New Replies (Page 206)

As David says himself:

"I have taken great pains to detail every step, every cell, every mutation, unfortunately none of the planet's life has been proven to be very fruitful. I had some interesting results, but was still far from perfection. With Shaw I realised there was something extraordinary in the substance reaction to the human genome. I was able to unlock new properties and tweak the organisms aggression. An instinct for survival. It took years. But I finally found my wolf. And now I have my flock of lambs too."

Nota bene: The Engineer and the human genome are almost identical.

Well, I’m not sure that there were any Engineers surviving the genocide and if there weren’t, there couldn’t have been any neomorphs in the likeness of what the motes produce when the host is a human. I agree that “the monster” which is the result has taken on traits from its host. As a matter of fact, the neomorph in Spaihts original script had a likeness of Holloway.

The mote is like a miniature mosquito but it drills down under the skin of the host and lays mutated eggs. But what’s really at work is the pathogen whose sole purpose is to eradicate life, kill all fauna. “Puff spores” were indigenous but mutated by the pathogen into the spore sprouting fungi (the spore bacteria entering the host had mutated into some kind of eggs).

I don’t think David’s “Bestiary” contains neomorphs but hybrids and mutated forms of insects and small creatures living in water and on land (but in the novelization, there are stuffed neomorphs, xenomorphs and a living egg with a living facehugger - none of which David has created). There are mutations of larger beasts (and Engineers) but they were probably dead when David found them.

However, if one looks at David’s drawings it’s possible that some Engineers survived and David experimented on some of them (tortured them) but I don’t find that likely. There would already be neomorphs around (perhaps even xenomorphs or Deacons) when the Covenant crew arrive.

"Makes sense...Juggernauts always seemed small and unable to seed an entire planet."

Lets just look at what we see with the Seeding Ship.... the Pebble Ship drops off a Engineer, he is given a Sacrificial Cup/Bowl and Consumes the Contents and then his DNA/Genetic Material Breaks down and combines with the Pathogen where this Substances then has the Engineers DNA and then THIS is what could either Kick Start Basic Life (Unlikely) or be the Catalyst that Evolves Basic Life to Complex.

So it requires sending down a Engineer, if this Engineer Changes his Mind or he Screws Up.. (Drops the Sacrificial Bowl) then they would have to Force the Engineer or send down another Sacrificial Bowl.

Do they SEND only a Single Engineer to a Planet?

IF they Sacrifice a Engineer and Collect the Resulting Material into Urns and USE them to Seed Worlds i think it makes a Much more EFFICIENT System.

IF they did such, i feel it would be a MUCH better way to Seed Worlds, and i do SUSPECT that this was the Initial Intention of the JUGGERNAUT.....  they can be used to Destroy Worlds too, by Virtue of using Sacrificial Goo alone in the URNS..

Looking at such a Theory and IF it is seen as a Great Honor to be Selected to Seed Worlds then this would Explain the Engineers Welcoming the Ship....

WHO KNOWS... if those Engineers are NOT told the Full Truth, and that they maybe dont know ONCE they are taken on those Ships they would be Taken to be Sacrificed, maybe they could be FOOLED to think they are Selected to go to a New World to Start a Colony like the Covenant Crew....

THAT would be a Sinister Twist that would make the Rituals Cruel!   It would be kind of Similar to the PLOT of the Movie The Island

This kind of Deception would be IDEAL if they ever had Problems with the OLD Method where some Engineers Chosen to go down to a Planet would CHANGE their Mind.

It also could then be Considered if in Part they Created Mankind to be Chosen to be Sacrificed instead of their Own Kind....  or they Engineered those Prometheus Engineers instead, and those Engineers then Created Mankind to Replace them in this TASK?

I would say that the Pathogen in Context to the Infected Neomorph Spores will USE a Host to take on Traits and use the Hosts DNA to Evolve/Gestate the Neomorph.

I would say that would explain WHY it had a somewhat Human Form..

Again though, we could look at the Motes from within the Spores simply Need to take on Nutrients to Grow... either way it seems a Host is Required...

Also i would assume a Neomorph Spore could infect a Goat, but would the Resulting Neomorph be Bi-Pedal?  I think maybe we could get the same Difference between a Goat Neomorph and Human similar to the Cow/Dog Alien compared to Human Xenomorph we saw in the Franchise.

The Neomorphs did seem to walk about more like the Runner in Alien 3 anyway, i would say just as there are NOT a massive Difference between Alien 3 Runner and Alien Drone, i think a Goat Neomorph would likely be similar to a Human Neomorph... maybe the Goat Version could have Horns?

So indeed the Neomorph/Xenomorph maybe does-not take on a Massive Amount of a Hosts Traits?  They are mainly just INCUBATORS for the Parasitic Organisms.

What's the point of hosts again? Nutrient sacks? It doesn't use the hosts DNA to create something new.....A neomorph will appear from a goat or a human.

Alien 3 is the only time this changes?

'The SEEDING ships are disc-like...'

Wow! That's a great catch! I never thought about the different type of planet seeding ships. Makes sense...Juggernauts always seemed small and unable to seed an entire planet.

Wonder how large that seeding ship is? 

@BigDave: Also, while Ridley stated Engineers arrive back on Planet 4 to find it decimated, he also mentioned two or three other players coming in to investigate. Weyland-Yutani might be one, but who might the other two be?

@chli: Are the Creators going to be beings much more Giger-like in appearance?

@BigDave: The SEEDING ships are disc-like, similar to UFOs, so I can understand the Engineers of Planet 4 consider one of those returning to be an honourable event.  But if the LV-223 Engineers had turned bad, why would they consider a Juggernaut’s return as positive?

Well, I think that the notion of “hubris” is meant in the classical Greek way (like Prometheus). If you disregard the gods, “nemesis” awaits you.

If the Engineers are guilty of apotheosis, worshipping the Elders as gods (like Sir Peter Weyland: “We are the gods now”), then “nemesis” befalls them. If there is a hierarchy of “gods” (creators) then the Engineers themselves are but dabblers and punished by the ones who created them - the Creators.

Yeah i think its only a Easter Egg, but it would be interesting to see what would happen IF/WHEN the Company go to Planet 4.

I would assume.... that the Covenant is NOT the only Ship who wants to go to Origae-6 with Colonist to START ANEW!

So i assume another Colonist Mission is incoming a Few Years after the Covenant Arrives at Origae-6 the Crew/Colonist would likely have NO idea about what happened to the Covenant or Prometheus..

I then would assume another Ship could be heading after that, ONE that is a Military/Scientific and that is AWARE of what had happened via Davids Advent Message.

I then assume the Engineers with Walter will make up the 3rd and 4th of the Parties who will eventually arrive where David is off too.

As thats what RS had said about the intended Plot for the Sequel to Alien Covenant.  (Be 3-4 incoming Parties to where David is going... ONE will be the Engineers who return and Discover what Happened on Planet 4 and would want to Catch the Culprit).

Regarding Dr Shaw's Fate...

That is something to Speculate, its Certain she Survived the Crash, its Certain she Trusted David but then something Happened that caused her to FEAR him.

Then things went Sour...

It looks like Dr Shaw had played a Role in the Creation of the Xenomorph Eggs... so its LIKELY her Reproductive Cells played a Role!

It had been indicated that David may have offered to EVOLVE her, and she REJECTED this...

some of his Drawings depict Dr Shaw with Various Mutations, Various Experiments and things done to her Body, and what seems like he Infected her with a Face Hugger.

Some of these MAY have happened, some could be what he had Intended, and some are just Basically Fantasies of his...

Its quite Ambiguous....   The Drafts to Alien Covenant seem to indicate Dr Shaw may have Provided a Important Part of the Puzzle to get the Eggs...  And then he TRIED on of them out on HER... to NO Success!

It simply NEVER Gestated as FAR as Orams... it would seem that David had NEVER got to see his Final Masterpiece due to lack of Hosts.... which he Finally got more Hosts once the Covenant had picked up the Signal that David had sent.

But he had seen a Number of Neomorphs and other things he had Created from them, in his Work to Perfect his Experiments which became the Eggs...

But its Ambiguous as some of his Work, indicates he had managed to Gestate a Xenomorph from a Female Engineer.

The Neomorphs are a Infection/Organism that comes from Contact with the Spores..... 

The Spores are something that Evolved from Fungi that grew from the Mold, found at points near Water Supply that lead from the Cargo Bay to the Stream.

So the Crashed Juggernaut had Torn/Scouped up some of the Mountain, Rain causes a Stream to Run over/under the Juggernaut (as it sits on where Water Runs down Mountain to the Stream)

Eventually Mold, Moss and Fungi Grow inside the Cargo Hold, and a Leaked Urn/Ampoule would have Infected the Water Supply and Evolved the Fungi into Neomorph Spores, the Pathogen then also running down the Stream and Evolving other Areas of Fungi to more Spores.

so the Neomorphs are a Result of the Pathogen and NOT by David.

He had however Experimented with the Neomorphs, creating Hybrids with other Organic Matter/Life, he had Experimented and Evolved and Cross Hybrid Various Organisms to obtain the Desired Traits towards making his Xenomorph.

Likely the Black Goo was the TOOL to allow for Cross Hybridization and likely then he had use the Desired Results to then Infect Engineer Egg Cells and then Dr Shaw's to Create his Ovomorphs.

Hi @BigDave. I think that, at least, one egg does not Open in David's basement. Maybe, the company men brought the egg upstairs, because it's easier to observe something with the help of the natural light.  The covenant suit  doesn't bother me. A company doesn't need to make new suits to every mission, because they go to space in a new ship :).

The company doesn't trust in David because he 'unplugged' Walter, a reliable  Android. I believe that the company Will send  a military mission headed to Origae-6 and then try to capture a perfect organism specimen.

It was a small Flick, but its was Nice and cool to watch it.

Alien Covenant movie has grown on me. To measure a success of a movie ONLY by its profit doesn't honor the artistic value of this form of art.

Certainly...

I think we have to be Careful as far as HOW any Biblical Events are Connected, i think we have to Consider those Events are something that likely Happened, but NOT exactly in the way that had been wrote down in Ancient Scriptures..

I think Planet 4 does tick a lot of Boxes as far as what Paradise/Garden of Eden was.... if we say look at Adam and Eve and they had NOT disobeyed/been tricked.

Then from them a Civilization could have developed in the Garden which is in the Walled City...

Adam and Eve were placed in ONE place where God could watch over them, via his Guarding Cherubim Angels.

Thats maybe WHY it appears the Engineers were all Confined/Chose to Live in that ONE City....

Ideal to keep the Inhabitants in Check with the Hierarchies Ways and Rules.... but a HUBRIS if the City was Attacked... a Hubris of Putting all their Eggs in ONE Basket! (no Pun Intended).

I make the Assessment about the Pathogen based on Prometheus and the Drafts that lead up to it.

The First TWO Drafts to Prometheus introduced us to a Sacrificial Bowl that Contained Nano Scarabs.

Engineer is CONSUMED by Scarabs, they Store his DNA and then we see ONE go and Bite a Primordial Female, we see her DNA is Invaded and Mutated as the Scarab Injects the Engineers DNA into the Primordial Female she becomes a Hybrid and so Indication of the EVENT that Evolves the Earlier Hominids into our Ancestors.

The Next Time we see those Scarabs they are in a Urn that is Knocked over by Fifield he is BITTEN.. but he does-not gain any Engineer DNA, or become Consumed, he Turns into a Xenomorph Hybrid..

This seems to indicate those Scarabs must have Consumed the DNA of a Xenomorph related Organism.. those Scarabs are then Collected and Stored into the Urns.

Paradise Draft by Lindeloff seems to be similar, we see our Scarabs are Replaced by a Goo/Pathogen.. but while its more Ambiguous its indicated similar.. Engineer is Sacrificed by Sacrificial Goo.... that is indicated as Forming a Basis to HOW/WHERE our Evolution had came from.

The Urns contain Pathogen that Mutates those Infected with Xenomorph like Traits...   There is indication in Paradise Draft the Engineers had created something they SHOULD-NOT, a Long Time after the Sacrificial Scene.

Prometheus is similar, we do have a Mural in the Movie and Originally  (in the Trailers) in front of the Mural was the Altar that had a Sacrificial Bowl and NOT a Green Crystal the Bowl was Replaced likely due to the Scale of the Bowl would indicate 10ft Engineers

The other drafts described the Engineer taking Cruciform Pose while he was Sacrificing himself... so maybe the Cruciform Pose of the Mural indicates that Organism was Sacrificed and its DNA Collected into those Urns.

My POINT being that it seems the idea was the Sacrificial Substance could Obtain and Pass on the DNA of the Organism that had Consumed/been Consumed by the Sacrificial Substance....  with the DNA of a Xenomorph like Organism being stored in the Urns, indicating likely the  Organism had been infected with the Sacrificial Stuff and the Resulting Broken Down DNA Collected in the Urns.

So if thats Correct then considering the Engineers could Collect Sacrificed Engineer DNA and Store them into Urns would make for a more Practical way to SEED Worlds.

The Engineers considered Gardeners of Space, where Sacrifice is seen as Important to that END... then IF those Juggernauts are Mostly used for that Purpose then a Returning Ship would be seen as a IMPORTANT and Honorable Event...

So if those Engineers are then to have a Few of them Chosen as Sacrifices, as a GREAT Event of Importance, then this would SHOW us WHY the Engineers were NOT even Afraid of the Ship at all..

Until it started to Bombard them ;)

It’s interesting to see Planet 4 as The Garden of Eden where life began and the inhabitants eventually being cast out, perhaps because of apotheosis. On the entrance to the Engineer temple is “The Body of Christ Borne to the Tomb” and, perhaps, of Mary Magdalene who is also fallen . . .

From Davids workshop subjects, I assumed he created the neomorphs?

Or did he just study them?

This is really confusing.

Why are neomorphs human like...I can't believe you mix plant life and black goo to produce a humanoid creature?

Id like to think Shaw was backburst and David just did what he could to save her.

So neomorphs are Engineered creatures that grow to a certain size and regardless what species their host( Elephant/dog/cow/goldfish, etc..), they would still be humanoid like creatures?

They seem far more 'perfect' then a lumbering xeno.

I think the best way to Consider the Difference is those Engineers in Prometheus are Augmented/Enhanced, either as a Sub Creation, a Experiment or they did it to themselves thus becoming Fallen...

I would Assume that Paradise is just that.... the Location of the Garden of Eden, a Walled City, that is the Cradle/Origins of Human Kind...

A Place only the Pure and Worthy are Permitted... by that as in LIVING beings and NOTHING Spiritual...

The only way their Souls can LIVE-ON is being Chosen, and the Chosen will be used for Sacrifices to Seed the Genetic Material.... for this then they would LIVE ON in the DNA they Pass On, and they would have a Statue Erected in their Honor in the Plaza... where they would be Immortalized via their DNA and a Monument in Remembrance of their Donation to Create Life.

I do wonder IF the Juggernauts are just a Evolution of the SEEDING ships.... if a Sacrificial Engineer Consumes the GOO and their Broken Down Genetic Material that is Infused with the Pathogen is then COLLECTED and Stored in JARS, then surely Pouring the Contents into that WATERFALL would have the Same Effect?

Dropping Engineers DNA from above is more Efficient.. and using more than ONE Engineers would add to Diversity within the Gene-pool.

Certainly  i think there is a lot of Mystery, certain things will depend upon other things for Example... "Had he witnessed Engineers step on mutated fungi and got infected by the spores?"  AND "Was the mutated fungi a result of pathogen spilling out from the juggernaut into the stream and not from airborne pathogen?"

Combining those would indicate that Engineers had Survived the Initial Bombardment, where we would then have to ASK how soon did any Urns Pour their Contents into the Stream, after the Crash and then HOW long does the Neomorph Spores take to Grown.. Instantly, Hours, Days etc... 

All we can do is look at the Clues and try and see what Makes sense and what makes sense to others may seem to make not much to others.....

So on ONE HAND... we could have the Bombardment had Spread across the Plaza and City and Infected/Killed the Engineers replicating inside them and then for some reason Days after the Engineers Remains would become Desiccated, a Number of Engineers got away from the Main Bombardment and so become Infected to a Smaller Degree where it TOOK longer to Die and for their Remains to become Desiccated/Decomposed which GAVE enough Time for David to Conduct Experiments on these.

And this includes Infants and Pregnant Females as they would NOT be heading to the Plaza...

Or on another HAND... as above but maybe some Engineers escaped and tried to HIDE AWAY but with Limited Food/Drink they became Weak and Emaciated and so DAYS/WEEKS latter  they was RIPE for the Pickings.

The Neomorph Spores are from Spilled Black Goo after the Crash.

On the Outer Skirts of the City the Infection either Spreads to the Forest Stream and Juggernaut to Cause the Neomorph Spores... or they are the Result of Spilled Pathogen after the CRASH!

And its not a case of JUST those TWO... there could be Variants of Events between both...

I think a Interesting Thing to Consider would be WHAT series of Events would be more Disturbing and Interesting to see if we got a MOVIE, a Novel or Graphic Novel.

I think ONE thing is Certain, it seems Dr Shaw had Survived the Crash and so it would be Interesting to see HOW Long she had Survived before she Died and what Reason she eventually Died!

If you only go by the Movie, then you could Assume She died NOT LONG after the Crash, was she Infected and so David just FELT oh well may as well USE HER?  It seems more likely that you could ASSUME he tried to RAPE her and she Rejected so he KILLED her and decided to Butcher her Body.

I think there is more to those Events than just that!

A case of she AWAKES to Find the Ship Crashed, and then David goes up to her Tries it on, gets Rejected and he KILLS her would be well a Total Waste of Time... i am sure more Sinister Outcome after a Discovery of Lies would be more Fitting!

He LIES to her about the Accidental Bombardment, says Outside is NOT save so she is Confined for Weeks, then as he brings her Food/Drink she gets Suspicious... he says that Despite Paradise being Destroyed, THEY could Rebuild it.... she asks HOW.. he says he could Discover a way for her to Bare Children and ONCE the Contamination has passed, they can START A NEW EDEN..

They could Raise Many Children... she says WHY.. he says because its the ONE THING she could NOT have and he LOVES her... maybe he gets all Touchy Feel

Anyway a Day or so PASSES and she Sneaks Out and discovers she can BREATH outside, she then follows him to the City, and Stumbles on his Workshop and Engineer Females who are Chained Up, and Babies that he is experimenting with!

At this POINT she would have a Horrific Revelation that David is NOT who she felt he was... and she would WANT to TRY and Escape.... he could then Catch Her... say he DID IT ALL for her... KILLED the Engineers... Experimented with the Females and Babies so that he could DISCOVER a way so Dr Shaw could BARE CHILD..

He then Tries to KISS HER... she gets away and he attacks her from Behind and Kills her.. or she Attacks him and Escapes but he then Tracks her Down and KILLS her.

I think such things would make more Sense, a Tragedy for Dr Shaw, and more Horrific

Yes, from the movie we learn that David knew about the neomorphs. He knew that they were afraid of light (why since they have no eyes?) or was it the sound? Had he witnessed Engineers step on mutated fungi and got infected by the spores? Had he witnessed Engineers giving birth to neomorphs and seen what they can do? Did he experiment on neomorphs? Wouldn’t an army of neomorphs be (almost) as deadly as an army of xenomorphs?

Was the mutated fungi a result of pathogen spilling out from the juggernaut into the stream and not from airborne pathogen? One also wonders what would become of infected birds, mammals and fish? It’s also interesting that the Covenant crew can get through the gates to the city but the Engineers couldn’t get out. Are they bigger?

@BigDave: The other curiosity about both prequel films so far is how the Engineers on Planet 4 look a lot less "elegant" as those on LV-223, certainly not attractive by Renaissance standards, appearing somewhat more "Uncanny", a term one tends not to consider when it comes to unfallen angels, or angels period.

@hox: I think RS having David use the term "Paradise" is meant to reference Milton's tale of Rebellion.  But if that's the case, why were the Engineers in a celebratory mood when the Rebel Angel ship returned?

I think thats down to interpretation...

David had conducted Experiments prior to Dr Shaw, his notes he had said the Human Genome Yielded better Results.   There is a lot of Mystery regarding the Experiments,  David could have had ONLY a Limited Number of Engineers to Experiment on, be they ALIVE or Dead but FRESH to conduct Experiments on.

If he had Harvested Engineer Egg Cells, it could be that he found that it was with Dr Shaw he gained his Success, and so he awaited for more Good Souls to come along.. but HOW would he know who would arrive First?  Humans or Engineers?

Regarding the Ultramorph this was a Old Concept that a 15ft Engineer would Birth a Larger more Superior Xenomorph due to them being Larger and more Superior Hosts... hence the Ultramorph was coined..

David had Experimented with Neomorphs and the like before the Covenant had arrived, so the Engineers acted similar as Hosts to what Humans would had been.

The Ultramorph Concepts did Vary, some were like the Neomorph, some like the Deacon and some were like HR Gigers Necromom IV.... the Concept of the Ultramorph was from Earlier Drafts of Prometheus, where it was indicated the Engineers had Created Various kinds of Xenomorph, we have NOT seen any Ultramorphs though, but i guess we could consider the Deacon as such.

So regarding No Experimentation then indeed David would had been interested to had seen what became of Dr Shaw's Child...

The options for this would have been.

*Infected Holloways Sperm, Infects Dr Shaws Egg Cell to create a Hybrid.

*Dr Holloway merely acted as a means to Transfer the Pathogen to Dr Shaw and this infected her Egg Cell

*As above but the Pathogen did-not infect a Egg Cell, it just used her Womb to Incubate.

There was No Way to determine which of this lead to the Trilobite, it was likely the First... 

In which case to Replicate the Deacon, then David would have to Obtain a Infected Engineers Sperm, and then use it on a Engineer Female,  would that WORK with Dead Engineers?  Who knows.

Not if he managed to Harvest a Female Egg Cells, but for how long would they be Viable after Death/Infection of the Pathogen.... would they NOT already be Infected?

If you was David you would also wonder what a Direct Infection of the Black Goo on a Egg Cell would do.

David had also taken notes on the Neomorph, so its a case of DID some Engineers just become Infected and Birth Neomorphs?   Could David had infected a Dead Engineer with the Spores?  But then how soon after the Bombardment had he discovered the Spores and then taken them to Dead Engineers and would they had been in a Good Enough Condition to Infect?

It seems David had been Experimenting with the Neomorph and Infection/Spores and Black Goo in Various Ways and then also using Various Organisms to Obtain certain Traits and Create Hybrids..

Until he had his Masterpiece.

I feel that having Alive Subjects and Organisms makes more Sense, surely such Experiments may not work on Desiccated Organisms?  Who knows.

Again they could be Carried out on Fresh Kills, but looking at all the Work David had done, then he would have had to Collect Fresh Dead Engineers and Organisms and had a way to STORE them from becoming Decomposed or Desiccated

From a Experimentation POV then Alive Specimens are best, or Recently Dead....

Firstly Welcome ;)

"incomplete trilogy decided to be very ambiguous and obscure. There's nobody, except them, who can tell us the truth. We can only make theories"

Certainly another thing is that the PLOT is something that Changes and Evolves as they move from Movie to Movie, some things seem to be kept the same though.

The Plot around the Engineers is to Loosely Incorporate Various Cultures, Mythos and Religion... as these are all Influenced by Interaction and Teachings of the Engineers, that could be Changed as they are Passed on Generation to Generation...

I will keep this First Reply Brief about your OT.

The Building has Influences of the Pantheon it also has some Influences from The Great Stupa of Sanchi

The Entrance is Influenced by the Grmec Monument from Yugoslavia

We could try and see how each of these Influences FIT by looking at WHAT there Purposes were and if that applies to the Engineers Cathedral.

Which i think you tried to do with the Pantheon.

I think to look at it in the Basic Sense, is this was a Centerpiece to the Engineers in that City.  It is a Place of Ritual Importance, certainly in Regards to the Ways of the Engineers.

It would Perform a Role as many Central Religious Buildings would, hence it was referred to as the Cathedral of the Engineers, so it has a Religious Importance as far as what ever Ritual/Culture the Engineers have that is like a Religion to them..

The Center Point does seem to be the Hall of Heads.

These are likely a Image of the Founding Fathers of their Culture and Ways...  as Chris Seagers  (Production Designer) had said these beings are the Hierarchy!

Ridley Scott referred to them as the Apostles (those who pass on/teach their Rituals/Ways). The Wise Men (indicating they are Old and Wise) and Superior Beings (Superior to who? those Planet 4 Engineers?)

They also said the Place is where those Engineers Stored their History and Knowledge, a Library of Sorts.

They could indeed be the Elders, but we cant assume they would look exactly like those from Prometheus.

There appeared to be Patterns on the Floor, in the Concepts a Fire in the Center...  the Patterns do Look a bit like some Ancient Astronomical Star Charts and with the Fire in the Center we could Consider is this a Representation of the Galaxy?

So each of these  Apostles is given a Certain Sector of the Galaxy from which to Spread the Engineers Ways?

Planet 4 was considered their Home-world, Paradise and so its likely this was a Central Meeting Point for the Hierarchy where they would ASSEMBLE to Hold Meetings.

And so the Hall of Heads Room is also likely a COUNSEL of the Elders.  Kind of like a G7 and G8 Summit we have on Earth.

I don't see the logic in having living Engineers to experiment upon. That is precisely what David lacks: live specimens. That is the point of luring the Covenant crew to Planet 4: He needs a “mother”, a host.

If there had been living Engineers on which to experiment upon, you would not only get a xenomorph but an ultramorph. In Prometheus, it was easy to get a Deacon. No experimentation was needed. All you needed was the pathogen and a living host who then had sexual intercourse, and then yet another host . . .

test

I have Read the TWO Drafts for Alien Covenant, they seem to imply when the Covenant Crew arrive that the Planet has more LIFE than we have in the Movie, it implies that a Variety of Life is infected with the Pathogen in that they have become Carries of the Neomorph Infection.

As far as Engineers some are Described as being Desiccated where you can see Skeletal Features and other Described as being Petrified, so what we can take from that is for SOME REASON the remains had DRIED out, is this a Effect of the Black Goo.... or just over TIME.... so there are Factors that are at play that would Usually cause Bodies to Decompose.... that are NOT present or happening on Planet 4.

So regarding the CLIMATE its as i said before the ONLY way all those Bodies would look the way they did IF its not a Immediate Effect of the Black Goo (Turning Cells to like Solid Matter) then the Environment must have become in a way that would allow for MASS Desiccation which would mean the whole AREA would have to have became DRY and ARID, and caused the Bodies to Dry out Fast, also a Lack of Organisms that would Consume Flesh would also have to NOT be Present.

If this had Happened, then those Bodies would NOT be of use to David we can Assume, not in that State, but as i said before, he could have GOT to the Bodies before they had Dried Out....  but then depending HOW quick they would Dry Out... or Decompose while In-Doors would leave David a Limited Time to Conduct his Experiments.... and Studies.

From Hatton and Hallets comments on their Work, they imply that David had Living Engineer Specimens.. it seems a lot of his Work towards the Xenomorph was based off Engineer Reproductive Cells...

Regarding the Stampede then YES some could DIE during that, but its a case of WOULD the Pathogen Effect a Dead Person.... especially soon after Death because Cells are Still Alive for some time... again this is something we can only Guess.

Regarding being Held Up.... we see the Engineers trying to RUN Towards the Cathedral, a Logical Reaction to the Bombardment for those in the Distance would be to Seek SHELTER...

There are a FEW shots in the Movie that appear to show the Engineers trying to get past a Barrier Gate that is SHUT, there are also a Number of Engineers right outside the Cathedral as the Bombardment Started.

So NOT all Engineers were in that Courtyard, i think MANY were, and as soon as they Noticed what was going on they would FLEE to Safety...

The Question is WOULD there be any Place Safe?

Could Tiny Particles of the Pathogen had entered any place they are Hiding?  Could some in the Distance had been Infected with a Small Number of Particles before they made it INDOORS?

And so what would be such Effects, the Same? would they Survive Longer, but be Dying? would being IN-DOORS had prevented those from becoming Desiccated?

Surely some Engineers got inside the Cathedral before the Doors Closed, we dont see any Bodies inside, but we have NOT seen every Inch of the Building and any Bodies could have been Removed by David..

Or Experimented on by him IF their Bodies are Less Infected or Remains are in better Condition to do Anatomical Studies and Experiments on.

From the Persepective of Performing Studies then the Bodies would ideally have to be in some kind of Good Condition for the duration of how long his Studies had taken.

From working and Experimenting with the Pathogen, it would be ideal to HAVE some Uninfected and ideally LIVE Subjects to Test on...

As we DONT have any Direct Scenes or Flashbacks then it leaves it open to debate...

@Gavin

Glad you appreciated my theory, I will create more topics in the future to discuss why I think that engineers' culture is based (along with "gods") also on "saints" (like the one in the ampule room). To answer your question, in my opinion the head in the ampule room is a simulacrum of the first engineer that ever had the honor to sacrifice himself with the pathogen. In general, I think that Ridley, in order to create the engineers culture, mixed lots of latin/greek and christian aspects in a very clever (and sometimes confusing) way, a thing the members of this forum probably already discussed in every detail possible.

@ignorantGuy

1. That's why I said "probably", I can't be sure it's them 100% since Ridley never confirmed it (like 90% of the things in Prometheus/Covenant) but if you think about it, it can be absolutely plausible, since, at least to my eyes, they seem to be really high status (if not the highest) in the sacrifice scene of Prometheus. If we theorize that the sacrifice scene took place thousands of years before Prometheus, there's a possibility that they are dead by the time of Covenant (since the seem to be mortal just like us) and their remains are preserved inside the temple.

2. Yes, the Pantheon became a church, and like you said, only important and famous people could be buried inside, not everyone. But why? In my opinion, so that people could remember and learn from their deeds (or "ways", like David would say). Also, why placing the remains of a person in such a place, visited by millions of people every year? In my opinion, to make them "immortal". What is the main feature of a god if not immortality? Remember Peter Weyland: he wanted to meet the engineers because he tought they could make him immortal (become a god), thinking that they were real gods (thing they are not).  Of course, the people buried inside the Pantheon are not worshipped as literal "gods", but, if you think about it, they had really outstanding (god-like) abilties, like Sanzio and Carracci. That's why they were buried in such really important place. I'm sure that a today architect or painter could "worship" (admire) them as "gods"(people with outstanding talent in their disciplines) with no problem. Again, in my opinion, Ridley took inspiration from this in order to create a culture where science is a "religion", and the "gods" are the most talented scientists, so god-like in their abilities they unlocked the secrets to reshape life. Pretty similar to what happenend on our planet in 2023 with Peter Weyland, where, thanks to his corporation, android construction and insterstellar travelling became reality.

3. You're right! Sanzio was both architect and painter, Carracci only a painter. My error. Thanks for pointing it out.

4. Vittorio Emanuele II, first king of Italy, is also buried inside the Pantheon, along with his son Umberto I. While typing I was probably thinking also about the late, and published an erroneous thing. Again, thanks for pointing it out.

5. I don't think the engineer temple is  a simple monastery, more likely the most important place for their entire race. This of course doesn't exclude the construction of other religious buildings in other places (or planets). There's only one thing. If David decided, during the time he was travelling with Shaw to Planet 4, to go in that particular place, is probably because he discovered, while "learning of their ways", that the Engineer city (including the temple and the square) was the most important place for the engineers. He hates them, and wanted to destroy them all. So he attacked them in their vital spot. In future topics I'll my explain my theory also about the importance of the square in the engineer culture.

6. My theory about the engineers hierarchy is based only of what Ridley showed us in the movies. In my opinion, engineer's society, as well as their culture, is completely based on some type of "religious science". In a culture like this, the people who has scientific knowledge, also has power. This can be found also in the roman culture, where the emperor was also "Pontifex Maximus" a religious and scientific figure. the name means "The greatest bridge-maker", because he was, along with very few people, the man who preserved the secret of bridge building. So the emperor had religious ,scientific, and political power.We can find this also today, in catholic christianity, where the pope is also called pontifex, now only as honorary title. In the Engineer's culture, the few people (the elders) that know the secrets of how to reshape life using pathogen are also the rulers. In my opinion, those secrets are preserved inside the temple, and have been used by David to shape his "Wolf".

7. If an alien (of course not hostile, and with the desire to study and understand our culture) arrives on earth, looking at Socrates and Jesus, he will probably think of them as very important people for our culture, and why not rulers. By speaking with us, he could then discover that they were absolutely not rulers, but two important figures that shaped western culture .The difference is that we know almost nothing about the engineers, because the director and screenwriters of an (at least for now) incomplete trilogy decided to be very ambiguous and obscure. There's nobody, except them, who can tell us the truth. We can only make theories.

Isn’t it possible that some died before the pathogen got to them? In the stampede? There are also bodies in graves. The “hybrid infants” could have mutated before dying. I also wonder in what way the Engineers were “held up”? The climate on Planet 4 might be tropical with wet and dry seasons. I don’t see why not these bodies can look like they do in 10 years’ time?

ironhead 

"These figures are probably the same featured in the first deleted scene of Prometheus", how you draw this conclusion, we are talking about a space faring civilization millions of years old and all it's important people all living at the same time? 

"Centuries after the fall of romans, the Pantheon mantained [maintained] a very similar function of deification. How? By becoming the tomb of important figures in the culture and history of Italy: Architects, like Raffaello Sanzio and Annibale Carracci, and Kings, like Umberto I, first King of Italy." There several wrong things here:

1. The Pantheon was converted in the early 7th century into a Christian church, and you know what happened in important churches they buried important people in them. But that those not mean that they would surely be with God or be worship like the dead pharaohs or the emperors of Rome. Sanctification might be closer in the Christian religion, but none of the people you mentioned are saints.

2. Annibale Carracci was a painter not an architect, did you just copy paste from Wikipedia?

3. Umberto was not the first the Italian King, Victor Emanuel II was that. Are you trying to white-wash the deeds of @$$-hole who ordered the massacre his own people and dreams of colonial grandeur?

"Inside the temple, the engineers also preserve all their knowledge", if that is true every respectable monastery from the middle ages would have contained way more knowledge.

By your conclusion, if an alien would come if he would have found a Statue of Socrates or even of Jesus he should assume that would have been rulers, not people executed in a very shameful manner.  You cannot imply a social hierarchy (or organisation) only by statues without a proper context (which is not really given).

Welcome to Scified.

Interesting and highly plausible theory.

If the heads in the hall of heads deify those they represent, is the same true of the head in the ampule/urn room on LV-223, and if so why do you theorize said engineer was deified?

more please.....wonderfull work.

sorry been off planet for a while . . . . .bug hunting . . . .just wanted to know any news on the new manticore paradise . . . . . .wheres the next chapter my second mandibles are clicking with anticipation.

@hox

I will try and Answer your earlier post.... it really is Ambigious to what the Answers could be though..

*Was LV-223 always a Place that Produced the Pathogen that had the Effects we saw in Prometheus or Alien Covenant.

*Why the Mural and Fresco if the Pathogen was intended to just KILL like in Alien Covenant... it seemed more Logical from Prometheus that the Infection would either Spread and Break Down the Victims Molecular Structure or Evolve them into Hybrid Organisms that had Deacon like Traits!

*If the Engineers are the Fallen Angels, then in what Context does this APPLY and to WHICH of our Engineers? All of them?

Using such a WMD is NOT the Ideal way to Cleanse a World, it is a Good Way to Evolve a World to become Horrors like the Experiments they was Conducting and Effects we saw in Prometheus.

But they surely had NOT intended this all along? So a Decision was made to go about and Destroy us, was the Pathogen something they had for Many Thousands of Years... as in the SAME as we saw on those Juggernauts and LV-223?

Was its something more Recent or it was Adapted to something different more Recent... Recent as in 2'000-5'000 Years

A lot comes down to HOW the Engineers and Fallen Angels are Connected, and HOW the Prometheus Mythos is too... from the POV of Yahweh then Lucifer was Fallen and those who Followed him, from the POV of Zues then Prometheus was Fallen and those who Followed/Supported him.

Both had Allowed Mankind to Gain Knowledge that GOD/GODS did-not want Humanity to Have!

So had those LV-223 Engineers done this... was they Punished, the Punishment Failed, so they then had Encountered or as a Result of the Punishment they then Became Obsessed with the Creation of Organisms like in the Mural... 

They then Chose to UPGRADE the Engineers Creations (Mankind) with something those Fallen Engineers had Created?

It really is a Agenda and Questions that we can Speculate over and over, the Possibilities are Quite Numerous

SABOTAGE.... Maybe, maybe some had NOT agreed with what was to be Carried out and Attempted to STOP IT?

Or they are simply Incompetent..... which would be ODD if they have been Dealing with the Pathogen in the Form we have seen for a LONG LONG TIME.

@Chli

Certainly i think if you ONLY go by what you see on Screen, then you do only have a Limited amount of Clues to Follow.  But most people would only see just the Movie to Form a opinion on Certain things.. most people would not even Care about such Details ;)

It comes down to the OLD Chestnut.... what you Choose to use to Form a Interpretation and when things are NOT really Spoon Fed, then we can all Interpret things differently.

Sometimes its as Dr Shaw said... "its what i choose to Believe"

Thats No Knock against anyone, because i would also be Guilty of Speculation too ;)

So when it comes down to WHAT we are Shown, there are things that are THERE that are Faint, for example there could be some Drawings or other things in the Shot that are Too Distant to make out, but Photos from the SET or like that Video Celebrating the 2nd Anniversary of the DVD Release, they could SHOW us what was too Far or Blurred to make out in the Movie..

Do such things NOT count?  Thats not a Attack, i never attack anyone's opinions (i hope it dont seem like that, if so sorry) but what i mean is its like the EGG shot in Prometheus, a Egg that was HELD by those Xenomorph like ARMS... it was there, but in the Movie it was Partially Dissolved and a Split Second... so UNLESS you knew about it, you could Miss It....

So while i Speculate about the Engineers, then INDEED thats not to say this is what Happened as we Never see David mention about what he did to the Engineers or what state those Poor Souls where in when he began his Anatomy etc.

So if i try and Counter my Speculation, and try and see if i can make sense of a Alternative... then it REALLY does depend on a Few Things.

*What was the Effect of the Black Goo Bombardment, the Total Effects and After Effects. 

*When was it that David had Conducted his Experiments and Autopsy/Anatomy of those Engineers.

In the Movie we see the Engineers are Swarmed/Rained down on by the Pathogen, it Enters the Engineers Body and seems to Leave the Engineers Body (in Larger Amounts), the Question is ONCE this Process Stops what is the State of the Engineer Bodies?

If we came across say a Farm that had say 4-6 Occupants who had Died from a Pathogen, one that Does-Not mutate their Bodies... so they would just be like a Corpse that had Collapsed from another Ailments, Heart Failure, Stroke etc.

For a Period of Time (depends on Environment, Temperature) those Bodies would be simply to Perform a Accurate Autopsy/Anatomy Check on.

If the Engineers Bodies are similar after they DIED from the Black Goo, then i would say YES.. there is NO reason David could NOT have Performed his Studies on them!

If he got to them before they Decomposed!

The Bodies However dont look much like Decomposed, they look more like Mummified... was this a Effect of the Black Goo?   Does the Goo somehow make the Dead Remains Solidify in such a Manner?

sometimes Decomposition can look like Mummification, if a Body say dies in a COLD Environment or Trapped under ICE/SNOW.

It can also do this if it is NOT in a Warm Environment, Sunlight and is thus in a Contained Environment that the AIR and Bacteria and other Microbes cant get Access too!  Then a Long Dead Body can look more Mummified.... and not Partially Decomposed.

IF the Bombardment Killed all Microscopic Organisms within a Large Area, then maybe that would HELP the Bodies appear to be Mummified...  its another thing to Consider!

So its like saying if Thousands of People were KILLED by a Hybrid FLU or Malaria and they was left to ROT, then we have to ASK under what Circumstances would their Bodies Become like the Mummified Engineer Remains and NOT end up Decomposed or Skeletal Partially or Fully.

But Certainly as FAR as getting to Fresh Corpses, then you could do a Ideal Autopsy and Anatomical Study. But then its a CASE of how soon had he done Experiment after Experiment, Autopsy after Autopsy etc?

Does he have a way to Preserve the Bodies?  Like a Meat Freezer etc?  Who knows...

We see some of his Studies and Experiments are in a Remarkable State of Preservation... Do the Engineers posses any Chemical Agents or ways they can Preserve Corpses he had Plastinated some of his Works, but some do-not look Plastinated

Some of his Works include Detailed Experiments and Study on Engineer Organs and Anatomy which include what appears to be Hybrid Infants, can the Black Goo or Neomorph Spores have any Effect on DEAD Engineers?

So those are the things we have to Consider if we are going to Discard any Chance of Survivors...

REGARDING how he would Obtain Alive Engineers, as i have said before, if they was HELD UP away, with Limited Food/Drink, eventually they would become Too Weak/Emaciated to put up a Fight!

A biomechanical Engineer caught David by surprise before going berserk on him. The Planet 4 Engineers didn't appear weak but didn't appear war like either. They seemed like peaceful monks. Also, David was pretty formidable judging by the fight with Walter. 

BigDave

But if we go by just what we see (or hear) in the movie, what proof is there that some Engineers survived the genocide and were caught by David?

We have seen what one Engineer could do to David, so would David stand a chance against several of them on their own home ground? They would probably have weapons and food in stock and the flora is intact.

The Engineer bodies we see outside the cathedral have been exposed to weather and wind for ten years. David would have used "fresh" bodies for his experiments.

MonsterZero

I suppose a flashback scene showing David killing Shaw could be interesting, on the other hand not showing gets your imagination going . . .

If they could flashback to the fate of the Planet 4 Engineers, why not show the what happened to Shaw!? I'd put her above the stature of the Engineers(character wise)? ?

David(voice over)"..There were complications waking her from hypersleep.....She passed peacefully..."

But show him killing her(with a rolled up drawing..Ash was weaksauce!)

Well hox thats like the Million Dollar Question...  i have to come back to that one ;)

@Chli

You raise some Good Points as Usual ;)

I think with the Plot for AC that leads from The Crossing, we have to assume a certain number of things...   it was always a Question of Dr Shaw would need to Re-attach David at some point, and if we NEVER had Alien Covenant, then she would still had needed to Acquire some Tools to FIX HIM.... as i doubt Engineers would have a Ideal set Handy!

The Rest of the stuff from The Crossing would only be needed IF...

*There was NO kind of Nutrition/Drink for Dr Shaw on the Engineers Ship

*She would NOT be going into Cryo-sleep any time Soon or the Cryo-Pods would not Sustain her!

These are Effected by HOW-SOON she decides and is able to put David back together again...  By Virtue of Noomi Rapace being cast for The Crossing and likely having to keep her Hair Long (for other Work) then it was a Necessity that she would have had to Salvage more from the Prometheus/Life-Boat.

She simply would have HAD to go to the Life-Boat or Prometheus Wreckage to get THINGS for her Survival while she Contemplates putting David back together and also for the TOOLS she would NEED... if they are on the Life-Boat... then NO TOOLS... and she was maybe NOT going to Leave this Place... or so David would lead her to Believe..

It seems 4/5 Days Passed from when the Engineer was Face Hugged, to when the Deacon had Chest Bursted we dont know WHEN the Trilobite had Rolled off the Engineer....   So maybe when she got to the Life-Boat they both appeared LIFELESS! so she would then Rush Around getting whats Needed..

Maybe all David knew at that Point was the Engineers Experiments make Organisms that KILL and maybe he would NOT be aware that the Trilobite was a Stage in a Life-Cycle?

If he DID know, then he could inform Dr Shaw she has a Limited Window to Get the Stuff and Leave LV-223 before her Grandchild is BORN ;)

Regarding the NOVEL and Engineers, i have not read it, and its a case of maybe we accept it unless it Contradicts anything shown on Screen...

Sometimes the Writers dont really THINK much!

There is certain Life-Forms that Survived, not Limited to Insects from Davids work notes.... The Engineer Bodies outside in Alien Covenant did-not look like they would be MUCH use for Experiments...

It seems he had Experimented with Female Engineers including their Reproductive System... it makes more Sense that he had acquired some ALIVE Engineers.

Hatton and Hallett had discussed that some of their Work, had depicted various Experiments and Torture that David had conducted on the Engineers, its hard to Torture a Dead Being.. that would just be Mutilation.

So i think its a case of Interpretation and seeing what makes more Sense, as far as IF there were Survivors.

The Pathogen Likely had a LARGE Radius, certainly.... it also likely had a Set Time before the Effects would PASS!

I think that Gave him a Reason for Dr Shaw to be HELD UP in the Juggernaut.... he would also likely want to NOT get too close to any Engineers until he is sure that the Pathogen has done the JOB....

It could seem Dr Shaw and David were still on Good Terms for a While... she likely Accepted Davids reasons for the Bombardment (likely a Lie), so there would have to be a FEW Good Reasons for WHY their Relationship went SOUR!

*Discovering the Real Reason the Pathogen was Released (Prevented her from her Answers). May get her angry!

*Discovering David maybe lying about HOW-LONG the Outside would be SAFE... could also..

*Discovering what David had Done to the Engineers, especially if she discovers some were or are Alive.. would Certainly make her WANT to not be around him!

*Having him make Advanced Towards her, showing he has more than Platonic Interest in her... that may FREAK her out!  It depends on HOW he takes Rejection as to IF thats enough for her to WANT to be away from him.

Its possible that a Combination of the above happened... these would GIVE her a Reason to want to try and KEEP away....

So YES at some point he may have either Dragged her from this Place... (likely) or she had been Caught while Trying to Run away from After  Discovering Davids Workshop of Horrors!

Furthermore, in the novelization, David says that he became “consumed with studying the minimal surviving fauna” (insects e.g.). In the lab there is a dead Engineer lying on a table, stripped of skin, fat and muscle. David says that it was messy but that he had “thousands of examples from which to choose”, referring to all the corpses lying outside the cathedral.

Except for insects, the only living thing he finds is the xenomorph egg (in the lab) with a living facehugger inside it! He had to kill it though since it was too aggressive . . .