Comments (Page 243)
Latest comments by Alien fans on news, forum discussions and images!
Not many people know that the facehugger from the film was not designed by Giger, but by O'Bannon, following Ridley Scott's suggestions to combine elements from various works from Giger's Necronom. The early facehugger designs by Giger are those featured in the mural from Prometheus:
“There was a big meeting,” O’Bannon told Cinefex in 1979, “and everybody was talking at the same time and trying to tell Dicken what the hell it should look like (the facehugger). Finally, Ridley pulled out Giger’s book and said: ‘Look, I want these fingers here on this page and I want that over there for the back, and then I want the tail from this other page.’ And Dicken was just confused. So I asked Ridley if I could take a try at it, and he said, ‘Go ahead.’ So I went over to the art department with Dicken and we took a drafting table and a huge piece of paper and some pencils. I drew two heads on the paper, and then I opened up Giger’s book and put it down in front of us.”
“‘All right,’ I said. ‘Ridley said he wanted part of this body, right?’ And I sketched it out. ‘And he liked these fingers.’ So I added the fingers. ‘And he wanted this tail.’ Well, while we were doing this, Giger came in –his plane had arrived from Switzerland- and he had some new designs for the facehugger. And they were very similar to what we were putting together on the drawing board – not identical, but similar. His had an eye on the back, and the shape of it was much more like the palm of a hand. I looked at them and I said, ‘Oh, that’s good.’ Then Giger looked at the thing I was sketching with Dicken, and he said, ‘No, that’s better, that’s much better.’ I was really flattered. So I said, ‘Then I should continue with it?’ And he said, ‘Oh, yes.’ So we went on.”
Facehugger profile. Note the cyclopean eye. Image copyright HR Giger.
O’Bannon continues: “When it came to trying to figure out what kind of a skeletal understructure the thing would need so the fingers could hook up, I got Ron Cobb over and he scrawled out his ideas – which, as usual, were excellent. Then I cleaned the whole thing up a little and did it in ink –exact size- and that’s what we went with.”
The facehugger, like the film at large, was the rare successful product of a melting pot approach to design. “I was really pleased,” said O’Bannon, “because I had kind of eclectically constructed the facehugger out of the things that Ridley wanted and the things that Giger wanted, and some good ideas from Cobb and from Dicken. Then we put the thing through a blueprint machine, got Ridley to okay it, and Roger went off and built it.”
Ridley with Giger’s Necronomicon paintings and a prototype facehugger bust. Image courtesy of mauvais-genres.
Redone the Schematic a bit better.
This (Figure B) is just a Approximate, as far as Potentially the Cargo Hold Shape if we assume its to scale to FIT inside, compared to area of the Pilot Chamber which would OVERLAP on top of the Cargo Hold, but the Cargo Hold is NOT a Circle, so its likely wrapped around as in the Image i did, where we could then assume the Pilot Chair Area and Lower into the Ground as shown in Prometheus.
This (Figure A) image i am trying to roughly estimate where the Pilot Chamber and Egg Cargo would Lie... in terms of the Derelict.. In ALIEN we never get to follow every second of the Crews Journey, so there could be the Potential of the Pilot Chamber Floor being a certain height off the ground.
The Egg and Pilot Chamber are NOT lined up exactly due to Angels.... but the Scale i have roughly as best as i can matched... we have to bear in mind these Shots DO-NOT show the FULL Rooms...
I have layed them above each other where there is a Margin of Error as far as More of a Gap Between Floors (off Camera) but i have roughly placed them and Marked in RED a potential Level Boundary... i then scaled this Marker to a SHOT of the Derelict and noticed it lined up a bit like i have indicated.
IF i assume this is a Good Estimate, then it makes the Case of the Cargo Hold being Taller than the Pilot Chamber and so makes it more Believable that the Cargo Hold may indeed FIT... well the Error of Scale is Lessened.
"let's be honest and admit this idea that the eggs are stored in a cave or silo underneath the derelict is only our wishful thinking"
Certainly i think its going to be one of those things we just would have to accept and any inconsistencies a Oversight, as i had stated in the past, the same would likely apply to the Space Jockey, we would have to accept the size difference is purely a Oversight.
A lot of work went into Prometheus as it had some vague clues to the Derelict (showing the Juggernaught) so that IF they ever showed us the Derelict Event, i dont think they would have shown that LV-426 had a Egg Silo under ground. I think with the Prequels as far as Alien Covenants sequel... i think the plan if they got to FINISH the prequels and shown HOW/WHEN those Eggs got on LV-426.. i again dont think they would have revealed that the Egg Cargo was held in a Underground Cargo Hold..
We would have been shown and have to ACCEPT that the Cargo was part of the Ship... despite the Visual Flaws surrounding that regarding Scale..
I did this image a few years ago, showing HOW it could fit under the Derelict due to shape, which would fit as you pointed out the angles the Egg Chamber seems to Snake around the Corner... and this idea and image i did years ago was how i felt it could fit... ONLY flaw being the Actual Width/Depth and Height would be IMPOSSIBLE (well a bit too small) but this was a Oversight and they could use Dr Who Tardis Technology to explain that away lol
I think you make Good Points, and i have always been one who has accepted the Cargo is on the Ship, despite some Size Differences.
Another point is indeed they Re-Used part of the SET of the Pilot Chamber for the Egg Chamber Scene... so both would have the Same Height and Depth, but the Problem comes from the Zoomed out Extended Shot of Kanes Decent, where the Chamber is Extended out via a MATT Painting, which makes the Chamber much Larger.
But these are similar Oversights to how when the Crew First Enter the Pilot Chamber they used Child Actors and so this increased the Scale of the SET by say 50% so our Space Jockey would have appeared about 21ft or so from that shot, and then back to the Prop Size of 13-15ft for the Close Ups.
These are just Visual Oversights, that we can all with Computers etc Study and Nit Pick at... but back when the Movie was made, it was NEVER expected that we would be looking at and Dissecting those Scenes in Detail... and the Intended Purpose was to show the Cargo Hold was indeed on the Ship.
A lot had been done in terms of the PLOT for the Derelict, that IF they changed it to a Underground Cave/Silo would ALTER the way we look/think about that Scene and LV-426 where as ACCEPTING its part of the Ship makes for a more simple Plot/Explanation.
we had seen the Xenomorph over and over, and maybe some Mystery should be kept...
I think, this is the main mistake. Alien had an unintended mystery. But Prometheus had mystery only for mystery. Ridley cut all cool scenes only for mystery: elder engineers (better than lone Engineer), Engineer speak (great), and Engineer in Vickers pod (it should be in movie). And we meet original Engineers in Covenant and... meh?
Although we should all throw stones at Ridley Scott because it appears he was the prime reason for the David Created it Plot Change...
I don't think so. It may be Giler's ideas.
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About Space Jockey. Giger called him as The Pilot. And we all know how looks pilot masks.
It's a helmet - no doubt.
BigDave, let's be honest and admit this idea that the eggs are stored in a cave or silo underneath the derelict is only our wishful thinking.
I edited the frame with the Kane's descent into the hold, it can be seen it has the shape of the derelict, and, while I agree the height of the hold is approximately the same with that of the derelict, that should be ok, since the pilot chamber has to be in the dome situated on top, the rest of the ship is cargo hold and corridors. If you remember, after entering through the vaginal openings, Kane & Co. went up a wall and even if the wall was not that high, the suggestion was they reached the dome, where the SJ was. Then Kane descended through a hole in the floor, through the deck from the dome/pilot chamber precisely, and one deck only until the hold. He did not pass through any other deck or the hull of the vessel, so the eggs were right below the pilot chamber, right below the dome. Also the structure was the same type for the hold and corridors. If we can still argue if the eggs were produced or not by the Juggernaut itself, for me there is no doubt the eggs were INSIDE the derelict, in the cargo hold. Ridley Scott, Giger and the rest of the production team for Alien said that due to budgetary constraints they gave up the pyramid idea and placed the eggs in the cargo hold of the ship. And it is good it ended like that, becuse until the last moment Giler wanted to have the eggs in the red cylinder silo.
There are, of course, some discrepancies regarding the proportions of the hold and derelict itself, how much they climbed from the entrance to the pilot chamber, but the fact the hold and the ship have about the same size is good enough. Nobody thought back in 1979 that someone would do such a thorough investigation.
One thing i can add to the Debate would be about the Cargo Hold.... i made this image roughly to scale.
This shows that the CARGO HOLD... can not be located under the Derelict... and if you look at the Cargo Hold and Image of Derelict above it, they are about to the right scale (based on Human compared to them) and we can see the Cargo Hold image does-not even cover all of the Cargo Hold that Cargo Hold looks like it could be at least 4-6X Larger (as far as the Length of it). So indeed it CANT fit inside the Derelict!
Only unless we suspend what we see, and its a Oversight... UNLESS the Ship uses Dr Who Tardis Technology.
In context to the OT!
If we do accept that the Cargo Hold is NOT part of the Ship and the Derelict is Parked Above it, then i think this increases the Chances of the Cargo Hold Surviving the Destruction of Hadleys Hope.
EDIT:
Done another image where i mirrored the Kane Descending Shot, Scaled the him to the Vaginal Entrance and i have noted the Space Under the Pilot Chamber with the Rectangle and placed it also in the Cargo Hold, the Arrows show the Cargo Hold Snakes around the Corners which shows even in this Mirrored Shot we could be looking at only 1/4th of the Cargo Hold maybe 1/8th.
Regardless Kane is to Approx Scale so the Egg Hold Shot is approx to Scale with the Derelict Prop.
Conclusion? Cargo Hold as Part of the Ship? Not a Chance!
"The Space Jockey...IT IS NOT A SUIT! Just look at it. There is no way it is a suit, and there is no way it was originally intended to be a suit. Writers (or Ridley) just pulled that out of their asses."
Well if its a Skeleton its a Pretty Cartoon Looking one!
Above is the Concept work for the Space Jockey and the Actual Space Jockey from the Movie.
The Head/Face (A) is what looks like a a Skull especially the Eyes/Mouth on the Actual Movie Prop, but this Skull's is Directly connected to the Chair, just as the Concept Work which is more clearer.
The Body/Rib-cage (B) does look Skeletal on both Concept and Prop.
The Arms (C) do-not look like a Typical Skeleton, even if we look at the Hands and Shoulders and the Arm is Connected to the Chair and looks more like something Synthetic rather than a Skeleton.
The Snorkel (D) does not look Biological on the Concept, but it would pass as such on the Prop, but other shots of the Space Jockey do show it to have some Piping look to it.
Above is 3 Face Huger Concepts, with HR Gigers Mural intended for Alien, and you can not the similarities with the Suits, these also are similar to the Space Jockey (previous Concept posted). This indicates the Space Jockey was envisioned as a Suit, but also its occupants are BALD Humanoids. These Predate any Production on ALIEN.
I will say that their are some Differences in Size and Aesthetics to the Derelict/Space Jockey and Juggernaught/Engineers which could allow for us to reveal the Space Jockey and Derelict as things the Engineers had Re-Engineered/Stolen..
I know people were Disappointed with the Engineers as the Space Jockey, despite them appearing in Concept Work for ALIEN. But it leaves it open to explore the Original Space Jockey Race as either.
1) A Not-So Human looking Race in a Space Suit (as Gavin had indicated)
2) A Totally Bio-Mechanical Being like the Xenomorph, by that i will refer you to this image (especially the Body).
@Gavin
I would certainly welcome something more ALIEN than the Engineers as the 15ft Space Jockey, certainly the Proportions are not the same as the Engineer suits either.
So yeah under the Mask we could get quite Adventurous, or even have the Entire thing a Bio-Mechanical Species.
@ Kage,
I agree with your sentiment, that Scott does not have the franchises best interest at heart. as for the Space Jockey I believe it can be a suit, but in no way do I believe that within that suit is an Engineer, instead imagine a combination of the following two images...
I have previously postulated that the being inside the Space Jockey suit was akin to the second image, evoking Lovecraftian elements into the Alien franchise. However, I now prefer the following - a tall humanoid alien creature whose head looks like the top image (a human proportioned alien-esque dome), but instead of the Aliens tongue-with-teeth inside the creatures mouth, which maybe could open in a similar way to Blade 2's Nomak (pictured below), is a mass of tentacles as per the aforementioned second Lovecraftian image.
"For example, I previous speculated, as BigDave will remember, the possibility that the egg morphing scene in Alien"
Certainly remember those debates, this is the same conclusion i had back 20 years ago, certainly IF this was not the case, the Xenomorph in ALIEN should have also captured Parker and Lambert so it had 2X Eggs and 2X Hosts or 4X Eggs... if the Egg Morph becomes a Queen then it makes sense to only NEED just TWO Captured Hosts. (Egg/Host).
"but the difference in appearance and reproduction method is a glaring inconsistency between the two movies."
That theory does make sense, the other alternative is the Derelict had different Variants of Xenomorph (as shown in Alien Engineers).
"As Chli contends, and I agree, David creating the Alien is a BAD idea."
It actually fits perfectly with the Prometheus Themes, but those themes could have fitted with David Creating a Perfected Version... so while it makes some sense in context to the Themes that RS was exploring... i agree what a Dumb Move, because it Tarnishes the Xenomorph ALIEN Origins, but then fitting with the themes of Perfection, there is scope that the Engineers or Race above them Discover Davids Creation and they EVOLVE/PERFECT it to become the Xenomorph from the Franchise... making David merely the Middle Man and the ALPHA/OMEGA of the Origins ALIEN.
"We were also shown by the Hammerpede's acidic blood and Fifield's original mutation that the black goo mutates whatever it contaminates with Xenomorph traits"
This was the intention, there was a connection, it was open to WHICH way this was.... these Experiments either came from the Xenomorph, or those Experiments and Xenomorph came from another Organism related, or they all derive purely from the Black Goo. So many of the Elaborated ideas from the Drafts would have HELPED as Fifield was more Xeno-Hybrid and had ACID Blood!
"Engineers have human DNA, which according to Shaw predates that of modern humans suggests that the Engineers are primitive humans that somehow left Earth"
Or certainly that Engineers and Mankind Originate from the same World... which could be Paradise (if we look at in context of the Garden of Eden).
" then who is loaning the Engineers the technology and why?"
Interesting and would indeed answer some of the Aesthetic Differences and Similarities, i think that some kind of Symbiotic Relationship could be explored, their is some Benefit to the Engineers for Sacrificing some of their kind for the Purpose of the Derelict and its Production of Eggs... The Engineers likely STEALING and Reverse Engineering the Derelict certainly appears to be Logical and would take the Franchise to something more ALIEN in its roots.
"the eggs of which were either planted, or possibly "laid" by the aforementioned sexual unison between the pilot and the vessel"
Certainly is something to BUY into, or certainly reveal they required Humanoid Females to attach to the Ship where the Ship basically has SEX with them, well uses the Females Egg Cells and Fertilizes them which then go through a Process in the Egg Chamber to become those Eggs... this would certainly add some Shock Factor.... certainly imagine the LOOK on Dr Shaws face if she discovered this was the Purpose for the Creation of Humans, for Female Sex Partners to those Ships.
"Many have speculated the Engineers may have been sterile and unable to reproduce"
Certainly appeared to be the Plan with the Concept of Prequels, in that Genetically Evolving themselves lead to becoming Sterile... which could give Good Reason for the Creation of Mankind... Looking at Alien Covenant we have Female Engineers, but could these by the Ancestors of Human Females that were taken to be MATED with Engineers? Ridley Scott suggest they are the Originals and so our LV-223 Engineers are Engineered/Enhanced versions that likely became Augmented with Xeno-Related Traits, and could indeed become Sterile... which if these beings then view from infection of some Organism related to the Xenomorph that they CAN Create/Birth Life... this could be seen by those Sterile LV-223 Engineers as a reason to WORSHIP such a Organism.
"the Xenomorphs became sterile, likely due to augmenting their DNA with biomechanical technology... Facing extinction they developed a new method of reproduction"
Certainly a interesting TWIST... but the Xenomorph seemed to not be as Intelligent as such a Race that has such Technology... unless the Ancient Organism when using the Space Jockey Hosts would become something Intelligent the ULTRAMORPHS... but when Human Host is used there is something missing/not unlocked with the Human Genome that renders the Off-Spring to become a bit backwards compared to using Engineer Hosts... it would be like Mankind mating with a Ape and say Producing Neanderthals.
"But hidden within the nano viral AI lies the knowledge, history, and consciousnesses of the Xenomorphs of old. "
I am reply to bits as go along, so it seems like i butted in along the way, but indeed as i go further to your posts, i find it VERY interesting with this THEORY ;)
" If one such vessel was responsible for laying the eggs on LV-426, it is a logical deduction that they will have been other such vessels performing the same task elsewhere"
Certainly as i discused with my prior post, the potential for there being just ONE Ship/Hold of Eggs is Unlikely, and your TWIST on the subject is very interesting.
"Finally, and again apology's for the TLDR post,"
I think it was Necessary to Explain in Detail your ideas, which i now can Grasp and Applaud... certainly the DEVIL is the in Detail and for the most Part i can get on board with such a PLOT.
"Could it be, as we were shown in Prometheus that the Juggernauts being sentient ordered the chosen Engineers on LV-223 to unleash the xenomorph weapon on Earth"
I think the Rebellion Aspect is a Theme to KEEP... i would buy it more that the Engineers are a Creation of the Slave Race that are the Space Jockey, which lead to a Rebellion and FALL of the Ancient Xenomorph... so the Engineers Re-engineered the Technology.
Going back to what i mentioned earlier about what IF the Eggs when infecting the Space Jockey Race would Create ULTRAMORPHS that would evolve to become Intelligent like their Ancestors... but Human Hosts (or Planet 4 Engineers) would not become as Civilized and would need Nurturing to become that more Intelligent Species...
Then if we take such a IDEA and expand that to David and IF he then Engineers those Human Embryos to become a NEW Humanoid Race... WHAT HAPPENS if these Humanoid Creations of David become the PERFECT Host to RESURECT the Ancient Intelligent ULTRAMORPH Xenomorph Species?
That would be Full-Circle and interesting ;)
Thanks for the in-depth explanation Gavin, certainly is a route i think would be a Good Place to go.... i think potentially this could ELEVATE the Xenomorph by giving us a Ultramorph Variant.
Once we have some Ultramorphs, their version of the Hive Mind could control and enable the Xenomorphs to be used as a Work Force to carry out Tasks that they would not have been able to do so, without the Ultramorphs unlocking the Xenomorphs Hidden Intelligence..
so YEAH i think such ideas would WORK!
Hope Disney/Fox are paying attention to your post and some of the replies here.. as i think this could be the WAY to go!
You could EVEN.... go back to the Themes of Prometheus... where a Hubris of the Ultramorph then passing on and influencing the Xenomorphs, which can Multiply Quicker with Human Hosts... could eventually see the Xenomorphs OVERTHROW the Ultramorph/Their Ancestors.
Because lets FACE it... if we was to go back in Time and take 100 Cave Men Babies and Raise them with the best Education we have.. then they could just as easy Match the Accomplishments of Modern Man.
Where left to the Caves they would just Write on Walls with their own Feces!
