Comments (Page 379)

AC had no suspense. in alien, u had the sense the beast could be anywhere as it was using the air shifts to move around, same with aliens, those buggers could be anywhere. without suspense theres no terror. no fear of whats round the corner. the neomorph climbs the outer wall then is just there behind someone.no sense of it hunting silently. its not like its not possible to scare people these days. RS said he wanted to scare the fuck out of us. well im still waiting. I posted a thread on a short film on youtube called alien infestation. brought me back to the original and that fear and dread and that was some amateur in a basement. as the original proved, u don't need gore. u don't need to see anything of what happens to the victim. but u need the director to paint a picture an burn it into ur mind and Ridley failed horribly in AC imo

IRaptus Those gifs look really good but the adult neomorph wasn't nearly as good and I just didn't care for its overall look. I agree that the really good visuals were too brief to be able to take it all in. 

Perhaps again we come back to context. Alien: Isolation showed the Xenomorph is still scary AF. Some of the newer novels are full of good suspense, "Out of the Shadows" in Particular. Sea of sorrows and River of pain not so much.

My thought is perhaps it is because they keep giving the Xenomorph a motive and agenda. Alien was scary because

a. we didn't know what the hell this thing was; or was capable of

b. what was it doing, and what would it do next

The first point is established, we know what it is and how it works, that we cant change (too much).

Alien Covenant, AVP and AVPR all made the xenomorph an aggressive killer - a hunter we can understand. It will chase you down and kill you.

The original concept with the Big Chap was that after it was born and matured, it captured Brett and Dallas as propagators/hosts for the next generation, emotionlessly removed the remaining threats, then was to curl up and die - its role complete. That is a weird concept to us because we dont live that way. Throw in eggmorphing and you have a creepy and eerie premise. 

I think we can all agree that the third act in Covenant was a total let down because it was way too fast and rushed. We know the typical Xenomorph life-cycle has a series of steps that need to occur over a period time under certain conditions. It is however a sequence we all know too well and the temptation is to brush over it like Covenant, AVP and AVPR did - to not bore the audience and save on run-time. But the fear is in the drama surrounding those steps, it is an inevitable conclusion and catalytic event that has to happen.

Much like Godzilla, and Kong for that matter.

Slow it down, build the suspense, remove the obvious hunter-killer agenda and add some relatable characters and the beast can still be feared.

Sorry, I needed a good rant. Now, back to the shadows...

I admit I LOL'd at that Godzilla meme haha

I think the thing is, the xenomorph isn't that scary nowadays. When it first came out it terrified the audiences. Today, everyone knows how the xenomorph looks like. Neomorph is terrifying than the Xeno in my opinion.
While making the first Alien film Ridley felt that they could never shake off the problem that faced many horror films prior due to the limits of the technology at the time. And that was "the man in a rubber suit" issue. That's why they shot the alien in dark/shadow and barely gave the audience the clear shot of it.
Obviously, there are lots of great scenes with the big chap, to me, there are some that just make me think "Yep, that's a guy in a suit who can barely see shit where he's walking". 

Alien vs predator requiem tried the same thing by showing the creatures in shadows and dark areas, but that only got the fans complaining that they couldn't see shit.
Same thing with Jaws. While making of it Steven Spielberg thought that the shark prop looked silly and not real enough so he didn't want to show it too much, and that gave the film tension (especially that score). But we all know how the sharks look like.

David made the Xenomorph, he did not create it; much in the same way, as I can bake a Victoria Sponge, but that doesn't credit me as its creator.

Gavin well said and tasty :P

Dark Nebula you bring up a really great point! 

I remember awhile back we were sharing and comparing Alien Covenant gifs on various threads, and it was amazing the detail in some of the scenes that unless you watch the film in slow-mo you never get more than a split second to fully appreciate.

Is that a time-constraint run-time thing, being cheap on the cgi by having hi-res renders but only over a second or two. Or does it come back to FOX trying to jam as much as possible into the film to appease as wide an audience as possible forcing Ridley to compromise on quality scenes?

Credit where Credit is due, there are stunning cgi scenes in Covenant. There is just no time on screen to appreciate it.

But my point is, The xenomorph and adult Neomorph never looked real 

All fear is lost in the film because they are obvious cgi construct and it allows you to take a step back from fearing it, because it is fake. The Pale man, Big Chap and the Xeno's from Aliens looked real which made them all the more frightening, because it could be a real thing.

Alien 3 is good example. Where a real costume/animatronic puppet was used the Runner looked friggin real and scary. Those were the best scenes in Alien 3. Where cgi was used for the runner there was little fear factor because (especially due to the poor cgi) it didn't look like it belonged in the scene.

It broke the illusion of reality  

@ Yog Sothoth,

I think we can all agree that the planet 4 wasp you mentioned was either a reference or inspired by the parasitoid wasp that inspired the Xenomorph back when Dan O'Bannon was penning the script on Ronald Shussett's sofa.

However, there is a slight issue with advents expansion of Alien: Covenants addition to the Alien mythology. The two known forms of propagation, which are egg-laying and egg-morphing, result in the production of a singular parasitic egg delivery system - the Facehugger, which implants a single (multiple according to Alien 3's theatrical cut) Xenomorph embryo into a hosts throat. The Spore-Sacs, as you mentioned eject a swarm of minute parasitic insects that burrow into a single host, rather than one host per insect, which would be much more efficient. Also, it would seem that this swarm gathers into a singular organism, Voltron style within the host before bursting, which needless to say has a barrage of problems such as efficiency, established canon and most importantly, how can a swarm of presumably already mature creatures transform into a singular larval organism?

I thought the adult Neomorph looked fine. Its just those beasts are agile and move too fast.

They did use props and actors in suits on set because Ridley wanted the actors to interact with something and not to scream and run away from nothing. AC's practical effects were pretty good for the most part.

I already uploaded some AC props on this topic here.

As BigDave said, it depends on Budget and who is making the effects.

Lots of expensive Marvel MCU movies have great CGI effects incorporated, but in Black Panther (Budget $200 million), there are lots of cringe-worthy ones.

Just take a look at this fight scene

https://youtu.be/BoEki8x8ujE?t=15

Alien 3. Hoping to see an ultramorph or adult deacon but I don't think I will. 

I hate CGI with a passion. 

For AC, maybe the team said things would be fixed but they ran out of time/funds? IDK how much of their budget was allocated for CGI.

dk I choose to believe this is the case!

From the articles and comments we have seen and heard from the various artist that worked on Covenant (Hallett, Hailstone etc) all seemed, passionate, hungry and truly invested in both the Alien Franchise and working with Ridley Scott.

Agreed! Those are intense Neomorph design.

This fan art is fantastic for sure, but things should progress toward the mix of biological with mechanical so we can see a tie in with Alien- the work might be out there for all I know.

I actually find the pics BigDave posted to be better than the neomorph.

"And why did David need the dna of that wasp which lays eggs in other living things to make is variant if the original creature is parasitic in nature"

Since when, in the Alien: Covenant movie or novel, does David say he used a "wasp" to make the Xenomorph "parasitic"? You simply have not watched the movie properly or read any of the original script. Those "wasps" we see, under David's microscope are actually micro insects which come from those fungal pods or "eggs" as David calls them. They are the parasitic stage of the NEOMORPH. Those groups of "spores" we see going in people's ears to cause infection, are groups of these tiny tiny insects. They burrow their way into the skin and cause the host to birth a Neomorph. The Covenant script and the novel make this very clear, as well as certain artwork from David's lab. The fungal spores = those tiny wasp things. Nothing to so with the Xenomorph.

See here for more info on this -> https://www.alien-covenant.com/topic/46223

The first born child scenario sounds like it could really build terror with an unsuspecting populace who realizes what's up too late. Their god is revealed as their devil. Nice on different levels!

After watching the 46 & 2 clip I went and re-watched Pan's Labyrinth (happened to be on Netflix!) and now have a much greater respect and admiration for that scene. Maybe its the music but The Pale Man is such a menacing and damn creepy baddy..

Agreed dk. The juvenile Neo looks great, but by the time its gets to the adult form (Rosenthal and Oram scenes) it just looks bland, half-arsed and not menacing at all.

Pixellated teeth really kill the mood lol 

Kudos Del Toro!

1. Alien 3 Dog Xenomorph

For the others, there are so many examples I can't decide on just one.

It's ok to hate on the adult neomorph- I didn't like it at all. The idea was good but the execution was meh imo.

As for accounting for the budgets and the release years, I will speculate a couple things. Maybe for PL software and people who knew how to use it were too expensive or unavailable? Maybe the special effects team was young, hungry and wanted to prove something? Those independent films can really pull out the stops it seems and I think PL was an indie movie?

For AC, maybe the team said things would be fixed but they ran out of time/funds? IDK how much of their budget was allocated for CGI.

Just some unsubstantiated thoughts lol.

Great points BigDave! You are right, there are some good CGI parts in Covenant, and there have been shockers of costumes in the past too! 

I think it depends with Budget and who is making the effects...

CGI when done well can look the Part....

Practical Effects when not done well can look Tacky....

I feel Alien Covenant, both Practical Designs and CGI seemed lacking, especially the Adult Neomorph and Xenomorph in Certain Shots...

The Egg and Face Hugger you could not really Fault.

But indeed Very well done Practical Effects, Outshine all but the very BEST CGI i think a lot depends on what the Object/Prop is as CGI is better in some instances, but sometimes creating realistic looking Organics, then VERY WELL done Practical Effects still look best.

Here is another by them, that kind of fits the Pale Man and Neomorph.

I also like this Fan Art..

By Adnan Ali...

Has a very Deacon Mural look to it

It is very similar to one of the Props that was used for one of Davids Experiments, its shame that design was not showed more...

I wonder if something similar is in store for Daniels?  Well its certainly not to far off what have visioned for her Fate.

Indeed that fitted together well ;)

I agree that the Neomorph was a great idea, just think more time and $$$$ was needed either on the Practical Version or the CGI Version.

You just have to wonder what a extra 3 months and $40-50M to the Special Effects/Creature Department and CGI Department could have Churned out...

@Charza

Indeed Prometheus made this substance kind of simple to follow, that would have been more easier to understand had parts of the Drafts made it into the movie and some alternative concepts (Fifeld)   I had a theory on the Black Goo/Sacrificial Goo that i had mentioned on here shortly after Prometheus, that MONTHS latter when Jon Spaights Alien: Engineers was leaked, his Nano-Scarabs basically showed how i interpreted the Black Goo.

I always said to anyone finding it hard to understand the Black Goo to go and Read Alien: Engineers and just replace Nano-Scarabs with Nano-Pathogenic Parasites.

But FOX released a Viral Weyland File to Explain the Black Goo in ways that did not add up to what we saw in the movie.... we see Alien Covenant with the Advent Viral attempt to Explain this would be MacGuffin further but again in a way thats not quite simple and a bit contradicting.

When working on Alien Covenant they should have STUCK to what Prometheus showed, and if they needed a Explanation... then Alien: Engineers provided it.

Which was at its Inception. ... the Sacrificial Substance was a Genetic Tool for Splicing DNA.    The Urn substance the result of a Organism Sacrificed by the Sacrificial Substance so that its DNA is stored in the Urns to be used to Splice it with Organic Matter.

THIS^^^ is how i interpreted Prometheus, its how Spaights version of the Goo worked and its Dead Simple, and Fits Perfectly with the context of the Engineers being Genetic Gardeners.

How "Gigeresque" is The Pale Man from Pan's Labyrinth with 46 and 2 as a soundtrack!!

Adam Jones had nothing to do with Pan's Labyrinth (this is just a fan-cut video) but just imagine if Guillermo del Toro's visionary work was involved with Alien: Covenant and the Neomorphs looked anything like the Pale Man instead of the CGI things we got. 

That's how you do menacing!

Bad Taste.... oh boy...

I have to admit i always have a soft spot for Peter Jacksons old Comedy Adult movies, Bad Taste, Braindead and Meet the Feebles.

"And why did David need the dna of that wasp which lays eggs in other living things to make is variant if the original creature is parasitic in nature"

The safest bet is that the Black Goo basically acts like a Virus, in that it hijacks Organisms methods of Procreation to Procreate a Hybrid form of itself.

"My personal theory about the Deacon lifecycle is that it was actually the reason for humanity to be created."

This Certainly is ONE theory, but its one i find Holes with, especially given the Ancient Astronaut Theory kind of way Prometheus showed how our Engineer interacted with us, and looking at how the Sacrificial Scene was Portrayed... this appeared to be a EVENT that showed us how these Engineers either Kick-Start Organic Life on a World by Providing the Building Blocks... or (and more likely) the event that acted as a CATALYST to Evolve Basic Life into Complex Life.

This is a very very long Process.... now Spaights Alien: Engineers was more simplistic because it showed the Engineer Sacririce, would evolve Primates to Early Humans... a TASK that would take FAR less than what Prometheus showed us.  Thus would fit better with a Theory about us being Created to be Farmed...

HOWEVER.... we Do-Not know if the Sacrificial Scene happened on Earth,  and RS had said this is how they Seed Worlds so it happens on other worlds, but we have yet to have a SPOON FED reason on FILM.

Thus the Sacrificial Scene could still be a way those Ancient Engineers Seeded Worlds to Resurrect their Race, and the Results are the Planet 4 Engineers.   Which means at some point in Future from these beings they could create Humans in a more Direct Shorter creation path/route, rather than the Sacrificial Scene in Prometheus.

BUT CERTAINLY a reveal that we are created for the Purpose of Procreating a Xenomorph Related Parasite is Sinister, its what HR Gigers Concepts seem to learn towards...

One Running Theory i had that i was tempted to adopt for my Prometheus 2/3 (which i had a number of theories/ways to explain it all) But one of them was to ADOPT the Annunaki Tale via throwing in HR Gigers Concepts....

This idea i had many years ago... after Prometheus.

Thus the Engineers were a Race that was created to Procreate Something similar to the Xenomorph,  The Engineers are THUS the Igigi only they was not created to MINE GOLD the Purpose was something Sinister related to the Black Goo/Xenomorph. 

These Engineers/Igigi rebelled against this Sacrificial Purpose, and one of TWO things happened (could not think which is best).

The Creators of the Engineers, Sacrifice a Engineer to Create Mankind so that Mankind Replaces the Engineers to be used for their Sinister Procreative Rituals (pretty much how the Annunaki Created Mankind).

Or the Engineers Create Mankind to replace them for the same purpose.

"It would be so nice if some interviewer could just as RS for some clarification already..."

Ridley Scott had kind of covered it in context to where we are now, he had prior to Alien Covenant, so after Prometheus he mentions "[These] are dreadful weapons way beyond anything we could possibly conceive, bacteriological drums of shit that you can drop on a planet"   

He has mentioned in other interviews about the stuff being a mutagen that evolves life, and so what we have is that THIS substance is a Pathogenic Mutagen, that appears to evolve Organic Matter to take on DNA traits that are shared by the Deacon and Xenomorph.

Ridley Scott has said that DAVID created it, referring to the Xenomorph and as GAVIN pointed out what David has actually done is experiment and cross hybrid various organisms with the Black Goo Mutagen, until he has arrived at the Xenomorph.

David has basically just taken like a number of different Dog Breeds and Cross Breed them to then make a NEW Dog...  But thats all he has done....  the Original DOG Genetics arrived from a WOLF type animal.    And so the Black Goo in effect is either the WOLF of came from the WOLF

I will say it appears that the earlier Xenomorph related Organisms, have been around but they appear to be running with the Xenomorph that David has created via utilizing the Black Goo, is the Precursor to the 1979 Xenomorph

The Deacon is a interesting Organism, that still holds some Mystery, indeed the events required to create the Deacon in Prometheus at the end of the movie, is something that requires a number of certain things.

We Do-Not However have a 100% Clear Explanation to this.

It either a result of.

*Black Goo Infected Sperm, Infects/Fertilizes a Female Egg Cell

*Black Goo Containing Nano Parasites Infects/Fertilizes a Female Egg Cell

*Black Goo Containing Nano Parasites enter the Womb of a Female Host and the Womb reacts to it just as if it was a Zygote

**Black Goo Containing Nano Parasites can just grow inside of a Host.

The last method linking it to how the Neomorph Motes worked,  and only the FIRST method requires a Male/Sex the 2nd/3rd could be transmitted to a female via intercourse with a infected Male.

We cant be sure (and it depends which of the above is closer to the Deacon Creation) if this series of events was required in the past to create the Organism in the Deacon Mural.

Thus we cant be sure if the Deacon Mural is exactly the same kind of Deacon, it could be related but then its how close is this relation, like Dr Shaws Deacon to a Neomorph, a Neomorph to a Xenomorph etc.

The Deacon Mural has to be...

*A Prophecy of something to come (unlikely)

*Something the Engineers were trying to create.

*Something they Created/Engineered from the Black Goo.

*Something they Created/Engineered that they then created the Black Goo from.

*Something they had encountered that lead to a Ancestor/Similar Organism, that the Engineers then Re-Engineered.

I will say ALIEN: COVENANT kind of tries to indicate the Black Goo is actually just one kind of Mutagen, that can be programed to infect Organic life in a Variety of ways.  So its Origin is NOT from some kind of Xenomorph Ancestral Organism.  And the Black Goo in those Urns are maybe Programmed to infect DNA the way it did.

ignorantGuy

My personal theory about the Deacon lifecycle is that it was actually the reason for humanity to be created. 

In my mind humanity on earth might actually have been created for the purpose of "farming".
Perhaps the engineers just created and cultivated all the races of humanity to have genetically similar but different creatures in order to experiment on them later on. 

It makes all of it pretty dark and disturbing. 

As for David and his "creations", I think most of it was chance really. The black accelerant just interacting with other organisms. Prometheus basically showed us, that this black goo "interacts" with any non floral lifeform. It significantly mutates everything alive it touches basically. 

The hammerpedes are an excellent example of this, as these creatures just emerged when the accelerant came into contact with worms.

It would be so nice if some interviewer could just as RS for some clarification already...

Gavin

However, for the murals to represent the Deacon, there is a chain of lucky events that must go on : A male to get infected, a womb to be impregnated with infected semen, a trilobite to get out, for it to find a host and finally the Deacon is born.

And why did David need the dna of that wasp which lays eggs in other living things to make is variant if the original creature is parasitic in nature? And how does the neomorph fit into the picture with it's simple life cycle and without the need for an egg carrier?

Why is it that when a character in the Alien movies says something it is given more credence than logic and common sense...

In Alien Dallas says the Space Jockey was Fossilized. It was not. Fossilization requires layers of sediment to encase the remains - the space jockey was not found to be and had never been encased in layers of sediment. The Space Jockey was either mummified or petrified. Though understandable (big skeleton = dinosaur display = fossil), Dallas' statement is wrong.

In Alien: Covenant David claims he created the Xenomorph. He did not. Though clearly a more primitive form, the Deacon is a variant form of the Xenomorph - Shaw's womb was the Egg, the Trilobite was the Facehugger and the Deacon was the Xenomorph Burster. With the Deacon clearly on display in the mural on LV-223, its existence dates back at least 2,000 years prior to Davids tinkerings on Planet 4. David made the Xenomorph, he did not create it; much in the same way, as I can bake a Victoria Sponge, but that doesn't credit me as its creator.

Anyone has The book of Alien by Paul Scanlon? How is it?

Yeah that was pretty gross. Definitely the enhanced sound of vomiting and the steam coming from it did it. The descriptions in the background of organs parts etc just helped keep the context. 

Oddly though Im not sure why the vomit was blue/green, but that actually lessened the impact somewhat

Batchpool Oh man that was disgusting and I couldn't watch the whole thing! Sound played a big part too. I cannot think of the term, but it is sort of a sympathetic response? Sort of like when someone yawns it makes you want to yawn or laughter. 

Kudos- I have not been grossed out like that in a while and I work with the real deal. 

Damn that was gross!

I totally agree that CONTEXT is everything. I would also suggest that gore can be limited by CREDIBILITY. When RS made Alien, one of the biggest factors in creating a success was getting the audience to believe in the xenomorph. There had to be a level of credibility that meant that the monster was much more than just a guy in a rubber suit. I think where there are scenes of gore, the same rule applies. What is seen must be believable; otherwise what is left can be comedic. There are of course movies such as Peter Jackson’s Bad Taste where a comedic effect is desirable and achieved through gore overkill. There are lost of gore scenes I can easily watch, but watching an alien puke up and then having his mates drink the fetid up-chuck does make my stomach crawl. TY Peter Jackson for sharing that idea, and that really is down to context.

Bad Taste vomit scene

Looking at the 2099 Merger date, this is a very plausible date that fits nicely with the Chronological Time Frame of events... i feel that a Merger date a few years prior would maybe not have worked and one that is a few years latter not fitted...  so 2099 fits slap bang in the middle.

Daniels mentions they had been planning the mission to Oriage-6 for over 10 years, which means herself and others had been planning this Mission since the time of the disappearance of Prometheus. (the Covenants Crew etc are not aware of this though).

But it shows us that a long time had gone into this mission, we DO-NOT know who was funding the Mission, but maybe we can assume Weyland Industries would have had a key role in the planning.

So at some point with the CEO's of Weyland Industries away on the Prometheus, we have to ask WHO is in charge and gives the orders etc....     Was the Covenant Mission only in its early stages as far as plans, and so no where near as far as building the ships etc... i think this is likely.

So with Weyland and Vickers missing in action, would any such investments be on hold?  would those working at the Company consider the Preparations that Daniels and her team had been making, simply not worth the investment in light of the Companies Situation as far as LOSS of Contact with Prometheus?

I think what ever events lead to the Merger, we can see that after the Merger, the Merged Weyland-Yutani company indeed had seen the potential in the ideas regarding a attempt to Colonize a Discovered Earth like World Oriage-6 and thus continued the advancement and preparations into this mission and its eventual Launch.

I just find it interesting that Daniels and her Partner would have at least been researching into Origae-6 as a potential 2nd Home for Mankind, and this process began 5 or so years prior to the Merger, and then actually had been funded and launched nearly 4-5 years latter.