New Replies (Page 405)
I appreciate the effort, i think indeed it could very well be the route RS was going with AI if he was allowed to finish his Project, would then allow us to see Ash and Bishop in a Totally different Light, where we may then be like "wow how could we not have seen or noticed this"
What David is able to have gathered is interesting, as you can be sure a Advanced AI like him only needs to look at a Painting for One Moment, or Glance/Read Once a Page from a Book and its logically he would visually record this into his memory and simply not forget or have it fade away as the Human Brain can.
So you can bet David could read and stored the information on the Door to the Big Head Ampoule Room, and also the markings on the Big Head Statue or indeed any other place where Engineer Writing was. The same has to be said about Planet 4 too. We also dont know how long he spent studying the Engineers Hologram and Control room in Prometheus, in the movie we cant be sure how much time passed while David was alone in the Juggernaught.
Then we also have to ask, when Dr Shaw was in Cryo-sleep how much information could David had gained from the Juggernaught during their journey, and not forgetting the wealth of knowledge that the Engineers had stored on Planet 4.
It will be interesting to when and what information David relays to the Company, it would also be interesting to wonder what Fate had occurred with David and if he is NO more at any point, would his Data stored in his Memory Banks be Salvageable.
The idea that Bishop had a secret Agenda/Mission would make sense for how those Eggs got onto the Sulaco.
I think Matt Hatton and Dane Hallet were hopping for a book to be released at some point and so fingers crossed, but regarding concepts in future movies i think we cant rule that out as a lot of unused concepts in the past have been a good basis for something that actually gets used in future movies.
So fingers crossed again!
Another great topic and ideas. I would love a book of all the artwork that was done for the film. Let us hope that these concepts will be used in future films and/or universe.
So much squandered potential.
Very True....
You have to wonder did they ever have a A-Z Plan, and if so it appears they never stick to it, and it appears a lot of times like its a Make it up as you go along, or constantly changing mind on certain things without any thought of how it effects or contradicts the prior information/clues.
Hopefully they NOW have a idea of where things fit within the Franchise, we can only hope that 10 Page Alien Franchise Guidebook has the answers even if they are never explored, as long as this Guide Book has the Answers that future movies etc will stick too, instead of a constant changing of ideas/direction. I also hope this Guide Book is NOT just a Book regarding the Xenomorph and Alien Franchise but also a guide to the Purpose/Agenda of the Engineers, connection to Black Goo, Mankind etc
I think thats a good point, there was a lot that could be explored, one reason i disliked Alien Covenant because it seemed to take everything the Previous movie had built up, leaving us anticipation for answers to the mysteries and how they could be answered/explored and then just simply swept under the Carpet... i felt The Last Jedi did exactly the same with what Force Awakens had set up.
"Engineers created and possibly worshiped the deacon"
This is a big Question, one that Alien Engineers and Prometheus had hinted at and RS had explained a bit, which was it was simply a Bio-Weapon or Result of a Bio-Weapon they had created to use on Mankind. (I feel this does not quite add up at all.... and i have a deeper theory)
"Engineer culture to make them need the xenomorph DNA"
As above its quite ambiguous but we clearly see the Sacrificial Goo and Black goo have different effects, i had a theory as Prometheus came out, that months latter when Alien Engineers was leaked, seemed to back this up. Alien Engineers regarding the Nano-Scarabs, if we look at this as the Goo then it makes perfect sense what was going on.. The Black Goo thus created from Sacrificing something related to the DNA of the Deacon with the Sacrificial Goo. I think the Engineers Suits, do have some shared Aesthetic with the Xenomorph, so there has to be a connection... maybe these Engineers were attempting to Perfect themselves, much like David was with his creations in AC, by trying to obtain certain traits from certain Organisms and apply them to Davids Creation... i think its possible those Engineers were doing the same, but a accident happened where the Fresco Creature was Created. The Engineers Experimented on this until they got the Mural Deacon which they saw as Perfection.
"why they created us"
The biggest Question of all maybe? One we maybe have to look at all creation Mythos to find common ground, as each Mythos has a different reason, some are connected though.. For example with the Bible, you have to ponder if Lucifer never rebelled then would GOD had ever created Man? The Annunaki tale if the Igigi never Rebelled would Mankind had not needed to be created?
Maybe we could look at WHY David was created? Holloway said it was because we COULD... in reality it was not that, it was that the Creation of AI/David was a Legacy and Greatest Achievement of Weyland, the Creation of David made Weyland feel he had become a Step Closer to being a GOD, but then the other reason for creating a Synthetic would be to have them replace Mankind for certain Tasks/Chores and so to be used as a Tool. (i also ponder if there was another reason, where Weyland was hoping Davids Creation could provide Weyland a Chance to step closer to being Immortal, if he could transfer his Soul into a AI).
So maybe our Creation was for the same reasons as Davids Creation, or maybe the same reasons that David wishes to Pursue his own Creation? Its very interesting as far as HOW they can explain WHY we was created or WHY the Engineers Create Life.
"was Jesus an Engineer"
They did loosely toy with the idea, but we need to remember Prometheus was not about showing us the Bible etc is about the Engineers, it was about how ALL Mythos/Religion share a common history to interactions with the Engineers. Ridley Scott said Jesus was a Emissary which i think gave the writer of that Draft 17 Orange Edition ideas to expand upon this... So yes Jesus could have been likely either a Hybrid, or a Human that was given Knowledge and Teachings of the Engineers and sent down to put us back on track.
I would say that would fit well within the Franchise, and Propose that they SENT a number of such Emissaries to various corners of the Globe, and when some Cultures turned their backs on the ways of the Engineers, these were cultures deemed doomed... but that maybe some Cultures who had no contact with the connected continents of Europe, Asia and Africa... maybe those other cultures who kept to very Ancient ways and Rituals (Ancient South American Tribes) still respected and listened to their Emissaries, this would be a good explanation to why some cultures still had STAR MAPS way after the supposed 2000 years ago Outbreak on LV-223. The Engineers may not have came back after this, but some Cultures who DID-NOT execute the Engineers Emissaries maybe had the ways of the Engineers passed on to them after the Outbreak by the Emissaries who remained on Earth.
When you look at the Corruption of Mankind and Morals, some Ancient Cultures lived in very Ritualistic Ways after say the Boom of the Roman Empire and Modern Man, and some Cultures still live today as they had done Thousands of years ago... so maybe these cultures had not offended the Engineers and had Emissaries living among them... Mayans etc This is how i can see Emissaries fitting and explain why there was Star Maps after the Period in History after the Death of Christ...
Also, keep in mind Ridley ect contradict themselves constantly in interviews...
I think a bit of ambiguity helps, but i think Prometheus was too ambiguous for people. There are a few differences to the way this draft was done as far as parts that was different to Lindeloffs Paradise, that look like they are not laid out in the style of Lindeloff.
There are some other flaws too...
I will latter attempt to go through the drafts changes and highlight what i think does not add up and makes me suspect this is not Lindeloffs work. I will however say it would have made a more interesting movie, some of the changes would... some dont add up to what previous drafts and comments prior and after by Ridley Scott and Lindeloff, there are some flaws and contradictions too.
But as far as theories, this draft does add some theories that could work... i think maybe we could try and contact Damon Lindeloff and see if this is Legit or not, i think on AVPGalaxy they had done that and concluded the Draft is Fake. But i dont really visit that site so i cant be sure.. I think its very likely its a Fan Edit, but i dont recall Lindeloff coming out to Confirm or Deny this.
I feel like Prometheus had so much potential to be explored and expanded and then the plot was squished by AC and now we will likely just get a rushed dash to the finish line to context with Alien with nothing being explored like why the Engineers created and possibly worshiped the deacon, what happened to the Engineer culture to make them need the xenomorph DNA, why they created us, was Jesus an Engineer, etc.
"Just seems like a jumbled, seat-of the pants mess now. "
It really depends what aspects of the Plot laid down by Prometheus we could consider to have now been messed with a bit to much, its something that can be fixed. I think the WHY would the Engineers Create Life is now even more interesting.... We have to wonder if their Agenda was Mankind, or if the Faction of Engineers on LV-223 had actually taken the ways of the Engineers to Create Mankind, when the intentions was never to do so?
There is so many ways that things can be explored and answered, i hope we get some answers at some point, but certain things have pointed to certain explanations for me... The Sacrificial/Black Goo, the Reason for LV-223 and Purpose of those Planet 4 Engineers all seems to be not so complicated... its just the Reasons for WHY that is something we basically cant come up with a definite answer for.
Regarding how David could use Females Reproductive Organs, thats quite easy, provided he has the Tools to do so, the Problem with Alien Covenant is everything looked very Iron Age, and Crude.... some concepts simply showing David merely takes out her Reproductive Organs and her Milk Producing Glands....
Doing such a thing would be Scientifically impossible i would assume with say Tools from say hundreds of years ago or longer, but not with Technology and Tools from say hundred years or more in the Future.
Its just a Flaw with how they handled Alien Covenant, because we can see David has managed to vivisect Alien Organisms from results of the Black Goo etc, and also vivisected Engineers and Eggs all with Laser Precision with no Tools that actually should be able to perform this.
If we was to look at it Scientifically and Logically, then all you would need to do is incapacitate a female in some way and have apertures that can extract Egg Cells, that can be experimented on within a Technology more Advanced Laboratory. Or even Impregnate the Female and Extract the Fetus after a certain point in time to experiment on.
The Black Goo in Prometheus showed us (well hinted) that it can re-write DNA and in doing so can resurrect living cells. And so if David got a Engineer or Human Female Pregnant and extracted any stage Fetus say from Week 3/4 or latter.
And then expose this to Black Goo, i think we can assume it would mutate/evolve the Fetus and maybe it could survive due to the Xeno-Virus Pathogens effects?
Just seems like a jumbled, seat-of the pants mess now.
Well we dont know what the deal was with the Engineers, from Jon Spaights ideas the Engineers had been hinted to have evolved themselves to the point of losing the ability to Procreate.
Ridley Scott at the time of Prometheus had said the Engineers could create in other ways, its just the Sacrificial Scene was how they choose to do it...
Alien Covenant showed us Female Engineers, Ridley Scott claimed these Engineers are Ancient yet only live for about 150 years and so i think we can safely assume with these comments and clues in the movie and the writings David made on his drawings, that the Engineers on Planet 4 could indeed Procreate.
Which does raise Questions to WHY did the Engineers use the Sacrificial Route, and DO they still perform this ritual as of the time line of Alien Covenant? A lot of stuff now does seem to point to those LV-223 Engineers being either a Outcast Faction who Genetically Engineered themselves, or they was Genetically Engineered by those Planet 4 Engineers for some Purpose. So the LV-223 Engineers are either to those Planet 4 Engineers as Replicants are to Humans... or they are Group that had done something bad and got kicked out of Paradise and they continued to Engineer themselves...
Either way... those LV-223 Engineers either Lost or could never Procreate, thats just really what i take from all of this i am not 100% sure if thats correct though, but RS comments when he calls those Planet 4 Engineers the Originals does seem to push me to one of THOSE TWO options to explain the LV-223 ones.
ugh there was just so much potential in both films. BigDave, why does it always seem with Ridley that the concept art/ideas are better than what they used or didn't cut?
Which part is comparable to Bone Tomahawk?
Just had a quick look at the Plot, you mean the Pregnant Females? with all their limbs amputated.
I think David indeed would have incapacitated Dr Shaw and Female Engineers, but i dont see any proof of them being amputated, just what some of Hattons work had her as, which was like the Venus Statue. It would be interested to see how David deals with Daniels as in some of Hattons other concepts, he has Dr Shaw with her cut open and some of her organs hanging out, but she is partially buried like under ground as if he has drugged her then buried her and dug up only the area of her head and torso so she is incapacitated.
The source i had from Feb 2015 had hinted Dr Shaw was maybe incapacitated by being fused with some Bio-Mechanical Machine/Device.
If the engineers are sterile which is why they needed the xenomorph dna in the first place, how could David use the females' reproductive organs?
But what is you are wrong and its not a fake? This information if it was included would have made Prometheus a FAR better film. It makes so much sense too. The movie would have been so much less open ended and disjointed.
This Script had been covered here a few times and recently HERE
I would be 95% certain this is a Fan Edit of Lindeloffs Paradise, where they have taken some theories and applied them to the Draft, they had used some things that were hinted from Jon Spaights Alien Engineers, i think the draft has flaws that dont add up to what Lindeloff has commented on in the past.
But even so its a nice effort by who ever did this draft, but i feel it is FAKE.
I really would hate for that to happen.... no resurrecting anyone we had that with Ripley lol
Edit: i would not object to a flash back of David and Dr Shaw though, i think a few of them would not be too bad.
I think the ambiguity is there in his comments so it leaves it open to how they explain or explored what David had done, we see so many different pieces of work with Dr Shaws fate, and on one hand do we assume David had mutilated her, then put her back together and repeated? But then some of the work she is evolved into something different so that does not add up, so maybe he cloned her but then if he did this he could Technically never had lost her.
I think a lot of those works where what he had in store for her, and others are just some weird stuff thats going on his his head. Showing us that this is on Mentally Unstable Android.
Regarding the Engineers though.... indeed i can just picture David recovering a few Females and a Male and finding some way to incapacitate them and then basically impregnating the females against their wishes for the purpose of providing David with Engineer Fetus to Experiment on. Prior to the Movie i was wondering if David had used Dr Shaw in the same way....
Having David offer Shaw a Covenant, so while she has NOTHING David can offer her a deal, he can allow her to have the ONE thing she thought she could not.... Children.... by suggesting with Engineer Sperm and a few tweaks he could allow Dr Shaw to bare Child.... how would she react to such a offer?
IF we take some of Hattons comments as what David could actually had been up to it does then GIVE us a different outlook to what his Plans for those Thousands of Colonist could be.. Ridley Scott had asked the Question... What Kind of a World would David Create/Build?
Kudos to those award recipients. It would be interesting to see a fan driven show (I know there are some) that go off the beaten path.
Kangaroo's are fine. Its the bloody drop bears you have to watch out for.
Dundee looks pretty good. I forgot how good the original was way back- that was a classic.
BTW- hasn't there been a documentary made or in the making about kangaroos going on over there? I have actually watched a series about those koalas.
BigDave A lot of those 80s movies were/are great although they look a bit innocent compared our more jadedness now. It was just a different era and I think Dundee will probably translate well to 2018.
There's only one thing I can think of that's worse.
@Ingeniero Moving this to the Blade Runner forums.
*Edit* Eh, actually i'll leave it, it's 50/50 BR and Alien.
Side note, I run the Blade Runner forums here, the FB and the Twitter. It used to look very different but Chris merged it with the rest of the sites and there is almost no activity there anymore. I'll ask Chris to put it back like it was if possible, since you guys seem to want to post about Blade Runner but always put the posts on the Alien forums.
This is what the site used to look like, I chose the colors and Images.
Danny Dundee
8D
BigDave - Thx for the screen grabs!
'They could be different Shaws, or the same Shaw revived and reconstructed to be pulled apart again. Or maybe even worse...'
Thank you for revisiting these lines by Matt Hatton. I started a topic dealing with his opinion in question last October: http://www.alien-covenant.com/topic/46751
'In one of the comments by concept artist Matt Hatton I have found something more bizarre regarding Elizabeth Shaw's fate.
Hatton: 'It wasn't just adults that David 'explored'. Here's a study of an Engineer child. The inference is, what did he do to get the musculature and then skeleton study? Yeesh!...'
--------: '...it's clear, and these are that much more unsettling when we see renderings of the Engineer children... diabolical.'
Hatton: 'But here's the zinger. If he's already killed everyone in the metropolis, he might be reviving them (we saw this in the previous film) or cultivating them specifically for his 'work'! Same with the different 'conflicting' drawings of Shaw. They could be different Shaws, or the same Shaw revived and reconstructed to be pulled apart again. Or maybe even worse...'
--------: "...reconstructed to be pulled apart again"... would mean her fate was even worse than we've seen or imagined... treading into some unspeakable places, where even my imagination was afraid to go!'
If Hatton confirms that it is possible that we see a Shaw clone in Alien Covenant, it can't be stated that Elizabeth is dead. In other words, the character can be brought back, Shaw might return in the next Alien movie.'
For the full comment section, visit Hatton's instagram page: https://www.instagram.com/p/BZXJL5Llrk8/?taken-by=matthatt0n
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IRaptus - Yes.
Mortal Kombat (1995), Event Horizon (1997), and Soldier (1998) were directed by him under the name Paul Anderson.
He is the director of Alien vs Preadator (2004), Death Race (2008), The Three Musketeers (2011), Pompeii (2014) and the producer of Pandorum (2009).
Blade Runner 2049 - Denis Villeneuve, Ridley Scott, Harrison Ford, Ryan Gosling are talking in a BTS photo taken in Budapest, Hungary. Now we know that they were talking in Deckard's apartment. :)
We can discover the same furniture in these stills from the movie:
That is imagery straight of Bone Tomahawk... another great thing I'll never rewatch... and not original at all.
Who needs this stuff?
I agree BigDave, Space and dead planets/moons are much better for the Alien series....But I'm not sure Cameron would settle for space...
I'd start the movie aboard a Russian starship called 'Pushkin':
The vessel is orbiting a giant water world. The world has 3 moons that tug and create giant waves/tides. Hostile environment to say the least. The Pushkin has been supporting the Antar.
The captain and crew of scientists have been to the derelict and have returned with canisters and large green crystals. They have strict orders to return the artifacts to Earth, for study.
Aboard the ship, the captain is saying farewell to his sister, she is in an airlock with her new husband, they are going on their honeymoon. The captain promises the newlyweds the artifacts will not be studied until they return.
The captain watches them leave....Then grabs a ax and heads toward the crew quarters.....
Indeed V I N E T I C U M interesting connections... a lot of time Venus is associated with the Goddess of Love and Fertility and we can see David maybe felt she would give him love, as he interpreted her feelings wrong, and then he indeed used her Fertility so to speak to create his Perfection.....
With Dr Shaw lacking Fertility, David via is perverted view of Love, has in her death rewarded her with Fertility. A interesting thing is some of Matt Hattons concept works on Dr Shaw had portrayed her like the Statue of Venus, with no Arms and in some concepts No Legs/Deformed Legs. So she had basically became incapacitated so that David could use her just as a Birthing Machine for Harvesting her Reproductive Cells for his Experiments.
I think we can assume safely David may wish to carry out what he had done to Dr Shaw on Daniels or even what he may have further wished to have done with Daniels. The other thing of interest is we have to assume his Xenomorph is on his Agenda, which i think he wishes to make some more tweaks and if Dr Shaw was Pivotal to its creation he certainly could need Daniels or any other Female to continue his Legacy.
@Critters5
To a extent indeed, i would assume if David wanted to Create some form of Life with the Black Goo, then if he wished to use Dr Shaw from Day One, then the simple route would be to infect her Womb with the Pathogen, the results would really depends on HOW exactly she became Pregnant with the Trilobite if the only way this happened was via infected Sperm, then David would need a Sperm Donor, we have to wonder is Engineer Sperm Compatible? If the only way to a Trilobite was infected Sperm, then we have to ask what does the Pathogen do directly with Egg Cells.
But i appears Davids Creation took multiple experiments and hybridization, and i would think if David had intended to only Replicate the DEACON his task would have been much more simple... Unless. The Deacon required Infected Sperm, and Engineers is not compatible (or they are infertile) which then we have to wonder what KIND of Organism comes from a Black Goo + Female Egg Cell.
This is a reply to the Last Image i posted on Matt Hattons Instagram, a reply to the Engineer Child.
matthatt0n
@r.oppenheimer But here's the zinger. If he's already killed everyone in the metropolis, he might be reviving them (we saw this in the previous film) or cultivating them specifically for his 'work'! Same with the different 'conflicting' drawings of Shaw. They could be different Shaws, or the same Shaw revived and reconstructed to be pulled apart again. Or maybe even worse David really is creative in a very human way and the drawings are his plans of what he might have done or eventually did do. I wanted it so that any way you slice it (bad choice of words), he's a bit of a worry to say the least! But that even though we know for a fact he killed them, at least leaving some ambiguity opens it up again instead of closing things off and being reductive. The rest of Covenant is pretty literal and I didn't want to do that in my own little part at least. Cheers!
So this kind of does show the deliberate ambiguity like i mentioned in my previous post, these images and comments do seem to show that potentially David had done some pretty Sadistic things to the Specimens he acquired.
Certainly if some of this is the case, if it was done as a Movie or a Short its something that surely would not be no PG-13 and even push R Boundaries for sure... Be a Cert 18 in UK.
Indeed Dark Nebula, there could have been many places they could have escaped, we have to logically look at HOW David could experiment on the Engineers though, because he surely got his ASS KICKED in Prometheus, this could be explained as those LV-223 being Genetically Engineered Super Engineers though, but even so the Engineers appear to be Larger than Human on Planet 4 but there heights seem to vary from 6-7ft tall, with maybe some being a bit bigger.
so if the LV-223 Engineers are Genetically Engineered like say the Replicants in Blade Runner, then a actual Planet 4 Engineer could maybe only be as strong as say a 6.5-7ft Physically Fit Human Male, and smaller for Females. I think the BIG KICKER has to be these beings had NO IDEA of the impending Doom and simply were no prepared for such a Disaster, thus those who found Shelter maybe had no Provisions to last, and over time with a lack of Food and Drink they would be ripe for the Pickings.
Matt Hatton ponders if they could be reanimated but i think this is him not considering the reason for this in Prometheus was with that Device, so David would have had to have found and taken the Neuro Stabilizer with him. He also proposed the idea of David cloning so it seems... maybe this is not so far fetched, but then within 10 years we have to ask how does David accelerate Growth? I think Hatton has pondered a number of things with ambiguity to that it leaves a OPEN BOOK to if these things get explained by RS/FOX
David spent 10 years on the planet 4, I'm pretty sure he had whole engineer city to explore. Maybe there were graveyards/catacombs where engineers buried their deceased. Maybe some engineers died of old age or from some disease the day before his arrival and he got their bodies for his experiments. The engineers in the plaza that were welcoming the juggernaut's arrival were doomed from start. I'm sure not all engineers were at the plaza, maybe some were in their homes. The engineers in front of the citadel on the staircase during the bombardment had more time to get to the safety (if there were any shelters inside the citadel).
