Comments (Page 242)

Unless the Space Jockeys fate is shown in a future installment of the franchise, which might never happen, we could each argue our own theories until we are blue in the face. I could point out that the Facehuggers saliva would need to be variable, using weaker doses to subdue and access protected hosts (like Kane) with stronger doses to defend itself from possible predators.

There are also those that believe the hole in the platform was made by the Alien that birthed from the Space Jockey, and that Alien matured into a Queen and laid all of the eggs. Since Alien: Covenant there are some that now believe David becomes the Space Jockey and the Covenants colonists become the eggs. And chances are those that believe either of these or any other theory could debate with evidence as to why they believe their theory over and above any other.

This is speculation. There are some communities were members argue needlessly as to who is right and who is wrong, without realizing that everyone and no-one are both and neither. What I have always loved about our community, and why I have remained here for nearly eight years is that the Scified community understand this, and for the most part we can not only debate civilly but grow and adapt our theories over time from the assertions of others.

But, back to the topic in hand.

With Scott's prequels continuing to divide the fanbase, and because they seem to be, from Scott's comments, moving further away from the mythology of the Alien and toward chronicling David as a synthetic Lucifer, I still believe that Neill Blomkamp should make the next Alien movie, but that he should remove Ripley, Hicks, and Newt, and should focus the narrative toward Weyland-Yutani finally acquiring their prize only for the eggs, the subsequent birth Aliens being corrupted.

A very nice graphic novel, Gavin!

In This link you can watch the making of Prometheus, part 1.

https://youtu.be/O-MP4-Wu1Ec

Thanks, setaverde.

Glad to see more Ridley Scott fans around here.

Thank for the link to the graphic novel, Gavin, beautiful work!

I agree with you that David did not create the xenomorph,  at least he is not responsible for the eggs from LV426.

Regarding the Space Jockey's fate, I have some issues with the theory that the hole in the floor was created from the hold to the pilot chamber:

- the ship safety systems when carrying such dangerous cargo would not allow the facehuggers to walk freely through the vessel. For any failure of said safety systems the pilot would be warned and the back up systems activated. If we assume the pilot was ambushed while relaxing in his chair by a rogue facehugger, it means that ship was totally inadequate for the carriage of such cargo and the Engineers were bloody idiots that deserved their fate (so agree with David).

- I never perceived the facehuggers as being intelligent, they seem to act instinctively and usually leave the safety of the egg when they sense some host nearby, they have to be like that, for the highest rate of success of the xenomorph reproduction, otherwise facehuggers would roam randomly and die prematurely without accomplishing their mission. We've seen rogue facehuggers but only after an egg opened to a host, we could presume that the presence of a host can activate more facehuggers in a certain cache of eggs. To believe that a single facehugger voluntarily left the egg and made a hole in the ceiling of the hold, exactly where the pilot stood, would imply they possess the capacity to make an elaborate plan for their actions. 

- a facehugger would not make such a big hole through the deck by spitting on the ceiling, he would not need so much space to crawl into the pilot chamber and when I try to mentally picture such an action, a facehugger spitting randomly at the walls and ceiling, I find it rather amusing. Why would he do that? On the other hand, if we imagine an injured facehugger in a pool of acid blood on deck, the hole it would make would be considerably bigger, of course with the risk to penetrate the outer hull of the ship below, but since the ship crash landed, it leaves room for that damage to have occured shortly before the impact with the ground.

- the facehugger indeed melted through Kane's visor, but Kane was not harmed by acid at all, so probably that saliva was not as destructive as its blood and it all happened in a controlled manner, only the visor was damaged. If its saliva was as corrosive as its blood, it would have probably been lethal for the host and it would have defeated the purpose. So, could that saliva make a hole through a deck?

- in Alien3 there is some liquid spilling from the egg, it could have been that liquid responsible for the melting of styrofoam or plastic? Or it comes from the facehugger that cracks the glass from Newt's cryopod? I don't remember seeing a facehugger spitting acid,. it is the juvenile alien hidden in the duct that spits acid on Murphy, eventually leading to his death, but it does it in self defense, like a cat. We could speculate that both xenomorph and facehugger saliva have same corrosive effects,  but I pointed out above that facehugger saliva should have milder effects just because the facehugger has to attach itself to the face of a living host, without killing it, while the xenomorph is a fully developed weapon, everything that it is made of has the sole purpose to kill, including saliva.

I also believe that the scene from Alien Covenant, when Lope was attacked by the rogue facehugger was there to explain what could have happened to the pilot of derelict. The blood of the injured facehugger melted the stone floor.

Great visuals Gavin.

I can feel the loneliness of the Engineer.

What can i say... I'm a huge Fan of Ridley Scott work. 

About the film 'Alien' -1979, he is the director, therefore, the film is his recorded vision.

A film director is a person who directs the making of a film. A film director controls a film's artistic and dramatic aspects and visualizes the screenplay (or script) while guiding the technical crew and actors in the fulfilment of that vision. The director has a key role in choosing the cast members, production design, and the creative aspects of filmmaking.

 Under European Union law, the director is viewed as the author of the film.

The film director gives direction to the cast and crew and creates an overall vision through which a film eventually becomes realized, or noticed. Directors need to be able to mediate differences in creative visions and stay within the boundaries of the film's budget.

Great topic, daliens!

@ daliens,

There is one error in your interpretation of how the Space Jockeys fate unfolded...

The only hole in the floor was made when Ash tried to surgically remove the facehugger from Kane.

...the Face hugger was shown twice to have acid in its biology; in the above scene that you mentioned, and when it melted through Kane's visor. In this second scene, the Facehugger was either injured by Kane and its blood splashed ob Kanes visor, or as seen in Alien 3 the Facehugger has the ability to spit acid. Something I used a few years back in the Prometheus Absolution graphic novel I produced.

However, in reply to your postulation about the Space Jockeys fate, and somewhat undoing the work I did in the graphic novel I just linked, the fact remains that the Space Jockey is not an Engineer. Not only do the proportions of the Space Jockey and Engineer not match, but the SOS/warning beacon was also not in Indo-European.

If we are to accept that the eggs are indeed stored within a lower compartment of the vessel as you and BigDave have debated, then we can assume that after falling foul to it's own cargo, probably in a similar way to as depicted in the graphic novel I linked, the Space Jockey landed their vessel and broadcast their beacon.

Evidence also clearly shows that despite Davids assertions that he created the Xenomorph, the reality is that he did not. The Deacon is a proto-form of the Xenomorph, and the Xenomorph lifecycle that David "created" is shown in the urn room, not only on the relief showing a xenomorph in a crucifixion pose (with Facehuggers in the lower corners), but the Xenomorph egg is, as BigDave, also shown on the "paintings" on the urn room ceiling. IMO, Davids statement comes from his arrogance and descent into madness, as both Advent and the Covenant novelization also relate that David merely continued the work the Engineers had renounced - the Xenomorph is not his wolf, it is his realization of the wolf the Engineers chose to abandon.

What the Xenomorph is should be debated and explored in another thread, but where it comes from lies between the Engineers and the Space Jockeys. I still contend, whether or not the Space Jockey is a separate species or a member of the Xenomorph race, that its existence predates the Engineers and that the Engineers are merely primitive human slaves used by the Space Jockeys to continue their work of spreading the Xenomorph. The Engineers continued the Space Jockeys work by weaponizing the eggs by reducing them to their most basic form - the black goo. The Engineers established a base on LV-223 to be able to quickly travel to and from LV-426, grabbing the eggs and weaponizing them.

"The facehugger then bled to death on the floor, its lifetime mission accomplished, its acid blood made the hole through which Kane descended later into the hold."

That certainly is plausible... something we discussed before on this site, and is the easiest way to pass off what caused that Hole!   You could even speculated that when a Xenomorph or Face Hugger has died, then its Body over Time will Dissolve and cause the HOLE.

Ridley Scott had gave in detail about the Space Jockey event.... but this was prior to the PLOT for Alien Covenant.

His comments paint a certain picture, but also could hint that the Derelict's Cargo was a ONE of a kind!

He had claimed the Derelict Event happened within a Few Hundred years of the Outbreak that had KILLED off most of those Engineers on LV-223.   He further said that something in the Cargo Hold had EVOLVED and infected the Pilot.  Who then knowing he was Infected had laid a Course to the Barren World of LV-426 to Quarantine the Ship/Cargo and set off the Beacon to WARN his brothers that the Cargo/Mission had become Compromised.

Its open to Interpretation... but to me this suggests at least that its likely the Derelict Event happened a FEW HUNDRED years after the Outbreak on LV-223.   I would Speculate that maybe the Space Jockey had gone into Cryo-Sleep (but Derelict lacked Cryo-Pods but they could have been located elsewhere on the ship).   The Pilot as infected, and maybe he never knew he was infected.

A Few Hundred Years passed, he came out of Cryo-Sleep went to resume his Mission, then he noticed he must have been infected.... or something had infected him Unbeknownst as he went into Cry-Sleep.  Or he could have investigate the Cargo Hold prior and was infected.

Which ever route, something maybe infected him that he had NO knowledge would have, it depends what RS meant by the EVOLVED comment, which could mean what ever infected the Space Jockey was NOT in the Cargo Hold the 200 years prior.

The Juggernaught in Prometheus had 3 of its Crew Dead via a Chest Buster like Event... while we dont see any detail, and we could speculated something could have BURNT into the Cryo-Pods... the Prop Engineers inside were CHEST BUSTED.

So we could speculate was it the same thing that had infected those Engineers too?

For me however... i would always be drawn to the Eggs being placed on the Ship/Cargo Hold with Intention, and so NO Organism ends up Laying or Creating those Eggs while the Surviving Engineers went to SLEEP.

But back then in 2012, i had wondered how this connects to ALIEN and pondered if the Hammerpedes were the Source of those Eggs?  Certainly the Chest Busted Engineers in Cryo-sleep in Prometheus.

Alien Covenant however could also allow us to ponder if something similar to the Spores had grown on LV-223 at least in some places after the Outbreak? or was part of the Outbreak.

I think while the Idea/Intention was that the Egg Cargo Hold is part of the SHIP.  And while i dont think this would ever change, until we see the Derelict Loaded with Eggs so we know HOW they got onto the Ship, then this is always going to be a subject of debate.

IF we go the route that the Eggs are on the Ship, then it would leave it open for other Eggs to be located in other places, UNLESS we assume that there was ONLY one Ship that EVER had that Cargo!

IF we look at the Eggs being something the Engineers had Experimented on, then we have to ASK where did they come from and so that means its likely there are more out there.  IF we look at the Eggs as being Created from Experiments then we have to ask WAS that Cache of all those Eggs EVERY one they had created?

I think looking at the CARGO Hold being a Underground Storage Facility would kind of Reduce the Chances of their being more, but we could ask did those Engineers Put all their Eggs in ONE Basket?

Could there had been more Egg Storage Facilities on LV-426 if we go this route?   DID those Eggs in that case come from someplace else and taken to the Storage Facility?  So again there could be other avenues of the Eggs.

These are all based on IGNORING what Alien Covenant had shown!

If we factor in Alien Covenant, this raises a Problem, because to ASSUME their is a Underground Storage Facility on LV-426 then it must mean that David takes his Experiments/Eggs to that Facility meaning this is the ONLY location for them...  but then the same could be said if we go this route and the Cargo Hold is on the Derelict.

HOWEVER... Alien Covenant does show us that there are Eggs on Planet 4 although these ones likely WONT yield any Queen.   And if the Prequels had completed then David could have had more Eggs on the Covenant, and/or Origae-6 too....

Certainly at very least there are those on Planet 4 and the Thousands on LV-426,  The David Created the Xenomorph route could LIMIT the number of places where Eggs can be obtained.

Before this PLOT change, we could speculate if those Eggs had got to LV-426 from LV-223 and so indeed it was likely that those or some of those Outposts on LV-223 had Eggs at one point...  The One Fresco shows a Egg but this was only on screen for a split second and not as a Full Image.

Regarding those other Outposts..... on LV-223, i would suspect each outpost either had... a Different Variant of the Bio-Weapon, or each outpost as dedicated to a different World/Race the Engineers had created (Fire and Stone indicated this) and so each Outpost's Bio-Weapon would be intended for different Targets.

Regarding the Acid Hole.... it looked more like something had Burnt from the Pilot Chamber down to the Egg Hold.

Ridley Scott said the beast is cooked because it WAS COOKED by the two sequels to Alien: deep fried/grilled in Aliens and stuffed/boiled/bloated in Resurrection (first time when aliens are showed in full light and swimming).

The queen was very popular I suppose, because it laid eggs, a lot of eggs so a lot of aliens good for a shooting spree. Didn't those sequels have a lot of shootings? Oh, yes!

(Because I remembered the death of Newborn, Ridley Scott mentioned he wanted a similar death for Lambert, but in 1979 there was no CGI)

The queen in Alien3 was force-fed to David Fincher by the producers, in the director cut it is not even seen, nothing bursts out of Ripley's chest. So the last queen was supposed to be dead and gone from the franchise. With Ripley,  with Newt, with Hicks. But the fans were so outraged, like they were after Prometheus, like they are after Alien Covenant.

For me the true and only sequel to Alien is Alien3. I think I outraged some more fans.

Gavin regarding that Blomkamp proposed movie, yes, I'd like to have that movie made, because it seems it is the only way to stop the gossip of what a lovely movie it would have been and how arrogant was Ridley Scott to shelve it.

I don't expect it to be much better than The Predator,, that was also highly praised before it was released, but I am not a fan of Aliens either, so not among the target audience for Fox/Disney if they prefer to invest in another dead end popcorn flick. In Disneyland, Orlando.

That crab walk movement of the Alien was probably connected to Lambert's death, that was supposed to be different, Lambert was to hide into one of those lockers that Jonesy came out of and die of fright. But that got changed, as it got changed in every script before, and Veronica Cartwright found about how her character died only when she saw the film. Those are indeed Brett's legs with the Alien tail in that scene, but how many people realized it unless they read about it somewhere?  Isn't that brilliant?

There are more shots with Bolaji Badejo practicing with the suit on, to nail an appropriate system of movement for the beast, I suppose it was not an easy task to be in the shoes of a xenomorph, but in the film he did a great job (deleted scenes don't matter too much):

Thanks Leto 

I believe Giler's twist to the story, introducing an android and the evil Company, made the film better, strengthened O'Bannon's initial version, which would have probably felt a bit dated these days without the conspiracy and would have limited the potential for the sequels.

All in all, my take is Alien was made in one of those crucial moments when everything that happens adds to the success of the project. Everyone's contribution pushed the story forward.

Another example I can think of, and being a Ridley Scott dedicated topic, is Gladiator.

"Another question is the hole which Kane enters which, at least at the top, seems burnt as of acid. Has something burnt itself down or up?"

After seeing Prometheus we know that the pilots of Juggernaut were in that chair only during landing and take off, eventually during fighting/bombing their enemies, rest of the time was spent in cryosleep.

We also saw in Prometheus that after bursting out from the Enginner's body, the Deacon went out. In Alien the chestburster went into hiding, it did not make any hole in the floor. The only hole in the floor was made when Ash tried to surgically remove the facehugger from Kane.

Ridley Scott said that the pilot was infected by his cargo and we saw in Alien that only one sector of the cargo hold was still covered in a layer of blue mist, rest of the eggs were not, and there were many eggs in that hold. I will deduct that the blue mist layer was not only to keep the pilot safe during the trip, but to preserve the eggs as well, a sort of incubator. Consequently I believe that the only eggs still alive when Nostromo landed on LV426 were those covered by the blue mist.

So... My only logical conclusion from the above facts is that something went wrong in the hold during the flight, maybe it was the blue mist generator malfunctioning, the pilot, awaken from cryosleep by some alarm system, went below deck and was attacked by a facehugger, chased like Lope from Covenant, or even with the facehugger attached to his face. He returned to the command deck and while being impregnated he managed to remove the facehugger hurting it in the fight (remember the Lope incident, must have been there for a reason). The facehugger then bled to death on the floor, its lifetime mission accomplished, its acid blood made the hole through which Kane descended later into the hold.

The pilot, realizing that everything is lost, and being in the vicinity of LV426, braced up for landing, all suited up, and did the emergency landing. He then activated the warning beacon and at the same time the chestburster made the hole through the chest and suit and went into hiding.

The end.

There is no denying that Ridley Scott was instrumental in helping shape 1979's Alien into the movie it became, but since he returned with his series of prequel movies he has staked ownership on the entire franchise, ownership he cannot claim IMO.

Blogs like Strange Shapes and other online resources help catalog the 40+ years of interviews and behind-the-scenes information that help fans appreciate the movies that little bit more, but said information, and I mean no offense by this (I have such a blog of my own linked in my signature), is for the most part merely a collection of interviews, most of which, as interviews tend to be, are diplomatically and politically (in terms of promoting the movie) phrased. What you will not find in these interviews is what wasn't said publically, although with the history of Alien and it's sequels certain truths have been deduced, such as Giler's constant interference, O'Bannon and Fincher's mistreatment by the aforementioned, and Scott and Camerons frustration towards Giler.

Giler hate aside, and getting back to Scott, Ridley was key to the first movie, but his contributions and practices were not all paved with gold...

# Allegedly Scott was shy and reclusive on set and gave very little in way of direction. This may have been due to inexperience with Alien being his second ever movie. But in his wake Cameron (Aliens was his second movie) and Fincher (Alien 3 was his directorial debut) reportedly showed much more authority on set.

# For the Space Jockey scene Scott famously used children in smaller versions of the principal actor's suits, with the intention of making the set look twice as large. Yet in all subsequent shots, the principal actors are used on the same set creating a conflicting scale. Some might call this nitpicking, but imagine such an error of scale appearing in a modern movie such as The Lord of the Rings. And then, of course, there is the shot of the Aliens tail raising provocatively between Lambert's legs just before it kills her, and has led many to believe it also violated her. But those aren't Lambert's legs - the shot was taken from Brett's death scene earlier in the movie.

# Scott was far from the first choice for the role. Other, higher profile directors at the time turned the movie down. When Scott was hired Fox were literally scraping the barrel, and Giler clearly believed Scott would sway the production in his favor, Which thankfully Scott did not. Not being a horror movie director, as he proved with Hannibal, Scott was ill-suited for the job, and a more established horror director may have produced a better movie, but alas we will never know now. In modern context imagine Paul Feig making a Terminator movie (*shudder*)

# Yes Scott demanded Giger be brought on board, and that O'Bannon's script idea of an actual Alien be used, but both of these, and likely many more aspects of the key decisions while being ticked off by Scott were raised and championed by O'Bannon, who was literally fighting against Giler to have his vision of Alien be made, as opposed to Giler's needless rewrite.

# Not all of Scott's ideas were "inspired". There is, of course, the infamous mention that Scott wanted the Alien to kill Ripley and mimic her voice in the movies closing scene. Another bad idea was Scott's suggestions for some of the Aliens movements, such as the crab walk toward Lambert (see below) which was thankfully left on the cutting room floor, as well as the needlessly exploitative casting scenes depicting Dallas and Ripley as lovers.

After directing Alien, and briefly working on a sequel Scott abandoned the franchise for 33 years. And while devout fans will always view the first movie through rose-tinted spectacles, it was Cameron's sequel in 1986 that propelled the franchise into popularity. I am not denying that Alien was influential, but Aliens was the movie that for many started it all - the comics, the games, the toys. And while some fans berate Camerons Queen, it was this aspect of the Alien that the sequels and the crossovers continued.

But back to Scott.

After 33 years, and a string of good and bad movies he returned to the Alien franchise with rapturous applause and delivered Prometheus. Yes, Prometheus expanded the mythology and was a visual masterpiece, but together with Alien: Covenant lets chronicle what Scott has, of recent contributed to the Alien franchise...

# It was Scott that hired Damon Lindelof to add the "mystery-box" elements to Prometheus. Lindelof is now virtually unemployable.

# For all intents and purposes Scott has retconned the Space Jockey into a bald jock in a suit.

# The Alien is, according to Scott, created by David; a synthetic created by mankind.

# The black goo, shown in Prometheus to infect victims with Xenomorph traits, and the key to David creating his perfect organism, is also shown in Covenant to be a more "generic" bioweapon when unleashed on the Engineer city.

# Rather than deliver what could have been an Alien 2001, Scott and Fox listened to YouTube videos such as the Prometheus HISHE, rather than the fans, and delivered possibly the worst Alien movie to date.

# Scott has repeatedly said that the beast is cooked. And in its place, because his performance in Prometheus was praised, Scott focused more on David than on the Alien, even breaking the cardinal rule of having the creature in full view in daylight (even AVPR avoid breaking that rule).

# The characterization, editing choices and chosen narrative directions taken in the Alien prequels have divided the fanbase.

# Despite whatever arguments one may have against his proposal, Neill Blomkamp's movie generated enough interest among the fandom for Fox to consider it. Early reports suggested that the movie would enter production after Covenants release, with Scott attached as executive producer. However, as Covenants release drew closer Scott proclaimed that the next movie, his third prequel would enter production immediately thereafter and that Blomkamp's movie had been shelved. Scott's movie was rumored to be titled Alien: Awakening, which was formerly the title of Blomkamp's proposed movie. More recently, despite that both James Cameron and Sigourney Weaver have stated that they loved Blomkamp's script, Scott has said that Blomkamp only supplied a short treatment/outline.

# Covenant performed so poorly compared to Prometheus and received such a backlash from fans that Fox put the brakes on Scott's Alien: Awakening, with Stacey Snider shooting down Scott's plans to produce an AI centric war of the worlds, stating that the story of any such sequel to Covenant was not certain.

In short, while Scott may have played a key role in finishing the production of Alien, it was Dan O'Bannon that was the driving force throughout - without O'Bannon none of any of this would have happened. But if one is to praise Scott for his achievements, one should also take into account the damage he has reaped on the franchise and the fandom. Pre-Prometheus I, as we all, heralded Scott's return, but post-Covenant I'm wishing he had not bothered. 

Great research daliens.

Producers... well, you know. They are ordinary people. Ridley, O'Bannon and Giger - visionaries, they are people of the future. Maybe Disney will turn off Giler from this universe, and will be used peoples who shares vision of the visionaries. And we will finally see truly alien worlds.

dk there were different links to different pages with different content and because I extracted only the content about Ridley Scott I thought it was important for those interested to have the link and read the page in full.

I suppose very few will be curious enough, you're right about that.

Gavin thanks for the links, I'll check them out.

Let's remain focused, the subject of this post is not Strange Shapes, but the influential role played by Ridley Scott in making of Alien.

Thank you.

Gavin Thanks- I have not seen most of those other references but I seem to have found out an actual name for S.M. whom hasn't been around here for a long time!

Not to diminish Strange Shapes' contribution to the Alien fandom but any newer fans should also check out the Weyland-Yutani Archives, a similar blog created by Scified's very own Xeno_Alpha_07. Hosted here on Scified the W-Y Archives were originally hosted on Blogger for many years.

Another valuable resource for Alien fans is the Alien Universe Timeline created by Scott Middlebrook, AKA Scified member S.M. Other Alien lore websites that fans may also find of interest are The Nostromo Files, Alien Universe (which has replaced the cool MUTHUR interface that was at Alienmovies.com), and of course the guys over at AVP Galaxy. Of course, there are many other Alien resources out there but these together with Strange Shapes are the ones worth mentioning, IMO.

daliens Sorry if the cynical dark humor was missed. I agree with you. 

The link was mentioned at least nine times in six posts between the two of us lol! 

You can lead a horse to water.....................

No passing fancy for Strange Shapes, I just tried to put together some facts that made Alien as it is and especially that Ridley Scott played a decisive role in it. Because I see people tend to forget that.

Strange Shapes is there, I put the links in the posts for those who want to read more about the franchise from Alien to Prometheus.

So you seem to have a passing fancy for Strange Shapes ........................................yeah it is the shit imo.

Not many people know that the facehugger from the film was not designed by Giger, but by O'Bannon,  following Ridley Scott's suggestions to combine elements from various works from Giger's Necronom. The early facehugger designs by Giger are those featured in the mural from Prometheus:

“There was a big meeting,” O’Bannon told Cinefex in 1979, “and everybody was talking at the same time and trying to tell Dicken what the hell it should look like (the facehugger). Finally, Ridley pulled out Giger’s book and said: ‘Look, I want these fingers here on this page and I want that over there for the back, and then I want the tail from this other page.’ And Dicken was just confused. So I asked Ridley if I could take a try at it, and he said, ‘Go ahead.’ So I went over to the art department with Dicken and we took a drafting table and a huge piece of paper and some pencils. I drew two heads on the paper, and then I opened up Giger’s book and put it down in front of us.”

“‘All right,’ I said. ‘Ridley said he wanted part of this body, right?’ And I sketched it out. ‘And he liked these fingers.’ So I added the fingers. ‘And he wanted this tail.’ Well, while we were doing this, Giger came in –his plane had arrived from Switzerland- and he had some new designs for the facehugger. And they were very similar to what we were putting together on the drawing board – not identical, but similar. His had an eye on the back, and the shape of it was much more like the palm of a hand. I looked at them and I said, ‘Oh, that’s good.’ Then Giger looked at the thing I was sketching with Dicken, and he said, ‘No, that’s better, that’s much better.’ I was really flattered. So I said, ‘Then I should continue with it?’ And he said, ‘Oh, yes.’ So we went on.”

Facehugger profile. Note the cyclopean eye. Image copyright HR Giger.

O’Bannon continues: “When it came to trying to figure out what kind of a skeletal understructure the thing would need so the fingers could hook up, I got Ron Cobb over and he scrawled out his ideas – which, as usual, were excellent. Then I cleaned the whole thing up a little and did it in ink –exact size- and that’s what we went with.”

The facehugger, like the film at large, was the rare successful product of a melting pot approach to design. “I was really pleased,” said O’Bannon, “because I had kind of eclectically constructed the facehugger out of the things that Ridley wanted and the things that Giger wanted, and some good ideas from Cobb and from Dicken. Then we put the thing through a blueprint machine, got Ridley to okay it, and Roger went off and built it.”

Ridley with Giger’s Necronomicon paintings and a prototype facehugger bust. Image courtesy of mauvais-genres.

(Strange Shapes)

Yes, it's like a tresure chest.

Can't stop reading from there.

I stumbled upon Strange Shapes years ago by accident on a thread like some newer folks might do now. It is the gold standard of sorts to me for both the casual and hard core. 

What really got my attention was when they talked about the whole egg silo/Derelict and cost vs time aspect- and what we eventually saw. That was a fascinating read and has sparked endless debate here. BigDave and other members was/is a heavy hitter on explaining things mentioned on that site. No one is 100% correct since things have not been officially explained, but the theories and discussions are what really keep this forum going.

Strange Shapes is the place to check out for in depth history and interviews with interesting art work. 

 Thank DK and Gavin.

I embedded the video here. I read it features a xenomorph and it is the best of the shorts so far. Can't wait to watch it.

#4 of 6 Ore: (Thanks Gavin)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv55of6Pb70

@ daliens,

For the past 40 years, my theories on the mythology behind the Alien movies have never been set in stone, it has constantly evolved with every new piece of information and every morsel of evidence. Your evidence, together with BigDaves post has made me reassess elements of my theory, which will, in time evolve my own theories further. Thank you.

@ jdvyne,

Regardless of whether he likes the movies or not, Ridley Scott declaring any of the movies that followed Alien as non-canon would be proof of his arrogance, and highly disrespectful to the cast and crew that worked on those movies.

We have the same issue with terminator currently. The upcoming movie Dark Fate disregards all the sequels that followed Terminator 2 but looks set to repeat the very same narrative beats those movies have already tread. While some fans are heralding James Camerons (in a fashion) return to the franchise, it remains to be seen (as is currently the view of Ridley Scott with the Alien fandom) if his return will still be as heralded after Dark Fates release.

Remember Scott was part of the team that brought us Alien; he did not write the script or design the creature- the Alien franchise is not owned by Scott, and never was.

As for canonicity, for better or worse Alien - Alien: Resurrection, Prometheus, and Alien: Covenant is the only true canon, regardless of any other assertions. Take Star Wars, for example, the new comics and novels are considered canon, that is until a successful movie is released that retcons whatever were depicted in the comics/novels. There are those that pick and choose their own personal canon, but doing so ignores the hard work of the cast and crew of those that worked on the movies one chooses to omit, and muddies discussion, debate, and speculation with those of us that follow the canon fo the movies as-is.

Another canonicity related question is which version of a movie showed be included as canon. Typically theatrical releases are edited according to strict guidelines from the studio and censor boards, whereas the directors cut, special edition, extended cut, etc. are usually the vision of the movie the director and their production team envisioned for the movie and the vision of the movie that acters for the fans. As such IMO the latter versions of the movies (not the theatrical cuts) are the canon versions.

If the engineers created the eggs through experiments with the black goo and humans/engineers (the eggs on LV-426 are in the cargo hold of the Derelict and not in a cave where a queen has laid them), then there might be more eggs on LV-223. There are, perhaps, 4 other pyramid mounds on LV-223 in addition to the one they explore in Prometheus. What’s in them?

Another question is the hole which Kane enters which, at least at the top, seems burnt as of acid. Has something burnt itself down or up?

@Leto

Indeed.... nice analogy of the Pilot Helmets ;)  I shared the same kinds of images to make the same point when Prometheus was out ;)

Regarding the Ridley Stones comment it was tongue in cheek, while he seemed to like the idea, indeed i dont think this was his Intention in 2011-2013, and who knows if others behind the scenes had came up with that U-Turn, such as Giler and Hill... so good point.

Regarding the EDIT of Prometheus....

Those Scenes Gave a lot away as far as the Agenda of the Space Jockey Race/Engineers.... Ridley Scott said he felt the Elders gave away a bit of Mystery, we can speculate he may have used that as the reason, or he may have been Disappointed in how they came across.

The Extended Dialog was cut due to Pacing... so he claimed.

The Extended Engineer Scene vs Dr Shaw, he asked for a Re-shoot as he felt that it made the Engineer appear to be weaker than intended... as Dr Shaw put up a Good Fight, when maybe she should have been SQUASHED like a Bug!

However the Scenes that are CUT paints a picture of a Interest in Dr Shaw, he could have killed her easy, it appeared this was not is Intention... well not as far as to just GO Postal!

Once they decided to Re-shoot the Engineer already had his Face Burn which happened during his Fight with the Trilobite (likely from Acid).... so by Virtue of this Re-Shoot and NOT having to spend time to Re-do the Make Up...  this meant other Scenes had to be CUT and not Edited down.

some of these Scenes gave some Insight into the Engineers, that made them to NOT appear as just Angry Aggressive SOB's

The Status Quo of the Engineers was Genetic Space Gardeners... and in the Drafts, it was indicated this Race had became Sterile... due to Engineering themselves a certain way.

This could be a Good Reason to Create Mankind.

Which i then speculated a few times, could they have intended to have obtained a FEMALE that they then could Procreate with.... this could maybe explain a certain Interest in Dr Shaw by the Engineer.  But then again he soon took care of FORD!

@jdvyne

I think we have to consider Alien 3 and Alien R as Canon, and as far as i know Ridley Scott has no problem with Alien 3, i dont think he was a massive fan of Alien Resurrection though ;)

We have to ASK why they went after Ripley in Alien 3, it could be seen as the less Risky more Guaranteed Avenue to the Specimen and Especially as it was a Queen.

After Ripley had Sacrificed herself,  they may have gone to LV-426 next to see if they can Salvage any Eggs... but as far as what they would Discover or IF there are any to Salvage is open for Debate..

IF they do manage to obtain something then sure, by the time we get to Alien Resurrection 200 years latter, the Company must have NO source of Xenomorph and Failed to Obtain or Keep any Specimens.

Regarding Earth.... yes what a sorry state it appeared. well Paris at least, some speculate the World was NUKED years prior in the Past to Stop the Xenomorphs.... maybe!

But then we have the Auton's Plot, so we could see again Synthetic have gone around and Created their own Creations the Auton's and the Earth has had a Conflict between Mankind and Various AI where we could speculate that Mankind, Autons and Synthetics are Fighting for the Rights to Rule the Earth.

Obtaining a Xenomorph could be the ideal Game Changing Weapon in such a Conflict.

Redone the Schematic a bit better.

This (Figure B) is just a Approximate, as far as Potentially the Cargo Hold Shape if we assume its to scale to FIT inside, compared to area of the Pilot Chamber which would OVERLAP on top of the Cargo Hold, but the Cargo Hold is NOT a Circle, so its likely wrapped around as in the Image i did, where we could then assume the Pilot Chair Area and Lower into the Ground as shown in Prometheus.

This (Figure A) image i am trying to roughly estimate where the Pilot Chamber and Egg Cargo would Lie... in terms of the Derelict..   In ALIEN we never get to follow every second of the Crews Journey, so there could be the Potential of the Pilot Chamber Floor being a certain height off the ground.

The Egg and Pilot Chamber are NOT lined up exactly due to Angels.... but the Scale i have roughly as best as i can matched... we have to bear in mind these Shots DO-NOT show the FULL Rooms... 

I have layed them above each other where there is a Margin of Error as far as More of a Gap Between Floors (off Camera) but i have roughly placed them and Marked in RED a potential Level Boundary... i then scaled this Marker to a SHOT of the Derelict and noticed it lined up a bit like i have indicated.

IF i assume this is a Good Estimate, then it makes the Case of the Cargo Hold being Taller than the Pilot Chamber and so makes it more Believable that the Cargo Hold may indeed FIT...  well the Error of Scale is Lessened.

"let's be honest and admit this idea that the eggs are stored in a cave or silo underneath the derelict is only our wishful thinking"

Certainly i think its going to be one of those things we just would have to accept and any inconsistencies a Oversight, as i had stated in the past, the same would likely apply to the Space Jockey, we would have to accept the size difference is purely a Oversight.

A lot of work went into Prometheus as it had some vague clues to the Derelict (showing the Juggernaught) so that IF they ever showed us the Derelict Event, i dont think they would have shown that LV-426 had a Egg Silo under ground.   I think with the Prequels as far as Alien Covenants sequel...  i think the plan if they got to FINISH the prequels and shown HOW/WHEN those Eggs got on LV-426.. i again dont think they would have revealed that the Egg Cargo was held in a Underground Cargo Hold..

We would have been shown and have to ACCEPT that the Cargo was part of the Ship... despite the Visual Flaws surrounding that regarding Scale..

I did this image a few years ago, showing HOW it could fit under the Derelict due to shape, which would fit as you pointed out the angles the Egg Chamber seems to Snake around the Corner... and this idea and image i did years ago was how i felt it could fit...   ONLY flaw being the Actual Width/Depth and Height would be IMPOSSIBLE (well a bit too small) but this was a Oversight and they could use Dr Who Tardis Technology to explain that away lol

I think you make Good Points, and i have always been one who has accepted the Cargo is on the Ship, despite some Size Differences.

Another point is indeed they Re-Used part of the SET of the Pilot Chamber for the Egg Chamber Scene... so both would have the Same Height and Depth,  but the Problem comes from the Zoomed out Extended Shot of Kanes Decent, where the Chamber is Extended out via a MATT Painting, which makes the Chamber much Larger.

But these are similar Oversights to how when the Crew First Enter the Pilot Chamber they used Child Actors and so this increased the Scale of the SET by say 50% so our Space Jockey would have appeared about 21ft or so from that shot, and then back to the Prop Size of 13-15ft for the Close Ups.

These are just Visual Oversights, that we can all with Computers etc Study and Nit Pick at... but back when the Movie was made, it was NEVER expected that we would be looking at and Dissecting those Scenes in Detail... and the Intended Purpose was to show the Cargo Hold was indeed on the Ship.

A lot had been done in terms of the PLOT for the Derelict, that IF they changed it to a Underground Cave/Silo would ALTER the way we look/think about that Scene and LV-426 where as ACCEPTING its part of the Ship makes for a more simple Plot/Explanation.

Ridley scott loves to aproach the "playing God" issue in his movies. I love it too. Religion is an infinite source of wars. I would love to watch the religion of the engineers explained in the Next movie. Who they worship? Why? Is There any connection with US? I love to see religious rituals. The sacrifice is always present.

The focus Has to be in the engineers and not in David. I would love to watch an entire movie under the perspective of an engineer. show us their Labs, their scientists, their experiments, shows us a glimpse of their society, show us their army, their weapons, show us...all.

Show us something different and unique.

It's a mistake to force the exact and precise connection between the prequels and the alien movie from 1979.

We know almost everything. The rest is circumstantial.

Spin-offs may be the way to go. So long as, they involve completely new characters. Have the Engineers take their retribution on David, then branch off with an Engineer adventure, then stories involving other Giger-type species, planets, Weyland Yutani, etc, etc.

I'm sure you guys can come up with much better ideas than me! I want stories which are forward moving, engaging, interesting.

Ridley was perfectly correct when he said that the Alienverse should be expanded. It's just that without his involvement I'm not so sure that will ever happen.

Will Disney have the courage to take the risk of going beyond the tried & tested? If nothing else, Covenant proved that troping & playing it safe wasn't really that successful.  

we had seen the Xenomorph over and over, and maybe some Mystery should be kept...

I think, this is the main mistake. Alien had an unintended mystery. But Prometheus had mystery only for mystery. Ridley cut all cool scenes only for mystery: elder engineers (better than lone Engineer), Engineer speak (great), and Engineer in Vickers pod (it should be in movie). And we meet original Engineers in Covenant and... meh?

Although we should all throw stones at Ridley Scott because it appears he was the prime reason for the David Created it Plot Change...

I don't think so. It may be Giler's ideas.

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About Space Jockey. Giger called him as The Pilot. And we all know how looks pilot masks.

It's a helmet - no doubt.

I think first of all the question is if we have to still see Alien 3 and 4 as cannon. If I remember correctly RS stated once, that he doesn't like the movies. Blomkamps movie would have taken place after Aliens and therefore creating a "new timeline" where Alien 3 and 4 are cannon no more.

If they are not to be seen as cannon, then it is of no concern what happened there in regards to OPs' question. I think the derelict was indeed far away enough so it could survive the blast.

If they are to be seen as cannon, then there can be one simple possibility how it would come about, that in Alien 4 they're trying to get the Alien via Riplay and not via LV-426:

maybe Weyland-Yutani DID try to get their hands on the eggs on LV-426. Maybe even several times. But maybe every time the same destiny befall them as Hadleys Hope, as the Crew of the Nostromo (besides Riplay), the Marines in Aliens, the crew of the Auriga etc.: they got infested and killed every single time. In Alien 4 they're talking about a war that happened on earth in 1-2 scenes. At the end of Alien 4 there is a scene (don't know if it was in the theatrical version or directors cut) where Ripley and Call are talking about what will happen next as they are staring over the RUINS of I think it was Paris. So Weyland-Yutani surely had done the best they could to keep their knowledge about the Aliens as best a secret as they could. If I imagine that somewhere between Alien 3 and Alien 4 there was a (nuclear) war on earth it could simply be that the very few people at WY who knew about the Aliens were ALL killed and at the time of Alien 4 the Earthgov or whatever simply hadn't found any secret files of WY (if there are any).

But who knows... after the David story-arc I think that the robots secretly already have taken over WY (or earth) "I, Robot"-style, hence the "Crew expendable" command. The "real" Bishop at the end of Alien 3 seems to be in command of the rescure-mission and I bet he's actually a robot. His blood is red but that doesn't mean anything. The way his ear is hanging down after he got hit looks suspicious...

BigDave, let's be honest and admit this idea that the eggs are stored in a cave or silo underneath the derelict is only our wishful thinking. 

I edited the frame with the Kane's descent into the hold, it can be seen it has the shape of the derelict, and, while I agree the height of the hold is approximately the same with that of the derelict, that should be ok, since the pilot chamber has to be in the dome situated on top, the rest of the ship is cargo hold and corridors. If you remember, after entering through the vaginal openings, Kane & Co. went up a wall and even if the wall was not that high, the suggestion was they reached the dome, where the SJ was. Then Kane descended through a hole in the floor, through the deck from the dome/pilot chamber precisely, and one deck only until the hold. He did not pass through any other deck or the hull of the vessel, so the eggs were right below the pilot chamber, right below the dome. Also the structure was the same type for the hold and corridors. If we can still argue if the eggs were produced or not by the Juggernaut itself, for me there is no doubt the eggs were INSIDE the derelict, in the cargo hold. Ridley Scott, Giger and the rest of the production team for Alien said that due to budgetary constraints they gave up the pyramid idea and placed the eggs in the cargo hold of the ship. And it is good it ended like that, becuse until the last moment Giler wanted to have the eggs in the red cylinder silo. 

There are, of course, some discrepancies regarding the proportions of the hold and derelict itself, how much they climbed from the entrance to the pilot chamber, but the fact the hold and the ship have about the same size is good enough. Nobody thought back in 1979 that someone would do such a thorough investigation.