Comments (Page 241)
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I think there are a lot of Clues that should not had been clues, but as they are there they can be interpreted and used as such when they could be merely Red Herrings.
IGNORING what ADF had put in his Novel (it would be interesting to see what made him put that, his idea/interpretation or was it in a early draft?).
If we throw that out, then Davids Workshop still has drawings of a Classic Chest Buster? Evidence of David actually discovering the Ancient Xenomorph? Or did he create that also but chose to Evolve it to his Alien Covenant version... but then WHY does the Less-Evolved one (well his prior one) turn up on the Derelict?
But then in his Workshop is a VERY Bio-Mechanical Specimen as far as a Drawing that is more Mechanical than the Xenomorph.
Did David Create this? Did the Engineers? or was it just something David had in his mind, that he just drew for Fun or as a aim to achieve... doing his own Concepts for what he may wish to achieve?
If so could the image of the Classic Xenomorph and Egg be the same?
If Alan had came across such sketches when working on the NOVEL they could have lead him to ASSUME that David discovers the Preexisting Egg.
These are concepts etc by Hatton and Hallett and many may have been added to the Work-shop for nothing more than the LOOKS COOL effect, which could lead us to some conclusions that are not intended. (Prometheus Mural maybe likewise).
Davids notes do talk of a Ancient Cruel Sacrificial Ritual, but gives no indication to what... so its ambiguous... was this for Xenomorphs or Similar, for Black Goo Experiments (i mean they are going to need Test Subjects) or could it have been to Seed Worlds like the Sacrificial Engineer?
Who knows...
I find it VERY Stupid for the Engineers to contain and use Xenomorphs on that Planet if it is their Home-world... you would expect them to take Sacrifices to say another World like LV-223 and conduct them there!
But i guess we cant rule such things out!
My interpretation of Planet 4 and the Hanger etc and Juggernauts Purpose is VERY different to the Derelict. And well also what they ended up using them for in Prometheus... i saw them Originally as maybe Advanced Seeding Ships.
I think LETO ambiguity is not a problem as long as they had a idea of how A connects to Z, but a lot of it seemed they never had a Real Solid Plan... sometimes people like Mystery some like Spoon Feeding.... i think they needed the Balance, and while study of Prometheus and comments by Production and other things can give us a better understanding... Most People are just going to watch the Movie and not bother with extra material (or Re-watch it over and over) and so i feel Prometheus was just a bit too Ambiguous.. but as Lindeloff had said... if it was NOT so then there would not be so much to debate.
"A weed is a plant just like a flower, but to the gardener, a weed is less desirable than a flower "
Thats a good point Gavin and also Leto's reply, its Ambiguous to what connection such Gardening Involved... i feel anything that Steers More closer to Ancient God Mythos and Steers away from something VERY ALIEN could be seen as a Distraction from what ALIEN was about.
There are repeating Multiple Layers of this Creation ARC... some were expecting something that would link more to a SOUL, a After-Life and meeting more God-like beings... to me Prometheus was not about that but i wont go into detail because well it would require a long post thats OFF TOPIC and would not appeal to many.
I think something more Surreal, Lovecraftian should be explored something Horrific.... But i am not quite buying the MILLIONS of years old RACE who created the Derelict and Eggs, then used the Engineers and used them to Create Mankind all for the Purpose of Harvesting... because well we have to assume this Process takes Millions of Years...
Unless our Xenomorphs or whoever Created the Heavens and Earth and Mankind 6000 years ago LOL
I think we could look at Planet 4 as a Garden of Eden, where those beings were Taken to then allow for Mankind to had existed but depending how we explore this PLOT, it really comes down to what role the Xenomorph had... and for some Fans the whole Gods and Creators is just taking the Franchise away from ALIEN... the whole Xenomorph was a Engineered Weapon Created a Long Time after the Engineers went around Seeding Worlds and so the ALL-TIME Agenda was not... Seed Worlds, to then come back Tens of Thousands or Millions of years later to USE them as HOSTS.
Which i think does-not set well with some fans... but the Prequels was intended to NOT be a ALIEN movie as in cover in depth the Xenomorph... it was to go and do its own thing about the Engineers and Creation, but this BOLD Plot was a bit of a Poisoned Challace...
A distraction for some from the XENOMORPH and maybe in Hindsight the Space Jockey should have been some Ancient Race, FAR FAR away from Home with that CARO and for some Mystery Reason.
The Problem is HOW do you introduce Humans? It would have to be they just by Coincidence appear around LV-426 and discover a Outpost or the Derelict, or they detect the SOS and Investigate... which well was already done in ALIEN.
IF the Space Jockey was a Alien Species who are NOT Connected to Earth, and he was carrying a Bio-Weapon then we have to ask for what Conflict and Where, and where are these WARING Races or Factions.
Do we explore them? How do you introduce Human Characters, and WHY have Mankind not came across any of this Conflict in the Franchise.
IF the Space Jockey are just seeding the Xenomorph for some other Reason, we have to ask WHY and for what Benefit, if its to spread the Xeno across the Galaxy then HOW far had they got in the Galaxy and WHY had they not ever managed to be successful with Mankind.
The Creators/Gods Plot allowed them to introduce Humans via Dr Shaw and Holloways Findings.. The Potential at some point they wished to UNDO us with a Bio-Weapon that proved to be Costly to themselves which they maybe then Abandoned and just in their Ignorance and Naivety thought that they would just let Mankind ROT on Earth, as its not like without the Engineers we would NEVER evolve to the point of being able to Travel the Stars, and so again another Hubris. (First messing about Creating Horrific Bio-Weapons).
There is so many different routes to explore the Agenda of the Space Jockey Race... thats its hard to come up with a PLOT that will please everyone... WHY i canceled my projects.
I will throw this into the debate!
The Source i had seemed to claim Mankind played the Bigger Role in the Xenomorph and we are 4th/5th Generation of Mankind, the Engineers are Genetically connected to us, they (i assume LV-223) are more in common with David than us... The Engineers are NOT the Gods...
Sounded a bit ODD to some when i passed that on in early March 2015
But then after Alien Covenant over 2 years latter we had these concepts by TWO Artist (Steve Messing and Wayne Haagg) and we have to ASK... what the Hell did these mean?
Those beings DONT look Engineer but HUMAN.
There is actually evidence in Alien: Covenant that David did not create the Xenomorph. This was brought to my attention in a Youtube video which shows that the novelization for the movie was based on more than merely a draft of the script and that a component of the Engineers having worked on the Xenomorphs before Davids alleged creation of the Xenomorph was present on set in a prop, which leads me to believe that its possible the assertion in the novelization that David continued the work of the Engineers may have even been filmed...
The above egg and its Facehugger are said to have been too aggressive by the Engineers and was euthanized, likely leading to the development of the urns and glass vials used to weaponize the Xenomorph in a more controllable and safer (for the LV-223 Engineers) form.
It is from this egg that David reversed the Engineers work, recreating the egg and Facehugger from the black goo he was familiar with.
Which ties into the theory that the Engineers gathered the eggs from LV-426, further supporting that the derelict Juggernaut on LV-426 is the source of the Engineers weapon and that there could be more Space Jockey Juggernauts with cargo bays full of eggs out there.
@ Leto,
This is, in part, the fault of Damon Lindelof and why he was brought on to rewrite Prometheus - to give the movie what he and J. J. Abrams call the "Mystery Box" effect, a technique they also famously used in Lost... that worked out well for Damon (-sarcasm-)
@ BigDave,
Ridley Scott's comments that the Planet 4 Engineers predate the LV-223 engineers makes sense and fits in with my deduction of the clues we have seen thus far of the Engineers. I have mentioned repeatedly my belief that the Engineers are merely primitive humans, so let me elaborate. First my theory/deductions...
Many thousands of years ago a Juggernaut either landed on Earth or was discovered on Earth by Paleolithic/Neolithic humans who were then taken to Planet 4 and offered paradise in return for continuing the work of the fallen Space Jockey on LV-426, to spread the Xenomorph; the humans accepted. The humans were evolved to their pinnacle form, becoming Engineers and a few were chosen/blessed and granted bio-mechanical augmentations that would allow them to interface with the Juggernauts and fulfill their part of the deal.
Fearing/respecting the Xenomorph the Engineers on Planet 4 devised a method of weaponizing the bioweapon (in a bid to protect the augmented Engineers), following which the augmented Engineers then gathered eggs from the ill-fated derelict Juggernaut on LV-426, transported them to LV-223 and began weaponization of the Xenomorph eggs, likely unleashing them on other worlds that were full of life. Periodically the (augmented) LV-223 Engineers would return to Earth to add to their numbers on Planet 4 and to sacrifice a chosen few to their weapon, testing it.
In time, the Engineers on Planet 4, having developed a civilized society (equivalent to bronze age humans, suggesting their artificial evolution was purposefully restricted to keep them primitive) began to view the part of the deal they had made with trepidation, eventually devising a way to alter the weaponized Xenomorph black goo into a catalyst capable of creating new life, rather than spreading the instrument of the death (the Xenomorph). With the LV-223 Engineers likely needing to be periodically draughted (accidents inevitably happen), Engineers that were more recently chosen to receive bio-mechanical augmentation would likely have been less devout than longer serving LV-223 Engineers in regard to spreading the Xenomorph.
Thus when the Juggernauts/Space Jockeys ordered Earth to be the next target for the weaponized Xenomorph, and with Earth being the Engineers ancestral homeworld the newly drafted LV-223 Engineers sacrificed their lives by instigating an outbreak of the weaponized Xenomorph on LV-223, believing the outbreak would decimate all of LV-223 Engineers.
2000 years later one of the long-serving LV-223 Engineers is awoken by his ancestral kindred; humans. Angry at the Engineers that instigated the outbreak for their heresy, upon realizing he had survived said outbreak and likely fearful of the Juggernauts/Space Jockeys, the last LV-223 Engineer hastily proceeded to carry out the order he had received 2000 years prior.
... sounds fanciful right, but there is evidence in Prometheus and Alien: Covenant that supports it all...
# Shaw and Fords sample taken from the decapitated Engineer shows that the Engineer was human, with Shaw later clarifying that said Engineers DNA predates our own.
# The earliest star map discovered by Shaw and Holloway was that discovered on the Isle of Skye, which was at least 38,000 years old (Paleolithic).
# The Engineers language is Proto-Indo-European, a human language developed and used on Earth 4700 years ago (Late Neolithic).
# With the exception of the Juggernauts and the biomechanical augmentations of the LV-223 Engineers, the Engineers repeatedly use Neolithic and Bronze Age technology - wooden flute, woolen cloaks, pottery bowl, pottery urns, the Engineer City, Planet 4 Engineer attire, etc.
# The decapitated Engineer, and his companions (as shown by the holographic recording in the LV-223 dome) were running to the source of the outbreak wearing their spacesuits/armor.
# The last ordered target for the black goo urns was Earth, this order was given at the time of, or prior to the outbreak that wiped out all but the last LV-223 Engineer.
# The Sacrificial Engineer was not an LV-223 Engineer but a planet 4 Engineer, as were the (deleted) engineers that originally featured in that scene.
# Advent relates that the Planet 4 Engineers renounced the Xenomorph, and discontinued their studies into the creature and its weaponization.
# The urns and glass vials used to transport and weaponize the black goo are both primitive technologies.
...Reportedly the substance consumed by the Sacrificial Engineer in Prometheus' opening scene is the same as that seen throughout Prometheus. The latter contaminates whatever it infects with genetic traits of the Xenomorph (Hammerpedes acidic blood, Fifield's originally intended mutation, Holloways uber-Facehugger child), which would mean the Sacrificial Engineer would have been seeding a planet of Xenomorphs, unless said scene occurred after the Planet 4 Engineers reverse engineered the black goo to create new life. Which aligns with the theory that Engineers are primitive humans and not the creators of life on Earth.
Also, Engineers being a few millennia old slaves sounds more plausible than being billions of years old creators capable of seeding life that will, billions of years later evolve to have a genetic match.
I know BigDave will remind us of Scott's statement of the Space Jockeys being space gardeners. But compare the perception of a gardener from the perspective of a flower, and that of a weed - to a flower a gardener is a giving god with the promise of new life, to a weed a gardener is the harbinger of death and destruction. A weed is a plant just like a flower, but to the gardener, a weed is less desirable than a flower because of their ability to propagate unchecked without the need of the gardener. To the Space Jockey's the Xenomorph is the flower, all other life are weeds.
Finally, some have mentioned that the Humans on planet 4 look more human than both the LV-223 Engineers and the Sacrificial Engineer. From a production standpoint applying and maintaining the level of prosthetics used for the LV-223/Sacrificial Engineers on a cast of 100+ extras would have been a logistical nightmare, thus the makeup effects used were simplified. With a budget of $111 million, Scott could have used CGI to augment the aforementioned actors to match the LV-223/Sacrificial Engineers, but instead wasted the money on the needlessly homo-erotic flute scene.
"Fans of Covenant seem to believe"
LOL thats got to be a small number ;) but i do think we could be onto this kind of path (HAD we had a continuation) and if we did would they address the Size Difference? Here is where (sorry if this goes off Topic) but this is were the Themes of Prometheus could be at play, and Agenda of David as far as RS comments about AI (Replicants) how the next movie would be about AI and not the Xenomorph, and "what kind of a world" would David Create, maybe looking into the Raised by Wolves Plot too..
RS said that Prometheus was about ( among other things) Immortality, now IF our Peter Weyland found a way to Transfer his SOUL into a Synthetic, then in effect Weyland would CHEAT Death and become Immortal, but failing to achieve this he had NO CHOICE but to trust Dr Shaw and her findings in that Meeting our Creators could Guarantee him his Immortality.
David has ONE arm... will he play his role with just that? So we could ponder that David could transfer his AI SOUL into another Synthetic thats a Bio-Mechanical Synthetic Construct. Or maybe into the Body of another being, be that one he creates, or one that the Engineers Create.
The Size Difference would be Problem... unless the Body David uses is LARGE. But i think the Size Difference would always be considered just a Oversight... and well the Space Jockey had GROWN out of his Chair! (Plot Convenience)
As for Option 2, i dont think there is much Harm and to me it does-not Ret-con Aliens or the Space Jockey, especially if we look at HR Gigers concepts.... The Space Jockey/Engineers were Intended to be 12-15ft Tall and its just a shame in Hindsight that Ridley Scott did not use any LOTR/Hobbit (Game of Thrones) effects to make our Engineers 10ft and its a shame that Alien Covenant they looked even more Human and had a lack of HR Giger/LV-223 Bio-Mechanical Technology.
"but merely primitive human slaves taken from Earth and given Paradise in return for continuing the Space Jockey races work."
I think similar to this is plausible... certainly as far as the Engineers being Created or Discovered and used for a Sacrificial Purpose... It really does depend on WHO is at the Top of this Hierarchy and their Agenda!
Then its a case of WHOEVER is revealed at the TOP, we have to ask WHAT connection they have to the Black Goo, the Xenomorph or what ever Organism it Originated from.
On one hand i see clues (Prometheus Themes and Agenda of the Alien Franchise) that at some point the Engineers or a Fraction had came across a Organism, and they had looked at its TRAITS as being something they could incorporate into their Genetics and Technology.
The Prequels could suggest a high indication of this... but this would certainly take the Origins to being FAR less ALIEN than most fans would like.
Introducing a Sinister Hierarchy and Agenda, and a ALIEN one, where our Engineers had STOLEN their Masters Technology would be a better route to take, was something like this considered? Who knows what a actual Prometheus 2 would have uncovered ;)
Regarding the WALTER-MORPH.... i would not rule out that this was the explanation for how Davids Organic Xenomorph gains its more Mechanical Aesthetics...
ELDEN in Fire and Stone was a Synthetic Construct and got infected with the Black Goo, so we cant rule out the reveal that WALTER or another incoming Synthetic are Part Organic/Part Synthetic
We have to remember David just needs to Perfect his Queen, and some may think we are going to get a Queen Xenomorph? Maybe that could not be the case.
Maybe they can use some unused concepts.. even if they are NOT from the movies... my Alien: Ascension/Absolution which was my work in Progress Alien Covenant 2/3 was to run with the unused ELDEN concept which was a Female at First!
@ chli,
That quote is unfortunately so ambiguous it can be interpreted in many ways.
"Sacrifice cleansed them of their sins"...
# They sacrificed themselves to give birth to their god; the Xenomorph, thus cleansing themselves of any perceived sin in life, or
# They sacrificed themselves to create life (Prometheus opening scene) instead of death (weaponized black goo) thus cleansing their sins of having once created said death, or
#The Engineers on LV-223 sacrificed themselves by instigating the breakout 2000 years ago, to cleanse themselves of weaponizing the Xenomorph that was to be used against Earth.
"Banish the wolf, and undo their creation"...
# Abandon their weaponization of the black goo turning it into the substance the sacrificial Engineer consumed, or
# Abandon the Xenomorph and reduce it to its core elements; the black goo
There could be other interpretations, but I think you get my point. Remember, one's truth is dictated by one's point of view.
@daliens,
Sorry forgot about this one.
"if the vessel was so advanced, why did she still need a primitive human as pilot, especially if the pilot was not the father or the mother of the offsprings? We have autonomous vehicles today and our space missions are without pilots."
Simple answer - control. If the Juggernauts are indeed sentient and/or living vessels as many of us believe, then would they trust such an autonomous vessel with the task of transporting the last remnants of your race, or the universes deadliest biological weapon. Most autonomous drones in use today, of which space missions could also be included are used for observation and the collection of data. However, despite that Predator Drones could be autonomously controlled they are still remote piloted by human pilots.
On the subject of whether or not the Space Jockey is a suit or a skeleton. If it is the latter we are pretty restricted to what Dark Horse comics called the Mala'kak...
However, if what we saw is, in fact, a suit, what is within can be almost anything. Which from a creative standpoint is much more interesting.
As for #3, besides how David would fit in the huge space suit and helmet, how would he attract a facehugger? At least so far, David's eggs have only triggered (opened) when humans (living, biological organisms) have come near them (Oram, Cole). They have ignored David.
There are some differences between the two Juggernauts, besides the cryopods, there is the system to release the bombs, unnecessary for the derelict, so one might be the bomber type, the other one, the military cargo carrier type, like these two:
The shape of the hold allows space for the cockpit to be lowered down, like in this schematic done by BigDave:
Regarding the space jockey and his fate, it seems likely (although the size isn’t right) that it’s supposed to be an engineer because of the likeness with the engineer in Prometheus. This engineer also raps himself up in the pilot chair of the juggernaut by the pyramid mound.
It seems probable that the space jockey left the pilot chair and went down into the cargo hold for some reason, got face hugged and when he woke up went up into the pilot chair again. Once there, the chestburster starts to make its way out and the pilot sets the warning beacon.
However, underneath the space jockey there must be a hollow space for the whole cockpit to be lowered down into. Also, the iris door must have room for the shutters to retract into. It seems that the hole should be further out, doesn’t it?
