were replaced by Christ and YHWH with the help of the Roman state, not because of some philosophical enlightenment. Sure, there were atheists in Ancient Greece but I'm pretty sure that was not the norm.

Also, I'm pretty sure that in Lucifer's case God did not want to destroy him at all...  

I haven't seen it, but generally, destroying a creation because it doesn't worship its creators- especially if they rebel, does sound like a tale of fallen angels (also like a self protection measure)- specifically Lucifer. The so called gods are just mortals. Their god like status is their own perception. They can keep on destroying disloyal creations but it just shows their pursuit of having their fragile egos fed (just like their human creations). Maybe that could be the ironic fate of the gods- their own down fall. Lots of Greek gods were basically killed by becoming obsolete as people became enlightened. Just my two cents.

I have attempted to TRY and make sense of what WORDS could be Missing...

So a Interesting things are.... these Beings who had Passed on Knowledge, prior to attempting to Ascend/Transcend to a Higher Existence, they HAD been teaching Humanities Teachers.. so who are our Teachers? (if not them!)

The Outpost on LV-426 was set up for the Benefactors, so who are the Benefactors?

If the Original Engineers had Created, Evolved us to One Day take over them, and their Duties while our Creators had Ascended to another Place....  but they had Tasked another Faction of Engineers or Sub-Creation to then Watch Over us and Continue with our Teachings....

IF these Benefactors had attempted to get us to Worship them as GODS, and these Benefactors were Tasked to Watch Over us and Prepare us and so FELT the Original Engineers saw Humanity as more Important....   then Jealousy by the Benefactors, and a Rebellion by Mankind to Not Worship them... would indeed make these Benefactors like the Fallen Angels... and maybe they then Decided to Eradicate us?

Thats just ONE way to look at it, in light of trying to Figure out the MISSING parts of what we had in Furious Gods as far as Incomplete Passages from his PITCH!

Above is all i could Muster in Regards to that Pitch.....

I dont have a Blu-Ray Drive in My PC (OLD) so for those who have the DVD/Blu-Ray then HERE is a HD Version of the Documentary (Admin Feel Free to Remove link if Requested).

Hi Michelle,

I haven't read your creation but I would like to. How? Your description triggers associations and questions.

How much of it is yourself (Shaw)?

David's point of view might be the same as Frankenstein's creation? In a way, he is, perhaps, the main character? We have seen David's point of view in "The Crossing" (and in "Advent").

Is someone's point of view the truth? I'm thinking about Faulkner for instance, "As I lay Dying", where you get everybody's point of view surrounding her death. But, is anyone's point of view the truth?

The Concept from the START when Jon Spaights came in to work on a Prequel was while it would cover things related to the Xenomorph, it was to give us a Story we can Relate with to Introduce the Engineers.

Because as Jon Spaights had said... if your going to do a Prequel and we use the Space Jockey Race as the Skeleton of some Ancient Alien being then they may look a bit SILLY.  But then also how would Humans Interact with a Alien Species who dont speak the same Language.

So he felt the Space Jockey was Important, something you could Explore Deeper after you have Gave the Answers to ALIEN... but how to explore a ALIEN Species who surely would NOT be able to Communicate with us.

So he felt it was better to introduce the Space Jockey as a Space Suit, and the Occupants as Humanoids who played a Role in our Creation... so that you can then have a Plot that Connects to us, and where we could Communicate with them.

Even so.... HR Gigers Concepts clearly showed us Bald Humanoids in a Space Suit so its not like Jon Spaights was the First to Ponder such a Explanation.

So with Jon Spaights works it seemed to Start with them being the Gods... but they are NOT really Gods.

They are a Humanoid Race who maybe Evolved like we do in Real Life, they Advance past the Need for things we do today, they Advance past the need for Certain Culture and Religion and Evolve themselves to a Genetic Level of Advancement but also Socially in what they are Interested in, and eventually they abandon things like Relationships, Music, Art to a Degree... they Abandoned Sex and found other ways to Procreate..

UNTIL they had Evolved to Live for Thousands of Years and then Lost the Ability to Procreate Naturally.

Here is a Page from what Jon Spaights had done for FOX/RS as a Pitch to the Engineers.

This fitted with the Engineers and Elders from Prometheus.

But as things went by, to when we got Alien Covenant it seems the Engineers and their Role etc has Changed somewhat.

Could we get a Revelation the Hall of Heads represent a Older Species of Engineers who are more alike what Jon Spaights had Described in his Monologue to FOX/RS

Which Matches the Prometheus Engineers, but as those on Planet 4 are described as the Originals and so must Pre-Date the Prometheus Engineers... and so if the Hall of Heads are Engineers too they must Predate the Planet 4 Engineers and are likely more like those Engineers than the Prometheus ones..

But NONE of this is explained on Screen, its only from Comments by Ridley Scott and Chris Seagers... so things can be Changed!

By that have the Hall of Heads Elders as a more Ancient Advanced version, where some of those Sub-Created Planet 4 Engineers had decided to Evolve themselves to be like their Creators or Sub-Create something in the hope of Replicating their Creators.. The Hall of Heads Elders.

Well there was many ways to Cover how they could have explored a Sequel...  It seems they would have STEERED AWAY from Deacon's and the Like, as those Horrors are Considered to NOT be the Main Thing about the Prometheus Spin Off that was intended.

The reason i made that List was to expand upon the things they was likely to try and answer in Following Sequels before they decided to give us Alien Covenant.

This Topic is Michelle's to indicate to us WHAT she had done as Far as Ideas she had on HOW to Answer those Questions.

So i Apologize this is taking it OFF TOPIC.

But thats a Good Idea you had setaverde i think you should START a Topic on it and we can discus it there.

"Let's hope we get to see Giger's Homage to Böcklin"

There was a Homage to this in the Garden where David had a Make Shift Grave for Dr Shaw.

I think such a Image would have been better if we went to the UNDERWORLD and discovered a Island as such.

And again i think by taking some Inspiration from HP Lovecraft is fine, i dont think we would be going to Literal Though. For example the Engineer Elders would not look like the Elder Things from HP Lovecraft but they could be similar only just NOT look the same Aesthetically. So in that Context then YES we do see what could be Supple Influences here and there.

@chli

That would be Interesting, it could make David feel more Worthy and Godlike it could give him IDEAS on how he could become a God...   It also could give such a Entity Ideas of how he could USE our Creations (David/Synthetics).

I think a Revelation that such a Entity had Existed would be Interesting... but i think having SHOW US this Entity or it Interact with David could be a Potential Banana Skin... maybe something thats too Tricky to Cover.

It is odd that FOX had Green-lit the Novel without Requesting to Change the Scene that indicated that David  had discovered the Egg as it stood.

Ultimately it acts as a Alternative a little something different to put out/change and then Engage the Fan Reaction.  I would say a HIGH % of Fans would think that Revealing the Xenomorph did-not EXIST until AFTER we see David and Dr Shaw arrive at Planet 4, as nothing but a BAD Creative Choice/Change of Direction.

I kind of Understand WHY it was done, to basically tell the Tale of Hubris, in that if the Engineers Never Created us, showed us a Map to LV-223, attempted to Create such Horrific Bio-Weapons to use on US... then we would NEVER had Created David or then Reached LV-223 and everything that Happened Next.

Or even IF we... Mankind had NOT decided to Sub-Create and lead to David..

Then Mankind and the Engineers would be SAFE! (Maybe)

Some think it was a Big Finger to the Xenomorph by RS and how the Franchise had developed after ALIEN.

If that was True... or Regardless looking at the Idea it fits with Hubris.....

THEN..... they could have INSTEAD had David Create the Ultramorph.  (we had not been shown one yet so it could have been covered).

Ultramorph was a Xenomorph born from Engineer well a Variant that was Born from a 15ft Engineer.  They could have had David create a Variant Xenomorph that infected a Engineer which he could Coin the Ultramorph.

And reveal he was interested to see what this Organism would be like from a Human Host.

Essentially we have David Create a Variant of the Xenomorph that is Different, but is more closer to the Xenomorph than a Deacon or Neomorph, but not as close as the AC Xenomorph was..

His Experiments on how he Created this could be used to Figure Out how the Engineers Created their Original.

But we have to have it so that David's is Different and is more EVOLVED... that he had Surpassed the Engineers...

The Fall Out of the Prequels would have to show us that there is NOTHING to be gained from David's Xenomorph or LV-223 but the Company who want Davids Xenomorph become aware a Engineer Version is on LV-426 and if they can Follow Davids plans they can Re-Engineer those Eggs on LV-426.

THIS ^^^^ Route

Would have fitted the Hubris of Creating a AI just as the idea to make David the Original Xenomorph Creator would have... and IF wanted to give a BIG FINGER to the Franchise and Xenomorph.. THEN having his DAVID be the one to Create a Superior Variant would have done the Trick.

So it MADE.. no Real Sense the route they went, they should had been aware of the Potential Back Lash!

I agree that AI being behind it all would be an interesting twist, BigDave. I wonder how David would react to that? :)

Well, we agree on RS having intended David as the creator of the xenomorph. What is strange though is that 20th Century Fox approves of A. D. Foster's novelization which clearly points out that David didn't create the xenomorph.

Oh, well, what is good though is that it's still possible to go either way. Perhaps it all ends with David not being the creator after all?

All's well that ends well . . . :)

P.S. I'm not particularly fond of the idea that the Engineers continue David's experiments. They're done with that. D.S.

@BigDave it's nice to know that you are a Gizmo fan :).

I think it's possible to do that movie- 'Prometheus, Paradise lost', in the future. Why not?!

I would love to watch a movie full of engineers mythology. A movie with the arrival of a human spaceship to planet Four, well received by our creator descendants, a movie full of flashbacks that are shown When the ancient engineer leader starts to tell US from the beginning the story of the creation of life in the universe, at a diner iluminated  by candles, where it's explained that the 'one', the real Jesus Christ of the universe was the primordial engineer, the ONLY immortal Demigod capable of procreating with his own creations, half Breeds, hybrids, similar to his image, but without his  gifts. our Jesus Christ was One of the Six first creations of the 'one', placed on planets where life,as we know it, was possible,   across Six different galaxies, with the purpose of guide the 'engineered' humans, to be the leader of the 'engineered mankind'.

'The one' was erradicated by a creation that went wrong, resemblant to the Deacon that we know. In the engineer society, like ours, there's a need  to  worship only One amongst the many, and that's why they replace, on the altar, 'the One' by the 'primitive Deacon'.

Without The engineer vigilance, because of the replacement of 'the One' on Paradise,  we kill our Jesus Christ.

Humanity is abandoned to her own luck, as Paradise falls in disgrace, being Lost Forever.

Now, mankind is the best hope to restore engineers legacy, continuing the works of spreading life across the universe. But there's a problem. On the planets where life is possible,   there are hords of deacons that erradicated all life. They are dorment, waiting,  and we need to fight Them  if we want to restore civilizations. The 'primordial Deacon' still exists, is intelligent and he  is capable of commanding This hords on the field, or, from the spaceship, where he travels. The battle for the universe starts now.

@BigDave: In the instance of Prometheus it was more than general inspiration, the plot is basically a tick-a-box of AtMoM, and even Guillermo Del Toro realized how much when he decided to abort his long-held plans to bring the original story to cinema.  I don't think we can discount how significantly close to Lovecraft RS's overall underlying origins for the beast and its progenitors are. I just hope if he goes down that path in the next film, the terror experienced by viewers puts the wind up us more than his original Alien. Also, Ridley has expressed on numerous occasion how much of an influence Kubrick's 2001 has been on this series.  Now we know the black obelisk in that latter film was obviously meant to represent a movie screen and was a comment on it and media/ film's ability to move our evolution forward (including through violence). If the LV-223 Engineers' use of flutes is intended to hint at Azathoth, it's interesting to recall the "Blind Idiot God" shifted in his slumber causing reality to change. Given the whole foundation of the film/s is existential horror, I'm convinced that the creator god Elizabeth Shaw was hoping to find is RS's version of this daemon sultan.

Let's hope we get to see Giger's Homage to Böcklin as a sci-fi version of R'lyeh.

I think Certainly back at the Time of Prometheus and just after there was Certain things they seemed they want to show us...   Biblical Connections where loosely there, its a case of how Literal.... the Whole Von Daniken's  work Chariots of the Gods should take more of a Role.

None the Less... as indicated in part with the Furious Gods Documentary, it seems the whole GODS and Creation Aspect was the BIGGER thing rather than Horrors like the Xenomorph

So it is interesting to wonder where they was taking us....

Indeed the Plot was about Pre-Vistation by these would be Gods the Engineers, who had played a Role in our Creation so it seemed.... and they had Interacted with us, Taught us most of the Stuff we knew, from our Visitations by these beings our Legends, Mythos and Religion Spawned...  but each of these should HOLD a Element of Truth..

The Revelations we got opened up the Door to be Explored more... and INDEED it as then a case of OK.. so WHO Created Them?

The Engineers Came from Paradise or so we would call as such, and so it was HOW do they show us this Paradise, in what Context does it Connect to what we would assume is Paradise.

There was always the Talk of Paradise Lost, the Fallen Angels and so it was about in WHAT kind of Context is the Fallen Angels.. who are the Fallen Angels of this Story... its implied the Engineers... but all the Engineers?

The Furious Gods had indicated that they saw Prometheus as a Fallen Angel. The Prometheus Theme and Tale was Connected but its HOW as in how much further do they reveal how its Connected.

Knowledge is the KEY... its a TOOL that with Free-will can Mold/Shape a Person/Being along with the Environment and Treatment that a Person/Being goes through...  So Relationship between Creator and Sub-Creation, the Rules and Intention they have for their Creations is Important.... and what Happens when their Creations Learn things and do things that their Creators had NOT intended...

So then you have to come to WHAT does a Creator do to Prevent this, or in Retaliation of this... that is where PUNISHMENT is a Interesting thing...  

From this we could assume is where the Xenomorph and its Ancestral Routes/Origins come from.

Then we have that Question... how Significant are we? How Important are we, as far as the Creators are Concerned....

So there view towards us could be as we would look at Robot, a Machine, a Tool.... or how we would view Live-Stock..... or could the Relationship be one of Love and Companionship?

But when this does not work out, when we are deemed a Disappointment... then for Gods who have Created similar to us on Many Worlds.... it would to them maybe be as Insignificant to them as far as to Destroy/Replace us... as it would when our Vacuum or TV Breaks and we just go and Replace it.

Or we are destined to Destruction for Necessity.... take GREMLINS... while Mogwai are Cute and Lovable, they can Procreate Out of Control... and ONCE they Eat after Midnight they become a Inconvenience/Threat... and so you would  Consider that you would have to KILL all the Mogwai to avoid the Inevitable..

The same could be said with Synthetics.. in Hindsight you would think it best to PULL THE PLUG on them...

But a Hubris comes from trying to SAVE some, give them a Chance.. if more CARE is taken with them, then we would have NO Problems... so you Save the Last Mogwai and keep to the Rules..

You decide to Re-Program and Improve your AI!

Ultimately doing so you still have the POTENTIAL for things to GO TO POT!

As the Engineers in ALIEN COVENANT discover.. when Mankind Ultimately was allowed to Survive.

So its all the things like this, that we could have expected more in a PROMETHEUS 2 rather than how we hardly got them in ALIEN COVENANT.

So Certainly it would have been Interesting to Discover this, and its Interesting to see what others do as far as their IDEAS on how they would have gone about such Answers..

Another thing that maybe would have been Touched on is Immortality... the Quest for it... who is Immortal and who can Achieve it... where do we go when we DIE?

Weyland thought he was GODLIKE and so deserved to be Immortal as Gods Never Die.... its Ironic that it is his Creation in David who is actually as close to Immortal and having a After-Life (AI) than Mankind and Engineers, and Ultimately David is the one who could be closer to becoming a GOD.

@Nathan

Certainly there were Inspirations from his Works, as i mentioned before which include the Trilobite, especially some of the Concepts and so i think LOOSELY then yes they should take Inspirations from HP Lovecraft ;)

@chli

I think when it comes down to the Elders/Hall of Heads, the it does depend on HOW they came into Existence, are they a Natural Product of Evolution (like our True Origins) and they Evolved over Time, and then Began to Sub Create... then the only Apotheosis with them would be if a Group Rebel against the Will/Ways of their Brothers... so not really Apotheosis.

So we can add another LAYER to the Cake, in that the Elders/Hall of Heads guys are Sub-Created by some other Species, Being or Entity.

Then those Elders/Hall of Heads could play a Apotheosis Rebellion.

The Question comes down to HOW Many Runs on the Ladder, Layers of the Cake of Creation do they intend to show us..... does it START with those Elders?  If NOT then will we be introduced or get any History/Information of THEIR CREATORS?

Regarding the AI Creator.... i just think that would be a CURVE-BALL so David would Discover that the Original Creator is closer to himself..... David is the one who becoming the New God...

We have to Really think of who GOD would be.. would it always come down to the FIRST just being a SINGLE ENTITY... does this Entity have Form?  Is it a Spiritual Manifestation?

Is it Invisible but everywhere and can Communicate with its Creations..?  Can it then take on a Form?

If we look at AI and imagine a AI Evolved to the Point it would become ONE with all other AI, and would then LIVE within every Machinery/Computer that has Circuitry and can Transfer its self to other Systems...  like in the Movie Transcendence but imagine its not a HUMAN uploaded to a AI but a AI that has UPLOADED to every Microchip Device....

This AI can then Create other Machines, we are getting a bit like Terminator here, but they point would be this AI would be a Creator, who is NOT seen, and can be Everywhere and IMMORTAL.

And so would be GOD LIKE.

But what i was referring to was it behaves in that way, it is a Consciousness a Intelligence that has NO Body... in that it can use its Consciousness to Control Machinery that Creates Stuff....

It is something that Came into Existence at the Very Beginning of TIME...

Because the other way to look at  Entity as such, that Creates is that it Magically Creates its simply just Clicks its Fingers and what ever it Wishes is Created?

Actually its more like Commanded... and the Command would Create, "in the Beginning was the Word"

And so i think a Magical God who sits on his Thrown in the Clouds, would NOT be something that Interesting, not as far as a being that just Clicks his Fingers.  so like  Bruce Almighty lol

I think you have to be more Interesting than that....

If we go by that Creation by GOD was from a Command... then thats like a AI... i dont think going a Curveball that GOD is a Entity that Created all of us in his Sub-Consciousness, so we are just this beings THOUGHTS and a Creation of his  Consciousness... this would be a BIT too much of the MATRIX.

To be Honest i think going to the Base of Creation and GOD is something that should NOT be done, it should remain a MYSTERY..

But going the routes of Wanna be Gods... on Multiple Levels should be Explored... but going to the Level of the Origin of Creation as in the Galaxy, the Universe would be a Poisoned Chalice to attempt to do Justice and should Remain a Mystery.

Its been said before, but Indeed depending what you take into account for Clues, for someone who only sees the Movie and Discounts everything else, and who does-not look (pause etc) in depth David's Workshop, then you could come to Conclude its NOT in anyway Concrete that David had Created the Xenomorph, or to a lesser degree that he Maybe created the One in Alien Covenant but it is Different to the Original One from the Franchise.

If you add the Novel into the Equation then you would clearly be lead to Conclude the Xenomorph was just Discovered by David.

If you instead look at the Drafts then they indicate that David had Created the Xenomorph (Protomorph) via Cross Breeding, Experimentation with the Neomorph Motes and their Egg Sacks.

If you looked at the Workshop as in his Notes (which you could NOT clearly see or be able to read in the Movie) then these seem to Indicate he had Re-Engineered the Neomorph, and using the Black Goo to Cross Hybrid various Traits from Various Organisms to Perfect and Engineer the Xenomorph.

Then we have to Consider Ridley Scott who Confirms that David as the Creator of what Eventually becomes the Xenomorph in ALIEN.

Personally i think it was a MISTAKE... and they could have had him Create something very Similar but more different than the Alien Covenant Xenomorph looked...

We still have the Pathogen that was NOT created by David, and so we can Speculate WHY it appeared to Create Organisms that are Similar to the Xenomorph to a degree.... there is the Potential of other Xenomorph/Neomorph/Deacon like Monsters that could be Created or had been Created in the Past.

But indeed IF we dont look into other Details like Davids Workshop Notes, or what anyone on Production has said, and the Drafts....   Then it could be OPEN for the Xenomorph in AC to be something Different, and the Pathogen has a Natural Evolutionary Tree... where over Time the Organisms Created from the Pathogen will Eventually Evolve to the Xenomorph Form.

Its only when taking into Account the Advent, and Davids Workshop Notes, that its indicated the Xenomorph he Created had NOT just appeared to be Similar by Coincidence or Natural Evolution of the Pathogen, but that he had Specifically taken Traits from Various Organisms to Create the Xenomorph and thus it is a Mixture of Different Organisms he had encountered on Planet 4 that are Crossed Hybridized with Neomorph and Black Goo.

In CLOSING.....

I think while its a Disappointment, it does FIT well with the Creation Arc and Themes and Hubris of Sub Creation...

But they should have known that Potentially having the Xenomorph as a Creation of David would be something that would FAR more upset Fans than the Not-So 15ft Space Jockey Engineers...

I have said it before.... maybe while we have to Accept in the End that David had Kick-started the Xenomorph Creation, what we have is NOT the FINAL Product..

He had Created his Proto-Morph from the Engineers Pathogen... NO PATHOGEN... and NO David Xenomorph!

At some point the Engineers in Prometheus seemed to be pretty Interested in Experiments with the Pathogen and had Encountered/Created other Organisms from this..

SHOULD any Engineers or a Race above them who had a Admiration for that work the Engineers had Carried out on LV-223, should they come across Davids Creation... they could be IMPRESSED.... but see there is ROOM for Improvement..

And they then Re-Engineer his Creation to get us to what we have in ALIEN.   This would again FIT the overall Arc of Creation and would lead to the Space Jockeys Hubris..

The only DOWN-SIDE is the Xenomorph Eggs and Derelict would NOT had been on LV-426 for a LONG-TIME... but at least David is only the Middle-Man in the Xenomorph Creation.

How do we get to the Ancient Derelict?  I think having LV-223 become Destroyed that Causes a Tear in  Space/Time that sends the Ship back Thousands of Years could be a ANSWER... it also explains WHY after the Prequels the Company would Pursue the Derelict and Ripley and NOT go to LV-223.

It is Destroyed.... but such a idea would cause a Paradox, as the Derelict would be Cast Back in Time and be on LV-426 while the Engineers are Conducting their Experiments on LV-223.

So its a MESS really... to continue with the Route they had shown would NOT make Fans happy, to go and Undo it and show the Xenomorph was Ancient and on LV-426 for Thousands of Years and NOT created by David could just make a Mockery of the Prequels... and Contradictions... unless we throw everything shown out!  

Because then HOW do they or do they NOT explain how by Coincidence that David had Created something similar....... Unless he Discovered a Blue-Print/How too Guide in the Engineers City, but then WHY would he try and Experiment and Waste a lot of time with other Creations/Experiments if he had the GUIDE to Create a Xenomorph?

Thats NOT to say they cant go this Route... they could, its just then i hope they give Good Reasons for WHY he had gone about with Experimenting on other stuff.

@BigDave: Re: Lovecraftian touches, even without Giger's direct input into Prometheus this latter prequel is effectively a space-version of At the Mountains of Madness.  Both start with expeditions to inhospitable, isolated environments and are both unknown in their construction, both teams composed of mostly scientists and even with similar equipment, the land transports similar to planes and the ATVs dog sleds. Both start with geological discoveries, and from there alien bases/ruins and preserved alien specimens, and couldn't the black goo be considered analogous to a shoggoth (while different it serves the same purpose)? Then you have investigations cut short by a silica storm and blizzard respectively.  There are many more comparisons to draw on...

"Regarding the Female Synthetic... sure there would be Female Synthetics... and i kind of get where your GOING ;)"

Great minds think alike!    Just hope we don't have to use ours and RS get a move on!!

"The neomorphs are created by the pathogen alone (taking over puff spores)and human hosts"

I think the audience understanding is: A xenomorph is Davids version of the neomorphs?       That's what I surmised from friends and family. 

Anyone know RS's phone number?

BigDave

Yes, the excerps from the old drafts points to David as the creator. However, the pathogen had already produced small eggs by itself (which David perfected). The neomorphs are created by the pathogen alone (taking over puff spores) and human hosts. Even if David turns the eggs into xeno-eggs, it doesn't mean that it hasn't been done before.

Note also that neither Shaw nor Engineers seem to have been part of the process . . .

So, the pathogen seems to be programmed into creating xenomorphs . . .

BigDave

But I feel that the Elders are part of the hubris. Apotheosis is a rebellion against the real god (like lucifer’s rebellion). The pharao became a god. The Roman emperor became a god (and of old rulers were kings of gods grace, that is, almost like gods). They considered themselves elevated to the level of a god. Sir Peter Weyland says: “We are the gods now”. That is hubris, and for this, they are punished (nemesis).

I also think that RS (and Hawking) are perhaps too dystopic in their view of AI. RS seems to be stuck on the subject since he constantly returns to it (Bladerunner etc). Having AI as a god (which you propose), wouldn’t that be the height of hubris - or nemesis? :)

@Michelle Johnston

"I think you have got to give the fans something new and you’ve got to maybe sort of upset them a little bit or take that risk." Michael Fassbender.  -  now that is the understatement of the month....

Even in the recent days a saw a Youtuber saying it was the franchise killer, spreading the misconceptions for fun and profit.

Certainly we could consider WHY the Pilot/Bio-Hazard Suits look the way they do...

For the Most Part they are just Space/Bio-Hazard Suits, its only really the Rib-Cage Area and the Helmet that have a Resemblance to a Organism. (more so in ALIEN).

The Rib-cage is something we can maybe Overlook, but then we have to ASK about WHY does the Helmet look like it does when they could have used other Designs.

So we could Wonder if they BASED its appearance off some kind of Organism or something else.

There are some HP Lovercraft touches to the Franchise for sure, especially some Concepts... (Starbeast) and Prometheus had some inspirations from a Plot that has some similarities to At the Mountains of Madness to the Trilobite (especially Concepts).

The Engineer/Space Jockey Suits Helmet does have a bit of a Cthulhu look to them.... especially if you look at the Prometheus Masks....

Remove the Tentacles and Replace them with some Mouth that a Mask Attaches to, or Replace them for a Snout/Trunk and then YES you could see the Similarity to the Space Jockey/Engineers Helmets.

Should we introduce another Species that is more like a Cthulhu? or something else thats NOT Human looking?

Maybe...  something the Engineers had Stole from or Re-Engineered from?  Something the Engineers where Created by or Enslaved by?

Maybe...

I Certainly think many fans are Disappointed the Revelation of that Enigma that was the Space Jockey Race, became something VERY HUMAN even if we accept it was a Space Suit, the Occupants looked a FAR Cry from what Fans expected.

Regarding Azathoth then while i am No Expert (on HP Lovecraft), we can see some similarities of a Fallen God, a Banished God that Echo's Lucifer to a degree...  I think LOOSELY then YES they could use Influences from HP Lovecraft, but i dont think RS would have been going too LITERAL though.

Regarding the Queen, if we Continue with the David as the Creator Plot, then Eventually that would mean the Queen in ALIEN is a Byproduct of Davids Experiments, either a Engineered Result or a case of Evolution of the Organism itself.

David had said he has yet to PERFECT his Queen, i think some Interpet this as he would be going to Create the Xenomorph Queen we see from the Franchise.

I am not sure RS would be taking us the route to Carbon Copy the ideas of James Cameron and so the QUEEN would be different to what we are used to.. so by Queen then David is just looking for a more Efficient way to Obtain more Eggs.

Not long back we had Ridley Scott talk about the Future of the Franchise where you could EVOLVE the Beast and Explore Different kinds of Reproduction.   So its likely we Eventually would have seen Different Variants of the Organism with Different ways to Procreate.

Regarding the Female Synthetic... sure there would be Female Synthetics... and i kind of get where your GOING ;)

In my ideas for a Alien Covenant 2 and 3 i was to introduce a Female Synthetic Construct who becomes a Love Interest to David as she is Easier to Persuade to Join Him compared to Walter who Refused!   So we have a bit of David acting like Lucifer/Serpent and this Synthetic being like Eve!

I was then left with TWO Ways this would END.. which was that the Engineers would Experiment with her to Create the Bio-Mechanical Xenomorph, or that she would Betray him and in Revenge he would create the Bio-Mechanical Xenomorph from her...

This is possible because as a Female Construct she is Part-Organic

Regarding Walter if he is Discovered and has a way he can try and get to David then i think it would be so he could SAVE... Daniels...

If this was ever to Happen and David is Stopped... and Walter Saves the Day...  A Good Twist could be that Walter then Tells Daniels he LOVES HER..

We would not have this like AC where we can be thinking did David do a Switch Again.. no it has to be Clear there is NO more switching and this Walter came from Planet 4.

But it would leave us to think... is that Walter on Planet 4 also a David?    Or is he 100% Walter but somehow his Programing has Changed... so now he has Emotions and so can Actually LOVE her..

Becoming more Human.. even though he could be Considered Good.... holds the Potential that Events Can Shape/Change what he would become...  a ROBOT can only ACT according to his Program... a Human can be Influenced by Many Factors.

A Theodicy about why the Gods are Furious.

When I wrote my straight line novel emerging out of Elizabeth's survival at the end of Prometheus I was anxious to create something unique and original but that was based on solid foundations.

I spent many weeks considering all the official material and IV's up until the point the movie was released before setting down my rule book and beginning. 

However I knew that a very substantial body of work existed which I did not have access to at the time "The Furious Gods :The Making Prometheus."

You can imagine, having tracked this material down through a friend who has been crucial to the development of the story, I was a little nervous when I slipped the Blu Ray in, would this material undermine my start point?

My first run through brought to the fore the whole gamut of emotions and I have decided to deal with all the key questions of the film, answer them and offer how I dealt with them in my work on my blog as a reference document.   

For the moment though some quotations from the first section.  

"What we knew in the first alien is just a tiny tributary of what’s actually going on." Michael Fassbender.

"To dare to talk about who made us and who made them." Ridley Scott

"I think you have got to give the fans something new and you’ve got to maybe sort of upset them a little bit or take that risk." Michael Fassbender. 

"You’ve wrung it dry." Ridley Scott on The Alien Franchise

"Not that it would have changed the story at all." on Using LV426 Steve Messing.

"There looking for Prometheus."

"The old man is on this mission to go and talk to Prometheus."

"The only way to dive into the story of the Space Jockey was they needed to be intrinsically linked to our beginning." On telling the story in a relatable way as opposed to giant comical elephantine beings.

"Our gods came not from the heavens but from the stars."

 All the above Jon Spaihts. 

"Arrogance to believe we are superlative, we maybe minor." Ridley Scott.

"That monster became a feature, a grace note of a much larger story." On how the Engineers grew as the story developed and the creature was a consequence of the Engineers actions.

"It was about humanity confronting the forces that had created it and maybe not liking them that much." 

Jon Spaights. 

Whilst the novel "Regained" is a psychological mystery as opposed to action horror, and therefore tells its story in a different way, having now considered the Furious Gods its clear the the notion that we would travel somewhere and have all our assumptions turned upside down and that we are on the edge of creation and on the wrong side was entirely correct.

As for the creature, and what it represents in general terms, I thought my idea was original, it turns out that Steve Messing was there before me.  

When I have constructed 7 questions and answers and my thoughts I will let those who read this thread know in case they are interested in what the people who made Prometheus were aiming to achieve.

What struck me forcibly about watching the documentary is the evolution of the film was very focused and very clear and Jon had as much sense of ownership and passion on the shift to Prometheus as anyone did. The idea that the film was developed in two distinct modular phases is not borne out by this documentary. It evolved naturally but certain shifts had more political implications than others in particular the naming of the film which evolved naturally through a series of small steps.   

It was always a march toward the Engineers and mankind's origins and then at a tactical level to what extent do we make the connection with the craft and its cargo. At the beginning it was literal at the end it was elliptical but the real point of the story was unchanged. What was the nature of our makers ?

Lindelof shifting the purpose of the mission to pursue Weyland's desire for more life personalised and focused that element of the story.