New Replies (Page 196)

@Gavin

If i could go back to the things you indicated in the OT.

LV-426

Indeed any clues about the Signal and being Ancient would Discredit the David Created it Arc.

I think Fans were Disappointed with Prometheus and the lack of Clues or Xenomorph like Attacks... a Hamerpede Face Rape, the Toxic Avenger Fifield, and a Postal Engineer simply would not be as Pleasing for Most.

I dont think we need to go to LV-426, but i do think that giving us a Movie that goes to LV-223 again, that would be more ALIENY and encounter a Organism that is Birthed from Eggs, even if this Organism is NOT the same as a Xenomorph but is somewhat just as close as the Xenomorph of Davids, as in we get something that is NOT quite as similar as the Xenomorph in Alien Covenant or Alien, but something that has that more Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic that the ALIEN had.

So you can keep it a bit Ambiguous but allow it to offer something that makes the Plot of Alien Covenant as being NOT Clear Cut and Dry.

Planet 4

This is more Tricky, so the only way to maybe Discredit David here would be a Mission to Planet 4 and recover some of his Notes, where extra information is Found Regarding how he Synthesized some Organism or the Pathogen to a Pure Form close to what the Engineers had Obtained their Parasitic Pathogen from, but it could NOT Yield Results from a Engineer.

So he had No Choice but to use this on Dr Shaw and the Results where Fruitful but he just could not Quite get to Mass Produce them, without Merging it with the Neomorph and then he would use this on Dr Shaws Egg Cells to obtain his Xenomorph

David

we could have him Explain in a Sequel a similar Process to what i described above.

Space Jockey

I think its maybe not Necessary to go this route, as in a way other clues could be given, but maybe a Mission to LV-426 where they Encounter the Derelict and Discover someone has been here before them, and find Clues that Indicate that DAVID had caused the Acid Hole to go down and Obtain a Specimen, so they Find Some Clues to indicate to the viewer that David came here while Dr Shaw was in Cryo-sleep and he must have left with a EGG.

Could David be revealed to had Activated the SOS in the Year 2094

I think certainly its Interesting to Ponder if David would be Searching for  a Purpose, and looking at our Purpose, he did seem Offended by the Suggestion that he was Created because we could....

So they Both could have Shared a Journey that could have gone in many ways, but what we Ended Up with was something that Tossed that Potential in the BIN!

The Seven Worlds Hennessy Advert was interesting and it also got me thinking was there some subtle hints in this to what he had Intended with the Prequels?

Could it be that he had Conceived that there is a possibility he MAY-NOT get to Tell the Story he wanted to, and so he Incorporates some ideas into other Projects... like The Seven Worlds.

It would be interesting to wonder how much of Raised by Wolves would borrow from his Alien Awakening too.

Prometheus Certainly had a lot of Potential, i do worry we would NEVER see anything that connects to it anymore...

So its always Interesting to see HOW others would have taken the Ball that was Dropped with Alien Covenant and see how they Run with it.

So i Wish you all the Best with your Prometheus : Theodicy

Wish him luck, with Racing its a Dangerous Sport (can be) maybe Safer than taking up Flying Planes as a Past Time (Harrison Ford)

I dont think it should effect his Acting as he would likely still take Jobs that appeal to him, but i think Regarding a Sequel to Alien Covenant there are Bigger Issues that are Holding Back a Sequel at Present.

I think its maybe likely we would see another ALIEN Movie at some point but is that in 5 years, 10 years? and would it be a Continuation of the Plot/Path of the Prequels?

You have to wonder if your a Cast Member of the Previous Movie and so say Fassender or Waterston then how much HOPE do they have of EVER reprising their Roles?

Michael's essential problem is over exposure. My favourite performance is Edwin Epps in "12 years a slave" , followed closely by "The Light Between Oceans." He reminds me of Rachel Weisz who is in the latter. Both of them are very good at projecting sociopathy. You know they are playing with their characters but without the stereotypical obviousness which is what makes AC tosh. In Steve Jobs he was profoundly unlikeable, like the person he played , modern driven tech man monster.

I really liked him in Macbeth where he was a victim of his wife's ambition, and could not find his way out.  

I think he needs a break and then chose much more carefully.       

In the Furious Gods Charlize and Guy spoke very highly of him. He can get up to speed very quickly (excuse the pun). He has the technique but needs to chose better.But if you need the cheque to pay the bills who doesn't end up doing jobs that are less than ideal.  

@chli

Out of politeness just to say I have not forgotten your request. 

After my experience with the "Furious Gods" I was inspired to enhance (not change) my descriptions of both the place and characters that David and Elizabeth meet and come into. Inevitably I found myself improving the text most often simplifying to make the reading more dynamic and communicative. When I write it tends to be backwards with the question then the answer, whereas for a completed narrative you simply need to offer the action of the narrative rather than explain it. 

However I have been reading some essays written collectively about Shelley's work and Scotts work and realise that sub consciously I had included within the narrative the importance of consent but hadn't focused on it. Unlike her father Elizabeth she ask questions, she does not offer blind obedience she personifies Miltonic Adam. David was created for his creators benefit and then upgraded by his creator eight times so consent or lack of it becomes very important to David.

Did the Engineers of this story consider consent and why did the  creatures of the Moon use hosting as a natural choice of sub creation. So the former is driven by Shelley and the latter by Scott.

It ties in with "the accident" the creature which hosts without consent so that footprint is in the Mutagen. (The Mutagen=Creature). Incidentally if the movie was made on the basis that the Mutagen(gloop)= Creature then the Mutagen thematically has to involve a Parasite it cannot be the original creation tool alone. In the sub created world that makes no sense.   

The other issue is the Dick/Bladerunner one, Do Androids dream.....   

If David finds himself in front of something which is capable of/has harnessed the power of creation what would his search for meaning include. In the movie he interrogates Elizabeths dreams, that cannot only have important consequences for their continued connection but for him and there is a story beat which it fits naturally with which I have rewritten. 

In closing I must stress the mode of the overall piece is quite definitely much more aligned with Lindelof's vision for P2 that it would "most likely" not contain any references to the things we associate with ALIEN. It would be a separate child moving narratively alongside and away from ALIEN. 

The issue of Giger/Lovecraftian is handled as Scott handles it in the "Furious Gods" he wanted a vision of a world before these things come into it older. if the Moon represents Paradise Lost then the dysfunctional interrupted quality of Giger is perfect but the original vision was pure which as you know was the original brief to the artists who wanted to sneak in Giger!

Earlier this year Scott offered the overall Prometheus story in the context of seven worlds a very sophisticated advertising vehicle for Hennessy.

Creation

Archaeological Discovery

The Ritual

Artificial Sub creation

Destruction

Aftermath

Religious seeking for the truth

Rebirth

Revelation  

It is not so much the themes echoes mine (I wrote my story in 2018) but as others have noted the visual symbolism offered is aligned with mine and if you view it, it is not dysfunctional at all. What you see is the world that David and Elizabeth come into, so the horrific truths for mankind are played out in a seaming Paradise which makes the pill that much more bitter and particularly if you can not accept the notion we might be a footnote.    

On a Serious Note!

We are in a Pickle....

Maybe the only Options really would be a REBOOT, or to Introduce another Species above the Engineers and make them more ALIEN and maybe we have to Write Off the Engineers and Xenomorph as NOT being the Most ALIEN thing to introduce/explore.

1) Where did the Engineers get their Technology From?

2) Where did the Black Goo come from and WHY does it seem to Create Organisms with Parasitic Traits and Aesthetic of the Deacon, Neomorph and Xenomorph.

And so Alien indicated the Space Jockey and Xenomorph, as (1) and (2) maybe we need to introduce something else for those instead of the Engineers and Xenomorph?

Or Maybe the Answer is to Combine 1+2 and Introduce the STARBEAST?

Could we find some Amalgamation of these to come up with something a Bit Different, be it a New Species and New Weapon that where BOTH... Stolen, Re-Engineered or Given but Miss-used by the Engineers?

Can a Introduction of New Things, or Few Changed really RESCUE the Prequels?

Or would we need a Reboot?

so in Regards to the OT... i agree having David as the Creator was a Mistake, and Alien Covenant has taken the Engineers/Space Jockey Species to something that is NOT as ALIEN or Lovecraftian as it appeared before the Prequels.

Certainly some Nice Examples.

I think a Major Problem with Exploring the Engineers with Weapons would be HOW and WHO and WHERE do they Conflict with Humans... and would we stand ANY chance?

So they could be a little Over Powering...

But then we Survived the Predators, but ALAS not a Full Scale Attack had been made by them.... but i GUESS if we can Survive Independence Day and War of the Worlds then there is HOPE ;)

With my Previous Post out of the way, lets look at the Evolution and HOW maybe these could have been Explored and Problems they Raised.

1) The Original Idea was a Tale about a Giant Alien Species (not Human like at all) who had Encountered a Pyramid on a Alien World, and Curiosity Killed the Cat... this Species had came across the Long Lost Remnants of a Ancient Species who had a Parasitic Life-Cycle.  After Falling Foul to the Spore/Egg stage of this Species the Giant Exploring Alien Species Survivor had Etched a Warning to Warn others of this Place, before they would Succumb to the Starbeast.

This O'Bannon's idea could have been Continued, but a lot had changed by the Time we got to ALIEN and so the only way this could have been Explored would just be a RE-HASH of Alien!  Well to a degree..   Because ALIEN had changed from Starbeast.....  what we had NOW is NOT a case of a Giant Species had Stumbled on these Eggs, what we have is a Connection!  The Aesthetic was Shared especially with the Ship and Xenomorph and so the Options would have been.

* Giant Alien Species (Space Jockey) discover the Ship and Cargo, and decide to Hijack them, where they Conveniently can Infuse with the Chair and are the Right Size.... well that would be SILLY!  But ALAS.. David managed to FLY a Ship ;)

* Giant Alien Species (Space Jockey) have either Created, or Re-Engineered those Eggs and the Derelict Technology for some Purpose.. likely as a Weapon... but against WHO?

* Giant Alien Species (Space Jockey) form some Symbiotic Relationship with the Xenomorph this is either Mutual or some Other Species would USE the Space Jockey for performing this Task... but to WHAT Benefit to the Space Jockey? is he merely a Slave?

2) As we Evolve it had been indicated that the Space Jockey was a Race who had Created the Xenomorphs as a Bio-Weapon..... THIS is where we really left off before the Prequels but could have explored Elements of (1).

What you then have is WHO had they intended this Weapon for, WHAT Conflict are they involved in?

Then its HOW do you introduce the Humans, and so WHY and HOW do a group of Humans End up at a Place that would give Answers to WHO the Space Jockey are, what was their Agenda and Purpose for those Eggs and WHERE those Eggs came from.

Then its HOW do you have them Interact?  Do we get Subtitles between the Space Jockey Aliens?  Do they have a way to Communicate with Humans? Or do we never see any Communication with Humans and we never get any Understanding of what the Space Jockey would be saying to Each Other.

What you have then is Basically WAR OF THE WORLDS.. where instead of THEY come to Earth, instead Human Space Explorers would Stumble Upon a Place where they ARE!

Once we have these ALIENS shown, and we know about the Eggs... its HOW do you Continue... do we explore more about the Space Jockey?  And HOW? Do we Forget about them and its back to EGGS and Chest Busting?

Its these kinds of Issues that made them come up with the Chariots of the Gods like Plot, which came at the Expensive of Sacrificing some of that Lovecratian Horror.

@Gavin

I feel here lies the Major Problem with the Franchise, there was that MYSTERY and it should have been Kept as Such!

Because what we have is a Evolving Franchise, each Movie becomes Divisive, there are some who think that Cameron had Ruined the Franchise in how the Xenomorph was Expanded, and yet this route is what made the Franchise more Recognizable.

We had 4 Movies, it has been a LONG time since the Last some 12 Years before it was a case of HOW do you go back to the Franchise, which we have seen the Xenomorph over and over, in Various Medium be it Games, Comics, Novels, the Movies and AVP's, so its a case of WHERE do you go NEXT?

Nobody had ever EXPLAINED or Explored the Xenomorph Origins and WHO the Space Jockey was.....  

And here lies the PROBLEM.... because how ever you Answer those Questions, you are likely to NOT please every Fan....  Every Fan will have what they feel is the Right Way to have done this and that, every Fan could Interpret things differently.

Its a CASE of WHO really should Decide?  The Fans? do we take a POLL about what we want?  Sadly thats NOT how a Movie is made, this kind of Back Lash can Effect a Sequel though...

Should Dan O'Bannon had been Consulted and his Vision something to have looked at?  Sadly he Passed Away during the Period of when they was working on the Story for a Prequel.

Should Ridley Scott had been given more Control, as he was the First Director of the First Movie, and every other Movie Continued with a Different Director, what kind of Vision would RS have?  Seemed if he had made a ALIEN 2 it would have been Very Different.

Then we have David Giler and Walter Hill who also had a lot of Influence on the Franchise (more than most) do we look at what they would want to do for a Prequel?

Should HR Giger had been given more Control, as he had some pretty much Very Lovecraftian Ideas/Take on the Franchise?

Or should it be the Fans? This is just a Problem as we would all have Different Ideas of how we would Proceed, and you will not get a Fan Inspired Direction that would Please all the Fans...

Ultimately it would be FOX who would have the Most Say!

A Prequel is always something of a Poisoned Chalice a Origins Story can always Disappoint as much as it could Please.  Especially if you are going to be doing something that Directly Connects because you are ALWAYS going to know how this ENDS...  it is Lucky that ALIEN is something that there is a lot of Mystery that is not going to be something we know Happens... but with such a Mystery you have the Chance that you will NEVER do it Justice.

I Personally think Prometheus had opened up a Avenue for the Franchise, and things Could have got more ALIEN in a Sequel and by that i dont mean Xenomorphs because ONCE you cover them again, and their Origins its whats NEXT?  You can come up with a Origin that can Expand and be Interesting, but in regards to ONCE you know HOW/WHERE/WHY there are those Eggs, then its what do you do NEXT?  Because the way the Xenomorph seems to be in the Franchise we have either a Invasive Parasitic Organism that had been Discovered and Saw the Potential to use as a Weapon (Same Agenda the Company had) or it is a Engineered or Re-Engineered Organism that is USEFUL as a Weapon due to its Invasive Parasitic Nature.

So its more a case of WHY as far as WHO would Create or Contemplate using such a Horrific Beast and their Motives that is the WAY to give us more and Expand the Franchise past Eggs, Queens and Ripley.

So it was the SPACE JOCKEY that is how we expand the Franchise, WHO was he, WHERE was he from, WHERE was he going? WHY that Cargo, WHERE did those Eggs come from? and HOW they came to be?

And this is the MYSTERY that in Hindsight should have remained as it was.....  but then its WHAT do you do with the Franchise if your NEVER going to touch upon those Questions?

I Felt Prometheus was a Decent Way Forwards... but there was a Few Things it should have done differently, (some Alien Organisms killing Folk, a little more clues to HOW a Xenomorph could come to be) and Taller Engineers.

I will Close this Part by saying that what Potential was Shown, had been Thrown Away in General with the Direction that Alien Covenant had taken!

There are Logistical and Convenient Choices made, that also had to be made with Prometheus because of the Simple Reason..... HOW do you have Human Characters pushed into this Cosmic Horror?

The the Back Bone Plots for Prometheus and Alien Covenant were BORN! just they could have done things differently if they had CLEVER Writers.... but ALAS!

@ MonsterZero,

In all honesty, I think that would make for a better ending. Whereby after being defeated by the Engineers David finds himself alone with a lone egg. Then, as he strokes it and smiles contemplating how clever he was to keep this egg from the Engineers the egg opens and in a moment David realizes the Engineers have made him flesh and that he has lost.

Actually...it would be cool for Covenant 2 to open with David getting facehugged! Then calmly removing the facehugger(or letting it leave after awhile)....then show David vomiting the xeno placenta and examining it.        Could have multiple scenes of David letting the facehugger impregnate him. Rinse and repeat.

Well...You’ll have to admit that David has set a precedent about storing monster embryo's in his stomach. I don’t think it would be that big of a leap to think he could/would store a queen embryo?

Engineers/space marines are hot on his trail….he swallows his masterpiece (queen embryo), safer than carrying it, he evades the posse, escapes Lv-223...but the queen hatches(for some reason…) (( I’d rather have David facehugged to produce the burst..but this would do ))

There is also evidence that the pathogen fossilizes it’s victims, the murdered Engineers on Planet 4 look dessicated and old.

Now …..I think this is a terrible idea, but I think it would work.

@ IgnorantGuy

Don't give Scott any ideas.

@ MonsterZero,

The Queen has been done to death. And I expect if Scott makes David the Space Jockey and the eggs the Covenants 2000+ colonists, that general audiences and most fans will riot. The backlash would likely be worse than what happened with The Last Jedi.

@ BigDave,

Let's be clear, intentions, inference, and connotations aside, it is not definitively stated anywhere in Prometheus and Alien: Covenant that the Engineers created humankind, and furthermore the ambiguous way in which the themes of creation and rebellion are handled while inviting speculation from the fanbase is no more than an empty attempt to create a sense of magnificence where there is none.

And the hard truth is that while we, the fans overanalyze and attempt to reconcile this new mythology into the Alien franchise, general audiences (the most important factor when considering another movie) see the shoehorning of these overly bloated narrative additions and needless retconning and reimagining. Most general audiences see the Engineers and the Space Jockey as separate entities, and most general audiences find the assertion that David created the Alien as preposterous.

James Camerons Queen was an addition to the franchise and one that subsequently became the focus of the franchise. Meanwhile, the original Alien while revered has been forgotten. Whereas, these prequels rather than return to the original Alien and explore the possibility that what we saw wasn't all that the creature had up its sleeves, instead Scott and co. thought it prudent to completely ignore the original Alien and reimagine it to fit a new yet shallow narrative hiding behind ambiguity and false grandeur.

What the franchise needs is a course correction. The Queen theme has been overcooked, and the Engineer theme has, for most (but admittedly not all), failed to resonate with audiences. We need to revisit the original Alien, its themes of cosmic horror and its sense of mystery.

@ Leto,

The Markers from Dead Space are, for all intents and purposes, the same as the monoliths from 2001: A Space Odyssey, although with more obviously nefarious intents. Don't get me wrong it's a good idea as 2001 was one of the many influences on the original Alien, but I think the "prop" in question and its origins need to be handled carefully, unless we will just be trading the Space Jockeys and/or Engineers, and David for another nefarious creator of the Alien.

So, Alien: Covenant is a cryo-nigthmare of Elizabeth Show? In next film she wake up, and with David, will discover the Engineer's home world.

BigDave the most similar ships to Giger's designs in sci-fi are the Shadow crab ship (from Babylon 5) https://babylon5.fandom.com/wiki/Shadow_Vessel or the Leviathan from Farscape https://farscape.fandom.com/wiki/Leviathan . But if we study the Shadows more, this https://babylon5.fandom.com/wiki/Death_Cloud is also something rather cool.

I agree. Two very bad decisions:

1. Turning the fossilized (or skeletal) Space Jockey into a suit.
2. Making David the creator of the xenomorph.

But, if there's a will, there's a way. There is a turning back, at least when it comes to David (still ambiguous). He is delusional and everything has been done long before him (and they renounced it).

I think a Large Part of the Engineers is their Bio-Mechanical Technology, and i would think it would be Cool to see this Integration to Various Levels, we see they use this with their Space Jockey Suits, that can also Connect/Fuse them with the Juggernaught/Derelict.... does it have to END there?

I would like to think the Engineers could posses certain Weapons Platforms, that are Not Limited to but Include things such as Walking Platforms that a Single Engineer would be Attached to, like a HR Giger/Xenomorph inspired Star Wars Walker, or War of the Worlds Tripod, and what about Flying Vehicles too like some kind of Bio-Mechanical like Bike, or Bio-Mechanical like Drone with Mechanical Tentacles?

I have always seen the Engineers Pressure suits as kind of a Bio-Mechanical Version of the Centurions TV Show Suits and so i think they could use them to attach to Various Bio-Mechanical Mech like Weapons Platforms.

Maybe they could have like Body Attachments that are Bio-Mechanical that would in effect give them Bio-Mechanical Wings, or even Tentacles like say Doctor Octopus.

I also think they could use some kind of Whip/Ensnare as in a Small Device that would Unleash like a Electronic/Plasma Whip to Ensnare but also to Attack Opponents.

I think it was the Bio-Mechanical HR Giger Aesthetic that stands out and so to USE this Aesthetic with Technology/Weapons that our Engineers could be Attached/Fused with seems to make Sense to me.

Just to have them Armed with like Plasma Riffles that have that Atheistic or Swords that have that Atheistic really does not separate them FAR from being just Predators who have had a bit of HR Giger Atheistic Splashed about.

I think also if we accept they use Xenomorph like Monsters would they just Unleash them and Stay Away or do they have some Contraption that could allow them to Control their Creations?  Who knows..

I would say such Horrors act on Instinct to Procreate and maybe could not be Controlled?

Then maybe we could ask WHY it is that David had not been Attacked?

So with the CRAZY DAVE!

The Franchise as far as Prometheus is a telling of Sub-Creation, a telling of how Knowledge can Shape a Creation, and also WHY the Paradise Lost is also mentioned by RS as far as Intentions...

Its a tale to tell of HOW if your going to Sub-Create then there are a FEW things to be Careful of.

*How Much Knowledge and Free-will your Creation can gain.

*How Superior your Creation is in contrast to the Creator.

*Allowing your Sub-Creation the Ability to Procreate.

So with David it seems that Weyland allowed his Personal David to have more Free-will to be allowed more Human Emotions of a Program that aims to Replicate them...

If David is starting to or has Complex Emotions or a Program that is meant to Replicate them, then in either Case, these could Overwhelm him... and being Stranded ALONE for Many Many Years with NO Maintenance or Contact could have a Profound Effect on the Mental Stability of David or his Programing.

I think the THEMES we see in Prometheus could be the Rescue Point we need...

Did the Engineers Create us? are those Engineers on Planet 4 and LV-223 the Same?  You see if its about Creation and Sub-Creation and the Attempt to Perfect Something...

Then you have to ask HOW would those in Charge of the Engineers think about how a In-Superior Creation in Mankind, had Created a Superior Creation in David!

Weyland wanted to be seen as a God and Felt his Creation of David was Justification to be Granted Immortality when ironically he had Created Immortality in David (to a Degree).  So Weyland had SURPASSED what his Creators had done!

If those LV-223 Engineers are likewise a Sub-Creation of the Engineers, and so like Replicants to them, and it was the LV-223 Engineers who had Attempted to Create Horrors that are Related to the Xenomorph (Deacon).... what would those in Charge and above the Engineers make of David who has also gone on and Perfected something from the Engineers Attempts on LV-223.

So we have those above the Engineers who are looking a Sub-Creation in David who is Superior to his Creators (Mankind) and likely Planet 4 Engineers to, who has Created something Superior to what those LV-223 Engineers had been doing.

Such beings could maybe look at David and his Creation and see GREAT POTENTIAL in these Sub-Creations....

They could then ATTEMPT to make a Amalgamation of Both to get us to the Xenomorph from ALIEN.

The Themes of Prometheus are about Sub-Creation, and Rebellion and so does this START with the Engineers?  so i think a Revelation of some other Species above them who the Engineers Rebelled against could be the way to Change things... this Species does-not have to be VERY HUMAN at all ;)

I think a lot of Problems come from HOW the Prequels intended to explore the Space Jockey and Xenomorph.

Was the Space Jockey a Very Alien Species (Regardless if it was a Space Suit, a Skeleton or a Bio-Mechanical Fiend) if the Space Jockey had NO Connection to Mankind, then any Prequel would have had a Limited Capacity to how to Further Explore the Species ONCE we had given HOW the Eggs came to be...

So then it would had been HOW do the Humans Fit into the Story to Reveal who the Space Jockey was and what those Eggs where?  If they went for a Lovecraftian idea, then its HOW do the Humans Arrive to a Place where we can have the Space Jockey Revealed? 

By Coincidence?  so some Humans arrive at a World to Survey for Colonization or Mining and Uncover Ancient Pyramids and Derelict Ships?

Or they arrive because they Detected the SOS of the Space Jockey from Thousands of Years ago?   This would make it similar to ALIEN, and so where do the Space Jockey come in?  They could have a Separate Part of the Ship where some Space Jockey are in Cryo-sleep and they are Awoken!

But then HOW do they Communicate with the Humans? do they just go POSTAL?  And they cant Communicate and see us as Insignificant maybe they could realize that IF they discover where we came from maybe we could make GOOD HOSTS for the Xenomorph.

So then its a case of WHERE do you go with a Sequel, how do you Explore the Space Jockey Race and where they are in the Galaxy and what their Reaction to us would be NOW?  And then WHERE are they in the Galaxy and WHY have we not seen them in the Franchise apart from the Dead Pilot?

What we would be getting is Basically a Independence Day!  but with that the ALIEN did manage to Communicate via  Telepathically connecting to Dr Okun's Mind, and use him to Communicate, and so any ALIEN Space Jockey maybe could have used similar to be able to Communicate which could OPEN up a possible way to explore them in a Sequel

But Jon Spaights felt that to reveal the Space Jockey as Humanoids who Created us, would have made the Plot Easier and the Archeological Findings of Holloway and Dr Shaw (Watts) was a Ideal Plot Convenience to get us to come across these Engineers and what they was up to, and also make a Sequel open to Explore them from their Home-world.

It was not a BAD PLOT... it Opened up the Franchise to be more than Limited to Ripley and Queens, the Problem was that by the Time of Prometheus what we had was too much Ambiguity to HOW the Xenomorph Connected and its Origins and also having NO such Monsters Running Rampage..

Which then FOX felt they needed to go and Give Fans this and make Alien Covenant... which was a MISTAKE!

Prior to that we could see there was a CONNECTION which just never got it Spoon Fed, the Black Goo and Experiments and Xenomorph were Connected.. but it was never Specified HOW...

And there are ways they could have DONE this without having to go for a Literal Prequel that would make the Derelict something that was NOT Ancient!

I think it may be Clutching at Straws to use Davids Mistakes to make him Unreliable and also the Prometheus DVD Material and Website about a Acknowledgement of something on LV-426 prior to the Prometheus Mission.

I think LETO'S attempts to suggest the Pathogen would always Evolve to something that would become the Xenomorph on ONE hand is INTERESTING.. maybe it could work... on the other it LIMITS the Franchise to being about the Xenomorph in its Iconic Form.

Davids notes and Workshop does show that he had made a Lot of Effort in the Hybridization of many Organisms Traits to create the Xenomorph.

But NEXT i will look at ways to maybe Fix this.

"Having David, who was created by man, be the progenitor of the Alien makes the Alien indirectly our own creation, which in relation to the franchise makes mankind the center of the universe."

I think we could look at it as the Engineers too though, as they Created Us... so without them there would be NO David, and this is kind of WHY they went that route, to show the Hubris of Sub-Creation, in that if they NEVER created us, we would NEVER had created David who would NEVER had created the Xenomorph.

So if Fits Perfectly with the Themes... but another Theme was the Persuit of Perfection, and so that could have played a role  by having David merely PERFECT what the Engineers had tried to.... THUS it would be that David had not Created the Xenomorph at all... but a Superior Version, but even if we went this route.. Fans would have NOT accepted it still as they would only had wanted to see David created a Useless Knock Off!

I would not BLAME everyone..  Ridley Scott could have Rejected FOX but then FOX could have just replaced him with a Director who would Agree with any Changes to go for a Direct Prequel.  Who knows who was the Advocate of the David Creator Plot.... maybe RS has to take some of the Flack for that....  i get the Impression he wanted to GO AWAY from the Beast, and be more about the Engineers, so being Forced to go and give Fans $"£%$^ Xenomorphs comes across as him not being a FAN and so maybe the David did it could have been a Big Finger to the Fans who wanted Xenomorphs and Queens?

And so it then comes down to a BE CAREFUL in what you ASK for....  so that in Hindsight the Franchise should have left the Xenomorph a Mystery.

They should have known that Curve-ball would Potentially be very Divisive!

"I'm not sure Engineers would engage humans. They are a creation species"

I think this depends on How many Worlds the Engineers seed and to what END.. Without trying to go Off Topic, it could seem that they Visit Worlds to keep Check on them to make sure they wont be showing signs of Evolving to Advance Levels.  So the Pathogen likely works as a Good Fail Safe for them.

We can only Speculate/Assume about if there would be Safeguards against Internal Conflict or as Protection against any Potentially Advanced Civilizations, or indeed other Threats.  So i think the Engineers would have and USE what ever they feel is Necessary to Deal with certain Threats, which could include Wayward Creations.

So we can assume their Arsenal could be Catered to different Threats.

"The idea that Engineers don't have a hand weapons is absurd."

Again this depends on what Threats there are in the Galaxy, and do they have a Back Up Plan or are they Very Naive?

At some point in the Past it would be Very Likely they had Hand-to-Hand Weapons... if they Prepare for any Eventuality then it would be Logical that they could have some kind of Hand to Hand Weaponry.

We can Speculate what some of these would look like.

So yes maybe we could have some Halberd/Spear like Weapons, some Sword Like Weapons, that could maybe have a Bio-Mechanical look to them, could they also be Powered by some Energy Source?  So that it is not just a case of HOW SHARP or STRONG the Material they are Constructed from?

I think the Space Jockey/Mask is also more so a Bio-Hazard Suit and so they could use these while they deploy Various Chemical/Biological Weapons.

I think some kind of Shield is Interesting, i would assume they could have the Technology to maybe have a Force Field like Shield, so they only have a Small Device on their Wrists that then Projects a Force Field Shield...

I just cant see them carrying around Bulky Weapons but then we have to ask WHY did the Juggernaught at least not have any kind of Force Shield?

Just have a pint and wait for all this to blow over!

If the pathogen can affect both synthetics and humans, it would likely be working at something both share, such as water or some mineral/electrolyte in the brain/CPU?

Where were the weapons on the LV-223 juggernauts? Should of had a few laying around? I'd think David would have found them. A weapons cache.

David finding advanced alien weapon.

David "Come Miss Shaw, we should have little trouble securing the second juggernaut...." ((David and Shaw stole another juggernaut and didn't seem they had any trouble ...did they have to kill a second weaponless Engineer?))

didn't seem David found any Engineer weapons on Planet 4?(probably would've used them instead of a flare gun?)

Thinking Engineers don't feel the need to develop weapons for imaginary foes?

Engineer weapons: Helmet, Shield and a Pike.

The pike can be used for stabbing but it can also deliver massive electric-shock within a short distance (1-2 meters).

The shield and the helmet are more or less bulletproof.

The Engineers from LV-223 could tear him apart with their bare hands. Maybe they would need some sort of weapon as- knowing David- he might have some surprises waiting for them. Perhaps a targeted EMP at David could make short work of him. I never saw any evidence of such weaponry though.

He should have dropped some club membership leaflets first to emphasise the fun side.

The surgical removal of David from the android is much more drastic, brutal and merciless than the upload/reset/download scenario.

It also would look much more spectacular in the movie. 

Imagine the android cutting himself with a scalpel, opening the wound and rummaging in his own body in order to find the memory bank, which he wants to replace. The android could have "blood" with maroon color.

The memory bank could look similar to this device. It must be a pluggable equipment.

The idea that Engineers don't have a hand weapons is absurd. In one way or another, they will not be able to avoid a direct conflict or encounter with a dangerous organism face to face. And I doubt that they will simply to wave hands. Simply, in the films, there was no suitable situation for using weapons.

But, if Engineers go to Origae-6 to destroy David, they should use a hand weapons.

I'm not sure Engineers would engage humans. They are a creation species....probably wiped out trillions of life forms along the way.....terminating a hundred marines would be beneath them?

Same with humanity...Just nuke the Engineers 'hive'...Maybe slam a FTL asteroid into their planet.

Both have giga scale event weapons.

But I can envision the Engineers having to 'ground pound' to protect their pathogen supply?

"Engineers and their Over Powered weapons would decimate space marines and xenos."

But what if we have a PROMETHEUS Engineer.... as in a Friendly Engineer who would come to Earth to give us some Technology, maybe a Bio-Mechanical Suit we can use as PROTECTION!

He has Stolen Technology from the Gods to Aid Mankind...  but his Fellow Engineers are NOT happy and they send down a 11-12ft Super Engineer to put a STOP to it..

I wonder if that would make a Good Future Plot?

ERM......... LOL

@DK

But Joking aside...

I think Weaponry Discussions are Interesting.

In Prometheus our Engineers look like they are Genetically Enhanced compared to the Planet 4 Engineers, i am not trying to make this about the Differences though.  Just saying that Genetic Engineering seems to be a way they would use for Enforcement.

We dont know to what Extent these Modifications have, but it seems their Pressure Suits that are Infused to their Bodies is made from something that is Organic but also Very Resilient, they are also Genetically Stronger.

It would seem that Genetic Engineer is what they see as a Weapon and hence likely the Intentions that the Xenomorphs and the like would be used as Bio-Weapons.

But this TOPIC is about other Weapons, and for a Race who have Genetically Engineered maybe Super Soldiers and Horrific Beasts then you would NEED a kind of Safeguard and Protection.

So looking at the Weapons we have seen in the Drafts and Comics, i cant see WHY NOT... as in sure i think they would Posses some Weaponry and Especially Ranged Attacks.

The Power Gauntlets are interesting it seems they can Manipulate Matter/Anti Mater and are some kind of Gravity Weapon, where they Project a Force upon a Target, much like some JEDI can use.

The Plasma Riffle which it seems to be i think is more in tone with the Popcorn Comic Necessity but it makes sense as a Weapon to introduce for the Eradication of Serve Hostile Threats which the Xenomorphs would be.  And so Energy Weapons are something that i think they could Posses.

Other Weapons they could maybe use could include...

Sensory Weapons.... something like this could be USEFUL against Xenomorphs.

Dart Gun.... as in something that would Fire Dart Projectiles that are like Small Needles that act like Tranquilizer Guns and these could be loaded with Chemicals that could Stun a Target, or be used with the Black Goo.

You would think they would have Invested in Defensive Weapons to, but we can only Speculate, as it would be idea to have some kind of Weapon that would Negate/Deactivate the Effects of the Pathogen.

"Also, BigDave, no offense but let's try not to go off-topic and not turn this thread into why Engineers are smaller/different than the Space Jockey, etc, ok? "

Indeed i actually are one of those who Accept the Engineers for who they are, and only suggested in Topics alternatives to please those not happy with the Engineers ;)

so maybe they could have some kind of SHRINKING RAY GUN that can Enlarge or make things Smaller ;)  Just messing with YA!

I think Firstly i would like to look at WHY those Ships had NO Weapons if they are a Military Ship (which i think they are not)... it was likely the Engineers had Controlled the Worlds they Seed and Visit so that there is NO risk of them becoming Technologically Advanced to Pose a Threat!

Which is kind of Naive as these beings must see themselves as being the ONLY Powerful and Significant Race...  But do they have Internal Conflicts? they maybe could have a LONG TIME ago....

And so its likely they would have Possessed Weaponry at some point, and Certainly if they are aware of the Horrors the Experiments on LV-223 are about then you would need some PROTECTION!

So some ANT MAN Technology makes sense!

Just JOKING again ;)

Being Serious for a moment then for a Race of beings who are at least Millions of Years old, then in their History you would think they would have Created some Pretty Advanced Weaponry ;)

I will attempt to Break Some Down Next!

I think something to remember is that Daniels is a Problem for David, he cant allow her to Interact with the other Colonist, if she Disappears then Tennessee may become Suspicious 

But i am not so sure they would just KILL her off, i think we see that David is Sadistic and he would likely Enjoy the Fact that he is in CONTROL and i would bet he would like to Interact with Daniels and keep her Captive.

We know David does-not have a High Opinion of Mankind and a thing to look at is that HOW he was treated by Mankind is via their Upbringing and Knowledge where they view him as just a MACHINE.

A Baby is Born Innocent and its their Upbringing that would SHAPE what kind of a Person they would become and HOW they would look at certain things and view David or treat him.

I would Suspect that David would have NO use for the Colonist apart from having them SET-UP a Basic Colony, from where David could then take them out... and then Raise those Human Embryo's maybe he would Engineer them?

I think he would KEEP our Daniels Alive so she can Witness what he has done, i think that could prove to be a Downfall for him.

I think it really depends on Davids Agenda and Actions, as he could just as Easily kill Daniels and Tennessee he would have NO use for them, he could FIX the records on the Computer and give what ever Excuse he wants to the Colonist that he Awakens.

If we assume he wants to Create Xenomorphs, then i think he would use Daniels to Extract her Egg Cells to use to Produce more Xenomorph Eggs or Face Huggers, and then use the Adult Colonist as HOSTS.

It would be Horrific for Daniels to discover that she is in effect being the MOTHER to the Horrors that David is UNLEASHING.

This assumes this would be Davids main Agenda.

@NTFS

I think thats interesting but also a bit Complex, i think sure when the Colonist are awake and IF they discover who David really is... then they would want to Incapacitate him....

The Covenant Ship would likely have Walter Spare Parts, are their enough to Construct a New Body and Head?  Are these Parts Compatible with David?  or is David already in Walters Body?

so what i am saying is that would they need David? and so can they Build another Walter?

If they need the Body that David has then they would try and WIPE his Mind Clean.... if they dont then they just build another Walter...

But a KEY THING is that it would be likely that David has Uploaded himself to the SHIP Computer and so he could Download himself back into another Walter that the Colonist would Build or back into his Body after they FACTORY RESET.

And so i think such a Plot would be Highly Likely, and so i like what your saying as in they would think they have Eradicated David....   only to at a latter point, we see that MUTHUR who is now David, just Uploads himself into the Walter they are using...

So they would be Totally Unaware.... i think something like this could work... it would then give us NO reason to have Daniels or Tennessee to be Killed Off and would bring in more SHOCK when Daniels latter discovers some Horrific Experiments on the Colonist and then REALIZES that David is still around.

Certainly that seems a way to look at it, in that if it was a Naturally Occurring Organism it would be Biological, the Queen actually looks much more Biological than any Mechanical/Synthetic Aesthetic.

If we look at the Xenomorph from Alien Covenant then what we see is something that is Mostly Organic Looking, and so IF they continue with the route that this is the Precursor to the Xenomorph in ALIEN then it could look like that something Synthetic has been Engineered into the Process.

Where as the 1979 Beast was based of HR Gigers Design Aesthetic and they should also taken on board how he saw that Shared Aesthetic with the Ships in that they are GROWN and that they are a Amalgamation of Organic and Mechanical Aesthetics and that the SHIPS would Produce the Eggs thus this is WHY the Xenomorph had that Aesthetic.

So it was Truly ALIEN.

But ALAS...

But is black goo expensive to manufacture...or is it a natural resource?

We will not resist the black goo- we will demand it!

Old Black Water, Keep on Rolling.

I would be worried about a one sided affair.

Engineers and their Over Powered weapons would decimate space marines and xenos. Or they would just bomb you with black goo and wait for you to kill each other?

Probably off topic...But is black goo expensive to manufacture...or is it a natural resource?

The battle for black goo reserves maybe a storyline?

Alien series needs to up it's kill count! Star wars is killing billions, Star trek is up in the billions ...Dune is 61 billion

Alien series is 200+  humans....maybe 30 humans killed by xeno?

Before we do the Black Marker idea(I like the idea btw)..

We need to know what a synthetic mind is.... Is it organic? Just memory chips? ?  Can it be modified by a biological substance? can the memory be Uploaded, downloaded, updated.... or even changed very easily?

Is David acting crazy because he came in contact with it(black goo)?

It seems like the pathogen has been the only real weapon besides the alien itself thus far. Weaponry besides the pathogen were brains or brawn. I don't think new weapons or a time travel element would work. If the franchise is to continue, it should maybe paint itself out of its corner by chosing a direction and then stick with it- let the chips fall where they may.