The Engineers (Sub Creation)

BigDave Yes there could be the reveal that David goes back in time and creates the Bible stories and every myth based on his exploits, while also creating the human race, his sheep.

Don't fall however to the Hollywood cliches, the notion of Over-man has nothing to do with the body, it is related to overcoming nihilism, which is another term requiring an explanation.

Oh NO!  not that kind of Curveball!

In all Fairness you really cant rule out more Curve-balls that will UPSET the Fans!  The Space Jockey as David or one of his Creations?   Who knows what RS would have given us...  He had indicated that by the END of the Prequels we arrive at WHO is in the Chair on the Derelict and it was said in a way that seems to indicate he knows who is behind it, and we have seen them (one who Orchestrates it) and his comments could indicate its not as Obvious as a Engineer.

"the notion of Over-man has nothing to do with the body"

Indeed i think we can look at the Übermensch as not meaning Super-Human aka Human Enhancement as far as Physically/Genetically.  So we could look at it as in some other ways that Zarathustra covers.. In that the concept of having to have Gods and a Soul to counter our Meaningless Life...  if i recall right one Drafts or a Comment by someone working on Alien Covenant had indicated the Engineers got upset because we had invented the Notion of a Soul and a Route to Immortality/Afterlife.   so its interesting to look at the Nihilism connection... this is a Realization that Weyland had upon his Death "There is Nothing"

Maybe aspects of Nietzsche as far as his Works and Ideas could be applied to the PLOT?  I am not Expert on his Works, something i will have to do a bit more Research and reading into.

The context i mainly using in regards to Übermensch is the pursuit to Advance yourself, but indeed its interesting to consider this as not only a Genetic Evolution/Goal but a Spiritual/Philosophical one.

By Curveball...

I think we are seeing a repeating Process of Sub-Creation.  That had not Started with the Engineers and maybe does-not End with David.

So by that i mean Revelations could come about that the Higher Level of Creation above the Engineers could come back to be via A.I or indeed a None-Biological Being/Race (Machine if you would).  Not David though lol

Or that maybe the Engineers (even Planet 4) are a Sub-Creation by another Ancient Ancestor of Mankind... meaning they CAME FROM US... or our Ancestors.

For example this is Interesting on the Earlier Concept work for the Cathedral Dome.... TWO Concepts by TWO different Artists.

Maybe you're right. Some of this stuff was already discussed after Prometheus (Annunaki vs Iggigi, war of the gods, creation of men to do the work of the Igiggi etc.). Sounds reasonable. More so since Prometheus (=Lucifer/Satan) indicated, that there is a tension between two fractions: Zeus vs Prometheus or God vs Luciter/Satan. I hope that he will give the Engineers back some of their majestic appearance - which they lost in my mind in AC (being killed of like that without any form of defense was dissapointing to me).

However this might be a good opportunity: you said again and again, that RS stated the Planet 4 Engineers were the Originals. Please show me the source. I've googled it and this Comment by RS was nowhere to be found! This seems like one of the most crucial comments regarding the Engineer-backstory so please show me where he said that. I'd like to find out more.

Our main admin Chris was formally invited by 20th Century Fox to the premiere of Alien: Covenant. At the premiere, he got to meet Ridley Scott and asked him some questions regarding the film. He asked him about Planet 4 inhabitants and Ridley told him that they were simply the civilians of the Engineer race while the ones from Prometheus were militant types (he didn't publish the interview anywhere for some unknown reason, he just mentioned that in one of my threads). 

As far as the planet 4 Engineers being the originals, I think that was mentioned in the novelization of the film. 

Nevertheless, comparing both factions side by side might imply that Planet 4 Engineers were simply just civilians, the original, pure race, thus why they appeared human-like (their planet is identical to Earth btw). And the Prometheus ones were just enhanced soldiers, thus the whiter skin, blacker eyes, and enormous strength.

There is one interesting little detail, when Daniels, David, Tennessee, and Lope escaped from the planet 4, in the next shot of Covenant orbiting the planet some Engineer letters are visible on the surface.

"Planet 4 inhabitants and Ridley told him that they were simply the civilians of the Engineer race while the ones from Prometheus were militant types"

Yeah i have heard RS call them Military a few times, i dont think this adds up but thats for another Debate. Thats because when i look at the overall clues and the Ships i come to the Conclusion they are Seeding Ships.

I will add as far as Original and Military then again we could consider the LV-223 kind are Enhanced, so kind of like a Cross between Replicants and Universal Solider if you would ;)

I am having trouble finding a Source for what RS had said.

I have to try and dig it up.... but he had said those Engineers in Alien Covenant are the Original Engineers, he also had implied that the Engineers are a Civilization and not a RACE.. again i cant seem to Find a Source...

Now did it just Imagine it lol

@Dark Nebula

Nice Catch i can only make out the E the other one below is hard as its not full but could be Engineer Letter Q or R

First of all, it’s 2000 years between the Engineer we meet in Prometheus and the Engineers we have a brief view upon in AC. What has happened during that time? What has evolution executed? Have the Engineers changed physically and psychologically? Have they changed in their way of viewing the world and life?

We know there are different races on Earth who look differently, have different customs. traditions and religions. But we also know that we strive to perfect ourselves, get rid of disease, longevity etc.

Are the Engineers we encounter on LV-223 genetically enhanced or perhaps made in a laboratory in order to perform certain tasks? Or are they just another race and separated by 2000 years between the ones we briefly encounter in AC?

Humanity consists of individuals who are different. They are therefore suited for different tasks: some are strong, some are fast, some are intelligent, some have empathy etc

I think the Engineers on LV-223 were just militaries (we're in the army now :) ) and scientists in their service. The task was to wipe out humanity since we didn't reach the wishes that "the gardeners of space" had hoped for.

The Engineers had left all human strife behind a long time ago. They had understood the folly . . .

Pretty sure RS described the Engineers as a civilization in the commentary of AC when he was describing the hall of heads.

As far as the Planet 4 Engineers being the originals again, it was mentioned by David in the novelization.

"...with nothing to occupy myself other than the compiling of a simple collection, I began to do a bit of genetic experimentation of my own. Simple cross-breeding, hybridizing, what have you. I like to think that the ill fate inhabitants of this world, the original Engineers, would gaze on my work with approval."

Kudos to this topic: http://www.alien-covenant.com/topic/45718

Dark Nebula "the ill fate inhabitants" , well David would have snapped a neck right there.

@Chli

Certainly there are various reasons for the Differences, the PLOT does indicate the Engineers Seed Many Worlds, Ridley Scott saying some Engineers return to Planet 4 as they periodically come back.  So there would be others out there the Question is are these Guys Seeding Worlds, Teaching Creations Knowledge or coming back from a Holocaust/Genocide of Worlds?

We have to Consider them in relation to God Mythos and so they would Certainly have SET Rules/Ways of Life that their Civilizations would Adhere too both Engineers and other Humanoids.

We could Ponder if those Worlds are KEPT a Certain way, and are Nurtured/Taught to Live a Certain way, we dont know how Long the Engineers Spend between Visits but it could be Hundreds of Years, if its Thousands then the Potential is there for some Worlds to Decide to LIVE differently than they had been Created for.

This Certainly would Warrant the Hierarchy to go and change their Ways and to have a LAST RESORT.

We could also Wonder if other ENGINEER Worlds through-out the Galaxy all SING/DANCE to the Same Tune, so they could have Conflicts with Each other... Certainly could have happened in the Past... and for the Hierarchy then the Creation of a Military to Put things in Order would be IDEAL.

I think we need to LOOK at the Differences, and then LOOK at the Engineers as being a Race who like their Genetic Engineering and then LOOK at Mankind in this Context!

There has been a number of Sci-Fi about the Creation of Super-Human's and Super-Soldiers. It was something that the Nazi's had planned to do. 

If you was a Government/Country who wanted the Edge over your opponents and your Scientist could Genetically Alter Humans to make them 2-3 X Faster/Agile, 4-5 X Stronger, have them Feel NO Pain or Emotion. Have their Senses Improved to like 5X better.

Then on the Battlefield you would have a Advantage of Sorts based on LIKE-LIKE (Similar Armed Humans vs Super-Soldiers).

This would be similar to the Replicants being used like the Universal Soldiers... and so when looking at the LV-223 Engineers we could PONDER if thats what they are...  Enhanced Engineers for a Purpose.

A Problem with Creating Such Group would be IF they realize they are SUPERIOR and become Sentient, you would want some Safe-Guards like a ability to Control them, make sure they CANT Procreate etc.

I think maybe this could be somewhat is up with our LV-223 Engineers.

Something to CONSIDER... is that our Sacrificial Engineer appeared to look the Same.  And so this is where we could WONDER... is this another Purpose of those Enhanced Engineers?  or had those Enhanced Engineers decided to Sub-Create their own Creation (Mankind).

The Differences with the Engineers, and Ridley Scott then saying those on Planet 4 are the Originals does change things a bit.

IF the Elders Scene was Kept and RS never made any comment about those on Planet 4 being Originals, then we would be Drawn to those Planet 4 Engineers as being a Hybrid or Sub-Creation. It would indicate the Prometheus Engineers are Superior and there is NO difference between Sacrificial Engineer and LV-223 Ones.

IF the Planet 4 Engineers had similar Eyes and Marbled Skin as the Prometheus Engineers, then we would consider all the Engineers to be Superior and the LV-223 kind are just more Military Trained.

BUT... they are Different and if we take Ridley Scotts comments (have to dig them up) then it implies that the Prometheus Engineers are a Version that they had Genetically Enhanced, that they Genetically Engineered (from Embryo's) and so similar to Replicants... or that a Group of Engineers had decided to Enhance themselves.

I think in these cases, if we look at the Real Implications of Genetically Engineering/Enhancing Humans for a Purpose or a Group of Humans begin to Genetically Engineer/Enhance themselves....  then their is the Potential for the Enhanced Humans to see themselves as Superior and should be PLACED at the Higher Level than NORMAL Humans... what Massive Implications this could have?

A Part of me is drawn to maybe this being the WOLF and how they renounced their Ways.. (Genetic Engineering or at least a Certain Aspect of trying to Perfect something).

We have to remember the ship piloted by David was welcomed warmly by the planet 4 Engineers. So I believe if the LV223 Engineers were soldiers, they were their soldiers. Not seen as enemies on planet 4. What was with all the ships from the underground hangar, under the plaza? Were they grounded there following a peace treaty, were they for defense?

I guess only David could tell us more about the Engineers.

Certainly they are some Very Valid points, they are things i have discussed before and what kind of draws me to thinking those SHIPS are NOT Military.

But thats maybe for another Topic ;)

But Planet 4 does show us those Engineers are welcoming the Ship back, they seem of NO Concern about the Ship and what it can Carry, which means maybe they are Very Confident that NO-ONE would be able to Hijack their Ships....  and No Concerns that any of their Own kind would Turn Up and USE the Bio-Weapon on them.

So this would indeed imply that as FAR as they are aware there has NEVER been any Rebellion/War against another Faction or if ONE  had happened it is Considered LONG over and so No Concerns.

But there could be other Reasons......

something to Consider is that what we have is Planet 4 seems to have ONLY the One City where these Engineers all Choose (or maybe dont) to Stay, a Single City that at its CENTER they have a HANGER for their Military Ships.

The Engineers in Prometheus was Considered to be NOT so Stupid to Store/Experiment with the Black Goo on their Home-World and so what does that mean for the Ships in the Hanger, are they ONLY Permitted to Land if they have NO Bio-Weapons on board?

Another Question would be if these are GARDENERS of Space then where would they Store the SEEDING SHIP?

Regarding the Hanger and Juggernauts as these were shown via a Deleted Scene, it could be Considered that they MAY-NOT be Canon, in that maybe we have to Accept the Hanger only allows for ONE ship?  But then the Deleted Scene could apply as it Certainly would have been Part of the Original Idea.

It was indicated (i cant remember who by, i think in the Novel?) that the Ships had been Grounded Following the Bombardment as a Safety Procedure.  So that Nothing could TAKE-OFF (likely to Spread the Infection).  While going OFF-TOPIC... is it a case of Permanently or a Set Time and if so could this be Overwrote as far as Protocols. 

I would say its more Logical that the Scorpion-Ship had something to do with the Control and Once this was Incapacitated it Rendered the other Ships Useless.

"I guess only David could tell us more about the Engineers"

There is quite a lot that we DONT-KNOW and that could be Explored, i hope we get to Discover more about them.

Who knows what Explanation if Any that are given to the Differences, there could be Many Different kinds of Engineers. Indeed Ridley Scott had said more than ONCE that those LV-223 are the like the Military, but years ago he also said this in regards to them, indicating the Elders/Sacrificial Scene are the Space Gardener Variety (yet they all looked the Same).

Back to the OT and the Differences, i think maybe as the Prometheus Engineers (well Sacrificial) lacked any Nipples and they look different, to our Planet 4 ones who have Females and Infants... then i think it is Plausible that those Prometheus Engineers are a Enhanced Variant, they could be CLONED Soldiers, or Engineered like the Replicants were.

I had often wondered why David did not just get another ship, repair it & leave Planet 4. He chose to stay there & do his experiments.  I guess if he had even been able to repair a ship, where would he go?  After Weyland's death, he no longer had a connection to anyone, or anywhere?  He was then able to build his Planet 4 crazy family!  HAHA!!

Thanks again for another great topic Big Dave!

I think in context to WHY would David remain on Planet 4, this was a Subject of a few Debates in 2017, it was Speculated he had stayed to LURE in more Hosts... but if there was any Luring it was a attempt to GET away from this place... well likely.

The Movie only showed us the Incoming Juggernaut that David and Dr Shaw were on, that was Intercepted by the Mother/Scorpion Juggernaut.   Then David Unleashed the Bombardment, we saw the Engineers suffering the Effects of the Bombardment and that was it.

We later saw the Juggernaught Crashed on the Mountain with NO Explanation.

What became of the other Docking Ship was a Mystery but it was in  the Movie just easy to miss...

It could be seen in One Shot, Crashed in the Background and we also had Concept Artist Wayne Haag have a Conversation about it and they said the TWO Ships has a Dust Up (Confrontation) and so thats HOW both of them Crashed.

So we could Speculate this Left David Stranded, but the Deleted Scene did show the Hanger had other Engineer Juggernauts.  It was explained in the Novel that after the Bombardment those Ships were Disabled in order to PREVENT any Infection Leaving this World.

Wayne Haag (i think it was) had referred to the Docking Ship as some kind of Border Control.  So a likely Explanation is as a Safe-Guard the Scorpion/Mother Docking Ship would likely have some Control over the Ships, so maybe once this Ship was Damaged it would Automatically Disable the other Ships.

I would assume the Docking Ship had something to do with WHY it is David cant use any other Ships, because i FEEL he could surely Figure in 10 years a way around their Systems to Re-Enable the Ships....  But if the Docking Ship is the Control/Safe-Guard and its Systems Suffered Damage then its Logical to Assume that David simply CANT repair what ever was Damaged.

If David had been able to Repair a Ship then where would he GO?  I think it depended on his Agenda.. if it was to Destroy then he would aim to either Increase the Number of his Xenomorph Eggs, or simply go and Bombard Earth, this would depend IF the other Ships had any Black Goo, i think that would be a SILLY move for the Engineers.

So i assume if David could get another Ship he would have gone to LV-223 to Experiment with his Xenomorph and to Load Up more Black Goo, well in my Opinion..

But in Context to the OT...

We have to Wonder does only the Enhanced Prometheus Engineers have the USE of the Juggernauts?

We have to also ask if this Place is Considered the Engineers Home-World in General (likely One of Many) then where is the Pebble Like Seeding Ships from Prometheus?

The Engineers abandoned these and Seeding and Converted to Mass Genocide?

Or could it be that the Juggernauts had replaced the Seeding Pebble Ships for a Manner of Tasks?

They could still use those Pebble Ships as other could be throughout the Galaxy we cant Assume the Engineers only have a role/visit or use a Handful of Worlds.

"There is one interesting little detail, when Daniels, David, Tennessee, and Lope escaped from the planet 4, in the next shot of Covenant orbiting the planet some Engineer letters are visible on the surface."

Actually I discovered this some time ago.

https://www.alien-covenant.com/topic/46374

I don't think these are letters but big structures. What their purpose might me one can only speculate. It proves

What became of the other Docking Ship was a Mystery but it was in  the Movie just easy to miss...

Wayne Haag's take is new to me.

I thought maybe there was a connection with the invisible shield somehow with the Docking Ship . When the goo broke through, maybe it disrupted the ship to where it lost its way and crashed. For the Juggernaut, maybe David just didn't know how to land it. 

"David just didn't know how to land it. "

Or maybe Shaw realized what David was doing and attempted to take control of the juggernaut?(women drivers!)

I think the change in the Engineers was made for casting reasons...Having a million buff dudes running around would look silly?

Having them look more like us makes it MUCH easier for him to cast future roles for them. Might get a famous actor to play a critical role as a Engineer? Not many actors could play a Prometheus Engineer!

Well indeed DK it appeared the Goo had hit some kind of Shield... like a Invisible DOME!

If we accept this, well it was-not Very Good at Keeping the GOO out... then maybe the Engineers did-not expect to ever be Bombarded by their own Bio-Weapon.

I think if we accept the DOME/Shield then in Context to Paradise i think this could be another CLUE we are looking at maybe a Interpretation of what the BIBLICAL Paradise was...

A Walled City where the Garden of Eden is Located and the Cradle of Civilization...

Have you ever seen UNDER THE DOME?

I think if we look at those Engineers being the Genetic Stock, that from them is where WE came from and other Worlds, it was indicated that WE was Scheduled for Destruction because we simply WOULD-NOT follow the Engineers Ways that was intended for us...

Differences of Religion, Culture can cause Conflict, Controlling a Civilization to Follow a Certain Intended Way/Culture that is Passed On, Doctrined towards us, this seems the Engineers Intention.

So from Planet 4 perspective, if you CONTAIN your Society in ONE Place you can Watch Over and Maintain they LIVE  by the Rules/Rituals and Culture of the Hierarchy/Elders.

So from this POV.... having some Barrier to Contain the Engineers within a Certain Location would make Planet 4 well that City a Walled City as Paradise was described as.

Regarding the Docking Ship indeed for Some Reason it had Crashed, along with the Juggernaut.  Some kind of TUSSLE may have happened that lead to BOTH of the Ships Crashing.

@MonsterZero

Maybe... when i First saw those Planet 4 Engineers i wondered if it was a Oversight, and that for only a Short Scene it was Easier and Cheaper to NOT make them look like the LV-223 Engineers.  As it was a Short Scene we would NOT notice?

However... we ONLY see the Engineers FACE/HEAD and Hands, and so it would NOT take a lot more time to Paint them more PALE like our Engineers in Prometheus.  It would also NOT cost much to have Black Sclera Contact Lenses put in.

This Level of Make Up as above for Head/Neck and Hands would NOT have taken much Longer, and the Contacts, and WHILE they may lack the Glossy Look of our Prometheus Engineers Still, it would have been much less of a OVERSIGHT!

So i found this ODD.....  that was until RS had said those Planet 4 Engineers are the Originals...

Was this a Response to the LAZY Budget Cutting they did?

Or was this Difference Intentional?

We need to go back to what he said after Prometheus... he DID-NOT want to meet GOD in the First Movie (part a response to the Deleted Elder Scene) so our Prometheus Engineers are NOT the Gods...   He then said that Dr Shaw and David would go to the Planet of the Engineers and meet these beings who are NOT Gods in the Traditional Sense.

So its likely that the Idea was the Engineers from Prometheus are/where a Sub-Creation/Servant to another Species...

As far as them looking like Humans being easier for Future Roles.... it only makes it Cheaper and Quicker than our Prometheus Engineers, but when it comes to Interaction with Engineer and Human, then indeed even with the Planet 4 kind there would be a ISSUE...Size!

So they would either have to USE some Special Effects like in the LORD OF THE RINGS... or Cast Actors who are about 7ft Mark..

Regardless of Prometheus or Alien Covenant Engineers.

"So i found this ODD.....  that was until RS had said those Planet 4 Engineers are the Originals..."

So...You think the Engineers on L-223 are mutating themselves? Using the goo to enhance their abilities/bodies? Maybe they have been banished and the planet 4 Engineers have no idea about the black goo?!