Comments (Page 51)

Yeah we need a new xenomorph world that isn't LV-426

I like to think if the xenomorphs were an artificial creation then there would had to be xenomorph production-centers scatter across Engineer/Space Jockey space.

You don't make one weapons factory or warship drydock or tank/plane assembly line.

Please, I hope this is a good movie. I hope this movie isn't a run of the mill/gorefest slasher movie in space using the ALIEN name.

"In Terms of a Synthetic would be the same as a Human, i would disagree if the Game Mechanics would take into account that a Synthetic would be Quicker, Stronger and more Resilient than a Human. If you was Playing as a Synthetic then you could have things like Night Vision as Standard.  Have the Game FPS like Slower a bit so that Attacks and Shots from the Enemy are say 10-20% Slower so the Player can React Better to them.... this would give the Player a Advantage and Portray the Quicker Reflexes of a Synthetic."

Wait wouldn't that give the synthetic player an unfair advantage over the players of the other species? 

"And so i dont think they would PLAY like a Yautja it depends on HOW you deal with their Technology."

Well I meant they would play similar to a Yautja, just beefier, but I see your point.

Regarding the NAME.... it depends if this is a Working Title....

If the Title remains the same then we cant Assume to have connection to the Romulus Legend... it could have Vague Connections or NONE at all. If you try and Read into the LEGEND... then you could maybe be drawn to David and Origae-6 but i DOUBT this Movie will be Connected to the Prequels at all.

Hopefully a New World.... and NOT going back to LV-426

I think Disney are doing a kind of RESET with the Franchise, i am NOT sure we will be touching upon the Prequels at all.

We know nothing much about this Movie, the Plot seems a bit like ALIEN COVENANT, i can only go and Assume its Premise is similar as in we have a Smaller Group of Humans (20s and 30s) looking to Colonize a New World.

The Plot i can only ASSUME would be similar to Alien Covenant with the Following Changes.

1) Maybe this World is Uninhabited a Virgin World and so like Planet 4 from Alien Covenant if say there was NO ENGINEER CITY!

2) It would thus be like Alien Covenant had the Crew came to a Virgin World as far as NO CIVILIZATION, but at some point they come across some PLACE where there will be XENOMORPH EGGS.

So i can Assume it would be like if Alien Covenant had those Eggs in a Cave or something and there was NO CITY, NO DAVID and the Covenant Crew had began to SET UP their Habitat and then they make a Horrific Discovery and so it would be a bit like Raised by Wolves (Minus Robots).

Will it Connect to the TV Show?  Will it be its OWN THING? we just dont know.

Is it a Alternative Canon or not? again we cant be sure at this Point. We have NO IDEA of what Time-Line the Movie is SET IN..

"@BigDave › Do you think that the Engineer thought of 'immortality' like we humans do?"

I think its Hard to say for sure... it depends on HOW it was that RS wanted to Portray them.  It seems that they saw Immortality as in a way to Procreate, as in they likely had NO RELIGION as FAR as a Immortal After-Life.

And so they would see the way they would LIVE ON would be to PASS ON their DNA and to Teach their Knowledge.  The Engineer in Question either saw that Mankind was a Inferior Creation who he found was a INSULT to Demand some kind of Immortality.

Or he was a Engineered Creation used for a Purpose like say Replicants are, and so when he saw Weylands Demands, he maybe saw in Weyland, his own Creators and Masters who maybe his kind had Rebelled against.

The Engineer seemed to take PITY on David, maybe that he saw himself in David as he was a Creation like David was to SERVE, and if these Enhanced Engineers are Superior to the Alien Covenant Engineers which they appear to be, but they are Servants of those Engineers, then YES... the Engineer could have seen a Similarity in David.  And so would see this Old Man Weyland, who is Dying and thinks he has the GIVEN RIGHT to be Immortal because he Created David, the Engineer likely seeing this as a Insult in how Weyland reacts and treats David who is a Superior being...

Ultimately the Engineer would realize the Potential of Danger that a Advanced being like David could pose, as the Engineers posed this Threat to their Creators and so the Engineer could NOT allow David to Survive and so he also had to GO!

Regarding the Immortality Aspect... the Background to the Engineers from Concept, was they were ONCE like Humans, they had Advanced in ways to Prolong themselves, but they was NEVER really Immortal... but it was SOMETHING that they had been working to become... to be on the VERGE of something where they would Transcend from their Organic Bodies.....

Back to David... he is the CLOSEST to Immortal.... he could UPLOAD/SAVE his Synthetic A.I Soul.... thus be able to Re-incarnate himself... if a Human was able to Transcend their Soul/Memories to a A.I Storage like say we see in the MOVIE... The 6th Day....  and then UPLOAD this to a Synthetic like David then THIS would be a way for a Human to become Immortal of sorts.

I would like to think the Engineers had tried this or Similar.... maybe the Xenomorph or its Progenitor is something they saw as being the KEY to this Immortality?

The Closest we have seen to what i Propose is RIPLEY  8 she is a Clone, that has retained some of the Memories/Soul of Ripley... was the Xeno-DNA the KEY?

If so this would Explain a Better Interest from the Engineers in a related Progenitor.

I think thats a Possibility yes....

Did the Destruction of Hadleys Hope, go and DESTROY the Derelict? We cant be 100% sure, it would seem the Intention was this....

The Problem we have is Alien Resurrection, as IF they could Obtain a Specimen from the Derelict after 2180... then it kind of makes NO SENSE to attempt to Clone Ripley in order to Obtain a Specimen.

Speaking as ONLY in Terms of the Movies.... then you could go back to LV-426 and see if there are Viable Eggs to be had, or would they NEED some Experiments to be able to Obtain a Specimen (for Example have they suffered Damage or Radiation etc).

But i like to think we NEED to get out of that BOX that the ALIEN MOVIE Franchise has been Stuck in.....

Question...... Was LV-426 the ONLY place that these Ships had Visited?

If we go the route the Xenomorph is a Engineered Weapon (David or Engineers) then can we ASSUME that the Derelict was the ONLY Ship that they had been Loaded onto?

If they go the Route that the Engineers/David had NOT gone and Created the Xenomorph and they are a Pre-existing Organism, then you could GO to where they came from... but having this be LV-426 would be a COP OUT!

Its Nice to hear that, and hopefully the Cinema can recover and get back to what it once was.

I have to agree with Thoughts_Dreams on this one....

Looking at the Gaming Franchise, there does-not seem to be too much of a Difference in HOW they Play.... I think yes you could have some Different Xenomorph Hybrids/Mutations so that they OFFER something Different to say the Xenomorph from ALIEN/ALIENS. But i am not sure HOW like Groundbreaking this would be.. and its been done before.

Fire Team Elite did add some other Monsters based from the Prequels which i think has Potential. But if just vs Standard Xenomorphs then i think it would become a bit Limited and Repetitive.

So adding other Enemies to the Mix gives some Variation, within Context to the Franchise you would have Rival Human Interests...and yes you can add Synthetics, but also some Synthetics do-not need to LOOK so Human (take Alien Isolation as a Example).

In Terms of a Synthetic would be the same as a Human, i would disagree if the Game Mechanics would take into account that a Synthetic would be Quicker, Stronger and more Resilient than a Human. If you was Playing as a Synthetic then you could have things like Night Vision as Standard.  Have the Game FPS like Slower a bit so that Attacks and Shots from the Enemy are say 10-20% Slower so the Player can React Better to them.... this would give the Player a Advantage and Portray the Quicker Reflexes of a Synthetic.

I would also not say a Engineer would Play the  same as a Yautja (Predator), a Yautja would have a Speed/Agility Boost over a Human as well as Strength, and then they have Various Enhanced Vision due to their Technology but its their Weapons/Cloaking Tech that gives them a Advantage.

We know so LITTLE about the Engineers... they were Intended to be 10ft Tall (down from 12-15ft) but alas as RS did-not want to use any Special Effects etc we Basically had 8ft Engineers suited...and Unsuited it would appear we have a 7-7.5ft Tall Humanoid.

What we have seen from Prometheus, is the Engineer suits do offer a Considerable amount of Protection and so would take more Damage than a Yautja. I would say it showed the Engineer to be Stronger than a Yautja also.

But we need to bare in mind this is the Military/Clone Engineers from Prometheus we are talking about. Which appear to be Genetically Engineered/Enhanced versions of their Race, much like a Replicant is to a Human.

When it comes to Weapons, Tools and Technology then the SKY is the LIMIT, as these Engineers are Millions of Years ahead of Humanity and so Potentially their Technology would be more Advanced than the Yautja.

And so i dont think they would PLAY like a Yautja it depends on HOW you deal with their Technology.

I will add that they kind of tried to make a Ripley out of Daniels in Alien Covenant, i dont think her Character really paid off too well though....

I dont really think that WOKENESS would come into Play as  the ALIEN Franchise has always had a Female Lead Character. With the Prequels they NEVER stood out as well as Ripley but i dont think this means the Solution would be to MOLD a Character to be a Carbon Copy Ripley.

I think that you have some interesting ideas when it comes to how you can use the Engineers, that's something to think about.

“You want there to be more non-xenomorph enemies or a complete absent of xenomorph enemies correct? Having more enemies that aren't xenomorphs would add more variation to the game and would give the players a break from fighting the xenomorphs (depending on the genre).

But making an ALIEN game without xenomorphs will never happened. It would be like making a Grand Theft Auto game without the ability to steal cars.”

If you by non-Xeno enemies mean things like the engineers or maybe some enemy of the engineers, then sure. This doesn't mean that you can't have Xenos, or some monsters that are related to them in the game (think about how the Neomorphs are related to the Xenomorphs, for example). You can have a mix of new things, and old things. Just because it's new doesn't mean that it's good, just because it's old(er) doesn't mean that it's bad. Maybe the traditional Xeno can be in a cameo-role so they can focus on new things.

I'm not pointing the finger at the traditional Xenomorph, but I would prefer if they put in other things and expand the alien-universe. Eventually this could mean focusing more on the Engineers or some other civilization that would compete with the engineers for power… maybe. You can have those things in games or maybe in a future movie.

I hope they do-not go and TRY and replicate us a NEW Miss Ripley....

A Character should be Created Strongly to STAND on their own Merits rather than to try and become a Ripley Clone, because they will then be Judged and Compared to Ellen Ripley.

But i agree that her Character was done really well..... i think we could maybe see something pushing for a similar Fashion as in they begin as NOT a Strong Leader but are MOLDED into a Tough Character after the Horrific Experience they have had to Experience and Survive...... we kind of saw this with Dr Shaw in one of the Alternative Endings.  (Because your a F-ing Robot)

I would love to see the Engineers in an Alien video game. I think they are long overdue for more than just a cameo appearance.

I'm going to list some video game genre that I think could utilize the engineers.

Shooters: Engineers would make an interesting addition to the roster for an AVP game. Although they would be very similar to the Predators and Marines but you can add some extra lore bits that could make them more distinct. Like maybe shielding technology.

Strategy: We don't get many strategy games set in the Alien universe but the Engineers could be a sort of Beast Master faction since they created the xenomorphs and other related beings.

Role Playing Game: A kind of combindence of the above two examples.

You want there to be more non-xenomorph enemies or a complete absent of xenomorph enemies correct? Having more enemies that aren't xenomorphs would add more variation to the game and would give the players a break from fighting the xenomorphs (depending on the genre).

But making an ALIEN game without xenomorphs will never happened. It would be like making a Grand Theft Auto game without the ability to steal cars.

wow i am happy it's on Switch. Let's Rock 

Xenotaris

I'm not a gamer, you got that right

“You said the Engineers don't need to be enemies”

I meant that they don't need to be the Only enemies, you can have them and other things. Maybe I forgot one word or two, things like that happen sometimes.

“What would make them different from the Yautja player?”

I don't know, that would be up to the developers of the game to do. It would be a missed opportunity to not add them as an enemy in the game at some point, and just have the same old Xeno-like monsters, or the Predators. By using them they could add new things, maybe something that Prometheus didn't use in the movie but that was in the scripts.

I agree somewhat, However the eggmorphing ability has a severe drawback. You need to SACRIFICE two hosts to result a single xenomorph. The Queen gets around this by producing MULTIPLE eggs WITHOUT sacrificing a SINGLE human to make the eggs. Which results in more xenomorphs, which is not only more EFFICIENT but also in someways... in SOMEWAYS... more scary

Thoughts_Dreams

Almost everything you said tells me you never played a video game.

What I meant about the androids, at a gameplay stand point they would be almost identical. Both resemble each other just one bleeds red and the other white. Now depending on the game's genre, you could add a stat difference especially if you are making the game an RPG, but an FPS the synthetic will just be a human with blood gameplay wise.

Take the AVP games and Aliens Fireteam, you have synthetic enemies but the differences between them and the human enemies was cosmetic. The one partial exception is AVP2, were the android's don't emit an aura for xenomorph players.

I am all for monster diversity, Fireteam Elite and AVP2 added non-xenomorph enemies to the game. Fireteam added pathogen monsters in the vein of the Neomorph and Fifield, while AVP2 Primal Hunt had the native wildlife of Lv-1201 as your enemies.

You said the Engineers don't need to be enemies, well I think you forgot to read the part of them being playable characters. What would make them different from the Yautja player? Outside of cosmetic differences?

I know that it's a bug thing, but it's less known and therefore more alien (that's the point). If you would ask some random people if they knew about queens and how that works, and then ask them about egg-morphing, you would probably see that more people would know about the queen-version. Egg-morphing fits the franchise better since it's more alien, but the queen is alright.

“how are you going to make an ALIEN game built around the Engineers?”

“ALIEN games have always either been about gunning down xenomorphs or hiding from xenomorphs since the good old atari days.”

I didn't say that you only got to have them as enemies, you can have Engineers and other things. To just have Xenos when you can also include other things (like for example hammerpedes, what ever) would a missed opportunity and boring to me. What you can do is also to heighten the importance of the Engineers in the game, kind of like how they tried to make the Engineers important in Prometheus. Don't limit the franchise to just Xeno-monsters (monsters with Xeno-traits), it gets repetitive. I would like to see new things, not just things that get re-chewed so to speak.

“... they can have very diverse forms due to the xenomorph caste system/take on their hosts' traits…”

Yeah I know, fair enough, but there could be other things than just Xeno-like creatures. I would like to see new things and not just Xeno-isms that we've had since the late 1970's. Not that Xenos are bad, but because I'm more interested in new things.

“... androids would be no different then the human players just with white blood.”

Eh, no. Androids are synthetic, humans are organic, but I see what you mean. Maybe, it depends on how they are made. There could be ways to build them as characters, in ways that I might not be able to see.

About the Engineers, I would probably give the same answer to you as I did with the androids. What's good about games is that you can come up with new stories and therefore try new things, they don't need to be strictly tied to what came before. You can add things, remove things. In case those things are interesting enough they might show up in a movie sooner or later, who knows. I would rather get new things instead of just having what we've seen a lot of times before. Just because you try new things doesn't mean that you got to start completely new, from square one so to speak.

Your thing seems to be that they (Disney or what ever) can't introduce some new things into the franchise, since they are in your world not alien, as in the franchise. My approach is that you can introduce new things and still have it in the alien-franchise. This seems to be a thing where we have different opinions, but that’s alright.

In general, I would rather take something new, instead of having a movie or game with the Xenos again and again. Just because you add new things doesn't mean that it can't fit with what's already there. As long as it makes sense, then why not? Prometheus for all its flaws added something new (Engineers) but at least it tried. You can have something new there that connects things, but at the same time try new things.

Cool

Explain to me, Thoughts_Dreams, how are you going to make an ALIEN game built around the Engineers? Hmmm?

ALIEN games have always either been about gunning down xenomorphs or hiding from xenomorphs since the good old atari days. It works, because the xenomorph has alot to offer for a video game enemy, they can have very diverse forms due to the xenomorph caste system/take on their hosts' traits, whether you like that idea or not, (it's been part of ALIEN canon since the original, according to the creator commentary)

This why Alien vs Predator games are very popular because when you throw in the Yautja, you get more enemies to fight and more gameplay options. Also the ability to play as a Colonial Marine, Xenomorph, and Yautja will always be a popular.

Androids are okay as enemies and while it would be cool to play as one, (we can in the Alien RPG), however gameplay wise, androids would be no different then the human players just with white blood.

Engineers would be interesting as a boss-type enemy but at a gameplay point of view, the engineers would just be tankier version of the Predator/Yautja player/mobs. Especially if we give the Engineers any advanced weaponry.

Hopefully they make something new, going back to something that has been successful is to play safe, but it becomes too limiting. It's safe to travel a familiar road, but sooner or later it gets old, so I prefer if they make something new. Maybe games is something where they can try to make new things in the franchise? Somewhere there got to be a place to introduce new things, so we don't get limited to Xeno-monsters (Xenomorphs, not Neomorphs and so on, but the original Xeno-monster). Xenos are awesome, but there is a place for other things too. A franchise where you don't dare to have new things gets limited, stagnates, and eventually dies.

“A king has his reign and then he dies” Im not a huge fan of Prometheus but that line is interesting. We are born, live, and die. It’s what we do in our lives that count

Hopefully the reign of the Alien-franchise can be expanded, so it can continue to live and not die by just being repetitive (for example by always have Xenos in it). One thing to do this is to expand on the Engineers, games might be a way to do that. When you throw in the Engineers you can also create new things from there, maybe new worlds.

@Jonesy, I don't think anyone is hearing our prayers for an Alien: Isolation 2 unfortunately... haha

Good to know another new Alien game coming up so soon. This one looks similar to Fireteam (which is a great game) but I prefer a Alien Isolation part 2. Anyway, I am looking forward to it and the trailer looks good. 

That poster with the baby is pretty striking, I have to say.

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=594593419366723&set=a.558931926266206&paipv=0&eav=AfarkwywB52LlxI5tR39WJCCzjVhRUZbwE-6BYyrVRA3YunznELEXQewLPLMzvSpb40&_rdrhttps://www.deviantart.com/lagrie/art/Alien-Romulus-942145002

I'm not a podcaster myself but I'd love to listen to one

This is why if I ever write a sci-fi work I'd either set in like 10.000 years in the future of keep it really vague.

With all the reorganizing and cancellations of projects many studios are doing right now I'm kinda having a hard time getting excited about anything that hasn't started filming yet. I worry anything I look forward to can get snatched away in the blink of an eye.

The lack of eyes is one of the most striking design elements, and a thing that truly makes it scary and 'alien' to humans.

I wish this would have happened

I wished the TV series would have been more like the Alien RPG instead of another Prequel series.

I want a Star Trek: The Next Generation version of the ALIEN TV series, I don't want a Star Trek: Discovery version of the ALIEN TV series.

Meaning, they should adapt and expand on the ALIEN's human civilization. Outside of the Alien RPG and Dark Horse Alien/AVP Comics, we know next to nothing about the alien-verse outside of the Weyland/Weyland-Yutani Corporation and the Xenomorphs.

The Predators are called Yautja by the way.

Well you don't have to evolve the xenomorph to change the ALIEN movie format. You could play into more of the Weyland-Yutani Corporation storyline and their attempts to weaponize the xenomorphs or canonicalize the Union of People's Progression, the Three World Empire, and United America's interstellar cold war, with xenomorphs caught in the middle.

Big Dave you need to read the Alien RPG books they have done with some interesting things with the xenomorphs or more accurately interesting things with the black goo

human villians are okay as long its the xenomorph thats the main antagonist as in being the more direct antagonist

"but for the simple fact that it's 2023 and every movie coming out lately has been a regurgitation of the same woke tropes stuffed into ever crevasse of a movie's plot"

Sadly this is Very True....

In regards to the Movie we know so LITTLE about it... i dont have as much Concern for it as i do the TV Series though...

It seems more likely it will touch upon the more Horror Aspect of the Xenomorph, which is what ALIEN and ALIEN 3 had done vs the more Action Aspect of a ALIENS and ALIEN R.  We have seen much more of a Action side to the Xenomorph in Comics and Video Games vs the Horror/Thriller Aspect.

So im ok with them Exploring a Unsuspecting Group of Humans who Stumble upon some Horror that they are NOT prepared for and have LITTLE in the way of Military Experience and Weapons to deal with.

I do HOWEVER... feel your limited with the Xenomorph, this Movie could WORK.. but i dont think you can go over and over with the Horror Aspect before the Xenomorph becomes Friday the 13th in Space with a ALIEN MONSTER...

But on the Flip Side... going all out Action as in Military Might vs Xenomorphs is again something i cant see you pulling off OVER and OVER... before we get a more Limited Version of Star Ship Troopers... Unless we have Xeno Evolution and Xeno-Ships then we will have Star Ship Troopers...

For me i think RS was on the Right Track with Prometheus and what he may have wanted to do before he had to "give them F-ing Aliens" as he said..

"the ones that most fans would consider the definitive ALIEN movie."

It really depends on what is meant by this? There are a LOT of Alien Fans across Generations who have Varried views on the Franchise.... from the POPCORN Perspective then ALIENS was the Bigger Hit, its what most remember when you mention ALIEN. The Movie was kind of the Perfect Alien Action Flick.....

We have since seen the ALIEN over and over in Various Platforms, that its something that is a BIT of a Poisoned Chalice.... as the Expectation is High and since ALIENS there have been more MISS than HITS...

The ALIEN Franchise is Synonymous with the Xenomorph and for many you cant have a ALIEN Movie or TV Series or any other related Format (Novel, Game, Comic) that has the ALIEN Prefix and NOT have the Xenomorph.

To a degree this is CORRECT... i mean AVP was ALIEN VS PREDATOR... not XVP as in Xeno vs Predator.... but unless they are Really Clever and can find a way to Uplift/Evolve the Xenomorph then i worry you cant have like 40%+ of a shows Screen Time related to them... before it gets Bland....

So you have to introduce other Aspects..... and some of these may NOT please every Fan but you can NEVER go and please everyone...

For me i think Ridley Scott had the RIGHT IDEA.... there is ONLY so much Face Hugging, Chest Bursting and Snarling that you can do before you have to EVOLVE the Beast..... But the BIGGEST thing i feel RS was Correct with is that Once you have seen the Xenomorph over and over, and KNOW as to HOW they was Created etc..... the BIGGER Question/Threat is WHO would Create such a THING and WHY?

This applies to WHO would TRY to Obtain a Specimen and WHAT would be their Ultimate Agenda... as its THIS which will give the Chest Burster some Legs so to speak.

The Xenomorph as the Ultimate Killer... is Questionable.... they are NO LONGER that Treat they were from ALIEN....   A simple Question.... Terminator vs Alien who would WIN?

As a Bio-Weapon the Xenomorph is Flawed vs other Options that a Advanced Humanoid Race could possess.  But the Xenomorph has the Potential as far as some of its Advantages so its a case of can you CONTROL them and HOW... could you Hybridize them, could you USE some of their Genetics for a Greater Purpose of Military Gain....

So its a CASE of WHO would look to achieve these as the Bigger Plot... and ULTIMATELY their Hubris would be that the Xenomorph can not be Controlled.

I have said this a Number of times before and its just my Opinion, i think your LIMITED to what can be done with the Xenomorph on its own...  The Xenomorph has a Unique Life-Cycle, and Aesthetically its kind of Unique. But alone and if its OUT in the OPEN then it is NOT that Scary.... It sadly becomes like a Zombie Flick to a degree (they are Worse than a Zombie) but we have seen Xenomorphs over and over like Zombie Flicks.... and so they will LOOSE their Effect the more you SHOW them.... unless you UPLIFT or Evolve them....

And so i have to Agree with Thoughts_Dreams on this one.... something else that they OFTEN talk about is Characters... this is KEY!  The Advantage of a TV Series is you can Develop Characters more Efficiently than you can within the Restraints of a 2 Hour Movie.

With a TV Series you cant go and Reveal your Hand too Early and so IF you throw the Xenomorphs into the MIX from like 2 Hours into the TV Series or God Forbid Less, then are they going to keep us Interested by the End of a 8-12EP TV Show?

If you have Hordes of Xenomorphs from say EP 2-3 then they are to Feature in Most of the Episodes its then HOW to you keep a Majority of people Interested if the Story is just going to be about Xenos and them Killing Folk!

The Walking Dead was a Success due to other Factors and Threats and GOOD CHARACTERS..... without them and ONLY to deal with the Zombie Threat then it would just be Repetitive and Boring after a while.  And so Primarily i doubt the Xenomorph alone would Survive the Test of Time of a TV Series if its Over-saturated.

I can't wait

Of course the story needs a copius amount of human characters, thats a given. The xenos alone can't carry an Alien movie. What I was trying to say, the androids need to have a minimal role.

I'm fine with the franchise expanding and including different things, but I'm worried that this will also have too much of the android-story in it. Another AI-tale would make the franchise worse, I believe. This is what happened with the prequels when they became a David-story.

This isn't to say that they got to have Xenos in every scene, but please focus on the human story and limit the android-part. No amount of Xenos will work if we don't care about the characters.