New Replies (Page 621)
I don't know if this is "decent" but it sure is funny. And notice the amputation and self repair, I think it influenced Covenant in how the robots can heal lol
David is also known to lie or manipulate to further his own agenda.
- Well, there are probably as many preferences as there are individuals on Earth. As for earnings, AC has made 231 million dollars worldwide so far in theatres. Add to this Blu-ray/DVD-selling, streaming, collectibles etc and the production companies involved (Fox and others) must have made a pretty good profit? As for the xeno being cooked or not, it’s a question of the recipe for the broth? In my opinion, they should have settled with the neomorph (which in adult form was even scarier than the xeno). Imagine being stalked by that creature through the long corridors of The Covenant. This would also have spared us from the headaches from the “creating issue”. David could have been responsible for creating this monster on his way to recreate the perfect being - the xenomorph (created, or perhaps discovered, by the engineers eons ago).
- On the other hand, Alien was, in fact, a horror and gore movie. To this day, the scene when Kain gives birth to the creature is bloody disgusting :). I think even RS called Alien a B-movie turned into an A-movie? I think AC (which has done pretty good so far) could have been a blockbuster with a couple of changes, for example, a couple in the centre that we in the audience care for, and a more creepy ending in the dark corridors of The Covenant?
- In my view, Spaihts’ script was much better and would have saved all the fans the headaches of Prometheus and AC (although they are not bad) and could, with a couple of changes, turned the resulting movie (perhaps called Alien: Engineers like in the script?) into a blockbuster. RS would then have given the fans what they wanted from the beginning (the script is very creepy and scary) and RS could have developed the engineers, the question of man’s origin (philosophical questions/religious symbolism) as well? The characters in Prometheus were OK but not as good as in Alien (where you felt for all of them in some way). I agree with you, Michelle, that you shouldn’t tell everything in detail but leave some open for imagination (but I don’t want inconsistencies).
By the way, I hope you won’t give up on us here? :) That would be sad.
I give up. UNCLE! I think we need Ati to unravel that deliberately blurry pic!
This is free form silliness since we have been serious for some time. Please adhere to forum rules of basic decency.
Other than that- go for it!
We deserve the consequences of our creations?
Human arrogance and why we shouldn't play god?
A synthetic making it to the end of the movie intact.
I just watched that scene again with the brightness turned up on my tv. All the urns are exactly the same size. I did notice the writing on them is different in one shot. The same shot in Kethol's first screen grab.
From what I can tell, the urns float off the vertical racks of urns stacked in the walls and float through the air to the center of the bomb bay. They line up in concentric circles over the hole in the floor until they drop and hit the shield barrier thing. I guess the urns don't really explode, they just break on the barrier, then the goo atomizes and the small particles slip through.
joylitt Thanks- it is great to see these concepts discussed on the forum!
Ever since we've been introduced to Prometheus, the acts of cruelty, lack of empathy and discrimination he has been subjected to have been clearly highlighted and they are not very different from similar acts affecting human minorities, for instance. In Prometheus, David is subjected to a big embarrassment in front of the crew when he is introduced by Weyland as a surrogate son who lacks a soul and who will never be able to appreciate humanity's spiritual quest. He is mocked by Holloway who tells him that he was created just because humans could do it. Even Shaw would have left him behind if he didn't talk her into taking him with her. In Covenant David reveals how bitter he really is about how he's been treated. He mentions he is not allowed to create. I can think about so many comparisons in society and in politics. Imagine if Albert Einstein had lived in a different political climate and was not allowed to create because as an immigrant he was not welcome in America. Would he have developed the atomic bomb for Germany maybe?
joylitt Well said. How would you imagine' David's interpretation of humanity's kindness or lack thereof to synthetics? Kindness is a human notion much like the concept of morality. Ethics might register better with David?
I Moon Girl Well I think he is comparing two undiscovered worlds" Origae 6 and the synthetics world. Obviously the synthetic world will be humanity's worst nightmare because humans were not kind to them.
I don’t think AI has the same solution solving predictability path as a human which can be way more random.
Thanks for the insights!
The movie might be able to get around the highlighted quote by attributing it to David's lack of up grades? An unforeseen evolutionary step of sorts?
@ joylitt
How does that line lead to a direct connection to David's upbringing if you don't mind explaining that to me?
@ joylitt
Yes, that is a great line. That one really stuck out for me.
The look of the storage room David is in by the opening looks like a place a never saw in Prometheus. Maybe there is structural order to the way they must be released. I guess the big ones are released first so that they have the space to float to the outside and then the smaller ones get released to fill in the middle. That way the urns don't collide as they move around and get into position before exploding.
Thanks for shots Kethol!
I Moon Girl going back to the dog comparison, in the movie David gives us a clear clue of his awareness that he is the product of his "upbringing" when he tells Daniels, referring to Origae 6: "I think if we are kind, it will be a kind world". Actually to me that is the best line in the whole film. It sounds much more genuine than any bombastic Percy Shelley quote.
I take the approach of logical relevance when it comes to AI’s. The most basic programming is based on decisions made by knowing what action to take upon certain criteria, which are programmed criteria. A computer mind has to make decisions based upon the sum total of alternative programmed solutions. A human mind has the ability to create a solution to a problem from a more random framework of thinking. It can create a solution that is not based in prior knowledge and is more willing to just explore a possible solution by going completely off at a tangent and entering a surrealistic interpretation. The AI mind is imo shackled to a methodical approach. The big difference is when a decision has to be made upon what input information is the most relevant. A human can take onboard any information, in any random manner. But can an AI do that? Is an AI more likely going to pursue information that is programmable relevant, rather than a human mind which can take in the irrelevant and make the irrelevant relevant. I think this folly of programming can be used to explain David’s lack of looking more in depth of Daniels cabin in the woods. The AI mind, while explorative, will still keep to a relevant and logical path.
I don’t think AI has the same solution solving predictability path as a human which can be way more random.
I would like to see how things proceed on the AI mind, but it is ultimately predictable.
dk Oh no, I never suggested to make a movie influenced by Assimov. Obviosly the sythetics in the Alien universe are conceived more as automatons, in a way they are offshoots of the human psyque, something more akin to Pinocchio than to an Assimov robot. The formula that you propose sounds fine to me.
joylitt Fair enough. I suggest that the AI can address both philosophical and human condition issues.
dk I think the formula in all of those movies have remained pretty much well balanced, Covenant is the first movie that really alters this balance. Some may find this interesting, but the Box office returns speak for themselves. I would say the first 4 movies and Prometheus have a much bigger share of the human factor, although it was approached from different perspectives. Aliens got a little bit more conventionally warmly human through Ripleys/Newt relationship. Alien 3 and Resurrection have a lot of humanity in them too. The AI element dropped in Alien 3 and spiked again in Resurrection. And Prometheus had a more philosophical approach, which was also very human.
joylitt Asimov! That seems to suggest a lean toward AI exploration?
30% Human element; 20% Xenomorph factor ; 30% Engineers factor; 20 % synthetics factor
I would go as far to suggest 40% Human element; 10% Xenomorph factor ; 25% Engineers factor; 25 % synthetics factor.
I Moon Girl "So, are AI's like dogs? As the saying goes, "There is no such thing as a bad dog. There is only a bad owner." I see a lot of Peter Weyland in David, even though we haven't seen much of Peter Weyland."
This is so true! Weyland was such a bad father and such a bad robotist! Issac Assimov would bash all of his creations with a baseball bat. Do the 3 Laws of robotics ring any bell?
First Law: A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm. A robot must obey orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
In the Assimov universe there were still rogue robots and conflicts with the 3 laws, However there was always someone smart enough to find a fix.
The urns in the first juggernaut in Prometheus are all kinds of different sizes, but the ones we see in the bomb bay room of the ship David and Shaw took seem to be all the same.
The screen shots post so small that is is difficult to see, but they are floating. There is no carriage or rack mechanism to suspend and move them, but something moves them.
In that AVP podcast with Dane Hallett and Matt Hatton they seemed to think this was the urns breaking on the planetary shield described in the script.
joylitt Interesting. How would you apply your formula to the Qudrilogy and Prometheus?
It is time to find a balance. A Good recipe for the next movie would be:
30% Human element; 20% Xenomorph factor ; 30% Engineers factor; 20 % synthetics factor
I think Covenant was 85% synthetics; 5% Humans 10%; xenomorph, neomorph etc; 0.01 % Engineers (trace amount)
Covenant is the most AI centric movie the franchise will ever need. Actually it is an overdose of AI. In the future, the AI dose should be no more than 1/4 of the formula
I Moon Girl Again, interesting points. I did not care for Prometheus, but after AC, I am open to exploring the Engineers' world. I think it could work with exploring the human condition as well if written well.
Phobos was interesting in that Walter did not feel superior since feeling so requires an ego that is a human construct that he doesn't possess.
To paraphrase what you wrote regarding the David 8 model and Weyland- garbage in, garbage out?
I want the Engineers perspective. I want to know why they wanted to kill us and then why they didn't in the end. I also want to just know more about them. I don't want a whole movie filled with the Engineers perspective, but some more info would be great!
The AI perspective is interesting though. I have never thought of AI as thinking they are superior to humans because they never die. That topic is addressed at the intro to A:C too. It is an interesting perspective that I hope meets it's maker to the Engineers in Alien: Awakening. David needs to find out he's not superior just because he was "born" and never "dies". He doesn't understand how lucky some people think he is and he just wants to kill 'em all. He has no compassion for others and he has few morals.
David 8's were taken out of production according to Walter because they made people feel uncomfortable. Apparently there was no complaints of murder or arrogance (The David we know does this). The creative side made the David 8's feel to human to the owners and didn't always follow orders. The David 8's would definitely have to be taken away.
The thing with David's perspective is that it was, in a sense, inherited from Peter Weyland. Weyland had the same attitude as David. As the sayings go, "Like father, like "son"" or... "the apple doesn't fall to far away from the tree."
So, are AI's like dogs? As the saying goes, "There is no such thing as a bad dog. There is only a bad owner." I see a lot of Peter Weyland in David, even though we haven't seen much of Peter Weyland.
I Moon Girl David is lethal, as RS said. IDK that the Engineers know the difference based on appearance alone I wish Walter would have come out victorious. Fingers crossed for the next movie. Most movies have ended badly though.
To the OP- "Identifying who or what created us?"........and why?
@ dk
They may not even know that he is human. Well, looks like a human.
If they know he is a "human", then I think Earth is back on the hit list. If that word gets out to the space jockey Engineers, I think Earth is doomed! I hate David...
@dk
True, but did they have time to see his face. He was really high in the sky too. If Engineers created humans, then they don't have vision to different than humans.
Of course, these points are based on the idea that David and Shaw were arriving to Planet 4. If they were actually leaving Planet 4, then they would have obviously known what he looks like. Then, I could see trust issues for sure.
Is this from the AC blue ray? I haven't seen everything yet.
You may be right, but, as far as we know, that juggernaut came from LV-223, so why would it be different?
Isn't the one found in Prometheus holding different urn sizes?
I can't remember that detail.
Also, Thombach, if you can, take a screen shot of the urns suspended in air if you can!
I would really appreciate it!
I missed that! This looks really good and that's how disappointed I was back then. I will check it out.
'The post industrial aesthetic apparent in their interplanetary vehicles and space suits seem the result of a congruent return to even older and natural forms.'
So the alien ships were not grown...
dk - Yes, that's a deleted scene from Prom.
