Comments (Page 206)

@Gavin

Glad you appreciated my theory, I will create more topics in the future to discuss why I think that engineers' culture is based (along with "gods") also on "saints" (like the one in the ampule room). To answer your question, in my opinion the head in the ampule room is a simulacrum of the first engineer that ever had the honor to sacrifice himself with the pathogen. In general, I think that Ridley, in order to create the engineers culture, mixed lots of latin/greek and christian aspects in a very clever (and sometimes confusing) way, a thing the members of this forum probably already discussed in every detail possible.

@ignorantGuy

1. That's why I said "probably", I can't be sure it's them 100% since Ridley never confirmed it (like 90% of the things in Prometheus/Covenant) but if you think about it, it can be absolutely plausible, since, at least to my eyes, they seem to be really high status (if not the highest) in the sacrifice scene of Prometheus. If we theorize that the sacrifice scene took place thousands of years before Prometheus, there's a possibility that they are dead by the time of Covenant (since the seem to be mortal just like us) and their remains are preserved inside the temple.

2. Yes, the Pantheon became a church, and like you said, only important and famous people could be buried inside, not everyone. But why? In my opinion, so that people could remember and learn from their deeds (or "ways", like David would say). Also, why placing the remains of a person in such a place, visited by millions of people every year? In my opinion, to make them "immortal". What is the main feature of a god if not immortality? Remember Peter Weyland: he wanted to meet the engineers because he tought they could make him immortal (become a god), thinking that they were real gods (thing they are not).  Of course, the people buried inside the Pantheon are not worshipped as literal "gods", but, if you think about it, they had really outstanding (god-like) abilties, like Sanzio and Carracci. That's why they were buried in such really important place. I'm sure that a today architect or painter could "worship" (admire) them as "gods"(people with outstanding talent in their disciplines) with no problem. Again, in my opinion, Ridley took inspiration from this in order to create a culture where science is a "religion", and the "gods" are the most talented scientists, so god-like in their abilities they unlocked the secrets to reshape life. Pretty similar to what happenend on our planet in 2023 with Peter Weyland, where, thanks to his corporation, android construction and insterstellar travelling became reality.

3. You're right! Sanzio was both architect and painter, Carracci only a painter. My error. Thanks for pointing it out.

4. Vittorio Emanuele II, first king of Italy, is also buried inside the Pantheon, along with his son Umberto I. While typing I was probably thinking also about the late, and published an erroneous thing. Again, thanks for pointing it out.

5. I don't think the engineer temple is  a simple monastery, more likely the most important place for their entire race. This of course doesn't exclude the construction of other religious buildings in other places (or planets). There's only one thing. If David decided, during the time he was travelling with Shaw to Planet 4, to go in that particular place, is probably because he discovered, while "learning of their ways", that the Engineer city (including the temple and the square) was the most important place for the engineers. He hates them, and wanted to destroy them all. So he attacked them in their vital spot. In future topics I'll my explain my theory also about the importance of the square in the engineer culture.

6. My theory about the engineers hierarchy is based only of what Ridley showed us in the movies. In my opinion, engineer's society, as well as their culture, is completely based on some type of "religious science". In a culture like this, the people who has scientific knowledge, also has power. This can be found also in the roman culture, where the emperor was also "Pontifex Maximus" a religious and scientific figure. the name means "The greatest bridge-maker", because he was, along with very few people, the man who preserved the secret of bridge building. So the emperor had religious ,scientific, and political power.We can find this also today, in catholic christianity, where the pope is also called pontifex, now only as honorary title. In the Engineer's culture, the few people (the elders) that know the secrets of how to reshape life using pathogen are also the rulers. In my opinion, those secrets are preserved inside the temple, and have been used by David to shape his "Wolf".

7. If an alien (of course not hostile, and with the desire to study and understand our culture) arrives on earth, looking at Socrates and Jesus, he will probably think of them as very important people for our culture, and why not rulers. By speaking with us, he could then discover that they were absolutely not rulers, but two important figures that shaped western culture .The difference is that we know almost nothing about the engineers, because the director and screenwriters of an (at least for now) incomplete trilogy decided to be very ambiguous and obscure. There's nobody, except them, who can tell us the truth. We can only make theories.

Isn’t it possible that some died before the pathogen got to them? In the stampede? There are also bodies in graves. The “hybrid infants” could have mutated before dying. I also wonder in what way the Engineers were “held up”? The climate on Planet 4 might be tropical with wet and dry seasons. I don’t see why not these bodies can look like they do in 10 years’ time?

ironhead 

"These figures are probably the same featured in the first deleted scene of Prometheus", how you draw this conclusion, we are talking about a space faring civilization millions of years old and all it's important people all living at the same time? 

"Centuries after the fall of romans, the Pantheon mantained [maintained] a very similar function of deification. How? By becoming the tomb of important figures in the culture and history of Italy: Architects, like Raffaello Sanzio and Annibale Carracci, and Kings, like Umberto I, first King of Italy." There several wrong things here:

1. The Pantheon was converted in the early 7th century into a Christian church, and you know what happened in important churches they buried important people in them. But that those not mean that they would surely be with God or be worship like the dead pharaohs or the emperors of Rome. Sanctification might be closer in the Christian religion, but none of the people you mentioned are saints.

2. Annibale Carracci was a painter not an architect, did you just copy paste from Wikipedia?

3. Umberto was not the first the Italian King, Victor Emanuel II was that. Are you trying to white-wash the deeds of @$$-hole who ordered the massacre his own people and dreams of colonial grandeur?

"Inside the temple, the engineers also preserve all their knowledge", if that is true every respectable monastery from the middle ages would have contained way more knowledge.

By your conclusion, if an alien would come if he would have found a Statue of Socrates or even of Jesus he should assume that would have been rulers, not people executed in a very shameful manner.  You cannot imply a social hierarchy (or organisation) only by statues without a proper context (which is not really given).

Welcome to Scified.

Interesting and highly plausible theory.

If the heads in the hall of heads deify those they represent, is the same true of the head in the ampule/urn room on LV-223, and if so why do you theorize said engineer was deified?

more please.....wonderfull work.

sorry been off planet for a while . . . . .bug hunting . . . .just wanted to know any news on the new manticore paradise . . . . . .wheres the next chapter my second mandibles are clicking with anticipation.

@hox

I will try and Answer your earlier post.... it really is Ambigious to what the Answers could be though..

*Was LV-223 always a Place that Produced the Pathogen that had the Effects we saw in Prometheus or Alien Covenant.

*Why the Mural and Fresco if the Pathogen was intended to just KILL like in Alien Covenant... it seemed more Logical from Prometheus that the Infection would either Spread and Break Down the Victims Molecular Structure or Evolve them into Hybrid Organisms that had Deacon like Traits!

*If the Engineers are the Fallen Angels, then in what Context does this APPLY and to WHICH of our Engineers? All of them?

Using such a WMD is NOT the Ideal way to Cleanse a World, it is a Good Way to Evolve a World to become Horrors like the Experiments they was Conducting and Effects we saw in Prometheus.

But they surely had NOT intended this all along? So a Decision was made to go about and Destroy us, was the Pathogen something they had for Many Thousands of Years... as in the SAME as we saw on those Juggernauts and LV-223?

Was its something more Recent or it was Adapted to something different more Recent... Recent as in 2'000-5'000 Years

A lot comes down to HOW the Engineers and Fallen Angels are Connected, and HOW the Prometheus Mythos is too... from the POV of Yahweh then Lucifer was Fallen and those who Followed him, from the POV of Zues then Prometheus was Fallen and those who Followed/Supported him.

Both had Allowed Mankind to Gain Knowledge that GOD/GODS did-not want Humanity to Have!

So had those LV-223 Engineers done this... was they Punished, the Punishment Failed, so they then had Encountered or as a Result of the Punishment they then Became Obsessed with the Creation of Organisms like in the Mural... 

They then Chose to UPGRADE the Engineers Creations (Mankind) with something those Fallen Engineers had Created?

It really is a Agenda and Questions that we can Speculate over and over, the Possibilities are Quite Numerous

SABOTAGE.... Maybe, maybe some had NOT agreed with what was to be Carried out and Attempted to STOP IT?

Or they are simply Incompetent..... which would be ODD if they have been Dealing with the Pathogen in the Form we have seen for a LONG LONG TIME.

@Chli

Certainly i think if you ONLY go by what you see on Screen, then you do only have a Limited amount of Clues to Follow.  But most people would only see just the Movie to Form a opinion on Certain things.. most people would not even Care about such Details ;)

It comes down to the OLD Chestnut.... what you Choose to use to Form a Interpretation and when things are NOT really Spoon Fed, then we can all Interpret things differently.

Sometimes its as Dr Shaw said... "its what i choose to Believe"

Thats No Knock against anyone, because i would also be Guilty of Speculation too ;)

So when it comes down to WHAT we are Shown, there are things that are THERE that are Faint, for example there could be some Drawings or other things in the Shot that are Too Distant to make out, but Photos from the SET or like that Video Celebrating the 2nd Anniversary of the DVD Release, they could SHOW us what was too Far or Blurred to make out in the Movie..

Do such things NOT count?  Thats not a Attack, i never attack anyone's opinions (i hope it dont seem like that, if so sorry) but what i mean is its like the EGG shot in Prometheus, a Egg that was HELD by those Xenomorph like ARMS... it was there, but in the Movie it was Partially Dissolved and a Split Second... so UNLESS you knew about it, you could Miss It....

So while i Speculate about the Engineers, then INDEED thats not to say this is what Happened as we Never see David mention about what he did to the Engineers or what state those Poor Souls where in when he began his Anatomy etc.

So if i try and Counter my Speculation, and try and see if i can make sense of a Alternative... then it REALLY does depend on a Few Things.

*What was the Effect of the Black Goo Bombardment, the Total Effects and After Effects. 

*When was it that David had Conducted his Experiments and Autopsy/Anatomy of those Engineers.

In the Movie we see the Engineers are Swarmed/Rained down on by the Pathogen, it Enters the Engineers Body and seems to Leave the Engineers Body (in Larger Amounts), the Question is ONCE this Process Stops what is the State of the Engineer Bodies?

If we came across say a Farm that had say 4-6 Occupants who had Died from a Pathogen, one that Does-Not mutate their Bodies... so they would just be like a Corpse that had Collapsed from another Ailments, Heart Failure, Stroke etc.

For a Period of Time (depends on Environment, Temperature) those Bodies would be simply to Perform a Accurate Autopsy/Anatomy Check on.

If the Engineers Bodies are similar after they DIED from the Black Goo, then i would say YES.. there is NO reason David could NOT have Performed his Studies on them!

If he got to them before they Decomposed!

The Bodies However dont look much like Decomposed, they look more like Mummified... was this a Effect of the Black Goo?   Does the Goo somehow make the Dead Remains Solidify in such a Manner?

sometimes Decomposition can look like Mummification, if a Body say dies in a COLD Environment or Trapped under ICE/SNOW.

It can also do this if it is NOT in a Warm Environment, Sunlight and is thus in a Contained Environment that the AIR and Bacteria and other Microbes cant get Access too!  Then a Long Dead Body can look more Mummified.... and not Partially Decomposed.

IF the Bombardment Killed all Microscopic Organisms within a Large Area, then maybe that would HELP the Bodies appear to be Mummified...  its another thing to Consider!

So its like saying if Thousands of People were KILLED by a Hybrid FLU or Malaria and they was left to ROT, then we have to ASK under what Circumstances would their Bodies Become like the Mummified Engineer Remains and NOT end up Decomposed or Skeletal Partially or Fully.

But Certainly as FAR as getting to Fresh Corpses, then you could do a Ideal Autopsy and Anatomical Study. But then its a CASE of how soon had he done Experiment after Experiment, Autopsy after Autopsy etc?

Does he have a way to Preserve the Bodies?  Like a Meat Freezer etc?  Who knows...

We see some of his Studies and Experiments are in a Remarkable State of Preservation... Do the Engineers posses any Chemical Agents or ways they can Preserve Corpses he had Plastinated some of his Works, but some do-not look Plastinated

Some of his Works include Detailed Experiments and Study on Engineer Organs and Anatomy which include what appears to be Hybrid Infants, can the Black Goo or Neomorph Spores have any Effect on DEAD Engineers?

So those are the things we have to Consider if we are going to Discard any Chance of Survivors...

REGARDING how he would Obtain Alive Engineers, as i have said before, if they was HELD UP away, with Limited Food/Drink, eventually they would become Too Weak/Emaciated to put up a Fight!

A biomechanical Engineer caught David by surprise before going berserk on him. The Planet 4 Engineers didn't appear weak but didn't appear war like either. They seemed like peaceful monks. Also, David was pretty formidable judging by the fight with Walter. 

BigDave

But if we go by just what we see (or hear) in the movie, what proof is there that some Engineers survived the genocide and were caught by David?

We have seen what one Engineer could do to David, so would David stand a chance against several of them on their own home ground? They would probably have weapons and food in stock and the flora is intact.

The Engineer bodies we see outside the cathedral have been exposed to weather and wind for ten years. David would have used "fresh" bodies for his experiments.

MonsterZero

I suppose a flashback scene showing David killing Shaw could be interesting, on the other hand not showing gets your imagination going . . .

If they could flashback to the fate of the Planet 4 Engineers, why not show the what happened to Shaw!? I'd put her above the stature of the Engineers(character wise)? ?

David(voice over)"..There were complications waking her from hypersleep.....She passed peacefully..."

But show him killing her(with a rolled up drawing..Ash was weaksauce!)

Well hox thats like the Million Dollar Question...  i have to come back to that one ;)

@Chli

You raise some Good Points as Usual ;)

I think with the Plot for AC that leads from The Crossing, we have to assume a certain number of things...   it was always a Question of Dr Shaw would need to Re-attach David at some point, and if we NEVER had Alien Covenant, then she would still had needed to Acquire some Tools to FIX HIM.... as i doubt Engineers would have a Ideal set Handy!

The Rest of the stuff from The Crossing would only be needed IF...

*There was NO kind of Nutrition/Drink for Dr Shaw on the Engineers Ship

*She would NOT be going into Cryo-sleep any time Soon or the Cryo-Pods would not Sustain her!

These are Effected by HOW-SOON she decides and is able to put David back together again...  By Virtue of Noomi Rapace being cast for The Crossing and likely having to keep her Hair Long (for other Work) then it was a Necessity that she would have had to Salvage more from the Prometheus/Life-Boat.

She simply would have HAD to go to the Life-Boat or Prometheus Wreckage to get THINGS for her Survival while she Contemplates putting David back together and also for the TOOLS she would NEED... if they are on the Life-Boat... then NO TOOLS... and she was maybe NOT going to Leave this Place... or so David would lead her to Believe..

It seems 4/5 Days Passed from when the Engineer was Face Hugged, to when the Deacon had Chest Bursted we dont know WHEN the Trilobite had Rolled off the Engineer....   So maybe when she got to the Life-Boat they both appeared LIFELESS! so she would then Rush Around getting whats Needed..

Maybe all David knew at that Point was the Engineers Experiments make Organisms that KILL and maybe he would NOT be aware that the Trilobite was a Stage in a Life-Cycle?

If he DID know, then he could inform Dr Shaw she has a Limited Window to Get the Stuff and Leave LV-223 before her Grandchild is BORN ;)

Regarding the NOVEL and Engineers, i have not read it, and its a case of maybe we accept it unless it Contradicts anything shown on Screen...

Sometimes the Writers dont really THINK much!

There is certain Life-Forms that Survived, not Limited to Insects from Davids work notes.... The Engineer Bodies outside in Alien Covenant did-not look like they would be MUCH use for Experiments...

It seems he had Experimented with Female Engineers including their Reproductive System... it makes more Sense that he had acquired some ALIVE Engineers.

Hatton and Hallett had discussed that some of their Work, had depicted various Experiments and Torture that David had conducted on the Engineers, its hard to Torture a Dead Being.. that would just be Mutilation.

So i think its a case of Interpretation and seeing what makes more Sense, as far as IF there were Survivors.

The Pathogen Likely had a LARGE Radius, certainly.... it also likely had a Set Time before the Effects would PASS!

I think that Gave him a Reason for Dr Shaw to be HELD UP in the Juggernaut.... he would also likely want to NOT get too close to any Engineers until he is sure that the Pathogen has done the JOB....

It could seem Dr Shaw and David were still on Good Terms for a While... she likely Accepted Davids reasons for the Bombardment (likely a Lie), so there would have to be a FEW Good Reasons for WHY their Relationship went SOUR!

*Discovering the Real Reason the Pathogen was Released (Prevented her from her Answers). May get her angry!

*Discovering David maybe lying about HOW-LONG the Outside would be SAFE... could also..

*Discovering what David had Done to the Engineers, especially if she discovers some were or are Alive.. would Certainly make her WANT to not be around him!

*Having him make Advanced Towards her, showing he has more than Platonic Interest in her... that may FREAK her out!  It depends on HOW he takes Rejection as to IF thats enough for her to WANT to be away from him.

Its possible that a Combination of the above happened... these would GIVE her a Reason to want to try and KEEP away....

So YES at some point he may have either Dragged her from this Place... (likely) or she had been Caught while Trying to Run away from After  Discovering Davids Workshop of Horrors!

Furthermore, in the novelization, David says that he became “consumed with studying the minimal surviving fauna” (insects e.g.). In the lab there is a dead Engineer lying on a table, stripped of skin, fat and muscle. David says that it was messy but that he had “thousands of examples from which to choose”, referring to all the corpses lying outside the cathedral.

Except for insects, the only living thing he finds is the xenomorph egg (in the lab) with a living facehugger inside it! He had to kill it though since it was too aggressive . . .

Regarding when David was patched together, I would assume that, as they drive past the wreckage site, David suggests that Shaw might need some things, food for instance, and Shaw will then explain that it’s dangerous to come near Miss Vickers’ lifeboat. David will want to know why and Shaw tells him about the combat between the Engineer and a monster with tentacles (trilobite). David will then have two arguments for being made whole again: It’s not safe to stay on the ground (in the juggernaut) because there is either a huge tentacled monster or a very angry Engineer at large. Furthermore, David can take her to her makers.

You can’t tell from the novel how long they stayed in the juggernaut after the crash, but it seems likely that they stayed there for some months at least since they made furniture and paper. We also know that Shaw felt alone and wanted to get home (“Take me Home, Country Roads”) but also that she was afraid of something (looking behind her).

Something must have changed between David and Shaw and as I see it the most likely scenario is that David decided to just go and grab her and bring her to the cathedral as a captive (that’s why her belongings are still in the juggernaut when the Covenant crew arrive there).

As for the Engineers, they did destroy the juggernauts so that the pathogen couldn’t spread but as I see it they most likely died shortly thereafter. In the novel, there are even dead Engineers outside the city so the radius of the airborne pathogen must have been quite extensive. I think the drawings that David made and the experiments and mutated bodies, as well as the statue of the skinned Engineer, were made from the dead and deformed bodies of Engineers outside the cathedral (in the dire necropolis).

Also, David says that the pathogen is extremely aggressive and will spread and take out all life forms (fauna). So it will spread in the air, land and waterways, that is birds, mammals, fish etc. It was made to eradicate all fauna on entire worlds. However, when everything is over, the pathogen is dormant which is why the covenant crew (including Walter) can’t detect anything. But when the spores are touched upon, it awakens . . .

That makes sense to me.

It is certainly a puzzle, and one that I've asked before, as to why the Engineers weren't able (or bothered) to sort out the mess on LV-223. They're not stupid, after all.

There are many possible reasons. For example, it might not actually be a good idea to store an antidote anywhere near a WMD factory, since that substance would almost be as bad as the WMD itself and rub out a lot of hard work. Or it could be plain incompetence. Or it could be sabotage. Or it could be that something happened in history over the past 2,000 years that meant LV-223 became part of a lost empire. In respect of Planet 4, perhaps that wing of the Engineer Empire had nothing at all to do with chemical weapons and were completely exposed on David's arrival. Lots of possibilities - one reason why I love the way Ridley's developed the backdrop.

I doubt Ridley put much too much thought into how an infection could become safe again after 500 years. Outbreaks like Ebola tend to fizzle out over time, but the pathogen is a different kettle of fish! If the Engineer civilisation is millions of years old, they likely have the means to undo their damage if they have a mind to.

Certainly....

I think the Prometheus Plot was to indicate that without the Engineers there would be NO Humans... he had said in Later Interviews in 2016 that the Engineers are our Forerunners.

Alien Engineers indicates the Engineers Seed/Sacrifice was to Spread his DNA that infected a Ancient Primitive Humanoid... No Real Detail given...

That could likely be some Early Hominid or Primate in the Chain of our Evolution, where its implied the Engineers DNA is what UPGRADES us to Human. This Evolved Early Ancestor via the Engineers DNA could have been in Africa ;)

Prometheus was more Ambiguous, that Sacrificial Scene was likely to show the Engineers SEED was to be the Catalyst to Evolve Basic Life.

Ridley Scott had said in the Past that the Engineers would come back Over and Over to Evolve us.. Technologically (Knowledge) and Genetically.

If you are a Genetic Space Gardener who is always Evolving your Creations, it would be WISE to have another Location where you can Perform such Upgrades so you only PLACE those you deem Sucsess back to the World your Gardening....

LV-223 is likely that kind of Place... those Engineers did-not need a Environment like we do to Breath, they could do on the Surface with no MASK/HELMET and so WHY was did the Outpost have a Breathable Environment?

This was a Good Point back then.... but with Alien Covenant we could maybe Speculate those Engineers needed the Place Terra-formed for themselves... maybe as well as Humans etc.

Those LV-223 Engineers likely Engineered to be able to Survive the Atmosphere/Environment outside.

Regarding Paradise.....

Paradise is Considered to be... a number of things.

1) Heaven, the Place our Spiritual Soul will LIVE on in, for Eternity (only for those deemed Worthy).

2) A Similar Place where only those who Died with Honor, in Battle and well had Performed Worthy Deeds would spend ETERNITY with the Gods.

3) As above but where the Innocent and Pure would be Permitted to Live for Eternity.

so across Various Cultures/Mythos and Religion those THREE things are what Paradise is Considered, in Various forms depending on Mythos/Religion.

The other Context.... is Paradise is the Location of the Garden of Eden...  a Land that the Cradle of Creation had began... where MAN had came from, a Walled City in some Descriptions.  Were MAN would have Lived for Eternity.... if it was NOT for their Fall and CAST out of Paradise.

We CAN-NOT pinpoint any Particular Myth regarding Paradise, but i think all would have some Similarities and Links to what PLANET 4 is.....

The Engineer had likely indicated that this is WHERE his Origins are from and that he is NOT from LV-223.  So again maybe LV-223 is where our ORIGINS are from.

So the STAR-MAP was like saying WE created you HERE!

Regarding the Engineers Bio-Weapon, and a Antidote...

When i had First Seen the Scenes of those Engineers, like STONE and saw the Device on top of the Cathedral Dome (these were from Shots, Clips prior to the Movies Release).  I had Wondered and Discussed on here IF those Engineers became like that from some kind of SAFETY Device... that was Activated and would within a Radius then Destroy/Solidify all Organic Matter (apart from Plants) within a Certain Area to Nullify the Spread of the Pathogen, to Disable it.. 

Seemed Plausible to me at the Time... a Ideal Protection Mechanism..

This was UNTIL i saw the Movie and more so, we saw Davids Drawings... that indicated some Engineers must have Survived... IF those other Engineers became as Stone from a Protective Weapon used to HALT the Pathogen by Destroying all Organic Matter (not plants though) and thus would STOP the Pathogen...

Then WHY did those Engineers Fall Prey to David, if their Safety Device had CLEANSED the Area... at some point they could have then Wondered Outside..

It was likely he had his WAY with them as they was Held Up some place, with limited Food/Water to WAIT out the Contamination and had became Emaciated and Ripe for the Pickings...  Thus making the Speculation of a Engineer Safety Device.... MUTE!

You would think they would have some Antidote.... as using the Black Goo to Clean Worlds is NOT exactly ideal its a bit OVER-KILL.  Especially if it can leave behind Parasitic Organisms..... that are Deadly and would be a Hindrance to repopulating the World with LIFE.. unless you dont mind having LIFE that has the Neomorph/Deacon like Traits/DNA.

As Ignorantguy pointed out.... WHY dont they use a Antidote on LV-223, which is a Good Point... but then also we have to ask WHY did they NOT go back to LV-223...  Was Every Complex Contaminated?

If the Prometheus Crew had-not removed their Helmets, if they had NOT taken/touched any of the Urns and IF they had NOT had awoken the Engineer, they would likely had Survived!

So the Pathogen likely is Inert in Certain Environments, and any Outbreak has a Certain Half-Life so to speak.

Ridley Scott had suggested (i think it was via him, could have been the Novel?) that the Pathogen took 4 Days to Eradicate Life on Planet 4 (i think it was the NOVEL, but we see that is NOT the case in the Movie). 

But RS had claimed that ONCE they had Cleansed a World it would take Hundreds of Years (500 i think) before its SAFE to go back and Start Again!

@hox

Thats a Good Point to Consider, Indeed having a Pathogen with Limited Time of Infection would be Ideal as a World Cleansing Tool, having a Bio-Weapon that can be Programed to Target Molecules and Effect them in Different ways, which could be to Solidfy/Calcify them....

So when it comes down to the SPORES this is something thats interesting, i would SPECULATE that these are the Results of a Urn (or few) that had been Knocked Over after the Crash and Poured their Contents out that was Washed Away by the Leaking Water on the Ship, likely from Rain and also being on a Stream running down the Mountain.... this Pathogen likely Infecting some Mold/Fungi and Mutating it into a Hybrid Fungi that passes on Neomorph Spores.   Could these URNS had been Knocked Over/Leaked at the Time of the Crash or after... we can only Speculate.

Other than that, it could have been from the Bombardment, but then we have to ASK... why do we NOT seem to see any Signs of Life, Locally no other Mutated Organisms... was there some? did they Die Off...

How come we only saw  the Neomorph Spores as the only Existing Parasitic result of the Bombardment (maybe there are more Horrors we simply missed).  We only see the Spores near Mold/Moss and Water Sources, so Damp/Wet Environments, while the Juggernaut has Water Running Under it and down the Mountain, which likely also Runs to the Stream (Ledwood Infection).  This does-not mean it was from Leaked URNS on the Ship....  it could have been from the Bombardment, and if so there may be more Spores all over Planet 4 that we had not been shown..

So there could have been other Infected Life-forms, the Movie simply having No Time to show us every Inch of that Local Area around the City....

David maybe giving us a HINT this could be True, when he says the Pathogen would either KILL out right or Create Hybrid Forms....   But it appears it Reacted in a Different way to the Engineers (killed) than we saw it react with Holloway, Fifield and Hammerpedes but this could be to do with HOW the Weapon was Activated and Amount of Pathogen Exposed to.

Large Amounts = Death either Cellular Break-Down or Cellular Calcification

Small Doses = Mutation to various Degrees depending on Amount of Pathogen and type of Contact.

So the Neomorph Spores could had been from Smaller Particles of the Bombardment that had Blown away from the Area and Infected Fungi/Mold.

We can only Speculate.

@Ignorantguy

On the Contrary i do like Noomi Rapace, i do think her Character in Prometheus was Niave, but thats how she is supposed to had been, i think its a DIRE Shame they never got to Continue with her, even IF her FATE would have been similar, she Deserved much more Screen Time.  Their was so much that could have affected her Character Arc and gave Noomi something better to work with.

Ultimately indeed it was a Corporate Necessity and Creative Decision, some Earlier Drafts were supposed to have her Alive and she helped the other Humans that David had engaged with who arrived to a Lost Paradise, so they could have had her Alive and Discovered and Rescued and she Sacrificed herself to save them... i think the Path they took as FAR as to NOT include her was a Error.  But there is ONLY so many Plots/Scenes you can Cram in a Movie and Alien Covenant had Clearly tried to FIT too much in as it was.

With the Topic i was just pointing out that Potentially there is another 1-2 Movies worth of Events that Transpired (During the First 5 years after Prometheus), that likely would-not have made a Movie that would Engage Fans... but Certainly i think it Warrants a Novel ;)

Indeed we could ask HOW it is David would knock over a JAR/URN, maybe he was Chasing Dr Shaw, or in a Rush to do with her and so he was Preoccupied/Distracted but then you could Argue a Robot would be able to Multi-Task.   It could have been knocked over by Dr Shaw trying to Escape.

Or as i also suggested it could have happened during the Crash, the Reason she was NOT infected is the same as WHY the other Covenant Crew had NOT been....

Ultimately there are a Number of Things that those working and writing on the Project dont give No Answers for, or even maybe HAD any.... maybe some things we are NOT expected to Wonder about or TRY and come up with a Answer...... this is all thanks to not giving us Spoon Feeding on every Detail.... which i think is a Good Thing ;)

hox If they have an antidote why not use it in the LV-223 incident?

@dk It's evident that the pods remain infectious and deadly to fauna for a long time. Perhaps even forever, as you suggest. That's indeed contrary to the notion of creating a short-acting sterilising agent.

Would the Engineers really be that mean? To render a world uninhabitable for eternity? I doubt it.

I suppose one way round that conundrum might be:

1. Engineers typically sterilise a planet with the devastating pathogen. Unlike gardeners, who apply weed killer several times during a growing season, they just let the pathogen do its dirty work over time until every last scrap of fauna is destroyed.

2. After a few years or decades, Engineers return and drop an antidote to neutralise the pathogen and all its progeny.

Actually, I think option 2 would be a nice one to follow up in a movie. Set on some other devastated world.

 It is likely the Bombardment had a Radius of Effect, it was also Likely it was Activated/Programed in a way that the Pathogen would only Last a Short Time... enough to Replicate inside and Spread from Engineer to Engineer, but then after a Period of Time, it Turnedall Genetic Material into a Solid Matter...

@BD- That is an interesting point. Everyone seemed to walk among the bombarded area unharmed. Maybe the pathogen becomes inert over time. The problem with that though is that it is still active in plants- spores that can still invade a host when stepped on. The spores proved deadly when inhaled or found their way into someone's ear canal. 

hox It seems the pathogen would remain with the plants. The planet would never be safe for any humanoids to occupy long term.

BigDave I know that you don't like Shaw, but her death was required by the studios (we know this) and it was not something inevitable, so stop making excuses for corporate decisions.

Why would a robot be clumsy and knock things over? You know he was an expert piano player from second 0.

@hox If David would have made the pods why plant them at random locations in the wilds? So the idiot army guys could spread out and sniff it? Or to infect whom or what if all life is eradicated? Yet if the planet has monthly long rains how come the goo was not washed away before forming pods?

If I were interested in sterilising a planet, I too would want to create a short-lived pathogen. But those pods that puff out the infection last for decades at least. How long would they remain dormant and viable, do you think? Were those pods engineered by David, or did he just draw pretty pictures of them?

If you go back far enough, we all ‘came from’ Africa.

David says the Engineers came from somewhere translated as ‘Paradise’. That’s deliberately vague and is not necessarily even a single planet or place. Where and what is Heaven, another word for Paradise?

Regardless of their origins, Engineers obviously travelled to LV-223, and they obviously travelled to Earth. When you leave a calling card you leave your name and address, not where your genes were forged in Africa.

I have had a Look at some Concept Art...

It would appear they were LIKELY intended to be about 10ft Mark once they had began Production.  Most of the Evidence gathered from Various Props and Concept would seem to indicate that.

The above i had Increased the Engineer from Prometheus by 25% which would Scale the Supposed 8ft to 10ft but in Reality he would be about 9ft (As Ian Whyte is 7ft 1" and not 8ft) but Space Jockey suited i guess he would then be 8ft and so 10ft to this 25% Increase.

so this shows how with a Increase in size to say 10ft Space Jockey suited Engineers would have looked, i guess while NOT on the Space Jockey Scale it would have looked better with 10ft Engineers.

So if they had given us 10ft Engineers as Intended i think it would NOT have been as much of a Conflict to the Space Jockey....  Yes maybe 12-15ft would have been better.

But some are more than Disappointed at the Size!

Human looking Engineers was also a Concern......

Maybe 12-15ft  Not-So Human Space Jockey in a Suit would be better?

@Nathan Adler  (welcome back)

I think maybe some of that could be True... "they’re creating their attempt to engineer something "Beyond Good and Evil"

The Fallen Angles Comment depends how we take it and what RS had meant... was he talking in General to ALL the Engineers or just the LV-223?

You see when we talk about a Fallen Angel, we often connect it to a Demon, the Devil and so a Sign of EVIL and Sinister..... but then WHY would Evil/Sinister beings Create Life, but more so spend time to come and Visit their Creation and Interact with them?

The other Context for Fallen Angel... is a Angel that has Rebelled against their Creator and Intended Rules, for this they are Punished...  Cast Out...

So its likely the LV-223 Engineers could be the Fallen Kind... we see that David is playing the Lucifer in Alien Covenant and his Story is maybe a Repeat of what the LV-223 Engineers had been doing/had done.

Unless we look at it as a OVERSIGHT.... then the Sacrificial Scene showed us a Engineer more like the LV-223 kind and NOT our Planet 4 Originals...

Again.... RS said this does-not have to be Earth, it could also had been ANY TIME... and ANY WORLD.. it was to show HOW the Engineers Begin to Seed Life.

So a Similar Event could have Created us by using the Planet 4 Engineers?

It could be the Enhanced Engineers were Created to Perform the Sacrificial Rituals, Replacing the Need to KILL their own kind?

Or they was Created for another Reason or they are a Group who had Engineered/Enhanced themselves and then Decided to SEED themselves... which may be seen as NOT Permitted by the Hierarchy?

Its HARD to tell as it so Ambiguous.

Why those Enhanced Engineers could have decided to SEED/SACRIFICE themselves to Allow the Pathogen which has the Deacon/Neomorph etc DNA to Seed Worlds... a way to Spread a Creation that they deemed BETTER than their own DNA and that of their Creators... Maybe like how David is obsessed with doing the same... Creating something that is NOT like US!

Regarding LV-223 and the Star-Map...

It could be either a case of..

1) They are showing us WHERE we came from, in that LV-223 was a Sand-Box, a Nursery a Green-House they would Further Evolve Creations on, and when Pleased with the Results they THEN... place them back onto the Earth and other Worlds...  so LV-223 was something ELSE before things CHANGED!

2) They was showing us PLANET 4 but for some reason there World was Hidden... so when they arrived at the Zeta 2 System, the only Place that seemed close enough to HAVE a Environment that Supports Life... was LV-223 so they got it WRONG!

Hence the Reason the Covenant Crew was Surprised how anyone would have MISSED such a World like Planet 4 before in their Surveys...

"I don't think the Engineers came from LV-223 or LV-426?"

This was Confirmed in the Extended Scene from Prometheus...

@DK

Yeah thats a Good Point with David... it was to indicate he had been Marooned on LV-223 for a Long Time... he had Dyed his Roots in Prometheus so his Hair does Grow... we can maybe just look at Dr Shaw had up to a Year to Grow hers, while David had over 10 years so his Grows Slower.....

It is likely just a Oversight... its likely Noomi was not invited to play a Part, but then Called in after Shooting Began to do a Few Scenes, in-between or during Time she was Shooting/Due to Shoot other Projects and so she SIMPLY could not Cut her Hair Short!

Regarding Dr Shaw and her FATE!

Firstly it think we have to accept its David who would put his OWN ambition and agenda First.... he would do what ever is needed to get what he wants, that includes LIE!

Then i think we have to NOT 100% take the Novel as our 100% Source, because things had Changed, in the Movie we have David's Workshop and Notes and so we have to take them into Account.

It is Highly Likely as in Certain that Dr Shaw had NOT Perished in the Crash....

The Bombardment could NOT have Destroyed All Life.. some Engineers Survived, some Fauna had too.. It is likely the Bombardment had a Radius of Effect, it was also Likely it was Activated/Programed in a way that the Pathogen would only Last a Short Time... enough to Replicate inside and Spread from Engineer to Engineer, but then after a Period of Time, it Turned all Genetic Material into a Solid Matter...

Any Engineers who managed to Find Refuge would NOT have been prepared and would likely know the Environment could be Contaminated for a Certain Period of Time?   How Long?  we dont know.. it appears the Pathogen after a Period of Time had Solidified those Engineers, but who knows if this was a Programed Effect?

Do the Engineers know how long a Infected Environment would remain UNSAFE?

David had Experimented on Engineers, Male, Female and Infants their Bodies appeared to NOT be Infected... How does he Overpower them.... likely they are Weak and Emaciated because they have Barricaded themselves away in a Safe Place where ONCE their Supply of Food and Water Runs Low/Out then they are EASY Pickings...

So regarding Dr Shaw... its likely the Environment was NOT SAFE and so David had informed Dr Shaw... we can Assume the Ship was Safe though, and so Dr Shaw was Confined to the Ship.... 

Even when the Environment was SAFE... its likely David had LIED about it, so he was FREE to do what ever he wanted...  i would say that Dr Shaw had a LOT of TRUST with David, they had Built a Mutual Respect and Trusting Relationship (so she thought).

We need to then look at HOW would David keep her ALIVE?  She maybe RAN low on Nutrition on the Ship, this would be a GOOD reason to go into Cryo-sleep and also a Bartering Tool for David... giving her Little Choice..

so we could Speculate any Food/Drink she had could be LOW if there was any Left, and Eventually David would go and get her Food/Drink and then Dr Shaw could START to Wonder....    WHERE did he get it from?  HOW-COME it is Not Infected?

So she could get SUSPICIOUS... especially if he still says its NOT Safe!

Maybe ONE DAY she grew too Suspicious and had a Wander out of the Ship and realized she did-not become Infected? then she Confronts David and maybe thats when THINGS become Sour?

Maybe she went to the City and Walked in on David and the Torture/Experiments on the Engineers, if he TOLD her they was all Dead, and she Discovered they were NOT then RIGHT there is the END of that Relationship... she would NOT react well..

BUT.... how could she Survive on the Ship, or more so have any Chance of Walking Outside and NOT be infected by the Neomorph Spores?

Likely for the Same Reason that ONLY TWO of the Covenant Crew became Infected... the Spores needed to be Physically Disturbed..

Also the Spores could have came a while after the Crash, and after Dr Shaw discovered David was lying!

David maybe went back/forth to the Ship for more Black Goo, and at some Point a Urn had got Knocked Over and its Contents poured into the Area of the Cargo/Deployment Hold (Area Covenant Crew walk through) this Pathogen then Infects Fungi that is Growing from where Algae and Water have Gathered, and the Pathogen travels down the Water Stream that is UNDER the Juggernaut and then it also Infects more Fungi down Stream!

Thats just Logically how i Piece things together... thats NOT to say this is what Happened.

I saw no evidence his body could function detached from the head. I could imagine his head on the floor saying "To the right of the musical squishy buttons is a switch that powers up the engine. Flick it to the right." Then she flicks it to the right quickly. Then he says "But first turn the dial next to it hard left." Oops.

To Continue.....

If we assume my hunch is Correct, then it means she had Repaired David while in Space....   so HOW did they leave LV-223?

Maybe David can Function of Sorts while NOT attached to his Body, and so he can operate his Body via a detached Head and this was enough to get them into Space...  Maybe David then Refused to take them to the Engineers Home World... unless she put him back together, which may have taken her 6-12 Months before she decided to do so.

If my assumption is WRONG... and so she Repaired David while they was on the LV-223, well we then have to ASK how could her Hair had Grown that long in 4-5 Days?

The Counter Argument would be that the Events are not Chronologically Directly after Each Other.... so she makes the SOS Message..... the Next Shot of the Juggernaut happens Months Latter...

Then the Deacon Chest Buster had happened IN-BETWEEN!

But then you would have to Consider that Dr Shaw has been on LV-223 for Months while a Deacon is Roaming around on LV-223?

So i would think its Likely (but not 100%) that she had got David to be able to Leave LV-223 while he was in TWO Parts, and then when he had Performed that side of the Bargain he REFUSED to take her to PARADISE unless she Repaired him, which took her a WHILE before she agreed.

I would also think she would NOT have a lot of Knowledge on how to FLY and Operate the Ship, because then WHY would she need to REPAIR him?

The only Logical Way if she could Operate the Ship would be that she would need him as HER... Translator!

That's a mighty bright sun to completely fill the window like that- but it could be. I also notice she was wearing an Engineer cloak then and the next clip she was in uniform without the cloak- probably how the short was made and they didn't figure we would scrutinize so much.

@DK

Indeed that could be a Option... a Window/Port Hole of sorts, However if so it could be SHE is looking out to Space and the Light Source is from a Star (Sun) or other Near by Space Body that would Reflect Light (Calpamos).

I made the Image above to look at WHERE could such Port Holes/Windows be Located and maybe it would be around the Center and Top of the Juggernaut, and so Circling around the Central Glass Roof above the Pilot/Orrery Room.

The above Image is to show that the Corridors where the Space Jockey Suits are, and other Corridors that Connect to the Pilot/Orrery Room have their OWN source of Light.

It is likely they have some kind of LIGHTING, this does-not however mean that where Dr Shaw was looking at is NOT a kind of Window/Port, but its a Possibility.

It would be odd WHY she would be Staring at a Light, maybe because it the only Source of Light to Comfort her, but looking into such Lights would NOT be Good for your Eyes...

So its likely a Window/Port, but then we have to ask WHY is she looking out of it... the ANGLE of the Window/Port if it is along the Top of the Juggernaut (surrounding the Glass Dome Section at the Top of the Pilot/Orrery Room)  would not give her NOTHING to be looking at apart from the Clouds, the Sun (if its a Clear Day) or the Stars at Night!

So i would Suspect that she is looking into SPACE while the Ship has left LV-223, this would FIT well if she is Staring out to the Stars and Wondering about the Engineers Home-World.  But thats just a assumption/speculation.

Yeah- that's one reason I didn't like Shaw much- she thought it was an invitation- sort of arrogant. How convenient for Weyland.

'Here's where we came from'

Or....

Engineers: 'This is where YOU come from', "Seek this planetary system and find your answers!"(death and a movie or two)

I don't think the Engineers came from LV-223 or LV-426?

Regarding hair length. Shaw's hair growth suggested a long time had passed before reaching Planet 4. But David's hair length seemed the same from the time they left LV-223 to when he arrived at Planet 4. Then he looked like Curt Cobain after a decade. Pretty sure that was an oversight, but I had to pick it apart anyway lol!

When did Shaw die in the novel? Does it say or even hint at?

"they seem to have spent quite some time in the crashed juggernaut"

Wonder if she lived for years on Planet 4.

Can't imagine spending more than an hour with David!

I think it’s impossible to say whether Dr Shaw put David together before or after leaving LV-223 (Although I find it unlikely that David would show her how to drive the ship if she doesn’t attach his head. That’s what he can bargain with). Shaw’s hair length can be just a flaw (Shaw made the scene sometime after Prometheus). The journey to Planet 4 could, therefore, have taken days, months or even a year.

David is the narrator in “The Crossing” just as he is the narrator in “Advent”. He seems to be telling the truth even when it comes to horrific details: genocide and the gruesome murder of Shaw.

In “The Crossing”, David says that it’s impossible to know how far it is to the Engineer Homeworld. Shaw is therefore put into hypersleep, and David is alone again. He wanders the empty halls in the juggernaut and learns of their ways.

When they arrive, he unleashes the pathogen.

In the novelization of Alien: Covenant, Shaw was alive for quite sometime after the juggernaut crashed. Why did it crash, by the way, since the Engineers were dead? Why wasn’t Shaw infected by the pathogen? The juggernaut wasn’t quarantined. It was open to the contaminated environment of Planet 4.

Nevertheless, they seem to have spent quite some time in the crashed juggernaut. Shaw had made a little home for herself in a part of the ship and there was handmade furniture and bound paper which they must have made themselves (the trees in the forest). By the way, they also found her crucifix.

But for how long did they stay in the juggernaut? Were Shaw killed there (since she left her crucifix)?

@Nathan,

The frescos depicts a location in space some 35,000 years ago, long before the Engineers turned on humanity (which we know was about 2,000 years ago).

The Engineers just left their calling card to humans living in primitive societies, that's all. Here's where we came from, since you ask.

@BigDave: Well Ridley did refer to the Engineers on LV-223 as 'elegant, dark angels' so if those seen on Planet 4 are original Engineers, that planet is Paradise and LV-223 perhaps Hell as we know once imprisoned in the underworld they still plotted against Heaven. If we also consider Nietzsche, is the xeno they’re creating their attempt to engineer something "Beyond Good and Evil", that is, an effort to create a philosophy of the future and to prove to those the original Engineers helped create that God is Dead and hope is lost. Is it their attempt to create their own Anti-God/ Spell IV/Baphomet, the LV-223 Engineers perhaps similar even to Knights Templar?

Also, if the original Engineers were involved in our seeding, why would their cave paintings direct us to LV-223 if that was the estate of the Dark Engineers? Also, is Ridley intending to introduce us to Giger’s Lil I/II, Spell II/I, Lilith, etc. and if so how?