Comments (Page 378)

This video below sums up the whole CGI v practical FX perfectly!

In a nutshell CGI is used best to compliment scenes, and is typically not suited for use on main antagonists/creature features

While we're at it, lets look at The Thing (2011) VFX breakdown :) 

It makes me appreciate the work that goes into CGI and the video is a great post. That adult neomorph just didn't seem to receive the same treatment as this video.

BigDave said, "Your idea does leave us with a very very interesting way to have David Return in future or the 3rd act, by virtue of a Company Ship arriving to the Covenant....  which provides David a means to Hijack the Ship, infect some Crew and land it on Origae-6 and i think a scene like this where Daniels is Faced with seeing a Rescue Ship arrive.... only to find David on it and then unleashes Xenomorphs on the Surviving Colonist."

I really do like that idea of David somehow returning into the film.  It just needs to be done in a way where it could have never been predicted.  It also shouldn't be done in a stupid way, like David crashing the Covenant into Origae-6 and somehow ejected out of the ship with a parachute.

Maybe David could have his head ripped off again since Shaw isn't an expert stitcher, so in a fight, it could more easily be ripped off.  So, David's head is left on the ship lying around somewhere.  Some WY employee sees David's head and listens to his lies.  Still, there are more than one WY employee on the ship now and after documenting the mayhem that is on the Covenant, everyone is not to be trusted.  So!  Instead, David sees that his lies won't work.  He thinks to himself, "Fine.  If that's the way you want it.  FINE!"  David then takes over the Covenant because he uploaded some of his programming into the ship.  Somehow he gets a spare Walter model in storage to turn on and downloads his programming into it.  David doesn't like this because he finds his own body more comforting and better looking too.  David/"Walter" then gets on the WY ship as you say and finds a lander of some sort and lands on Origae-6 as a rescue ship.  Yet, instead, it's David.  Still, when "Walter" walks off the ship, Daniels heart soars, yet she is confused because how could Walter be here?  "Walter" walks briskly to Daniels like he's just seen his long-lost lover.  As he gets close enough for a hug, HE STABS DANIELS!

Of course, the back story of how David got on the ship would be left to a mystery until the end.  So, the audience thinks it is Walter walking off of the ship almost running towards Daniels.

I didn't like how in A:C that some fans knew that Walter was actually David.  The fans could tell because of the directing.  It's disappointing really.  David fooled me though!  Still, I think for most viewers, it was predictable.

Somewhere in Northern Italy... Liguria/Italian Riviera

Bordighera

Glad you like it BigDave.

That image was created and shared by Meli in 2012.

I started this topic last October.

Thank you.

daliens - 'If Ridley Scott doesn't get to continue with the prequels we can talk about the curse of Tut-Ankh-Corman :)'

Lol, you've solved the mystery. 8)

Indeed RS did kind of say he would be heading for a War of the Worlds...

I think this is kind of his ambition, so that the prequels open up this kind of Scenario... i am not sure the sequel would be quite this, but then RS had mentioned that 3-4 Parties would be arriving which by arriving i think we can rule out David, Colonist and Xenomorphs.

So 3-4 additional arriving parties could be interesting, but then maybe RS also meaning that it would be about 3-4 parties total and not actually 3-4 that are at Origae-6 after David arrives but 3-4 parties that end up at Origae-6 that are NOT there as of the end of Alien Covenant.

I think a eventual War of the Worlds sounds interesting but would surely conflict the events of ALIENS on wards.... which is what has got me thinking before..

IS Ridley Scott Pondering Rebooting ALIENS on-wards?  we have to remember Alien is 17 years odd after Alien Covenant, David will not arrive at Origae-6 until 10 years prior to Alien and we can safely assume Origae-6 is NO WHERE near LV-426

So when is all said and done... the connecting movie to ALIEN could take place within what 2-5 years prior to ALIEN as far as how long the Derelict has been there..

so any massive War of the Worlds, the company knows about LV-223, Origae-6 and Planet 4 from Davids Advent Message... In-continuity with the Alien Franchise..

would not be a problem if Aliens on wards DID NOT HAPPEN

If this was a idea, i dont think it would be a good one as removing Aliens from Canon would upset at least 50% of the Fanbase maybe much much more..... and i doubt Disney would do that.

More Chance Disney would Re-boot the Prequels if i am honest.

Its actually a pretty Good use of CGI, this whole Scene seems to look very good, seems to done it Justice, its a shame some of the Xenomorph and Neomorph CGI appeared to be lacking...   It had the same kind of look like THE THING 2011 where towards the end of the movie the CGI just appeared more inferior compared to early on.

Certainly also gives us a good look into the Black Goo, it now appears the Substance Invades a Host and then Replicates/Mutates inside some of the Cells of the Engineers, Cells as in Fluid Cells so like Blood etc...  and then inside the Pathogen just keeps reproducing over and over until it escapes from the Engineers.

You could certainly imagine this kind of Reaction inside of a Engineers Space Jockey Suit, would eventually try and explode out of the Suit, and thus cause those Holes we saw in the Engineer Suits in Prometheus.

The Problem is the Prometheus Engineer Suits appeared to be Hollow, as though the Engineers just broke down to nothing, like the Sacrificial Engineer (apart from the Head of the one Engineer)

While in Alien Covenant the remains of the Engineers look like Stone Statues, Pompeii like in appearance.

Which is why i Pondered could a SAFETY device had been activated to release a Engineer Blast that Destroyed all Organic Mater within a Radius including the Black Goo, as a means to prevent it from spreading by in effect turning all ORGANIC matter to Solid Crystallized Stone.

Looking at this Video of what the Bombardment was doing, i now think this THEORY i had prior to seeing the movie could actually be plausible because i fail to see from this Scene in the movie when looking at the break down video.... i cant see how this leads to those Engineer Bodies ending up how they was discovered.

This is a good point... one i wonder is why Blomkamp uploaded some more Art from his Project..... because a Reboot of Alien 3 set 30 years after Aliens and to tinker with Blomkamps Idea a little could be seen as a Popcorn/Cash Grab Flick that Disney may indeed feel would have LESS RISK with Potential for more Return.

@Thoughts_Dreams

This idea is also a AFTERMATH route, its on idea i mentioned a while back as far as where can the movie go next.... because the other option would be a  Horrific One set on the Covenant, that would actually act as a Prelude to I Moon Girls idea

The other option would be again a Aftermath as i discussed as another option (one being based on the Covenant, which i had thought out but actually would have been similar to Pandorum movie, i put this idea on here way prior to even hearing of that movie)

But indeed the other option was a aftermath, where we arrive after the Colony is set up, and Hell has broken loose and a few Survivors are Held up, just as a Company Ship Arrives.,.  are they here to SAVE THEM? or have they received Davids Advent Olive Branch and wish to execute a kind of Special Order 937,  I think the only Problem with this is it could have the habit of being a Re-hash of ALIENS.

The idea that i had, was offering something a bit different and looking at RS comments, which was less Xeno, more AI and following the Themes of Prometheus and Alien Covenant... but again this would not be a good idea for those who are not into those kinds of themes or exploring the AI part in depth.

I think I Moon Girls idea as a basis, is interesting.

I think David can be frightening, but i think your point is if he is the Main Focus and a Antagonist, then other Secondary Characters are the Protagonist, if we cant connect with these innocent characters because DAVID'S Role outshines them.. (Problem with AC) then we cant connect or Sympathize with those Characters if they are not portrayed as being the Main Characters.

Which indeed brings me to your comments.. "The problem I think with the prequels is that there is no continuation for the innocent

I hope Daniels and Tennessee don't get shoved out of the way like what happened to Shaw."

Certainly is very true..... with Alien Covenant we can have the next movie build upon Daniels and Tennessee but then the Ending we got does kind of make this difficult...   Compared to if Daniels had NO IDEA that Walter was not Walter but she found out latter after the First Act of the next movie.... but then WE the viewers would know David is Walter from the Start and this could effect/limit what kind of impact this has.. or if done well it could have heightened the impact.

But Daniels knowing who Walter is, really does put them into a Corner as far as where to go NEXT.... how can she survive? The only Logical Route would be that David Toys with her.... and in his Arrogance of his Power and Predicament Daniels is in, he underestimates her and takes his eye off the Ball Allowing her to Escape.

I think the idea you propose as a AFTER-MATH movie so we skip a lot leading up to a event where Daniels and a few Survivors Escape from the Covenant to Oriage-6 could be interesting... if we get a Flash Back of some of the Horrific Events on the Covenant, it could work...  it limits the Characters which maybe helps when trying to build tension etc

It allows a Character from the first movie to continue her journey...

The movie that would SIT BETWEEN Alien Covenant and your idea, would be something risky, it could be a very Alien meets Alien 3 movie a bit like a Pandorum kind of Flick... but could also not pay off and be nothing NEW if such a Movie that sits between AC and your idea was to happen... 

Then this movie...  or the start of yours maybe would benefit from showing us the last moments of escaping the Covenant where maybe Tennessee could be used as a Hero, Sacrificing himself.

Your idea based of the assumption we can maybe take, that the Covenant only has that Lander/Loader that Tennessee used to rescue Daniels etc....   as being the only Drop Ship/Lander the Covenant has... is indeed a Plot Device that would allow them to escape to Origae-6 and in effect Strand David on the Covenant.

David would have to try and LAND the Covenant on Origae-6 and it looks to big and fragile to be able to do that, you get the impression a ship like this is built out in space, piece by piece.

Your idea does leave us with a very very interesting way to have David Return in future or the 3rd act, by virtue of a Company Ship arriving to the Covenant....  which provides David a means to Hijack the Ship, infect some Crew and land it on Origae-6 and i think a scene like this where Daniels is Faced with seeing a Rescue Ship arrive.... only to find David on it and then unleashes Xenomorphs on the Surviving Colonist.

I actually like your idea, because it could kind of mix with some of the ideas i had in mind, where we actually arrive at the Colony years latter... now my idea was a bit complex...

YOURS... much simpler by Virtue of only having a LIMITED number of Survivors.  So we indeed we could have it where your idea begins with a Flash Back, then fast forwards few years where the Survivors have had to START FROM SCRATCH with only a handful of Tools, and so have had to make Wooden Huts etc.

This kind of Plot where we can have a Flash Back to what happened on the Covenant could work well, if this Flash Back is when Daniels is explaining what happened on the Covenant.. to a incoming ship.   The crew of this ship hear her Story, they go back to their ship to contact their other ship thats docking with the Covenant.... but then we have David arrive down with that Ship..

I think this kind of a Plot will introduce the Jeopardy and Terror for Daniels and the Colonist and could very well work...

If we don't complain a lot and make the studio change their minds, we would get what we want. Originally Prometheus was supposed to be a direct prequel to Alien, with humans vs xenomorphs vs engineers, but the studio came in and wanted to dial away from alien and focus more on the engineers. The fan base was divided and each has its own expectations. 

Prometheus 2 was supposed to focus more on engineers, but because of the mixed fan reaction of Prometheus, and a lot of people compared the film with Jon Spaiht's version of the script and said how much it would have been a better film if they went with that script, this I think (and that alien 5 hype) caused the studio and Ridley to realize people wanted an alien film with xenomorphs.

Ridley said if I remember correctly, that the AC sequel will be the war of the worlds type of thing. Which I think would be humans vs xenomorphs vs engineers. David unleashing his final creation and Engineers unleashing their 10+ foot genetically engineered versions of themselves into action (SJ size).

This I can sorta imagine like from a CGI movie Resident evil damnation, a battle between humans, lickers, and tyrants.

Xenomorphs=Lickers.

Engineers=Tyrants

VIDEO (Tyrant vs Lickers and humans) :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MzsYTxX2IQ&feature=youtu.be

I think in the broad sense...

It is indeed showing us that a Hubris to those Planet 4 Engineers is to stay and live simple lives like they are shown....

*Do-Not: try and Genetically Evolve oneself, and incorporate Genetic Enhancements or Bio-Mechanics.

*Do-Not: attempt to Sub-create other Intelligent Life-forms.

*Do-Not: attempt to teach other encountered or created Life-forms all the knowledge and secrets of your race (or even severely limit this knowledge).

We can see these Rules should have been applied to Mankind from our point of view, because if we attempt any of these and are successful then indeed you could face a similar scenario to what may have faced the Engineers.

*Creating a Synthetic in David who is superior to us in almost every way, that has Free-will and Emotions certainly could lead to a Rebellion to replace Mankind as we have seen explored in many a movie from Terminator, Matrix and I-Robot and others.

*Genetically Creating Super-Humans or Genetically Enhanced versions with little or no flaws, could lead to these beings determining they are more superior to regular Humans and then even see that there is no need for our Original Species.

Both TWO very possible Future Scenarios if we Evolve Genetics and Science to far without any bearing on the implications.

We even see a similar theme in Biblical Creation (other Creation Mythos too)....   Where in Hubris to GOD, creating Lucifer as Perfect and allowing him maybe that little more Free-Will (David) than the other Angels (Walter) proved to be a massive mistake by GOD.  You can surely see a connecting theme with David and Lucifer 

Ridley Scott had referred to the Engineers as Fallen Angels, he also hinted they are not GODS.... so with the Planet 4 Original Engineers comment it can get us to start to ponder if the Fallen Angels Moniker applies... if it applies to all Engineers or NOW just those Prometheus looking ones..

I think we also see the Engineers are/were very Naive  and Arrogant... if we look at Prometheus that is.... we can see its almost like when they decided to abandon us, they surely must have felt that without their help in Evolving us Genetically, Technologically and Culturally we would have been no more than CAVE-MEN so i feel another Hubris of their Species was to ASSUME without their interaction, that Mankind WOULD-NEVER evolve past the Level of Technology that we was at Thousands of Years ago by OURSELVES

This i feel is ONE reason why the Engineer in Prometheus kind of looked on to David with some Pity and Curiosity...   But the other reason for this reaction could also be INDEED that the Engineer was to his Hierarchy/Creators as David is to us.  I am kind of more inclined to this kind of thinking...

So the Engineer had to destroy David, because he realizes the Threat that him, and indeed Mankind Posses to HIM (Engineer) or indeed all Engineers, especially if this Engineer knows that his kind/faction had rebelled against the Original Engineers etc.

I do feel if RS is going to show us 3-4 Players incoming in the next movie... then the 3rd/4th Players i feel must be similar... so its either like TWO Human Factions... one maybe having NO knowledge of what to expect, the other with Full Knowledge of what to expect.

But then that 3rd/4th Party could also be our LV-223 Type Engineers and Planet 4 type.

"The species that discovers fire later on, I think would also make similar mistakes along the way with its technology and so history repeats itself"

Reading the whole of your post, i think some elements certainly are possible, we could be seeing  a re-occurring theme.  Certainly at the broad strokes this seems it could be the case.... as we are shown a Tale of Creation, Sub-Creation, Rebellion and Repeat.

It could play out as you mentioned Batchpool and the Engineers had seen something like this prior and wanted to intervene with Humanity to Prevent it happening again...  The whole options are varied but i think a pattern is their broadly.

The LV-223 Engineers could be the DAVID of the Planet 4 Engineers, why who knows if the LV-223 Outbreak was caused by Planet 4 Engineers wishing to Sabotage and Eradicate those LV-223 Engineers?

I am not so sure on this, because it kind of contradicts how i view the Planet 4 Engineers as far as how they would Welcome the Juggernaught if they know about LV-223 the Black Goo and Experiments and more so a Sub-Creation/Evolved Group of Rogue Engineers...  But then a part of me can surely see these Engineers in Prometheus as ones who have Evolved themselves to that level.

Maybe the Hubris of doing so came at a cost, and so the Planet 4 Engineers turned their backs on the Genetic Experiments/Evolution attempts due to the Problems encountered in the past....  this seems plausible.. but again kind of conflicts with how they would welcome a ship that would be connected to a Past that had known to be  a great Hubris for their kind... even if they are not aware of the Xenomorph/Black Goo Variety.... but i think if they lacked knowledge of this,  and the LV-223 Engineers were a Project and Faction of beings who Evolved themselves to incorporate the Bio-Mechanical Atheistic, would this not be a positive trait?   But then why not JOIN this Evolutionary Path?   Why Shun it?

If they knew of the Hubris in maybe messing about with Bio-Mechanical Enhancements leads to some Mutations that lead to something like what they experimented on LV-223 with.... would those Planet 4 Engineers not be weary of the incoming ship?

Maybe the Bio-Mechanical Engineers are Engineered like this as Super Soldiers, so maybe they are in effect the Engineers versions of Clone Troopers, or Universal Soldiers where they are created for certain tasks.... but what are these tasks, and if the Planet 4 Engineer are aware of this purpose, if it in anyway links to Black Goo as far as anything related to Xenomorph Organisms... then again why would those Planet 4 Engineers seem so welcoming and have no concerns for the Danger.

So there is a lot to ponder really...

Unless the Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic/suits is something they are aware of and these beings maybe had to Genetically Alter themselves to be like the LV-223 Engineers but these Enchantments started to produce negative effects as far as the impact Mentally on those beings.   So they turned there backs on this Technology...

But then again this Technology to a degree is still evident on Planet 4, but we dont know if those Planet 4 Engineers could just as easily use those Ships and suits without actually having to be Bio-Engineered like the LV-223 Engineers...  If David and Dr Shaw could travel with one of their ships.... then there is no Reason why the Planet 4 Engineers could not use them too..

So you dont have to be a Bio-Mechanical Suited LV-223 Engineer to use the Technology... maybe?

I am left wondering out of all this, as to whether David creates Engineers. If a species of humanoid discovered fire well in advance before another then maybe it makes sense that the technology that then evolves would hit some problems along the way. The species that discovers fire later on, I think would also make similar mistakes along the way with its technology and so history repeats itself. But what if one species becomes so advanced that it creates an AI (manufactures life) that seeks to destroy it. If having rectified the problem, by whatever means , that species then discovers another species that is evolving along the same path and sees that it too is going to evolve its technology to create an AI, then there is a choice to be made. Do you let that species evolve and see what happens or do you destroy it, before it creates an AI that can destroy both species?

We know David has worked out how to create a xenomorph, something that according to the mural in Prometheus, the Engineers already have prior knowledge of. In order to gain that knowledge David wiped out the Engineers on Planet 4, but what if the Engineers knew that if humans ever developed technology to a certain level that the outcome could be David, and so wanted to destroy humans 2000 years ago to prevent human technology evolving. They basically did not want humans repeating their mistakes.

Given that David now has a ship full of colonists at his disposal, could it be possible that he might want to evolve his experiments into creating something that the Engineers fear could be highly destructive, and part of this may be creating Engineers from the human colonists. Perhaps the Engineers as we currently know them try to put an end to Davids work, but a juggernaut full of eggs makes for an escape and end up crashing on some planetoid/moon somewhere ( not LV426). Just to complicate things a little further, but what if something like this has all happened before, only last time a ship ended up crashing on LV426.

I actually feel this is Pretty much what we could be shown....

Ridley Scott is Fascinated with AI and he said the next movie would be about AI and people thought, ok so its another DAVID movie only much more about him....  But RS mentioned that Batty and Racheal were AI

AI DOES NOT = Machine...

AI simply refers to a Artificially (not Naturally Occurring/Created)  Life-forms, (or also Intelligence) this does not have to be just Synthetics.... and so ENGINEERING a Embryo to modify its Genomes in a Attempt to make the Perfect Human Specimen Grown in  a LAB would contribute to being a AI

The ELDER Scene in Prometheus was removed, because RS did not want to MEET God in the first movie, so this means the LV-223 Engineers and Sacrificial Engineers were not GOD's they must therefore had served a Hierarchy or been a Sub-Creation to some other Race.

RS said David and Dr Shaw would meet some beings on Paradise, who are not GOD's in the Traditional Sense.   When we get to Alien Covenant the Engineers her look DIFFERENT the Hall of Heads look like the Elders from Prometheus, RS says they are the Apostles, Wise Men and Superior beings but to whom?

RS then makes a Fascinating Claim..  those Planet 4 Engineers are the ORIGINALS now this is interesting, and while Prometheus we had the ELDERS we need to remember this scene is NOT part of the Movie and so we maybe cant ACCEPT this is how the Elders Look.... 

Thus... the Elders could look similar but not have the Pale/Marble like Skin and Dark Eyes of the Prometheus Engineers, they could instead be Older Frail looking versions of the PLANET 4 Engineers.

Prometheus we only saw a Lone Pale Engineer, and then more of the same in those Bio-Mechanical Suits...  if THESE guys are not the Originals.

Then it stands to Reason they could be Genetically Modified Engineers/Creations...  Thus in effect they could be to the PLANET 4 Engineers as REPLICANTS are to Mankind.

Maybe there was a Rebellion, and these Organic Engineered Engineers, then started to experiment and Evolve themselves so that they incorporated the Bio-Mechanics with themselves?

There is so many ways the Differences could be explored, but i do think that the Prometheus Engineers could be those Planet 4 Engineers versions of DAVID only just Biological.

The Source i had from Feb 2015 did say that those Engineers had more in common with DAVID than us. But they also said the Engineer Race is connected Genetically to Mankind and that Current Mankind are the 4th/5th Generation of Mankind, and Biblical Events had happened but not to our Generation, and also implied that Paradise was kind of literal to the Biblical Account, but NOT on Earth as the Biblical Account.

This all seems to make sense to what AC had shown us.

Maybe just maybe....

In a alternative story.... and to explain those Dead Engineers, maybe Davids Decapitated Head Acted like the Head of Medusa? Turned those Engineers to Stone lol

Ha ha love that image ATI

Indeed I Moon Girl

I think Dr Shaw however has NOTHING left, only her Faith, she may still hold on to if there is a AFTERLIFE, she would want to know WHY we was created, WHY the Engineers visited us and left those MAPS and then WHY they wanted to Destroy us.

I think if David said... look they are not nice people... let me DESTROY them and then i can try and find your answers from their City.... Dr Shaw would be NO... i want Face to Face Answers.

I think David had a different Agenda, while Dr Shaw would be willing to FACE Death as long as she had a chance to get the answers, i feel David is now Free, he thinks of himself as a Sentient Life Form and he wants to LIVE.

So those Questions are interesting, and we debated this a lot in-between Prometheus in 2012 and Alien Covenant in 2017.  And a lot depends on a few things.

*How Aggressive/Malevolent a Species the Engineers are

*How much these Engineers knew about Mankind, our Creation and intended Destruction.

*How much they knew about the Star Maps, and what LV-223 was or had became.

*How many Engineers are alive and well on their home world.

Depending on these answers would affect how those Engineers would take to seeing Dr Shaw and David.

I think the Scene belonged, but not in the way that it did due to the circumstances so i totally agree IMoon Girl

In hindsight.....  here is what should have been done...

The movie needed a Extra 30 min.....

We needed the Oram Face Hugger Scene, and then we needed to see Lope/Cole go in search of Oram, at a different point but encounter a loose Face Hugger that gets to Lope but is freed up, as per movie and they blast the Thing and we see Acid Spray...

They should not have maybe discovered the Egg Room (Cole) what we needed then to see is the OTHER Neomorph (i know it appeared to had been hit/killed) but have this Neomorph turn up and chase the crew from the Cathedral,  just before this though we need the David vs Walter Scene, and then show us Walter carrying Orams body,  and Cole/Lope helping....

They get to the lander, and either the Neomorph catches up but then i guess it needed to kill Cole to keep it busy, or have Cole and Lope encounter a Face Hugger and deal with it, then come across Oram and Walter (David) then have the Neomorph attack the Lander.

Basically REPLACE Xenomorph with NEOMORPH..

This then allows for Walter, Daniels, Lope and maybe Cole (depend if he gets killed by Neomorph earlier or during the escape)...  But this allows for the Crew to make it to the COVENANT with Oram unconscious

Have Walter suggest he suffered a head injury when trying to escape a Face Hugger, he could say that he was with Oram and never witnessed no infection and that if Oram was infected like Ledrood and Hallet we would known about it... 

So Walter then places Oram in Quarantine and Preps him for Cyro-sleep in the Med Lab...

The Crew then spend 12 hours or so, settling down after the events of Covenant,  before we then allow for Oram to be Chest Busted on the Ship,   then unknown to the Crew a Xenomorph is on the loose...

This would give more time and meaning to the Shower Attack, and also allow more time for Cat/Mouse with the Xenomorph and show Lope being another Xenomorph Victim.....

ONE Xenomorph that only arrives on the Covenant, would have made the Xenomorph scenes less rushed and not against established LAW (Gestation/Growth)

Hello K-Theory
A nice topic to think about, congratulations.
the idea of a synthetic biomechanical engineer is a fascinating idea, there is too much perfection in being seen in prometheus unlike civilians on paradise seen in AC.
my thinking about this, however, is a little different, I think the engineers of LV-223 are soldiers who have taken on some kind of concoction similar to the black go, which instead of mutating them has improved, the comparison between the worm and the snake mutated of prometheus, we remember a fundamental ingredient of the biomechanical suit, fused with the body.
the synthetic idea should be deepened because the engineers on LV-223 died from the contamination of the Black go Virus unlike David who even touches it with the index.

"Au Revoir Shoshanna"

I Moon Girl I thought the shower scene was out of place too for similar reasons. It wasn't a bad scene for what it is though.

I do wonder too what Shaw had in mind when she would arrive at the Engineer home world.  She might threaten to drop the urn load unless the Engineers send some form of way to communicate with her.  Still, I'm sure the Engineers would eventually find a way to take her down.  Yet, the Engineers got to be careful since that juggernaut she is on is loaded with tons of urns filled with the black goo.  If she held the Engineers at "gunpoint" to force communication, she would still have a hard time flying away from them in the massive expansiveness of space. 

K-Theory said,"If humans and "Engineers" are 99% the same genetically, would we not progress the same technologically? "

I agree with this at first glance, yet I think I can explain why not.

From my past knowledge, I think most historians theorize the invention of fire as being started by lightening.  This eventually would be obtained and kept burning by some species.  I believe fire is considered to be one of the most useful technologies to mankind since it shaped the way we eat, what we eat, where we could live, how we fight, how we see, how we relax, how we communicate, etc.

I think it is believed that fire was a random technological invention to mankind that mankind eventually learned to use which led to a whole new way of living.

Now, let's say we have two similar species living on different planets.  The one that receives fire first is the one that should, technically, become more dominant and eventually invent more things from fire.  Maybe the Engineers just received fire first and were allowed to grow sooner.

Plus, the Engineers could have evolved into humanoids 1 million years before creatures came out of the oceans.  Maybe the Engineer planet was more acceptable for life before Earth?

With your point regarding if Engineers are synthetic... Sure, it could be possible.  Or maybe they're half humanoid, half synthetic.  We really don't know much about the Engineers, so it is hard to say what they are.  Maybe they come from another dimension?  If that's the case, we could really be lost in understanding them.

IRaptus

I didn't like Upworth as a character.  Ricks was okay, yet I barely saw him on the screen.

I'm not saying they deserve to die, but I really don't agree with how they acted on the Covenant throughout the movie.  My complaint is really aimed at Upworth.  I'm not saying they were written badly.  I just didn't like the characters and I'm not complaining that they are dead.

I mean, they loose almost all of the crew and they go into the shower to get it on.  Disgusting... I don't see how death of friends leads to horniness?  I can come up with possible answers on why. Sure.  We all can.  Still, I don't think they were good people.

That shower scene shouldn't have been in the movie.  Like I said above though, I disliked Upworth throughout the movie.  She just seemed... ionno... kind of immature? self-important? unsympathetic? unempathetic? ionno...

I just didn't like how she said the things she said.  I'll be watching Alien: Covenant again in the coming weeks, so maybe my opinion on the character will change.  It's happened before in other movies that I watched again, so who knows?

Thoughts_Dreams I was looking for photos for another topic and found this one along the way (though I dont know where it originally came from).

We didn't get much chance to care for many of the characters in AC but this one makes you feel sad for Ricks & Upworth. Poor bastards had no idea what was on the ship with them

The problem I think with the prequels is that there is no continuation for the innocent.  Alien left us with Ripley's journey continuing in Aliens, which, I think naturally created ideas for the writers of the script.  In Aliens, we don't have an innocent Ripley anymore because of what she experienced in Aliens.  Instead, we get someone who is showing their perseverance, emotional strength, and, especially, their paranoia.  I mean, in Aliens I'm left thinking that Ripley is being a bit paranoid with Burke (even though he is scum).  Plus, with Ripley's limited experience with the Xeno, we still get a somewhat 'guru' like leader of the pack.  This leads the script to be more fast pace then the original.  So, we naturally get more action.  I feel Aliens was a good sequel to Alien.  It was different and original.

Then, in Alien 3, we get another Ripley movie in the 'pit of hell' for a woman so to speak.  On top of that, we get a loose Xeno on the loose.  Ripley kills herself to save the world from the Xeno.  She may have also killed herself to just end the tragedy that plagues her life.  We're left with the end of an epic journey with Ripley.

In A:R, Ripley comes back as a clone.  So, now we get our familiar Ripley, yet with a very interesting twist.  Splendid idea in my opinion!

Now, to the prequels.  We get the lovely, and completely innocent and gullible Shaw character developed appropriately in Prometheus, only to basically disappear from the franchise.  They obvious can't cut Shaw out completely because she was a very important character in Prometheus, but they came close.

In A:C, we get Oram's innocence and almost completely gullible mindset like Shaw's, yet he's a bit wizened from his past experiences.  Well, he get's killed off.  Now, we're left with Daniels, who is serious and follows the rules.  She may have been innocent in the beginning of the movie, yet her personality just isn't as pliable for future movies.  Her personality is to fit for tragic events.  Ripley really shows in deep empathy throughout the franchise.  

The big 180 we got from Prometheus to A:C really killed of a great character like Shaw.  I think we should've gotten a more religious point of view from Shaw AND NOT ORAM as we have gotten.  It's not that I don't like Oram's point of view, but the character of Oram could've been better if we got to see it from Shaw's perspective instead of Oram's.  The reason is because we already went through one movie with Shaw, so a second one with her can make things more fast past and interesting since the personality of the character and their nuances are out of the way.  

With Oram, the character is developed quickly to fill in the religious gap we were lacking in A:C so that he could be killed off.  Shaw's character would have been good if she died in the sequel of Prometheus.  I'm fine with ending a religious character in movie 2 of 3.

I love how A:C was completely different than Prometheus, but I don't like how Shaw was just pushed out of the way.  I do hope that Alien: Awakening with be a completely new story like we got with A:C, yet I hope Daniels and Tennessee don't get shoved out of the way like what happened to Shaw.

So, to bring terror to the next Alien movie AND to be something different than a Xeno stalking people is the question.  I think Prometheus answered that question and A:C didn't even come close.  I think we need another Prometheus.  By that, I mean everybody needs to be innocent and ignorant to what real fear is and needs to be discovering something brand new. 

This is how Alien was and this is how Prometheus was.  Yet, Alien: Awakening needs to be different than both.  Ridley succeeded with flying colors with the idea of what Prometheus was based on.

Just to throw out an example... Daniels and Tennesse are on Origae-6, yet there is nobody with them.  It is just Daniels and Tennesse.  They are exploring Origae-6 all by themselves.  They are alone.  They survived.  They managed to take what they could from the Covenant and actually made it to Origae-6.  They almost died.  The Covenant was in complete mutiny.  The horrors on that ship seemed almost impossible to stop.  Yet, Daniels and Tennesse somehow outsmarted the travesty.  Somehow.  After they were able to get away from the Covenant, they decided to continue to Origae-6.  What else were they supposed to do?  It's what they trained for.  Yet, they also trained to have more supplies and thousands of colonists to take care of.  Still, what else were they supposed to do?  They were almost to Origae-6 when the chaos began and with no sleeping pods available after separating the Covenant, they couldn't have made a trip back.  Plus, there was obviously not enough fuel for the trip anyways.  What else were they supposed to do?  Now they are stranded... Discovering Origae-6 all alone with limited amounts of the same technology that was bringing the Earth they left to a decaying rubble and sickness.  Maybe this is a good thing Tennessee decides.  Yet, Daniels knows that without technology, they were basically unprepared to survive.

Still, this isn't the end of the story because the Engineers know of what happened to Planet 4 and they are looking for answers.  The Engineers, for the first time, are scared of the humans.  Not in a way they have been before because this time, the humans might win the fight.  So, when the Engineers trace the Covenant to Origae-6, they tip-toe their way there and descend to the planet in discrete fashion.  So, Daniels and Tennessee slowly intermingle with the Engineer's discrete exploration of the humans that are on Origae-6.  Basically, the Engineers and the survivors of the Covenant are both exploring each other very slowly.  Daniels and Tennessee are discovering for the first time that humans aren't alone in the universe and they are learning of the Engineers. 

I'm not going to go on to how they explore each others capabilities and this is just an example.  Still, how they explore each other would set the terror and would probably be about half of the movie. 

This way, we keep characters that were developed, yet we get something completely different.  We also get to learn new things about the Engineers (this is much needed!).  This also follows a similar story like Alien and Prometheus (which are the same in their main idea that both stories were based on).

I feel that terror should be incorporated in simple, yet creative ways to really scare people.  It all comes down to how the story is told.  Things that people take for granted need to be flipped around on the audience and turned into something scary.  Something as simple as walking down a corridor in a ship should be scary.  Something as common as giving birth should be turned into something scary (giving birth is already scary enough too!).  Something as simple as touching something so intriguing, yet foreign, needs to be turned into something scary.  This is how the classic horror movies did it, and this needs to be brought back.  Alien did it.  Prometheus did it.  Alien: Awakening NEEDS to do it.

Terror can be brought into a film, not as filler, but because the movies purpose was to create fear.  The story can movie slower to make these simple and common things scary.  Maybe Ridley needs to try and slow down the script and allow time to really create something scary instead of filling our minds with what David thinks.

I hope Ridley surprises us with something completely fresh and original WITHOUT David.  I think he can do it too.  I have nothing against David, but how can a movie be scary when the main character is the villian?  Of course, I'm sure something can be worked out.  Yet, traditionally, a movie is scary when the main character is NOT the villian.  Our only continued character from the prequels is David, which he is interesting.  Yet, I could never be scared for David.  I don't see how any event happening to David could cause me to feel fear.  

Welcome MS and congratulations on your first topic.

I do understand your point regarding the zombie movie comparison. Many have put Aliens in a class by itself because it was so different from the other Alien movies and it was a slow burn then full blown continuous action/horror film that could stand alone. They, in my opinion, have a point.  

I'm not a big fan of James Cameron personally but I recognize he has made great fiction films.

So, I say, throw all resources behind Ridley Scott and let him develop a broad-based DNA (prequels) for future directors to have more story capital to build on for continuity. I thought Ridley Scott was wonderful with Alien: Covenant so it is a slanted opinion on my part (he should have included David's notes somewhere in the film though). 

Long live Ridley Scott.

I can say that there are things Cameron did in Aliens that I did like a lot.

It starts and ends with Bishop's part in the story and I did like the Colonial Marines. Apone was great with "it's time to die" and Ripley taking over Gorman's duties when he collapsed emotionally was also a good part of the scene after Gorman had a smug look on his face telling Apone to "saddle up". Who doesn't like Hudson and Hicks?

Bishop taking the gun from Vasquez and handing over the gun to Ripley before crawling in the pipe was great directing. Lance Henriksen did so well in Aliens and Alien 3.

While I am definitely not on the same page as Carter Burke politically, that didn't affect my opinion of the film. 

I haven't read about James Cameron's NRA quotes in Avatar above nor am I aware of the "redblooded redneck NRA supporters" love for Aliens daliens. A director's view of a potential political affiliation of exoplanet miners didn't bother me too much.

I wanted to see redblooded Carter Burke's internals painted all over the walls after he released the facehuggers on the sleeping women and it was nice to see him cornered and greeted by a great set of gnashing teeth.

Me too ali81.

Big Dave

Yeah gore alone will not make it, you got to care about the characters that the bad things happen to. This is what they failed with in AC because we knew almost nothing about the characters so they got to make that part better.

DK

There is a difference between if it is real or if it is in a movie. When it is really it is closer to you so then I get feel sick from seeing that since it is real and could happen.

It gets repetitive if it is over-used that is why they got to use it sparingly.

BD

They do not need as much foul language as in Aliens though although I like it. ;) The only problem is when you swear too much then it looses its effect and you sound stupid instead.

It should at least be a 15 years age limit to it, otherwise I am afraid that we will get a kid friendly movie which in the case of the Alien franchise would be a terrible joke. Sure you can lower the age limit to the franchise but then I think that it would make it lose some of its integrity, that would be a shame. Money versus integrity is what it seems to be about in this case.

Yeah, I would consider it too kiddy friendly so I would probably loose interest in it but then that is already happening with the David-centricity.

One could also think about this: how would it be remembered later on in history? Alien 1 to 3 have a place for some although alien 3 less so do they want a fast cash grab or something that stands the test of time.

I have seen that sentence before but I agree that it would be better if they did so David did not create the first Xeno. Unfortunately they might follow the extremely disappointing idea that Daviod created the first one though, but that would not surprise me. With all the disappointing things in the prequels it would not surprise me if they stick to that, *sigh*.

S.M: Yeah I remember that interview, it is interesting to listen to.

Big Dave: No offense taken, it is all good.

I think that it is all fine that people prefer different things. It would be boring if everyone pointed at something and said that's it. Some podcasts complain about a lack of a united fanbase but I think that it is to an extent is a good thing because it opens up for discussions.

There is definitely more to the franchise than Ripley and eggs. I am not against all new ideas it is just that they got to be somewhat consistent and have good human characters.

Sure they could explore the company a bit more, that could be interesting. They tried a bit with Weyland but unfortunately he was not portrayed very well. I am not very interested in the AI thing, it should focus more on the humans, the company, science, and human greed. One could say that a theme could be when is science good and bad? What is the point of finding new thing, and so on.

Creation could be an interesting thing it is just that they have focused too much on androids at the expense of the human characters but I kind of understand the theme. Unfortunately there is no balance the way it is now.

Maybe it was an emotional thing that he decided to let David be the creator of the Xeno but that shows that it is bad to act on emotions.

There are many things that they can explore, that is fine but they got to keep interesting characters that we care for. Keeping Ripley outside the prequels have been fine to me, they should continue with that I think. I can understand that many feel that Ripley is a central part of it, but I disagree. She could be replaced with another character and it could work just fine.

If they shall let the Xeno be a bio-weapon then they got to make the creators of this as an interesting thing. This is where the idea of David would not hold. Having the Engineers more involved in it would be interesting since that would be less linked to humans I believe. Sure I kind of understand why someone would like David to be the creator of it and it sounds fine on paper but in reality it is a disappointment I think.

Some ideas: Maybe explore the company a bit more and let them have interesting characters. They might not be nice but they need to be well-developed as characters so they are interesting. I would like to see more about the Engineers and their society, agenda, and their connection to the goo and the Xeno. Get a writer that is good at writing characters. Keep the humans in front and David a bit in the background, the human adventure is what counts.

Nah, David is not boring it is just that he is featured too much in the movie so everything else becomes secondary. I got to say that he was better in Prometheus compared to Covenant, he was more gray in Prometheus which was more interesting.

There got to be some tension for it to work and also good written characters. Right now the character part does not work so the movies suffer because of that. I agree with Big Dave that we have not had that since Alien 3.

First you got to develop the characters and then throw them into situations that they are well prepared to handle. Alien 1 to 3 got this right, the rest did not. I guess that the number of characters could be reduced like DK said. If they will have a colony in the next movie they could show us some of what goes on on the colony like they did with Aliens and then they get there after the disaster so we cold try to imagine what happened. Also if there are survivors from that then they got to make the characters feel like real people, that is tricky because they have failed with that part in the prequels this far.

id love to see what Del Torro would do with the prequels

say what u will about cgi, but a guy in a rubber suit almost 40 years ago is still the best looking and scariest beast in the history of the franchise

dark nebula

brilliant topic. nice n original. I love the sources u use. fire and stone was awesome and portrays the engineers exactly the way I believe they should be. strong badass beings who take no shit and are a match for anything even hand to hand including the xeno. RS himself even stated the engineers are an evil highly aggressive species yet they look like pussies ur granny could beat up. iv got the hard back fire and stone book and I couldn't put it down. some movie directors could learn a thing or 2 from the people involved in putting it together.

and river of pain. WAW. best alien book iv ever read. love the whole trilogy but the scene u mention, inside the derelict when newts mum and dad go in had my imagination spinning out of control asking what happened? I so want to see something like that on the big screen. an engineer juggernaught becomes infested and the engineers have to deal with them sounds awesome to me. if we don't get a straight up engineers v xenomorph scene done properly by the end of the prequels, someone take Ridley out into the woods and put him down as u would an old dog. put him and the rest of us out our misery.   

'walter has no penis' hahahaha they really need to hurry up and get the next movie done

on the topic of what can be considered canon. I don't think anything has actually been spelt out in enough detail yet for anything to be considered canon yet and by the looks of things, there will be some lengthy debates about what is and what isn't long after the prequels are done. as for the other material such as ADF's novel, I don't consider it in any way canon as it differs to much from the movie and im talking on screen and not extras in the blu ray. im actually amazed Fox allowed it to be released