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Finally a good treatment of the Big Chap.
Maybe you should not make it available to fans yet, but send it to Disney, perhaps they could dare to plan for the next film or tv series.
For the moment thay seem clueless on where to thke the franchise
sounds good, look forward to it :)
Well, technically, there is no xenomorph in the Covenant. David created a promomorph that is so known as the praetomorph.
>>>I think we overlook HOW HARD it is to take David and Dr Shaw to MEET some Engineers, and then BRING IN some more Humans into Play!
>>>But thats down to the Limits of the Imaginations of those Working on the Project.
No. The main problem is the budget. That is why the shooting took place in the forest, instead of creating expensive alien decorations. This is why the expedition did not wear spacesuits on the planet's surface. This is why the Engineers were cheap.
>>>getting our Engineers back
Or maybe the classic Space Jockey?!
Think i will BUMP this Thread.
I know that MOST people had NOT enjoyed Alien Covenant and that it was NOT what they Expected from a Prometheus Sequel.
So ONCE again let see HOW or WHAT some of you would have Preferred.
Looking at the SET-UP as we have David and Dr Shaw on a Engineer Ship and WHERE do they GO NEXT and what do they Discover?
We maybe have to BARE in Mind that we can Assume that Dr Shaw needed David to be Put Back together in Order to GO where she Wanted.... BUT once he is back together then he can GO TO wherever he Wants....
He could have gone to Earth and Destroyed Mankind but we know thats not the Case because well the Earth is in ONCE Piece at the Time of ALIENS.
But it does-not mean that David would have to go to the Engineers Home-world. We can Assume Dr Shaw is in Cryo-sleep and so David can go to where ever he wants.
*So where does David take Dr Shaw?
*What do they Discover where they Go?
What would you have liked to have Seen and Discovered in a Prometheus Sequel?
To go back to the OT
Because well the Prequels are Broken maybe Beyond Repair, what Fans would WANT from a Continuation would be more about the Engineers (Aggressive SOB LV-223 kind) they would want something to SHOW that David could NOT have Created the Xenomorph, and a Fair Share would want David out of the Picture in General.
So for DISNEY if they want to make another ALIEN Movie then they would NOT want to take Risks and to TRY and FIX or Continue with the Alien Covenant Arc would be a RISK.
If you was to at RANDOM go and ask 1 Millions People about ALIEN... those who would Remember the Movie would Remember it for the Xenomorph, many would also remember ALIENS and so i would say a High % of those who remember the Franchise would Associate it with Xenomorph, Queen and RIPLEY.
Now if you ask ALIEN Fans... they would Associate other Elements too, but in General then ALIEN is Synonymous with Ripley and Xenomorphs.
Blomkamps Alien V seemed to Recognize this.... The Walter Hill and David Giler version of Alien V seems also about these.
Myself its just a Fan Service.... lets UNDO what we are NOT really Happy with.....
Ripley is...... DEAD they need to Move on unless they wish to Continue from Ripley 8.
But the Xenomorph can be Resurrected, but i think you are LIMITED to Queen and Egg over and over, unless you Evolve/Change either their Aesthetic or Evolve/Uplift their Purpose and Ability... rather than being just like Space Termites.
The Prequels with Prometheus had OPENED UP the Franchise but its HOW do you do a Unconnected Movie and Cover some of what the Prequels offered?
Are the ENGINEERS now DONE WITH?
Does the Black Goo not even EXIST?
You could go to a World where we have something similar or even Xenomorphs but then i think you have to leave some Connections to Prometheus, so that you could Explore the Engineers again at a Latter Time and Horrors that are Similar but i doubt it.
I FEAR the Franchise under Disney would become Starship Troopers with Xenomorphs...... You may have more chance of seeing Predators introduced than getting our Engineers back :(
Regarding the Changes...
I have said this Quite a LOT, there are Fans who had Expected more from Prometheus and was Disapointed, and NOT all of them was because of NO Xenomorphs, but quite a Share was because the LACK of Clues, and there was NOTHING that Replaced the Xenomorph.
YES as a Movie Prometheus had some Bad Characters and Silly things, and i think some Fans had Accepted what RS had said in that THIS is NOT going to be a ALIEN Movie.
When some of the Fans who would use the Internet to Discus the First Movie (Prometheus) had seen the Release of the Unused Concepts then a Majority of People felt Disappointed that some of these NEVER made it to the Movie. When people saw Alien Engineers then a LOT of them saw THIS was the better Prequel Story
I do think the Anticipation and Excitement at Alien V had also made those working at FOX go and think that they NEED to bring in the Xenomorph and its Origins.
THEY was Mistaken...
IF the Source i had was Correct/True then they had Envisioned to give us TWO Monsters that we could Connect with the Xenomorph but would NOT have been the Xenomorph
Showing us HOW these came to be and that THEY are similar to the Xenomorph would surely give Fans more Clues to know that LV-223/LV-426 were Connected.
The Source had given some Details on the Appearance of these Monsters but in a Vague way.... they claimed that ONE would be Based on the Necronom 4 and the other the Original Design of Alien but both are NOT the Xenomorph.
One would be Transparent and Light in Color, the other Would be similar to the Xenomorph. One would have somewhat Eyes... the other would have NONE. One has kind of Dorsal Tubes but different the other has Spines/Spikes. There was a Few more Details... i have to try and go and Check some my Old PM.
But ONE was a Creation of David....
And i think that its a Shame because they could have had David Create something that was MORE Different to the Xenomorph and it would STILL have Fitted his ARC.
I do think that Dr Shaw should have at least had 40 Min worth of Screen Time, but when your looking at the Covenant Plot with Incoming Humans then Sacrifices had to be made and the Engineers and Dr Shaw got the CHOP!
I think we overlook HOW HARD it is to take David and Dr Shaw to MEET some Engineers, and then BRING IN some more Humans into Play!
But thats down to the Limits of the Imaginations of those Working on the Project. Humans = Earth.... NO it does not have to ;)
"Despite the fact that all the changes for Prometheus and the rejection of xeno were made precisely in order to tell in detail about the Engineers."
I think that is the Real Shame about what Happened during the U-Turn that led to Alien Covenant, i will say HOWEVER that when we hear from RS i do get the Impression the Addition of the Xenomorph was FORCED onto him by FOX
I think its a Shame that we NEVER got to see more of the Engineers but then WHEN you look at all that AC had to try and Squeeze into a Typical 120-150 Min of Screen Time, it a case of WHERE and HOW did you FIT more Time for the Engineers? The Xenomorph Gestation had to be Speed up for Sakes of Convenience due to Limited Running Time.
Unfortunately the PLOT is a bit of a Poisoned Chalice, and when you want to GIVE more Engineers and have Humans come to a Place where they would be then its Going to be Hard to Pull It Off..... depending on the Number of Engineers and HOW they would FEEL about Humans turning up.
Angry Engineers and especially the Prometheus Kind on a World with Vast Technology in Large Numbers with Humans never mind say a Colonial Marines Ship with 100 Marines turning up would just be a Genocide to the Humans.
The PLOT i would have gone for would have been to SHOW us a Paradise that is LOST... a World in Ruin.... and David and Dr Shaw could Discover a Handful of Survivors... that look LESS like the Prometheus Engineers.
Reveal those Engineers were a Sub-Creation who Rebelled against the Elders, attempted to Destroy them, and then they Attempted to GET our Species to Worship them... but we Rebelled and so the Engineers attempted to Destroy us.. But the Original Engineers from Paradise had made a Last Ditch Effort to STOP them (LV-223) and Caused the Outbreak.
I think then you have it that they was Concerned with David for the same reasons they Feared/Regretted the LV-223 Types, and we have David then Unleash the Pathogen on them.
"What concepts are left for the Alien series?"
Thats a Good Point....
Not much to Really think about as a LOT has been Covered in the Franchise.
Apart from....... Interdimensional/Extradimensional Horrors/Beings ;)
Lots of ideas and concepts we discussed on this forum have made their way into the Raised by Wolves series such as colonization of a desolate planet, crash landing of a spaceship, prehistoric flora and fauna, rouge androids, android cut open for surgery, replacing parts of android, remains of an ancient civilization etc. And it is not over yet.
What concepts are left for the Alien series?
Xenomorph displayed at the Giger Museum.
@Hox A Xenomorph should teach you a lesson.
Leto we had a lot stupid characters in Aliens, but nobody complains about it. In fact, it had only stupid characters, even Ripley had her most stupid role in that film of all quadrilogy.
In Prometheus, yes, the characters were stupid and extremely superficial, but then look around and look around again after 10 years and you will see people dumbing down irreversibly generation after generation, that is the future of mankind.
I do not agree the characters in Covenant were stupid, for the screen time they got, there were some good performances, except maybe for the Smollet family.
For the decision to change direction from Prometheus to Covenant, yes, I blame the fans, their reaction and comments made the studios to shift from Engineers to Xenomorphs. Not all the fans, of course, only the Blomkamps Alien 5 or the more recent Giller/Hill Alien V, both of them bringing back Ripley and a lot of xenomorphs.
Ridley had a hard time trying to reinvent the wheel with so much pressure and whining around and such a miserable script for Prometheus. Covenant script was a lot better, tell me a better script in all franchise. And he had a good creative team in Dane Hallett & co.
>>>Low and Behold in 2017 we saw some Concepts for Alien Covenant that was by TWO different Artist that Featured beings who looked... HUMAN!
No. The arms are very long.
Whatever. It didn't matter how far Scott wanted to get away from xeno. By itself, the story about the cosmic variations of people sounds like what we have seen many times in different films and shows.
Ridley could have left an interesting bait in Prometheus, but he chose to avoid talking about the Engineers. Despite the fact that all the changes for Prometheus and the rejection of xeno were made precisely in order to tell in detail about the Engineers.
As I said earlier, Scott buried his promising Space Gardeners himself. It was neither Fox nor xeno, not even Filthy Alien Fans. Especially the last one - thinking that the fans were upset with the lack of xeno in Prometheus - that seems to be just your thoughts. The viewers were fine without xeno on the screen. Want to know what people weren't okay with? Stupid characters! And so in the Covenant we got ... stupid characters! Who is to blame - xeno or fans?
Much appreciated and TY!! I was wondering what was going on.
One more week, and right now I spend most of my time looking over my glasses rather than through them, which I do ONLY when I absolutely need to, as it's like an icepick between the eyes and into the midbrain.
I'll be as careful as I can, and TY for the concern! (HUG)
"maybe the Engineers would take some and try to engineer them to get rid of the bad sides that mankind has?"
I think what it BOILS down to is to look at WHY was we deemed a Mistake?
Was it Genetically we Never Turned out right? But then for a Race of Advanced Beings who must be Experts in Genetics then they could take a Human to get Embyo's and Evolve us.
But i think the MAIN Problem was HOW we Behaved... that caused a Concern. This is where the THEMES come into Play.
If we look at Many Mythos, then the Problem of Sub-Creation and Mankind is via Virtue of being able to have FREE-WILL and become Sentient, and then be able to be Influenced in ways and Choose our Own Ways that would NOT be how our Creators would have wanted.
so it kind of comes down to like we saw with ADAM and EVE. And so say a David would have been like a Walter if it was NOT for the Extra Free-Will he was Given, and so with ADAM before he ATE the Forbidden Fruit he was NOT Fallen, and so would have had LESS FREE-WILL and been 100% Obedient to GOD.
And so for the Engineers all they would have had to do was to TAKE some Children or Embryo's of Humans to another World and RAISE them how they wanted, these Humans would have NO KNOWLEDGE of Mankind on Earth or the Influences that Shaped us to NOT see the Engineers as Gods.
But eventually after Many Many Generations, Thousands of Years then the same Problems with HOW we would behave could RISE again.... as it did to Mankind after the Food and Noah.
I think in Context to the Franchise as far as the Potential for other Worlds then there could be MANY Different Humanoids and some could be Actually the same as Mankind.
"That might have been interesting but I would liked to have seen less of Shaw in a movie like that."
Well she is DEAD now lol... but the kind of Plot could still work as its Basis is about there being another World in the Galaxy that has Humans on it, who had been on this World for Thousands of Years.
"I don't think there was any kind of plan, other than a little rough draft with ideas for Prometheus 2"
Well apparently they had done 8 Drafts by October 2014, but through the Development they was STRUGGLING with a Story, because when you LOOK at the Plot and HOW Bold it was its HARD to think how you Expand on this.
Then we got Blomkamp leaking his Idea for ALIEN V and Miss Weaver then Praising it and this seemed to DRUM up a Lot of Interest in ALIEN V and it seemed at this Time that Fans were a BIT disappointed with Prometheus.
You was basically having to Create a Sequel that would STEER AWAY from Xenomorphs that would cover some what of Dr Shaws Quest for Answers, Davids Arc and MEET some beings (Engineers or their Creators) who are NOT gonna be Friendly. And so thats a HARD PLOT to work out as FAR as it depended on HOW MANY of the Engineers are on their Home-world and HOW would they react to David and Dr Shaw.
So you have just a SINGLE Human Character accompanied by David the Robot who she may be Foolish to Trust and they are going to TURN UP at a World of beings who will NOT take too kindly to UNINVITED GUESTS....
So Finding the RIGHT story to execute around such a Journey was Hard.
Having NOT came up with a Story that RS and FOX were 100% Pleased with, and IN LIGHT of the Excitement about Blomkamps Alien V, it seemed at First they would want to PUSH BACK the Alien V and make RS a Producer so that it would NOT clash with what RS had intended for the Prequels.
It is likely at this Point we had Work on the Earlier Paradise Lost....
Before then THEY decided to abandon ALIEN V and introduce the Xenomorph and Origins into a Prometheus Sequel which would then become the 2nd Generation Paradise Lost... Now Called ALIEN: Paradise Lost.... which then latter Evolved into Alien Covenant.
I would assume that IF we saw that Blomkamp had NEVER released Concepts and Talked about his ALIEN V then i think we would have had a Prometheus 2 once they had Found the RIGHT way to Carry on.
"Dangerous to who? How is he dangerous?"
Dangerous as far as he KNOWS the Engineers Secrets and can USE their Technology and ONCE he is Reassembled then Dr Shaw and the Juggernaught are to the WHIMS of David.
David could FEED any kind of Lies to Dr Shaw and Once he is back together then he could Basically do what he wanted, go where he Wanted... We Certainly saw what Danger he was in Alien Covenant.
I think we had to remember that ONCE he had been Fixed then Basically he was in CONTROL... Dr Shaw was just in for the Ride... and so you would always then have to LOOK at what would be Davids Agenda and WHAT would he want to do.
Again the Process from Prometheus to Alien Covenant had gone through Changes and Evolved, but it would seem a LOT would have been about WHAT it is that David does. What LEVEL of Screen Time that Dr Shaw had is Unknown, we would have NO real Answer to that UNLESS some of the Earlier Drafts came to Light.
The Source i had claimed her ROLE was Important to the Plot, but she did-not Feature too much, only as FAR as mainly Davids Agenda to CREATE. They seemed to indicate that Davids Agenda to Create played a Large Role and he would Create ONE of the TWO Monsters that would appear and it implied that Dr Shaw played a Big Role in its Creation... but it was NOT the Xenomorph at this Point.
@Thoughts_Dreams
I will add that the Engineers had GONE through a Number of Changes with their Plot/Background from at Inception a Race who had Engineered themselves to a POINT they had LOST the ability to Procreate. To then Shortly after Prometheus that they COULD indeed Procreate but they had CHOSEN to NOT do so, but USE other means to Create.
When we get to Alien Covenant then its likely the IDEA behind those LV-223 Engineers had Changed. Those Planet 4 Engineers were NOT a Mistake they was INTENDED to look how they did.
What we have at Very Least are the Civilians of the Engineers (Planet 4) and the LV-223 kind being Genetically Enhanced Soldiers... i would be DRAWN to them being to the Engineers on Planet 4 what the Replicants are to Mankind.
The thing is though is that RS does have a Habit of NOT quite being 100% about what he says as he can Contradict himself a bit. The Source i had did indicate there is a Curve-ball regarding the Engineers and relation to the Elders. And the Engineers are NOT at all Gods or the Hierarchy. They never Gave any Details to WHO those above the Engineers were, but they merely said that Mankind are the 4th/5th Generation of Humans, but it seemed they said the Revelation of those Engineers Role and WHO had Created them is a Curve-Ball.
Again i cant say the Source was True... its only if we ever see the Drafts from August-October 2014 that would Confirm or Conflict what they said.
So Who Created Them? maybe if that Answer was US! then that would have been a Curve-ball. I think something to Consider is RS had said that the Sacrificial Scene in Prometheus does-not have to be Earth and so it means it does-not have to show it was Millions of Years ago either.
So i was kind of Wondering if the Source was hinting that the Creators of the Engineers would be much more like Humans and indeed those in Prometheus are Engineered Creations.
Low and Behold in 2017 we saw some Concepts for Alien Covenant that was by TWO different Artist that Featured beings who looked... HUMAN!
I struggled just once to watch AVPR and only until the scenes with the pregnant women (a lot of patience involved), after that I simply deleted this crap from my computer (had it as digital copy).
I can't think of a more shitty film, even The Predator was better.
Blackwinter-witch signatures not showing up in the comments to news page, only in the forum section. So editing is not possible here for some reason.
Take care and get your good glasses soon , until then avoid any bad glasses as they can do more harm.
BD
"those Prometheus Engineers are NOT too Different to David."
Maybe, but there he goes again to try to affect the story in a bad way. Keep him away from the narrative. I don't care if says that they are not too far from David, I would rather have them being like soldiers and if they are supposed to show us more Engineers then they should show them also other than to just push them to the side. Not to say that it should just have been about them but they needed to show us both but that they might have different roles in the Engineer society, that would have been great to see. To me they looked awesome and I think that what he tries to do is to reduce their role which to me is just boring and also trying to bring David into it. Please stop bringing David into everything and ruin the prequels with shitty ideas (aimed at Scott, not you BD).
I think that Prometheus was interesting because they different routes that it could have developed into. Unfortunately the way that they went was. . . bad. Maybe the answers were there in Prometheus but they could have been expanded on in the next movie, a movie with better human characters (including an improved Shaw) and more about the Engineers.
"And also KEY points in the SET-UP was that ONCE we have David back in ONE piece then he becomes Dangerous and that he would be BRINGING HELL with him."
I remember that one, but it could have been better developed in AC. In AC everything is about him and he is a robot-Hitler. Dangerous to who? How is he dangerous? Are there people that he doesn't want to kill? How would they be? They should have had more about the Engineers and how they look at us and have less about David. How would he bring hell? Against who and what means would he use? I would rather have seen a humans against Engineers versus maybe David kind of movie not one that is just about an android but where the humans and Engineers are important as well. Not to say that a story like this would have been easy to write and come off in a smart way but it could have been better. You need writers that know what they do and what is important and a director that isn't in crappy-land. Unfortunately I'm not sure if they had what it took when they made Covenant, enough to get a good movie because obviously they didn't. I don't think that we should have had as many complaints if they would have had a better story and characters (not perfect but better).
"We cant be 100% sure what we would have got, we would need to see some of Paglens Drafts and the Green Rewrites to get a Idea of WHERE a Prometheus 2 was going before FOX had wanted to bring in the Xenomorph and make a Direct Prequel to ALIEN as opposed to STEER AWAY as First intended in 2012-2014"
That would be interesting to see if the script was that different compared to before they threw the Xeno into it or if it was as bad compared to what we got. Sometimes good parts can be thrown away in a movie compared to the script (the prequels) but sometimes the script is a problem in itself because it just isn't good. Maybe it was a bit of both in AC and Prometheus, scripts that lacked and too much that was cut out.
Maybe we could have had a colonization in space with a battle on a planet between humans and the Engineers where the Engineers used Xenos as weapons while having other ones also. David could be a problem but have a lesser role. We would never know how it ended so that could have been a mystery also we would never know if they made it to earth ("if we won't stop it there will be no place to go home to", or similar would make so much sense then). Humans versus Xenos and Engineers would be the main idea, not sure how you could get that right though but it seems interesting and at least better than Covenant and David. I doubt that I am a writer but I have ideas.
Alien Lockdown I like the title, it is fitting for these times.
12 hour shifts seems like a very tough thing to go through.
I'm looking forward to see the logo, fonts etcetera.
I can't believe that I didn't find this one earlier. :D
How about this? AVPR is so bad so my computer exploded when I pressed play (OK not really but you get the idea).
Every true alien-fan must crap at it at least once during their life-time. If you don't you will be turned into an extra in AVPR. ;)
Anyone else that wants to have a go at this? Look at it as being a chance to show your creativity when it comes to come up with insults against crappy movies.
Having a rule-book might be a good idea, it depends on what they have as guide-lines. I think that it is alright to allow some artistic freedom so we won't get a repetition. Wouldn't that disagreement among fans be because they have tried different things with various results? Maybe there would be less discussions and disagreements if they would have been better. Not to say that disagreements always got to be bad, it depends on what causes the disagreement. For example there is a difference between saying that "oh I wish that they would have made the Xeno a bit more like this" compared to "You like the look of the Xeno? I think that it looks like crap." If there are small disagreements then it means that they probably have done more things right compared to if there are two sides that disagree very much.
I am not sure if they need to reboot the franchise. Maybe reboot the prequels since they have failed IMO, but I like the idea of the Engineers so that could be kept. Hopefully Scott won't be around then and they have someone that understands that they need well done human characters. The original three are good but AR is a disappointment to say the least.
Yup, I would like to see how the other planets that they have seeded with life look like. Maybe they look different just like how you can do different paintings. Remember the different planets in Star Wars, who's to say that the Alien franchise can't have similar things? They got to have smart writers and stories to pull this off and also have a good director that understand his or her limits (subtle dig).
Having the SJ and the Engineers to be the same seems tricky at least with how they have treated the Engineers this far. They could be related like a cat and a tiger, not the same but not far from each other.
"I think it depends on WHAT Source you look at, Certainly Prometheus had other Problems and it was NOT that it Disappointed because it had NO Xenomorphs... some Fans was UPSET that it was not a ALIENY kind of Movie."
Maybe, but at least we can say that adding the Xeno to AC didn't improve it.
"FOX had deemed that NOT having the Xenomorph was a mistake…"
I think that they misunderstood the situation. At least they needed to correct more than to just throw the Xeno into the movie. What you say about Blomkamp makes sense but I am not sure if people were excited about it just for the Xenos, maybe they thought that they would get better characters in his movie. Eventually both reasons played a role in it.
"When looking at the Engineers Plot its likely they had Created other Humanoids, but i think you would have to have some look Very Human to have us make a Connection with them."
Yeah, but at the same time we could see a little from different planets. Humanoids on planet X might look different from humanoids on planet Y. To show both could be a way to show how the Engineers create different things.
David was interesting in Prometheus but I would rather not have him in Covenant compared to how it ended up like even though I like the different philosophies that David and Walter had. I understand what you mean about balancing David and the monster but it didn't work. Maybe they thought that they needed more David and more monsters to make it work, but they were wrong.
"It seems they NEVER even Pay any Attention to the Engineers Plot.... Creators, and WHO we had Interactions with that LED to our Mythos and Religions about Gods!"
That might have been what went on but it was too bad, by doing that they miss out on many things that could have been interesting. I still think that the Engineers can be a good way to expand the franchise even though there could be more things.
In the context of the franchise maybe the Engineers could have seeded humanoids or even humans on other planets. Another way is that the Engineers seeded humans on earth and humanoids on other planets. This makes me wonder genetically speaking, what would be the differences in genes between humanoids and humans? Human beings on earth share most of the genes so how much difference would it be between those on earth and those on other planets?
Maybe the Engineers could change our ways or maybe if they won't succeed they might restart it all. I wouldn't like to be there when pissed of Engineers come back to do what they want to do. A angry dog would be a cute puppy by comparison to an army of angry Engineers, just imagine.
You mention human embryos, maybe the Engineers would take some and try to engineer them to get rid of the bad sides that mankind has? If they have thought about it or if they succeed is another question.
"My idea for one of my Prometheus Sequels had taken Dr Shaw and David to a World that has other HUMANS and the Revelation would have been that WE do-not Originate on Earth at all."
That might have been interesting but I would liked to have seen less of Shaw in a movie like that.
Just to say guys, if some or most of my replies and such sound 'off', I am dealing with badly warped eyeglasses. One eye is trying to handle long focus and the other is trying to do short-focus--at the same time.
I think you can all imagine how disorienting, and painful this is.
New glasses are ordered--but 2 weeks to arrive due to my prescription being so severe they had to special-order the lens blanks.
I had hoped to get them in a day, but no luck.
So, I am just coping best-possible, can't read much apart from a few sentences here and there, and thinking through this migraine is barely-possible.
Sorry if I've been off-key, but now you all know the 'why'.
Also, is anyone else having issues with their signatures not showing up??
I don't think there was any kind of plan, other than a little rough draft with ideas for Prometheus 2. If not for Blomkamp's film on the horizon, Ridley would have kept stalling for time until FOX was bought by Disney and then we wouldn't have gotten a Prometheus sequel at all.
I do not argue - maybe Scott was thinking about Prometheus 2, maybe he had some ideas, but it is obvious that he was not going to make a sequel to Prometheus in at least another 10 years.
>>>could be that those Prometheus Engineers are NOT too Different to David.
It looks like they found their one perfection in Alien, as did David. And they also harbored a grudge against humanity. But instead of ovomorphs, they used Black Goo.
"Alien: Engineers by Jon Spaihts and even for Prometheus by Damon Lindelof"
Certainly i think that a 3rd Rework that kind of Merges some Elements of BOTH of those Drafts would have been the Best Way to go Forwards.... if you look at what was Removed from Alien Engineers, then i think they needed to ADD a little of it back...
"Yeah, the Planet 4 ones were not that impressive but they could have fixed that by showing that there were different kinds of Engineers. More bio-mechanical things and more like those in Prometheus."
I think i can see some of the Disappointment, but the way i am Drawn to look at it in LIGHT of some of the Comments by RS both prior to AC and after... could be that those Prometheus Engineers are NOT too Different to David.
A Engineered Sub-Creation to Serve a Function.
But Alas.
"it seemed that Prometheus 2 was to be more about our creation and Shaw’s search for answers"
It could have gone that way, with Prometheus then you had a Number of Ways to have Continued.
The Basis of Dr Shaws wishes for Answers is that she Clutches to her Faith that her GOD would surely have NOT tried to KILL us. She is Holding on to the Notion that maybe their is someone who Created the Engineers who would be more Fitting to her Faith.
Regardless of what she Discovers she wants to KNOW as to WHY they would Create us, and then DESTROY us....
But those Answers are likely already there in Prometheus.
I think the Bigger thing to have looked at is that its UNLIKELY that we was Unique, that we was the ONLY such Creation of the Engineers. And so we maybe would NEVER had been Viewed and Cherished by our Creators as Dr Shaws Faith would have her Gods view about us.
When looking at the SET-UP it would appear that the beings they would have Discovered would NOT have been VERY kind to us, well they would from our POV be seen as NOT so Benevolent. The things to Remember are that David has Witnessed that our Creators are Mortal and have as much Care for us as we do for David. He may likely had seen they Possess Power and Technology and the Ability to Create but all of this is WASTED by them.
Key points is that RS saw those in Prometheus as Fallen, but also giving Indication that they are NOT the Top of the Creation Chain. That also THEY would Discover some beings who are NOT GODS who again are FAR from Benevolent.
And also KEY points in the SET-UP was that ONCE we have David back in ONE piece then he becomes Dangerous and that he would be BRINGING HELL with him.
Other things to Consider is that Dr Shaw has NOTHING! There is NOTHING for her to go back HOME too. If she could CREATE and so have Children then she may have been Swayed to go Home.
She wants to go to where the Engineers came from for her ANSWERS... even if this means her DEATH!
David on the other hand is Finally Free, he is NOT shackled to Serve anymore, and he would likely want to LIVE so he can Live out his Potential that he maybe Felt he could NOT have with Weyland around.
Survival is maybe what David wants, and it would be Likely that he would KNOW their is the RISK that the Engineers would NOT be some Welcoming...... so it was LIKELY he was going to PULL THE TRIGGER on them anyway.
We cant be 100% sure what we would have got, we would need to see some of Paglens Drafts and the Green Rewrites to get a Idea of WHERE a Prometheus 2 was going before FOX had wanted to bring in the Xenomorph and make a Direct Prequel to ALIEN as opposed to STEER AWAY as First intended in 2012-2014
"I would rather have nothing compared to getting another disappointment"
I think thats Correct, i think while we GOT no NEWS on ALIEN DAY 2019 this was because there was NO real Movie in the Works and so Indeed if you HAVE NOT got the Right Story and IF you are Concerned to Continue with the Prequels would give you No Reward... then Disney would NOT just make a ALIEN Movie or Announce one just for the Sake of it. Also you dont want to get Fans hopes up unless something is 100% in the Works.
@Leto
I think Canon should come down to Personal Choice and i think when Blomkamp had touted his Project they had said that it would OFFER a Fork in the Road.
We dont know IF or HOW he would have done that (would he had used Cryo-Dream plot). But if his ALIEN V had been made and then we got a ALIEN 6 then i think the idea as far as Canon would be that when we get to the END of ALIENS then there would be TWO Alternative Routes for Sequels.
So Fans could either like both or CHOOSE which they wish to Accept. I Personally dont think you need to do any of this, i think that Ripley had her Journey and so you can go and GIVE us a ALIEN Movie that is NOT Connected to her.
The Prequels are a Bad Dream for some Fans, i think while there was Potential i think they are at a STICKING POINT now with as FAR as how to Continue.... and so i think what Happens to the Covenant and David could remain a Mystery or more likely in the Context of the ALIEN V then these Prequels could be IGNORED.
And so maybe HINTS could be given to a Different Xenomorph Origin or maybe the WHOLE idea of the Xenomorpm Origins and the SPACE JOCKEY would be just IGNORED and kept a Mystery within Context to any kind of RETCON which is what i think ALIEN V will likely be.
David and Walter had a quite a Fair Share of Involvement and Input on a lot of the Franchise, but with this ALIEN V Project it seems likely that they would have a MAJORITY of the Say on it..... UNLESS its Plot etc is something that Disney are NOT so pleased with or think WONT make Money then the BUCK $ stops with them.
I think regarding the Direction (assuming the Movie that is in the works is the Hill/Giler Project) it does seem that this IDEA is Anchored on Ripley and so with No Miss Weaver then a LOT of the idea would have to be RE-WRITTEN.
I think that Certainly we would see Alien 3 and Alien R removed as merely a Dream... The Prequels i think would just be Ignored as if they NEVER Happened.
Maybe i am reading to much into this Quote on the Draft Cover though "All that we see or seem. Is but a dream within a dream"
Which could indicate that we could be shown something that would Question our View (Ripleys) about WHAT is Reality and what is Illusion (Dream).
A Dream within a Dream could but this is just Wild Speculation, but it could indicate that Ripley is Dreaming of the Events of ONE of the Movies and in her Dream she has another Dream which is where Alien 3 and Alien R occur.
So WHAT IF they also indicate that EVERYTHING from after the END of ALIEN is a Dream?
I think that would be a Mistake because to have ALIENS down as a Dream and so the Characters and Queen are just a Figment of Ripleys mere Imagination would be something that would UPSET the Fanbase (well a High %) as the Concept of David as the Creator of the Xenomorph.
A Problem that comes from this kind of Dream Angle is HOW do they deal with HOW our Miss Weaver has Aged since ALIEN and ALIENS.
You would ASSUME in Context to the Cryo-sleep Technology that for her too look like she has aged 20-30 Years we have to ASSUME she would have to be in Cryo-sleep for MUCH MUCH Longer than 40-50 Years.
So maybe a Large Portion of the Movie would be SET some 20-30 Years after she is Rescued from the Narcissus or the Sulaco.
I dont think they would throw a CURVE-BALL to reveal a 60 Year Old Ripley is being Tested on with some Device to IMPLANT a Alternative Reality Dreams and so all the EVENTS of the Franchise are Dreams. Because this would make the Xenomorph as just a Illusion.
Eh. I know why Ridley removed many scenes from Prometheus - for runtime, to make the movie shorter> show more sessions> sell more tickets per day.
Why did we get a generic forest in AC? For the same reason - lack of money.
>>>Scott's potential is unsurpassed, just give him a good idea and script and he'll make you jump out of your seat
He had good ideas and scripts for Alien: Engineers by Jon Spaihts and even for Prometheus by Damon Lindelof. But in the end he abandoned the first and even turned the second into a mess. A beautiful and inspiring mess. But still a mess.
Ridley is a great director, but he should never come close to scripting and stories. Never. Submit ideas - yes. It is the director's responsibility. But shouldn't try to change the already written story for some ideas. There's a screenwriter for the story.
>>>I think they should go with a WY story.
Only as a spinn-off tv-show. The very idea that the next 5 years will be spent on a faceless film about the intrigue of suits is completely depressing. Perhaps even the most die-hard fans will leave after three decades of disappointment: A3 & AR in 90's, AvP & AvPR 10's, P&AC in 10's. If the fourth decade comes with a boring wy-suits experiment - well, the end.
But, dk, don't rush to argue with me! I'm only talking about the format of a feature film. Maybe a TV show about costumes is a good idea.
--
>>>RS was HOPEFUL he could Continue with his STORY
This is another thing that we can forget about. Ridley is a busy man. He has a big film schedule. If Disney wants to make (suddenly) a new Alien film, should they wait for Scott to complete all other business? It looks like Ridley is taking his time himself. A similar situation was with Prometheus 2/Covenant. Ridley only started filming AC when Blomkamp's film appeared on the horizon. Which could put his own film at risk. That is why the Covenant turned out like this. Scott had to make this film, otherwise he would have missed out on the franchise. But the most important question: should the FOX / Disney to wait for him? Ridley hasn't been interested in a new movie for about 30 years!
>>>new power-players outside of WY let’s say.
YES! I don't understand why people are stuck with WY. Alien: Isolation took the right step with Seegson. WY is all about bioweapons. It's boring and irrelevant. Bring in a new pharmaceutical mega-corporation chasing the medical potential of the xenomorph and the technology of engineers. THIS IS RELEVANT!
The era of conspiracy, bioweapons and suits ended with X-Files.
I think that if you want to catch people’s interest you got to get it right from the beginning. With the prequels being as underwhelming as they are I guess that it isn’t surprising that we have the situation that we have. The problem is that they have both had mostly poorly executed characters and have been about a mad robot. Obviously I repeat myself but if I say that I don’t like something or why a lot of people disagree with something in general I got to give an explanation why that might be.
"We know the Prequels had NOT been to everyone's Cup of Tea."
Tea or coffee depends on the time of the day. ;) It was a box office disappointment because they didn’t learn from Prometheus what people didn’t like.
Hopefully they will be able to do something new. I would prefer a spin-off rather than to have another Ripley-movie or a continuation of the prequels. Unfortunately I think that we would get more David with Scott involved so they need to get him out of the picture sorry for saying it but that is what I think is needed otherwise we will probably get something close to where we are now. Of course we could get a good third prequel but somehow I doubt it. Scott could be on as a producer at best but I am afraid that he would like to influence the story if they are not able to stop him from doing that.
One thing that I would like to see is completely new characters that have nothing to do with those that we have seen this far so no Ripley's cousin, not Daniel's sister, etcetera. Not only new characters but new personalities too or at least not copies, Daniels was too close to Ripley’s personality for example. To try to cut the ties as much as possible with what has been seems to be more exciting if you ask me because then you don’t need to be burdened with what has come before. You can go back and see what has been done before to find inspiration and if you find something where you can use the Engineers let’s say as a starting-point for new things then why not. While getting new ideas there shouldn’t be a need to feel hindered by what has been before although you can find commonalities (think for example Star Wars or Lord of the Rings).
My hope is that Ridley is done, as far as affecting the story and as director of the franchise. He is good with visuals but that’s it. You mention the 40th anniversary but I think that they got to think a lot of where they are now to get it right. I would rather have nothing compared to getting another disappointment.
Give me something new, at least something that isn’t about androids or Ripley.
"What are your thoughts on doing this kind of Retcon?"
That's a difficult question to answer. I'm afraid that they will keep 1 and 2 and erase 3, something that I refuse. Dreams: Erase AC and AR, maybe keep Prometheus but probably not and continue from there because I like how they introduced the Engineers but keep David away or reduce his role. More Engineers would be nice but they got to get them right. An Alien 5 should not erase Alien 3 and have no Ripley, other than that I am open to different things. Erase 2 and go from 1 to 3. ;) Oh I forgot, don’t let it take place on earth. :D To use old ideas, it depends on if they bring something interesting to the story and if they do then sure but I prefer new things. As far as the title is concerned it depends on what Awakening means, I can’t say yes or no to that.
I like the idea of the Engineers so I hope that they keep them in some way but maybe expand on them and explain their society and culture better. Keep them closer to the monster or maybe have something similar to the Engineers but more mysterious. To completely throw that away would be a pity because I like the idea, I don’t like how they were handled especially in AC but they should also have been better explained in Prometheus (for example the sacrificial scene and when the Engineer spoke to Weyland). Unfortunately they were like a lot of other things in Prometheus - good ideas but bad execution. If we don’t keep them then come up with another life-form and how their culture might be. Find a way to expand the franchise but that makes sense and is not too vague.
"WHAT could this ALIEN V show?"
New planets and cultures, new power-players outside of WY let’s say. Different companies because they are always fighting for power/market parts.
BD
You mention the themes of creation and that, which I am not against. What I am against is how it comes off on the screen, namely about an angry robot with daddy issues because he was told that he could not create. The themes are alright the story and characters are lacking. You can look at it like the map versus the reality, the map is the themes and the reality is how it comes off as a movie. The map looks good but they don't fit with the terrain, so to speak.
"If the Story was to have Continued i suspect we would see a Repeat of the Theme to another Layer after maybe David would Re-Engineer those Embryo's to make Humans MK2"
The thing is, I don't care about it. This reply is not meant to come off as aggressive but honestly I have no interest in watching a movie like that. If Star Wars would have had the same themes but crappy characters I would have the same opinion about it, luckily enough they get enough of the characters right. When mentioning Star Wars I mean that original trilogy.
Yes I also agree that we should have had more of the Engineers. I had to read that sentence some times to understand what you meant.
"I think back in 2010 they had Intended to make a Prequel that would SET-UP a way to Explore more about the Engineers and STEER AWAY from ALIEN."
If they would have had more about the Engineers but have a better ties between them and the Xeno I wouldn't mind. They were new and interesting and we already had four official movies with the monsters.
"The Problem is some Fans are maybe NOT open to having a Expanded Universe about the Engineers/Space Jockey that would be a SPIN OFF and NOT a Directly Connected Franchise to the Xenomorph."
Maybe if you don't make the connections being too vague it might work. You don't need Xenos, just don't make it a guessing game. There got to be a mix, not too obvious and not too uncertain.
Yup, Covenant was a mistake - no Engineers (except for in the beginning), poorly made characters, and too much about androids. These are my complaints about the movie. If they would have fixed those things before they started to shoot it if the Engineers and the monsters would have been better, but also if they hadn't cut the character-moments to deliver a run-time it would have improved the movie. I am more disappointed about the poorly made characters rather than the lack of Xenomorphs. A lack of Xenos in Prometheus wasn't a problem for me, the lack of characters was way more annoying.
About the plot, I think that if you make enough interesting things, and have enough characters to care about it will solve many problems. The plot was alright, most of the characters were lame.
"This could have given us a Movie that was more like Alien Engineers... "
If that would have meant better human characters then sure. Good for those that wanted to see more about David and Shaw. I would probably have stayed at home, but that depends on what they would have done with it since so much depends on the characters so I wouldn't automatically reject such a thing, if that makes sense to you.
"As FAR as so HOW MUCH of the Prequels they TOSS OUT if we going for a Prequel again?"
I don't know, there got to be a better way to do it that doesn't evolve around a robot. I liked the Engineer part, I liked the human connections to an extent (Engineers and monsters), I liked the look of the movie. What didn't work in Prometheus were most of the characters. Covenant had mostly lame human characters, almost no Engineers, and was about robots. You can point to the themes, but that is how it came off on the screen. Maybe it could work if they get good writers, a director that cares about the human adventure/characters and understands that is what it is about, a director that doesn't interfere with the writing and story and that understands his or her limits of what they are good at. Unfortunately Scott seems (obviously I don't know him) to be none of that.
Oh, F, not Alien 5. I am against everything that erases Alien 3.
Scott doesn't understand why the prequels lacked, he only sees it as being about the Xeno while the problems were deeper than that. Lame human characters and to make it about robots were way more annoying than the lack of Xenos. My point is, if that's what he thinks then it seems to me that he doesn't know what the problems were.
"Alien Covenant also had NOT the best Characters etc."
I would say that about both prequels, but unfortunately Scott doesn't seem to understand that. When you write also I'm not sure if you compare it to Prometheus or if you bring up that as one of the problems that Covenant had.
". . . but the BIG ONE is that NO ONE would have Envisioned that the Xenomorph was a Creation by a Synthetic with some Daddy Issues."
That's one of the worst things that the prequels did. They got to get that right if they shall remake it or fix that problem. I mean WTF, what a dumb idea.
Yeah, the Planet 4 ones were not that impressive but they could have fixed that by showing that there were different kinds of Engineers. More bio-mechanical things and more like those in Prometheus.
Scott talks about how ineffective the Xeno is, he is right that it is good to bring something new. What he doesn't understand is that he gives the robots too much of a role which is boring, and he also affects the writing which gives us crappy human characters.
"It may NOT mean NO Xenomorphs it could be to Rethink the Origins Story after the David Arc seemed to be a NO GO with the Fans."
If that is the case (and it seems to be a guessing game with Scott since he doesn't seem to be able to explain his ideas in a good way judging from interviews that I have seen) then it might be a good thing. What I am afraid of is that he is too much into David to make that happen and that he says so just to appease some people. Just kill David and move on, that is what I would like to see. Done with the robot story in maybe 15 minutes, that should at least make up somewhat for Covenant. You are right that they got to make it clear that David didn't create the monster otherwise some might think that's still the case.
"You still have to then think so what does David do in this Movie?"
Hopefully not too much, I'm done with him. They could make him yodeling maybe, at least he seems to be into fluting. ;) He could sit at a mountain and sing in a bizarre voice and then he dies because his singing sounds terrible and disables his system. :D More Engineers please, more of those that we saw in Prometheus and also more of their culture and society. To make David the middle-man in the creation of the monster would be alright, at least better than what we saw in Covenant. I'm not interested in seeing more of him but if they feel that they must have him in the movie they should have David in a limited amount like maybe two scenes. Fassbender is a good actor but I don't like where the prequels are now.
"I think some of us would have been Pondering about the Engineers Origins, and WHAT ELSE they have Created and so HOW MANY such Worlds and Races!"
That would have been a great way to go, really interesting. Unfortunately we saw none of that and we have what we have.
"David was ALWAYS going to PLAY a Big Role, the Creation Arc and Themes were going to become about HIM, but it would seem we would have seen more about the Engineers and Dr Shaw would have been the Focus for our Answers."
A big role yes, about him probably no. Before AC it seems that it was more about the origins of mankind even Shaw said that they first created us and then tried to destroy us. Yes David was a part of that big Prometheus was more about the creation of mankind and religion, it was not about David even though he played a big role in the idea of creation. It wasn’t until Covenant that it became about him and got effed up. To me it seemed that Prometheus 2 was to be more about our creation and Shaw’s search for answers, not necessarily about David I agree with Leto about this one.
"The Prometheus Themes and Arc was to be Centered around the LAYER of David and WHAT he Creates."
Which is boring, I don’t want it centered on an android. No matter if Fox and or Scott had planned on doing so or not I am not interested.
Leto
I'm not sure whose idea it was to have the Engineer city like that but it looked boring compared to what it could have been. The Engineers in Prometheus looked great, more like I would have imagined the SJ to be but then the showed them as cavemen in AC which was disappointing. What was on Planet 4 could have looked a lot more mysterious and alien but instead they went with stone-huts, sigh.
"But Scott itself destroyed the Engineers."
Scott and/or Fox, don't forget that Fox has a lot to say about it since it is their money. I don't say that Scott is without blame but I don't think that he alone is the one that messed it up. What I really think though is that he has a part of the development with the focus on David in AC which was just wrong.
Both prequels could have been so much better but we have what we have. Let's see what will come out of this but like SuperAlien said we will probably not see an alien-movie for years. I don't feel very sorry about that since I would rather have an interesting story with well made human characters rather than something that has been rushed. Unfortunately the quality has been more or less the same from AR to now (AVPR is in a league of its own when it comes to shittiness though).
They can make things worse even though I don’t think that it is likely. We'll see where this goes, hopefully it will be better.
Membrane
You are right that a lot of the cut scenes should have been kept in, for example the Xeno-Fifield, the scene where they find a worm before they decided to pet a space-cobra, when Janek talked with Vickers about when he was at that military mission that explained a little what the Engineers did at LV-223.
They made a very poor job when they edited this, unfortunately. At the same time there were maybe scenes that were in the movie that could have been cut and replaced with some of those that they omitted. Prometheus failed partially because of too many cut scenes that would have made sense and that would have built characters.
Roger G
"I do not know if you have already seen the first 3 Episodes. . ."
Nope, I haven't watched it because I have really don't care. I don't have any interest in a story about androids because alien-related or not that's just me. Alien Covenant was a lot about androids and a lot of it (not everything since there were parts that I enjoyed) was boring. We all have different preferences in TV-shows and movies and that's fine, maybe there will be something for me to watch too but this isn't such a thing.
I think they should go with a WY story. We haven't seen that yet so it's untapped territory.
Scott is busy with what could be 5 seasons of RBW and that is just fine.
I think it would be neat to see what his son could do with the WY angle- movie or streaming series.
LOVE that 'Starbeast' poster!!
Also, you and everyone else with your statements and comments just reinforce what I said about this franchise truly belonging in the hands of the Fandom.
WE all know it far better than The Industry.
ALIEN: Manticore 'Out Of The Silent Dark' gives another boost to letting The Alien return to the enigmatic shadows from whence it and where it Belongs.
ORIGINS is just a piece of fun for the Fandom to make up for ALIEN: Covenant's horrible decision about David creating the creatures.
REST ASSURED that at some point in the future, his cheap knock-offs WILL meet an RS-Class 'Big Chap', and everyone in that story will be in very damn serious trouble.
For now, it's about a good sequel, tying up some loose story threads, and restoring our fave critter back to it's Natural Environment...the deep and dangerous shadows amongst the stars.
As a teaser about this sequel, I will say this;
'The Marines in 'ALIENS' had it Easy'
:D
'In Space, There Is No Warning'
