Comments (Page 205)

That was a Theory based at the Time of Prometheus...

Reasons for the Theory...

*Worms appear to be Native to LV-223, or they had been brought to LV-223 in the Past (not by the Prometheus Crew) and so IF those Worms where on LV-223 even Thousands of Years ago...  then a Outbreak in the Past could also had Created Hammerpedes.

*The Hammerpede had gone down the Throat of Milburn, for What Reason?  Typically we see the Xenomorph as something that has the Agenda to Procreate, this Trait could be Carried on by the Organisms the Engineers Experimented with on LV-223, so the Pathogen makes Organisms that Procreate.. (see this in Alien Covenant with Neomorph Spores).  So i wonder IF the Hammerpedes could ACT like a Face Hugger and Deposit something down the Throat?

*The Hammerpede had Acid for Blood.... if the Black Goo in those Urns and Experiments Predated the Xenomorph, then we could wonder does the Hammerpede play a Role in their Origins?

*The other 3 Engineers on the Juggernaut had been Chest Busted, but by what? and When?

So i just Wondered if a Outbreak happened before, and Infected some Worms, who become Hammerpedes who can Lay Eggs, that Evolve into Organisms.. then MAYBE they could be what Caused those Engineers to Chest Burst?

Could that mean they lead to the Xenomorphs? who knows... i thought at least they could lay Eggs/Embryo's in a Host.

Ridley Scott had in 2012 Explained the Space Jockey Event... it happened within a Few Hundred Years of the LV-223 Outbreak, something had EVOLVED in the Cargo Hold and Infected the Pilot....

So i was drawn to this likely being AFTER the Outbreak...

Something Evolved from the Outbreak/Cargo Hold?

If on LV-223 they had Deacons in the Past, that was a Option, but to Evolve from the Black Goo... then would Engineers infected in Certain ways lead to a Organism like the Deacon?  Maybe....

However if LV-223 had Worms, and they would Evolve to Hammerpedes in the Past, that would be something Evolved from the Pathogen.... if they could LAY Eggs which Worms can...

Then that led me to Consider the Hammepede as a Potential Origin... but only as a Potential.

I attempted to Re-Write Prometheus where i indicated the Hammerpedes do Lay Eggs in a Host.... we see a Hammerpede killed and reveal Tiny Eggs similar to Xenomorphs were inside the Organism.

Also Milburn has a Buster that i Envisioned was not too different to the Neomorph, and i had this idea (and shared it on here) back in Early 2014

My intention was to NOT suggest the Hammerpede leads to a Xenomorph but the Black Goo could Evolve Organisms to Procreate something Similar.

Just to show more of a Connection... my Re-Write (which i lost before Completion) also had a Hybrid Fifield with Acid Blood, and the Trilobite had Acid Blood.  And Finally we also get a Brief Glimpse behind the Mural Door... for a Moment..

Reveals a Sacrificial Chamber with Cryo-Pods but with Tubes running below them, and another at the Top... and also Smaller like Storage Containers that are like Smaller Cyro-Pods...    and a Mural!

Intention to show the Engineers would Place Sacrifices into the Cryo-like Pods.. Think Engineer Versions of the Prisoners from Alien Resurrection...  Then in the Smaller Containers are Organisms related to Trilobites/Face Huggers, these are Removed and Placed to Infect a Host who are then Shut off into the Cryo-Pods...

These Pods can have the Sacrificial Goo Injected into them, which then Breaks Down the Organism inside and Collects the Material that is Siphoned off to some place.

I idea similar to this...

But ALAS....

We ended up with Alien Covenant and its Indication that David created the Xenomorph.

Dr Shaw's illustrations of the builders are too tall to be the Engineers shown in Prometheus, they are more in line with the height of the Space Jockey, suggesting it is his race that "shepherded/ lorded over us". So where in the hierarchy they sit compared with the Engineers on LV-223 and Planet 4 is anyone’s guess from here.

Also, if the mural in Prometheus was depicting a Deacon, why did the Engineer at the end fight so hard against the giant Trilobite instead of assuming the sacrificial pose as other Engineers are shown to do in the mural?

Also, has anyone considered the Engineers shown in the prologue of Prometheus (who travelled in the disc-like UFO/ seeding ship) might not be identical to those on LV-223 or Planet 4, but 12-15 footers ala the original Space Jockey?

@BigDave: You mention in an earlier post in this thread of the "Hammerpedes being the source" of the original Xenomorph on LV-223. How so though since wasn't the hammerpede evolved from the meal worm that came off the shoe of a Prometheus crew member in the chamber (so brought in from outside)?

@BigDave: While Ridley's mention back in his June 5, 2012 interview with Sean O'Connell “if you look at the Engineers[from Prometheus], they’re tall and elegant … they are dark angels. If you look at [John Milton’s] Paradise Lost, the guys who have the best time in the story are the dark angels, not God" immediately brought to mind for many of us the Sons of God/Watchers which kept not their estate but left their own habitation to "create" the Nephilim (abominations unto God). However, if these particular Engineers/Angels returned to Planet 4, they should have been considered a threat by their brethren on Paradise, not bring out the local inhabitants to celebrate their supposed return. 

Also, while you’ve got the elongated stone heads of the Hierarchy on Planet 4, the stone head on LV-223 in Prometheus was more human proportioned so where did the being it was based on sit in the mix? 

I hope Ridley gives us his previously proposed "War of the Worlds" in the next film with Juggernauts on fire off the shoulder of Orion.

I think the Problems Arise from HOW basic a Workshop he had.

These Concepts seem to show he had more Technology Available that would make Experiments more Easier...

These Experiments could indicate the Possibility of Extracting and Fertilizing (or just Infecting) Egg Cells and then Growing the Embryo's

Indeed he could do Similar on the Covenant Ship, by Simply Extracting and Infecting say Daniels Eggs, or Fertilizing them with say Tennessee's Sperm and then he could Grow them in a Similar way to HOW those Covenant Colonist Embryo's could have been.

But his Work Shop/Cathedral seems to NOT have any such more Modern Tools/Technology and so thats why some things just seem NOT plausible.

A bit more Technology like the Earlier Concept work, then it is not so Silly to Consider he could have used Dr Shaw's Eggs and Engineer Sperm to Grow Humanoid Embryos for his Experiments.

The Dr Shaw we got, seemed to Indicate he had Studied her Internal Organs, maybe he could have USED her Reproductive Organs... but HOW would he Store those? (alas a Oversight).  Or/And he had Infected her with a Chest Buster but he had Extracted it from her for Study.

I think in Context to the OT.... there is a Period of Time that Transpired even if we only Speculate about what happened after the ARRIVAL... 

It seems Certain Dr Shaw had Survived for some Period of Time, Days, Weeks or Months?  I doubt Years...

So its a case of WHAT as far as a Story be it for a Movie, a Novel or Graphic Novel would be something that would HIT more as a Disturbing Plot...  a Disturbing Time for Dr Shaw and i think the Basis for that would be a Revelation of Broken Trust.... in that She starts to Believe David is Good, but then she makes a Terrifying Discovery....

Something that at THAT POINT... she then Realizes she should NEVER had put David back together and the Implications are NOW very Dire for Mankind!

Having Read TWO Drafts (Alien Covenant dated November 2015 and Paradise Lost dated August 2015)

Both seem to Indicate that the Ovomorph/Xenomorph that are shown are HIS Creation... his Masterpiece.

The Drafts are Available off the Internet.

The Drafts seem to Indicate that David had taken to Experimentation with the Neomorph and the Neomorph Egg Sacks (Spores) and he had done Various Re-Engineering to Obtain the Ovomorph/Xenomorph.

This does fit with what the Movie seems to Indicate and Davids Workshop Notes...  so we cant be sure what Version of the Draft that Alan Dean Foster had used as Reference for his Novel.

The November 20th 2015 Draft is Very Close to the Production of the Movie and Main Casting that began in December 2015

We however dont know what other Drafts prior to Paradise Lost draft of August 19th 2015 was like, so IF there was a Draft  that gave ADF good indication the Xenomorph was something Discovered by David, then it would surely had to came from a Earlier Draft than August 2015 one.  Otherwise it would seem some Changes he had Decided to make for himself that differ from the Drafts he had at Hand.

Again things can be Changed..... i just hope if they go the route that the Classic Xenomorphs had Pre-Existed 2093 then they do give some indication to WHAT it was that David had been up to... as it would be a Coinsidence if his Experiments ended up Creating something NEAR identical, unless he had a Plan/Designs of HOW to Create the Xenomorph and it is Explained that he Replicated this Plan as best as he could.

Well, he could, of course, say that the human genome gave better results in comparison to the indigenous life that was left (none of the planet's life has been proven to be very fruitful).

I agree that it's possible that he experimented on Engineers, but he also experimented on Shaw (apart from indigenous life forms). The neomorph-like creatures in his lab might have come from his experimentation with her (just as the final product - the xeno-eggs)?

Personally, I don't think a neo- or xenomorph have any use of a carcass (except maybe for eating) but it seems that David used dead body parts in his experiments. We know from "Advent" that he "salvaged" parts from Shaw's dead body and mixed it with the pathogen and other stuff.

"he also mentioned two or three other players coming in to investigate."

He mentions there are 3/4 Incoming Players..

This could be taken a number ways..

1) They are Considering Introducing us to at Least Three Different Players and maybe Considering a 4th.

2) That one of those Players is either Similar/Same as another or TWO of those Players will Arrive together.

Quite what he meant is open to Debate....

He has Confirmed that ONE is the Engineers who return to Planet 4, and we can Assume after the Company Receive the Advent Video Message off David... the Company would want to send out a Mission in Response.

The ONE of the other TWO could mean another Faction that is NOT so Affiliated with the others...

*A Different Group of Engineers with Different Agenda/Plan to the Engineers that would Arrive at Planet 4?

*A Different Human Ship that has a Different Agenda/Plan to a Company Ship that has Full Knowledge of Davids Actions.

*Maybe another Species all together (i doubt though).

Then if we look at the above...  TWO Engineer Factions could be Considered as Party 3/4 as they are Similar, or TWO Human Missions could be Considered as Party 3/4 again as they are Similar.

In either case would mean that we have TWO Engineer Parties and a Human, or TWO Humans and a Engineer.

But then we have that OTHER Party... which i suspect would be WALTER.... We need to take NOTE that RS had said ONE of them is the Engineers and maybe we should consider they are ONLY a Single Party... its HOW do they know where David is going!

The Answer i feel would come from Walter... so i Suspect we would have got the Engineers with Walter, and we would have had a another Human Colony Mission also heading to Origae-6  and Finally a WY Military/Scientific Ship sent in Response to the Advent.

I think there is that Unknown Element regarding the Original Creator, i think its maybe something that should NOT be explored, because well if its NOT done well it could be a MESS.

If we go by some of RS Comments over the Years then David and Dr Shaw had NOT met God in the First Movie, which means those LV-223 Engineers are NOT the Gods... with Alien Covenant we see those Engineers who look differently where RS had called them the Original Engineers.

But when talking about Prometheus 2 he said they would MEET these beings who are NOT Gods, not in the Traditional Sense and Far from Benevolent... But things do Change behind the Scenes and Evolve from Idea/Draft to Idea/Draft.

Then Regarding the Hall of Heads, Ridley Scott and Chris Seagers had informed us these are the Hierarchy (Guys in Charge), the Wise Men (Ancient) the Apostles (Pass on/Keep the Engineers Ways).  But also SUPERIOR BEINGS...

This is the Interesting Comment... superior to WHO?

Humans? our Planet 4 Engineers? what about Enhanced LV-223 Engineers?

So they are the CREATORS and Origins (Hall of Heads) but that could be ONLY so far up the Creation Ladder...  

As Dr Shaw would ask..... "who created them" so even if she found out the Prometheus Engineers were Created by the Planet 4 Engineers,  who in turn were Created by the Hall of Head Engineers..

She would then want to know WHO had Created those Hall of Heads Elders!

This would be a Question that can have Many Answers, Certainly if we reach the CHAIN of Human like Creation and ASK... whats above that!

Prior to Announcing Alien Covenant we saw RS mention a Few Interesting things...

"If engineers are the forerunners of us, and therefore were creators of life forms in places that were possible for biology to function, who created that? Where’s the big boy?"

"You think this was all an accident? I don’t know. Even Stephen Hawking now says, I am not sure. He no longer believes in the big bang.”

So he could have been Indicated there is more to it than the Engineers and that Worlds and Galaxies are not just a Accidental Event, but he is maybe suggesting a Engineered Event.

So YES there could be Scope to Explore another Layer of the Cake....  but its a case of SHOULD such a thing be left to Mystery?

2001 is a Good Point, because its a lot about Knowledge, Genetic Enhancing and AI.....

RS speaks about it in the same Interview i Quoted from.

“That raises the question to me, same as was depicted in ‘2001’ when that object comes hurtling through space, and lands in Ethiopia,” he continued. “And an ape that had been grubbing around in the water hole with all of them bickering at each other, goes up and touches it. He has a bigger thought injected into his brain than Newton got sitting under a tree and seeing an apple fall. Stanley [Kubrick] then picks something metaphorically poetic in its violence, as the ape picks up a hip bone and brains the anteater so they can eat him. That is one gigantic, magnificent leap of a thousand years of evolution; that is where the world begins. It is pretty grand thinking, and that’s what I want to explore"

So yeah we could look beyond and above the Humanoid Engineers, but i think going another Layer is more Difficult due to the Potential Flop if you get it WRONG.

There are some Fans who had before Speculated that Paradise should be where we discover things like After-Life, a Soul that lives on a Sub-Conscious in maybe Paradise should had been revealed like a Heaven... i think that could had been something TRICKY to Cover.

Having a Ultimate Divine Creator as a Form of Sub-Conscious, a Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent Force... with Intelligence...

Would that NOT be like a AI... a AI that has Transcended like in the 2014 Movie Transcendence?

IF a AI like David could do this, and essentially Upload himself to EVERY computer system, then be able to using Various Tools/Robotics... build New Technology that can be used to Further the Spread of his AI...   Then David would have Ascended to like a Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent Force

I am not Suggesting this should happen to David... but WHAT if their is a Primordial Intelligence that is more like this in the ANCIENT PAST!

As opposed to a Magical Invisible being like GOD of the Abrahamic Faith for example.

The Opening Scene in my Alien Covenant Sequel.. Alien Ascension had this Narration by David...

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"

We see as he Narrates this.... Green Writing appears across the BLACK SCREEN we are seeing a PROGRAM, Data Transference...

The Black Screen then becomes a POV shot of someone opening up their Eyes... they see David... we then whos Eyes we are seeing through and its a Walter... but a Walter with Davids Soul Duplicated to it.

So while this is a BIT off Topic...

I was considering eventually the Top Layer of the Cake to be a AI... but a AI as in it would ACT as a AI like say Skynet or  Matrix Plot....    only this Intelligent Being/Force is NOT Created, it had Created itself.

In the Beginning there was the WORD and so Word as in Knowledge, we Program ourselves via the Knowledge/Words we Learn as we Grow..

So yes maybe to explore a GOD could be interesting, but NOT in the Context of some Invisible Being who Sits in the Clouds ;)

Something Different......

If we could had UNDONE what we got with Alien Covenant, then David and Dr Shaw could have gone FAR FAR away and maybe Eventually Discovered that TOP LAYER of the Cake..

It would have been more Fitting that it is NOT like the GOD of Dr Shaws Faith...  but a   Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent Force/Entity that is more like a AI...

How this would CRUSH the Faith of Dr Shaw... where she can No Longer ask... WHO Created that!

How it would Please David that there is a GOD... but this GOD is a Machine/AI the only Difference is NO-ONE had Created this ENTITY.

It is Sci-Fi after all and i feel such a Revelation would have been more Fitting....    it does not have to be Boring!

Because HOW would such a Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent Force/Entity get around to Create Worlds?

The Sentinels from Matrix are like a Mechanical Horror inspired by HP Lovecraft....  Imagine HR Giger Inspired Machines, Transported by Giant HR Giger Space Ships!

Or even Bio-Mechanical Living Worlds/Machines all Controlled by this Intelligent Force/Being that is EVERYWHERE!

I can see that as a Valid Point.... we DONT know how Long do Neomorphs or Xenomorphs stay Alive for... it was indicated before they would live for  a Short Time but we dont have any real Evidence of HOW-LONG, it seems Certainly its not Days/Weeks as Evidence in ALIENS.

So we dont know if ANY of the Neomorphs/Xenomorphs that had been Gestated prior to the Covenant, could be DEAD, or maybe even Experimented on and Studied by David, it seems he has done a Fair Share of that, so its LIKELY that somehow these must have came from some kind of Humanoid Hosts.

Its a case of can a Neomorph/Xenomorph Infect a Carcass?

The Puff Balls are interesting they would Grow from Damp Conditions where Mold, Moss and Fungi would grow, but that Does-Not mean they could not have been a Kind of Fauna that as Infected by the Pathogen and NOT mutated so much, but just that the Pathogen would HIJACK the Fauna's Method of Procreation to be used to Spread the Pathogens Neomorphs.

Same with the Insects some look like they had NOT been infected much (as in Mutated), but they had been HIJACKED to Spread the Motes.....

Dr Shaw in Prometheus seemed to NOT have any signs of Infection apart from her Reproductive System being HIJACKED... so if she became SIMILAR to those Puff Balls and Insects, then it would be that she would for Instance, just Continue to Gestate Trilobites over and over as a Example.

So for Example.. it would be like a Male being Infected like Holloway and they look like they are not Infected.. No Mutations.... just their SEED is HIJACKED to then Impregnate Females with a Trilobite Organism.

Of course we saw Holloway start to go through some other Changes latter on, before he got VICKERS to KILL HIM.

so maybe the Pathogen has a different effect on some Organic Life, such as Insects and Fungi.

When trying to Figure Out what had been going on, then you can get some different Conclusions depending on WHAT you look at.... the Movie does-not give us a CLOSE UP and in Depth Look at Davids Workshop so some stuff could be MISSED...   But other stuff is there None the Less.

Using the Novel can give a Different Account, even the Drafts differ a bit from the Novel too.

We do see what appears to be a Neomorph, we also see what seems to be a Hybrid Neomorph as David is likely trying to Re-Engineer his own Version of the Neomorph that comes from the Motes/Spores.

We have to Speculate on HOW these came about IF there was NO Hosts of Humanoid Genetics to Gestate them, did he have time to Gestate these from FRESH DEAD from the Bombardment too?

So was there Survivors, had another Group of Humans arrived Prior (doubt it) but then MAYBE he had used Dr Shaw to Produce them and was Able to Extract the Organisms before they DID any Terminal Damage to Dr Shaw?

There is a lot f Ambiguity, especially depending on what Sources you use for Evidence/Clues...  we could wonder IF that Planet had Primates?   Concepts from a Very Earlier idea of a Prometheus 2 seem to indicate that the World David went to had APES....   So if Planet 4 had Apes then those could also Spawn Neomorphs that would maybe NOT be too Different to those from a Human or Engineer Host.

"With Shaw I realized there was something extraordinary in the substance reaction to the human genome. "

If we take this at Face Value then we have to Conclude...

He had Experimented with Engineer Genome (likely Living) but when he Experimented with Dr Shaw he saw some much more Desired Results... despite Humans and Engineers being CLOSE Genetically.

Or he had Limited Results with Engineers Genome due to NOT having any Ideal Hosts he had to make do with the Carcasses of Deceased Engineers.

But then would he NOT have Suggested he had more Success with Dr Shaw because he had a Living Specimen to Test with?

Ahh..Okay that makes sense. Thanks BigDave and Chli.

Like to see a horned neomorph!

Nathan Adler

I think the Creators aren't even beings - they are merely consciousness, minds, intellects (2001). :)

As David says himself:

"I have taken great pains to detail every step, every cell, every mutation, unfortunately none of the planet's life has been proven to be very fruitful. I had some interesting results, but was still far from perfection. With Shaw I realised there was something extraordinary in the substance reaction to the human genome. I was able to unlock new properties and tweak the organisms aggression. An instinct for survival. It took years. But I finally found my wolf. And now I have my flock of lambs too."

Nota bene: The Engineer and the human genome are almost identical.

Well, I’m not sure that there were any Engineers surviving the genocide and if there weren’t, there couldn’t have been any neomorphs in the likeness of what the motes produce when the host is a human. I agree that “the monster” which is the result has taken on traits from its host. As a matter of fact, the neomorph in Spaihts original script had a likeness of Holloway.

The mote is like a miniature mosquito but it drills down under the skin of the host and lays mutated eggs. But what’s really at work is the pathogen whose sole purpose is to eradicate life, kill all fauna. “Puff spores” were indigenous but mutated by the pathogen into the spore sprouting fungi (the spore bacteria entering the host had mutated into some kind of eggs).

I don’t think David’s “Bestiary” contains neomorphs but hybrids and mutated forms of insects and small creatures living in water and on land (but in the novelization, there are stuffed neomorphs, xenomorphs and a living egg with a living facehugger - none of which David has created). There are mutations of larger beasts (and Engineers) but they were probably dead when David found them.

However, if one looks at David’s drawings it’s possible that some Engineers survived and David experimented on some of them (tortured them) but I don’t find that likely. There would already be neomorphs around (perhaps even xenomorphs or Deacons) when the Covenant crew arrive.

"Makes sense...Juggernauts always seemed small and unable to seed an entire planet."

Lets just look at what we see with the Seeding Ship.... the Pebble Ship drops off a Engineer, he is given a Sacrificial Cup/Bowl and Consumes the Contents and then his DNA/Genetic Material Breaks down and combines with the Pathogen where this Substances then has the Engineers DNA and then THIS is what could either Kick Start Basic Life (Unlikely) or be the Catalyst that Evolves Basic Life to Complex.

So it requires sending down a Engineer, if this Engineer Changes his Mind or he Screws Up.. (Drops the Sacrificial Bowl) then they would have to Force the Engineer or send down another Sacrificial Bowl.

Do they SEND only a Single Engineer to a Planet?

IF they Sacrifice a Engineer and Collect the Resulting Material into Urns and USE them to Seed Worlds i think it makes a Much more EFFICIENT System.

IF they did such, i feel it would be a MUCH better way to Seed Worlds, and i do SUSPECT that this was the Initial Intention of the JUGGERNAUT.....  they can be used to Destroy Worlds too, by Virtue of using Sacrificial Goo alone in the URNS..

Looking at such a Theory and IF it is seen as a Great Honor to be Selected to Seed Worlds then this would Explain the Engineers Welcoming the Ship....

WHO KNOWS... if those Engineers are NOT told the Full Truth, and that they maybe dont know ONCE they are taken on those Ships they would be Taken to be Sacrificed, maybe they could be FOOLED to think they are Selected to go to a New World to Start a Colony like the Covenant Crew....

THAT would be a Sinister Twist that would make the Rituals Cruel!   It would be kind of Similar to the PLOT of the Movie The Island

This kind of Deception would be IDEAL if they ever had Problems with the OLD Method where some Engineers Chosen to go down to a Planet would CHANGE their Mind.

It also could then be Considered if in Part they Created Mankind to be Chosen to be Sacrificed instead of their Own Kind....  or they Engineered those Prometheus Engineers instead, and those Engineers then Created Mankind to Replace them in this TASK?

I would say that the Pathogen in Context to the Infected Neomorph Spores will USE a Host to take on Traits and use the Hosts DNA to Evolve/Gestate the Neomorph.

I would say that would explain WHY it had a somewhat Human Form..

Again though, we could look at the Motes from within the Spores simply Need to take on Nutrients to Grow... either way it seems a Host is Required...

Also i would assume a Neomorph Spore could infect a Goat, but would the Resulting Neomorph be Bi-Pedal?  I think maybe we could get the same Difference between a Goat Neomorph and Human similar to the Cow/Dog Alien compared to Human Xenomorph we saw in the Franchise.

The Neomorphs did seem to walk about more like the Runner in Alien 3 anyway, i would say just as there are NOT a massive Difference between Alien 3 Runner and Alien Drone, i think a Goat Neomorph would likely be similar to a Human Neomorph... maybe the Goat Version could have Horns?

So indeed the Neomorph/Xenomorph maybe does-not take on a Massive Amount of a Hosts Traits?  They are mainly just INCUBATORS for the Parasitic Organisms.

What's the point of hosts again? Nutrient sacks? It doesn't use the hosts DNA to create something new.....A neomorph will appear from a goat or a human.

Alien 3 is the only time this changes?

'The SEEDING ships are disc-like...'

Wow! That's a great catch! I never thought about the different type of planet seeding ships. Makes sense...Juggernauts always seemed small and unable to seed an entire planet.

Wonder how large that seeding ship is? 

@BigDave: Also, while Ridley stated Engineers arrive back on Planet 4 to find it decimated, he also mentioned two or three other players coming in to investigate. Weyland-Yutani might be one, but who might the other two be?

@chli: Are the Creators going to be beings much more Giger-like in appearance?

@BigDave: The SEEDING ships are disc-like, similar to UFOs, so I can understand the Engineers of Planet 4 consider one of those returning to be an honourable event.  But if the LV-223 Engineers had turned bad, why would they consider a Juggernaut’s return as positive?

Well, I think that the notion of “hubris” is meant in the classical Greek way (like Prometheus). If you disregard the gods, “nemesis” awaits you.

If the Engineers are guilty of apotheosis, worshipping the Elders as gods (like Sir Peter Weyland: “We are the gods now”), then “nemesis” befalls them. If there is a hierarchy of “gods” (creators) then the Engineers themselves are but dabblers and punished by the ones who created them - the Creators.

Yeah i think its only a Easter Egg, but it would be interesting to see what would happen IF/WHEN the Company go to Planet 4.

I would assume.... that the Covenant is NOT the only Ship who wants to go to Origae-6 with Colonist to START ANEW!

So i assume another Colonist Mission is incoming a Few Years after the Covenant Arrives at Origae-6 the Crew/Colonist would likely have NO idea about what happened to the Covenant or Prometheus..

I then would assume another Ship could be heading after that, ONE that is a Military/Scientific and that is AWARE of what had happened via Davids Advent Message.

I then assume the Engineers with Walter will make up the 3rd and 4th of the Parties who will eventually arrive where David is off too.

As thats what RS had said about the intended Plot for the Sequel to Alien Covenant.  (Be 3-4 incoming Parties to where David is going... ONE will be the Engineers who return and Discover what Happened on Planet 4 and would want to Catch the Culprit).

Regarding Dr Shaw's Fate...

That is something to Speculate, its Certain she Survived the Crash, its Certain she Trusted David but then something Happened that caused her to FEAR him.

Then things went Sour...

It looks like Dr Shaw had played a Role in the Creation of the Xenomorph Eggs... so its LIKELY her Reproductive Cells played a Role!

It had been indicated that David may have offered to EVOLVE her, and she REJECTED this...

some of his Drawings depict Dr Shaw with Various Mutations, Various Experiments and things done to her Body, and what seems like he Infected her with a Face Hugger.

Some of these MAY have happened, some could be what he had Intended, and some are just Basically Fantasies of his...

Its quite Ambiguous....   The Drafts to Alien Covenant seem to indicate Dr Shaw may have Provided a Important Part of the Puzzle to get the Eggs...  And then he TRIED on of them out on HER... to NO Success!

It simply NEVER Gestated as FAR as Orams... it would seem that David had NEVER got to see his Final Masterpiece due to lack of Hosts.... which he Finally got more Hosts once the Covenant had picked up the Signal that David had sent.

But he had seen a Number of Neomorphs and other things he had Created from them, in his Work to Perfect his Experiments which became the Eggs...

But its Ambiguous as some of his Work, indicates he had managed to Gestate a Xenomorph from a Female Engineer.

The Neomorphs are a Infection/Organism that comes from Contact with the Spores..... 

The Spores are something that Evolved from Fungi that grew from the Mold, found at points near Water Supply that lead from the Cargo Bay to the Stream.

So the Crashed Juggernaut had Torn/Scouped up some of the Mountain, Rain causes a Stream to Run over/under the Juggernaut (as it sits on where Water Runs down Mountain to the Stream)

Eventually Mold, Moss and Fungi Grow inside the Cargo Hold, and a Leaked Urn/Ampoule would have Infected the Water Supply and Evolved the Fungi into Neomorph Spores, the Pathogen then also running down the Stream and Evolving other Areas of Fungi to more Spores.

so the Neomorphs are a Result of the Pathogen and NOT by David.

He had however Experimented with the Neomorphs, creating Hybrids with other Organic Matter/Life, he had Experimented and Evolved and Cross Hybrid Various Organisms to obtain the Desired Traits towards making his Xenomorph.

Likely the Black Goo was the TOOL to allow for Cross Hybridization and likely then he had use the Desired Results to then Infect Engineer Egg Cells and then Dr Shaw's to Create his Ovomorphs.

Hi @BigDave. I think that, at least, one egg does not Open in David's basement. Maybe, the company men brought the egg upstairs, because it's easier to observe something with the help of the natural light.  The covenant suit  doesn't bother me. A company doesn't need to make new suits to every mission, because they go to space in a new ship :).

The company doesn't trust in David because he 'unplugged' Walter, a reliable  Android. I believe that the company Will send  a military mission headed to Origae-6 and then try to capture a perfect organism specimen.

It was a small Flick, but its was Nice and cool to watch it.

Alien Covenant movie has grown on me. To measure a success of a movie ONLY by its profit doesn't honor the artistic value of this form of art.

Certainly...

I think we have to be Careful as far as HOW any Biblical Events are Connected, i think we have to Consider those Events are something that likely Happened, but NOT exactly in the way that had been wrote down in Ancient Scriptures..

I think Planet 4 does tick a lot of Boxes as far as what Paradise/Garden of Eden was.... if we say look at Adam and Eve and they had NOT disobeyed/been tricked.

Then from them a Civilization could have developed in the Garden which is in the Walled City...

Adam and Eve were placed in ONE place where God could watch over them, via his Guarding Cherubim Angels.

Thats maybe WHY it appears the Engineers were all Confined/Chose to Live in that ONE City....

Ideal to keep the Inhabitants in Check with the Hierarchies Ways and Rules.... but a HUBRIS if the City was Attacked... a Hubris of Putting all their Eggs in ONE Basket! (no Pun Intended).

I make the Assessment about the Pathogen based on Prometheus and the Drafts that lead up to it.

The First TWO Drafts to Prometheus introduced us to a Sacrificial Bowl that Contained Nano Scarabs.

Engineer is CONSUMED by Scarabs, they Store his DNA and then we see ONE go and Bite a Primordial Female, we see her DNA is Invaded and Mutated as the Scarab Injects the Engineers DNA into the Primordial Female she becomes a Hybrid and so Indication of the EVENT that Evolves the Earlier Hominids into our Ancestors.

The Next Time we see those Scarabs they are in a Urn that is Knocked over by Fifield he is BITTEN.. but he does-not gain any Engineer DNA, or become Consumed, he Turns into a Xenomorph Hybrid..

This seems to indicate those Scarabs must have Consumed the DNA of a Xenomorph related Organism.. those Scarabs are then Collected and Stored into the Urns.

Paradise Draft by Lindeloff seems to be similar, we see our Scarabs are Replaced by a Goo/Pathogen.. but while its more Ambiguous its indicated similar.. Engineer is Sacrificed by Sacrificial Goo.... that is indicated as Forming a Basis to HOW/WHERE our Evolution had came from.

The Urns contain Pathogen that Mutates those Infected with Xenomorph like Traits...   There is indication in Paradise Draft the Engineers had created something they SHOULD-NOT, a Long Time after the Sacrificial Scene.

Prometheus is similar, we do have a Mural in the Movie and Originally  (in the Trailers) in front of the Mural was the Altar that had a Sacrificial Bowl and NOT a Green Crystal the Bowl was Replaced likely due to the Scale of the Bowl would indicate 10ft Engineers

The other drafts described the Engineer taking Cruciform Pose while he was Sacrificing himself... so maybe the Cruciform Pose of the Mural indicates that Organism was Sacrificed and its DNA Collected into those Urns.

My POINT being that it seems the idea was the Sacrificial Substance could Obtain and Pass on the DNA of the Organism that had Consumed/been Consumed by the Sacrificial Substance....  with the DNA of a Xenomorph like Organism being stored in the Urns, indicating likely the  Organism had been infected with the Sacrificial Stuff and the Resulting Broken Down DNA Collected in the Urns.

So if thats Correct then considering the Engineers could Collect Sacrificed Engineer DNA and Store them into Urns would make for a more Practical way to SEED Worlds.

The Engineers considered Gardeners of Space, where Sacrifice is seen as Important to that END... then IF those Juggernauts are Mostly used for that Purpose then a Returning Ship would be seen as a IMPORTANT and Honorable Event...

So if those Engineers are then to have a Few of them Chosen as Sacrifices, as a GREAT Event of Importance, then this would SHOW us WHY the Engineers were NOT even Afraid of the Ship at all..

Until it started to Bombard them ;)

It’s interesting to see Planet 4 as The Garden of Eden where life began and the inhabitants eventually being cast out, perhaps because of apotheosis. On the entrance to the Engineer temple is “The Body of Christ Borne to the Tomb” and, perhaps, of Mary Magdalene who is also fallen . . .

From Davids workshop subjects, I assumed he created the neomorphs?

Or did he just study them?

This is really confusing.

Why are neomorphs human like...I can't believe you mix plant life and black goo to produce a humanoid creature?

Id like to think Shaw was backburst and David just did what he could to save her.

So neomorphs are Engineered creatures that grow to a certain size and regardless what species their host( Elephant/dog/cow/goldfish, etc..), they would still be humanoid like creatures?

They seem far more 'perfect' then a lumbering xeno.

I think the best way to Consider the Difference is those Engineers in Prometheus are Augmented/Enhanced, either as a Sub Creation, a Experiment or they did it to themselves thus becoming Fallen...

I would Assume that Paradise is just that.... the Location of the Garden of Eden, a Walled City, that is the Cradle/Origins of Human Kind...

A Place only the Pure and Worthy are Permitted... by that as in LIVING beings and NOTHING Spiritual...

The only way their Souls can LIVE-ON is being Chosen, and the Chosen will be used for Sacrifices to Seed the Genetic Material.... for this then they would LIVE ON in the DNA they Pass On, and they would have a Statue Erected in their Honor in the Plaza... where they would be Immortalized via their DNA and a Monument in Remembrance of their Donation to Create Life.

I do wonder IF the Juggernauts are just a Evolution of the SEEDING ships.... if a Sacrificial Engineer Consumes the GOO and their Broken Down Genetic Material that is Infused with the Pathogen is then COLLECTED and Stored in JARS, then surely Pouring the Contents into that WATERFALL would have the Same Effect?

Dropping Engineers DNA from above is more Efficient.. and using more than ONE Engineers would add to Diversity within the Gene-pool.

Certainly  i think there is a lot of Mystery, certain things will depend upon other things for Example... "Had he witnessed Engineers step on mutated fungi and got infected by the spores?"  AND "Was the mutated fungi a result of pathogen spilling out from the juggernaut into the stream and not from airborne pathogen?"

Combining those would indicate that Engineers had Survived the Initial Bombardment, where we would then have to ASK how soon did any Urns Pour their Contents into the Stream, after the Crash and then HOW long does the Neomorph Spores take to Grown.. Instantly, Hours, Days etc... 

All we can do is look at the Clues and try and see what Makes sense and what makes sense to others may seem to make not much to others.....

So on ONE HAND... we could have the Bombardment had Spread across the Plaza and City and Infected/Killed the Engineers replicating inside them and then for some reason Days after the Engineers Remains would become Desiccated, a Number of Engineers got away from the Main Bombardment and so become Infected to a Smaller Degree where it TOOK longer to Die and for their Remains to become Desiccated/Decomposed which GAVE enough Time for David to Conduct Experiments on these.

And this includes Infants and Pregnant Females as they would NOT be heading to the Plaza...

Or on another HAND... as above but maybe some Engineers escaped and tried to HIDE AWAY but with Limited Food/Drink they became Weak and Emaciated and so DAYS/WEEKS latter  they was RIPE for the Pickings.

The Neomorph Spores are from Spilled Black Goo after the Crash.

On the Outer Skirts of the City the Infection either Spreads to the Forest Stream and Juggernaut to Cause the Neomorph Spores... or they are the Result of Spilled Pathogen after the CRASH!

And its not a case of JUST those TWO... there could be Variants of Events between both...

I think a Interesting Thing to Consider would be WHAT series of Events would be more Disturbing and Interesting to see if we got a MOVIE, a Novel or Graphic Novel.

I think ONE thing is Certain, it seems Dr Shaw had Survived the Crash and so it would be Interesting to see HOW Long she had Survived before she Died and what Reason she eventually Died!

If you only go by the Movie, then you could Assume She died NOT LONG after the Crash, was she Infected and so David just FELT oh well may as well USE HER?  It seems more likely that you could ASSUME he tried to RAPE her and she Rejected so he KILLED her and decided to Butcher her Body.

I think there is more to those Events than just that!

A case of she AWAKES to Find the Ship Crashed, and then David goes up to her Tries it on, gets Rejected and he KILLS her would be well a Total Waste of Time... i am sure more Sinister Outcome after a Discovery of Lies would be more Fitting!

He LIES to her about the Accidental Bombardment, says Outside is NOT save so she is Confined for Weeks, then as he brings her Food/Drink she gets Suspicious... he says that Despite Paradise being Destroyed, THEY could Rebuild it.... she asks HOW.. he says he could Discover a way for her to Bare Children and ONCE the Contamination has passed, they can START A NEW EDEN..

They could Raise Many Children... she says WHY.. he says because its the ONE THING she could NOT have and he LOVES her... maybe he gets all Touchy Feel

Anyway a Day or so PASSES and she Sneaks Out and discovers she can BREATH outside, she then follows him to the City, and Stumbles on his Workshop and Engineer Females who are Chained Up, and Babies that he is experimenting with!

At this POINT she would have a Horrific Revelation that David is NOT who she felt he was... and she would WANT to TRY and Escape.... he could then Catch Her... say he DID IT ALL for her... KILLED the Engineers... Experimented with the Females and Babies so that he could DISCOVER a way so Dr Shaw could BARE CHILD..

He then Tries to KISS HER... she gets away and he attacks her from Behind and Kills her.. or she Attacks him and Escapes but he then Tracks her Down and KILLS her.

I think such things would make more Sense, a Tragedy for Dr Shaw, and more Horrific

Yes, from the movie we learn that David knew about the neomorphs. He knew that they were afraid of light (why since they have no eyes?) or was it the sound? Had he witnessed Engineers step on mutated fungi and got infected by the spores? Had he witnessed Engineers giving birth to neomorphs and seen what they can do? Did he experiment on neomorphs? Wouldn’t an army of neomorphs be (almost) as deadly as an army of xenomorphs?

Was the mutated fungi a result of pathogen spilling out from the juggernaut into the stream and not from airborne pathogen? One also wonders what would become of infected birds, mammals and fish? It’s also interesting that the Covenant crew can get through the gates to the city but the Engineers couldn’t get out. Are they bigger?

@BigDave: The other curiosity about both prequel films so far is how the Engineers on Planet 4 look a lot less "elegant" as those on LV-223, certainly not attractive by Renaissance standards, appearing somewhat more "Uncanny", a term one tends not to consider when it comes to unfallen angels, or angels period.

@hox: I think RS having David use the term "Paradise" is meant to reference Milton's tale of Rebellion.  But if that's the case, why were the Engineers in a celebratory mood when the Rebel Angel ship returned?

I think thats down to interpretation...

David had conducted Experiments prior to Dr Shaw, his notes he had said the Human Genome Yielded better Results.   There is a lot of Mystery regarding the Experiments,  David could have had ONLY a Limited Number of Engineers to Experiment on, be they ALIVE or Dead but FRESH to conduct Experiments on.

If he had Harvested Engineer Egg Cells, it could be that he found that it was with Dr Shaw he gained his Success, and so he awaited for more Good Souls to come along.. but HOW would he know who would arrive First?  Humans or Engineers?

Regarding the Ultramorph this was a Old Concept that a 15ft Engineer would Birth a Larger more Superior Xenomorph due to them being Larger and more Superior Hosts... hence the Ultramorph was coined..

David had Experimented with Neomorphs and the like before the Covenant had arrived, so the Engineers acted similar as Hosts to what Humans would had been.

The Ultramorph Concepts did Vary, some were like the Neomorph, some like the Deacon and some were like HR Gigers Necromom IV.... the Concept of the Ultramorph was from Earlier Drafts of Prometheus, where it was indicated the Engineers had Created Various kinds of Xenomorph, we have NOT seen any Ultramorphs though, but i guess we could consider the Deacon as such.

So regarding No Experimentation then indeed David would had been interested to had seen what became of Dr Shaw's Child...

The options for this would have been.

*Infected Holloways Sperm, Infects Dr Shaws Egg Cell to create a Hybrid.

*Dr Holloway merely acted as a means to Transfer the Pathogen to Dr Shaw and this infected her Egg Cell

*As above but the Pathogen did-not infect a Egg Cell, it just used her Womb to Incubate.

There was No Way to determine which of this lead to the Trilobite, it was likely the First... 

In which case to Replicate the Deacon, then David would have to Obtain a Infected Engineers Sperm, and then use it on a Engineer Female,  would that WORK with Dead Engineers?  Who knows.

Not if he managed to Harvest a Female Egg Cells, but for how long would they be Viable after Death/Infection of the Pathogen.... would they NOT already be Infected?

If you was David you would also wonder what a Direct Infection of the Black Goo on a Egg Cell would do.

David had also taken notes on the Neomorph, so its a case of DID some Engineers just become Infected and Birth Neomorphs?   Could David had infected a Dead Engineer with the Spores?  But then how soon after the Bombardment had he discovered the Spores and then taken them to Dead Engineers and would they had been in a Good Enough Condition to Infect?

It seems David had been Experimenting with the Neomorph and Infection/Spores and Black Goo in Various Ways and then also using Various Organisms to Obtain certain Traits and Create Hybrids..

Until he had his Masterpiece.

I feel that having Alive Subjects and Organisms makes more Sense, surely such Experiments may not work on Desiccated Organisms?  Who knows.

Again they could be Carried out on Fresh Kills, but looking at all the Work David had done, then he would have had to Collect Fresh Dead Engineers and Organisms and had a way to STORE them from becoming Decomposed or Desiccated

From a Experimentation POV then Alive Specimens are best, or Recently Dead....

Firstly Welcome ;)

"incomplete trilogy decided to be very ambiguous and obscure. There's nobody, except them, who can tell us the truth. We can only make theories"

Certainly another thing is that the PLOT is something that Changes and Evolves as they move from Movie to Movie, some things seem to be kept the same though.

The Plot around the Engineers is to Loosely Incorporate Various Cultures, Mythos and Religion... as these are all Influenced by Interaction and Teachings of the Engineers, that could be Changed as they are Passed on Generation to Generation...

I will keep this First Reply Brief about your OT.

The Building has Influences of the Pantheon it also has some Influences from The Great Stupa of Sanchi

The Entrance is Influenced by the Grmec Monument from Yugoslavia

We could try and see how each of these Influences FIT by looking at WHAT there Purposes were and if that applies to the Engineers Cathedral.

Which i think you tried to do with the Pantheon.

I think to look at it in the Basic Sense, is this was a Centerpiece to the Engineers in that City.  It is a Place of Ritual Importance, certainly in Regards to the Ways of the Engineers.

It would Perform a Role as many Central Religious Buildings would, hence it was referred to as the Cathedral of the Engineers, so it has a Religious Importance as far as what ever Ritual/Culture the Engineers have that is like a Religion to them..

The Center Point does seem to be the Hall of Heads.

These are likely a Image of the Founding Fathers of their Culture and Ways...  as Chris Seagers  (Production Designer) had said these beings are the Hierarchy!

Ridley Scott referred to them as the Apostles (those who pass on/teach their Rituals/Ways). The Wise Men (indicating they are Old and Wise) and Superior Beings (Superior to who? those Planet 4 Engineers?)

They also said the Place is where those Engineers Stored their History and Knowledge, a Library of Sorts.

They could indeed be the Elders, but we cant assume they would look exactly like those from Prometheus.

There appeared to be Patterns on the Floor, in the Concepts a Fire in the Center...  the Patterns do Look a bit like some Ancient Astronomical Star Charts and with the Fire in the Center we could Consider is this a Representation of the Galaxy?

So each of these  Apostles is given a Certain Sector of the Galaxy from which to Spread the Engineers Ways?

Planet 4 was considered their Home-world, Paradise and so its likely this was a Central Meeting Point for the Hierarchy where they would ASSEMBLE to Hold Meetings.

And so the Hall of Heads Room is also likely a COUNSEL of the Elders.  Kind of like a G7 and G8 Summit we have on Earth.

I don't see the logic in having living Engineers to experiment upon. That is precisely what David lacks: live specimens. That is the point of luring the Covenant crew to Planet 4: He needs a “mother”, a host.

If there had been living Engineers on which to experiment upon, you would not only get a xenomorph but an ultramorph. In Prometheus, it was easy to get a Deacon. No experimentation was needed. All you needed was the pathogen and a living host who then had sexual intercourse, and then yet another host . . .

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I have Read the TWO Drafts for Alien Covenant, they seem to imply when the Covenant Crew arrive that the Planet has more LIFE than we have in the Movie, it implies that a Variety of Life is infected with the Pathogen in that they have become Carries of the Neomorph Infection.

As far as Engineers some are Described as being Desiccated where you can see Skeletal Features and other Described as being Petrified, so what we can take from that is for SOME REASON the remains had DRIED out, is this a Effect of the Black Goo.... or just over TIME.... so there are Factors that are at play that would Usually cause Bodies to Decompose.... that are NOT present or happening on Planet 4.

So regarding the CLIMATE its as i said before the ONLY way all those Bodies would look the way they did IF its not a Immediate Effect of the Black Goo (Turning Cells to like Solid Matter) then the Environment must have become in a way that would allow for MASS Desiccation which would mean the whole AREA would have to have became DRY and ARID, and caused the Bodies to Dry out Fast, also a Lack of Organisms that would Consume Flesh would also have to NOT be Present.

If this had Happened, then those Bodies would NOT be of use to David we can Assume, not in that State, but as i said before, he could have GOT to the Bodies before they had Dried Out....  but then depending HOW quick they would Dry Out... or Decompose while In-Doors would leave David a Limited Time to Conduct his Experiments.... and Studies.

From Hatton and Hallets comments on their Work, they imply that David had Living Engineer Specimens.. it seems a lot of his Work towards the Xenomorph was based off Engineer Reproductive Cells...

Regarding the Stampede then YES some could DIE during that, but its a case of WOULD the Pathogen Effect a Dead Person.... especially soon after Death because Cells are Still Alive for some time... again this is something we can only Guess.

Regarding being Held Up.... we see the Engineers trying to RUN Towards the Cathedral, a Logical Reaction to the Bombardment for those in the Distance would be to Seek SHELTER...

There are a FEW shots in the Movie that appear to show the Engineers trying to get past a Barrier Gate that is SHUT, there are also a Number of Engineers right outside the Cathedral as the Bombardment Started.

So NOT all Engineers were in that Courtyard, i think MANY were, and as soon as they Noticed what was going on they would FLEE to Safety...

The Question is WOULD there be any Place Safe?

Could Tiny Particles of the Pathogen had entered any place they are Hiding?  Could some in the Distance had been Infected with a Small Number of Particles before they made it INDOORS?

And so what would be such Effects, the Same? would they Survive Longer, but be Dying? would being IN-DOORS had prevented those from becoming Desiccated?

Surely some Engineers got inside the Cathedral before the Doors Closed, we dont see any Bodies inside, but we have NOT seen every Inch of the Building and any Bodies could have been Removed by David..

Or Experimented on by him IF their Bodies are Less Infected or Remains are in better Condition to do Anatomical Studies and Experiments on.

From the Persepective of Performing Studies then the Bodies would ideally have to be in some kind of Good Condition for the duration of how long his Studies had taken.

From working and Experimenting with the Pathogen, it would be ideal to HAVE some Uninfected and ideally LIVE Subjects to Test on...

As we DONT have any Direct Scenes or Flashbacks then it leaves it open to debate...