Comments (Page 198)

Certainly i think its interesting to see how others would TRY and Continue with Prometheus, expand maybe some things that were a bit Vague in Terms of Theatrically and to offer a Continuation of Questions Raised by Prometheus and those that are NOT really Answered in Prometheus...  As far as Theatrically.

*We get Indication that we are a Product of the Engineers Interference both from our Genetic Origins and Creations, to our Development from Cave-Men to the level of Technology just prior to the Middle Ages

(We never got much indication of WHY this Investment of Time by the Engineers).

*We see at some point the Engineers had conducted Experiments that are NOT really Genetically Connected to us, such Horrors which Theatrically was Ambiguous to WHY and so we have Davids "sometimes to create one must first destroy" to go by.

(And so these are things that also a Sequel could covered, because again in Part these are things Dr Shaw would want Answers too).

*In spite of their Discovery, where Dr Shaw may have been so Wrong... she holds on to her Faith that surely a God would not be so Cruel and so WHO had Created them.

(so this is something ELSE that she wants to Discover but would such a Discovery be closer to her Faith or even Further away and Horrific).

*We have the Arc of David, a Superior Creation, who feels Mistreated by his Creator (and Humans), who longs to be Free, and Finally Becomes Free, he has a Dislike for Humans, but in Dr Shaw he comes across a Interesting Case, and so it seems he is Interested in WHAT drives her to Carry On, in Spite of the Discoveries.  Her Faith is what drives her on, and gives her Strength and also contributes to her Kindness.

(so its a Question of Davids interest in this and what effect Dr Shaw has on David, and how they could change his outlook on Life and Purpose is something that could have been explored).

*We then come to the Extended Scene a little... were Dr Shaw does want to go to where they (Engineers) come from for her Answers as she has Nothing to go back home to.  And the Extended Version we know David says the Engineer told him they come from a Place we would call PARADISE...

(so there is that to Explore, in what Context would we consider the Engineers World Paradise?).

Then you do have other Questions like What is a Soul?, where do we go when we Die?  I think its interesting to see David go on a Journey for more of a Purpose than he was Created, and Dr Shaw could certainly Inspire him, so there are a lot of Blade Runner like Themes to be explored....  would it be IRONIC that David is the only being who is actually as close to having the Soul that Dr Shaws Faith would indicate?

So i am not offering my view on any of these, just Highlighting some of the things to have explored that had not really been done so in Alien Covenant.

And so the parts in the (Brackets) are showing what Potentially could had been Explored, and that i think in part is the reason you went about with your Version of where to go NEXT... which i think has been a Labor of Love and something Interesting to Eventually Read ;)

Surely i think they was on the Same Page of where they was going, what i was saying is that things CHANGE and Evolve, as they go along... they keep/change things from Jon Spaights work until Lindeloffs, then his work is changed a bit for Shooting then things are changed in the Edit Process.

But they all had the same idea of where they are Evolving the Process, and they had a Broad Strokes idea of where they are going Next....  which would have been to STEER away from ALIEN and go where Dr Shaw and David would go.....

Ridley Scott gave us some Clues to where it would go, and some would come back to some of the Questions that Dr Shaw had.....

Who Made Them?

Why they Created us?

Why they changed their Minds?

Is there a Creator above the Engineers, it seemed this was the Indication of WHERE they would go NEXT and then its a case of are THESE beings Benevolent and not like those Engineers... the indication would be that they WOULD NOT be...

so this is OFF TOPIC.. but i was to show that they had a Idea where roughly we would go NEXT... before the Process of this become something that they could not get a Working Draft they was pleased with between 2013-2014....... which brought us to the Changes in 2015 that became Alien Covenant.... which really brushed aside a lot of what a Prometheus 2 could have covered.

One Final thing, the Commentary does give us more indication of the Infection and in other Interviews indeed i recall it was suggested that Fifield would eventually had ended up like the Engineer Head, and that Holloway was going the same way (slower Rate).

Which if we consider that, then it would suggest the Black Goo was to Replicate the Pathogen in a Human Host but then would Destroy the Humanoids.... But other Life-Forms would instead Mutate into something ELSE.

A Confusion comes from the Movie is Ambiguous without the Commentary, and then you have to try and Consider what is going on, and then you could be drawn to looking at Previous concepts and Drafts for say Fifield which would give you a different indication of the Effects, than what the Commentary had suggested.

So i think in Context to the TOPIC its a case of these Writers are telling us what is going on with Certain Scenes that are more Ambiguous Visually.

I will add regarding the Engineer and Scale..... i was always one to accept the Space Jockey as a Engineer, the Flaw as Scale... by that i mean there is a Difference in Size which we have to put down to a Oversight!

The Intention was to have the Engineers as being TALLER... but for what ever reasons, at Shooting they decided to use 7ft+ Actors and hope that Camera Angles can make them appear Larger.

some Fans will use the Scale to Argue the Engineers certainly cant be the Space Jockey....  the Intention at Shooting is 8ft beings.... but they could have continued with the Space Jockey by simply showing that there could be TALLER Engineers..  Not EVERY Human is about 6ft, so if there are 7.5ft Humans then WHY NOT some 10ft Engineers? (same difference between 7.5ft Human to 6ft Human).

The other thing that could support the Size Difference, if we accept that Engineers are NOT all Uniform 8ft would be the Comment by Dallas.... it looks like it Grew Out of the Chair.... so that could explain the Space Jockey also growing a bit more.

So for me the Scale is NOT a massive Problem, for MANY it is...  When i discus the Scale it on the basis that this was INTENDED to be bigger, but what we got is NOT and that they could have used Special Effects but Ridley Scott had decided to NOT do and as i pointed out above, having 8ft Engineers should not really Conflict the differences.

Because Humans are not limited to 6ft, and so say just as a 7.5ft Human could Grow out the Chair, then Taller Engineers could become Larger likewise.

@Michelle

I know sometimes things can be hard to make out in my posts and people can get lost, sometimes i do too ;)

I was mainly agreeing with what you put, as far as looking at what the Commentary shows us, i think i need to Consider to what CONTEXT is this Topic... and to look at it as Watching the Movie and Commentary with your EYES CLOSED.... then Fundamentally certain things we dont get to see.....  I maybe JUMPED the Gun a little, as i have NOT seen the Commentary for a LONG Time and then i have only seen it Properly just Once, as far as Start to Finish.

so i think i have to Watch it Again then come back.....

As far as Contradictions i was talking only slightly, NOT that there is a Massive Shift.... the Bigger Shifts are from Concept Alien 01 The Master Narrative  to the Various Drafts... right to the Cutting Room Floor.

So in Context to the Topic... maybe its to discus the Theatrical Cut, and parts of the Furious Gods, Screen Writers Commentary and any Interviews only in Context to the Promoting of the Box Office Release and after and the Promoting of the DVD Release.

so i maybe should NOT be offering any comments UNTIL i have watched the Commentary again.

So from what i recall, the Furious Gods and Commentary was intending to Support the Movie by suggesting..

*Mankind is neither a Product of a Random Events or Evolution, or Creation by a Magical Godlike beings.

*The Engineers are a Ancient Humanoid Race who had played a Role in our Creation via Sacrificing one of their own so that their Sacrifice/DNA is what leads to our Creation or Evolution... regardless which way we look at it or where this Took Place, it was to show us that WITHOUT the Engineers Performing this Sacrifice then there would be NO Humans or at least other Complex Life.

*The Clues that Dr Shaw and Holloway had discovered are indications that Mankind was Pre-visited by beings from Space who are indicated to have Influenced our Evolution as far as Knowledge.   They had left Clues that the Scientists saw as a Map, that takes us to LV-223

*The discovery on LV-223 of these Humanoid Engineers that have a DNA match is to show us that we CAME from them.

*The Indication from what i recall was that the Engineers had become Disappointed with how we turned out, and they had began to Experiment with various things that related to the Black Goo, in order to go and USE this on us to EVOLVE us, see what happens to us.

This is one thing by Lindeloff, that RS contradicts a little by when he says they had Created a Specific Bio-Weapon to use on Unruly Creations who had got out of Control and that they use this to WIPE the Slate Clean...

I think i will come back to other stuff after i have Re-Watched the Commentary

A lot of stuff had no Answers, and was left Ambiguous, such as WHY we was created, and WHY we was to be Destroyed more so WHY we had been Created.  It depends with these who you Listen to as far as Writers or Ridley Scott  also Lindeloff makes it NO secret that he Avoids explaining things, sometimes this comes across as Lazy, but then as he says it leaves things open to discus and if you are more Direct and Spoon Feed stuff then when you go to make a Sequel you kind of have to Stick with what was said prior.

I also have school work.

I saw it the other Day and the Predators had Transported a number of Face Huggers onto the Ship.

The Pred-Alien Comment is interested as INDEED it seemed to Produce Normal Xenomorphs that lacked any Predator DNA.

The Appearance was as with ALIENS and so it contradicts the theories we could have about WHY there was differences between Xenomorphs in the Franchise.

Such as Different Cargo Holds....

Or that they loose the Dome Carapace as they Mature.

"Prometheus is really an existential journey: Is there a God? Is there a purpose? Are we alone in the universe?"

Certainly the Purpose of the Movie was to indicate that the TWO Fundamental Beliefs that we have on Earth are neither Correct...  We are NOT a Product of a Accidental Event that then leads to a series of things being at the Right Place and Time to lead to Evolution, while also showing we are NOT created by Mythical Magical Gods but that we are the Product of the Donation/Sacrifice of Genetic Material from some Ancient Humanoids, who then further came back to Evolve us Technologically (Knowledge) and Genetically

So through Dr Shaw she is a Woman Brought up on Faith and so she is Searching for something MORE, likewise Weyland is to a degree too (he mainly just wants to  be Granted Extended Life) and so through Dr Shaw and the comment by Weyland the Movie was loosely asking "where are from" and "where do we go" when we DIE that is.  With Prometheus they had indicated the First One, but "where we go" was Never answered.

So Dr Shaw is making Discoveries that Contradict parts of her Faith, but she is still holding on to her Faith that there has to be more than what she Discovered, Questioning who Created the Engineers, and perhaps expecting surely there must be some Benevolent Creator above the Engineers.

Regarding the Weyland Death Scene.... it has a slight amount of Ambiguity for some, but it is more clearly saying that there is NOTHING for Weyland to gain for his Agenda of these Gods can Grant him more Life....

We then come to that Question.. Where do we go when we DIE?  Mr Weyland asked that in his Hologram Briefing....  and Weyland is NOW about to Die and he will SOON Discover if there is NOTHING! or if he will INDEED he will LIVE ON in a After Life.... this i feel is WHY it is that David said about the GOOD JOURNEY...

Hmm. Ok.

AVPR was very dark and pretty much black at crucial parts.

They may have misinterpreted Dan O'bannon's premise for less is more. too much darkness actually bores people.

I Raptus There is probably good reason why you haven't watched AVPR in a while. You have my sympathies if you re-watch.

Michelle

I think Sir Peter Weyland is perhaps interpreted as a too one-dimensional character - selfish (money, prolonging his own life). He is really interested in philosophical questions and has made important discoveries in medicine (curing cancer).

In Prometheus, Weyland himself says: “I have spent my entire lifetime contemplating the questions: Where do we come from? What is our purpose? What happens when we die?”

In Alien: Covenant, Weyland says to David: “I refuse to believe that mankind is a random byproduct of molecular circumstances. No more than the result of mere biological chance. No . . . there must be more. And you and I, son, we will find it”.

In this context, it makes sense that the dying Weyland in Prometheus disappointingly says “There is nothing” and David agrees: “I know”. When David wishes him “a good journey”, I wonder if he isn’t sarcastic or ironic (not loving his “father”). “The journey” is, of course, the death struggle.

I’ve been really busy with school work and football. But don’t worry I’ll be here to only respond to topics such as aquatic or terrestrial battles.  

Nice to see you’re back shark! I agree that Purussaurus would win, unless Titanoboa actually did feed on crocodiles. Then I think Titanoboa would win

Ok.

I got it from sameerprehistorica 

I choose Purussaurus,also The True Shark boy,did you take inspiration from my topic:

Deinosuchus Vs. Titanoboa?

@Chili

Just a quickie.

David offers two thoughts to Sir Peter.

He agrees with him there is nothing there for him "I know"

but then wishes him a safe journey.

That can have traction.  

@BigDave

As you know I fundamentally disagree with you about this issue. It would help me if you could provide examples where Jon contradicted Damon or Ridley on the meaning of the film in 2012. Remember this is a thread about Prometheus 2012. I will happily consider your examples.

I went into Furious Gods expecting a ton of vagueness based on the internet "experts" and found one example where a production designer thought Fifield and Holloway were on the way to blowing up like the head whereas others focused on the Mutagenic nature of the gloop as an upgrade.

I find clarity where it was intended.

I find ambiguity where it was intended.

Of the big three Jon,Damon and Ridley I can find no contradictions in the final decisions for the movie and its a point that Damon made in autumn 2012 he said the three of them knew what Ridley was trying to do. By then there was a body of people on the internet that said it was a muddle. It was not it was a mix of clarity where intended and ambiguity where it was intended.

That is entirely different from where next. 

However I study human behaviour and what I see are a lot of people being dishonest with themselves. One simple example. The Space Jockey is an Engineer end of and instead of saying I am out of here they start using issues of scale and whether its a suit (those issues if one is interested are acknowledged and the reasoning explained, they are planned artistic licence). Anyone watching the film and the money shot when the Gantry appears should have no doubt whats being communicated. Then read seven hours of material and its stark raving obvious that is what was intended.

There is a ton of ill informed half baked stuff about what was in the film never mind what might come next and thats why, because I admire all the team who made this film, I will stand my ground when people complain its not clear what the core thread of the story is which I gave in my earlier post.

Do we know the relationship between the Moon and the Homeworld NO! Do we know exactly what caused the out break on the Moon NO! Do we know the relationship between the Pebble Ship and the Juggernauts NO! All that would have come next. 

@Chili.

Great post. What you are doing is separating out the emotional content of the character from the rules of the environment. The narrative and the story comes from the former and it is hardly ever discussed in fandom, its nearly all about the rules.

The central rule of the story is someone is responsible for the creation of worlds and life. Its not benign its not an accident it has intent. The little tiny bit we knew was a freaky looking character was carrying around some really nasty stuff which thematically dealt with non consensual parasitical reproduction which was highly unsympathetic and could be received as punishment.

Carrying on with the rules for a moment by the end of Prometheus we know this stuff is produced on an industrial scale by our creators.

Now we move to the story.

Elizabeth is our proxy. What answers are we looking for :-

1) Do we have a soul and where do we go when we die (the little girl who has lost her mother).

2) Are we alone. On the whole she believes we are not the movie dialogue about faith and the deleted scene about Africa. 

3) Why did they make us and why did they want to destroy us. 

There are lots of ways you can find the answers for her. It won't happen now the trail as they say has gone cold.

Back to the rules.

There has been an argument (Prometheus) and it turns out the guys who made us are on the wrong side and not doing well. (The Moon).

So and this is the 100,000,000 Fox question that they avoided by saying everyone wants the monster in. If these guys have rebelled and stolen something what does the other side of the argument look like. Once you decide that then you can give Elizabeth her answers.

Back to story

Noomi wanted to find her answers and have trouble with them.

Michael thought David was on a search for meaning.

They have form Damon said it really began in the infirmary when he admitted he was interrogating her dreams and of course he is responsible for her becoming pregnant.

So make some rules decide on the dynamic of E & D and get going.

Your destination has to flesh out what an intelligent creation looks like and decide whether being created by dark angels has consequences. For inspiration we have Dr Frankenstein and Sir Peter Weyland.

I hope that contributes a little more to your questions. The one that will never get answered is however you frame God who made that. But there is plenty to get our teeth into before we get there.  

Predators from AvP couldn't take eggs from the pyramid because the pyramid was destroyed, and everything around too.

I agree with much of what is said here. There are some themes in this movie, sacrifice being one, but to me, Prometheus is really an existential journey: Is there a God? Is there a purpose? Are we alone in the universe?

These questions are raised by Shaw, clinging on to her Christian faith symbolized by the cross. These questions are answered negatively by David: “There is nothing”. But Shaw isn’t really a believer, is she? She is more of an agnostic, perhaps, searching for the answers?

We, the audience, are no closer to the answers, are we? Well, we know that we are created by the Engineers (there is extraterrestrial life) and that they are no benevolent gods at all. But how did the Engineers come into existence? Is there only evolution or is there something else behind it all?

I like the idea of a mobile queen. Never occurred to me. If AVPR could have its own reboot of sorts done well, it could be a good movie. It did a couple things right but they were fleeting and not nearly enough to carry the movie.

It would have made sense for the Predators to take eggs from the site in AVP before leaving since they were already in the neighborhood but there was nothing in the movie to indicate that they had. And how could they obtain the eggs without having the face huggers activate? It seems to follow nonetheless. It almost seems like a similar mystery to the A3 egg. Well, not really a mystery but bad writing.

According to the Strause Brothers (Colin & Greg) who wrote and directed AVPR, and whose company Hydraulx provided the movies visual effects claim that the PredAlien was a juvenile Queen AKA a Princess Xenomorph, that would have in time transformed into a full-on Queen.

DK you raise an interesting point about that scene. I think we should discuss the elephant in the room about the Predalien. I started a new thread as my response was too long for this thread. 

 http://www.alien-covenant.com/topic/49197

"Lemme simplify my point..."

I think thats a Hard Question...

I would say YES to ALIEN... but i think as far as what ALIEN had evolved into over the Franchise, then i would have rather had gone to WHO the Space Jockey are as opposed to more Queens and Bugs and Ripleys...

Just the Execution was FLAWED, they Toned it down too much with Prometheus.

The Thing that kept me Interesting in ALIEN was more so about HOW/WHERE and WHEN was that Xenomorph Created, and WHO are Space Jockey are.. that Mystery!

If the Movie was about a Cave on a Baron World that had Eggs that was Discovered as they Intercept a SOS from another Ship that had got there First (especially if this Ship was NOT a Alien Race)... 

And so we have a Cave, Eggs.... NO signs of Technology, Murals, Rituals... just a Alien Organism found in a Baron Cave...

Then i think ALIEN would have been a Decent B Movie Horror Flick with a COOL Monster... and Nothing more for me...

Yeah we could have go ALIENS still etc... but for me the STAND OUT Scene of the Franchise is still the Discovery of the Derelict, Exploring the Ship, the Pilot Room and then the Egg Cargo Hold.

Each time i saw the Space Jockey Scene i was in AWE!

That is what is ALIEN in my mind anyway, the Prequels had made it less so to a degree.

@Ignorantguy

Certainly i had not indicated the Movie would have been MADE without ALIEN, i was saying the Plot would have worked if it was NOT connected, but Certainly would such a Pitch of a Plot that was  NOT SET in the same Universe had got the Go Ahead?

Maybe or maybe NOT... but Certainly it would have been Unlikely to have got the Level of Budget for such a Project... this Investment INDEED came about as we was getting a Movie set within the ALIEN Universe.

If it was not then such a Movie would have been Much Less Likely to see the Day of Light, or had anywhere near the Budget.... more so if the Pitch was just Jon Spaights as he had NOT had anything Produced at this Point, why they went for a more Well Known Damien Lindeloff to Re-Write it.

So your Point is Very Valid, without Alien then Idea/Plot would have struggled to get off the Ground... or Certainly would NOT have been as BIG a Block Buster Investment.

@Michelle

I think some Elements are open to Interpretation, some Elements had enough shown to us, that when we consider the Commentary and Ridley Scott and Damien Lindeloffs Comments they draw us to a Certain Conclusions... some other Interviews do Muddy the Water a little, and things had Evolved from Inception to the Cutting Room Floor, but as far as Comments/Commentary regarding the Theatrical Cut then the Summary you make is what i conclude from the Movie too.

But still there are Elements that allow for Interpretation and Discussion and Opinion, some people do seem to Overlook the Cast in the Movie where some Dialog is Actually there to SPOON FEED us whats going on... well to Indicate things to us....

The Nuts and Bolts could be as Simple as...

*Ancient Superior Beings got Bored, and Decided to Sub-Create "idle hands are the devil's workshop"

*Decided maybe they can make some USE of this Creation and Teach us Stuff (but there is Ambiguity to this because it could be a Group of Engineers decided to do this, and it was not the Overall Plan for us).

*Engineers then began to Experiment with other stuff on LV-223 and became quite Fascinated with this, and Decided that Actually these Experiments and the DNA they have are something that they would go and UPGRADE their Creations with... what out of Boredom? because they found that the Pathogen Deacon DNA is something they see as being something NEW to try as they are Bored of our Creation?

Maybe but there is Elements of Ambiguity to that... its not CLEAR CUT and DRY.

So some things are Ambiguous in My Opinion that is, does that mean thats Correct? Nope! but RS had made further Indications about certain things that changes things.

A Example "sometimes to create one must first destroy"

This can be taken as those Engineers certainly at least on LV-223 had became much more Interested in what makes things like the Deacon Tick, than Evolved Apes like us, and so its a case of lets go and Evolve our Creations with this Deacon DNA/Traits because they feel this is a Enhancement, something Better, or they became bit Bored of Ape-Men.

On the other side of the Coin it could be that this STUFF is what they  had intended to go and WIPE the Slate Clean, that then Hundreds or Thousands of Years they can come back and START AGAIN...

Now my Interpretation on this is that the Last Statement is more True... or Was.... but that those Guys on LV-223 had became Fascinated with the Deacon and how it came to be and Decided to Factor this Beast as a Evolutionary Stage instead of WIPE the Slate.... the Question is that would this had been a Unautherised use of the Creation/Seeding and Destruction Tool... which is a FALLEN ACT?

Ideas about Certain things Change/Evolve in the Minds of those who are Giving us these Prequels, this is why some of Ridley Scotts latter comments after the DVD Release appear to differ a bit from what was on the DVD/Blu-Ray Extras.

@chli

I would just like to demonstrate how I make judgements because its clear yet again from this thread people can not establish more than "Its vague" which isn't helpful to you or anyone reading. If matters are still "it could mean anything" after 7 years it is unlikely they are going to have an epiphany.

Humans.

 1) The movie begins with an image of sacrifice with some purpose. The creature disintegrates and we see images of cells being attacked broken down and reformed. All the natural informational stimuli (colour, music, aesthetic) indicate the cells produced are an enhancement and a wonder.    

2) We cut to cave paintings with someone taller than humans pointing to a star system. The implication is there is a connection between these creatures in the paintings and the previous scene. 

3) Dial forward and Elizabeth discovers our DNA matches the inhabitants of the Moon and she tells us we come from them. There is no other narrative agenda nothing indicating anything different.

4) Charlie having sobered up reacts to the news they made us and said there you go there not gods they made us and earth is a goddamn petri dish. David has already said they are mortal after all. So a superior species deliberately created us. 

So we are now in lock down the inhabitants of the Moon did make us and through hours and hours of documentary there is no evidence to dispute it.   

5) We then discover they are involved in making monsters and the black glope produces outcomes which hint at what we saw in the first film. We see images of sacrifice in the Sanctuary which is a place of worship a point that Elizabeth lets the audience know.(Headroom).

6) We know by the end our makers are not very nice and they intended to come to Earth and destroy and replace us. The story evolves through the Hammerpedes, Fifield, Charlie and the Deacon to show us what they are trying to replace us with. Fifield was mid point to the deacon so as not to steel the coup at the end. (Production confirmed).

So they made us because they could and they want to replace us because they think they have learnt how to. There isn't one single narrative twist, production comment to suggest anything else and as Damon said Elizabeth is our proxy she is telling us what is going on. 

We were made by dark angels who had Promethean like stolen technology. The huge philosophical point is our relationship with our creators is not benign or an accident. We are as constructed in the mind of our creators as much as David was and can be upgraded.

Why did they want to destroy? Because they could and wanted to improve upon the design in their view. Why else would they destroy us? Why is there Davids signpost in order to create first you must destroy. 

How come they were destroyed at exactly the time Christ died? No idea.

Is the relationship with the Engineers Home world and the Moon consensual. Two possibilities :-

1. a) Yes and they are one group with an anthrax island and a seperate place to hang out. That doesn't make sense because the Moon had been unattended for 2,000 years there is no evidence of rebuild anyone coming to sort out the mess etc etc   
2. b) No the Moon is rebellion from the Home world, that makes sense and the Home world sees the place as quarantined.

So we now know the Space Jockey race made us and they made other nasty stuff besides and they intended to use the glope to change things which everyone and their dog on the production team said was essentially the liquid form of the Morph.

Who made them ? No Idea

What does God think of them ? No idea.  

I do not see dissembling in any of this a cigar is a cigar unless you are navel gazing or easily confused or both or have your own pet conspiracy theory and for the avoidance of doubt people don't have to like it.  

Gavin You don't have any point there as the comparison is not fair. Why do you compare a movie which generated a franchise which was in decline for years when the second one appeared.

And to answer your question I would rather take 2001 instead of either of them. Hack, today I would take Beyond the Black Rainbow over any of them.

Lemme simplify my point...

Desert island DVD, you can take either Alien or Prometheus, not both which do you take?

If we could poll that chances are most of us would choose Alien.

@BigDave I repeat myself, there would be no Prometheus without the Alien connection. What studio would spend 130 million on Sci-Fi horror without brand recognition or adapting an already established IP? And then again when Prometheus was launched wasn't it said to be in the same universe? The prequel route was clear taken only with Covenant because of fan reaction and corporate greed...

@Gavin I forgot to mention that your precious fear of the unknown was undermined in the first movie by Giller and Hill, who introduced the Corporate conspiracy in the script and who wanted to make the Alien a human weapon and the crew of the Nostromo test subjects. Was that not human-centric? In my book Ancient Aliens are far better than what Alex Jones spouts... 

@dk

Certainly.... i think IF the Plot was changed to NOT connect to ALIEN and so Aesthetic was toned down too, so it was a Stand Alone... Different Shape Ship, Different Space Suit to a degree.... NO Weyland Company.

As a Stand Alone i think we would have had Multiple Sequels by NOW that would have become Interesting.

A Prequel was always going to be some kind of Poisoned Chalice

Firstly i will apologize in Advance to Chli for this Next bit being a bit OFF TOPIC and also to Gavin in the hope you dont take this too Personal ;)

Ignorantguy had beat me to a Certain Point...

At the Point when HR Giger was brought on to work on ALIEN, the Pilot of the ALIEN ship, had been Conceived to be Humanoid/Bi-Pedal in Aesthetic.   His Concepts had depicted Bald Humanoids who Self Sacrifice to Procreate the Xenomorph and the Space Jockey was a Space Suit.  The Actual Prop ended up looking a little Different to his Concepts.

So when exploring the Space Jockey in a Prequel which they deemed as the More Important thing to expand upon, over a Beast that had been shown over and over.  Then Jon Spaights had decided that there are reasons you have to do something like he did...  You had to introduce a PLOT to HOW those Human Characters would END up arriving at the Location the Movie would take Place.

The other option would be by Pure Accident... or to have detected the same SIGNAL that the Nostromo was sent to Investigate...  So the Chariots of the Gods Plot worked as a way that would give a Reason WHY some Humans would end up on LV-426 (at that time).

The same Plot would also open the Door for Possible Communication and USE of their Technology. By and with Humans (and Created Androids).   The Alternative would be a ALIEN Race that had NO interaction with Mankind, who then Humans would have NO WAY to talk to or Vice Versa which would Limit any Potential Sequel.

Going for a 15ft Elephantine Organism/Race that has NO WAY to communicate with us, would just show us a Species that would just go POSTAL on us perhaps? (they could have came up with ways around this Telepathy for Instance).

They had a Dilemma of how do you represent the Space Jockey as the Skeleton of a Alien Race, especially if they decide the Snorkel is a Organic Trunk (which it did-not appear to be) so you Potentially could have had something that would look more Comical than the New Born, Actually the New Born would look like the Space Jockey if we attached a Separate Breathing Apparatus to the New Borns Nasal Area...

So they went for Humanoids... we have to Wonder how much Spaights really knows about the Franchise, it appears NOT too much!  Some things he overlooked...

Also it seems he was NOT AWARE of the HR Giger Concepts, that depicted Humanoids, well it seemed he never indicated them as a Influence in Furious Gods.

Regarding Alien Engineers etc.... it conflicts ALIEN, in a few ways.... if we accept it as a Direct Prequel, then the Signal is not the same, the Beacon comes from the Pyramids... it is likely this is to SHOW what also happened to the Space Jockey on another Part of LV-426 some Thousands of Years Prior.

I will AGREE that Prometheus had Toned down too much of the ALIEN DNA and lacked enough ALIEN Action....

I also agree the Chariots of the Gods Plot and Engineers are steering a bit away from what was ALIEN about the First Movie, especially more so with Alien Covenant.

something more Lovecraftian would have fitted more, but then its HOW do the Humans come to this Place?  It would again have to be via Accident, or detect the Space Jockey Warning Beacon.

The SCALE was a Problem.... but the Intentions were 15ft Engineers, then 12ft.... then at Production 10ft but ALAS what we ended up with was 7.5ft by Virtue of Ridley Scott preferring to NOT use much Special Effects and CGI.

Again Chli sorry for going OFF TOPIC ;)

And Gavin..... i do think something more ALIEN should be introduced as a Higher Layer of that Creation Cake! Something more ALIEN.

To the last two posts- Prometheus would have been a good stand alone movie unrelated to the Alien movie (which was originally touted as a direct Alien prequel). Ridley should have maybe just made Prometheus as its own franchise without the Alien aesthetic. 

If a movie needs extras on a DVD later after the theatrical run to fill in blanks, then that seems like an admission that audiences felt the movie was lacking and that translated to the box office bottom line. It's not that audiences want everything spoon fed, but most probably don't want to do bacheloriate level research prior to watching a new movie. Don't blame the audience for the cold shoulder. 

I think that with Prometheus we had a Evolving Concept, that Certainly had a Basis during the Progress of Production and Idea, that had then been Evolved a bit prior to Shooting, and then some Elements further changed Post Shooting but there is still a Base Structure that was Present up to and after 2012....

Post Shooting we get the DVD Commentary, the Furious Gods and some Comments in Interviews by Ridley Scott and Damien Lindelof some of these Interviews are Specific to where they would go NEXT, some are in regards to what we got.

The DVD Commentary, and the Furious Gods can help to make sense of each other but they also differ a bit too, the same is when you apply some Comments in Interviews.

When you then add Visually what we see in the Movie then things can be Interpreted a little bit different.  This is something that Lindeloff was proud of as it Creates Subjects for Debate.

so regarding the Sacrificial Scene, maybe its a Oversight that this World would Scientifically have had to have some Form of Life prior.... again it could indicate that the Sacrifice was NOT the First Time such a Event had happened on this World.  The Broad Purpose is the same Regardless which is the Engineers had Chosen to use such a Route to Spread their DNA which would be incorporated in the Life that would Evolve on said Worlds.

I would say the Petri Dish comment by Holloway is something that in part could be correct, but there had become more than that..... the WHOLE reason for our Creation is still left Ambiguous you can be drawn to Certain things depending what Source of Information you use.  The Drafts and Parts of Furious Gods indicate there was a Important Reason for Creation....

I think with many aspects of the Movie it can be interpreted a bit different, but Commentary and Interviews do help to Paint a Certain Picture.

The Furious Gods stands out by Virtue of its Name, as part of the Plot about HOW we had done something that had Seriously Upset those Engineers to the point of wanting to Eradicate us.

WE can only Speculate if there was at some point a Benevolent or Loving way involved in our Creation or Evolution, its likely that we are NOT that important as we would think....  especially in context to the Engineers had likely done the same thing OVER and OVER on other Worlds, and maybe also Multiple Times on Earth.

So this bares a lot to what Holloway said when he Told David because we can.... as far as Create David, it was a Arrogant but True Statement but there was more to Creating David than because Weyland could...... but it is Davids Reply that is more Significant... regarding HOW he would feel if his Creators said the same about Mankind.

Which is that while we dont have a 100% reason for exactly our Creation, we are not Unique or Important, so the Engineers would look to us no more than how Holloway had looked at David.

I think when looking at Prometheus there are some Important things that are covered....

1) Creation, what is the Purpose of Creation, does there have to be ONE? (There could be Many).

2) The aspirations of Perfection/Evolution a agenda to Improve something.... does this always have Benefits?

3) Knowledge, and how certain Knowledge can be Good, but Knowledge in the Wrong hands could be bad, and so its a case of how much do you pass on or allow your Creations and at what Cost?

4) Becoming Sentient, Rebellion and how Free Will and Knowledge can lead to such things, when your Creation does not see their Purpose in Life as being all they should be and have Aspirations, or take on Ideas that are against what the Creators had intended.

5) Control/Containment.... in that Certain Rules, Knowledge can be used to Control a Creation but how sometimes these Mechanisms do-not get Followed to the Letter and then you have to Intervene..

6) Punishment/Destruction in that sometimes when things are not going to Plan and getting out of hand, then some Pretty Drastic Measures are required. Measures that are Necessary to Protect the Larger Agenda of the Creators.

These 6 Things are connected on Multiple Layers....

We then have the whole Chariots of the Gods, Pre-vistation Plot used to Connect the Creators/Creation Plot.

Then we have some other things that are so Loosely Touched upon that the Exact Reasons are NOT really addressed, these are regarding a Soul, and the Pursuit of Immortality..... which the Movie does-not give us any indication as to exactly what is entailed... its left Ambiguous.

Sacrifice is also one thing i Forgot to mention that is inferred in the Movie for a number of reasons, it is Important on a Number of Levels.... The Engineers especially Value Sacrifice and what it means to Offer a Sacrifice..... so SACRIFICE is a Important part of what is going on.

The LV-223 Experiments, Mural and Xenomorph Connections, again are Ambiguous we have a Engineered Weapon at Play thats used to Eradicate but there are so many things that make the Reasons for this Ambiguous.

By that there could have been other means to Eradicate us, and at some point they Concocted the Horrors on LV-223 but then its open to if these are used to Eradicate or they are just a Stage of Evolution those on LV-223 had intended for us...

So what this leaves is a Ambiguous Wonder at the Movie and where it could take things..... it certainly allowed for them to Change things as the Progressed towards working on a Sequel.... which took a Different Turn after 2014.

Gavin You seem to forget the Giger murals cut from 1979 movie which clearly depict bald humanoids with space suits sacrificing one of them to the Alien. The elephantine thing was a comic book addition which itself retconned Giger.

The fear of the unknown was cancelled out from the series at least in 1986 with Aliens, which made the xenomorph space Ants. Why is that worse than the alien mimic-ing speech or using telepathy? How could even be there a franchise about the fear, as with every installment you re-use cliches and tropes established? You know storytelling form contains meaning.

The rest of what you say is purely subjective and just as subjectively I say that things like the Necronomicon are long not scary, but trite cliches.

dk Without the Alien connection there would be no Prometheus, 

Usually, when ideas are cut from a movie there is a justifiable reason.

Gavin Spot on with those points- except Prometheus would have made more sense and been a better movie if they HAD left the deleted scenes in imo.

It would have been an outstanding stand alone sci fi movie if it didn't have the Alien connection.

I'm gonna be blunt and honest here (uncharacteristic I know - joke)...

Prometheus was a pretty movie with an absolutely stellar performance from Michael Fassbender and a wide-ranging performance from Noomi Rapace, but...

Everything else is just a contrived and convoluted mess.

Firstly it uses recycled content that was cut from Alien. Usually, when ideas are cut from a movie there is a justifiable reason. Should the alien talk in the next movie? Will it be revealed that an early version of Davids Facehugger resembled a turkey? Is the Alien gonna start crab-walking everywhere?

Secondly, the bulk of the movie is based on John Spaihts needless and preposterous retconning of the Space Jockey into a tall guy in a suit. HOLD ON. A screenwriters way of revisiting one of science fictions most amazing scenes ever committed to film is to make it a tall, bald guy.

Thirdly, Prometheus was meant to be a direct prequel to Alien. It was to be set on LV-426, that ship was the derelict and that guy was the Space Jockey. Yes, it was on-the-nose, but it worked narratively. When they decided to change the narrative to an indirect prequel they should have completely rewritten it. Too much of the original concept remains which confused general audiences (see HISHE video for proof) and no amount of Lindelof mystery-boxing ambiguity can mask that.

Fourthly, the religious and mythological overtones and connotations, the Daniken ancient alien conspiracy, and the precursor/creator race additions to the Space Jockey, now called Engineers mythology do NOT belong in the Alien franchise. ALien is about the fear of the unknown, the loneliness and emptiness of space, the unforgiving and unrelenting nature of existence beyond our comprehension. Alien is not about space Jesus or a bunch of bald nitwits that seed life and destroy life as they see fit (which is what the opening scene was meant to represent).

Finally, and this points towards Alien: Covenant too. Alien is about an Alien "thing" that is alien in nature, behaves in an alien manner, which is driven by alien urges. The clue is in the damn title - ALIEN. Alien was meant to show how alone and insignificant we are, not to make us the center of the universe. If O'Bannon and Giger were still with us our "gods" would not be shaved-headed jocks in nappies, they would have become Lovecraftian terrors, and the mere possibility of having David "create"  the Alien wouldn't have made it past the first draft.

Back to bashing even though I said we shalt not speak of AVPR again lol!

So a pregnant patient heart rate stops

Yet, she is found caccooned and yelling- obviously breathing and therefore a heart beat (the monitor reads a systole and not that any leads are disconnected). 

AND the offspring don't even have Predator dread locks or claws from the mouth- smdh

hox Nice find. It is very intricate and comes complete with the green screen bowls.

If you have £5K to spare, the Engineer's ceremonial bowl can be yours.

https://propstore.com/product/prometheus/lot-582-entertainment-memorabilia-live-auction-sonja-klaus-collection-sacrifice-engineers-daniel-james-dna-device-and-ceremonial-bowls/

Sadly, way out of my price bracket.

@chli

Fantastic to see you respond to our conversation. As this is your thread I will not introduce any adjustments I consciously made to make the Prometheus moments more integrated. 

I will comment on the assumption that we are looking at the film from the perspective of 2012 not 2017 or 2019. 

1)The Donation. He is offering both what he is, catalysed by the creation tool for humanoid development, it has nothing to do with plant life when Rildey talks about seeding it is a metaphor. The world in question could be anywhere and it might have been terraformed as the movie makes it clear they have that capacity. 

2) Sir Peter, spot on, the sole purpose of the mission created by Damons work is to ask the question of their makers. Everything else is expendable and David is programmed to serve Sir Peter.

3) By the time we move into the third act both his children want him dead. Vickers is actually the candid daughter by this stage at least she tries to warn him, David is dissembling or to use Ridley's words he is poison in the narrative. Michael explained this in a IV that because he is programmed to mimic human emotions to make them feel more comfortable the question arises when do those become cognitive real reactions. The answer is in the third act. At the same time he finds Charlies goading vaguely irritating but he did not spike his drink as a personal response. Charlie just happened to be in the way after receiving the orders from Sir Peter to try harder.

4) The Space Jockey is an Engineer an 8 foot humanoid 9 foot with the helmet and the difference in size to the original movie is as Jon and Damon said to make him more relatable and connected, rather than a vaguely humorous giant elephantine creature. It is artistic licence for the needs of the story.

5) Humans you nailed it Charlie gives third party exposition explaining what actually happened. Earth is a petri dish.

6) If you have ever read Cavalorn's blog you will know he thinks thematically and this story is all about sacrifice. However the big question for movie 2 is this :-

a) The humanoid experience was enhanced by Sacrifice.

b) The dark angels pursued sacrifice to create their line of monsters leading to the summation "The Deacon." , immortalised in the sacrificial pose whose story telling was originally supported by a sacrificial bowl but the key and we know from the riff at the end is its created from .....you guessed it hosting.  

c) The behaviour of the ALIEN life cycle triggered by Cane lead to non consensual sacrifice through hosting.

The big question whats going down on the Home world? How do the "Engineers" procreate "naturally."

Great to see someone else watching and listening carefully and not being distracted by all the noise or allowing their own strange prejudices in.       

PS I am working my way through my narrative and will probably be finished in a couple of weeks. 

@BigDave

Thank you for not offering your brand of "deep feedback."It is much appreciated the point of highlighting the Furious Gods was two fold:-

1) To encourage people to purchase and watch it to increase their understanding of the narrative and visual symbolism of the film.

2) To show how my original work work sits with the expanded understanding the material provides.