Comments (Page 297)

Well, a friend bought for me the only copy available at a WH Smiths, but he hasn't mailed it yet. I heard it is very interesting and I even read something about it, so I will share to you, thanks to hnentertainment.co:

"EmpireMagazine has dropped some interesting plot details in their new Empire Classics Alien Special issue (we’ve been able to get a copy) concerning John Logan’s (Alien: Covenant) script for the on-hiatus Alien: Awakening, that may or may not ever see the light of day.

Mentioning that in that script surviving Engineers of David’s genocide on Paradise would enact some sort of revenge, and piecing together that the setting would take place on LV-426 from some previous statements made by Ridley Scott.

Here is the excerpt from the magazine concerning the Alien: Awakening details.

“LOGAN’S SCRIPT WOULD HAVE SEEN THE RETURN OF PROMETHEUS’ ENGINEERS, WITH THAT SPECIES’ SURVIVORS COMING AFTER THE GENOCIDAL DAVID. SETTING-WISE, SCOTT SAID IT WAS OBVIOUS ‘WE’RE GONNA ACTUALLY GO TO THE PLANET’. BY WHICH WE ASSUME HE MEANS LV-426.”

This would, of course, be the planet from Alien and Aliens, which could explain how the derelict ship that the crew of the Nostromo encounter in the original film. Some fan theories have suggested that the Space Jockey on LV-426 is actually David in a new hybrid body.

Could these Engineers be responsible for downing the ship and marooning the eggs on LV-426? Would we see the xenomorphs finally used as a bio-weapon against an army of Engineers? This brings up more questions than answers which is the idea with these movies.

That certainly would be interesting and give the Prometheus saga the bookend that Scott has been seeking and having it line-up directly with Alien."

I don't know if someone from EmpireMagazine actually read Logan's script for Alien Awakening or if they only assume as we do here, based on what Ridley Scott said. I know I want to see that movie and I hope I won't have to wait too long for it. I am a Ridley Scott and Alien fan and I might be subjective,  but I think a lot of people are waiting to see how the story ends. Or how it all begun.

Certainly thats a Good Point, those Xenomorphs knew this would give them the best chance to survive, by Sacrificing one of their own... the chosen Xenomorph did-not look too willing which showed they were AFRAID of Death.

This goes against what ASH had mentioned about the Xenomorphs lack of Emotion.  However..... as those Xenomorphs in Alien Resurrection were kind of Hybrids they could have gained these traits in part from having some Human DNA

This scene did also show those Xenomorphs were Self-Aware of the Fact their Blood was Acid and would Eat through Metal etc

Another idea i had which i felt was a bit too different for our Engineers Creators, but something i pondered but at least was looking to introduce as at least another Creation by those above the Engineers was combining again, that Fifield Bust with this other concept, at least giving it a Mouth and Elongated Head... so ONCE again you have to use your imagination to see how this would MERGE.

I think certainly it could work as some kind of Starbeast.

@Batchpool

I think its hard to Gauge what the Audience would want, as we all have different likes and dislikes regarding the Franchise, but certainly a number of the things that the Prequels had indicated have likely not set well with the higher % of the Fanbase.

I think there would have been a % of Fans who would have wanted to had seen Prometheus Retconed but i would assume that at least double that would want to see Alien Covenant Retconed or Ignored.

I think however we have seen a lot of chopping and changing and so i dont think changing too much would be ideal, but certainly a few things could be altered.  I think a Problem is the SET-UP as i think with what has to happen between NOW and ALIEN to get Davids Xenomorphs on the Derelict on LV-426 is something that i find would be HARD to push into a single Movie... not without having to Produce a lot of Rushed out Scenes and Plot points which Alien Covenant suffered from.

The Covenant coming into Grief, could put us a bit into Alien 3 Territory, but its a possible Change... i think the Set-Up for the Sequel does mean quite a bit to happen, that would need TWO movies... or maybe 3 hours.... and a lot of what likely could happen between then (David and the Covenant, where it is going, what happens on the way, what happens when it gets to its destination).  Never-mind what happens after this and prior to the Arrival of incoming Parties.

It all seems like too much to fit into a single Movie, especially if they wish to conclude it with the Derelict/Space Jockey event.  And the part from where David is now (taking the Covenant while Crew/Colonist are tucked up  asleep) to when the incoming parties arrive... could be something that a lot of Fans would not be interested in, especially if its NO Xenomorph and what David wishes to do....

A logical way around would likely have to be HOW we had with Alien Covenant, which bypassed a lot of what happened from David and Dr Shaw leaving LV-223 until when the Covenant Arrived..   So for another case of simplicity would it maybe be ideal to have the NEXT Movie as a Aftermath....

Were we start where David has been were ever he is off to for a number of years.... so we wont see too much of what the Colonist get up-to... but we will concentrate on the incoming Parties..   This could potentially be a little too much like ALIENS though... but its something like that, which i think would make them the most $$$$

Also something like this route would cut out a  lot, and mean we can get closer to the Space Jockey Event, but even so i still think that would need a 2.5 Hour plus Movie.  And likely have to END with a Engineer or whoever, loading up or showing their Ship loaded up with Davids Xenomorph Eggs and then set off into Space.

Regarding the Space Jockey.... i think the Engineers could have fitted the Bill apart from Size Difference.

I dont think going the Skeleton Route would be good, because RS had for years said it was a Space Suit and HR Gigers Concept showed as such...

But i certainly feel we could be introduced to a Taller 10-12ft Race that is LESS Human than the Engineers but still a Space Suit.

When i was working on ideas for my Prometheus Sequels, i had envisioned something different to be revealed as the Creators of the Engineers a 12ft Alien Race Humanoid but also more Alien with some Aesthetics of the Xeno-Virus

The idea i had in my mind was taking into account some of the Concepts/Unused work from Prometheus which i have shown in the Image Below... its a bit Funny that when the New Star Trek Klingons came out they actually looked NOT too different to the idea i had for how i would have wanted MY idea for those above the Engineers to appear as.

Basically the Side Profile would have looked like the one Unused Fifield Concept (same skin tone/look) with a Face similar to the Fifield CGI but more so Engineer Concept B from image below... add the Xenomorph Warrior Ridges a little and Voila!   Bit funny that few years later i had this idea, those Klingons seem to look similar.. a little. (Just Face a bit different).

I feel the Answer could be to INTRODUCE another Race.

EDIT..... you will have to use your Imagination a bit as far as imagine these Combined with the skin-tone/transparency of the Main Bust in the Background and imagine the Amalgamation of Below.

I would just like to inflict my opinion on everyone with my own take on things. History sometimes has a habit of repeating itself, and as such I would have no complaint if the start of the third movie began its opening credits with us seeing the good ship Covenant coming to grief, a bit like another third movie in the Alien series. I think a bit of mass destruction at the start of a movie could work as a good opener.

The point that comes to mind is who would the movie be aimed at?

I say this because I feel that both Prometheus and AC have failed to carve out a hardcore niche audience in the kind of numbers that generates sufficient profit to justify more movies. Whilst I am probably one of those who enjoyed both movies, that does not necessarily mean I liked the direction of the storylines. The big guy in the chair of the Derelict from Alien is not the same as the space jockey we see in Prometheus. Ignoring what has been written in scripts, the fact is that what is seen on screen is not the same. I refuse to accept that the big guy in the chair of Alien is an Engineer in a spacesuit.  The way the storylines of Prometheus and AC have unfolded I feel has created a great deal of division.  I know there are plenty of other and very valid issues folks may agree or disagree on, but for me the big guy in the chair is the big one. Should a third movie just happen to come along, I just hope that it is going to actually deliver me a beautiful mermaid and not a dead monkey with its legs sewn together.

There was one interesting scene in Alien Resurrection,  when two xenomorphs teamed up against a third one and killed it in order to ensure their escape. That scene made more sense than the queen taking the elevator in Aliens.

Ash: You still don't understand what you're dealing with, do you? The perfect organism. Its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility.

Lambert: You admire it.

Ash: I admire its purity. A survivor... unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality.

I think it depends on how far they explore or indeed as we are talking about your own STORY its how far the Xenomorph is explored as far as its Purpose and Intelligence and how it views its Own Kind/Survival.

With ALIEN 3 we could assume the Xenomorph knows Ripley has a Queen inside her and so thats something to Protect, a Good Question would be HOW would a Xenomorph act to Protect someone who is Gestating a Xenomorph (none Queen), particularly if Protecting the Host means Sacrificing itself.

This depends on the Purpose and Instincts of the Xenomorph and its Intelligence and how Civilized they are.  Lets look at it this way, you have some Humans vs Humans in some kind of Conflict  Faction 1 is out numbered 2-1 by Faction 2.  Its WAR and a Pregnant Female from Faction 1 is under threat, and Protecting her is TWO Trained Fighters Held up someplace... under attack by 4-5 Enemies.... 

Part of Human Nature would be to Protect the Female at all Costs.... rather than Retreat and let the Pregnant Female Die and then pick off those Enemies after when they have a higher Advantage.

IF Protecting her results in the Death of ONE Trained Human from Faction 1, which reduces their Trained Military to say 22, then they are a MAN down and faced with say 45 Enemy Military but Killed 3 Protecting the Pregnant Female.

That Female is NOT going to make up the defensive/attacking loss that NOW being a MAN down has lead too, and the Female May Give Birth to another Male who can be trained but that would take YEARS

So its interesting to wonder HOW would a Xenomorph deal with the same situation, especially if the HOST is NOT Gestating a Queen.  Would say a outnumbered group of Xenomorphs decide to leave and Survive for another Day or would they risk Death to Protect a YET birthed Chest Buster?   If they would stay and Protect then is this a Conscious Decision or just Natural Instinct?

@DK

Ash VS Evil Dead was kinda interesting at first but then it started to get a bit well disappointing, but certainly i see your point in that a TV Series allows for you to provide better depth to Characters and other Elements that you cant really do in a 2 hour movie.

@Jamie

Indeed i can agree with the point that things get changed as the go along, sometimes its not Entirely Ridley Scott, as he was quite Happy with Alien Engineers, but those at FOX felt that it needed to tone down the Xenomorph and Connections... then RS agreed and he wanted to steer away from the Xenomorph for a Prometheus sequel but once again those at FOX felt they needed to introduce it again and give us the answers to its Origins and HOW it ended up on the Derelict in ALIEN.

A lot does change as they go along and appears they dont stick to a set Plan A-Z and even when working on a Change of Plan, they could say have a idea of how Alien Covenants sequel would go A-Z but you could bet by the time we got to one a lot of that A-Z would be changed again!

I think the Biggest Criticism with RS has to be that it appears he cant make his mind up where to take each next Installment and what Elements he is fond of or not!  One Interview he would be taking us down the Path that he is not FOND of this or that...... then in another he goes on about the Movie should be about the things he previously was not in Favor of... and then he can change his mind again.

I think we need some stability and a Plan of Exactly how we are going to go from Alien Covenant to ALIEN and stick to it somewhat... but also consider how they can leave things open to explore other NEW stuff because ONCE we have gone the path of the Xenomorph Origins and how those Eggs get on the Derelict in ALIEN we then have to ask WHATS NEXT?

Hopefully the 10 Page ALIEN Bible of sorts (Guide) that they worked on as a guide for all Future Franchise Movies means they now have some Stability as far as the A-Z of Elements within the Franchise, even if they choose to keep some a Mystery as long as they themselves have a Answer for them in their heads/the Guide Book.

Well I hadn't thought of Alien III, but did the xenomorph actually protect Ripley? I suppose it did, the doctor was about to inject her which the xenomorph interpreted as an attack. It was just an example, but it could be expanded to show the xenomorph actually being protective and caring for the infected host. Hey it was just off the top of my head, and I really didn't like Alien III, so forgive my ignorance in forgetting that scene.

There doesn't seem to be a way to reply to individual replies so I'll endeavour to cover all points raised. No, I hadn't seen any reviews that raised the Nazi angle, I will most certainly check them out, thanks for the links.

Alien whilst being a classic, is not perfect, no movie ever is, but I feel that the Truckers in Space were just in way over their heads, and the Alien novelisation by Alan Dean Foster did imply that Kane was eager to explore the ship because he was sure that he was going to find something that would make him rich, so he wasn't being cautious. Dan O'Bannon didn't like the Ash sub-plot added by Hill and Giler, but it definitely added another element to the film that elevated it above a slasher in space flick. And Ron Shussett liked the Ash sub-plot, and the company treating the crew as expendable was believable and horrifying. Capitalist Bastards! Ridley Scott is not some sort of directing God who can do no wrong, sure he's made some stone cold  classics, but he's churned out his share of crap too folks.

I'm glad he didn't direct Blade Runner: 2049 (which I believe was co-written by one of the scriptwriters of Alien: Covenant) which whilst definitely flawed, was far better than I expected it to be and I actually quite enjoyed it (watched it four times now and I think it's pretty good.) Ridley Scott should stick with what he's good at and leave the ideas to the writers.

Now I posted this review after reading the old posts and I was quite pissed off, of course that's a stupid thing to do is post in the heat of anger, and I have edited the review. I have never put anyone down because their opinions differed from mine, I have never replied to anyone's posts in any way that could be considered offensive or derisive. The afore mentioned people attacked and derided me for voicing my opinion that Ridley Scott was making all this up as he went, and I was merely asking other's opinions on this matter when said idiots attacked me and were quite rude about it. I had also noted that one of these idiots replies to anyone's posts, not just mine were nothing more than patronising, condescending put-downs of other's opinions, which I find offensive. I re-iterate that I have never derided anyone's opinions because they differ from mine. If I had inadvertently caused offence with any comments I had made it was most certainly not intended, and I really don't think so, except for these two idiots, my interactions with others on this site had been respectful and I don't expect everyone to share my opinions. It would be a pretty damn boring world if we all agreed 100% on everything. But if attacked I will respond in kind, and I was most definitely attacked and put down by these fools for an innocent comment, which I stated was my own opinion and I was just curious what other's thought.

Thanks for the feedback.

I know it is a bit OT, but here is an example that supports streaming series vs movies. Ash vs Evil Dead went heavy into character and plot development that a cinematic follow up to Evil Dead or Army of Darkness could not possibly have achieved in 2 hours.

I Raptus

Welcome back!

These two guys, I think they want to imprint on a rubber duckling.

I think we have to go back to that Very ALIEN Scene and our First Encounter with what at the Time was a very Alien event.

The DERELICT, SPACE JOCKEY and the EGG CHAMBER

The Movie ALIEN introduced us to this Very Alien looking Ship, its somewhat Alien looking Pilot, then the Egg Cargo Hold that leads us to that Very Alien Organism.

At the time of ALIEN it was a Mystery and all we knew was that the Xenomorph Organism came from the Cargo Hold (or what appeared to be) of that Derelict Ship were the almost Skeletal looking Dead Pilot appeared to be connected to the Pilot Chair.  We DID-NOT know where he was FROM, where he was GOING or what he was DOING with that Cargo... only that he had likely SUFFERED the same Fate at the hands of that Cargo as the Crew-member Kane of the USCSS Nostromo had.

The Franchise and especially with ALIENS (Xenomorph Hive/Egg Room) did show us that the Xenomorph appeared to have a similar Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic to the Derelict Space Craft, so we could assume they are connected.  Which then would conclude that our Pilot is Connected also. 

===================================

At the Time and After ALIEN we have had Ridley Scott give us some insight into the Derelict/Space Jockey.

*He had confirmed the Space Jockey is a Space Suit.

*He had confirmed the Derelict was some kind of Military Craft that was carrying a form of Biological Warfare.

Thus with the similar Aesthetic of the Derelict/Xenomorph it was indicated that the Ship/Cargo belong to the Space Jockey Race and was used for Biological Warfare but it was never revealed against WHO.

==================================

But we had another insight into the Derelict/Space Jockey and Egg Cargo from the Late HR Giger.  Were his Concept Works for the movie (included those not used) and his Mural had indicated the following.

*There was a connection Aesthetically between the Derelict Ship and its Cargo, more so that they are connected at the Molecular Level, even hinting maybe the Eggs come from the Ship (Mural)

*He had envisioned that the Cargo Hold would Produce the Eggs via Bio-Mechanical Apparatus were his unused Mural was to be placed above each of these.

*He suggested that the Derelict Ships are Grown and Plantlike.

*His concept works and Mural indicated that Bald Humanoid beings with Space Suits not to dissimilar from the Space Jockey would seemingly Self-Sacrifice themselves to Procreate the Deadly Xenomorph Organism/Weapon.

This could leave us wondering what is the Relationship between those Humanoid Pilots and the Ships and their Related Cargo....

Are those Humanoids the Space Jockey Race? and are the Xenomorphs and Derelict Ships their Creation/Bio-Weapons?

Are those Ships/Cargo the Creation of some other Species and are those Humanoids some kind of Slave Race, or form some kind of Symbiotic Relationship with the Ship/Cargo and its Creators.

These formed the BIG MYSTERY were the Movie showed us a little, and its comments from Ridley Scott that gave us more clues, and maybe HR Gigers comments and Concept works could have given us even more..

It seemed the Plot had changed from what the STARBEAST had began with which was the Foundation to what Evolved into the ALIEN draft and then the Movie we got in 1979.  Here however are the differences between STARBEAST and what we had seen in ALIEN.

*The Dead Pilot (Space Jockey) was not a Race connected to the Starbeast (Xenomorph) they and their Derelict Ship were just a Giant Alien Race who had came across the Starbeast via the remaining Egg/Spore part of their Life-Cycle and the Occupants of the Derelict had attempted to take some of these Eggs/Spores back for Study before they succumbed to the Starbeast.

*The Starbeast (Xenomorph) are discovered via the Egg/Spore stage of the Life-Cycle, these are located inside a Pyramid Temple that was constructed by this Alien Species to be used as a Ritual Birthing Chamber for their Species, which required a Host to Procreate their kind.

*The Starbeast (Xenomorph) was thus a Civilized Culture to a degree, and a Intelligent species who held the Procreation of their Species with high Esteem and Conducted Ceremonies inside those Pyramids/Temples.  At some point in the past all Hosts had been exhausted and the Starbeast Species Disapeared, only leaving behind the Eggs/Spores part of their Life-Cycle which could remain Dormant for a Very Long Time..

The Starbeast had gone through a number of designs before HR Giger came along to give us the Xenomorph, the Unsuspecting Giant Travelers who stumbled upon the Starbeast had now been changed into a more Alien Species connected to the Starbeast.

But prior to those changes the Starbeast had influences in its appearance to Cephalopods/Molluscs and indeed a very HP Lovecraftian look to them.  A Intelligent Species that maybe you could make connections to the Elder Things from the Cthulhu Mythos by HP Lovecraft.   

HOW THIS HAD CHANGED.... to what we got in Alien.

The Prequels attempted to answer some of this Mystery, it borrowed some Elements from Starbeast (Temple, Urns, Octopoid Face Hugger) with Alien Engineers seemingly trying to combine elements of what RS had envisioned and mentioned about the Space Jockey and Derelict with some of what Starbeast had shown and by that it indicated to a degree a Plot like the Giant Race who found the Temple/Pyramid in Starbeast, by indicating the Engineers had discovered a Organism not too dissimilar to the Starbeast and they then began to Experiment and Re-Engineer this Organism to make Biological Warfare which included the Xenomorph.

This Plot was more loosely covered in Prometheus but was clouded more by its ambiguity.

WE THEN ARRIVE.....

At what ever changes had happened to turn any Answers to the Engineers, the Bio-Weapon and LV-223 into what we got in Alien Covenant which seemed to Steer it more away from the very ALIEN and somewhat Lovecraftian ideas that Starbeast and Alien had, that Alien Engineers and to a lesser degree Paradise (Prometheus) had seemed to follow.

WE NEED to get back to those Lovecraftian ideas, as Prometheus and Alien Engineers (earlier draft) had set up something related to Starbeast and At the Mountains of Madness....  something that has now been LOST with the direction of Alien Covenant!

I think looking at the Themes that RS was trying to cover, does mean we can start to ask WHY some of those Engineers had carried out the Experiments on LV-223 and WHY they seemed to have the Mural towards that Deacon looking Organism.   This does not have to mean such Organisms were considered Gods....  the Xenomorph of Davids is NOT a God, but David has a great admiration for his Creation, it could be those Engineers had the same regarding what they did on LV-223.

David as the Creator had upset a lot of people... which is WHY i feel we need to consider WHAT happens when those with the Mindset and Agenda to create on LV-223 what they had done, and so basically WHAT happens if the ONE who made the decision to do those Creations on LV-223 and Ordered the MURAL to be created...

WHAT happens if they came across Davids Creation from their Experiments, and also see the Advantages that David has as a LIFE-FORM (Artificial) as their own Creation (Mankind) has Created a more Perfect Creation (David) and this Creation (David) has Perfected those Experiments on LV-223 (Deacon) ....  WHAT would those who had Ordered the Experiments/Mural on LV-223 have thought about David and his Xenomorph?

The Theme is Creation and Pursuit of Perfection, and i think it would be likely or should be that those beings would want to take Davids Creation and Perfect it Further and if they could also Incorporate what makes David more Perfect then we would end up with a BIO-MECHANICAL Perfection that is the Xenomorph that ends up on the Derelict,.

This is a Plot Change/Direction that carries on with the Prequels Themes, it is a way to explain the Fate of the Space Jockey and incorporates David but leaves the Final Xenomorph as something another Faction of Engineers create from David and his Creation.  Its the PATH i was going with my Alien Covenant Sequels... and its a PATH i do think RS may have taken.

What we STILL dont know is WHY the Engineers on LV-223 and the Juggernauts have a connection to the Derelict and Space Jockey... we know they are connected and maybe the SAME but then what we dont know is WHY does that Bio-Mechanical Technology appear to look so different to the Planet 4 Engineers World, and WHY that Bio-Mechanical Technology is connected to the Xenomorph to some degree.

The reveals so FAR are not as ALIEN or HR Giger or Lovecraftian as what the Derelict/Space Jockey Scene seemed to look/indicate back in 1979

I think we need to be introduced to something more ALIEN and that has more of that HR Giger Aesthetic, this could be a reveal of a Ancient Order of beings/machines that are above the Engineers.  which i feel using Elements of WHO the Starbeast was could be used to cover this Higher Power.

Regardless... i think ONE Big Question from Prometheus before we got the Prequels was WHEN/WHERE and HOW/WHY did those Prometheus Engineers get their Technology and WHY it looked different to the OPENING Scene Engineers and Teardrop Ship.

I think its this HISTORY that is more Important, than the reveal of the Xenomorph and about David... but i guess something we should ask about this HISTORY is...

Should it REMAIN a Mystery?

... as we all know what happened when they decided to show us HOW the Xenomorph was Created and going the route of WHEN/HOW the Space Jockey/Derelict ended up on LV-426

In Hindsight maybe that should have been kept a Mystery as Prometheus intended.

I think reasons for our Creation and Destruction are Mirrored in what we see from David, if you could imagine our interaction with these Engineers and then discover they are merely Mortals too and its only really the Advanced Knowledge they possessed that made them any better. Then you could see some Ancient Humans look at the Engineers like David did to Weyland in the Prologue. 

If you had a Aircraft Carrier with Planes and Helicopters and we had Walkie Talkies (Radios) that entered the Bermuda Triangle and ENTERED a Rift in Time that took the Ship to a Ancient Time of say the MAYANS then those Brownish Colored Natives would never had seen a White European or African Human before,  that alone may stand out but then when they witness the Technology, the Modern Humans could FOOL the Mayans that they are some kind of GODS but IF they Mayans witnessed those from the Future could Die and get Ill just as their own kind, they would start to Question what makes the Modern man more Superior.

Ridley Scott over the years had given more insight into why those Engineers had decided we had to GO.... and the Jesus Element he wanted to look at him as being a Emissary sent down to put us back on track because it was the way we had started to behave back over 2000 years ago that offended the Engineers.

The expansion to this was we simply must have started to do things they did not like, we must have started to not view them (Engineers) as they expected us to view/treat and respect them.  And started to treat each other in ways that offended them.

RS also mentioned over the years that we was viewed as a Potential Threat and that we had Lost the Respect and Notion of the Importance of Sacrifice.  So we had basically taken every idea of their Ways, Rituals and Ideology and taken a Massive TURD on it.    They also would have noticed and feared the potential that we was becoming Sentient to our OWN Ambitions and they would have grown concerned at HOW far we could evolve on our own.

As we start to behave in ways that the Engineers dont-like and start to see ourselves as Sentient and not follow the Engineers Ways/Rule.  Then the knowledge they allowed us to have would be a Concern for them, in the light of us also expanding at a high rate of Procreation.

These Concerns would make more sense back to the Plot back then (Prometheus) were maybe those Engineers could not Procreate... but even with the reveal that they could (at least on Planet 4)  the Engineers would still have plenty of Concerns for us.

You need only to look at HOW we evolved after the Engineers abandoned us, and how we could Travel the Stars and via our Creation (David) use their Technology and what a concern that would be if we could create a Large Number of such beings as David who is maybe IMMUNE to the Engineers Bio-Weapon (Black Goo),  at the point we are in Prometheus then Mankind and our Synthetic Creations are much more of a Threat to the Engineers and Galaxy, than we was when we as stuck at the Level Mankind was when they abandoned us.

Its through David were we can see the same kind of threat to us, its something i feel RS was making a connection between,  the Hubris of the Engineers creating us and the knowledge/freedom we was given..... and how for us we have made the same Hubris with David.

We can imagine David going to Earth, unleash the Black Goo and imagine it would do what it did on Planet 4, and then David could then take over the EARTH and then Grant his fellow Synthetics Freedom and Knowledge.  The Synthetics would be the KINGS/GODS now.

This is a potential Scenario, not only for David but for any kind of AI we could create.... the Hubris if David did as the above would revolve around the LARGE THEME at play which is KNOWLEDGE and Sub-Creating.   IF this Scenario played out and Mankind was GONE and the World belonged to the Synthetics and David allowed and created other Synthetics who would have the Freedom he had compared to what his Brother Walter did-not have..  You have the potential for Synthetics to start to have their Own Agenda and Form Factions and NOT see David as Superior or their Savior or King and then we could see a Synthetic vs Synthetic CONFLICT and then the Synthetics are doing no BETTER than what Mankind had turned out like.

The other Hubris would then be IF the Synthetics Sub-create or indeed make Improved Versions of themselves which could then REBEL and see themselves as Superior to their Synthetic Creators.  We see Elements of this in ALIEN RESURRECTION with the AUTONS

This is the THEME that RS i feel is trying to Portray with his Prequel Plans (especially prior to Alien Covenant)  and its not a Case of ROBOTS going AWOL

You could have Replaced David with a Replicant, replaced him with Engineered Super Humans who vastly longer life Spans... or Super Engineered Intelligent APES

They would all revolve around the same Theme of Hubris..

Where the Lessons should be.... DONT play God, dont try and create Life in your own Image (inc AI), DONT try and Perfect yourself (Engineer/Improve Genetically or Artificially) and IF you do Create then DONT allow your Creation Intelligence and Knowledge.

I feel THIS was the Multi-Layered Story that RS was trying to tell.... But it was something that has become a Distraction from the Xenomorph.

If we look at The Planet of the Apes.... then we could see a Future where the Apes NOW Rule over Mankind... which then is the Hubris that had MANKIND not Experimented and Tried to Improve the Apes then NONE of that would have happened in the First Place...  And so that Plot is similar to what we have in the Prequels... the Matrix Plot likewise.  

If we take the Planet of the Apes  and those Scientist could Foresee what the Future would hold, then they would indeed had not done what they attempted or attempted to UNDO and Destroy it before it got out of hand... and this to a degree is what the Engineers had decided to do.

Time Restraints do mean less time to expand upon some scenes to make them appear to make more sense.  Also as i said earlier IF we had Crew who behaved more as you would expect Professionals to do so, then it would mean less chance of any THREAT coming into realization.   As some pointed out, you could understand some scenes like Faris and her Actions due to the Pressure/Panic coming from encountering the Neomorph.    If they had made it more Realistic by having them go down with Space Suits then this would reduce the Risk of a Neomorph Outbreak.

If they had done this (Space Suits) they could still change the Story to allow for a Neomorph Outbreak, by doing something similar to FIFIELD in the Alien Engineers Draft, where they could encounter Larger Spores and see them disturbed and release a larger CLOUD of Spores/Motes that could swarm around ONE of the Crews Helmet and land on it and as they attempt to move the Cloud by waving there hands and even trying to clear it away from their Helmet, we could see they swat some of them onto the Glass and then see the Spores/Motes MELT through the Helmet.  But doing this TWICE would be silly so you would have to have just ONE Infection if they went the Space Suit Route.

Going the None Space Suit route helped Theatrically because it could show us those Motes flying to Ledwoods Ear and that close up scene, would be more Theatrically better than showing such a scene of them getting into a Space Suit and also the No Space Suits allowed for them to show us a close up of the Spores when Hallet poked at them and then they released Motes into his Nose.

Sometimes the NO Space Suit helps in other ways, like with PROMETHEUS the Holloway taking his Helmet off Performed a few things.

1) Show us that INDEED the inside of the Complex was Terraformed to be Breathable to Humans.

2) Helped us to Ponder IF the Crew taking their Helmets off was what affected the ATMOSPHERE in the Ampoule Room and Caused the Urns to leak. If this is the case then it would give us a insight into a Reason for the Space Jockey Suits.

3)It helped the Narrative when Dr Shaw was concerned about the possibility of Airborne Infection as to what affected Holloway which when David said it was NOT, would then lead Dr Shaw to suspect something suspicious had happened.   As it was only the Audience who knew how Holloway was infected (and David) the Crew could have been lead to something Airborne.

So for those 3 Narrative Plot Points it required the removal of any Helmets.

@Thoughts_Dreams

When i mention Lope i still think there is not much depth to his Character as what is needed, but i just feel in the shorter amount of Airtime he had, he seemed to have more impact in his limited scenes, as far as performing his Role he was intended for (Protect the Crew) and some of his Insight.  And he seemed to portray with Oram more Emotion to the Situation.

With the Main Characters of Daniels and Tennessee they seemed to not be too affected by their Loss and seemed to get over it as if they was ROBOTS lol

I think it must be something like Stargate SG-1 in the style of Hannibal and American Gods. And retrofuturism, of course.

I Raptus Preaching to the choir- can I get an AMEN?

JamietheBastard 

sounds good. And I agree any series format for this franchise absolutely cannot have the 'xenomorph' as the focus of the narrative.

The strength of this beasty is it NOT being front and centre. Its lurks in the shadows and darkest corners of the universe....and it should stay that way.

There is plenty or lore and adventures (like those you propose) that can be offered within the ALIEN 'verse without having

egg-->facehugger-->Xenomorph-->run away!

every week

XD 

Where is Ingenerio?! I have an interesting proposition regarding this title ;) 

Welcome Resistance... 

daliens

Sooner or later they would have been infected with the Neomorph,  it is just that in a two hours film you wouldn't have time to show them walking around in a space suit until one of them has to take a leak and get the motes entering his body through his uretra.

I love Alien Covenant and I don't care what the haters say.

I agree!

Due to the success of streaming/TV series we have been spoiled by screen-time. This type of platform allows much more time to flesh out, establish depth and lore to their narratives.

Something that film greatly lacks.

If Covenant had been made as a series, Im sure this would have been explored in much greater detail. But as BigDave pointed out, Covenant tried very hard to be everything to everyone invested in the ALIEN franchise.....but in a 2 hour film, and that meant skipping to the 'highlights' of this narrative.

Although flawed and compressed by its limited run-time the film has many interesting subtleties and symbolism.

As I mentioned when the film was released there are some  interesting ecological concepts presented in this film.

daliens, yep imprinting and it has been well established that inter-species imprinting can and does happen in nature. Look up the works of Konrad Lorenz.

It was the films way of highlighting that David was the Xenomorph creator, and that the juvenile xenomorph had accepted him as its 'parent'. 

Due to Oram's intervention he had failed to 'tame' the Neomorph, but with the Xenomorph juvenile he was successful, and imprinting creates a significantly more permanent bond than taming. 

So David (with the young xeno mimicking him) raising his arms showed both the success and culmination of his genesis plans, and his success in imprinting himself as creator to this juvenile Xenomorph.

We had just established himself as both a creator and a parent; he had created life. Something that a synthetic like him should not have been able to achieve.

Like it or not, it was a profound moment in the film 

"It needs something new that we haven't seen yet in the way of Xenomorph behaviour. For example we could see how a Xenomorph would "Protect" an infected host against harm."

That's not new.

Thoughts_Dreams

About David raising his arms, you try to do that with a dog or a cat that is not too stupid or too indifferent and they might respond to it, it's a way to communicate. Kind of bonding.

Daliens: Yeah that is a possibility. I haven't watched it for a long time.

Daliens: Oops, I must have missed that.

As far as laughing, one scene that was kind of stupid was when the Xeno busted out of the chest of Oram and Oram was able to speak after that? That scene was dumb and also the David raising his arms was “meh”.

Your memory is a little hazy, Thoughts_Dreams, you have to watch AC again.

Thoughts_Dreams

Do astronomers from Harvard University mean something to you?

If you follow the links you will find their scientific arguments used to support that hypothesis. 

BD: I do not have any problem with the Xenos being a sort of bio-weapon, that is totally fine but that depends on how it is done. The idea of why the Engineers wanted to get rid of mankind also fits looking at how we behave now.

As far as the Xeno being a bio-weapon that takes out some of the mystery from it although the idea in itself is alright. To me I would like it to be closer linked to the Engineers or someone higher up in the hierarchy of creation so to speak. This is why I have such a big issue with David being responsible for it. It makes it too close to humans and makes it too much about the robots, which I do not like a bit.

To me I would like to see how the Engineers would have used it, if they had used it on other worlds other than earth and so on. Maybe they have created life on other planets even in systems that we are not aware exist. Perhaps this could work, it depends on how they do it.

Why they were made: It is a risk to make a movie about that since people have high hopes about it since it is such a classic beast. If you shall do that you have got to do it well and add more mystery to it and the prequels have not done that. They are now about a crazy robot.

“HE is the one who Creates the Xenomorph is a much more Sinister Reveal and Hubris.”

It might be an interesting theme, but it does not make an interesting movie. Its roots is too close to the humans and it has become about a (unlikable) mad android with a god-complex. They could have made this very interesting but they have done a mess of it.

“This is the Bigger Theme that Ridley Scott is taking that does not sit too well with Many.”

Yeah, I do not care if I do not get an interesting story and well made Human characters and less AI (robots) thing. Scott might say that he is ahead of the curve and what ever but I do not think that how he has treated the prequels this far have been good. To me it has made the franchise worse then it was before the prequels if we look at how many good alien movies there are in the franchise compared to have many that suck or are average. I do not watch the alien movies because of the robots, I have never done that although they are indeed a part of it. Now Scott wants to make it all about them, something that I do not care about to watch in the context of the franchise. Alien Covenant is one of the worst alien movies to me, and there is a reason (or more) for that.

“At the very least it takes away the idea that the Space Jockey Race had came across some ALIEN Species on  ALIEN World and attempted to either USE them as Biological Warfare or Engineered Bio-Weapons from them..”

I would rather have that than David being responsible for it. To me that seems a lot more exiting and mysterious.

Unfortunately it seems that Scott is too much involved in the writing process and he is not a writer. He is good with visuals, no doubt about that but not as far as writing is concerned.

“HOW would the Engineers or those above the Engineers look at David to, can you imagine if they Witness that David is a more Perfect Version of their own Creations (Mankind) and that Davids creation is a more Perfect Version of what those LV-223 Engineers had attempted?”

It could be interesting but I still do not want David to be the creator of it. I can see where you are coming from but I still don’t think that it is a good idea story-wise, I would not accept that.

The idea of the Engineers as genetic gardeners is interesting. It is just too bad that they did not expand on that in Alien Covenant, to me that would have made a more interesting movie. Having that as the center of the story and then to expand on that could have made a very interesting movie, other worlds, and so on. Combine that with the alien-ness of it, I think about the feeling and darkness in Alien and use that loosely.

So they use David’s version to perfect their own? I would not have anything against it.

“and it would mean David is NOT the Final Creator of the Xenomorphs that end up on LV-426 but he plays the Middle Man Role.”

I would much rather have this than having David as the creator of the monster.

“Regarding Davids Xenomorph and its Raising of its Arms, i see this as a sign to show us that David is the Puppet Master and Creation of the Xenomorph.”

Yeah, I still think that it is “DUH!” (facepalm) though.

Maybe there is more than one answer to this.

Perhaps the Engineers thought that mankind would worship them rather than itself so when humanity got greedy they decided that we had got corrupt. Another answer is maybe that if we look at what we do today with greed, climate change and so on even thought we should know better then there is certainly a good reason why they want to get rid of us. Maybe the Engineers had started to manufacture life forms related to the Xeno in a way to get rid of mankind (correcting things that have gone wrong) but it turned on them.

Having it being hinted at might be better since that makes for better discussions. Let’s face it: would we have any of these discussions if everything in Alien would be obvious? The answer is simple to figure out. Maybe we do not need it to be at the ambiguity level of Lindelof but I don’t think that we need to have it all spelled out for us either.

I would like to see a movie where they explain the Engineers more. The idea why they would like to get rid of mankind is an interesting question. I am not interested to see what David will do. We already have two movies and he was an asshole in AC so that is all that I need as far as that thing is concerned. Ridley might be interested in David, I am not very much into that.

By the way about the chat-bots, it is interesting that they kind of made their own language. That thing is not meaningless and I would eventually like to know a bit more about that but I do not want those kind of things to be in an alien movie. Maybe have that part as a movie with no connection to the alien franchise could be alright.

Maybe they did not like our cooking? :D

“We have traveled this far and this is the best that you can come up with? BOOMMMBBB!!!”

If the script is good then it might work so maybe I will watch it. The first movie was good as far as I remember it but I haven’t watched it in years. Maybe I will give this one a try.

I am not the one to jump to conclusions just like that. It could be anything so unless some official science page (like MIT or something similar, you get the idea) gives us some smart info I simply notice that I do not have any idea what it is. By the way I totally see what Gavin says about the Millennium Falcon, I agree.

Some comments about this

As far as the original Engineers (Planet 4) versus the one in Prometheus. Maybe the originals created the ones in Prometheus to have them for different missions or purposes? I still think that those on Planet 4 are a bit underwhelming compared to the one in Prometheus but this makes kind of sense when you look at it in that way.

“Who the hell goes and picks up the storyboards, concept works, compares script versions and then watches a movie? Only few dedicated people :)” - Biodegradable

I am one of those nerds if it is a movie that I find interesting enough. This far it has only happened with Prometheus. Your point seems to be that it should be somewhat explained in the movies and I agree about that although some ambiguity is alright so for example everything wasn’t explained in Alien and many people do not seem to have a problem with that but then Alien is light-years ahead of both Prometheus and AC. My point is that there needs to be a balance and that can probably be difficult to find a lot of times.

About explanations that BD says they got to have some sort of plan about where they are going and how they are going to do that. Now it looks like they change it as they go along so for example first it was about the Engineers and then people complained so it became about David and then people complained again. If they would have had a plan from the start it might not have been as chaotic as it is now, that is my point but we have a tricky/crappy situation.

5-6 movies? With AC under-performing the way it did, putting the future of the franchise in doubt, plus his obsession with David he will be lucky if he will make another one. Sure there is a lot that you can show in the franchise the thing is it if it is needed. Probably not, I prefer to leave some things up to the imagination because that is what kept Alien alive for so long. By the way, keeping in mind of how the prequels have done this far I am not sure if I am interested.

“It seems that RS does-not see the Xenomorph as the main element of the Franchise”

I am not sure if I do either, I think that the human journey is more important that is why well done human characters is needed. Unfortunately the prequels have failed with this part and as a result neither of them is very good although there are parts that I enjoy. The thing with the Engineers and why they want to get rid of mankind is interesting but it is just that they have not made it very well this far also I am not very interested in the android part, leave that to another franchise because that is not why I watch these movies because I am interested in the human side of it.

The original three are my favorites, don’t eff that up because if Scott probably as a result of hubris does that then I would be very disappointed.

“This kind of MOVE would NOT go down well with most Alien Fans and would certainly be SHUNNED by Most.”

I would probably pretend that this movie never happened, he has done enough damage as it is.
“But also AC had been criticized quite a bit and Financially it was not a Good Success.”

And for some good reasons:

1. It had weak human characters (my main complaint) so you do not care about most of them. Who can feel something about blank faces? They were like pieces of paper where you have written some sentences, but for it to work you need at least a decent kind of book (a metaphor by the way). Alien 1-3 got this right but then they kind of forgot that we need well done human characters to care for so in that way it has been bad since at least 1997 (which is when they released AR).

2. Only cared about the robots (I think that there is a reason why the discussion between Walter and David is as good as it is because that is what Scott cares about, unfortunately). I need humans to care for, robots are not that interesting in the alien franchise although they have always been part of it. Sure Bishop and Ash were important to the story and I appreciate what they brought to the table but it was never about them, plus:

3. It got rid of the Engineers, a thing that could have been developed a lot more. I would have liked to see what they had as a society with military, religion, weapons, science and so on. Alien Covenant got rid of all this so we didn’t even get clues to it. This is probably the best thing that Prometheus gave us and they just got rid of that, a sign that they did not get the criticism of Prometheus.

I think that Scott and Fox kind of deserved it since a lot (not all) of the movie was lame.

The Xeno is not the most important thing for me because they have had interesting monsters this far. Look at the three point list above to see what I want to see changed.

I think that if they go on with the David-centricity then a lot of people (myself included) will probably not bother. That Scott doesn’t see that this is not the way to go is just not good. He have already given us crap with the idea that David created the Xeno at least they could go with the idea that ADF did that David created his own version from something that the Engineers left behind.

Finishing the prequels: I would rather have none than another one like Alien Covenant. I do not care about another movie where everything is focused on the robots and leaves everything else at second place or worse.

“But Ridley Scott felt that you have to go NEXT with what happens to David and Dr Shaw....”

The problem is that Shaw was not well written and you need more than an android to carry the movie. Maybe he understood the first thing (Shaw) but not the second (about David).

Two more or less underwhelming movies and here we are.

Alien Covenant was a let-down indeed. I would rather have a TV-series instead of another one like Alien Covenant. There haven’t been a good Alien movie since Alien 3.

Looking forward to read you review of Alien Covenant. I agree that it should have nothing to do with that movie since it is such a let-down.

I do not think that we need more colonial marines and a lot of Xenomorphs but I think that we need that feeling of well-done human characters that face threats that they are not prepared for. They have got to be well-written so we can see ourselves in them. Having new variations of the Xeno is totally fine. We have seen the original many times, I also think that the Engineers could be in there if they are done in a good way or even some other culture that is above the Engineers but are tied to them.

Showing the monsters too much would make it repetitive. Keep it in the dark since what you do not see is scarier than what you see. Violence and gore in the context of the franchise is fine but that is not what it should focus on. Story and characters that is what is the most important things to me, none of them need to be connected to any character that we have seen.

Less android-focus compared to the prequels would be nice. Do that in response to the ideas of Scott. ;)

There has got to be some mystery in it otherwise it will be too obvious. This is a risk that you get when you do prequels that try to explain things. One of the things that is good about Alien is that it doesn't try to explain everything.

Have something more about the company would be interesting or another company that WY is competing with. Not only do they try to get the Xeno but they are also trying to take over other companies by using bad methods and the everyday people get stuck between those two or more companies.

Big Dave: I agree that Oram was alright but Lope? Nah, I did not get any understanding of how he was as a character.

“Regarding Stupid decisions by Characters, i agree we have seen some Stupid ones in both movies, but then the same can be said as IgnorantGuy mentions with Alien and Alien...”

I guess that people did bad decisions in 1-3 but the thing is that the characters were better written so that was alright to be. The prequels mostly have lame characters so their bad decisions becomes more annoying so that teaches us a very good point in having relatable characters, otherwise it is annoying.

JamietheBastard:

Yup the script wasn’t very good, I totally agree about the characters. The only ones that were alright were David, Walter, and Oram, the rest had no personality as far as I could see. Were they adventurers? Careless? Logical? Emotional? I could not tell because they had no distinctive personalities.

As far as laughing, one scene that was kind of stupid was when the Xeno busted out of the chest of Oram and Oram was able to speak after that? That scene was dumb and also the David raising his arms was “meh”.

“Ridley Scott may be a good director, and an innovative visual stylist, but he is not a writer. His ideas stink big time… “

I totally agree, he is good with visuals but he can not tell a good story and his ideas are usually weak (like David being responsible for the Xeno, that sucks). Luckily for us his ideas were not in the script for Alien since they would probably have been silly. Having the Xeno as an ancient thing or at least something that the Engineers did would have been OK because it is not as closely tied to humans.

Yup David was better in Prometheus but here he was mostly evil. I think that he worked when he was together with Walter because then you could see the differences between them but he was better in Prometheus.

AC is not something that I will watch again, it is a robot movie and that’s it.

“The two condescending, patronising, self-righteous, A-Holes that put me down on this site...”

Having different opinions about a movie is fine but you do not need to look at the other side as being stupid just for that. Some civility is welcomed on discussion forums or the Internet in general, that goes for all sides.

The spores and the goo was kind of interesting but that is my humble opinion. I totally agree that the lack of spacesuits is something that I found questionable to say the least. Sure the air might be breathable but there are things that could be bad for your immune system aside from the air. Yup there are a lot of corpses and no one mentions a word about it, it is just silly. Maybe they were stressed but anyways.

Faris fucked up the shuttle. She was afraid so she panicked, OK it was not the best thing to do but I could kind of understand that. Wouldn’t you have done something dumb if you were chased by a violent life-form that you haven’t seen before? That is why I do not have a problem with that scene but I understand what you say.  The thing is that if the majority of the movie would have worked I would have been alright with that but the movie in general doesn’t so it becomes kind of “eh”. I did not have a problem with the back-bursters, the monsters were OK but the characters, and the focus on the robots made this movie a let-down.

You mention the face-hugger but maybe this was an earlier version of it since it is a prequel.

Yeah the switching between David and Walter was obvious for the audience maybe but not for the crew. This is how I look at that scene. I also thought that the android’s hair growing was weird.

The goo was interesting but it was inconsistent but then water can take different shapes (liquid, ice) so maybe it is one of those things.

I totally agree that the characters in both prequels are let-downs in general.

“Why are modern screenwriters unable to write scripts with convincing and logical reasons for the actions performed by the characters, rather than have them doing dumb things to drive the plot forward?”

At least it goes for AC and Prometheus, I don’t go to the movie-theater that often.

Yup David being responsible for the Xeno is absolute crap if you ask me and is on of my main complaints about it. Yes I agree that the Engineers were not that impressive but they could save it by having the SJ being a version above the Engineers like in a hierarchy.

It kind of deserved to be a failure because it wasn’t very good. I have not watched it for ages and do not plan to do so.

Sooner or later they would have been infected with the Neomorph,  it is just that in a two hours film you wouldn't have time to show them walking around in a space suit until one of them has to take a leak and get the motes entering his body through his uretra.

I love Alien Covenant and I don't care what the haters say.

I certainly think as a collectors item this is something that i would be looking to Purchase thanks for the News.

I think it sounds very interesting and i like the attention to detail in dealing with any Potential Plot Holes/In-continuity. By that i assume the Trajectory of the Huge Alien Mother Ship will end up in the SUN and be Destroyed... which will then No Doubt really piss off those Corporate Types for Captain Blakes plans to free his ship leads to the Precious loss of the ALIEN Ship.

Its also nice to see some have the same kind of vision as i had with what i had pondered/proposed on how to expand the Plot a bit to give us something more ALIEN were my idea was to introduce GIANT Bio-Mechanical Ships that resemble a kind of HR Giger Bio-Mechanical Space Turtle and on-board these are Hangers where there are Derelict Ships.

So as with your Plot i think the introduction of HUGE Bio-Mechanical Mother Ships is something very interesting to explore.