Comments (Page 185)

I don't think we need to apologize all the time. Let's just discuss, high and low. Either you find something interesting and you take part in the discussion or you just skip it.

This topic was about the eggs on LV-426. Which came first, the egg or the xenomorph? :)

dk

Wait, I might actually be right about something for once?

If you haven't read it, I would really recommend "Alien: River of Pain". River of Pain is Acheron (LV-426) and we get to know the horrifying and sad story about what happened to Hadley's Hope Colony and to Newt's parents and brother.

Excuse me if I interfere in the midst of the duel, but I was wondering if we’re talking on different levels here?

A work (novel/film) can have a metaphorical, symbolic level in which themes and motifs come into play. These suggest things rather than explicitly spell it out. This is a big part of poetry.

So for example in religion and myths, mankind can be punished for the sins it’s done (the Sins of the Fathers or Prometheus’s “sins”). So if a human (Kane) interferes with creation and exposes itself to an ovoid (which is meant for other things), a xenomorph is the result (which is punishment)?

On the other hand, we can look at it more literally. Then we have to (try to) apply a scientific approach of cause and effect. We can talk about heredity and biology or AI. Can a xenomorph inherit psychological traits? Well, of course it can’t because xenomorphs don’t exist. :) Anyway, it would be feasible that psychological traits connected to a species would suit the xenomorph because it would make it perfect for the environment in which it is born.

Could it inherit specific traits from an individual (Kane)? Could it inherit memories from an individual (Ripley)? If we look at it from a survival point of view (the xenomorph is a survivor), if it inherited psychological traits from its host it would probably adapt better to the environment (since the host is probably well adapted to the environment). Memories would also be advantageous since the “newborn” might “know” how to escape (air ducts e.g.).

hox I am pretty sure it is tongue in cheek and meant to get people's backs up. The video is long but funny to listen to some of these pretentious "reviews". Note the ";)" in the OP title. TheLazyFish could very well be correct.

Wait,Alien is not an original story,here's why:

There was a movie called "It!The Terror From Space!",and it was made before Alien,and that movie had the original of idea "A space crew investigates a planet and somehow they bring an Alien on the ship",and its the same plot!

Each to their Own Really!

Ridley Scott has admitted and some who worked with him, that he Borrows Ideas from other Movies etc, they all do it.. you Rarely see anything Original Anymore.

The Movie is a Straight Up B-Movie... what Set it apart was TWO FOLD...

*The Cast of a Few Characters and how they came across more closer to Regular Joes... (Space Truckers)  and i think they was Well Executed... its NOT gonna Win a Oscar but its by No Means AWFUL!

*The Monster from its Parasitic/Sexualized Life Cycle to its Appearance (thanks to HR Giger) and Traits (Acid Blood for one).

If the Story was Executed Poor with Poorer Cast.... and if the Monster was different then we would END UP with a B-Movie that would not be such a HIT.

YES the Sets where Great but the ONLY ones that were really different to anything we had seen before or that are commonly used in Space Sci-Fi was the Derelict Shots... and these ONLY took a Small Portion of the Movie!

So its UNFAIR to say that the SETS are all the Movie had Going for it...

As far as the Monster and what is NOT shown, we are dealing with a Man in a Suit...  and there is ONLY so much at that Time (1978-79) that you could do with Visual Effects, and showing the Xenomorph too much may have looked more Cheap/Comical well it would not have had the Same Impact..

You see Enough to FORM a Visualization in your Head about the Rest of it, and i think the NOT seeing it much is WHAT really made it STAND OUT!

But Each to its OWN!

Still TODAY i view ALIEN as a Great Movie what could be Changed?  Seeing the Alien a Little More with Improved/Replaced Effects... but then what Little We Saw was Good Enough!

YES we had Minor Scale Issues like TWO different sized of the SET/Space Jockey, and the Cargo Hold that seemed Massive but at the Time of the Movie and after the First 5 Times i saw it, these things NEVER even made a Difference to me or the Plot!

Alien is a 85/100 Movie for Me and My System a Average is 50/100  I cant really Fault the Movie much and it has not Changed much on me as Time goes by.

Eh, probably just someone looking to make a muck for profit, or as I like to call em, trolls who get paid or trolls for hire. Business trolls? Anyways, nothing of substance in this review. Almost as poorly done as a certain, lazy idiot's review of JWFK (though I do agree with the points. I mean, come on. A smiling Dinosaur? Is it Barney?) lol.

Well Forgive me i had not Interpreted that Chli's Topic is SOLELY based off your Idea/Work, i interpreted that he was exploring a Idea that after Discussions with you that he had felt you raised some Interesting Things in Relation to this Topic

I would not say I am THROWING any Kitchen Sink at all, and i am sorry if you Interpret my Comments as such, i dont intend for it to come across like.

Maybe i should REFRAIN from Topics until i have read your work in FULL but then i would be Concerned that any Comment could be taken Very Wrong, even in its to the Point of Agreeing for the Most Part.

My reply was to in General discus the Potential of there being some way the Xenomorph would gain some Memory, Knowledge or Instincts from a Host, and to look at ways it could apply, it was NEVER to discount anyone else's view or discussion on the OT at all.

So when the Topic talked about HOW we are shown the Xenomorph takes on Physical Traits such as the Dog Alien walking on all Fours, then we can assume a Shark Alien would have a lot of the Biology of a Shark, because taking these Traits suits the Environment.

I assumed the next Phase was about Psychological Traits and could they be Carried over and i was mentioning that Indeed some Traits like Basic Instincts could be Carried Over to Help with the Survival of the Species in a Particular Environment.   But i also thought about things such as Carry Over some Memories that would gain the Xenomorph Knowledge of say its Environment the Host came from the Layout of the Environment it will Inherit etc.

I apologize to Chli if that is Off-Topic..  I often will explore beyond the BOX of a Subject, and i am sorry if this may seem as Derailing Certain Threads!

So i took the Closing Comment...

"Can inner, psychological, qualities of the host affect what the alien creature (the xenomorph) becomes? What are your thoughts?"

And in part i looked at how ASH and his comments and what we see in the Franchise, and that it seems in Context to the Franchise that the Xenomorph seemed to Run more on Instinct and Survival, and by that if Mary Poppins and Hitler got Face Hugged then both Xenomorphs would NOT really act much different, they would go by their Basic Instinct to Survive and Procreate...    A Xenomorph this Born from a Good Soul would not be making Conscious Decisions like "i should be become Vegan to Protect the Environment/Carbon Foot Print"

And so thats only Part of what i was passing my Thoughts about, and its not intended on taking a Knock on the OT.

I had commented on IF it was a Engineered Weapon then if it could take on Traits of a Host as far as the Psychological Traits or HOW GOOD a Persons Soul is and this Impacts the Application of a Engineered Weapon, then i felt this would maybe not be a Ideal Planned/Engineered Trait...  that does-not Rule-Out such a thing being a Unintended Consequence However.

And so again i am Guilty of taking it out of the BOX, such as to bring in Ripley 8 and her Memory and i should KEEP it to the Specifics which would be (if am incorrect forgive me) that would the Moral Compass of a Host make a difference to the Xenomorph's Purpose and How it would Act?

or as i also discussed are we only talking about the Basic Psychological Traits than every Human is Born with, which would be about Survival, Feeding, and Procreation but then i dont think this Constitute a Sin..

"I have said before if you have ideas of your own which you feel are exciting and have legs then write your own story"

Unlike yourself, i have not really attempted this in Depth, because i find it HARD to come up with a SOLUTION or Idea that i am Happy to Stick to, that i feel would not have any Contradictions.... its a Difficult Task which No Doubt, Paglen and Green had Found and HENCE with Alien Covenant Plot/Narrative its made something more Basic and Simple... in Comparison to HOW they could have explored things.

That is NOT a attack against what you have done, its merely a Admiration to the Effort and Having a Defined Plan and Sticking to it that you have.

I look at the Plot and try and come up with some Theories but then its Hard to Pin-Point a Single Thread to Follow, and then as we Got the U-Turn that was Alien Covenant, it seemed my Ideas would be MOOT so i abandoned them.

I had attempted a Idea of where to go NEXT after Alien Covenant and looking at my Interpretation but i Never Invested in presenting it, because i am just NOT sure that people would be Interested.... i think that also applies to the Route that Ridley Scott is taking anyway.

Remember people that cinema is art and art is subjective.

I know many non-alien fans that find Alien slow, boring, dull and far fetched. I personally find Ghostbusters 2016, The Predator, and Terminator: Dark Fate as some of the laziest written and poorly executed movies of recent years, but yet there are some that like some or even all three of these movies.

This is why for me I think reviewers and review sites/aggregators need to differentiate between one's opinion of a movie and a review of a movie. For example opinion wise I would personally rate Alien 4 out of 5, but review wise I would give it at most 2 out of 5.

How could people say that?That movie is one of the best ones ever made.

@BigDave

Chli made it perfectly clear that the context of his question was my work, your throwing the kitchen sink at it obscures the point entirely. 

Can I suggest in order to be as polite as possible that if you ever read my work please PM me and stick to specific reactions to it as a thing in itself and not comparatively to existing works or your own ideas? I know the existing works I have set out the relationship in a glossary and as I have said before if you have ideas of your own which you feel are exciting and have legs then write your own story.  

Well we DONT know what Happened after that Scene of the Jordens and Until they Lost Contact with Earth... well we do a Infestation... but not the Specifics.

It is Likely that Russ was taken back and into the Infirmary and the Face Huger then Detached and he seemed Fine, so maybe they send a Team to the Site to Investigate (we can only Speculate on if some of them was Given a Special Order to try and Retrieve and Store a Specimen). 

Once they Realize what was going on  they may have sent some down to Eradicate the Threat but they get Infected and Killed/Captured by at least Russ Xenomorph and then Once we have a Handful of Xenomorphs its GAME OVER for the Colonist.

"I will keep out of these threads in future and I apologise to chli for offering my simple 1979 view of things"

No Need to Apologize everyone has different views some get Bogged Down on the Visuals/Details, when the Story is whats more Important ;)  I look forwards to reading your Version, and thank you for the Effort and Passion that has gone into it.

"I am sure people find the idea of going to the trouble of writing two novels which challenge what an intelligent creation looks like bizarre"

I have yet to Read them, i think its sounds a Interesting Take, and its always interesting to take on board other peoples Interpretations, and what we get on here is Fans do have some Issues with what is being presented as far as those who Work on the Movies, Ultimately regardless of any Inconsistency, we have to Accept what the Director and his Team are Intending at the Point of Wrapping up the Movie on the Cutting Floor....  Until we get a Conclusion then some fans will Speculate or Wishfully hope what we get is Different to what is Intended as that does-not reflect what some people had interpreted from the Movies... but WHEN/IF we get a Conclusion then we have to ACCEPT what ever we are TOLD as far as Story more so than what is Shown in Conflict to previous Plans or Inconsistencies.

@chli

I apologize if i have derailed some Threads... the Reason i recently tried to look in Detail at the Derelict Sizes was to Frame it in Context to the OT, where it seems INDEED the Cargo Hold would NOT have FITTED and its IF we accept this or it is Revealed then in Context to the OT then the Likely-hood of their being some Eggs that can Salvaged after ALIENS would be Greatly Increased in comparison to if the Revelation would be as RS has said, that the Cargo Hold is part of the Ship.

I think it would  not matter Regardless because if they did in Context to the OT a Movie that goes back to LV-426 and the Derelict then for the Convenience of Plot the Derelict could be left as IN-TACT as they wish to suit their Story.

@Gavin

Certainly there was no Real Explanation other than it just Happened, we are then NOT supposed to Wonder to HOW only that Section became Damaged... to keep with his Idea and if it NEEDED a Explanation then they could say  it was caused merely by a Meteor.

It looks like it was Blown from the Inside, but that does-not have to be the Case, but what i was referring to is that the HOLE does allow for Speculation, and Potentially another Story to Explain HOW it came to be, the Same can be said for the HOLE that Kane Climbed down.. it could be explored in a number of ways, but likely will get NO explanation.

"an unintentional failure to notice or do something."

Thanks... i will admit sometimes i do maybe USE the wrong words,  my point of what i mean would be from OUR POV in that any Inconsistencies that we can pick up on, that some are Intended or some are Forced, and that IF these allow us to Argue/Debate that Certain things cant be like (thats NOT a Suit, it looks a Skeleton, and that is a CAVE its to big and Kane said it was a Cave) then what i am saying is that we have to Overlook any Flaws and Accept what the Writers/Director is trying to show us and so maybe YES then using Oversight is a Error by me and i should used another Word.

And so what i am saying is there are Changes, Differences that Happen that to the Viewer may seem Errors, but in Many Cases they are Changes that are Forced, or Purposely made to be more Practical.

To FIX those Discrepancies, they would have had to SHOW a Ship and Explore it having a Cargo Hold Under the Pilot Room which they would then have to make the Ship Larger, or Show the Cargo Hold as Smaller than in ALIEN... but they NEVER did this for reasons such as to NOT be directly connected to ALIEN, for reasons to TONE down the Aesthetic, but if they ever SHOW the Derelict Event then the same applies, they COULD reveal a Larger Part of the Ship, they could make the Hold Smaller... and what ever they do, any differences we would have to Accept and Overlook as it should not (as far as the Director etc) have any real effect on the Outcome of the Story.

And so when i use Oversight then that was maybe the Incorrect Word to use, as what i mean is from our POV in that any differences we would have to Accept and Overlook the Fine Details.

Lots of things get Changed for Convenience and PLOT and Practicality such as the U shape to C shape for the Juggernaught as a U Shape would not ROLL for that intended Crash Scene.

Cameron's Dome-less Xenomorphs, due to the Clear Part of the Costume not being Vigorous enough to withstand the Action Scenes and would become Damage or Come apart and so they was Removed for purely that Reason.

They had intended 15ft Space Jockey Race/Engineers, but then 15ft really is Massive! (I estimate the Space Jockey at 13ft), when Production Came it seemed they intended for 9-10ft Engineers.    But to USE such Engineers would mean LARGER Props such as Cryo-Chambers and to then Rely on CGI and Special Effects and so for Practicality they decided to just stick with the 7ft Actors to Create a Illusion of 8ft

Ridley Scott knows the Space Jockey was not 8ft, he had Decided that to convey even 10ft would require more Budget and Time and other Problems, that 8ft would NOT and so the decision was made,  For him it DID-NOT matter if this would NOT match the Space Jockey Size, for him it should not effect the PLOT/STORY that he is intending to show and at that point the Space Jockey was going to be a Mystery Anyway, but he had Confirmed for all Intensive Purposes the Space Jockey was a Engineer.

And so we are Expected to Accept and Overlook the differences, and for me then using Oversight was the Wrong Word and for that i Apologize for that and if it is Mislead/Mis-Interperted

So in a Nutshell i am kind of agreeing with what you are saying, i NOW understand the Context of using Oversight instead of saying we have to Overlook things so the Wrong Word Choice was used, which i will try to Refrain from using again.

I take part in debates about Errors, Sizes for just the debate and Speculation, and that these could be Explored/Changed for example they allow for the Introduction of another Race, or Taller Engineers etc.. but i always also Mention that we would likely have to ACCEPT what the Director etc is trying to Convey to us and Overlook any Inconsitancies as NOT really being Necessary to the Plot as far as the Writers/Directors etc and we have to Overlook them (i would have said consider them a Oversight on our Part, but i understand that is the Wrong Word Choice now).

"I have read this several times and I don't understand what you are trying to say"

This is purely in Context to the Topic by Chli and in Context to about IF the Xenomorph has the ability to take on Psychological/Emotional Traits of the Host and how this would be Ideal or Not for a Engineered Weapon.

What i was talking about was in CONTEXT to the Xenomorph being a Biological Weapon that is Engineered, then that IF that is the Case then allowing for this Intended Parasitic Weapon to have some kind of Genetic Memory and especially in Terms of being able to Carry Over and become Influenced by the Hosts Psychological/Emotional Traits would NOT be a ideal Component you would want for a Biological Weapon.

So i t was not anything to do with your idea.

But i will have a look at your Idea in Context to the OT now,

Ok so forgive but i have YET to read your work, and i really must look into it as it seems a Interesting Twist to the Story ;)

I had said in my Post about maybe some traits could be passed on from the Hosts Knowledge, but i Understand you are referring more to Instinct and i feel in that Context then Mankinds Instincts are to a degree Very Much like a Animals our Primal Instinct is  to Survive, to Feed, to Procreate and then Protect our Off-Spring and as such these Priorities are something that Mankind would go to Extreme Lengths to Carry Out, which would be to KILL if its Needed to Accomplish this.... at this Base Level we are No-More than other Primates...

But then Mankind has other Traits such as Empathy, Reason and Love and Compassion and these are more Influenced by Experience and Environment, i would assume you are referring to more Primal Instincts than these, and so these are NOT picked up on by the Xenomorph Organism,  which also applies i Guess to some Negative Traits like Greed for Power and Pleasure in the Suffering of others...  so i think also a Xenomorph would not pick up on these.

If we look at our Primal Traits then the Xenomorph does appear to be Similar, it Strives to Survive, to Feed, to Grow and to Procreate and for this it Requires to KILL in order to achieve this.  It seems once we have a HIVE then they Serve as a Part of the Greater Whole of a HIVE, rather than Individual Survival it becomes about their Species.

Regarding your Idea that you have taken some indication from Steve Messing, then i have to really Read your Whole Idea and look into Steve Messings Comments..

The Franchise is the work of Many Cooks, its is something that Evolves from Movie to Movie, Concept Artist to Concept Artist would have Certain Ideas about Certain Aspects and the Same applies to Writers, and Ultimately the Directors.

So this Next Part is not really in context to your idea, and so i think we have a Evolving Idea, prior to the Prequels we have RS say the Ovoids are a Bio-Logical Warfare, we are not indicated they are Engineered or Discovered, the Prequels began to show us they was Engineered, which Evolved into the Black Goo in Prometheus which again seemed to indicate a use as a Biological Weapon to Eradicate a World a Cleansing Tool of Sorts.

There is always some element of Ambiguity and Changes and differences of Opinion within those working on the Project.  For example "sometimes to create one must first Destroy"  this could be that the Intention was to Replace Mankind with what Changes would come from the Black Goo, or it also could be that In Order to Start Again and WIPE the Slate Clean then you have to Destroy what  is there First...  But this is the Conclusion of David and so that may not be 100% as Accurate to the Engineers Intentions. 

I apologize to Chli for this response being a bit OFF-TOPIC

To get it back to Context to the OT then it is a Case of looking more DEEPER into the Reason behind the Ovoids (maybe more than Goo) and so its about exploring and expanding to WHY they was Created and by WHO and depending on WHO and WHY would then be Relevant to how the OT would be applied.

So if we are going with David as the Creator then its a case of WOULD some kind of Passing on of the Instincts/Traits of the Host be something Intended/Designed by him, or just something that the Organism just is Capable of and is in NO way a Engineered Component to WHY they would do this (Carry on Instincts/Traits of a Host)...  but if the Organism is a Parasitic Survivor then carrying on Traits and Instincts is IDEAL to Survive in the Environment the Organism would Find itself.

In Context to your IDEA.. i cant really comment as i have YET to read on it, especially in Context to the Ovoids, the Origins and Purpose of them..

If i look at Starbeast and the Intention of a Host, and then this OT....  then you could assume that the Starbeast Ovoids needed a Host and so a Animal is Used and the Starbeast may have some Genetic Memory that is passed from Ovoid to the Chest Buster that Incubates inside a Host.

The Starbeast would have some Genetic Memory as far as Instincts passed on but would be Quite Feral, until it was Nurtured by its Own Kind and Learns...

And so in this Context and i am not sure if your Idea touches on similar, then a Human may not have been a Intended or Ideal Host.... and so when a Human in Context to the Starbeast Idea becomes a Host then as a Human has more Psychological/Emotional Traits a Soul if you would instead of that of a Animal, then the Ovoid would as a Unintended Consequence pick up on the Traits that a Human has as far as Survival and Instinct that a Animal does-not and THESE are then what Produces a Starbeast that would BEHAVE in a Different way than as Intended (using a Animal).

Thats not me suggesting your Idea is the same, as i have to Read your Idea, or its not suggesting this is what was intended by Ridely Scott as far as the Ovoids in the Prequels.   it was just a way to look at maybe how the Ovoids were maybe not Intended to be Interfered with or in Contact with a Human.... but such Contact has a Undesired Consequence for the Humans, but maybe also as far as the intended Purpose of the Ovoid.  But this really is only Relevant depending on the Purpose of those Ovoids and depending on WHO it is that Created them or HOW they came to be, then depending on that.. would change the Context.

The cluster to the right is a perfect alignment whereas with the second three the top hole is a little above and the Lone Figure could be taller but hey these are ancient bushmen. Life imitating art.    

I am currently in Kwa Zulu Natal and went hiking with my Zulu guide this morning. The hike included Lone Rock which has beautiful ancient cave paintings on its wall. They tell a story of beings moving toward a Lone figure stood erect and above the Lone figure are six circular holes in the rock face which sit neatly over the template offered by Dr Charles Holloway.    

OK. I have a few minutes to address this nonsense. @dk, are you sure this wasn't all just made up as a wind-up?

The entire success of this movie, where it's laurels rest, is upon those sets.

Nonsense. The visuals are great but so are the story and characters.

[Ridley Scott] says that if you think too hard about it then it does not make sense.

Of course it doesn't. Einstein told us that faster-thsn-light travel is impossible, but that doesn't detract from the story. It's science fiction, not a science documentary (as Ridley says).

the bulk of the movie is just pushed along by a continuance of sci-fi clichés such as those cryogenic "freezer-inos"

Ridiculous. The movie is pushed along by a unique take on its space-trucker origins. Not to mention the back story of the Alien.

not a reflection of life but an attempt to create a new vision for audiences that will change the course of the world

It's a reflection of a possible way of life in the future. That's what most sci-fi does.

The entire film equates male sexuality to a monstrosity.

No it doesn't. Whilst there are certainly sexual elements, lady parts get a good look in. See, for example, the vulva entrances to the spaceship and the lips of the eggs.

why are the destructive forces of progress written as female while the space of regression is shown as male?

You've just contradicted yourself by previously saying that the entire film equates male sexuality to a monstrosity.

Even the android Ash is feminized by being an android which is an assuredly impotent thing, indeed he must consume a drink that looks like semen discharge because he cannot produce his own

What on Earth are you talking about? Ash is far from feminine. His body contains a milky lubricant similar to what can be found in a lot of machinery. Nothing to do with semen or his inability to produce it.

portraying a woman in a man's role is not going to improve the world

Who said it would? And what, exactly, is a man's role anyway.

what is all the money in the world to a woman if she does not have a man to protect her

Now you're just being deliberatly silly.

it is not a film that gives respect to women. I think that Sigourney Weaver appears in it scantly clad and bra-less. Enough said.

No, enough is not said. The two female characters in the movie get full respect. The reason that Ripley appears in her underwear is not to tittilate the audience; it is to add a feeling of vulnerability and claustrophobia. Which it does very successfully. I'm sure we've all had anxiety dreams about turning up to school minus pants.

the opening shot that pans the spaceship is directly stolen from Star Wars

The point-of-view is quite different.

when Cain is attacked by the parasite it melts through his thick visor wall but leaves his face uninjured.

Kane has blood on his face.

When the monster kills Dallas it just is crouching there with it's arms outstretched, in fact never in the movie did I see the monster in the fluid motions of an attack.

It crouches in the dark and then stretches out its arms. The horror of what comes next is left to the viewer's imagination, and quite rightly so. The monster exhibited a fluid attack when it dispatched Parker.

Why am I supposed to believe that a spaceship would just conveniently have a self-destruct mechanism

Every spaceship ever launched has a self-destruct mechanism. There are a thousand reasons why the Nostromo might need one.

Wow, there are just so many things wrong with this review it’s hard to know where to start! Later...

@dk, Oh yes, it’s certainly a fun thought. It would have perhaps been more horrifying if it had actually been Newt’s mum in the cocoon, and if Newt had caught a glimpse. Maybe that would have just been too traumatic to countenance, though.

@I Raptus, Bishop not looking too good there! It’s been a while since I saw Alien 3... did he have lice too? NB, they cut down on the lice in the theatrical release. The Special Edition is much better in this respect and a few other regards.

Viewing the movie alone, Newt's mom could have made it back. Newt did, after all and probably couldn't have driven the Tonka truck back home by herself. At any rate, I was wrong, but it is fun to think about.

hox Yeah, why would she hot-foot it back to Hadley's Hope for a short back and sides?

Maybe they had a lice infestation like on Fury-161?? lol XD

BigDave

I have read this several times and I don't understand what you are trying to say. 

"but to swing it back, then as a Weapon/Eradication Tool then having Genetic Memorywould NOT be a Good Idea to allow such a Weapon."  Are you saying the concept is bad because your statement misunderstands the idea?

So I will restate my idea.

My idea which this thread is built on is not about genetic memory it's about more general behaviour and instinct of the creature when mankind is the host.

It's a storytelling point that mankind and the creature are not so very different.

All Ash is describing is what he sees, "a survivor, unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality." He has no idea why that is.

My idea is it is a consequence of an A.I's punishment tag. The activation of the face-hugger by an inappropriate target will kick in the punishment protocol.     

However, the Ovoids have been created for a purpose to apply Engineered designed characteristics to a specific very valuable target which amounts to intellectual property theft. So the hugger is programmed to take the traits of the host.

In this case its mankind so the creature is driven by its programme and any hybridised qualities it picks up. Mankind is fearful, aggressive over-sexualised and kills its own. As the writer of the chapter involving the creature I was making the point that its victim did not stand a chance and in a literary sense try and replay what we get in A L I E N with Ash saying you haven't a hope in hell. You have a punishment protocol driving it, general traits of mankind you don't stand a chance.      

It's that simple and to clarify the creature is not a bioweapon it is an unintended consequence which has an inbuilt programme to destroy any members of the interfering host species and it is as Steve Messing indicated a polluted degraded outcome and in my story specifically because mankind is the host.

You could also take the creature's behaviour as playing out Damon's paranoid world view that all children want their parents dead.

nice idea. Would have been brutal if it was.

Gut punch you in the feels

BigDave

Sweetheart Oversight means 

"an unintentional failure to notice or do something."

It's very simple what you keep on calling oversights are not they are deliberate choices.

However, what I am not questioning is your right to do the analysis to show the differences. 

To be entirely candid with you the reason I wrote a very long forward to my work on these dimensioning issues is to put on record I knew so I did not get bogged down in this stuff. When I found having 130 Ovoids in a Juggernaut did not get any comments from anybody I removed it to the notes.

When I travel and meet people who are ordinary filmgoers and mention the sort of things people obsess about on this site they look at me blankly so I am also trying to represent the silent majority who do not give two hoots about this stuff. 

I am sure people find the idea of going to the trouble of writing two novels which challenge what an intelligent creation looks like bizarre I find the majority of stuff people write about here profoundly uninteresting. But to defend those people here most fan sites do the same they do not talk story, character, atmosphere or themes they talk fabric.   

I will keep out of these threads in future and I apologise to chli for offering my simple 1979 view of things. 

@ BigDave,

I'm pretty sure that Cameron's inference is that Russ and Ann entered the derelict through a hole caused by and nearby the collapsed starboard arm.

@Chli

Back to the Derelict and Aliens...

We can Assume the HOLE is near/in the Arm Section as it appears the Jordons had been looking up at this Section, just prior to Parking the  ATV/Transport.

I have attempted to Estimate where they could have Entered.

NOW this looks like some Damage from Inside but it could be down to a Meteor Strike, we cant also RULE OUT that this was not there in ALIEN but then WHY would the Nostromo Crew had Entered the other Openings However?

I would however be Drawn to Assume it had Happened after ALIEN and it looks like something had Exploded in that AREA but something that was not so MASSIVE that it had not Created a Massive HOLE

So that leaves us with some Possibilities to HOW/WHEN and WHY that Hole had been Made ;)

Also if the Derelict can sustain such Damage then the Potential is that a NUKE would do more, but the Juggernaught appeared to Suffer Little Damage with the Collision with the Prometheus... But maybe Externally the Ships are Tough but from Inside or/and Over Time they are Weaker.

So the Survival of any EGGS if its Part of the Ship would depend on HOW FAR away the Derelict it.. a 40MT Blast would Destroy only up to the 40KM Mark (that would not be Critical Damage Either) as Actual Fireball would be about 6KM so NOT as big as Nebraska

So again we cant Nit-Pick over Particulars because if it was a 40MT Nuke then if the Derelict is over say 20KM away then YES something could be Salvaged but maybe would be Radioactive...

Considering a Blast the Size of Nebraska and Damage to the Derelict in ALIENS then it would be a NOT MUCH of a Chance of Salvaging anything from INSIDE the Derelict.

None of it really matters much, because IF they give us a Movie that Visits the LV-426/Derelict Site after Hadleys Hopes Destruction then they could have it that the SHIP had suffered Little Damage.... or even the Cargo Hold is Safely Underground.

In either OPTION... we would have to Accept it, regardless if we are like... NO WAY it would have Survived or NO-WAY thats Part of the Ship etc.

If they want to Explore the Eggs on the Derelict after Hadleys Hope Destruction they would make whatever Conveniences for such a PLOT... Contrary to what we may have been shown Prior.

We then have to LOOK at the Neomorphs, these came from the Spore Pods that were located near a Water Supply, the Juggernaut had Crashed onto a Mountain that has a Stream Running down it and so Water would Pour Over and Under the Ship...  and lead to the Stream Below!

If we assume the Spores are from Infected MOLD or FUNGI that has become a Hybrid Carrier of the Pathogen that has Created a Organism that is Spread via the Spores....

Mold, Fungi and Algae are found Near Water/Damp Environments and they are a Form of Organism and so maybe they are Infected by some URNS that had Fallen Over and Leaked from the Cargo Hold after the SHIP had Crashed..

The Effects are Different as these Urns had not become Primed/Activated and Exploded in the Air... or maybe the Pathogen has a Different Effect when MIXED with a Water Supply/Liquid.

Thats my Interpretation of what happened..

However what we are dealing with Really is a Radical Form of McGuffin.... a Substance/Plot Device that can be used and changed to Benefit the Plot for Ease and Convienience.

I think it depends on what Source of Information you use to TRY and work out what is going on...

This Scene we see the Behavior is Different to Prometheus, by watching Prometheus we would ASSUME the Pathogen would do one of these.... (depending on amount of Pathogen and Contact).

1) Replicate and Spread like a Viral Pathogen (Ebola) resulting in the Hosts eventually suffering from TOTAL DNA (Molecular) Break Down into..... Dust/Particles.

2) Infect the Host to become Mutated and taking on Traits that are IN the Black Goo (or Encoded).

3) A Combination where the 1) causes 2) where the Pathogen Replicates and Spreads, and Mutates the Host but then the Host then suffers from TOTAL Genetic Break Down after a Period of Time.

Then we have the Hammerpede and Trillobite which indicates that Certain More Basic Organisms (Worm and Genetic Blank Canvas of a Egg Cell) will instead EVOLVE into something Else..

Of Course these could be Effected by Different Ways the Pathogen is contacted and Amount.

In ALIEN COVENANT we see the Pathogen in the way its Activated and Deployed seems to have some INTELLIGENCE to it, as it SWARMS to seek out a Host, then it Infects the Hosts, Replicates and then Leaves the Host to SEEK another Target.

The Pathogen having such a Force that it would TRY and escape by any means from a Host to the Next, which includes Tearing Holes in them to Escape...

Then we are LEFT with the Desiccated Remains of the Engineers, we see NO Evidence of any Organisms they have Produced or Mutated into...

Is this EFFECT a Programed Reaction and so the Pathogen can be Programed to Effect Certain Genomes/DNA with a Different Outcome such as Re-Write the Genetic Code or Replace the Genetic Cells with Calcified/Desiccated Cells?

What a IDEAL Weapon that is if this is the Case..

Or was some kind of KILL SWITCH Activated on Planet 4 that would Release some Energy Blast or Something that would TURN all Living Matter into Desiccated Matter and THUS would Prevent the Spread of the Pathogen and Effects...

Such a SAFETY Mechanism would make Sense to have on Planet 4 the Release/Use of this could Account for the Juggernaught being knocked out of the SKY!

I think on ONE hand its Interesting to Consider Genetic Memory.... but then we also have to look at what ASH had said, he said the Xenomorph is not Clouded by Remorse or Consciousness and so maybe we have to Assume he could be Correct and IF-SO then if the Host had say any Hate/Prejudice against a Certain Sex then i dont think that would IMPACT the Actions of the Xenomorph, for example if the Host was a Homosexual Male would that make the Xenomorph only Target Males, or attack them Differently to a Female?

I would say NOT if the Xenomorph has no Conscious?

But then surely it could have some Genetic Memory like how Some Organisms have a Instinct/Knowledge that comes from Genetic Memory and so DONT have to Learn about Certain Survival Instincts/Skills or Fears.  They are Passed On Genetically.

Its interesting to WONDER if the Xenomorph does Acquire some Knowledge from its HOST, but to NOT be effected by any Psychological/Emotional Elements of the Host... so for Example the Xenomorph of Kane could have knowledge from him about the Nostromo Ship and the Escape Shuttle, which could explain WHY it could Evade the Crew and also be aware of the Escape Ship and to go and wait there for Ripley.

The Same Applies to ALIENS as far as the Xenomorphs having some Idea of the Lay Out of the Colony Buildings and HOW to Turn off the Power etc....  if they gained such Knowledge from their Hosts Memories.

With Ripley 8 we get True Recollection of Past Memory, but maybe that ONLY applies to HER via the Process of Mixed DNA.

I think something to Consider as far as PUNISHMENT is that we have seen the Xenomorph referred to as a Demon, the Devil if you would...

So as far as a BIBLICAL Punishment.... its Interesting to Wonder about the Eggs being used on a World where the Actions/Aggression and Destruction of a World and its Inhabitants could come down to the HOST Species.... EVILS/SINS...

But i get the Impression they are a Invasive Species who rely on Procreation and the means to this is WHAT becomes a Threat to the Targets...

It would be like SOLVING a Termite Problem with Genetically Engineered Larger Ants that would then WIPE-OUT and Destroy the Termites...

Then your left with the Same Problem but with Genetic Engineered Ants... UNLESS there was a Kill Switch... so that either those Ants would DIE out after a Period of Time and NOT be able to Procreate Past this Point... or you have a Virus or something to Eradicate those Ants.

So you would expect similar to be Applied if the Xenomorph was a Engineered Bio-Weapon (Eradication Tool).

Sorry that went OFF-TOPIC.. but to swing it back, then as a Weapon/Eradication Tool then having Genetic Memory would NOT be a Good Idea to allow such a Weapon.

There Certainly seems to be Some Anti Gravitational Force Applied in the Cargo Hold, we could Wonder if this Force/Event is what Activates/Primes the Urns until they are Ready and then Released... this Priming Method is what would Cause them to Explode and then Rain down the Pathogen in the Manner we see in the Bombardment.

Indeed the Internal Layout of the Juggernauts appears to be a Bit Different, but thats NOT to say that NO TWO Ships need to be the Same Internally ;)

I did this for another Topic... where it shows where i assume the Prometheus Crew Enter to the Cargo Hold then Pilot Room.  This image also shows where the Covenant Cargo Bay was and it appears that the Tunnel from this Cargo Bay must Snake Around on a Incline and Leads to the Pilot Room that appears to be at a Higher Level in this Ship.

There is NO Reason why the Ship Internally cant Change Shape/Size and Levels... maybe its NOT beyond the Technology as the Cargo Hold Hole in Alien Covenant does appear from a Area where there is NO such HOLE.... so their Technology maybe allows for the Material to Morph/Change Shape.

They do look Similar....

But as pointed out they are NOT...

This does-not Rule Out that they could have been Related, so like her Auntie... she could even had been the Last Adult to have been on the Run/Looking after Newt ;)

"So I am not shutting down or disrespecting other peoples entitlement to like or not like something I am simply standing up for recent films and their makers and restoring the truth of how decisions came to be made."

Absolutely and i consider you comments as such, and with respect.

I am actually one of those are Accept the Changes, all i do is try to look at Each Side of the Story, and try and Find some Reasons to Support Different Sides/Views...

I fully Understand and have agreed with Changes and what it is that RS was intending, and things Change as they go along for what ever Purpose, and these Usually are a Change in the Narrative Story, and Changes to be Practical so that Story can be Told.

I am NO Expert or Pretend to be, i have a Passion for the Franchise and i do like to Look in Depth at things.. but then i always to bring about the OVERSIGHT Comment which is a Closing Statement usually to Consider that Regardless of what we may Want/Think or See, that we have to really just Pay Attention to what we are being TOLD and that Discrepancies are things we should OVERLOOK and not be Expected to Nit Pick as then you End Up making some Cases against what they are SHOWING us, but i still think its Fine to  Take Part in Discussions..

ELSE what we should have is Ridley Scott make all the Prequels and ALIEN into some 3 Part Novel a BIBLE where he is Every Word is Gospel and then END any debates and so there would be NO Point to such things....

For the Record while i may offer and look at different sides to each Perspective.... i actually like Prometheus, my Disappointments mainly (apart from some Execution) is our Engineers are a Little on Smaller Side... but as i made a Case Before... NOT every Human is between 5ft10-6ft Tall, so while we have 7.5-8ft Humans... WHY-NOT 9-10ft Engineers and then the Rest of the Size Differences... well as Kane Said... "looks like its Grown out of the Chair"

The other Issue is the David the Creator... i understand the Reasons for it, and it makes Sense, but i feel they could have had him Create something Similar but that is more Superior and THIS would have Fitted the ARC and Story while Maintaining the Mystery of ALIEN and also in showing HOW it was David had Created his OWN Monster we could get a Insight to HOW the Engineers had Created their own Many Thousands of Years Prior.

Its a Shame Really as i think IF it was that RS was allowed to Fully go with what his Plans was after Prometheus then we could have got something Different, but i Understand the PLOT was Too Bold and Complications are bound to happen as far as getting a RIGHT Story and so with Alien Covenant it was a more SIMPLE/BASIC Plot to Follow and Execute.

PS... Sorry Chli if i have taken this OFF TOPIC

Forum- thank you for clarifying.

"However, what Big Dave is trying to argue"

I am sorry if you Interpret my comments as this, i Never Intend to set out as though its a Argument ;)

"They did not Jon Sphaits said they deliberately went for an 8-foot creature rather than a giant elephantine one for storytelling reasons"

Certainly and this is also what i have mentioned before, that for the STORY you needed Certain things to explain HOW/WHY would the Human Characters be Connected, and having a Giant Elephantine Race who Cant Communicate with Mankind or Shares NO History would mean that you have to come up with a PLOT to HOW the Humans would END UP going to the Same System as in ALIEN and then ONCE you have given Answers to ALIEN its where do the Expand on the Space Jockey if it was a ALIEN RACE that has No Way to Communicate with Mankind etc... or History.

The SCALE was just something they thought would be Convenience as the intention of SPAIGHTS was a 15ft Engineer, then this went down to 12ft and then 10ft but they decided to go for whats Practical and to NOT be using Special Effects and so we END up with 8ft Engineers for a similar Reason we END up with Toxic Avenger Fifield.

Some Changes they had No Real Reason for, such as Aesthetically to have the Ship a little Different Internally (Pilot Room Architecture) it was said it was a case of to TONE down the HR Giger Aesthetic a little.

some Changes came about for Plot Convenience such as RS wanted a Scene with the Juggernaught Rolling and so a C Shape was Used instead of the U Shape as that would not Roll.

some Changes are likely for Budget and Time, and so it would have been Easier to have the Cargo Layout on the Same Floor, compared to Extra Cost and Time to show them Enter the Ship and have to go through Corridors that would Snake Around on a Incline, or have Ladders or a Engineer Lift System to other Floors so it was likely a Convenience.

And so while this means there are Differences, those who are Working on the Movie especially as far as Director goes, then its a Case of such things really should not MATTER in Terms of the Story they are trying to TELL...  Ridley Scott had indicated the Ships are NOT the same but Related, well he had inferred they are Separated by Hundreds of Years (bit odd) and they are Brothers, his point really is that the Derelict is a Engineer Ship, the Pilot is Related to the Engineers also, the Differences in Ships does-not mean they Belong to Different Races

What he says could be just a way to get around that there was Differences for a Number of Reasons but we should Consider them to be Very Related and NOT that they are Totally Different...

If they had SCRAPPED the Draft that Lindeloff had did and decided to Produce what Jon Spaights had done, and Replicate what was Described then the SHIPS would have been Very Much Similar, the Space Jockey also similar size to the Engineers.

Plots Change, and Props/Sets can Change a Little to Suit the Needs of the Director and Production as far as to be Convenient to the Next Installment.

By that IF we got another Movie where we are shown a 8ft Engineer gets infected by a Face Hugger, then he Climbs into the Seat of a Juggernaught with the Same Layout as in Prometheus/Alien Covenant, (Pilot Room) and then we see this Ship Flying towards a GAS Giant and then we Cut to the Pilot Getting Chest Busted and then see the Ship Crash on a Similar looking Moon and the LAST SHOT is we see a Chest Buster Run Off then we go down a Shaft/Tunnel and see a EGG Cargo Hold that is NOT as Huge as in ALIEN.

Then if this is the Conclusion, and its what Ridely Scott says is what shows the Space Jockey Fate, then we have to Accept it for what it is, even IF it does-not match what we saw in Alien to a High %.

We can all HOPE they would Pay Attention to Matching the Details, but that does-not mean this is what we would GET and if we get a Conclusion as above then we have to OVERLOOK the Differences, or just Boycott it and Pretend it NEVER happened which is down to what Each Fan wants to Accept or Not.

The Debates and Images i was showing was really to TRY and look at IF or IF-NOT the Egg Cargo Hold would FIT on the Ship so as to see if a Separate Silo could NOT be Ruled out, i have Accepted that in Likely Hood we have to Accept its Part of the Ship and a Oversight (something we have to Overlook as far as Inconsistency)

It was NOT really to Connect the Juggernaught or Discus this Ship, as i was keeping it open to that we have TWO different Ships but both Similar and by the Same Race... a Boeing 737 and Airbus A380 would look VERY Similar to someone who had NEVER seen a Plane before, and while Slightly Different they are the Same.. they are Aeroplanes intended for the Same Purpose.

@Michelle

I do tend to USE the word Oversight a bit, but i use it in the similar Context to what Hox had put in his reply, in that from the Perspective of the Fans as far as we will just have to ACCEPT certain Inconsistencies and Errors as something we have to Overlook.

ULTIMATELY as far as those who are Giving us the Narrative and Story (Producers, Writers and Director) such Inconsistencies are things they would DEEM as not really be Necessary as far as to IMPACT the Plot/Store they wish to Convey and Conclude.

While there are the ODD Difference in Scale and Aesthetic, we have to take into account what they are inferring towards.  So for example while IF we look at the Egg Hold as being something that WONT Fit inside the Ship if we was to Forensically Analyze it, or take what say Kane said as far as its a CAVE... then what it Ultimately comes down to is WHAT those who are giving us this Story/Plot have Intended and IF this is that its part of the SHIP then i guess we have to ACCEPT that and any Inconsistencies are what we would eventually have to Overlook and this is what i refer to when i bring up Oversight, as in on OUR PART...

I do however feel that UNTIL we go to the Derelict again or get a Conclusion that shows us the Ship and HOW/WHEN/WHY it ended up on LV-426 and Until such would show us the Cargo Hold is Part of the Ship then Fans will Speculate on Theories that it MAY-NOT or CAN-NOT be a Part of the Ship.... Until we get a Conclusion then we have to Accept what the Writers/Directors Intend...  But also to BARE in Mind what they Intend can Change.... such as what happened with the Ancient Derelict and its Cargo that if we go by what they NOW seem to intend is something that as of the Year 2105 is NOT on LV-426.....  despite this being the Case Prior to Alien Covenant.

And so i think Until we get a Conclusion on Screen the Debates for what ever reason or Evidence will Continue over the Cargo Hold and How Long the Ship has been on LV-426.

So at the Moment i think Fans are Entitled to make their own Conclusions, or Accept what the Story is as its Told, even if that means they have to Overlook Certain Flaws.

Oh i will Apologize for my use of CAPS and Bold... i do this NOT to Force a Point but to make Certain Points Stand out against the Back Drop of my Many Many Words and not the Best use of Grammar ;)  Because otherwise some KEY points would get Lost like a Needle in a Haystack LOL

Ann Jorden = Newts Mother, played by Holly De Jong as seen in Aliens Special Edition.

@hox

Your getting confused. It's well known that when A L I E N was being made they were constantly changing some of the story logic. There was a point when there were far fewer Eggs on the ship then there was a phase when there was a huge underground silo which the Eggs were contained in. Then post-film the traditions evolved.

However, what Big Dave is trying to argue as he has done so many times is that when they painstakingly designed the props for Prometheus they overlooked the size of the Jockey and the Derelict in the original film. They did not Jon Sphaits said they deliberately went for an 8-foot creature rather than a giant elephantine one for storytelling reasons. They designed the Juggernaut as being the derelict taking into account the Eggs were in the cargo bay. 

I am not denying that the traditions of A L I E N have evolved what I am saying is the decisions made on Prometheus were deliberate. I couldn't care less about the inconsistencies between the two films but I will stand up when peoples identify them as oversights. They are thought out judgements and on record as such.

I went to see ALIEN in 1979 all my friends thought Kane went down a hole in the ship into a Cave. It's only since Ridley began saying it was the cargo on the ship that everyone has started having a view on it. But if you asked Ridley over a latte has the tradition evolved I am sure he would admit it.            

If people say as they do all over the internet I am out of here that isn't the Jockey I am completely cool with that. I am the same I think Covenant is not only a routine film but the narrative logic is bollock's and dismisses Prometheus (which those involved in the film have confirmed) but I do not go on about oversights between mutagens and pathogens and positions of Cargo Bays because I know they were all deliberate choices I just don't believe in the story.

So I am not shutting down or disrespecting other peoples entitlement to like or not like something I am simply standing up for recent films and their makers and restoring the truth of how decisions came to be made.

Let's like or not like a film or elements of it but all this holier than thou armchair filmmaker stuff who knows better is frankly more often than not wrong in its assumptions as to how decisions got made.           

Finnish

Thank you for your interest and I am delighted you enjoyed it. 

I am extremely self-critical but I do think it somehow manages to deal with many of the nuances surrounding the subject of what is existence if you look through the telescope marked intelligent creation.