Comments (Page 714)

To have an antagonist you need to have someone to antagonize with, that is the problem with Covenant, it lacks that someone.

david makes for a very good antagonist but too much exposure will damage his character. RS needs to spread the weight of the focus more onto the engineers and maybe a side focus on the happenings within the company, maybe a synthetic push for control which would also give more scope to the past alien films

I love Fassbinder and appreciate what he's brought us so far. My problem is with Ridley and his speed race to pump out these films so quickly and not focusing on logical human narrative. In AC the only back and forth human conversation with no Android present is the Oram and Daniels. All the rest just seem like remarks with no real effort to emphasise the human reality/struggle to survive. The sole narrative focus seems to revolve around David and Walter. Scott just can't see the forest through the trees and shoots SO much film that what he gives us in the movie is a shell of what he intended. It's a delicate dance for sure but all human characters just seem so cliche or their narrative/experience is an afterthought. I did really like Farris as she seemed so believable sticking up for whack job husband. On earth Oram would not be allowed to manage a garbage truck route, let alone a colony ship. All the ingredients were there so I see how Fox is confused about "we were so wrong" trusting Ridley to improve the characters this time. The intention was there it just didn't shine through on the screen. Will he perceive AC's flaws and proceed one future day on a lower budget to attempt to build a more positively perceived Alien film? Will Fassbinder take a pay cut to finish out his expedition as either droid? Would love to see David munched by he and Shaw's baby, while Walter comes to rescue the space chimp colonists. Honestly, another director could bring in a new droid and new cast to finish up on Origea6 and still make a spectacular film or another dud. 

IMO and it is just only my own, I think ridley just isn't sure what he wants to do. theres been so many changes of direction from the very start. as im durp said, ridley stated the xeno was done and wanted to show us the other side of the alien universe and 'come in the back door' to tie up with alien. we got Prometheus and I believe a large portion of those who slammed it were more annoyed that ridley changed direction and ditched the whole alien approach with his ideas for the first sequel. it isn't now after AC that id say a large number of these people now see that Prometheus opened many more doors into the franchise than just another monster movie would have that Prometheus is starting to get the respect it probably should have got earlier. fans r fickle beings but not stupid. AC is a badly done movie. no character building, a 'highlights' feel to the pace of the film and just the sheer lack of filling the potential Prometheus laid the foundations for r more than evident in the numbers and reviews. it has been poorly received and that's down to ridley. for me, if he is to somehow pull a rabbit out the hat he needs to step away from having all the focus on david and spread the next film evenly between david and the engineers. they have been completely wasted imo. 15 mins at best in Prometheus and killed off in AC???? in 2 movies they have about 20 mins screen time and they r meant to be the whole point of this 'coming in from the back door' approach ridley had. I would however like RS to explore, as a side ark, the goings on behind the scenes within the company and maybe give us a hint that the synthetics have gained control, that would be good to see for me and would tie into why the humans in the alien films r so expendable and a better understanding of the synthetics role in AR

I don't plan a review since it is long after the fact. I liked it as a stand alone movie, better than Prometheus but as stated elsewhere, I never felt the Quadrilogy needed a prequel. My friend who saw it liked it but only ever saw Aliens and hated Prometheus.

also, the dog alien expanded the universe so much in terms of comics and toy lines

@dk when are we going to see your review of the movie. Or at least your impressions. Where do you rank it among the other Alien movies, what your friends thought about it, etc

If we're just listing the movies in order of preference.

Aliens>Alien>Alien 3>Alien Covenant>Prometheus>Alien Resurrection

If we throw in the AVP movies the first one is between A3 and Prometheus, AVPR is dead last.

joylitt That is a good point, but I also think it would be a mistake to cut David out all together. There has to be a balance so it doesn't become all about him. Some argued that the Quadrilogy became the story of Ripley and didn't like that aspect of the movies.

this is pretty much the order of the alien films for me. best to worst.

1: alien 1979. it is a perfect movie. it is the best movie ever made in my opinion and it could not be better.

2: alien 3: although I liked it slightly less than alien, I really can't understand why any real fan of the alien franchise would dislike it. killing of newt and hicks that the alien universe is unpredictible and fair. also the religious context is amazing. ( assembally cut even better)

3: covenant. there were definatly some flaws but the neomorphs were awesome, david and walter were great, and so was the acting. My only huge issue was that it was way to short and should have built more suspense. 

4: prometheous. its an amazing looking film that took alot of risks not showing the aliens at all, probably expanded the universe even more than aliens but the chareters were really stupid and I did want too see just a bit more with the engineers and the deacon.

5: aliens. I do not consider this a bad film, it just dosn't fit the tone of the series. it reduses the aliens to shoot um ups and fammilierizes their species.

6: alien ressurection. As far as i am consered it dosent exist and is a high bujet fan movie.

david needs to be in the prequels and is a good antagonist who actually makes some good points while  bringing some philisophical questions to the table. I do think that once the prequels are done, they should have the weyland corporation an actually antagonist rather than just a driving force of evil. perhaps a cheif science executive at the corp whos ambition drives him crazy until he goes as far as to kidnap civilians and use them as xenomorphs host. I have a very similar villain in my alien isolation fan movie trilogy I am working on.

What is important is to remember not to send mixed messages. The reason why David was so important in Covenant is because everybody agreed on one thing: Michael Fassbender was great in Prometheus. I hope the studios understand that praising Fassbender does not mean everybody wants to see him as a protagonist.

I think we are missing the point of what the guy says on the video. I am not sure how reliable his sources are, but he suggests the "soft reboot" will be a return to the roots, with less emphasis on the AI.

Bring in Martin Freeman to play a young Ash..... oh wait XD

They need to back out of that "David created the xenomorph" nonsense. That is a franchise killing idea.

I have a theory that BigDave is Mr H ;p

He needs to win to some degree since the Xenos I guess he created now are what we find in Alien getting transported somewhere.

It's like watching the SW prequels, you know the bad guys will win this round and the good guys will need to recoup and come back with and win in Alien and Aliens.

I would think David's story arc is incomplete and having the bad guy win would be interesting. I would only hope David wouldn't become a caricature of himself like Freddy Kruger. 

We've 2 movies in where David is the only connecting point. Taking him out would be a horrible idea at this point, just finish up these prequels and try to work with it.

I Moon Girl  I agree with your thoughts. Totally eliminating David would be as bad as killing off Elizabeth Shaw. But he needs a better human counterpart. However, I have the impression Fox is going to do something much more drastic if they thing they cannot successfully market a movie where David is the main attraction.

ALIEN,Covenant,Alien 3,Aliens....Didn't like Ressurection at all.

The next film not having David in it would be stupid; he is the main character of the prequels!

I thought the characters in Covenant behaved more realistically than those in Prometheus.

I saved the questions from the original project if interested. I think it was 1-3 minutes per answer with a 30 second minimum. Not saying it has to be this way but here were the questions:

1) Describe your most elaborate fan theory relevant to the Alien universe.

2) Describe any dreams you have had relating to the Alien universe.

3) Explain any of your personal interpretations of the Alien       franchise (i.e. philosophy).

4) Describe the most entertaining (weird, scary, funny, etc.)     experience you've had watching an Alien film.

I guess with David gone, it would be easy to write something new.  It would also allow something fresh for the people who don't want to see David putting the eggs on the derelict. 

I think it's to late to remove David.  If they did, that means they can't think of anything else to do with him that would make a good movie.

Yet, Alien: Covenant was really different than Prometheus and David was a huge part of both movies.

I honestly really don't care what they do as long as the Xeno is scary as $h!t, like it should be.  The Xeno wasn't scary in Alien: Covenant and that was the first time we have seen it since Alien: Resurrection.  They were scarier in Alien: Resurrection might I add.

I also want more philosophical Engineer stuff like in Prometheus.  Not to much, but just some more.

I also want it to be different than Prometheus and Alien: Covenant.

My wants may change as time goes on though and as I re-watch Alien-Covenant.

Lawrence of Arabia you make an interesting point

"I'm tired of the good guy winning and we've seen enough of that."

This is perhaps why Game of Thrones is so popular today. The shock and outrage over a good character not saving the day is infectious. 

Builds the suspense and antipication for when the bad character finally loses. not the good character wins. Important difference

Yes, that's a possibility too, with the high bio-tech of the Engineers. We humans today, already clone sheep and genetically alter our livestock and have the early-stage technologies to even genetically edit human embryos. The last one is only stopped by our regulatory framework with moralistic/religious underpinnings.

An alien civilization eons ahead of us and spread among the stars, may not have such "primitive" inhibitions, if I may say so.

And yes, the (race/faction/group) of Engineers on Paradise planet (your termed Planet 4?) could possibly have been cultivated (or exploited?) for the (other race/faction/group) of Engineers for use in seeding planets.

On Earth, humans in the industrialized countries heavily exploit those in the poorer countries too, so it is not too difficult to imagine Engineers "breeding" a certain kind for the purposes of another group/faction/races.

However, IMHO, it is more likely (although unprovable until future movies tell all), that their high bio-tech could have easily clone an Engineer and grown a full-size adult for use in the sacrificial seeding. They obviously knew how to make things grow very rapidly in a matter of hours.

Thus, my thinking is its probably not efficient to allow the "breeding" or "farming" a whole bunch of Engineers on Paradise planet and then occasionally popping back in, to pick up 1 or 2 for sacrificial seeding. Furthermore, as per my point 9), these primitive Engineers have housing and buildings but not any flying machines. If the higher (race/faction/group of) blue-skin Engineers were really "breeding" them, then they would also need to have some means to actively suppress their technological development between each rare (thousand year interval?) return visit. I mean, humans took less than 70 years from the paper planes of Wright Brothers to sending man on the Moon. If these primitive Engineers were left to their own devices for a thousand years, they could probably be building FTL spaceships and laser weaponry by the time the other (faction/group/race of) Engineers return once again. David would then probably be shot down before he even gets a chance to dock with that station.

Of course, we could postulate that somehow these Engineers on Planet 4/Paradise planet are purposely made to be imbeciles, but that would be stretching it without proper evidential support.

Apologies for writing my pet theory in all its gory details, in such big chunks. As with starting a jigsaw, I had to give sufficiently broad context with large enough joined pieces (that fit together) so that others can start to "see" the picture. If I had given it in 2 pieces of jigsaw at a time, it would be difficult to see anything but vague disparate ideas. I tend to be like Sherlock Holmes investigating a crime scene whenever I watch Sci-fi movies, cutting it with Occam's razor and forming pet theories logically, which is why most people do not like to watch movies with me. lol.

Then, the others can fit in their pieces to make sense of the entire Alien series. Of course, all of the pieces has to fit nicely (i.e. be logical and consistent) at that point.

If future stories, (at least the official "Canon" and not from some self-published comics), are made with Engineers bristling with weapons and engaging in some kind of organized star wars, then of course, my point 3) and possibly others, would then be invalidated. And new pieces of jigsaw would need to be created and/or others pieces moved around.

Until then, your ideas works too, but does not detract from the overall pet theory, in that we expect to have different races/factions/groups of these Engineers, in order for the current story to be plausible.

I have some doubts on two of your points though. Which is that the Engineers on Paradise planet were bred for the sacrifice. As explained, its too inefficient and too much hassle to suppress a large group who can potentially revolt, instead of just doing bio-tech and grow the "body" as needed in some vat. After all, these Engineers are master bio-tech manipulators. Unless, for some unknown reason, they needed "imbeciles" to grow in naturally in large numbers so that they have the physiological X-factor, I mentioned in Point 7) and which is needed to properly interact with the black goo.

Secondly, with the hundreds of billions of stars in our galaxies and the countless galaxies out there, I think the probability of no species, other than humans and blue-skin Engineers, having flying machines is very very unlikely. As mentioned, humans took only 70 years from paper planes to the Moon. Yes, we took maybe like 50,000 years from stone tools to paper planes, but in geological and universal time spans, this is just a blink of an eye. I tend to go with ideas on the rise and fall of civilizations simply because there is so much time for bad things to eventually happen. It is like us humans facing thermo-nuclear war, global warming, another Black Death, Yellowstone eruption, or a nearby star going supernova etc. Given enough time, some of these WILL happen by accident or by some Crazies among us.....oh, its so depressing.

Thanks for your inputs, I do appreciate your ideas and welcome more critique of the pet theory. Its just a well-thought theory, but it is still just a theory, not dogmatic "Canon".

But each chapter has to go into the next. Just having David doesn't justify the two hours we went on with Prometheus, and the origins to the Xeno, you could have just had the opening scene in A:C if you wanted to establish David, since that justifies what he does more than anything we see in Prometheus. This was the movie that brought the Xeno in and the origin is very haphazard to the average viewer. 

I'm not saying they don't connect at all they do, but almost in a lesser degree than even the Star Wars prequels connect. You need more than characters you need the things you did to actually effect the things in the next movie, and the things that connect are loose at best. Shaw went through a whole experience and goes to see why the Engineers acted like that. Que A:C now David kills them all, and makes a Xeno, Shaw's dead, so what was the point of Prometheus? Why make that chapter? 

I think it would be a terrible idea but I'm sure you knew that, which is why you posted a two day old video by two guys who don't work at Fox. If the plan was for one more film, why is it stated by THR that they are 'reassessing' the two proposed films? Who are these sources? The series hasn't had a good antagonist and David fills that role well. I'm tired of the good guy winning and we've seen enough of that.

You're looking at the narrative too rigidly. Each film is another chapter with another goal. While not the same they still intersect, one wouldn't exist without the other. This is David's story, not Shaw's. She still serves an important role, she has a place in David's "heart" and ultimately gives birth to the Xenomorph.

"The Xenomorphs represent unsympathetic, unwavering death - not Evil, which is arguably worse as an objective evil would imply an objective good. Instead we are faced with chaos, and an abyss filled with violence. Paradise is lost."

I'd just like to say how spot on most of these predictions are and I love how you all have picked up the slight hints and nuances in the meet walter promotion.

differences of opinion/interpretation are a good thing. Forums like this would be very boring if we all agreed with everything.

But please brothers don't attack each other, attack the opinion.

 Hey im with you i thought i was the only one who love alien covenant and prometheus,  they both with alien are my favorites, yes i kinda like alien 3 and alien resurection a little , and really like aliens but i think is overrated to.  

Creation and destruction are the themes maybe but I wouldn't say narrative. Right now depending on where the 3rd movie goes either Covenant or Prometheus will feel very out of place in these prequels. 

As for Xenos being indifferent and that being worse than evil, we'll just have to disagree on that subject since I don't agree with it in any way. 

The answers to questions may be alluring, but if the execution on those answers is not done well than it's not really worth it.

Im Durp "Now apparently we're going back to engineers for the third movie so what was the point of the second?" You nailed it there. The answer is no point apart from telling you that David created the xenomorph. And the most frustrating part is that the characters did not learn absolutely anything about what's going on. I believe a trilogy should have worked if each chapter had a very different style and setup. The second movie could have taken place on the Engineers planet and featured Elizabeth Shaw; imagine if this movie was something like "Arrival" in reverse, where a human is an object of study, and where we learn more about Xeno mythology. A movie like this could be 2/3 mystery/ suspense, 1/3 horror. Then we can have a 3rd installment built more like an espionage thriller, with Weyland Yutani at the center. This could be 1/3 action, 1/3 suspense, 1/3 horror. This one should connect directly to the first Alien, but without ruining the fundamental nature of the Alien. Finally, I guess it would have been nice if the movies were shot back to back. That could have saved money and help make a more cohesive whole.

Lawrence of Arabia - I thank you!!!

Joylitt --- It is not the first time that you try to bully me suggesting that I suggest that you should be banned from this forum. As for attacking Daszkowski, I never did such a thing. Daszkowski was kindly asked to change his topic title which was misleading and false. I actually take offence when someone tries to share fake pieces of news attempting to manipulate others. Plus, I do not share download links of poor quality copies before official blu-ray release dates either. You cannot make everybody think like you, man.

The Narrative, imo, is about creation and destruction and Covenant follows that. Prometheus was about finding our creators and knowing our place in the universe and Covenant slams that door shut. David found humanity's creator and deemed them unfit to be gods as they are 'mortal' like us. He develops a god complex and starts to create his own lifeforms, the Xenomorphs. The Xenomorphs isn't evil but indifferent, something worse than evil. Covenant is the film to re-introduce the Xenos and, in a way, I'm glad they brought them in sooner so we can see the Engineers reaction to all this.

As someone relatively new to the franchise, those were questions I had and, like Ridley, couldn't understand why nobody asked them. I understand the mystery of it all is alluring but these answers are just as enriching imo.

The narrative went from finding our creators, then gets scrapped almost instantly once Covenant starts with David killing the only other group we see and now we're making Xenos. When Ripley first started this I believe he said we wouldn't even see a xeno till the third one, then we got pretty much a whole second movie about them.

Now apparently we're going back to engineers for the third movie so what was the point of the second? This narrative is very strange anyway you look at it.

Granted I think doing a whole trilogy for Alien prequels was a little much to begin with, I didn't personally care that much about the space jockey, or the eggs the mystery behind them was fun, now two movies in we have no idea how that started.

I don't see how the narrative was strange. Prometheus was David's story and Covenant continues that. I think a lot of people assumed the film was about Shaw, she was a main character but David was the star. I don't think one film will be enough to tell the story properly but we'll see. Ripley gets four films, David should get just as many.