Comments (Page 186)

@Chli

I apologize for  taking it OFF TOPIC, i was going to make a New Topic or look at another that discussed the LIKELIHOOD or NOT that the Cargo Hold would FIT inside the Derelict, but i noticed this Topic was more Active and Debated such things, as in Relation to the OT.

So with what i had done is to INDEED conclude that Forensically we should be looking at a UNDERGROUND Storage Facility and as such if this is the CASE then in Context to the OT... I think the Potential for their being something Salvageable after the Destruction of Hadleys Hope is Greatly Increased if we have a Underground Facility, compared to the Less Likely chance of Salvaging anything if the Cargo Hold was on-board the Derelict.

@Michelle

Certainly in Terms of the Story, i think its a case of Accepting what they are showing us and Inconstancy would have to be merely a Oversight..  The Derelict and Juggernaut are intended to be Similar they form a Purpose for Carrying Loads of Various Bio-Logical Warfare and so Internally they can be Configured different from Ship to Ship, also likely the Derelict could have been a Older or Newer Model but looking back prior to Alien Covenant you would be drawn to Conclude the Derelict was a Older Model that has been Stranded on LV-426 for a Long Long Time.  And so with the Image Below it could be a case of Same Purpose, just Newer Model and so there would be some Atheistic Differences, but as FAR as the Purpose and Internals then they are supposed to Perform a Similar/Same Task.  And rightfully so with what you mention, we should maybe NOT be drawn too much in Specifics and Differences as they are for the Story Purpose intended to be Very Similar, because they would NOT effect the Overall Plot/Story.

@Michelle

In Follow up to your Last Reply.. 

"I think someone will follow Janek's C.O. and destroy the Derelict"

I think this is VERY Plausible and a Avenue for a Book or Movie, as i mentioned a Few Times before that in ALIENS the Derelict Damage to me does-not look like its from any Natural Event, and so it could be a Attempt was made to DESTROY the Derelict that did-not do the JOB.

@Gavin

Indeed a Avenue could be to Explore a Salvage of the Cargo and WHAT would become of Contaminated Cargo from Radiation...   Some of the Newer Concept Works for Blomkamps Alien 5 do show signs of Mutations and so this could be the Result of a Contaminated Cargo after the Hadleys Hope Destruction, or Experimentation.

And so that leaves it OPEN to explore a Movie that goes back to the Derelict Post 2179 but prior to 2379 and so in Context to the OT its a case of is there anything to Salvage and what Condition are any Eggs that Remain.

Remember when Gearbox Software and SEGA included the 'pups' inside the derelict, obviously assuming before the movies release that they were Engineer/Space Jockey technology.

@chli,

The answers to the op really boil down to three answers...

#1 - Yes - If the derelict somehow avoided destruction from the atmosphere processor explosion, or if the eggs are indeed within a separate structure.

#2 - No - If the derelict was destroyed and the eggs were within the derelicts cargo hold.

#3 - If another movie chooses to return to LV-426 then it all depends upon what the studio/writer decides.

But IMO I still believe that if they do return to LV-426 the eggs should be contaminated forcing 'the powers that be' Weyland-Yutani?) to look elsewhere for more sources of the Xenomorph.

chli

As to your question are the Eggs still there the answer is its 2019 so Yes. (haha)

As to whether they will be there deep in the future. I think in the profoundly dysfunctional world of A L I E N I do not think mankind will ever learn its lesson. But in the even-handed world of P R O M E T H E U S, I think someone will follow Janek's C.O. and destroy the Derelict.     

"I think what we have to Remember is the Derelict and Juggernaut are TWO Different Ships and so we CANT expect the Dimensions and Layout to be Similar."

@BD

If I may I would like to unpack this statement. 

If you were making a presentation to a group of prop movie design workers your statement is indeed correct. The way the props were made in 1978 and then 2011 was not signed off on the basis of forensic similarity.

However, in terms of the story being told the derelict/juggernaut relationship is exactly the same as the jockey/engineer relationship. We as an audience should take them as the same.      

Here is why.

In the furious gods documentary, it is made very clear when they are replicating and when they are trying to be different. No one ever mentions making the Juggernaut smaller for the simple reason there is no reason to. It's considered to be the same craft.

To give a contra example they very deliberately evolved the design of the craft above the waterfall from originally being a Juggernaut to something different, it's in the Pre Viz, but when they decided that the Waterfall incident and its participants were separated by millions of years from the Moon guys and had a different agenda they went for something radically different.       

There is one final piece of evidence originally the craft that fell out of the sky was the derelict and there is no evidence they changed the design when the story was altered.

So your right it's not an identical prop but in story terms its the same craft with some internal modifications. Like the Derelict its a bomber just with a different Cargo.  

Thank you for the analysis, BigDave. I suppose we can't come any further than this. What is good is that another alien movie could go either way.

It would be acceptable that the movie had as a premise that it is, in fact, an underground facility which a group enters after digging up the Derelict from the devastation from the nuclear explosion.

It would, of course, also be possible to accept that the eggs are in a cargo hold in the Derelict.

But this topic was actually about whether the eggs are still there . . . :)

I was thinking the other day about some of the Images i made, and how its HARD to Judge due to Camera Angle of the Cargo Hold, so i made this Image to Estimate how many Section of the Egg Storage Chambers would FIT along the Width of the Derelict.

This ONLY shows that to Scale it would NOT Fit, but that does-not mean that it CAN or WILL only be explained as a Underground Storage Facility/Silo.

It could be just a matter of Accepting its OVERSIGHT or maybe we could Accept the Technology of the Cargo Hold is similar to that of the TARDIS from Dr Who?

Until we have a Conclusion to the Prequels that would Directly show us the Ship and Cargo Hold and WHERE/WHAT it is...  or UNTIL we have another Movie that Re-Visits the Derelict then its still OPEN to Debate unless we ACCEPT the Explanation that Ridley Scott has given and then Accept its a Oversight.

EDIT:

I will add that taking into account the Arms and Curve of the Ship then IF the Ship was 40ft Higher, then the Ship would FIT about 10 of those Egg Sections. But for this to WORK then it would mean the SHOT from ALIEN would have to ONLY show 3-4 Sections in that SHOT... i assume we can see AT LEAST about 10 Sections.

So a 40ft Taller Derelict that is 2-3X Wider would FIT the Cargo Hold...  

@hox

This is the Quickest thing to get out of the way, Certainly they could explain those who had Built/Created the Derelict have some kind of Technology that is like what the TARDIS used, i have suggested this a few times over the Years, such a Revelation would be a Convenience to the Plot/Discrepencies, its a case of would FANS start to say its NOT Original and is just going to RIP off Dr Who and be a Lazy Explanation... but its a Easy Explanation that would END any debates about the Size of the Hold and HOW it can not be part of the Ship...   and so i cant see WHY NOT as far as the Derelict having similar Technology.

@chli

I dont think its Impossible for the Pilot Chair to Retract into a PIT of Sorts....  Kane Descended right on the Edge of the Platform and he could have Descended at a Angle, or a way around could be like in this IMAGE.

@Michelle

Certainly the Vulva Openings in Prometheus seem to be about 28ft Total, in Alien they appear to be 20-22ft. The Entrances (bottom of Vulva's) seem to Start about 12ft off the Base of the Derelict (in Alien Rocks Obscure this) with Prometheus Juggernaut they appear to be about 20ft off the Ground.

These Entrances are still quite a bit Lower than the Mid-Section of the Ships, but with Prometheus we are shown the MAIN Entrance to the Juggernaut appears to be at what we would think is the REAR but turns out to be the Front.

What seems Strange is the Pilot Room seems Directly behind where that Entrance would be and so WHY does it seem the Prometheus Crew Enter at a Different Area?

I think as with ALIEN and the Entering the Ship Scene we are maybe NOT shown every Step they take on Film, but with Prometheus it would seem there is NOT much of a Walk from the Cargo Hold to the Bulkheads/Front of the Juggernaught.

And so looking at the Image it does-not make much Sense.. it must be the Entrance does-not Directly take you to the Pilot or Cargo Rooms, but it would Snake Around a bit...

So i have tried to think where the Prometheus Crew would have Entered and Walked to the Pilot Room, i then also Pin Pointed where the Covenant Crew would have Entered, which INDEED was a Bottom Layer as they Ascended up to get to the Pilot Chamber, but it seemed they also Descended at a Point too.

I think what we have to Remember is the Derelict and Juggernaut are TWO Different Ships and so we CANT expect the Dimensions and Layout to be Similar.

However with the Juggernauts they appear to have Different Internal Layouts... this is a Error, but it is LIKELY done for the reasons you mentioned Michelle...

While we can Wonder otherwise WHY it seems they never paid attention to MATCH the Ships (Prometheus/Alien Covenant) there is NO reason why Internally the Ships can Differ, as a Example some of the Larger Aircraft that we have can be Same Model but Internally they are laid out Differently due to performing different Tasks.

Also who is to say the Engineers Technology means the Ships Internal Structure can Morph to Desired requirements for a Given Task.

In Closing.....

I have to agree with what you had USED in your work on Prometheus as far as the Ship should have had Cargo Holds to a Lower Level than the Pilot Chamber.

@BigDave, in the picture at the top of this thread, there is a tunnel in the far distance that snakes off to the left. It appears to have quite a lot of light coming from it. Any thoughts as to how that can be?

The whole (very large) thing is probably most easily explained by it being an underground cave complex that the ship is sitting on. But... here's one for your abacus!... if the inside of Dr. Who's Tardis can be a lot bigger than the outside, maybe the ship can be, too.

Gentlemen

Finally on the entrances.

On the original model, the vulva like entrance is at floor level and three circular elements almost at mid heights.

In Prometheus, the vulva entrances are considerably higher and D and E rappel down from the Vulva entrances at bridge level which would contradict the hologram images the Prometheus received with the heat signatures. (BD's point)

I kept with the original external design the Vulva entrances take you into the Cargo Bay you then in the standard variant climb a ships ladder (homage to Kane) on to the Bridge and the three circular elements are an emergency escape entrance and escape pods from the bridge. I found climbing ships ladders to the various levels communicated scale which works well in A. but is not there in P.    

chli

Spot on about the chair and the area where Kane descends into.

There are two points to this discussion:-

1) How do we interpret what we see which was the point of your posting?

2) Is it a relevant concern to each one of us?

My view on this subject that Ridley filmed a huge subterranean area which as the years went by became the Cargo of the derelict. That the matter is not forensically logical does not give me any concern nor I need to come up with plausible tenuous logic.

Quite separately from my view of the movies for my own vision I decided the consul, chair, propulsion and the origins of the craft can be wound into all the main character and story themes and all the design considerations feed into the story. 

Ingeniero was kidding but made a good point about Walter. Information and situations can change on a planet. Things may not be as hospitable for humans by the time they arrive. It might be a good idea to send Bishop, Call and Walter as the over all leaders and together could carry out navigation, exploration, recon and such with a human crew with different levels of expertise. They would be in hyper sleep pending the synths' navigation and assessment of the planet and situation to ensure their safety to carry out the mission. If it is ok, the crew would be awakened. If not, they could return home. I would not include Ash or David since they are basically corrupt in their own ways and may not hold the humans' safety as a priority due to Special Orders.

Well, the problem of having the pilot room in middle hight and the cargo hold under it is that the three openings would lead into it and the pilot chair would come down through the roof of it when not used. This is only possible if the area which Kane descends into is MUCH smaller or we are dealing with different kinds of juggernauts.

Anyway, I think that the view that the Derelict is connected to the outbreak on LV-223 is preferable (no David involved) but that an underground area filled with eggs (which might have been there even before the Engineers got there) tickles imagination . . .

"Just to be absolutely clear the Urn Room and the Bridge in Prometheus are the same set"

The Estimates and Calculations i was presenting are regarding the ALIEN Set and not Prometheus, sorry i should have made that more Clear ;)

But regardless, it does show in both cases that Ridley Scott likes to try and Recycle Sets to Save on Money and Time and that there is NO point in Building Extra Height or Parts of the Set that can be added by CGI..  The Big Head Statues in Alien Covenants room the Hall of Heads were likewise only a % as the Rest would be added by CGI.. which i think is the Point you was raising which is VERY Valid. (in Relation to Sets).

"Bridge on the upper level with the Cargo Bay directly below it."

Totally Agree it is what makes Sense, and the Concepts seemed to Indicate the Main Entrance would be Accessed at a Level that was about Half-Way of the Height of the Ship.  I think they made a Error with the Hologram Map Scene, they should have had the Corridors at a Higher Level.

And so Michelle you are Correct Ultimately as far as in the END such Inconsistency will NOT matter as all that matters is what the Director Chooses would be ideal to FIT the Purpose for the Story/Plot they are trying to Tell and so Changes to the Aesthetics and Dimensions can be Changed to Suit....   And so IF and WHEN we get any Conclusion the Fans have to Accept what is shown and any Contradictions or Discrepancies would be just Oversight.

PS... i like your changes regarding the Crew of the Prometheus walk above the Cargo Holds and Dr Shaw discovers them Separately, i think that would have WORKED so much better ;)

"He has done exactly the same with the Engineers except in that case its budgetary restraints that lead to the look of the Engineers in Covenant."

I felt the same and was Puzzled as Budget Wise it would NOT have Cost a lot to have Black Eye Contacts and a bit more Paint/Make Up...  But it was the Comments by Ridley Scott that these Engineers (Planet 4) are the Originals and then when looking at some of the Themes and how RS had said the Replicants are AI... then to me i think maybe the IDEA is that those LV-223 Engineers are like the Engineers versions of Replicants and so the LV-223 Engineer had more in Common with David. Thats how i Interpret it... maybe we will NEVER find out though.

I said before i had a IDEA on how the Cargo Hold could Snake around the Ship, but this IDEA is a bit Moot Considering these.

*My Scale Height would mean the Whole Derelict would have to be 40ft Taller.

*To the Same Scale the Cargo Hold Sections and Number of them would Require the Derelict to be 2-3X Wider.

However here is my Explanation that i think Works apart from SIZE!

BigDave

Just to be absolutely clear the Urn Room and the Bridge in Prometheus are the same set. 

That stage is a maximum of 15 metres high and if you watch the Furious Gods segment where Jon Sphaits visits and several other stills of the set you can see the practical set takes us right to the top of the Concave Walls and the head is above that with a gap of about 2 meters to the roof of the building. This makes the actual Headroom and the Actual Bridge with a CGI 'cap' over the top about 18 metres.

hox

In A L I E N the cargo bay/cave is directly underneath the bridge. 

In Covenant, the cargo bay is directly under the bridge. 

So for me, Prometheus with the Cargo Bay in the next segment to the left as you look at the Horseshoe feels contrived for theatrical reasons wonderful as it is.

To be honest I am not wired with the need to find more to it than each time Ridley makes a film with a Juggernaut he changes the design to suit the needs of his story. He has done exactly the same with the Engineers except in that case its budgetary restraints that lead to the look of the Engineers in Covenant. What I do know is for the general audience it's not helpful.   

BigDave

My view of ambiguity is quite different from yours for two reasons.

1) To me, they are distractions from themes, story and character. Arthur Max puts it perfectly for me you can have all the clever designs you like but what you need is story and character. 

2) Ridley storyboards and makes the narrative fit the storyboards. For a single movement story that is fine but one of Ridley's failings with this sequence of films is he takes his audience out of the story by having so much inconsistency and either causes watcher fatigue or endless debates. If you complete a multi-movement story it has to be symphonic with themes and ideas recurring to gain your commitment and gives the story more emotional weight.

When I wrote my rule book for my work I knew the design of the Juggernaut before I started. Some might argue it is restricting to be tied down I found it liberating and it can lead to more invention. Just one example

Bridge on the upper level with the Cargo Bay directly below it.

As the party approaches the pilot chamber David takes them directly to the upper level avoiding the cargo bay of Urns making the parties reaction more plausible they do not react because they do not see them. Equally, Elizabeth in warrior mode pulls back and takes the alternative entrance and discovers the Urns and relays the feed to Janek one on one. She holds back listens to David whilst he pontificates and then emerges confronts him and that knowledge gained by subterfuge underwrites naturally her intervention with the woken dark angel where she is clearly operating alone and so much so that Weyland threatens to have her shot if she utters another word.

The Juggernauts could have all been different because they are organically grown rather than designed and that may even have story potential but in this instance all the visual clues and the story point to many craft that are externally identical and painstakingly so. Equally, you could tell a story where they are Bio-Mechanically fabricated and corralled what matters is not which idea you pursue but what storytelling value it has not what discussion value it has for a confused audience.

To conclude and its the point I made above the very things people discuss endlessly here are the very things that put a cap on the broader audience wanting more.      

I think the MAIN thing is what they Intend to show us, as a lot can be put down to OVERSIGHT and No Matter how much a Conflict that may seem, we maybe are NOT supposed to look at it in Detail.

Prior to the Prequels it was Pretty Much up for Debate..

*Part of the Ship

*Underground Storage Facility

Doubt any or many had a idea about a Detachable Cargo Compartment so lets RULE that out (in Light of the Length of the Cargo Storage being what 400-600M) But then this could be said about it NOT being a Part of the Ship in Light of this...  Smoking Gun!

So the MAIN thing really is what they INTEND and any Inconstancy we have to ACCEPT as Oversight... or we can use it to put our MIND and Opinion at Peace.

Back Prior to the PREQUELS we had one of TWO Options.

1) The Derelict was Carrying its Cargo and the Pilot was Infected and he had SET down a Course to Quarantine the Cargo on a near by  Baron Moon (we can only Speculate where the SHIP had come from and where it was Going).

2) The Derelict was Docked with a Underground Storage Facility and the Pilot was Infected while he was either Transporting something to the Storage Facility, or attempting to take something from the Storage Facility.

The Second Option is NOT what Ridley Scott had intended and explained for Many Years now... but it does-not have to Contend with the Dilemma that the Egg Chamber is TOO LARGE to be Part of the Ship.

By going for Option 2 what we have is that LV-426 has a Very Large Underground Facility, is this the ONLY ONE?

The PREQUELS had kind of Muddy the Waters a bit, Ridley Scotts explanation (off screen) seemed to indicate the Derelict had LEFT the LV-223 Outpost but only got as FAR as LV-426 before the Pilot was Chest Busted.

If the Derelict was intended to be similar to the Juggernauts then if they have a similar LAY-OUT then there is NO-WAY the Juggernaught would have a Cargo Hold like shown in ALIEN underneath it.

If we accept Option 2 at this Time (2012) then you could Speculate that the Juggernauts would USED to either..

a) Take the LV-223 Experiments to Store on LV-426

b) Take the Eggs from LV-426 to LV-223 to be Experimented on.

The BIG PROBLEM... if we Accepted Option 2 is ALIEN COVENANT...

Within 17.5 Years we have to have David do what ever Shenanigans he is going to do, but then to what Discover on LV-426 a Empty Storage Facility to then take his EGGS in Many Many Thousands?  And Transport them from A-B (where B is the Underground Facility) the Underground Facility would have to already be there RIGHT?

Because to have David also Construct Such a Facility within that Period would sound VERY VERY VERY Unlikely.

In Context to the OT...

If we Accept Option 2 then it is POSSIBLE that some Eggs would surely be Salvageable from the Underground Facility.

However.... Inconsistency aside... i think the PLAN would have been and still LIKELY would be that the Derelict was Carrying the Cargo of Eggs and was either Leaving LV-223 or Heading Towards LV-223 before the Pilot began to go through the Process of knowing he was about to Give Birth to a ALIEN!

The CULPRIT really being the Length that the Cargo Hold appears to be going around in the Kane scene that used the Matt Painting Back Ground.

Certainly i agree the CARGO HOLD/SILO does look HUGE, but a thing to remember is Perspective the Camera shot gives the Greater Impression the Room is Large.

So i thought it would Warrant some Calculations.

Now while the Calculations of the Sections Width i think are Correct to a 0-15% Margin of Error, it really is HARD to Gauge how many of these Sections there are in the SHOT..... I had Marked up to the Corner where there has to be 6-8 Sections by then at 20-25 Feet a Section, i think we can RULE OUT any Chance of this Egg Chamber being PART of the Ship.

So looking at this then i think the Underground Storage Facility Theory becomes more VALID.

Any trying to WORKOUT where the Pilot and Egg Chamber should FIT in the Derelict as FAR as Height could be MOOT!  As it would seem the Compartments Length is the SMOKING GUN.

The only PROBLEM that is Raised NOW if we ASSUME there is NO WAY the Egg Hold can be Part of the Ship due to the WIDTH is that NOW we have to Assume the PILOT Room is more CLOSER to the BASE of the Derelict.

Subterranean Area

In film as well as literary criticism, you can either judge or interpret what you actually see or read, or you can go outside the work to find answers (interviews with directors or scriptwriters e.g.). Or you can do both.

I agree with Michelle that Giger’s matte painting of the descending Kane depicts an enormous subterranean area filled with thousands, perhaps millions, of eggs. Kane himself says “A cave! A cave of some sort!”. This is what you actually see (or hear).

We all know that there have been different scripts (Star Beast e.g.) and there are economical as well as technical problems concerning scale etc. We have interviews with Scott. If I’m not mistaken, Scott mentioned that there was a connection between the Space Jockey, Derelict and the outbreak on LV-223 and that something in the cargo hold evolved (and got to the Space Jockey). That is what we get if we go outside the work itself. Then, the egg chamber is a part of the Derelict.

BigDave, I think you had a good picture series which showed that the Derelict doesn’t have a cargo hold under the (huge) pilot room. There are cargo holds in the “arms”, however. So, if we stick to this, and Kane is lowered down from the pilot room, it would have to be a subterranean area (or a separate silo)?

I have made a Final (Honest) Revision to a Potential get around the Cargo Hold.   Scenes are Scaled with each other and then i have attempted to MOVE the Pilot Chamber as High as i think it would go in order to keep with the % we see on Screen (SET Canopy Level), then placed Cargo Hold under that and i Estimate if the Derelict was 10M Taller then BOTH would FIT, so thats NOT as Big a Oversight.

This HOWEVER only Considers the Height... the other Dimensions such as how the Cargo Hold seems to Snake Around the Corner could be a PROBLEM still.

I have a Slight Work Around that would maybe Conflict the Bulge at the Bottom though.

@Ingeniero

Good Point with the Thundercats, i had suggested a Number of Times that maybe they posses Technology like the TARDIS from DR Who...  such a Revelation would be a Real Convenience for the Inconsistencies.

Something to Remember i feel is we are talking a VERY ANCIENT and ADVANCED Technology, if we look at the Opening in Alien Covenant as far as the Cargo Hold, it appears to OPEN from where there is NO visible HOLE prior.

So there Technology could allow for Cargo Holds and Interior Construction to MOVE, to Shrink and Grow.  In my previous post the Image i Posted, if we look at Images 3, 4 and 5 we can see there is a HOLE that appears in Image 3/4 that is NOT apparent on Image 5, its like the Material of the Ship can Morph.  So why cant Internally it do the same?

@hox

Back to the Differences, then we maybe should not be looking at WHY there are differences with the Derelict and Juggernaut, the Derelict seems to LACK any Cryo-Pods, well they are NONE in the Pilot Room, maybe this Different Ship has them Located in another Place?    Maybe it only has the Pilot Chair and requires just a SINGLE Pilot?

I really liked the Scene of the Raising Pilot Chair, and i cant see any reason why the Derelict could not have the same.

The Purpose of the Pilot Chair does remain a Mystery, is it something that is ONLY required for TAKING OFF?

Once David had placed Dr Shaw in Cryo-sleep he Wonders off and leaves the Pilot Chair unattended but raised.  He is also NOT at the Controls during the Bombardment Scene and so its likely not 100% Necessary to remain in the CHAIR for Deployment of the Cargo or to Fly the Ship... well for the Ship to Fly.

So in effect its USE could be similar to the Deployment and Retraction of the LANDING GEAR on a Airplane.

Certainly LETO there are some Inconsistencies... we get this quite a bit and its the reason we have such Discussions as this, due to Production not really being VERY Consistent, i think most of the Time we are expected to just see this as Oversight.

So you make a Valid Point, in that we Should-Not use the Juggernaught to try and Figure Out the Internal Dimensions and Schematics of the Derelict.  They are TWO separate Ships, and Ridley Scott said they are Separated by a Few Hundred Years... i would argue that the Technology would NOT change that much for a Race who have been using these Ships for Many Thousands of Years and so having them be Thousands of Years apart makes more Sense, but then who is to say they are NOT produced around the same Time but are Different, as NOT every Car or Plane or Ship on Earth are the Same.

@Michelle

The Good Thing about the Ambiguity, the Comments by Kane and what Ridley Scott had said, is that by the TIME we eventually get Answers it leaves it open to SHOW the Cargo Hold as either Inside the Ship or Separate, so when their is a Inconstancy and Shadow of Doubt it allows for things to be Changed and also for people to debate stuff and so actually the Flaws have been a Good thing.

You make a GREAT point about the Canopy... which is where in the NEW Movies they would add CGI over, but in ALIEN they dont show above this... only as far as the Descending to the Chamber by Kane in which case Matt Paintings are used.

I would assume the SET they used for the Egg Chamber covers about 50% of the Height we see from the Matt Painting Shot, and they use the same SET background for the Pilot Chamber which i assume we are only shown 60-75% of the Total Pilot Room Height/Structure.

Once we get down to real math...I'm not sure anything fits Gavin.  I think that's why I liked your (if memory serves) spatial dimension expansion juggernaut theory a while back...similar to the "Forever Bag" from Thundercats in concept.  The theory seemed to address all the unreconcilable measurements, projections.

So I believe you're correct regarding an upright chair fitting under the pilot's chamber.   The chair may be at an angle, winding out into place, similar to the larger ship on Planet 4 rising out of an impossible recess seen below.

Wayne Haag

Juggernaut Opening

"Directly under the control cabin. And the bomb hatch is also pretty large compartment. On Juggernaut hologram in Prometheus just no place for this compartment. It is not there at all!"

The room you describe Leto may be this room below.

I believe the urns fall out of these stacks then roll up the walls to coalesce above, ready to drop like we saw on Planet 4 in Alien: Covenant. 

Thank you for bringing it up...the sequence is amazing.

Alien: Isolation

The ovomorph cavern is pretty clear in the Alien: Isolation short around the 2:00 mark.  The opening looks melted when looking back up at the tripod.

Below are still shots from the short film enhanced to bring out details in the ovomorph cavern walls, depth.  

The novels describe the slime falling off the Xenomorphs collecting to form their signature environment.  

Whatever melted out of the Space Jockey chamber might have started the processes that eventually filled out the massive space.

@Michelle, Who knows? Maybe they have a disco in there before departure. Or they have a little congregation to have a look at the map, in the same way that David did.

It is clear from the end of Prometheus that the pilot's chair can be swung into action in a matter of minutes. In a very ergonomic manner!

Two Engineers had entered stasis in the Pilot room. The revived one, as we know, and another whose pod was breached by a large hole. Whether that was from inside or out, we don't know.

Since we don't know what happened in the final moments before the apparent demise of the Pilot, we can only guess where he was and what he was up to.

hox

As "we are them they are us" the logic would be they clear the chair away so they can do what?

OK, let's accept that idea.

In the context of the story, David had found they were in the process of leaving when everything went to pot. The pilots must have been in station, they were wearing their helmets and ran for there lives. One of them, not the pilot, had already entered stasis so departure was imminent.

If the craft were not about to leave then why have the chair hidden away and the consul in place? They clearly are part of the command hub of the vehicle.

What is communicated to me is once the pilot is in lockdown with the helmet on he remains connected to the crafts control systems throughout the flight? So the only time you would clear the decks of chairs is when the craft is unused for long periods of time, this was not such a time.  

I remain of the view it is a great theatrical coup for the ALIEN audience looking on waiting for connections.       

So, after 40 years of debate whether or not the egg silo is part of the derelict or a separate structure remains unanswered.

Yet rather than explore this Scott instead wants to further explore a relatively newly introduced character while retroactively undoing the mystery and alien nature of the first movie.

Still, at least the Alien movies have never killed off any main characters as Dark Fate has... oh shit wait!?!

It was indeed a fabulous visual coup, but I don't know why you say it lacks ergonomic logic. What is the point of having a pilot's chair getting in the way of things until it is actually needed? Put it in a cupboard under the floor! In my opinion, having the chair appear from a hidden compartment was a nice 'alien technology' touch.

chli

A L I E N 

The matte painting you kindly offered from the movie is depicting a huge subterranean area which bends to the left and then bends to the right before finally swinging to the left. If for instance, you consider the number of ovoids there are from left to right it would make the width of the area between 75 and 100 metres.

P R O M E T H E U S

As you know from the Making of Prometheus documentary artistic licence was applied to the scale of the dead pilot, he is 8 feet tall and the craft although identical visually is smaller. The depth and height of the craft are 27 metres with the additional circular detail and dome taking us to 30 metres. To give some context you could place 4 1/2 Airbus A 380's on top of each other inside the craft.

Scale. 

One of the magical elements of cinema is making a space look bigger than you imagine it. In that context, the entire Pilot Chamber/Ampule Room in P R OM E T H E U S was built on the 007 Stage at Pinewood which is 12 to 15 metres high. So the ampule room and bridge are with a  CGI canopy for the latter no more than 18 metres high. Anyone who has been in a room 18 metres high will know that feels huge for a person at less 2 metres high. 

None of this had anything to do with Prometheus: The Furious Gods where in my original very long forward I explain how I take design elements of all three craft (A/P/AC) and blend them for key storytelling elements.   

The thousands of Eggs look like they're in a huge silo and to me, that is what the Matte Painting conveys. 

PS The reveal of the Gantry in Prometheus was a fabulous visual coup of Ridleys to say "see this is where the derelict and its pilot comes from" but it lacks ergonomic logic but hey this is entertainment.    

Looking at the Pilot Chair in Prometheus i think it would FIT

This is already contrary to Alien: Covenant.

You forgot about one important thing. In AC, when David bombards Engineers (or Covenant crew enters the ship) - the bomb hatch is also located in the center of the ship. Directly under the control cabin. And the bomb hatch is also pretty large compartment. On Juggernaut hologram in Prometheus just no place for this compartment. It is not there at all!

So, a logical conclusion suggests itself. The Juggernauts in Prometheus and AC have different structures, compartments and sizes. If so, then the Juggernaut and Derelict may also have different parameters. Therefore, you cannot use the sizes, holograms and scheme of Juggernaut from Prometheus to explain the structure of the Derelict. They are different.

Looking at the Pilot Chair in Prometheus i think it would FIT

The Scale i did was to compare to the Tunnel Height leading up to the Pilot Room and Scaled the Schematic of the Chair to it...  NOW the True Chair may have a Slightly Different Scale, or if its accurate the SCALE i have USED could be a bit too Large so the Chair could be a bit Smaller than i had shown.

In either case i think its Highly Likely the Chair can FIT under the Pilot Room...  But there is NO WAY the Cargo Hold in ALIEN can FIT under the Juggernaught Pilot Room ;)

Back to the Derelict..... if we go for a Underground Cargo Hold then this Cargo Hold would ONLY be as TALL as the Derelict approx.  The other OPTION as i mentioned before is if the Derelict has a PART of it that is Buried and it is SHOWN that this is another 60ft, or even 40ft Min then we can Suspend our Disbelief a little.

I said this on another Topic...

If this is a Bio-Weapon and its PART of the Ship then HOW do they Deploy it? Bounce the Eggs?

Manually Take them outside? or do they have a Device for that?  or is it a Suicide Mission where the Pilot Remains wit the Ship and waits for some Inhabitants of the World to come and Wonder on the Ship and make it to the Cargo Hold?

If we assume the Ship is Docked at a Underground Egg Silo, then its a case of HOW do they get the Eggs to and from that Place?  Storage would not be a Problem if the Derelict is like the Juggernaught as we can then assume the Eggs are collected from the Underground Silo and Stored in Cargo Holds Located connected to the Pilot Room and in the ARM Sections. (like the Juggernaught appears to have).

I still think a Detachable Cargo Hold would be the Best Option to explain it and make sense as a SAFE Weapon to Deploy.

EDIT:

Derelict to Scale of SHOTS of Lambert, Dallas and Kane as they Enter the Derelict, and also the Pilot Chamber and Kane as he is Lowered into the Egg Chamber.

Looking at this i would say the Derelict needed about another 30-60ft (Depends on TOTAL Height of the Pilot Room) or our Humans in Each Shot need to be about 4ft!

I think its a little difficult to come to a EXACT Measurement of the Derelict because we have the Following.

*Large (ish) External Prop of the Derelict

*Larger Outdoor Set of the Entrance

*Internal Set of the Pilot Chamber (does not show full shot)

*Internal close up set of the Egg Hold (same as Pilot Room)

*Matt Painting used for the Descent into the Cargo Hold.

Each shot the Scale is NOT really Uniform..

The above Image shows Little Figurines intended to show the Scale which would put the Derelict about the 155ft Height Mark, but if we go by how BIG the Nostromo Crew where compared to the Entrances then we get a Height of 120ft Approx.  The Debate about SCALE and so IF the Cargo Hold Fits really RESTS down to TWO Shots, and they are....  The Crew Entering the SHIP and the shot of Kane Descending.  You cant really use the Pilot Room shots as we get TWO Scales... the First Shots (used Child Actors) and the Close Up Shots (Adult Actors) so thats a Scale Change of 40-50%

As far as HOW the Entered, as Gavin pointed out we cant 100% Gauge how FAR the Walk was until they Climbed Up into the Pilot Chamber.... and also it looked like for a Part of the Entrance it was on a Incline, before it Straightened out a bit... then they Climbed up.

Its also difficult to use the Schematic of the Juggernaught as they are TWO different Ships as far as Dimensions go, i will do a Image Next if we Accept its the same Layout as the Juggernaught.

I have also Gavin taken the Image you did, and Scaled a SHOT from the Movie to the Same Size and Position and then Scaled the Egg Cargo Shot to the Same Scale.

Its HARD to really Gauge the True Size as the Best Comparison we could do is SCALE the Egg Chambers Kane and the Images of Dallas, Lambert and Kane as they ENTER the Derelict and Scale them to the Same Size.  And match them to same Scale with the Space Jockey Scene Shot.

As for the Bulkspace between Floors i have watched ALIEN again and to me it has to be between 1.5M and 3M

@ Ingenrio,

Compelling evidence, that could sway me back to the belief that the derelict was docked atop a subterranean structure similar to the domes on LV-223, but first, an observation for everyone to explain based on the images in your post...

The chair doesn't fit underneath the pilot's chamber.

Ingeniero

I agree and in the novelization, there is no ascension after they enter the Derelict. The pilot room is huge with a high ceiling and as you point out, there must also be room for the pilot chair to be lowered down.

In the novelization, Kane is lowered down with a cable and there is first a very long hole that he descends through. Then, he enters the huge open space and they argue whether it's part of the ship or something else under it (a cave or a silo).

If there is a bulge on the Derelict going under ground level, then there must be a hole in the ground which fits it (but I don't think we see that kind of bulge on any juggernauts). So the answer must be that there is a cave or a silo under the Derelict (but with the same kind of esthetics).

But, of course, we have to take the problem of making the film into account and the history of different scripts etc . . .

Kane’s Descent

“Out of breath again he paused in his descent to run a check of his suit instrumentation. ‘Interesting,’ he said into his pickup. ‘I’m below ground level’.”

Alien novelization (1979), page 80.

Prometheus

The below images may help with scale in regards to the pilot's chair and the recess it resides in.

The Prometheus Crew entering into the pilot's chamber below is almost level with the openings on the side of the juggernaut.  This is a different ship but the internal layout may be the same.

@chli,

...or a series of corridors and a shaft adjacent to the cargo hold, leading to the pilot's chamber atop the cargo hold.

A problem is the vastness of the "cargo hold". When Kane is lowered down into it, it looks more like a huge cave. In your picture, Gavin, with the Space Jockey very high up, everything under it would be the "cargo hold". All three openings would lead into the "cargo hold".

REALLY excited for both the game and the novel! Alien: Isolation will probably forever be my favorite game, but having , "massive," Alien shooter offers promise. I think it is wild that Disney allowed it to continue being made after The Merger, considering the profit issue of Isolation. A shooter may attract a wider audience though. 

The novel sounds... Promising, but the recent Alien novels have either been great or awful imo, so I can't be too excited until I read it. It does get old at times reading about all of these (seemingly countless) outposts with Alien specimens and outbreaks, but I just love the franchise and want more. So,yeah. Hopefully both the novel and game live up to my hype!

@chli,

We cannot with absolute certainty claim that every step we saw Dallas, Kane, and Lambert take while within the derelict is every step they will have actually taken. This technique is commonly used, such as showing someone depart for and then arrive at their destination, with the journey in between either edited or omitted entirely.

@ BigDave,

IMO, and it is my opinion only I believe you have the scale somewhat wrong, here is the same picture of the derelict prop you have used but with where I believe the space Jockey is, and its approximate size in relation to the vessel...

As I see it, Dallas, Kane, and Lambert enter the middle (or left), vaginal entrance by just walking on the rocky ground. So the opening is quite close to the ground. Then, as far as we can see in the movie, they walk straight on until Kane sees that he can climb up on a shelf (perhaps two metres up). When they have climbed up, they are next to the Space Jockey. This would mean that they are, say, 6 metres from the ground. But as Kane is lowered through the hole, they need a winch and a very long rope and you can see that he is lowered down into a huge cave (which Kane thinks it is). I would guess that he is lowered down at least 30 metres (which would be under the Derelict).