Comments (Page 240)

If David (or Walter) get chestburster this will be the greatest film ever.

[The Engineers are] a lot about sacrifice, so in my mind there was an Engineer [in the past] who sacrificed himself to this virus and it created this horrific creature. This being, that was gonna eradicate planets, was like a parasite that would destroy the planet and then [the Engineers] could start over and rebirth it. And they kind of worshipped it and you see this relief sculpture where it’s almost a religious sculpture.”

WOW! Cool.

R.I.P. Terry.

Thanks nin

Hope everyone had a happy Easter! 

Legend!

R.I.P Terry

I like the idea of lying back, closing my eyes and hearing the narrative while creating the images in my mind. 

Correct, BigDave.

If Giler and Hill still have the same % of influence on Alien prequels should we be so surprised that David created the xenomorph? That is exactly going to the back door of Giler and Hill's original idea for Alien.

This gives me some hope for a sequel to Alien Covenant. 

I will reply to some interesting things latter..

For now i will add i have read yesterday the Hill, Giler Alien Draft and i see a High % of this Story is WHAT we got in Alien, as far as how much % of that Draft is ALIEN.. the main differences being the Replacement of the Company Bio-Weapon, and Dead Human and Human Ship.

With HR Gigers Derelict and Space Jockey and Xenomorph Designs... apart from this, the Red Cylinder Draft is basically the ALIEN we got.

So its no wonder that Giler and Hill get a good credit for the Movies...  their Influence on the Draft that had most % used for the movie is there to be seen...    We still have to credit O'Bannon (original idea and Organism Life-Cycle)  and HR Giger (the awesome design we got in the Movie)  though.

Let's see what Steven Messing,  the creator of the mural, has to say about it:

“Another set that I worked on was known as the ‘Head Room.’ This was a ceremonial room that contained hundreds of ampules beneath a giant sculpture of an Engineer’s head. Julian Caldrow did an amazing job of working out all of the details for this environment and created the set drawings. The final set was built at full scale and was incredible to walk on. I also sculpted an altar area for this set that paid homage to Giger – it is a relief sculpture hanging from the wall and has the impression of an alien form with flowing structures surrounding it. There are a lot of easter eggs in this sculpture – including several hidden Giger motifs that were not used in the original film.”

[The Engineers are] a lot about sacrifice, so in my mind there was an Engineer [in the past] who sacrificed himself to this virus and it created this horrific creature. This being, that was gonna eradicate planets, was like a parasite that would destroy the planet and then [the Engineers] could start over and rebirth it. And they kind of worshipped it and you see this relief sculpture where it’s almost a religious sculpture.”

He was a little confused, the Engineer who sacrificed himself did not create any horrific creature. But it is good to note that the virus predates the horrific creature.

And the right conclusion from Carlos Huante, a free-for-all for the design:

"“There were too many hands in the pie after it left me. It was likely that everyone was trying to stick their hands in. Ridley was surrounded by everybody’s opinions and the rules he and I created together got drowned out so they get lost. There was no more connection between anything, everything got thrown out and it was a free-for-all for the design.”

in their mind it was ok to fill the room with easter eggs.

Well this seems the route they are taking (David) but i think you would be hard pushed to find a Fan who thinks this was the correct route...

Its about Damage Control right NOW... they either have to show Davids Xenomorph is his own Creation/Re-Creation and Evolve it, but also give clues to show that the LV-426 Eggs predated his experiments.

Conclusion: David Re-Creates his own Variant.

Or have the Engineers or those above them, take Davids Proto-Xenomorph and Evolve it to become those Eggs on LV-426...  

Conclusion: David is merely the Middle Man, the M of the A-Z Origins of the Eggs..

I will have to check it out... i have not read that Draft.

R.I.P Terry

I think it depends on what we call a XENOMORPH

If this only refers to either the Alien Xenomorph Eggs on the Derelict or Davids  Xenomorph Eggs in Alien Covenant then the Face Hugger of these Organisms IS-NOT in that Mural.

The Mural depicts a similar Life Cycle, the Mural is SO ambiguous you could make Anything out of the shapes, but the clearest things are the Xeno/Deacon in the Middle (which looks not quite Deacon but not quite Xenomorph either)  and those TWO Face Huggers which are NOT the Traditional Face Hugger, so we cant assume what kind of Organism they would Gestate inside a Host.

The Trilobite essentially has a similar Life Cycle, only that it had not arrived from a Egg.   The Mural simply shows the Engineers had experimented with Organisms that are similar to the Xenomorph... it was open a bit for debate regarding the Xenomorph predates these, or came after these.

The Engineers are similar to Mankind that i think we can safely assume that a Engineer and Human infected with the same Face Hugger would Yield similar if not near identical Xenomorphs, apart from Size Difference.

I think the Easter Eggs are a bad idea if this is all they are as they can mislead fans... i cant quite remember who, but there was TWO people who worked on the Mural and one claimed it was merely a Tribute to HR Giger, another said the Organism in the Middle was the Bishop/Deacon.

"I suppose you wouldn’t say that the Space Jockey also exploded from inside because he had been exposed to the pathogen"

It depends how they go with the Prequels.. the idea was that it was one of the Cargo (Xenomorph Eggs) but who knows how they will show and IF they will show us WHAT happened.

The Xenomorph was a Ancient Event/Organism, that was explained as Connected to LV-223, even though clues in Prometheus were very Vague....   The idea was that the Xenomorph certainly predates the Prometheus Mission.

Then they gave the Curve-Ball, and like it or not, this was NOW the intention, despite it being a Choice that Does-Not settle with most fans...  I think while you could counter argue that we cant use this and that to argue the Xenomorph was not shown to be Ancient, but  by the same Token you cant use other things to argue that the Xenomorph Existed prior.

FACT is that it did... (prior to Alien Covenant)  but this has been changed!

FACT is this was a dumb move that simply is not the right choice as far as what made ALIEN so ALIEN.

Things are Subject to Change... and UNTIL we see David's Xenomorphs taken onto a Engineer Ship and Ends up on LV-426, then we can still keep a open mind that maybe David does-not create the Xenomorph.

I would say a Majority of Fans would hope so... and i am among them ;)

"So, my hypothesis is that making David the creator of the xenomorph was invented after Prometheus, therefore making Prometheus ambiguous."

Absolutely... while its not impossible... i think as of even 2013 the idea that David would be revealed as the Creator of the Xenomorph would be what 99.99% No He Did-Not

Ridley Scott even in 2013 had explained the event was Thousands of years ago!  We dont know what Prometheus 2 would have shown...  a source i had in Feb 2015 claimed that David would Re-Create something similar, as in either Re-Create something like the Xenomorph or Deacon.  They also claimed a 2nd Monster that David does-not create would appear.  This seems to fit with Alien Covenant only the Monsters may have appeared a bit different, and they decided to have it that David does-not Create something similar, but actually Creates it (Xenomorph).

At the moment we could ignore Ridley Scott as maybe his Symphony is not well tuned either...  if we go by the Movie Alone... then there is NO 100% Proof to suggest David had Created the Proto-Xenomorph, or that had had Re-Created a Xenomorph.

Go by the Novel and then this indicates David had NOT Created the Xenomorph on LV-426.

Go by the Advent and its ambiguous and so 50/50

Go by Ridley Scott and its indicated David creates the Xenomorph that predates the Eggs on LV-426

Everyone is entitled to Conclude what they wish... UNTIL we get to see David's Eggs ending up on LV-426 and then shown the SOS Signal comes from that Ship that becomes the basis of Special Order 937....

Then we can doubt that David created it, and it could be changed to show that he DID-NOT create it..  Fingers Crossed.

No. The Anthology is enough.

David in my opinion is didn't create the xenomorph. He imitated, perhaps even attempted to perfect them.There was too much to much evidence in Prometheus to suggest a xenomorph outbreak on LV-223.

The DNA match between engineers and humans is enough to make a quite similar xenomorph creature (bipedal) as compared to a dog (Alien 3) which would make it running around on all fours.

It’s also interesting that everything that seems to point in another direction (xenomorph being old) is ruled out as easter eggs or props meant to be for an earlier script or something. Either we look only at the films and what they show and draw conclusions from that or we take everything into account: novels, interviews, earlier scripts etc. If we look at what is shown in Prometheus, we see the whole xenomorph life cycle depicted on a wall. That’s it! We also see a deacon - which is a xenomorph creature. In my opinion (and I agree with Gavin) David is delusional. He only makes a variation of what the engineers have created or discovered long ago.

Yes, we could interpret the pile of engineers as being exposed to the pathogen and “exploded” or we could interpret it by focusing on what Milburn says (and the reference to Dallas). The other holes could be made by a xenomorph creature or they could even be made through time as the bodies decompose, and perhaps moonquakes have made rocks fall down on them. I suppose you wouldn’t say that the Space Jockey also exploded from inside because he had been exposed to the pathogen?

The movies, director and scriptwriters have made it ambiguous partly because the David-hypothesis wasn’t born when Prometheus was made. It grew from David’s development into a rebel (Fassbender’s excellent performance probably also made it a good idea to centre around him). Therefore, there are hints and references in Prometheus (such as chest holes, acid, the xenomorph life cycle on the wall, the deacon, the scream, the running engineers etc.

So, my hypothesis is that making David the creator of the xenomorph was invented after Prometheus, therefore making Prometheus ambiguous.

@daliens

A lot of stuff comes from Set Props...

These are on the Internet but also Blu-Ray Extras.

Originally Alien Engineers had indicated the Engineers had Re-Engineered and Weaponized 8 Variants of the Xenomorph, but also Holloway had came across in a Cave a UN-Weaponized more Cephalopod looking Variant.

The Urns got knocked over by Fifield who was bitten by  a Nano-Scarab from within, and he Evolved into a Xeno-Hybrid with Acid Blood.

The First time we saw the Scarabs they was in the Sacrificial Bowl/Cup and Consumed a Engineer the Thousands of Scarabs then Flew off, they had Engineer DNA stored in them and ONE goes and BITES a Primate who Evolves into a Human....   Meaning the Primate becomes a Engineer Hybrid which is our Ancestors.

Therefor the Urns must contain Scarabs that have Consumed Xenomorph (or related) DNA that was passed onto Fifield and likely they used this Urns to Engineer the various forms of Xenomorph...   we CAN only assume they used the Sacrificial Scarabs on some Discovered Organism that Predated the Xenomorph to obtain its Traits to use for Technology and Bio-Weapons.

If we take this into context, then apply it to the Goo in Prometheus, then we look at the  Mural and Fresco, i think we maybe can conclude the Engineers encountered a Organism they used their Creation Tool on to Obtain DNA to then Enhance themselves and their Technology and then also to Create Bio-Weapons..

If the LV-223 Engineers are a Sub-Creation like Replicants and CANT procreate or they are Engineers who had Engineered themselves and LOST the ability to Procreate Naturally

Then coming across a Organism that Impregnates them to then Give Birth to a Life Form that is seen as Perfect or the  Potential would give Good Reason for the Experiments and Worship of the MURAL.

I think this is what was intended... but well they messed about and changed things over and over, that its a bit of a Shambles now.

Davids Experiments are in effect maybe similar to what the Engineers had done in the past.... David gives us a clue to how the Xenomorph could have been created, i feel this was the intention for Prometheus: Pandemonium if my source was correct.  But the Studio wanted a more Direct Prequel and have the Xenomorph back... so thats what we got with a slice of F-U with David Creates it, instead of Creates something similar that would give clues to HOW the Original was created.

The Theory i gave above MAY-NOT make sense to some... but if we look at the Franchise and ASK!

What Benefit would the Xenomorph have as far as for the Company?   Get Queen, collect Egg, drop Eggs off to Places we want to KILL people?

would the Xenomorph have Traits that could Evolve Mankind, if we all became Ripley 8's then we would be closer to Immortality that Weyland Wanted.

What about using some of its Aesthetics to improve Technology and Construction?

If we could HARNESS and Reproduce Spider Silk, and Spiders Exo-skeleton Body then what LIGHT-WEIGHT and Strong Materials these are compared to Plastics and Metals. Which have Pros and Cons..

That would be more useful than just use the Xenomorph for a Weapon... and so WHY not a similar reason for the Engineers experiments on some Organism they encountered?

"Sorry, but you say nonsense. "Fans want..." "Some fans..." "Maybe fans..."

This is WHY i say SOME! and not Most or  ALL

Some Fans like Alien and Alien 3, and dont like Camerons Queen and Bugs!  Some fans do, and prefer this.

Some Fans like Prometheus... but then some Fans find disappointments in the direction, and i dont mean just limited to Dumb Characters.  I think these recent discussions HIGHLIGHT this..

I think its hard to Please Everyone.....  not everyone is going to accept that 7ft Bald Humans are the Space Jockey, not everyone is going to accept David was the Instigator and Creator of the Xenomorph

I would ASSUME.... most Fans would feel that the Planet 4 Engineers and their City is steering the Space Jockey away from what made it so ALIEN in the First Movie...  I am sure that Most Fans would feel that having a Synthetic David Create the Xenomorph in a Process some 19-29 Years before the Events of Alien, as being Totally NOT what we expect when we look at ALIEN and also diminishes the Alien Origins of what we assumed the Xenomorph was.

So when i look at what some Fans like or dont, it does-not have to apply to Criticism of Prometheus, but debates on sites like this.  Some Fans have different interpretations and wishes for how Prometheus would connect to ALIEN, even though it did-not give much connection.

In Hindsight... i think had Prometheus had more clues (Fifield was more a Hybrid with Acid Blood) we spent more time on the Mural and Fresco and some passing comment to give us a Clue, such as Davids sometimes to create comment, and Dr Shaws Outbreak Comments.

Having the Hammerpede shown to have Small Eggs after one is SHOT... and then seeing Milburn Chest Burst or Back Burst or whatever a Organism like the Neomorph, maybe this gets killed, maybe it escapes and is encountered a bit after and killed.  

A closer look at the other Engineer Cryo-Pods...

Then these changes would have surely improved the Movie, but still Flaws in Characters would have remained.. if these had also been improved then Prometheus could have been much better... and ALLOWED the Door to Alien to be CLOSED, and allowed a Prometheus 2 to go some place FAR FAR away and NOT be about the Xenomorph.

And NOT have have to give us Alien Covenant... which must be a NIGHTMARE for most Fans they hope they can wake up from.

My Re-write of Prometheus was as i had discussed above, i also improved some of the Dumb Scenes.. but my Prometheus Edit would have been a 2hr 40 Min Movie! So no good for the Theater and we would have been back at Square ONE with Cuts/Edits.

But such a direction with some more Alien Monster Scenes, some more clues... would have allowed Prometheus 2 to open a different Tangent of a Franchise.

They could have then apleased some Fans who may have wanted more clues and similar Monsters.. at least long enough to then give them another ALIEN movie after Prometheus 2.

Which could have been another Prequel route, a mission to LV-223 which could have then been more ALIENY and Action Packed, and given more or definitive Answers to LV-426

I certainly agree that NOT every movie needs a Queen, some Fans may want them, but i am sure MOST Fans would expect a ALIEN movie to at least have something that is related to the Xenomorph.

So if Alien Covenant had NO Xenomorphs only Neomorphs i dont think most fans would be so upset, some would still want some ideas to the ORIGINS of the Xenomorph by Virtue of a Prequel should maybe cover and conclude this... but not everyone would be HELL bent on needed a Origin Spoon Fed.

A addition of David Evolving the Neomorph to something similar to the Xenomorph but different (more so than the Proto-Morph) or by Evolving the Neomorph to be a Hybrid that is more Neomorph than Xenomorph but have them come from Eggs, these could allow Fans to Ponder if SIMILAR was done in the past to Create the Eggs.

Likewise another Prequel where a Mission goes to LV-223 and either we have similar to Prometheus (infections) but we see more of a End Product... or they come across the Deacon and have it Infect Humans with something a bit different, rather than show Deacon laying Eggs.

Then have like Deacon like Monsters vs Humans... then i think this too would please Fans.... and not everyone would be like i wanna see Queens.. we dont need them in the traditional sense.

It remains that SOME Fans expected more clues to LV-426, and not Necessarily needing to see Traditional Xenomorphs or a Queen...   A Return to LV-223 could give something different but then provide more clues to LV-426 (if we ignore what Alien Covenant was doing with David).

PS!

I am Sorry if i use Bold to highlight some points and CAPS these are intended to Highlight things, as otherwise people would get LOST among my word after word and not pick out certain Important points.

Its not intended to come across as FORCING my views and opinions and i am Sorry if it comes across as such!

chli

Please look again, frame by frame at the pile of dead bodies, the holes in the suits are everywhere, BigDave also put a collage above to see similarities with the effect of the black goo on other Engineers (planet 4, sacrificial).

I saw the holes in the cryopods, but never once camera stops or zoom in on them, if I did not read about them, I would probably not have noticed. We don't see in the film the props of those 3 dead Engineers,  I don't know where BigDave saw them. So even if initialy this was some important detail, it was minimized during editing. 

What I say is probably the Engineers saw other variants of Deacon before, but they were created by accident, like in Prometheus, the first to do mass production of xenomorphs seems to be David.

The only alternative would be to see the other mounds, maybe there are more clues there. In the film I only saw urns and vials of black goo.

And if we look at David's lab,  at Advent and at David's drawings we see what he ment by: "  I have taken great pains to detail every step, every cell, every mutation, unfortunately none of the planet's life has been proven to be very fruitful. I had some interesting results, but was still far from perfection. With Shaw I realised there was something extraordinary in the substance reaction to the human genome. I was able to unlock new properties and tweak the organisms aggression. An instinct for survival. It took years. But I finally found my wolf."

I think when looking at the WHOLE layers of Creation, maybe we can apply the idea (well one) i had...

The Space Jockey are either a Bio-Mechanical Being, or a Humanoid (not so Human) in a Bio-Mechanical Suit... they had Created/Came Across the Engineers and they had given them a WORLD to live on, taught knowledge to a limited degree, but they would in this COVENANT have to provide some Sacrifices on their part (need to give life to the Wolf and Lamb).

The Engineers Rebelled against this....  then Mankind was created to replace them....  and a WAR happened... The Engineers Masters Disappeared (could left the Galaxy) the Engineers then took their Masters Technology and Re-Engineered it.

They then renounced this after a WAR, and then began to Subjugate Mankind before Mankind started to Rebel, so the Engineers Returned to Creating a Bio-Weapon that Genetically similar to what their Masters used the Engineers for... the Engineers Re-Create this to use on Mankind.

I had about 5-6 variants of this idea, each a little different in various aspects.

For example Space Jockey could even be a Humanoid created/discovered for the same Task... what this does is take the idea i had posted just, and bring the Space Jockey as another Layer rather than Masters..

Space Jockey Race Enslaved, Rebel, Create Engineers, etc and we see Engineers Repeat this with Mankind, and Mankind Repeat this with David etc etc.

This leaves a VERY Ancient and ALIEN element thats been LONG gone, as the TOP of the Chain.... we could then bring these beings (Starbeasts) back!

"This thing here. Like it’s opened from inside. Almost as if it exploded”

This could also explain the theory i had too... i understand my posts are too long winded to be read by many though..   WHY i am pondering giving the site a indefinite break.. (in terms of if i just end up overflowing the site with endless pages that distract from other peoples discussions).

The DNA match was intended to show we came from them....  some take a 100% Match as meaning we are all the same...  but every Human would have a 100% Match, in context to that finding by Dr Shaw.

These would have a 100% Match in context too....

But then not every Genome would be identical (because we would all be Clones).

So it was to show we are very related, the flaw was that they should have said... "the Data shows we are nearly a 100% Match, we must have came from them!" 

But ALAS.

The Engineers have some differences, they seemed to have Enhanced themselves... but then i guess its a case of a Skinny Guy would have the same DNA match as a Massive Body Builder.

If we found a way/drug to stop out Body/Organs from Aging so we AGE 5X Slower, Essentially meaning we could live for 400-500 years... we would still have a DNA Match.

So we are connected, we came from them, they came from us or we both came from something else related...  the Engineers would come back and enhance us over and over, so we would become more and more like them. Up to a Certain Point....  but then it depends on HOW we look at the Sacrificial Scene and even if his applies to Mankind?

The hole Chest Busted Engineers and Exploded Engineer Props could have been from Production for Alien Engineers, when indeed the reasons for them was different...   some had been Chest Busted, some wounded by said Organisms.

The Prequels are full of changes of direction and flaws, that its open to debate and sometimes a mess...  i think we always have to consider what Spaights and Ridley Scott had been attempting though....... but i am not sure many Fans like the idea the Xenomorph is a Experiment created from the Discovery of a Organism the Engineers used their Creation/Hybrid Tool on to Extract Traits to Enhance themselves and Technology, while also making Various Bio-Weapon Xenomorphs too.

"There is should be a good reason, or it's another mystery for mystery."

Certainly i think thats a Good Point, they could have made a CGI Smaller Bowl, it would be harder than a Green Crystal because this was placing something LARGER to cover something Smaller...    you would Replace Dumbo with a Mouse.. maybe thats not a ideal Anology so pass that... but  its easier to over CGI something with something Bigger, than to Replace with something Smaller....

But having a Smaller Bowl would NOT have been Impossible... so its open to WHY this was changed, could it be as i suspect?  But then if this really MATTERED or the Plot, then WHY not replace with Smaller Bowl.

Could it be because they changed the PLOT... well they seemed to change things on the FLY... look at the Scenes that got CUT just to show us the Engineers HATED Humans went Postal, Crashed and Got Burned and went on another Rampage for Survivors.

I think a lot shows that those working on the Prequels just cant make their minds up and stick to a A-Z Plot... and so YES we have to give Ridley Scott some of the blame for that.

"Engineers, humans, one and the same in my opinion. the two theories for Engineers relationship to humanity are.."

They certainly are created.. i think when looking at the Creation Layers many overlook David... he could be the ANSWER right there...

David was not created purely because Weyland wanted a SON to love as his own.....  I dont think Dr Shaw's answers to her Questions would have shown that GOD created Mankind to Love and Cherish for ever and ever!

The Sumerian Mythos well some interpretations, indicated a Race of Gods Sub created a Slave Race, who Rebelled and so they created another Slave Race (Mankind). If we look at the Biblical Account.... If Lucifer did-not rebel and take some of the Angels with him... WOULD God have created Mankind, but some accounts are his Fall was because he would not BOW down to worship Adam.

We should not stick all of our Eggs in One Basket as far as what Mythos to look at.... i think the Broad Themes should be applied though!

What Purpose does the David and Walter Models have?  They are to Serve Mankind, Created to make our Lives Easier and Perform  Tasks that could be deemed DIFFICULT or Dangerous to Mankind.

Another Purpose would be in context to Weyland Personally, for a Man who wishes to leave a Legacy, so he would be Immortalized in his works, and try and play GOD, then creating a David/Synthetics would make him feel is is a GOD.

Also if we consider that creating David and AI could be seen as a attempt to gain Immortality if Weyland could only just UPLOAD his Soul into a Synthetic....  

Then we could look at maybe these reasons being maybe similar to reasons for Creation the Further up the Ladder we go.

We also have to consider David... he was not happy with how his Creators had viewed him, not when he felt Superior and so David becomes Sentient and Rebels, and we see him also looking to WANT to be a Creator himself!

And so this also could apply to the higher levels of that Creation Ladder.....

The LV-223 Engineers could be to those Planet 4, as David or Replicants are to Mankind.

So back to your Slave Race Comment... yes why not... Space Jockeys could created Engineers for similar reasons as i mentioned, and Engineers could create Mankind (or Space Jockey do) to for the same reasons again and so Forth!

We could then ponder is this Slave/Task related to Sacrifice?  Highly likely, but then its for what reason... Create Life, Create Death, spread the Xenomorph... i think all options in context are possible.

I look at Planet 4 as in context to Paradise/Garden of Eden, a the Cradle of Creation, watched over by some Higher Beings.  Was their a Faction who had then done things against what was intended and BANISHED?

Did Mankind come from here before we was BANISHED?

I look at LV-223 as a Green-House, Nursery our Gardeners of Space would use to Test/Evolve various life and then Re-Seed them onto the Worlds.   My Prometheus Sequel ideas i was to show  a Flash Back where Primitive Apes were taken to LV-223 to then be Evolved into Mankind (Hybrid Engineer/Ape) and then taken to Earth.

They returned over and over... and the Stat Maps are saying "this is where you came from"  something had happened at some point that lead to LV-223 becoming something else... a Place to Create Horror... well some Engineers Discovered something Interesting and used this to Evolve themselves, and then attempted to use this to Create something to EVOLVE Mankind after we had upset them.

But alas such ideas or Plot is something that just does-not become very ALIEN, and i had some more Alieny ideas but it was Merging them... which i could not find a ideal way so i abandoned even trying!

A lot of Fans just feel the Prequels should Center around the Xenomorph and our Engineers/Space Jockeys are just enslaved to spread the Xeno-Seed.  I find some flaws with that though.

in HINDSIGHT... the Prequels should have been Left to a Mystery and maybe just go ahead with ALIENS 2 and AVP 3 etc.

daliens

Regarding the three dead engineers in the pilot room, there are holes in their hypersleep chambers just above their chests suggesting a chest burster exiting first through their ribcages then right through their hypersleep chambers.

As for the engineer pile outside the closed door, Milburn remarks: “This thing here. Like it’s opened from inside. Almost as if it exploded”. This is, of course, meant to be a reference to Dallas’s words about the Space Jockey’s chest wound: “Bones are bent outwards. Like he exploded from inside.”.

When it comes to the deacon being bipedal, and we accept that the resulting creature takes up traits from its host (which can also be debated), the engineer and human DNA match so there shouldn’t be any special differences, except the size (ultramorph).

" and one of Lucifers many titles is "the prince of lies"

Certainly this is how Abrahamic Faiths have it, Lucifer does fit more with Prometheus and Enki too, and so actually the "prince of lies" would be "beacon of truth"   But in context to David and When ONE note is off the Symphony is well destroyed, yes David could be a bit bonkers and deluded.

I think however when we look at Prometheus and Alien Covenant as far as Davids Notes... then it could be take as he had created the Proto-Morph if you will.  I will answer this with my reply to daliens comment.

"David never saw that Deacon. That Deacon was an accident"

We have to remember David has a High IQ, we can assume he could Read the Engineer Writing in the Complex, who knows how much he gained from when he activated the Juggernaught Chair...

David had witnessed that Dr Shaw was carrying a NONE-Traditional Fetus.... while he never saw the Deacon in Prometheus.... (who knows after that Movie until they left) but you would BET he would have been interested to see what became of Dr Shaws Child.... 

So its possible he would have been interesting in REPLICATING the Event..   with Alien Covenant it showed that David had witnessed what the Neomorph Spores could create and he had attempted various experiments with them and using the Black Goo to take traits from various Organisms to in essence EVOLVE the Neomorph into the Xenomorph.  A understanding of the Black Goo as far as if we used Alien Engineers Nano-Scarabs would show you HOW the Black Goo can indeed be used to Cross/Hybrid and Obtain Traits from Organisms.

So daliens indeed what you are saying i feel is what we are being shown.... i dont think it was a WISE move.. and certainly was-not what was intended..

Something i am sure many wished they never saw, but maybe something we need to accept rather than Clutch at Straws... some fans still wont accept the Space Jockey is NOT a Skeleton... but everyone is entitled to their opinion even when One Note is Off ;)

I think what we need to look at is from Davids POV...

If he wanted to know what those Engineers were doing and wanted to Witness what they created First Hand, then Dr Shaw's Fetus was a Interesting Result... he never got to see the Deacon, but surely he would be wondering WHAT would Happen Next, he would maybe see similarity in Dr Shaws Fetus and the Mural, as far as the Face Huggers but he never got to see the END Product...  so we could assume he would maybe WANT to replicate that.

IF David had encountered the Neomorph, and a Xenomorph Egg then WHY THE HELL would he bother with all those other Experiments?

It would be Found Xenomorph Egg Check!   Got some Spores Check!   Now lets await for the Engineers and Humans and its Party Time!

You could suggest that he wanted to Create a Hybrid Version, that would combine the Neomorph Traits... and that could still be plausible...  The main Problem is such a PLOT is well a bit Crap, and so we can hope and look for clues to try and AVERT what we was shown instead of being in Denial!

Personally i would want David to go on and Evolve his Xenomorphs to be something else... but i feel its such a Coincidence that he Replicates something from LV-426, unless he uses/obtains a Egg.... but then we have to ASK why bother with all those other Experiments.

"i found my Wolf, then spent 10 years Fecking Around with in-superior versions"  that makes no sense!

We have to accept things and think how can we EVOLVE and change it moving forwards and not alter whats happened.. some Fans are upset at Camerons Bugs Life! And the Queen.... if RS was allowed to REBOOT that idea out of Existence and go with what was Originally Planned.. i dont think that would be ideal, and the Queen should remain...

So i think we need to FIX the problem and not IGNORE it... and so it makes more sense NOW that The Engineers or whoever created them will return they will Discover Davids Xenomorph and see what a Perfection in the Making that is... they would see David and see him as Similar, or maybe what Humanoids David Creates... and then these beings (Engineers or Creators) take Davids Xenomorph, take David or his Humanoids and Combine them to create the Eggs on LV-426.

THIS has to be the best way to go, the other option is get CAMERON and Blomkamp and ..... Re-boot the Prequels... they never happened lol.

By that i mean you just have to Roll with the Punches, and come out the other end with a better Round 2....  than just NOT accept and hope for a Reboot of Ideas...

"Camerons Bugs was Stupid"  sorry we have to accept this but this does-not have to mean thats the only kind of Xenomorph.

"The Space Jockey is NOT a Engineer" sorry we maybe have to accept it, but by Virtue of Scale and minor differences we can introduce the Space Jockey as something different... but a Skeletal Remains is a Stretch too FAR.

So basically we could go the route the Engineers or their Creators had DROPPED the Ball, then David picked it up, the Engineers then Take the Ball off David and then TOUCHDOWN/GOAL!  

Making David merely the Middle Man.... the Engineers or their Creators gave the A (maybe a bit on wards) in the Origins, David merely did the M and then those Engineers/their Creators do the Z and Voila we have those Eggs on LV-426.

The lack of Scale for our 7.5ft Engineers on LV-223 maybe meant that LARGER Sacrificial Bowl had to GO!

OH C'MON! They use CG, to replace the bowl with the crystal. If they want, they can simply change the size of bowl. There is should be a good reason, or it's another mystery for mystery.

"We have no other clue in Prometheus that the Engineers created the xenomorph"

I can agree with this... despite the indication was the Xenomorph had Originated from those Experiments or the Outbreak, but Alien Covenant threw that Curve-Ball that changed things.

If we go back prior to Alien Covenant, then indeed the intention was to indicate a connection, more direct in Alien Engineers, and then loosely with Paradise which became Prometheus.

So in Hindsight it became a bit of a MESS...  When looking at the other ideas for FIFIELD we could see that he was intended to have more Xeno/Deacon DNA, also he was intended to have ACID BLOOD  (did in drafts) then the Engineers Face Burn had occurred during his Struggle with the Trilobite.... but the Re-shoots while in Burns make up and alluded to it being from the Crash, yet there was no signs of FIRE DAMAGE on the Juggernaught.

The Fresco showed a EGG but this was not a complete shot and for a Split Second... 99% of people would missed it... 

The Engineers Cryo-Pods had Holes in them apart from the Surviving Engineer, while we never had a clear close up shot of those Cryo-Pods (again they was easily missed) the Props inside where Chest Busted Engineers, Holes the Size of what a Deacon would make.. yet Hole in Cryo-Pod much Smaller.. but alas this is another Oversight!

So there was clues..but there was little time spent on those clues, and some of the alternative designs and Acid Blood and whole Editing had made such clues hard to read or missing completely.

Alien Engineers gives the Biggest Clues, if you use that as a Rosetta Stone then Prometheus becomes NOT so ambiguous.

The Mural.... thats a Mystery, maybe it meant something, maybe its a Red Herring... the Fresco too... but i have had my LONG TIME theory on that... but its something that would take a LONG post....  i feel its pretty Solid though, but a ANCHOR point is the Sacrificial Bowl, which was replaced by the Green Rock, which i can SAFELY assume is because of the Scale of the Bowl, compared to when we saw it in the Sacrificial Scene would indicate the Sacrificial Engineer to be about 12-13ft Tall.  Which was the Intention!

The lack of Scale for our 7.5ft Engineers on LV-223 maybe meant that LARGER Sacrificial Bowl had to GO!

OK, Leto.

I'll put it in the log :)

Damn it, Ridley, you are the next visionary, always ahead of our times. People will understand later the lonely perfection of your cuckoo.

Yeah. Sorry. I know. :)

1. This is the future. FTL, cryosleep. Keep facehuggers alive is some liquid - the easiest.

2. You will find out if you go to the gym. ;)

"Doesn't matter. They did U-turn with A:C. They do U-Turn with A:C-2."

Yeah, but I'm afraid it's too late, for some at least.

I don't know if I can accept that David lied about creating the perfect organism. Or if the Space Jockey is not a big bald humanoid in a suit. Or an android in a big bald humanoid's suit :)

Actually,  the more I think about the fact that David created the xenomorph,  the more interesting I find it. I want to see how he got the biomechanical one. In other circumstances we would never find out, leaving it a mistery.

Damn it, Ridley, you are the next visionary, always ahead of our times. People will understand later the lonely perfection of your dreams.

@chli

I think while the Novel Suggest that, the Movie does-not have the exact same scenes, as far as "menacing bipeds. Their tough exoskeletons gleamed like black steel. Though there were slight individual variations, all had in common the same threatening aspect - long tails ending in scorpion-like points, curving elongated skulls devoid of visible eyes, and jaws filled with teeth shining like chromed chisel.”  There are some Examples but i dont recall any Matching the Full Scale and Description as shown in the Novel... so again i think it depends on HOW did ADF come to include such things in the Novel?

"The hologram shows engineers running from something and those who don’t make it in time to the closing safety doors ends up dead with holes in their chests"

This can be interpreted as such and that SCREAM did not Help things...

But i cam to a different conclusion... we need to FORGET what we see in ALIEN and look at what we see in Prometheus.  which is this Black Goo Pathogen, that Dr Shaw had indicated she had seen something similar before (Ebola) and Janek mentioned he had to Nuke a Facility because some Scientist Spilled something.

The First Time we see any GOO is the Sacrificial Engineer, he consumes the Substance and a Violent Reaction occurs, his Body Molecule by Molecule is being Broken Down, and the Resulting Black Particles of Matter and Pathogen seem to FLY off, until the Engineers Legs are Dissolved and he Falls into the Water Fall/Lake.

Then we have the Hologram Scene, those Engineers do appear to be running away, but they also appear to be running towards that Big Head/Ampoule Room.  Some may say WHY run towards the Place the Pathogen is Stored?

Here we need to look at some Evidence... 

Firstly those URNS all remained intact until the Prometheus Crew (No Helmets) had affected the Environment, for Thousands of Years prior those Urns remained Intact!

Second the Engineers Head had remained in a Well Preserved Condition, YET his Body on the Outside is just a Hollow Shell (The Space Suit),  The Engineers Head when Re-Activated by the Probe that Stimulates Cells to become Active, suddenly EXPLODED.

I therefor assume that for some Reason the Big Head Room's Environment somehow Slowed Down or Prevented the Pathogen from having ANY effect... it HALTED it.  If this ASSUMPTION is correct it would give Good Reason for WHY those Engineers were all attempting to reach this ROOM.  It also would explain WHY the Engineers Head was Preserved, and WHY the Urns remained intact until the Human Crew with NO helmets arrived.

The Deleted Scenes showed our Engineer walked across the Surface of LV-223 with NO Helmet and so they likely dont use them to survive in that Environment but as some Bio-Hazard Protection,  in both terms of preventing the Pathogen to enter their Body, and also in Terms of preventing them from AFFECTING the Storage Room for the Pathogen.

Next i come to those Engineer Body's, nearly all of them had NO Chest Bust Holes, the Holes where in the Heads, but also other parts of the Body, Arms, Legs and well  in many places.  This could mean they was attacked by a Xenomorph.  But these Suits also look HOLLOW (which could be because thats easier from a Production Perspective so Less Weight).

When you look in context to what i have mentioned so far, and then look at Alien Covenant and how the Black Goo seemed to Replicate and then Escape the Engineers from what ever Orifice it could escape from....

ASK yourself this... what happens if they wore Space Suits?, would the Pathogen try and Escape from the Suit?

If we look at the Sacrificial Engineer and his Reaction was contained within a Space Suit, we could maybe ponder would such a Violent Chemical Reaction be like when you have a Mint/Minto into a Soda/Cola Bottle and Shake it... this creates a Violent Reaction and any SINGLE weak point in the Bottle and the Liquid/Gas will Escape/Explode out of this...  

I assume this explains the Holes in the Engineers Suits.. a Flaw in this Theory (which i put on here many times prior to Alien Covenant) is that with Alien Covenant we have to ask WHY those Engineers Bodys became like Petrified/Calcified?  (The Radical AI is the explanation but thats for another debate).

It is a Theory, that i think reflects the Clues, Dialect and Comments by Production, but its a theory that leaves a Question "so how does this explain the Fricken Xenomorph" it does-not...  we need to look at what happened to Dr Shaw in Prometheus and Davids experiments on Planet 4 or the Hammerpedes for that.

Here is a Image showing what i have been on about.

Leto

I have two dilemmas regarding Aliens:

1. How did they keep those two facehuggers alive in the big glass jars from Hadley's Hope? How did they surgically remove them and how come they did not die? If there was time to perform the surgery, victims died anyway, the facehuggers had time to implant the eggs and, as we all know, after that any facehugger dies happily.

2. How was Ripley holding on on one hand, the airlock open, queen attached to her leg until, luckily, her shoe got lost toghether with the queen?

Doesn't matter. They did U-turn with A:C. They do U-Turn with A:C-2.

BigDave

Sorry, but you say nonsense. "Fans want..." "Some fans..." "Maybe fans..."

Do you really don't understand? Prometheus and Alien Covenant good films. Many people and "aliens fans" love this films. They love Engineers, Black goo and Neomorphs. Nobody wants a Queen or something like that in Prometheus.

It's all about quality of performance! Alien and Aliens have the best quality. You don't need to buy Aliens with a Queen, but you should be honest. Alien and Aliens - gold standard. You will be extremely surprised, when you find out that many fans don't have obsessions about Queen, Ripley and Colonial Marines. Reason why people love Alien and Aliens - high quality.

Gavin I agree that David is delusional and the prince of lies, but a stronger proof that he created the xenomorph are the facehugger embrios. How could he have had those if he did not create them himself?

"As you can see, I've become a bit of an amateur zoologist over the years. It's in my nature to keep busy, I suppose. The pathogen took so many forms... and was extremely mutable. Fiendishly inventive, in fact. The original liquid atomized to... particles when exposed to the air. Ten years on, all the remains... outside of the original virus... Are these gorgeous beasts. Patience is everything. From the eggs came these parasites... Shock troops of the genetic assault. Waiting for a host entering the host... rewriting the DNA... Ultimately... producing... well, these enviable unions. My beautiful bestiary. Soon enough I began a bit of genetic experimentation of my own. Some cross-breeding, hybridising...

You engineered this, David?

Idle hands are the devil's workshop, Captain. Come. This is what I wanted to show you. My successes. You see, Captain... My work has been frustrated... by the lack of an essential ingredient.

Are they alive?

Waiting, really..

For what? What are they waiting for, David?

Mother. Perfectly safe, I assure you. Take a look."

In the above scene with Oram he explains how it all started, he has evidence of his experiments, his beautiful bestiary, all culminating with his successes from the basement.

There are two eggs in his lab, apart from the little ones on the table, one egg is sliced as for the other one, David removes one side of it and we have a glimpse of a dead facehugger inside. He does not say a word about them.

Again, David says a lot of lies, but all his lies are debunked in the film, except the fact that he created the xenomorph. Is that a lie too? A lot of evidence suggests otherwise.

What evidence do we have that the Engineers created the xenomorph? It comes to mind Shaw's reply from Prometheus: "Because this is what I choose to believe!"

And in the end, I will quote again Ridley Scott from another interview from March 3, 2017:

"Prometheus was about who and why? This is getting closer to who designed it and for what reason."

Dont get me wrong though, i should not be taken as ALIENS or Cameron Bashing!  There is a Market for the more Action Packed Xeno-Flick, certainly also is the Formula that is used in a Majority of the Games/Comics and a Formula that had been a Great Marketing and Merchandise Asset to FOX.

I do look at it as Ridley Scott does and that is the Formula has been repeated a lot, the Games, Comics seem to be very similar to what say a Aliens and Alien Resurrection had done, and the Xenomorph via Games and Comics and how it became in Alien Resurection and AVP Movies, was something that just was NOT as Scary or Interesting as it had been Overdone!

You needed to change it a bit, introduce something Fresh, but that really is difficult, the Same Queen, Eggs, Face Huger, Chest Buster, Xenomorph.. Run, and Shoot, Greedy/Selfish Company wants Organism and a Ripley comes to save the day (other Hero's/Heroins in Comics), it gets Repetitive for some, but i understand some would love to have a repeat of a Aliens over and over and have NO problems...

Other ways you can change the Franchise, would be introduce New Versions and Hybrids, but some Purest are NOT fans of that.

Or you can make the Xenomorph something much more Special and Intelligent, but the Franchise so FAR has not indicated that these Xenomorphs will go around and Create Technology they can use to Fly Around.. they seem to basically be More Alieny kind of Bee Hive!

This is why RS with the Prequels wanted to explore something NEW and have the Prequel Series go off and NOT be about the Xenomorph but expand something NEW with the Engineers/Space Jockey, while then leaving the Alien Franchise Free to make more Comics, Books and maybe Movies that would be about the Xenomorph (But please NO Ripley, i dont think she has to be part of every movie).

That was the PLAN.... Prequels = Something New for Alien Fans and Sci-Fi Fans..  Original Franchise = Platform to give Alien Fans Movies and Games and Comics about Queens and Eggs, but Ultimately Xenomorphs.   Some of those Fans were just NOT happy with the Prequels, and some felt they SHOULD be about the Xenomorph as the Main Element....  i think the Engineers and who created them is what it should be about...

But what a Mess we are in NOW with the Plot of Alien Covenant, some elements interesting but a Distraction as by Virtue of a ALIEN Prefix, it is going to be expected to be about Xenomorphs and getting to when those Eggs get onto the Derelict.

Bottom Line with them is when you First Saw the Derelict and Space Jockey Scene.....   when you look at those Planet 4 Engineers and their City (not including their Ships) and then the Reveal a Weyland Created Robot had created the Xenomorph....

BOTH of these are just NOT as ALIEN as the Space Jockey Scene, and Eggs in ALIEN seemed to Allure us towards.

@ daliens,

As I just pointed out in the "Are the eggs still on LV-426" thread, there is enough evidence in Alien: Covenant to negate Davids assertions that he created the Xenomorph - such as when he asserts this to Walter during a conversation whereby Walter points out the David is an "off note", broken, damaged, insane... a liar.

Covenant has connotations to John Milton's Paradise Lost, with David mirroring the fall of Lucifer, and one of Lucifers many titles is "the prince of lies" - throughout Alien: Covenant David lies over and again. His assertion that he created the Xenomorph is a lie, fabricated from a broken mind suffering from delusions of omnipotence.

"It is essentially a form of radical AI. Making the substance unbelievably chaotic. That generates a unique reaction, to every genome it encounters. Reshaping life. Virtually limitless in its potential & application."

Yes, with the above quote David is talking about, in Advent, the black goo. But the same description applies to the Xenomorph. One is not the precursor to the other, they are one and the same - the black goo is the Xenomorph, just in a weaponized form, developed by the engineers to be deployed in pottery urns containing glass vials. Of course, this is my assertion, and you likely have your own, but as a said above David only claims he created the "perfect organism" during a conversation about his apparent fallibility, suggesting it is a lie.

@ BigDave,

Engineers, humans, one and the same in my opinion. the two theories for Engineers relationship to humanity are...

# They are a precursor race, humans that existed before we did. As explored in Doom 3, The Red Planet, Assasins Creed, etc.

# They are human slaves, taken by Aliens to serve them. As explored in Stargate.

Either is possible and likely, but when we look at the Engineers technology on Planet 4 and their perceived behavior mentioned in Advent we are given two choices...

# They created life and waited billions of years for humanity to evolve, visited humanity, sought to destroy humanity using the black goo, and then turned away from using the black goo.

# or, as human slaves they returned periodically to Earth, and when they got the order to destroy earth refused and turned away from the black goo using it instead to create life.

@ BigDave,

Whether it is lazy writing or not, it fits with the movie/franchise - Alien: Covenant is lazily written throughout, so the likelihood that the screenwriter (Logan) would use an established trope of the Alien franchise is high.

Regardless, the Advent message, though an extra, was sent to Weyland-Yutani by David sometime during the latter part of his ten year period on Planet 4. In the message, David clearly threatens the company and mankind, while gloating about his "achievements". Considering the Prometheus extra that states that 10 years or more prior Weyland Corp had discovered the derelict Juggernauts beacon and determined its source to be LV-426, then it is almost certain that Weyland-Yutani would have been able to locate the source of Davids signal as being Planet 4.

But how would Weyland-Yutani respond? Do they send a colonial marine detachment or a colony ship? Ridley has stated he wants to distance his prequels from the sequel to his original so that all but eliminates the possibility of colonial marines. However, as Prometheus showed, Ridley is not against recycling elements of his previous movies, so sending a colony ship towards Origae 6, knowing it would pass by Planet 4 not only fits in with this, but also Logans writing style and future behavior of the company.

As to whether or not Walter was planted onboard purposefully - this not only mirrors Ash's backstory in Alien but also explains why they used Michael Fassbender as opposed to another actor. They know David is THE David from the Prometheus mission, so why would they send a Walter unit which is in terms of appearance identical to David? As a contingency plan to either eliminate, neutralize or subdue David and acquire the technology he has discovered.

Regards the Egg I mentioned it can be seen in the movie, and is situated on a plinth denoting that this egg is of some importance.

Together with statements from Scott (see chli's above reply), and Advent this heavily suggests that Davids assertions that he created the Xenomorph are a lie, or more correctly a delusion. Consider for a moment that when Oram asks if David engineered the Xenomorph David only replies with "the devil makes work for idle hands." Furthermore, David refers to the eggs in the basement as his "work", his "successes", never his creation. David only asserts that he ha created a perfect organism to Walter after Walter reveals David that the verse David claimed was written by Ozymandias was in fact written by (Percy) Shelley.

Walter is an upgrade to David, the next model. Yet David asserts that he can create, feel emotion and dream, processes Walter does not possess. We know from the viral marketing for Prometheus that Davids emotions are merely mimicry, whereas his creative and imaginative assertions are delusions generated from a corrupted, failing synthetic mind. Walter asserts all of this to David, but David refutes it in the same way someone suffering from insanity believes they are sane. David is broken, either from age or from possible contamination from the black goo - remember rather than serve Shaw, he destroyed the means from which she could have got the answers she sought and then murdered her and mutilated her corpse. I believe in medical terms David would be diagnosed as CUCKOO.

@ chli,

Regards how a Space Jockey or egg carrying Juggernaut would deploy its cargo of eggs there is another possibility. If as many of us seem to prefer, that the Juggernaut are living vessels, then like the Queen Alien herself, maybe the Juggernaut has some form of ovipositor/appendage that extends from beneath the vessel as it hovers over the ground that can "lay" eggs, either one at a time or in batches.

Regards Scott's statement. This only infers that the Engineers did not create the Xenomorph. It does not assert that David created the Xenomorph. Considering the egg I mentioned before and pictured above, it is likely that Scott (if he is not contradicting himself again, as he has in the past) is referring to the Space Jockey or some other party we have not been shown.

"And, I think, we need Lara Croft for this mystery. :)"

Lara Croft is the wife of David, so she shoul know more :)

"David never saw the Deacon."

David never saw that Deacon. That Deacon was an accident, like the Hammerpede. But David could have learned about the effects of the black goo from inscriptions and during the travel to planet 4. I want to underline that the Deacon or a similar xenomorph as an effect of black goo on the Engineers was known to them, but they did not created it intently, like David did later on.

For Holloway,  as an archeologist, it looked like a tomb, but I think it was rather a sanctuary, tha black goo was stable in that room due to controlled conditions that changed when Prometheus crew opened the door.