Comments (Page 212)

Leto

Well, Dallas says: "Looks like it's been dead a long time. Fossilized"

I agree, how about a twist in AC2?

During the Space Jockey scene, Dallas was the narrator. If he said: "Looks fossilized". It's true.

Another point - Alien Covenant it's not a prequel to Alien. it's a prequel to AC2. The story is not finished. Trying to explain the Alien in terms of AC it is very far-fetched. Without AC2 - AC is just stand alone story, a sequel of Prometheus, without any connections with Alien.

dk

No, no answer to that riddle.

The question remains: Did something come up, or did something go down?

To the OT- I completed the game but did not read the novel. Question- was there any mention of how that hole was made in the floor? It was implied that a face hugger or chest burster created it.

As for "fossilized", they say it looks that way. The correct term might be mummified or that it's desiccated. The mummies we usually think of are about 4000 years old or so . . .

Much material is organic (leather, wool) so what happens, in time, is that body and clothes mould together as they decay.

The Space Jockey is in a climate where he is exposed to the condition of LV-426, which is harsh. The "doors" of the juggernaut are open. But he is not directly exposed to it. The hole down to the egg-chamber (where there is a different climate) can perhaps also affect the climate in the pilot room?

I’m wondering why the Derelict Space Jockey looks like he’s grown out of the seat, and the Engineer in Prometheus most definitely does not. Perhaps the seat stays ‘alive’ for a long period of time and sends out creeping tendrils that eventually engulf the pilot, wrapping him in a deadly embrace like ivy smothering a tree. Ultimately they might become one and the same ‘organism’...

 BigDave there may be a difference between the Engineers' suits, although they look similar, they may have different fabric and purposes. I think there is the Pilot suit, that grows out of the chair and the other suit hanging on board the Juggernaut or worn by the LV223 Engineers. If the latter are kind of chemical / antiexposure suits they might be more resilient and not change aspect / colour with time.

Regarding the spoon feeding novel, I do not agree with such approach and I believe it will not end the debates regarding the origin of Space Jockey and the xenomorph. But alas, the most important thing is that the beacon was switched off and the mistery of setting the Hadley's Hope next to the deadly ship is solved.

@Tiwaz

A lot has changed regarding the Goo and LV-223, each Draft/Movie things get changed... Originally (Jon Spaights Prequels) it seemed the indication was the Engineers encountered a Organism they then used their Creation/Hybridization Tool (Nano-Scarabs) on to Experiment and Create Various Versions of this Organism, the Xenomorph being ONE Variety they Re-Engineered.  It appears Prometheus had same intention only making it Vague....  but then we had EDITS and stuff...

There Definitely was a Connection between Black Goo and Xenomorph...   The Black Goo either came from a Xenomorph, or it leads to the Xenomorph as a result of Experiments or a Accidental Outbreak. Or they both came from another Source.   I am more drawn to that the Black Goo comes from Various Experiments they had conducted, but these all Started with some Organism they had NOT created... but they use the GOO to Experiment with this Organism.

But then we have that Curve-ball and i can Understand WHY... but then it would have made more Sense for David to Re-Engineer something Similar and Improved.. but ALAS!

At the Moment.... its a bit of a Mess... but there are ways around it... unless Disney Stick to Ridley Scotts Guns!

I think Regarding RS...

We have to Remember as of the Prequel Concept the Derelict had been on LV-426 for a Long Time.. Alien Engineers is a bit Flawed... its ENDING cant lead to ALIEN for a number of Reasons...  thus its intention was likely to show that a Similar Fate had happened to the Space Jockey Thousands of Years Prior.

Prometheus was more ambiguous but it was to indicate a Connection between LV-223 and Black Goo and Xenomorph but it was left with NO spoon Fed Explanation.

However RS had confirmed what happened and indeed as of 2012 the Space Jockey/Derelict was a Event that was Connected to LV-223 and happened within a Few Hundred Years of the Outbreak on LV-223 some TWO Thousand Years (give or take).  Thus its likely the Derelict had been Sitting on LV-426 for about 1800-1900 Years (give or take).

But ALAS... we got the Alien Covenant U-Turn which you have to wonder if they Considered the contradictions and things that need Clearing up by going the Route they had.. if we assume its that as of 2105 there is NOTHING on LV-426.

The Regenerate Comment was a bit ODD... we dont see Camerons Xenos Regenerate... or those Xenomorphs in Alien Resurrection...  maybe it takes Time?

The most Logical and Best way to Incorporate any kind of Regeneration would be that ONCE the Organism Dies... from its Body it will Decompose into a Mass that a Egg or Eggs will Grow from..

Making it ACT like a Cabbage ;)

Ridley Scott had said that the Xenomorph in Alien Covenant has got some way to EVOLVE before we get to the Bio-Mechanical Beast from ALIEN (read into that how you will)  Ultimately.... we have NOT concluded the Prequels and so things can Change... i would say more likely than NOT as Disney would want to Please Fanboys... and i would say even MOST of the Fanbase would think the idea of the Xenomorph/Derelict as NOT being Ancient is well DAFT!

I have not read the Novel (i tend to not read any, i have to maybe make time and buy some) so i cant speak to much about it. As in i can only take what is put down by those who have Read It.

so i think sometimes its a case of WHAT is Canon, i think certainly ALIEN exists within the Alien Isolation Time/Event Line (Reality) but as far as IF the Alien Isolation is Canon to ALIEN is up for debate, Alien Isolation kind of Gives us a Alternative Story but i do think its Considered Canon to a degree.

Maybe FOX use expanded Material to tease/explore a different outcome than the Prequels had teased and indeed what RS had indicated?

I think Firstly YES the Derelict/Space Jockey does-not look like its been there up to 17 Years, as far as when the Nostromo Crew Arrive...  we really dont know what route RS was going but if its that in the Year 2105 there is NO Derelict then its a case of would they just have us to have to Accept the AGE of the Ship as far as HOW-LONG is something that would be a Oversight?

The Prequels have NOT concluded and so that route can be contested and changed..  they have to find some reasonable explanations WHY the Derelict is Ancient though.. but again even if we get a U-Turn we could get a Lazy Oversight again.

But to cover the Isolation Novel from what you have mentioned.. There are some Flaws... the Space Jockey Prop is 16ft Long the Space Jockey does-not account for the hole of it...  Its is likely the Space Jockey was about 13ft but as we dont see the Legs.. it would be between 12-15ft. (which was what they was going for in the First Prequel Drafts). 

But thats just Nit Picking... so yeah the Space Jockey Certainly could have been 12-16ft.

The Fossil Comment could be because again Marlow had interpreted the Rib-cage as being part of a Skeleton... but we need to look at what is a Fossil, but more so maybe Scrub that... but consider what could the SUIT BE..

“it’s hard to tell where the suit ends and the wearer begins, but it’s not a synthetic. It’s definitely a life form”

As this is the Biggest Clue, it indicates its a Suit, one where its hard to make out what is the Suit and Wearer...

So it implies the Suit is Organic and Attached to the Wearer.  So this comment kind of Rules Out a Few Things but leaves others Open...

This is indicated by RS and attempted to be shown in Prometheus, but the Engineers Suits are somewhat more Mechanical than the Space Jockey Appeared.  (Maybe Technology Age Difference?).

I think its best i USE the Old Analogy i used on here in 2012 which is the Cactus...  The Suits could be somewhat Organic, like a Plant (HR Giger said the Derelict was likely Grown like a Plant).

If we look at a Cactus the Flesh (Green) is Leathery to a Degree, Smooth almost Synthetic Feel to it, yet also Organic.   When a Cactus Dies then its Color Changes and it withers away a bit.

Regarding HOW-LONG the Derelict had been there... well its a case of if Marlow thinks 30+ Years is a Long Time?

Surely he felt it looked like it had been there Longer than that!

I think the BIGGEST Flaw with the Space Jockey/Engineers as far as DATE! is the Suits.. we have to ASK this Simple Question.... WHY did the Long Dead Engineer Suits in Prometheus simply NOT look as Withered/Aged as the Space Jockey?  Yet they had been on LV-223 for 2000 years?

You could Conclude the Space Jockey must have been on LV-426 for Much Much Longer than 2000 years.... unless the Suits/Being are NOT the same or some other Explanation to HOW the Space Jockey withered away Quicker?

Would such a Conflict be Addressed? or a Oversight like the Size Difference?

@chli

The opening scene seems to show a Primordial World, a World that is in Change, it has Waters, Evidence of Shaping from Volcanic Activity and other Geology...   The World has Greenery though.. this indicates the WORLD is NOT Lifeless...

And so indeed the Scene would be a VERY long time ago

There is NO given Date... but it appears to indicate this Certainly is before the END of the Precambrian Era and so its likely the World had Basic Life, and Basic Plant Matter but that most Life occurred in the Waters at this Time..  The Engineers Sacrifice was likely what provided the Catalyst that Evolved Life so that it would become Complex and Evolve to then Live on Land.

So its likely IF this was Earth that the Seeding Pebble Ship had arrived between 0.5 and 2.5 Billion Years ago.  However its does-not mean this is Earth but its likely Similar had happened on Earth and so its also likely Earth may-not have been the First Place this had happened..  and so we can Speculate the Pebble Ship Certainly is a Technology that is more than Many Millions of Years Old, and indeed likely Billions.

Also a Good Point about the Juggernaught, they could have Multiple Uses... that makes Sense..

The Crossing Draft had indicated (which i felt was odd) that the Juggernauts had Rooms that Grew Fruit, and had Rooms with Running Water so that Dr Shaw could Eat, Drink and Shower etc...  This shows that John Logan had Thought/Discussed the idea the Ships have these.

My Prometheus 2 i worked on in 2013 (mainly odd Flash Back) had a opening scene like Prometheus only we go across a Land that is more Evolved (Trees, Wildlife) and we see a Shadow of a Ship.... Horseshoe.... we then see its a Juggernaught and we then go inside we see some Engineers walk over to a Cryo-Pod and inside is a Primate they are Transporting... we zoom onto the Primates Eye... then we Zoom Out and its Dr Shaw's Eye, the Engineers replaced by David... so begins the Prologue of David wondering what is she Dreaming!

The purpose of this was to Indicate the Engineers would come and take Life from Worlds (Earth) and take them to LV-223 where they Experiment/Evolve them and then Return them to Earth when pleased with the Result...

So yes i think the Ships can have more than a Single Use!

so the Planet 4 Engineers would maybe have NOT expected this Ship would be Carrying a Bio-Weapon let alone that it would be Dropped on them.

@daliens and ignorant guy.

Great Points and this is kind of what i was getting at, you TWO summed up it very well.

So Indeed daliens i remember those comments by RS and i had used them before when pointing out about Planet 4 and Paradise and how it seemed those beings are Chosen to be used as Sacrifices, and so they become Immortalized in that NEW Life is Created from their Body/Soul and maybe those Statues are Erected in Honor and Memory of those Sacrifices so they LIVE on and are Remembered in that way too.

Certainly ignorantguy i made this Topic more so to not suggest they are War-ships but to Question that maybe that is not what they were Intended for.. quite how you had mentioned a few things ;)

I think if we look at the Sacrificial Scene... imagine if the Substance in the Bowl was contained in Hundreds of Urns/Canisters instead?

Drop that on a World and we can assume the Life on that Planet would BREAK DOWN and from this would SPAWN new Life and so would be a kind of RESET switch.

So using the Sacrificial Goo on Earth would make more Sense as far as to DESTROY Life but then from this it would RESET back to the Sacrificial Scene Time... to a degree (would not be as Big a Set Back) and also dropping such a Reset Switch from the Juggernauts would be Efficient.

So i still suspect the Engineers or a Group of them had discovered something THEY had no part in Creating, and Encountering this Organism they saw some Potential with it and they began to Experiment with this Organism using their Genetic Engineering Tools.

Because to me looking at the Engineers and the Goo it makes more sense to Sacrifice more than ONE Engineer in some kind of Room/Container where you can Collect the Result and then place this into URNS and Drop them down onto Worlds to EVOLVE them and pass on Engineer DNA and also offer more Genetic Diversity.

Have a Problem with a Creation/World then it makes more Sense to FILL the Urns with Sacrificial Goo and Bombard them, thus RESET the World..

The using of Black Goo that can Mutate into Parasitic, Invasive and Aggressive Organisms just makes LITTLE sense.

UNLESS those Engineers wishing to use this have deemed that Evolving Life to take on those Traits is Ideal and seen as the Next Best Course of Evolution.

So they saw the Deacon, Neomorph, Xenomorph like DNA/Traits as being Superior and more Ideal to Evolve Worlds than Engineer/Humanoid DNA/Traits.

I think Certainly that could apply a little...  I think it depends on what we look at, if we look at the Sacrificial Scene then the Style on the Sacrificial Bowl could be a Much More Ancient System the Engineers used a VERY VERY Long Time ago.... before the Dawn of LV-223 and the Juggernaught Technology.

The Prometheus Head Statue looked like a Transition from that System to the More Common Engineer, so maybe the Sacrificial Bowl System Evolved to what was on the Head Statue that then Evolved to the Engineers Cuneiform they commonly use?

The Peculiar One is the URNS/CANISTERS its a little odd that the Urns seem to be suited to the Juggernaut as far as Storage and Deployment, yet the Cuneiform on those Canisters is VERY unlike that which the Juggernaught uses and Engineers Bases/Buildings.

Was there a Intention here?  was it just Cool to have different types of Writing from the Production Standpoint...  we have to ask WHY did the Urns not have the more Common Engineer or Sacrificial Scene Cuneiform?

Did One part of that Puzzle Out-date the rest? so for example when the Urns were Conceived the Engineers used that System and then a LONG time after they created the Juggernaughts and a NEW writing system and they simple decided it was too much HASSLE to Re-Label the URNS...

Or Vice Versa?

It would be like say RUSSIA designs a Large Craft with their Writing System throughout, but then then use for the Weapons say Bombs that have say Chinese all over them!

But this may make sense in that the Chinese could supply the Ammunition i guess...

Could the same be said with the Engineers, are the URNS supplied by another Race/Species or different Culture/Civilization of Engineers?

Are we looking at a Collaboration? or a Theft, or just a CANT be bothered to update with Newest Writing System on older stuff they had?

Nice Collection HOX

I think looking at both Replies so FAR then indeed the Main Point was WHAT kinds of Work by Giger would you like to had seen used or something based off in the Franchise...  and so we INDEED could look beyond just Xenomorphs, Neomorphs, Deacons and Hammerpedes and Various Morphs as such.

so what i mean is that HR Giger has a Armory of Art that Depicts a Lot of Surreal Crazy £%"£$"

You have the Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic Applied in a number of ways, you have Organic Beings and Material Connected to Mechanical Stuff were you can make out whats Organic and Mechanical but its still Disturbing and Surreal how they are being Merged..

And you have pieces with Various Organic Matter/Organisms being Deformed, Morphed, Warped and Merged and sometimes with Horrific looking Consequences... that would NOT look out of place in The THING!

The same could be said with some of Davids Artwork, which some are Experiments others likely his Wild Disturbed Imagination.

So there is scope to explore some F$£"% UP $"&%

Its a case of HOW do we apply any, for what Reason.

We see that Li Khang had done some Gruesome Concept Work, never-mind what Hallet and Hatton had came up with.  Thats without looking at HR Gigers Warchest of ART.

So indeed we could look at the Effects of the Black Goo and Mutations, and when looking at many works of HR Giger i am sure some of them could be Disturbing to be brought to Life....

The Egg Morph was kind of Disturbing, imagine something similar Explored now with the Technology and Effects we have nowadays.

Imagine if the Engineers that were Bombarded had NOT turned to like Stone, but there Bodies began to Deform, Merge with each other, leaving a Mass of Twisted/Merged Body's with aspects of the Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic or Certainly other Worldly Organic look (like a lot of Davids Drawings)..

Imagine a Group of Humans coming across such, and we see Protruding from this Mass of Merged Bodies/Matter some Eggs Sacks or Growths and Wonder what Horrors they Conceal ;)

You could Ponder what Failed Experiments, Mutations could look like some of HR Gigers works.

What other Species could be Explored that are very ALIEN...

So Certainly there is a LOT to draw inspiration from ;)

HR Giger has been used as inspiration for other Movies which include the Species Series, i think these would not look out of Place with the Franchise.. especially with the Engineers and Genetic Engineering and what Horrors could result from Experiments on LV-223.

I think its nice to discus what would really have been cool to see in the Franchise.... a PROBLEM of some becoming a Reality is the HR Giger Estate.. which is why some of Hatton and Hallets work got Canned.

I really would LOVE to have seen the Unused Ultramorph's that never made it into a Prequel that were based off Necronom IV

Hm, it's been a while since my last post here.

Anyway, I don't think the jockey is fossilized. The requirements for that aren't met. Like Gavin in another post, I think our big friend is mummified or sthing alnong those lines. But does that make it less old? No. Especially since there are hints all over for the xenos to be around for a long time (books etc).

IMO David recreated the Alien. I believe the goo always produces a Xeno, no matter who's fooling around with it. Thats what it is meant to do, so to speak.

Kinda like this:

1.)

Black goo is used in a rather uncontrolled fashion (Bombs, drinks, other ways of exposure) which leads to mutations and/or the breakdown of organic matter.

2.)

The mutated organisms develop more and more towards the final form, the xenomorph.

3.)

Once the final stage is reached it produces and uses the black goo in a "proper" fashion to create offspring.

That's at least what I get after reading Alien: The Cold Forge. There the facehuger doesn't use an embyo but goo to impregnate it's victims.

Well, the problem is that the scene at the beginning of Prometheus depicts what happened perhaps 3 billion years ago. I would also like to believe that it was on Earth and it's about the creation of life. In that way there is a circularity, the beginning and ending of Prometheus show that the Engineers created us (life) but that they can also end it: "Sometimes to create, one must first destroy".

The pebble spacecraft was 3 billion years ago. Something must have happened with their technology since then . . .

Why not see the juggernaut as just a means of transportation through space. The cargo hold could as well contain seed, plants, animals as well as the deadly pathogen . . .

Ridley has contradicted himself over the years, so I'd take his statement with a pinch of salt. For sure, David tampered with some genetics to make the particular Xenomorph we saw in Covenant. That doesn't necessarily mean it's the same beast we saw in Alien and Aliens.

Come to think of it, Ridley has said some pretty daft things. On the Covenant commentary, after the Xenomorph gets minced, he says that it could regenerate itself from one of its detached limbs! Ho ho, he's probably been watching too much Carry On Screaming, where Oddbod regenerates from a finger!

IgnorantGuy

At least two people have now "misread" the age of the Space Jockey. Both of them were accompanied by two other people (who didn't contradict them) which makes 6 people.

I might add that Russ and Anne Jordan also saw "the mummified bones jutting out of its exosuit, and the hole behind its ribs". So there must be some kind of mass hallucination . . . :)

I care if the xenomorph is a) an old species (discovered by the Engineers) b) created by the Engineers or c) created by David.

The problem is that 20th Century Fox doesn't seem to care . . .

There is, of course, a point in making things ambiguous. It keeps an interest going. But, the problem is that Ridley Scott doesn't seem to want ambiguity, because he's said that David is the creator of the xenomorph. 

I have a lovely biomechanoid print in my garden room, hot from the Swiss Giger Musem. The underwater girl is so hot, I'd love to see her in a sequel.

(In case you're wondering, the other pieces are a part of the Prometheus set and a production storyboard from AVP).

chli You have missed my point. I was only trying to find ways how David could fit into the picture. As many people said before, it could have been Dallas mis-reading the age of the fossil. But the author of the novelization seems to go by this interpretation, and it makes sense in the Lovecraftian setup (trope). But David being the one creating the xenomorph makes sense in the limited context of Covenant. And RS is not particularly interested in continuity, so why should we try to solve unsolvable riddles?

To clarify, I don't care who created the Xenomorph because it is a stupid monster at the end of the day, who is killed in almost every movie (perfect organism my @$$). I don't care who ends out to be the Space Jockey as it also does not matter. And I don't find Covenant David compelling at all.

PS. Let's not forget about the dreaded time travel!

IgnorantGuy

I'm afraid I don't agree with your interpretation. Marlow says that their's a hole in the ribcage and that's it's organic. "It's definitely a life form" and "it's not a synthetic".

But the biggest problem is the age of the Space Jockey. Both Marlow and Dallas says that the creature has been dead for a very long time and that it looks fossilized. We're talking millennia - not just a couple of years. This rules out David! If we go by this, David is neither the SpaceJockey nor the creator of the xenomorph.

BigDave Why do you even think that they waged wars like us? Firstly against whom? Other species, against themselves? Maybe they wanted to finish humanity because of it's warring habits?

As it was show the Juggernaut would have been a terrible vessel against other vessels. It is full of empty space and does not seem to have weapons to shutdown the Prometheus. A clue might have been how the Scorpion thing and David's ship crash in Covenant but that was not shown.

I cannot not recall exactly who said it, but the Juggernaut is the evolution of the Pebble ship, so the latter was probably out of use.

chli Yet, the same 20th C. Fox approved for Covenant (in Meet Walter) and it's novel prequel that the Walter line is part organic at least. So are you sure that could not be David in Walter's body?

“it’s hard to tell where the suit ends and the wearer begins", this is a very weird phrase as usually space suits cover the whole body... And if the suit is organic, the wearer inside could be a synth.

At least this confirm that the Jockey is a suit, not a giant elephatine alien. Yet they they made it even taller than it was...

We cannot be certain how the lore keepers think, but they could keep inconsistencies to generate endless debates on forums to keep the series relevant. Yet, we can see that RS did not imposed his ideas as there is no Covenant sequel and some things could be course corrections.

Coming back to an interview RS gave after the release of Prometheus:

"Fandango: Do you worry that you’ve lost the element of surprise that worked to your advantage with the original Alien? By now, we’ve seen numerous movies in the Alienuniverse, and like it or not, audiences are coming in with an expectation that deflates tension and suspense. Did you feel the need to pull the audience in to the story in a different fashion this time? 

RS: I was hoping I had with the fact that you have a sequence at the beginning of the film that is fundamentally creation. It’s a donation, in the sense that the weight and the construction of the DNA of those aliens is way beyond what we can possibly imagine …  

Fandango: That is our planet, right? 

RS: No, it doesn’t have to be. That could be anywhere. That could be a planet anywhere. All he’s doing is acting as a gardener in space. And the plant life, in fact, is the disintegration of himself.  

If you parallel that idea with other sacrificial elements in history – which are clearly illustrated with the Mayans and the Incas – he would live for one year as a prince, and at the end of that year, he would be taken and donated to the gods in hopes of improving what might happen next year, be it with crops or weather, etcetera. 

 I always think about how often we attribute what has happened to either our invention or memory. A lot of ideas evolve from past histories, but when you look so far back, you wonder, Really? Is there really a connection there?”  Then when I jump back, and you put yourself in a situation of a cave painting, you see that someone 32,000 years ago is showing me a little man sitting in the darkness, using a candle light that is fat from a creature he killed and ate. And in the darkness are two or three other family members whose body heat is warming the cave. But he has discovered that from a piece of this black, burnt stick, he has discovered that he can draw pictures on the wall. In essence, you have the first level of emotion and a demonstration of entertainment, right? Because he’s drawing brilliantly on the God damn wall. Now, you put yourself into that context, it’s 100-times bigger than Edison. And people don’t go back to the basics and ask, “Holy shit, what gave him that knowledge, that jolt to not scribble on the wall but draw on it brilliantly?”

...the plant life, in fact, is the disintegration of himself.

We can safely assume the planet 4 Engineers welcomed the Juggernaut as they were waiting that one of them would be taken and donated to the gods in hopes of improving what might happen next year, be it with crops or weather, etcetera. 

Were they the originals in a way of the original genetic material used to seed all the other worlds by gods or beings superior to the Engineers?

Can we exclude the possibilty that a faction of the Engineers visited Earth and had a major influence in the evolution of humans, by genetic manipulation and later by sharing knowledge with the first humans, like Prometheus? If this was done without the approval of the other Engineers it is logical that once they found out a competitive civilization evolved on Earth, that would sooner or later threat the universal order, they would want it destroyed.

Did the Engineers seed other worlds for themselves? If this is the case, they would not want humans on their worlds, unless they needed slaves or subjects for experiments. But they did not seem to need slaves or lab animals. So the humans might have been an accident or most probably a wrong doing by some faction of the Engineers. 

Aliens DC is the only way to watch imo.

If nothing else, it illustrates how languages/stories/facts can get distorted over time and interpretations become way off base?

This might be OT but I can't help but see Giger influence in RE Code Veronica X. 

Ha Ha Certainly ;)

Then i wonder how that effects ALIENS next time they see that ;)

I think when looking at that Question again... The Destruction of Life so they may Re-start again, then it is a Flawed way to go about it..  Especially if you are Genetic Space Gardeners and this is a IMPORTANT part of your Culture/Agenda.

It really depends on what we look at regarding the Black Goo and in Prometheus it appeared everything that came into contact with the Substance just got Evolved/Mutated into something that Carried Some Traits of the Deacon (well similar Traits it shared).  However the Engineers could also have shown signs of Breaking Down like the Sacrificial Engineer but at a Slower Rate.  a lot about the Black Goo was Ambiguous.

The Earlier Concept with Alien Engineers and the Scarabs was more Clearer...

I used think/remember this was a Female Primate (Mandella Effect?) but having checked out TWO drafts online (Quicker than on my Hard Drive) it mention's a Primitive Woman and a thing to NOTE is before the Sacrificial Scene the World has NO signs of Civilization so this Female is either a Earlier Primate Part of the Puzzle or a Cave Woman... 

Either way its to indicate the Engineers Sacrifice is what Evolved this Primitive to more Modern Human.

Our Next Encounter with the Scarabs..

We then see Fifield again latter...

Which when we consider BOTH together it implies the Scarabs Pass On/Inject the DNA of a Organism they had Consumed and this Evolves the Organism that is Injected with the DNA/Traits to become a Hybrid.

Primitive Woman + Scarab (Consumed Engineer) = Primitive Woman/Engineer Hybrid which is our Ancestor.

The Fifield Event seems to be another Injection/Evolution but this time with Xenomorph like Traits... only these Scarabs came from a Vase/Urn.

I know Prometheus is a bit Different, with the Black Goo, but we Certainly see the Sacrificial Goo breaks down the Engineers DNA but then this is either Reformed into Building Blocks of Life, or Infects Basic Life to Evolve it.

The stuff in the Urns appears to just Imprint Xenomorph/Deacon Traits... (maybe it came from a Sacrificed similar Organism).

Thanks for Baring with us ;)

Why i mention this on Context is that IF the Goo works like the Scarabs, then would surely DROPPING down either Urns of the BASE/SACRIFICIAL GOO or the Results of Sacrificial Goo + Engineer be much better way to RESET a World rather than Dropping a GOO that would Create Horrors like the Deacon, Hammerpede and Neomorph etc?

But then we have Alien Covenant with the McGuffin Radical AI Goo which can be a Lazy or Convenient way to make the Goo do what ever you Program it to do.

Which then leaves us asking WHY the Engineers were Calcified/Petrified and WHY the only other Black Goo Bombardment Result we see is the Spores (However i feel they are a Result of Unused Urns that leaked into the Water Stream on the Mountain over time and infected Fungi!

If thats Correct then it shows the Black Goo could be Programed to Simply Seek out Certain Life, Replicate and Replace all Cells with Calcified/Petrified Cells. Which actually would make it a GOOD TOOL for Eradicating Life and leaving a World then Fresh to Start Again.

Regardless... i still think if we Consider the Sacrificial Scene and a Engineers Broken Down Material was Collected into Containers and these were Dropped onto Worlds, this would make a more Fool Proof and Efficient Seeding Method.

I think thats one of the things that cant be Proved or Disproved either way, well certainly as far as the USE of the Juggernauts.

A few things to remember with the Sacrificial Scene is that Ridley Scott said it did-not have to be Earth, which with his other comments about the Space Gardeners implies that the Engineers have used the same Ritual on other Worlds, likely Prior and After this had been done on Earth.

Ridley Scott has a few times over the years said the Engineers Return to Check on their Creation and IF they deem that their Creation has not turned out to Plan or are behaving in a way that goes against what the Engineers deem Appropriate.... then they would ERADICATE Life and Restart again...... Bit of a Flawed Approach Especially Considering the Black Goo and Effort that had gone into Creation of Life, not just Humanoids on a World.

But in Context to your Question, we had RS say before in 2012 about the Engineers Destroying Civilizations and he even thew ATLANTIS into the Equation... which was a indication that the Engineers could have been Responsible for the Disappearance of Atlantis and its Civilization... to make room for OTHER replacements.

This seems a Indication that there had been Prior Civilizations on Earth that were Eradicated.

Regarding the Juggernaut in this Context this is UNKNOWN!  However RS had mentioned in 2012 that the Engineers Technology is MILLIONS of Years Old, but this was never clear as far as Juggernauts? or the Seeding Pebble Ship either.

I guess something to Consider would be IF they had used the Pebble Ships to Seed Life on Earth, and the Earth was as that Planet Appeared in the Prologue, then its a case of WHAT does this Scene Show?

The Planet had Plant Life so we are talking IF it was Earth or Regardless that it Certainly was NOT Billions of Years prior.   It could be that the Engineers Sacrifice was the Prelude to the Cambrian Explosion and so could be when more Complex Life began... but it could also be the Engineers Sacrifice would have been at other Periods of the  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proterozoic  and so IF we assume this happened on Earth (Sacrifice) then the Pebble Ships would have been around for over 500 Millions Years and maybe even over 2 Billion Years ago.

So all this could maybe Prove is the Pebble Ship/Sacrifice (if applied to Earth) had happened over 500 Million years ago and thus that Technology and Engineer Race are over Half a Billion Years Old...  it is NO indication to WHEN they had Obtained/Created the Juggernauts however..  But we could Speculate they are Millions of Years old too.

Is there a way to prove or disprove the Juggernaut destroyed life on the planet prior to the Engineer drinking black goo and "seeding" it?  

Looks like the theatrical cut. They should play the Director's Cut just to mess with the casual fans (I don't remember seeing THAT) :D

Certainly they are some Very Valid points, they are things i have discussed before and what kind of draws me to thinking those SHIPS are NOT Military.

But thats maybe for another Topic ;)

But Planet 4 does show us those Engineers are welcoming the Ship back, they seem of NO Concern about the Ship and what it can Carry, which means maybe they are Very Confident that NO-ONE would be able to Hijack their Ships....  and No Concerns that any of their Own kind would Turn Up and USE the Bio-Weapon on them.

So this would indeed imply that as FAR as they are aware there has NEVER been any Rebellion/War against another Faction or if ONE  had happened it is Considered LONG over and so No Concerns.

But there could be other Reasons......

something to Consider is that what we have is Planet 4 seems to have ONLY the One City where these Engineers all Choose (or maybe dont) to Stay, a Single City that at its CENTER they have a HANGER for their Military Ships.

The Engineers in Prometheus was Considered to be NOT so Stupid to Store/Experiment with the Black Goo on their Home-World and so what does that mean for the Ships in the Hanger, are they ONLY Permitted to Land if they have NO Bio-Weapons on board?

Another Question would be if these are GARDENERS of Space then where would they Store the SEEDING SHIP?

Regarding the Hanger and Juggernauts as these were shown via a Deleted Scene, it could be Considered that they MAY-NOT be Canon, in that maybe we have to Accept the Hanger only allows for ONE ship?  But then the Deleted Scene could apply as it Certainly would have been Part of the Original Idea.

It was indicated (i cant remember who by, i think in the Novel?) that the Ships had been Grounded Following the Bombardment as a Safety Procedure.  So that Nothing could TAKE-OFF (likely to Spread the Infection).  While going OFF-TOPIC... is it a case of Permanently or a Set Time and if so could this be Overwrote as far as Protocols. 

I would say its more Logical that the Scorpion-Ship had something to do with the Control and Once this was Incapacitated it Rendered the other Ships Useless.

"I guess only David could tell us more about the Engineers"

There is quite a lot that we DONT-KNOW and that could be Explored, i hope we get to Discover more about them.

Who knows what Explanation if Any that are given to the Differences, there could be Many Different kinds of Engineers. Indeed Ridley Scott had said more than ONCE that those LV-223 are the like the Military, but years ago he also said this in regards to them, indicating the Elders/Sacrificial Scene are the Space Gardener Variety (yet they all looked the Same).

Back to the OT and the Differences, i think maybe as the Prometheus Engineers (well Sacrificial) lacked any Nipples and they look different, to our Planet 4 ones who have Females and Infants... then i think it is Plausible that those Prometheus Engineers are a Enhanced Variant, they could be CLONED Soldiers, or Engineered like the Replicants were.

We have to remember the ship piloted by David was welcomed warmly by the planet 4 Engineers. So I believe if the LV223 Engineers were soldiers, they were their soldiers. Not seen as enemies on planet 4. What was with all the ships from the underground hangar, under the plaza? Were they grounded there following a peace treaty, were they for defense?

I guess only David could tell us more about the Engineers.

I can pretty easily see how a king would fit into a hive, and how it'd work out well. It may seem unneeded- and that's because, well, technically it is! But just because a hive can well survive without one, doesn't mean he couldn't bolster it well. Queens, by official math shown in the second movie's trivia, lay 15 eggs per hour. That adds up real fast given they're laying constantly, and each and every egg not just needs a host, but the resulting Xenomorph is going to need food, water, and space to live like all the others. While more numbers means more Warriors & Drones to hunt for prey & hosts, it also means they're stretching themselves thinner to cover enough area to find all that food. A bigger hive is both more powerful, and yet, more potentially vulnerable. 

So what good is a King? A king can not only pair with a Queen to increase potential for royal offspring (she seems to mostly suppress her own genes for that to make normal workers, so adding his own would help up chances) which helps the species populations and hive numbers on that planet. This also gives potential for a Queen to become an Empress, if she can stay dominant over her neighboring daughters. He's a walking tank standing between the hive and any big threats. And, though warriors are plenty good at hunting, it doesn't hurt to have some extra muscle to take down bigger, better quality prey for the ravenous swarms. 

The hive doesn't NEED a King to survive. But he could definitely be helpful. He could definitely make a situation a lot scarier for anyone facing down that hive. If he helps a Queen become an Empress, well, that's even more fun potential.

I also kinda imagine him being akin to a bigger, better Praetorian in terms of ranking- he's not there to contest authority. There's no point- he can't lay eggs, he doesn't have telepathy or the right pheromones, he can't run the hive. But he is there to defend the Queen and keep others in line for her. Help keep it running smoothly. Like a second in command, the muscle for the brainpower of the operation. The hive is still a monarchy.

Perhaps less why, more, why not? It could work, and it could be great.

I think back to the OT....

Then indeed its been a Process Regarding the PLOT of those Eggs...  Starting from Starbeast... but i think we need to ignore that... and just look from  ALIEN and then it does appear that Ship had been there for MUCH longer than 17.5 Years or Less.

The Prequels began to Indicate a Connection between the Space Jockey and Xenomorph, and while Prometheus Toned down some stuff, Alien Engineers and Prometheus had indicated the Xenomorph was Related to Experiments Carried out on Outposts from Thousands of Years ago.    THUS implying the Derelict had been on LV-426 well the Xenomorphs had been around for WAY before Prometheus. 

Ridley Scott even explaining the Space Jockey Event as it was not Spoon Fed on Film, and RS had indicated the Event was connected to the LV-223 Experiments and the Derelict had been on LV-426 for about 2000 Years. (give or take few hundred)

BUT ALAS...

We while this seemed to be the case Prior to 2015, things changed and we got Alien Covenant where it seemed to imply that DAVID had been the Creator

Ridley Scott again came in and Confirmed this to be the Case.

HOWEVER...

There are a Few things that Give those who dont see the Xenomorph as being a Creation of David's some Hope/Proof that the Xenomorph was NOT created by him.

1) Dallas had said the Space Jockey was Fossilized this is incorrect but Dallas is NO Expert, the Space Jockey would have been Ossified.  But then we have to remember the Space Jockey was considered a Space Suit (Concept and RS comments). Regardless the Scene does-not look like it was something that would Occur in under 20 Years. and so does HOLD some Weight (Ancient Xenomorph). 

2) The Mural in Prometheus showing a Xenomorph and Face Huggers, the Mural is Ambiguous and it simply shows a related Organism to the Xenomorph/Deacon with Alternative Face Huggers. it HOLDS no Weight as evidence (Ancient Xenomorph).

3) The Novel by ADF, which indicates that David discovers the Egg as it was...  However he did his Novel based of some of the Earlier Drafts which had NO indication of this and it was simply something that ADF added.  This means we maybe cant Consider this as Canon and its Questionable regarding if it HOLDS any Weight... But its something that cant be 100% thrown out. (But the Movie should be Prime Source of Evidence).

4) The Artwork of David his Experiments and some of these show more Classic Xenomorph and also the Classic Chest Buster, they are NOT so easy to make out in the Movie, or the Advent so much.. But they are work that David had apparently drawn..  So is this PROOF he had Contact with the Classic Xenomorph? maybe or maybe NOT...

They could be Aspirations to what he wants to Perfect or that the Classic Design was First and the one in Alien Covenant are what he had Evolved them to.  Does this indicate and HOLD Weight to the Ancient Xenomorph...  MAYBE!  But the Other Work Notes indicate that David had created all these things from Black Goo and Neomorph Spores and NOT from any EGGS.

So it seems likely that David had created or at least the Predecessor to the Xenomorph but this was created from the Neomorph and Black Goo that was NOT created by David.

But regarding the Eggs... it seems likely they Originated from David's Experiments on Planet 4, and are NOT a Ancient Organism.

This is the intention and indication  by Ridley Scott too....

HOWEVER.....

Disney own the Franchise, and would realize HOW Disappointing Alien Covenant was and how Fans are NOT happy with the Direction as far as ORIGIN or the Xenomorph and so there is EVERY chance that Disney could CHANGE the Origins to Please Fans... in order to NOT have Fans Boycott the Future Movies.

And so UNTIL we get a Conclusion or more Concrete Proof in Future Movies that either SETS IN STONE or Discounts that David is the Creator..

Then its up to Fans to as Dr Shaw says "Choose to Believe" in what they want.

My TWO CENTS... In Hindsight it was a Mistake... David should have Re-Created something Different and more Superior.  The ULTRA-MORPH

PS but i know the intention was Ultra-Morph is just a Xenomorph Born from a Engineer.

@Chli

Certainly there are various reasons for the Differences, the PLOT does indicate the Engineers Seed Many Worlds, Ridley Scott saying some Engineers return to Planet 4 as they periodically come back.  So there would be others out there the Question is are these Guys Seeding Worlds, Teaching Creations Knowledge or coming back from a Holocaust/Genocide of Worlds?

We have to Consider them in relation to God Mythos and so they would Certainly have SET Rules/Ways of Life that their Civilizations would Adhere too both Engineers and other Humanoids.

We could Ponder if those Worlds are KEPT a Certain way, and are Nurtured/Taught to Live a Certain way, we dont know how Long the Engineers Spend between Visits but it could be Hundreds of Years, if its Thousands then the Potential is there for some Worlds to Decide to LIVE differently than they had been Created for.

This Certainly would Warrant the Hierarchy to go and change their Ways and to have a LAST RESORT.

We could also Wonder if other ENGINEER Worlds through-out the Galaxy all SING/DANCE to the Same Tune, so they could have Conflicts with Each other... Certainly could have happened in the Past... and for the Hierarchy then the Creation of a Military to Put things in Order would be IDEAL.

I think we need to LOOK at the Differences, and then LOOK at the Engineers as being a Race who like their Genetic Engineering and then LOOK at Mankind in this Context!

There has been a number of Sci-Fi about the Creation of Super-Human's and Super-Soldiers. It was something that the Nazi's had planned to do. 

If you was a Government/Country who wanted the Edge over your opponents and your Scientist could Genetically Alter Humans to make them 2-3 X Faster/Agile, 4-5 X Stronger, have them Feel NO Pain or Emotion. Have their Senses Improved to like 5X better.

Then on the Battlefield you would have a Advantage of Sorts based on LIKE-LIKE (Similar Armed Humans vs Super-Soldiers).

This would be similar to the Replicants being used like the Universal Soldiers... and so when looking at the LV-223 Engineers we could PONDER if thats what they are...  Enhanced Engineers for a Purpose.

A Problem with Creating Such Group would be IF they realize they are SUPERIOR and become Sentient, you would want some Safe-Guards like a ability to Control them, make sure they CANT Procreate etc.

I think maybe this could be somewhat is up with our LV-223 Engineers.

Something to CONSIDER... is that our Sacrificial Engineer appeared to look the Same.  And so this is where we could WONDER... is this another Purpose of those Enhanced Engineers?  or had those Enhanced Engineers decided to Sub-Create their own Creation (Mankind).

The Differences with the Engineers, and Ridley Scott then saying those on Planet 4 are the Originals does change things a bit.

IF the Elders Scene was Kept and RS never made any comment about those on Planet 4 being Originals, then we would be Drawn to those Planet 4 Engineers as being a Hybrid or Sub-Creation. It would indicate the Prometheus Engineers are Superior and there is NO difference between Sacrificial Engineer and LV-223 Ones.

IF the Planet 4 Engineers had similar Eyes and Marbled Skin as the Prometheus Engineers, then we would consider all the Engineers to be Superior and the LV-223 kind are just more Military Trained.

BUT... they are Different and if we take Ridley Scotts comments (have to dig them up) then it implies that the Prometheus Engineers are a Version that they had Genetically Enhanced, that they Genetically Engineered (from Embryo's) and so similar to Replicants... or that a Group of Engineers had decided to Enhance themselves.

I think in these cases, if we look at the Real Implications of Genetically Engineering/Enhancing Humans for a Purpose or a Group of Humans begin to Genetically Engineer/Enhance themselves....  then their is the Potential for the Enhanced Humans to see themselves as Superior and should be PLACED at the Higher Level than NORMAL Humans... what Massive Implications this could have?

A Part of me is drawn to maybe this being the WOLF and how they renounced their Ways.. (Genetic Engineering or at least a Certain Aspect of trying to Perfect something).

Regarding the WOLF... yes with David it appears it is the Xenomorph and his Lambs will be the Covenant Colonist.

Regarding the Engineers its more Ambigious... i think the WOLF related to the Genetic Experiment/Black Goo and maybe the Sub-Creation of the LV-223 Engineers?

But it could be interpreted that there SOLE Agenda was to Create Xenomorph Related Organisms that they then used others to Sacrificed themselves for.

This could be looked at and made to FIT with the whole ALIEN Plot as far as Xenomorph... but it kind of Conflicts the Gardeners of Space and HOW the Engineers interacted with Mankind in Ancient History Plot and also looking at certain things with Planet 4 and considering the Prometheus Mythos and Fallen Angels.

I am led to Ponder that some Engineers had grown fed up of their Purpose to Serve, and at some point had came into Contact with a Parasitic Life-Form that they then saw the Results as Intriguing and so they began to Experiment with this and Worship the work they had done and Intended to Populate this more Perfect DNA across the Galaxy instead of using the Engineers DNA.

Like i said and Ignorantguy has pointed out, it comes down to the Writers NOT really thinking about HOW can one Movies Ending lead to the Next without any Conflicts.

The Plot of Alien Covenant had indicated that it took David and Dr Shaw quite some time before she could TRUST him, for this you needed PLOT Conveniences... for those they needed to have Salvaged Stuff from the Prometheus. and so as Ignorantguy also said we have to look at where LIKELY these could have came from.

They could have been Salvaged from the Wreckage but i find it UNLIKELY

But for Plot Convenience and Lazy Writing and Oversight it cant be ruled out!  The other OPTION is the Life-Boat and indeed Dr Shaw had gone there for some Supplies as she was running low on Oxygen.

A thing to remember is WHEN/WHERE did Dr Shaw make her SOS Warning?  If this was while on LV-223 then what we have to Consider is that this SOS was DAYS after the Prometheus had been Destroyed.

So its likely she had gone back to the Life-boat for items she may need, this is based on what would account for the Plot Elements that we saw in The Crossing. It is a MASSIVE Convenience that the Photos of Dr Shaw and Holloway were on the Life-Boat but it was also a Massive one IF they had Survived the Destruction of the Prometheus and by that Virtue if the Photo's Survived then other things could have too.

It all is just a Oversight to suit the PLOT of The Crossing.

"A "best of both worlds solution", would that really satisfy everybody?"

Well the ANSWER would be NO!

I dont think anything will please everyone.. and Disney would have to look at what may please MOST... but FOX made this mistake with giving us Alien Covenant as far as bring back the Beast.

They could CAVE IN and give us a Movie that goes to LV-223 and Discover in a Complex they have a Queen and that the Queen Actually Produces a Nano-Parasite Organism and these then Gestate into Xenomorph Eggs.   Which then could reveal the Engineers saw that these Parasites could also Infect a Organism Directly and Evolve them into a Hybrid.

And so the Engineers just Experimented on these Parastic Procreative Organisms the Queen Produces to make the Black Goo.

They could turn the Sacrificial Scene to actually being the Engineers Procreating Xenomorph related Horrors and NOT seeding his DNA.

Then we would get a Indication the Xenomorph is ANCIENT and Natural and the Engineers merely just Experimented on them... or SERVED them... such a Plot Change could please a lot especially those Cameron's Aliens Fans..

But even changing things may NOT work if the Movie is POOR and there would be some Fans who still would not like that Direction...  You simply are NOT going to please Every Fan....

I now think they have a even more Difficult Task to do that NOW, considering the David Created it Plot.

Its a Question of do they TRY and please as many Variants of Fans, but maybe a "Best of Both Worlds" would not work.... do they Continue with the David Creates It Plot which many Fans may Boycott or indeed just Pretend it NEVER happened.... or do they Find someway to show the Xenomorph was Ancient.

I have had a FEW ideas who to do that....  also considered before Christmas a QUEEN as the Origin like Plot as vaguely covered above... i am NOT a Fan of it, but i thought it out as maybe a way to make it about some Related Organism as the Origins of the Goo/Eggs. as maybe that would please more?

Dark Nebula "the ill fate inhabitants" , well David would have snapped a neck right there.