New Replies (Page 186)
"I have read this several times and I don't understand what you are trying to say"
This is purely in Context to the Topic by Chli and in Context to about IF the Xenomorph has the ability to take on Psychological/Emotional Traits of the Host and how this would be Ideal or Not for a Engineered Weapon.
What i was talking about was in CONTEXT to the Xenomorph being a Biological Weapon that is Engineered, then that IF that is the Case then allowing for this Intended Parasitic Weapon to have some kind of Genetic Memory and especially in Terms of being able to Carry Over and become Influenced by the Hosts Psychological/Emotional Traits would NOT be a ideal Component you would want for a Biological Weapon.
So i t was not anything to do with your idea.
But i will have a look at your Idea in Context to the OT now,
Ok so forgive but i have YET to read your work, and i really must look into it as it seems a Interesting Twist to the Story ;)
I had said in my Post about maybe some traits could be passed on from the Hosts Knowledge, but i Understand you are referring more to Instinct and i feel in that Context then Mankinds Instincts are to a degree Very Much like a Animals our Primal Instinct is to Survive, to Feed, to Procreate and then Protect our Off-Spring and as such these Priorities are something that Mankind would go to Extreme Lengths to Carry Out, which would be to KILL if its Needed to Accomplish this.... at this Base Level we are No-More than other Primates...
But then Mankind has other Traits such as Empathy, Reason and Love and Compassion and these are more Influenced by Experience and Environment, i would assume you are referring to more Primal Instincts than these, and so these are NOT picked up on by the Xenomorph Organism, which also applies i Guess to some Negative Traits like Greed for Power and Pleasure in the Suffering of others... so i think also a Xenomorph would not pick up on these.
If we look at our Primal Traits then the Xenomorph does appear to be Similar, it Strives to Survive, to Feed, to Grow and to Procreate and for this it Requires to KILL in order to achieve this. It seems once we have a HIVE then they Serve as a Part of the Greater Whole of a HIVE, rather than Individual Survival it becomes about their Species.
Regarding your Idea that you have taken some indication from Steve Messing, then i have to really Read your Whole Idea and look into Steve Messings Comments..
The Franchise is the work of Many Cooks, its is something that Evolves from Movie to Movie, Concept Artist to Concept Artist would have Certain Ideas about Certain Aspects and the Same applies to Writers, and Ultimately the Directors.
So this Next Part is not really in context to your idea, and so i think we have a Evolving Idea, prior to the Prequels we have RS say the Ovoids are a Bio-Logical Warfare, we are not indicated they are Engineered or Discovered, the Prequels began to show us they was Engineered, which Evolved into the Black Goo in Prometheus which again seemed to indicate a use as a Biological Weapon to Eradicate a World a Cleansing Tool of Sorts.
There is always some element of Ambiguity and Changes and differences of Opinion within those working on the Project. For example "sometimes to create one must first Destroy" this could be that the Intention was to Replace Mankind with what Changes would come from the Black Goo, or it also could be that In Order to Start Again and WIPE the Slate Clean then you have to Destroy what is there First... But this is the Conclusion of David and so that may not be 100% as Accurate to the Engineers Intentions.
I apologize to Chli for this response being a bit OFF-TOPIC
To get it back to Context to the OT then it is a Case of looking more DEEPER into the Reason behind the Ovoids (maybe more than Goo) and so its about exploring and expanding to WHY they was Created and by WHO and depending on WHO and WHY would then be Relevant to how the OT would be applied.
So if we are going with David as the Creator then its a case of WOULD some kind of Passing on of the Instincts/Traits of the Host be something Intended/Designed by him, or just something that the Organism just is Capable of and is in NO way a Engineered Component to WHY they would do this (Carry on Instincts/Traits of a Host)... but if the Organism is a Parasitic Survivor then carrying on Traits and Instincts is IDEAL to Survive in the Environment the Organism would Find itself.
In Context to your IDEA.. i cant really comment as i have YET to read on it, especially in Context to the Ovoids, the Origins and Purpose of them..
If i look at Starbeast and the Intention of a Host, and then this OT.... then you could assume that the Starbeast Ovoids needed a Host and so a Animal is Used and the Starbeast may have some Genetic Memory that is passed from Ovoid to the Chest Buster that Incubates inside a Host.
The Starbeast would have some Genetic Memory as far as Instincts passed on but would be Quite Feral, until it was Nurtured by its Own Kind and Learns...
And so in this Context and i am not sure if your Idea touches on similar, then a Human may not have been a Intended or Ideal Host.... and so when a Human in Context to the Starbeast Idea becomes a Host then as a Human has more Psychological/Emotional Traits a Soul if you would instead of that of a Animal, then the Ovoid would as a Unintended Consequence pick up on the Traits that a Human has as far as Survival and Instinct that a Animal does-not and THESE are then what Produces a Starbeast that would BEHAVE in a Different way than as Intended (using a Animal).
Thats not me suggesting your Idea is the same, as i have to Read your Idea, or its not suggesting this is what was intended by Ridely Scott as far as the Ovoids in the Prequels. it was just a way to look at maybe how the Ovoids were maybe not Intended to be Interfered with or in Contact with a Human.... but such Contact has a Undesired Consequence for the Humans, but maybe also as far as the intended Purpose of the Ovoid. But this really is only Relevant depending on the Purpose of those Ovoids and depending on WHO it is that Created them or HOW they came to be, then depending on that.. would change the Context.
The cluster to the right is a perfect alignment whereas with the second three the top hole is a little above and the Lone Figure could be taller but hey these are ancient bushmen. Life imitating art.
I am currently in Kwa Zulu Natal and went hiking with my Zulu guide this morning. The hike included Lone Rock which has beautiful ancient cave paintings on its wall. They tell a story of beings moving toward a Lone figure stood erect and above the Lone figure are six circular holes in the rock face which sit neatly over the template offered by Dr Charles Holloway.
OK. I have a few minutes to address this nonsense. @dk, are you sure this wasn't all just made up as a wind-up?
The entire success of this movie, where it's laurels rest, is upon those sets.
Nonsense. The visuals are great but so are the story and characters.
[Ridley Scott] says that if you think too hard about it then it does not make sense.
Of course it doesn't. Einstein told us that faster-thsn-light travel is impossible, but that doesn't detract from the story. It's science fiction, not a science documentary (as Ridley says).
the bulk of the movie is just pushed along by a continuance of sci-fi clichés such as those cryogenic "freezer-inos"
Ridiculous. The movie is pushed along by a unique take on its space-trucker origins. Not to mention the back story of the Alien.
not a reflection of life but an attempt to create a new vision for audiences that will change the course of the world
It's a reflection of a possible way of life in the future. That's what most sci-fi does.
The entire film equates male sexuality to a monstrosity.
No it doesn't. Whilst there are certainly sexual elements, lady parts get a good look in. See, for example, the vulva entrances to the spaceship and the lips of the eggs.
why are the destructive forces of progress written as female while the space of regression is shown as male?
You've just contradicted yourself by previously saying that the entire film equates male sexuality to a monstrosity.
Even the android Ash is feminized by being an android which is an assuredly impotent thing, indeed he must consume a drink that looks like semen discharge because he cannot produce his own
What on Earth are you talking about? Ash is far from feminine. His body contains a milky lubricant similar to what can be found in a lot of machinery. Nothing to do with semen or his inability to produce it.
portraying a woman in a man's role is not going to improve the world
Who said it would? And what, exactly, is a man's role anyway.
what is all the money in the world to a woman if she does not have a man to protect her
Now you're just being deliberatly silly.
it is not a film that gives respect to women. I think that Sigourney Weaver appears in it scantly clad and bra-less. Enough said.
No, enough is not said. The two female characters in the movie get full respect. The reason that Ripley appears in her underwear is not to tittilate the audience; it is to add a feeling of vulnerability and claustrophobia. Which it does very successfully. I'm sure we've all had anxiety dreams about turning up to school minus pants.
the opening shot that pans the spaceship is directly stolen from Star Wars
The point-of-view is quite different.
when Cain is attacked by the parasite it melts through his thick visor wall but leaves his face uninjured.
Kane has blood on his face.
When the monster kills Dallas it just is crouching there with it's arms outstretched, in fact never in the movie did I see the monster in the fluid motions of an attack.
It crouches in the dark and then stretches out its arms. The horror of what comes next is left to the viewer's imagination, and quite rightly so. The monster exhibited a fluid attack when it dispatched Parker.
Why am I supposed to believe that a spaceship would just conveniently have a self-destruct mechanism
Every spaceship ever launched has a self-destruct mechanism. There are a thousand reasons why the Nostromo might need one.
Wow, there are just so many things wrong with this review it’s hard to know where to start! Later...
@dk, Oh yes, it’s certainly a fun thought. It would have perhaps been more horrifying if it had actually been Newt’s mum in the cocoon, and if Newt had caught a glimpse. Maybe that would have just been too traumatic to countenance, though.
@I Raptus, Bishop not looking too good there! It’s been a while since I saw Alien 3... did he have lice too? NB, they cut down on the lice in the theatrical release. The Special Edition is much better in this respect and a few other regards.
Viewing the movie alone, Newt's mom could have made it back. Newt did, after all and probably couldn't have driven the Tonka truck back home by herself. At any rate, I was wrong, but it is fun to think about.
hox Yeah, why would she hot-foot it back to Hadley's Hope for a short back and sides?
Maybe they had a lice infestation like on Fury-161?? lol XD
I have read this several times and I don't understand what you are trying to say.
"but to swing it back, then as a Weapon/Eradication Tool then having Genetic Memorywould NOT be a Good Idea to allow such a Weapon." Are you saying the concept is bad because your statement misunderstands the idea?
So I will restate my idea.
My idea which this thread is built on is not about genetic memory it's about more general behaviour and instinct of the creature when mankind is the host.
It's a storytelling point that mankind and the creature are not so very different.
All Ash is describing is what he sees, "a survivor, unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality." He has no idea why that is.
My idea is it is a consequence of an A.I's punishment tag. The activation of the face-hugger by an inappropriate target will kick in the punishment protocol.
However, the Ovoids have been created for a purpose to apply Engineered designed characteristics to a specific very valuable target which amounts to intellectual property theft. So the hugger is programmed to take the traits of the host.
In this case its mankind so the creature is driven by its programme and any hybridised qualities it picks up. Mankind is fearful, aggressive over-sexualised and kills its own. As the writer of the chapter involving the creature I was making the point that its victim did not stand a chance and in a literary sense try and replay what we get in A L I E N with Ash saying you haven't a hope in hell. You have a punishment protocol driving it, general traits of mankind you don't stand a chance.
It's that simple and to clarify the creature is not a bioweapon it is an unintended consequence which has an inbuilt programme to destroy any members of the interfering host species and it is as Steve Messing indicated a polluted degraded outcome and in my story specifically because mankind is the host.
You could also take the creature's behaviour as playing out Damon's paranoid world view that all children want their parents dead.
nice idea. Would have been brutal if it was.
Gut punch you in the feels
Sweetheart Oversight means
"an unintentional failure to notice or do something."
It's very simple what you keep on calling oversights are not they are deliberate choices.
However, what I am not questioning is your right to do the analysis to show the differences.
To be entirely candid with you the reason I wrote a very long forward to my work on these dimensioning issues is to put on record I knew so I did not get bogged down in this stuff. When I found having 130 Ovoids in a Juggernaut did not get any comments from anybody I removed it to the notes.
When I travel and meet people who are ordinary filmgoers and mention the sort of things people obsess about on this site they look at me blankly so I am also trying to represent the silent majority who do not give two hoots about this stuff.
I am sure people find the idea of going to the trouble of writing two novels which challenge what an intelligent creation looks like bizarre I find the majority of stuff people write about here profoundly uninteresting. But to defend those people here most fan sites do the same they do not talk story, character, atmosphere or themes they talk fabric.
I will keep out of these threads in future and I apologise to chli for offering my simple 1979 view of things.
@ BigDave,
I'm pretty sure that Cameron's inference is that Russ and Ann entered the derelict through a hole caused by and nearby the collapsed starboard arm.
@Chli
Back to the Derelict and Aliens...
We can Assume the HOLE is near/in the Arm Section as it appears the Jordons had been looking up at this Section, just prior to Parking the ATV/Transport.
I have attempted to Estimate where they could have Entered.
NOW this looks like some Damage from Inside but it could be down to a Meteor Strike, we cant also RULE OUT that this was not there in ALIEN but then WHY would the Nostromo Crew had Entered the other Openings However?
I would however be Drawn to Assume it had Happened after ALIEN and it looks like something had Exploded in that AREA but something that was not so MASSIVE that it had not Created a Massive HOLE
So that leaves us with some Possibilities to HOW/WHEN and WHY that Hole had been Made ;)
Also if the Derelict can sustain such Damage then the Potential is that a NUKE would do more, but the Juggernaught appeared to Suffer Little Damage with the Collision with the Prometheus... But maybe Externally the Ships are Tough but from Inside or/and Over Time they are Weaker.
So the Survival of any EGGS if its Part of the Ship would depend on HOW FAR away the Derelict it.. a 40MT Blast would Destroy only up to the 40KM Mark (that would not be Critical Damage Either) as Actual Fireball would be about 6KM so NOT as big as Nebraska
So again we cant Nit-Pick over Particulars because if it was a 40MT Nuke then if the Derelict is over say 20KM away then YES something could be Salvaged but maybe would be Radioactive...
Considering a Blast the Size of Nebraska and Damage to the Derelict in ALIENS then it would be a NOT MUCH of a Chance of Salvaging anything from INSIDE the Derelict.
None of it really matters much, because IF they give us a Movie that Visits the LV-426/Derelict Site after Hadleys Hopes Destruction then they could have it that the SHIP had suffered Little Damage.... or even the Cargo Hold is Safely Underground.
In either OPTION... we would have to Accept it, regardless if we are like... NO WAY it would have Survived or NO-WAY thats Part of the Ship etc.
If they want to Explore the Eggs on the Derelict after Hadleys Hope Destruction they would make whatever Conveniences for such a PLOT... Contrary to what we may have been shown Prior.
We then have to LOOK at the Neomorphs, these came from the Spore Pods that were located near a Water Supply, the Juggernaut had Crashed onto a Mountain that has a Stream Running down it and so Water would Pour Over and Under the Ship... and lead to the Stream Below!
If we assume the Spores are from Infected MOLD or FUNGI that has become a Hybrid Carrier of the Pathogen that has Created a Organism that is Spread via the Spores....
Mold, Fungi and Algae are found Near Water/Damp Environments and they are a Form of Organism and so maybe they are Infected by some URNS that had Fallen Over and Leaked from the Cargo Hold after the SHIP had Crashed..
The Effects are Different as these Urns had not become Primed/Activated and Exploded in the Air... or maybe the Pathogen has a Different Effect when MIXED with a Water Supply/Liquid.
Thats my Interpretation of what happened..
However what we are dealing with Really is a Radical Form of McGuffin.... a Substance/Plot Device that can be used and changed to Benefit the Plot for Ease and Convienience.
I think it depends on what Source of Information you use to TRY and work out what is going on...
This Scene we see the Behavior is Different to Prometheus, by watching Prometheus we would ASSUME the Pathogen would do one of these.... (depending on amount of Pathogen and Contact).
1) Replicate and Spread like a Viral Pathogen (Ebola) resulting in the Hosts eventually suffering from TOTAL DNA (Molecular) Break Down into..... Dust/Particles.
2) Infect the Host to become Mutated and taking on Traits that are IN the Black Goo (or Encoded).
3) A Combination where the 1) causes 2) where the Pathogen Replicates and Spreads, and Mutates the Host but then the Host then suffers from TOTAL Genetic Break Down after a Period of Time.
Then we have the Hammerpede and Trillobite which indicates that Certain More Basic Organisms (Worm and Genetic Blank Canvas of a Egg Cell) will instead EVOLVE into something Else..
Of Course these could be Effected by Different Ways the Pathogen is contacted and Amount.
In ALIEN COVENANT we see the Pathogen in the way its Activated and Deployed seems to have some INTELLIGENCE to it, as it SWARMS to seek out a Host, then it Infects the Hosts, Replicates and then Leaves the Host to SEEK another Target.
The Pathogen having such a Force that it would TRY and escape by any means from a Host to the Next, which includes Tearing Holes in them to Escape...
Then we are LEFT with the Desiccated Remains of the Engineers, we see NO Evidence of any Organisms they have Produced or Mutated into...
Is this EFFECT a Programed Reaction and so the Pathogen can be Programed to Effect Certain Genomes/DNA with a Different Outcome such as Re-Write the Genetic Code or Replace the Genetic Cells with Calcified/Desiccated Cells?
What a IDEAL Weapon that is if this is the Case..
Or was some kind of KILL SWITCH Activated on Planet 4 that would Release some Energy Blast or Something that would TURN all Living Matter into Desiccated Matter and THUS would Prevent the Spread of the Pathogen and Effects...
Such a SAFETY Mechanism would make Sense to have on Planet 4 the Release/Use of this could Account for the Juggernaught being knocked out of the SKY!
I think on ONE hand its Interesting to Consider Genetic Memory.... but then we also have to look at what ASH had said, he said the Xenomorph is not Clouded by Remorse or Consciousness and so maybe we have to Assume he could be Correct and IF-SO then if the Host had say any Hate/Prejudice against a Certain Sex then i dont think that would IMPACT the Actions of the Xenomorph, for example if the Host was a Homosexual Male would that make the Xenomorph only Target Males, or attack them Differently to a Female?
I would say NOT if the Xenomorph has no Conscious?
But then surely it could have some Genetic Memory like how Some Organisms have a Instinct/Knowledge that comes from Genetic Memory and so DONT have to Learn about Certain Survival Instincts/Skills or Fears. They are Passed On Genetically.
Its interesting to WONDER if the Xenomorph does Acquire some Knowledge from its HOST, but to NOT be effected by any Psychological/Emotional Elements of the Host... so for Example the Xenomorph of Kane could have knowledge from him about the Nostromo Ship and the Escape Shuttle, which could explain WHY it could Evade the Crew and also be aware of the Escape Ship and to go and wait there for Ripley.
The Same Applies to ALIENS as far as the Xenomorphs having some Idea of the Lay Out of the Colony Buildings and HOW to Turn off the Power etc.... if they gained such Knowledge from their Hosts Memories.
With Ripley 8 we get True Recollection of Past Memory, but maybe that ONLY applies to HER via the Process of Mixed DNA.
I think something to Consider as far as PUNISHMENT is that we have seen the Xenomorph referred to as a Demon, the Devil if you would...
So as far as a BIBLICAL Punishment.... its Interesting to Wonder about the Eggs being used on a World where the Actions/Aggression and Destruction of a World and its Inhabitants could come down to the HOST Species.... EVILS/SINS...
But i get the Impression they are a Invasive Species who rely on Procreation and the means to this is WHAT becomes a Threat to the Targets...
It would be like SOLVING a Termite Problem with Genetically Engineered Larger Ants that would then WIPE-OUT and Destroy the Termites...
Then your left with the Same Problem but with Genetic Engineered Ants... UNLESS there was a Kill Switch... so that either those Ants would DIE out after a Period of Time and NOT be able to Procreate Past this Point... or you have a Virus or something to Eradicate those Ants.
So you would expect similar to be Applied if the Xenomorph was a Engineered Bio-Weapon (Eradication Tool).
Sorry that went OFF-TOPIC.. but to swing it back, then as a Weapon/Eradication Tool then having Genetic Memory would NOT be a Good Idea to allow such a Weapon.
There Certainly seems to be Some Anti Gravitational Force Applied in the Cargo Hold, we could Wonder if this Force/Event is what Activates/Primes the Urns until they are Ready and then Released... this Priming Method is what would Cause them to Explode and then Rain down the Pathogen in the Manner we see in the Bombardment.
Indeed the Internal Layout of the Juggernauts appears to be a Bit Different, but thats NOT to say that NO TWO Ships need to be the Same Internally ;)
I did this for another Topic... where it shows where i assume the Prometheus Crew Enter to the Cargo Hold then Pilot Room. This image also shows where the Covenant Cargo Bay was and it appears that the Tunnel from this Cargo Bay must Snake Around on a Incline and Leads to the Pilot Room that appears to be at a Higher Level in this Ship.
There is NO Reason why the Ship Internally cant Change Shape/Size and Levels... maybe its NOT beyond the Technology as the Cargo Hold Hole in Alien Covenant does appear from a Area where there is NO such HOLE.... so their Technology maybe allows for the Material to Morph/Change Shape.
They do look Similar....
But as pointed out they are NOT...
This does-not Rule Out that they could have been Related, so like her Auntie... she could even had been the Last Adult to have been on the Run/Looking after Newt ;)
"So I am not shutting down or disrespecting other peoples entitlement to like or not like something I am simply standing up for recent films and their makers and restoring the truth of how decisions came to be made."
Absolutely and i consider you comments as such, and with respect.
I am actually one of those are Accept the Changes, all i do is try to look at Each Side of the Story, and try and Find some Reasons to Support Different Sides/Views...
I fully Understand and have agreed with Changes and what it is that RS was intending, and things Change as they go along for what ever Purpose, and these Usually are a Change in the Narrative Story, and Changes to be Practical so that Story can be Told.
I am NO Expert or Pretend to be, i have a Passion for the Franchise and i do like to Look in Depth at things.. but then i always to bring about the OVERSIGHT Comment which is a Closing Statement usually to Consider that Regardless of what we may Want/Think or See, that we have to really just Pay Attention to what we are being TOLD and that Discrepancies are things we should OVERLOOK and not be Expected to Nit Pick as then you End Up making some Cases against what they are SHOWING us, but i still think its Fine to Take Part in Discussions..
ELSE what we should have is Ridley Scott make all the Prequels and ALIEN into some 3 Part Novel a BIBLE where he is Every Word is Gospel and then END any debates and so there would be NO Point to such things....
For the Record while i may offer and look at different sides to each Perspective.... i actually like Prometheus, my Disappointments mainly (apart from some Execution) is our Engineers are a Little on Smaller Side... but as i made a Case Before... NOT every Human is between 5ft10-6ft Tall, so while we have 7.5-8ft Humans... WHY-NOT 9-10ft Engineers and then the Rest of the Size Differences... well as Kane Said... "looks like its Grown out of the Chair"
The other Issue is the David the Creator... i understand the Reasons for it, and it makes Sense, but i feel they could have had him Create something Similar but that is more Superior and THIS would have Fitted the ARC and Story while Maintaining the Mystery of ALIEN and also in showing HOW it was David had Created his OWN Monster we could get a Insight to HOW the Engineers had Created their own Many Thousands of Years Prior.
Its a Shame Really as i think IF it was that RS was allowed to Fully go with what his Plans was after Prometheus then we could have got something Different, but i Understand the PLOT was Too Bold and Complications are bound to happen as far as getting a RIGHT Story and so with Alien Covenant it was a more SIMPLE/BASIC Plot to Follow and Execute.
PS... Sorry Chli if i have taken this OFF TOPIC
"However, what Big Dave is trying to argue"
I am sorry if you Interpret my comments as this, i Never Intend to set out as though its a Argument ;)
"They did not Jon Sphaits said they deliberately went for an 8-foot creature rather than a giant elephantine one for storytelling reasons"
Certainly and this is also what i have mentioned before, that for the STORY you needed Certain things to explain HOW/WHY would the Human Characters be Connected, and having a Giant Elephantine Race who Cant Communicate with Mankind or Shares NO History would mean that you have to come up with a PLOT to HOW the Humans would END UP going to the Same System as in ALIEN and then ONCE you have given Answers to ALIEN its where do the Expand on the Space Jockey if it was a ALIEN RACE that has No Way to Communicate with Mankind etc... or History.
The SCALE was just something they thought would be Convenience as the intention of SPAIGHTS was a 15ft Engineer, then this went down to 12ft and then 10ft but they decided to go for whats Practical and to NOT be using Special Effects and so we END up with 8ft Engineers for a similar Reason we END up with Toxic Avenger Fifield.
Some Changes they had No Real Reason for, such as Aesthetically to have the Ship a little Different Internally (Pilot Room Architecture) it was said it was a case of to TONE down the HR Giger Aesthetic a little.
some Changes came about for Plot Convenience such as RS wanted a Scene with the Juggernaught Rolling and so a C Shape was Used instead of the U Shape as that would not Roll.
some Changes are likely for Budget and Time, and so it would have been Easier to have the Cargo Layout on the Same Floor, compared to Extra Cost and Time to show them Enter the Ship and have to go through Corridors that would Snake Around on a Incline, or have Ladders or a Engineer Lift System to other Floors so it was likely a Convenience.
And so while this means there are Differences, those who are Working on the Movie especially as far as Director goes, then its a Case of such things really should not MATTER in Terms of the Story they are trying to TELL... Ridley Scott had indicated the Ships are NOT the same but Related, well he had inferred they are Separated by Hundreds of Years (bit odd) and they are Brothers, his point really is that the Derelict is a Engineer Ship, the Pilot is Related to the Engineers also, the Differences in Ships does-not mean they Belong to Different Races
What he says could be just a way to get around that there was Differences for a Number of Reasons but we should Consider them to be Very Related and NOT that they are Totally Different...
If they had SCRAPPED the Draft that Lindeloff had did and decided to Produce what Jon Spaights had done, and Replicate what was Described then the SHIPS would have been Very Much Similar, the Space Jockey also similar size to the Engineers.
Plots Change, and Props/Sets can Change a Little to Suit the Needs of the Director and Production as far as to be Convenient to the Next Installment.
By that IF we got another Movie where we are shown a 8ft Engineer gets infected by a Face Hugger, then he Climbs into the Seat of a Juggernaught with the Same Layout as in Prometheus/Alien Covenant, (Pilot Room) and then we see this Ship Flying towards a GAS Giant and then we Cut to the Pilot Getting Chest Busted and then see the Ship Crash on a Similar looking Moon and the LAST SHOT is we see a Chest Buster Run Off then we go down a Shaft/Tunnel and see a EGG Cargo Hold that is NOT as Huge as in ALIEN.
Then if this is the Conclusion, and its what Ridely Scott says is what shows the Space Jockey Fate, then we have to Accept it for what it is, even IF it does-not match what we saw in Alien to a High %.
We can all HOPE they would Pay Attention to Matching the Details, but that does-not mean this is what we would GET and if we get a Conclusion as above then we have to OVERLOOK the Differences, or just Boycott it and Pretend it NEVER happened which is down to what Each Fan wants to Accept or Not.
The Debates and Images i was showing was really to TRY and look at IF or IF-NOT the Egg Cargo Hold would FIT on the Ship so as to see if a Separate Silo could NOT be Ruled out, i have Accepted that in Likely Hood we have to Accept its Part of the Ship and a Oversight (something we have to Overlook as far as Inconsistency)
It was NOT really to Connect the Juggernaught or Discus this Ship, as i was keeping it open to that we have TWO different Ships but both Similar and by the Same Race... a Boeing 737 and Airbus A380 would look VERY Similar to someone who had NEVER seen a Plane before, and while Slightly Different they are the Same.. they are Aeroplanes intended for the Same Purpose.
@Michelle
I do tend to USE the word Oversight a bit, but i use it in the similar Context to what Hox had put in his reply, in that from the Perspective of the Fans as far as we will just have to ACCEPT certain Inconsistencies and Errors as something we have to Overlook.
ULTIMATELY as far as those who are Giving us the Narrative and Story (Producers, Writers and Director) such Inconsistencies are things they would DEEM as not really be Necessary as far as to IMPACT the Plot/Store they wish to Convey and Conclude.
While there are the ODD Difference in Scale and Aesthetic, we have to take into account what they are inferring towards. So for example while IF we look at the Egg Hold as being something that WONT Fit inside the Ship if we was to Forensically Analyze it, or take what say Kane said as far as its a CAVE... then what it Ultimately comes down to is WHAT those who are giving us this Story/Plot have Intended and IF this is that its part of the SHIP then i guess we have to ACCEPT that and any Inconsistencies are what we would eventually have to Overlook and this is what i refer to when i bring up Oversight, as in on OUR PART...
I do however feel that UNTIL we go to the Derelict again or get a Conclusion that shows us the Ship and HOW/WHEN/WHY it ended up on LV-426 and Until such would show us the Cargo Hold is Part of the Ship then Fans will Speculate on Theories that it MAY-NOT or CAN-NOT be a Part of the Ship.... Until we get a Conclusion then we have to Accept what the Writers/Directors Intend... But also to BARE in Mind what they Intend can Change.... such as what happened with the Ancient Derelict and its Cargo that if we go by what they NOW seem to intend is something that as of the Year 2105 is NOT on LV-426..... despite this being the Case Prior to Alien Covenant.
And so i think Until we get a Conclusion on Screen the Debates for what ever reason or Evidence will Continue over the Cargo Hold and How Long the Ship has been on LV-426.
So at the Moment i think Fans are Entitled to make their own Conclusions, or Accept what the Story is as its Told, even if that means they have to Overlook Certain Flaws.
Oh i will Apologize for my use of CAPS and Bold... i do this NOT to Force a Point but to make Certain Points Stand out against the Back Drop of my Many Many Words and not the Best use of Grammar ;) Because otherwise some KEY points would get Lost like a Needle in a Haystack LOL
Ann Jorden = Newts Mother, played by Holly De Jong as seen in Aliens Special Edition.
@hox
Your getting confused. It's well known that when A L I E N was being made they were constantly changing some of the story logic. There was a point when there were far fewer Eggs on the ship then there was a phase when there was a huge underground silo which the Eggs were contained in. Then post-film the traditions evolved.
However, what Big Dave is trying to argue as he has done so many times is that when they painstakingly designed the props for Prometheus they overlooked the size of the Jockey and the Derelict in the original film. They did not Jon Sphaits said they deliberately went for an 8-foot creature rather than a giant elephantine one for storytelling reasons. They designed the Juggernaut as being the derelict taking into account the Eggs were in the cargo bay.
I am not denying that the traditions of A L I E N have evolved what I am saying is the decisions made on Prometheus were deliberate. I couldn't care less about the inconsistencies between the two films but I will stand up when peoples identify them as oversights. They are thought out judgements and on record as such.
I went to see ALIEN in 1979 all my friends thought Kane went down a hole in the ship into a Cave. It's only since Ridley began saying it was the cargo on the ship that everyone has started having a view on it. But if you asked Ridley over a latte has the tradition evolved I am sure he would admit it.
If people say as they do all over the internet I am out of here that isn't the Jockey I am completely cool with that. I am the same I think Covenant is not only a routine film but the narrative logic is bollock's and dismisses Prometheus (which those involved in the film have confirmed) but I do not go on about oversights between mutagens and pathogens and positions of Cargo Bays because I know they were all deliberate choices I just don't believe in the story.
So I am not shutting down or disrespecting other peoples entitlement to like or not like something I am simply standing up for recent films and their makers and restoring the truth of how decisions came to be made.
Let's like or not like a film or elements of it but all this holier than thou armchair filmmaker stuff who knows better is frankly more often than not wrong in its assumptions as to how decisions got made.
Thank you for your interest and I am delighted you enjoyed it.
I am extremely self-critical but I do think it somehow manages to deal with many of the nuances surrounding the subject of what is existence if you look through the telescope marked intelligent creation.
What you described above Blackwinter-witch is very close if not exactly what is seen in the sequence in Alien: Covenant.
Nope, not neomorphs. The creatures coming from the engineers would be the first stage of the neomorph life cycle. Think of what came out of Shaw after her black goo exposure via sex with Holloway. Also, what came out of the mushrooms after their exposure. The first stage is some kind of parasite, which will then attack another creature and impregnate them with some kind of neomorph. The neomorph is the final stage, not the first.
It was too early to commit Another Life to the MMBT file I Raptus. The Mobius Strip ships in the last episode were enough to keep the series out of the same classification as Eyes Wide Shut.
Alien Series Blueprint
As far as a blueprint for an Alien Series...that is a good question because the story/character development does begin on Earth and a crew is selected to investigate areas not seen before. The extraterrestrial arrival, to me, doesn't fit unless it is changed to a hostile Engineer visit or a Xenomorph outbreak.
The character development cited above is vital and a continuing challenge in the narrow window of an Alien film. An Alien series would certainly have the room to address this. Private Rosenthal and Sergeant Lope have a great time fighting local terrorists just outside of London in the early 2100s in the Alien: Covenant Origins novel.
This scenario would provide the character development in a series that builds up to or following a film such as Alien: Covenant. And who is against micro-drones attacking a flying 4-door sedan over a field of synthetic animals attacking the security forces...that would create a lot of character for the series.
Thank you for the topic enrichment Gavin.
I had no idea what you were talking about and it was interesting to research it. We focus quite a bit on the content product but there is just as much drama in the development of the games, films, tv...below.
Sega blames Gearbox for mismanaging Aliens: Colonial Marines marketing (source)
"Cocooned Woman" is Barbara Coles (source).
"Newt's Mother" is uncredited, played by Holly De Jong (source).
Great question dk.
Yeah, why would she hot-foot it back to Hadley's Hope for a short back and sides?
Also, it was Dietrich who found the lady in the picture above. "Get over here, we've got a live one!"
I never thought they were alike.
Different eyes.
Different hair color/cut.
"I think maybe kind of, its HARD to come up with anything thats never been done before in Sci-Fi"
That is certainly easy to argue BigDave with the explosion in Sci-Fi content over the last 50 years. Almost every conceivable concept has been explored in various quality over the decades.
Secret Agendas
"she additionally begins uncovering secrets and techniques hidden inside her personal programming, secrets and techniques that might assist her shield her household, however may simply as simply destroy them.” (source)
The above character background of the mother android (Amanda Collin) on the planet reveals secrets. It would be nice to see something like the special orders in the Alien movies or Advent where the colony was a test environment...not necessarily a Xenomorph hive but that would be really nice.
"I suspect we will see Inner Conflict for those Children as in Discovering what other Humans are like and what Drives them, and some of this could be Appealing to them, some could be Disturbing to some...
While some of those Children could maybe see the Care that the Androids had placed into them, and see the Potential Bad in the Influence/Corruption and Conflict the Arrival of these other Humans could have on their PARADISE."
The Netflix I Am Mother scenario is very similar in concept in regards to the inner conflict of a child cared for by an android that you describe above BigDave. This child is later exposed to another human for the first time and taught to be suspicious and I suspect any human visitors on the Raised by Wolves planet will be treated the same way.
Raised by Wolves
The character biographies below were in the article.
Matias Varela - Lucius
“a loyal soldier, who’s attempting to make up for the perceived failings of his father, a person whose sense of kindness and mercy have been his final undoing. Lucius is so dedicated to reversing his father’s legacy, that he devotes himself to serving the very man who executed him, a person he believes could also be a savior to his folks.”
Travis Fimmel - Marcus
“a roguish, charismatic soldier, who was the last word survivor again on Earth. To flee the doomed planet, Marcus and his spouse Sue made a harmful resolution that they have to hold secret in any respect prices. However now that they’ve arrived within the new world, Marcus is struggling to reconcile the sins of his previous, at the same time as he continues to embrace the killer instincts that at all times stored him alive within the first place.”
More secrets...can't wait.
Just finished reading, amazing stuff!
I don't believe for one minute that the prop/set designers took their creations far beyond what is seen on camera. For example, I imagine that Ridley quickly sketched out an oddly profiled tunnel where the explorers in Alien check out the derelict. It looks good and weird in and of itself. The set constructors didn't need to worry themselves about where in the ship that tunnel was. Similarly, when it came to showing the egg chamber, a glorious expansive cave is all we need to see on screen. It might be an underground, cavern or deep in the belly of the ship. It doesn't really matter, so long as it looks good (and plausible).
Inconsistencies in what is shown are certainly oversights, but perfectly understandable ones. I don't suppose that any of the designers imagined that 40 years later, we'd be nit-picking about it on something called 'the internet'.
You use the word oversight a lot when you are dealing with inconsistencies. Implying the designers and filmmakers have overlooked the differences. I don't think they have it's just they think the connections they make are strong enough and viewer suspension deals will the rest and whatever they change is for story values.
Less you think I am suggesting you are in a minority of one I have noted all deep fan sites of film franchises are preoccupied with the same issues and people become very rude about those responsible for these oversights but thats mankind for you fragmented, angry and adversarial.
I thought you would enjoy the joke as you are avowdly in the camp that if David is the Jockey with his cargo of Eggs from the Covenant sleepers it would be tosh.
When Ridley decided to return to the franchise he said no one had dealt with the question of the guy in the chair.
I decided with the information of Prometheus to recalibrate the question no one had asked the question as to the target of the derelict and its cargo? Once I had an answer to that question it became clear that Kane’s intervention and his subsequent child was an unintended consequence and were a diluted degraded outcome lacking the purity and full potential of the Engineers work. I thought this was an original idea but it turns out that was precisely the vision of Steve Messing one of the design artists of Prometheus.
There were two other elements I decided came into play which explained its behaviour. The Mutagen is a combination of the Fire of Life and a contrived element, which in combination catalyses organic outcomes by biomimetic fabrication and subjects them to an inbuilt base sequence of control by tagging.
However, all life mutates to its circumstances and conditions and Kane’s intervention and the earlier one in my story represent unauthorised interference. So part of the creature's behaviour is about retribution on the host species for interference. That explains its unbridled hostility and remorseless determination to destroy any member of the host species. It is the ultimate example of a punishment tag.
However, there is another element which Chli has very kindly raised up for conversation. Given the actual target of the Ovoid’s would result in an outcome, which is as much about the host as the ovoids, would not mankind’s behavioural tics bleed into the creature.
Mankind is adversarial, driven by fear particularly fear of death (Weyland), over-sexualised (Milburn, Charlie, Vickers in my story) is one of the few species that kills its own kind. Many examples are dysfunctional, unable to cope without drugs (Fifield) or drink (Kane and in a sense Charlie). Mankind was created in the image of their Gods but doesn’t hold on to the beauty and symmetry of David or Venus.
So it’s contribution to Kane’s child is to be over-sexualised, unable to communicate effectively and metaphorically entirely correct has acid for blood. It's also profoundly dysfunctional, and misshapen, echoing Frankenstein’s creation with its bizarre unlovely rear skeletal structure.
The most elegant element is the head shape shared by the apex of their achievement the Deacon Upgrade, and the head shape turns out in my story to be an echo of a Home World creature with a special destiny, but on the creature it’s a metaphor for male sexuality.
I also felt that each time a Face Hugger/Creature appeared you needed to say something new and unique about it and go into the territory that Chli is raising.
In the first instance, the exchange is between a creature born of a decent host and a female. The exchange between them is built around Ridley Scott and Veronica Cartwright’s observations about what was going on between the creature and the woman.
The first thing the creature does is to pass its tail between her legs and holds her up by it. The implications are obvious he then goes on to spit a secretion on her visor, which could be interpreted as a form of pre-ejaculation. Obviously the female has no idea what this means but she is coming apart at the seems (heart rate through the roof, bowl loosening etc) and in any event, she would consider the creatures next move as rape. But equally, a crewmember is looking on who rapes and murders his victims so a comment about connected behaviour (Chli's point) which bleeds into Elizabeth’s story in Act 3.
On the second occasion a face-hugger alone appears and in a confrontation with David shows its capacity to adapt and use its host's knowledge. David taken by surprise handles it and finds himself outwitted as it attempts to sever his head from his body with the tail of the hugger. This kicks the narrative forward but enables David to feel rage.
Finally, there is an incident where a host realises it has the capacity to control what is incubating inside it. This is part of a journey for a host and the mutagen and to show the many-faceted options for both. Almost the crossroads where Ripley had arrived at but going on further.
I got your point about Kane's drinking it's not about the drinking it's the psychological background to all substance abuse.
As far as I'm concerned, Ridley can't repair what has already broken. Covenant had great potential, but flopped at the box office, last time I checked it only made $70 million. In my opinion, Blomkamp's Alien 5 should have been made and afterwards, Scott's prequels should have been made. But as we all know, Neill Blomkamp's Alien 5 is dead in the water thanks to Ridley and Fox.
Michelle
Well, if David’s behind the eggs, then they are not there in 2019. :)
hox
It’s an interesting idea that a juggernaut perhaps can die (like a vegetable without nourishment).
BigDave
It’s possible that someone has tried to destroy the Derelict (because of its dangerous cargo). The crew of the Anesidora were there about 15 years after the crew of the Nostromo. Perhaps others as well?
Russ and Anne Jordan enter the Derelict through a gash in the Derelict's arm. Was it there when the group from the Nostromo were there? They enter through one of the three holes in the centre.
These "doors" were open, by the way, as if the crew had been in a hurry to get out. As the team from the Nostromo looks at the Space Jockey, Lambert says: "What happened to the rest of the crew?" Perhaps there were more Engineers on the ship and they fled from a xenomorph attack and succumbed somewhere on LV-426?
