Comments (Page 199)

@Chili

Just a quickie.

David offers two thoughts to Sir Peter.

He agrees with him there is nothing there for him "I know"

but then wishes him a safe journey.

That can have traction.  

@BigDave

As you know I fundamentally disagree with you about this issue. It would help me if you could provide examples where Jon contradicted Damon or Ridley on the meaning of the film in 2012. Remember this is a thread about Prometheus 2012. I will happily consider your examples.

I went into Furious Gods expecting a ton of vagueness based on the internet "experts" and found one example where a production designer thought Fifield and Holloway were on the way to blowing up like the head whereas others focused on the Mutagenic nature of the gloop as an upgrade.

I find clarity where it was intended.

I find ambiguity where it was intended.

Of the big three Jon,Damon and Ridley I can find no contradictions in the final decisions for the movie and its a point that Damon made in autumn 2012 he said the three of them knew what Ridley was trying to do. By then there was a body of people on the internet that said it was a muddle. It was not it was a mix of clarity where intended and ambiguity where it was intended.

That is entirely different from where next. 

However I study human behaviour and what I see are a lot of people being dishonest with themselves. One simple example. The Space Jockey is an Engineer end of and instead of saying I am out of here they start using issues of scale and whether its a suit (those issues if one is interested are acknowledged and the reasoning explained, they are planned artistic licence). Anyone watching the film and the money shot when the Gantry appears should have no doubt whats being communicated. Then read seven hours of material and its stark raving obvious that is what was intended.

There is a ton of ill informed half baked stuff about what was in the film never mind what might come next and thats why, because I admire all the team who made this film, I will stand my ground when people complain its not clear what the core thread of the story is which I gave in my earlier post.

Do we know the relationship between the Moon and the Homeworld NO! Do we know exactly what caused the out break on the Moon NO! Do we know the relationship between the Pebble Ship and the Juggernauts NO! All that would have come next. 

@Chili.

Great post. What you are doing is separating out the emotional content of the character from the rules of the environment. The narrative and the story comes from the former and it is hardly ever discussed in fandom, its nearly all about the rules.

The central rule of the story is someone is responsible for the creation of worlds and life. Its not benign its not an accident it has intent. The little tiny bit we knew was a freaky looking character was carrying around some really nasty stuff which thematically dealt with non consensual parasitical reproduction which was highly unsympathetic and could be received as punishment.

Carrying on with the rules for a moment by the end of Prometheus we know this stuff is produced on an industrial scale by our creators.

Now we move to the story.

Elizabeth is our proxy. What answers are we looking for :-

1) Do we have a soul and where do we go when we die (the little girl who has lost her mother).

2) Are we alone. On the whole she believes we are not the movie dialogue about faith and the deleted scene about Africa. 

3) Why did they make us and why did they want to destroy us. 

There are lots of ways you can find the answers for her. It won't happen now the trail as they say has gone cold.

Back to the rules.

There has been an argument (Prometheus) and it turns out the guys who made us are on the wrong side and not doing well. (The Moon).

So and this is the 100,000,000 Fox question that they avoided by saying everyone wants the monster in. If these guys have rebelled and stolen something what does the other side of the argument look like. Once you decide that then you can give Elizabeth her answers.

Back to story

Noomi wanted to find her answers and have trouble with them.

Michael thought David was on a search for meaning.

They have form Damon said it really began in the infirmary when he admitted he was interrogating her dreams and of course he is responsible for her becoming pregnant.

So make some rules decide on the dynamic of E & D and get going.

Your destination has to flesh out what an intelligent creation looks like and decide whether being created by dark angels has consequences. For inspiration we have Dr Frankenstein and Sir Peter Weyland.

I hope that contributes a little more to your questions. The one that will never get answered is however you frame God who made that. But there is plenty to get our teeth into before we get there.  

Predators from AvP couldn't take eggs from the pyramid because the pyramid was destroyed, and everything around too.

I agree with much of what is said here. There are some themes in this movie, sacrifice being one, but to me, Prometheus is really an existential journey: Is there a God? Is there a purpose? Are we alone in the universe?

These questions are raised by Shaw, clinging on to her Christian faith symbolized by the cross. These questions are answered negatively by David: “There is nothing”. But Shaw isn’t really a believer, is she? She is more of an agnostic, perhaps, searching for the answers?

We, the audience, are no closer to the answers, are we? Well, we know that we are created by the Engineers (there is extraterrestrial life) and that they are no benevolent gods at all. But how did the Engineers come into existence? Is there only evolution or is there something else behind it all?

I like the idea of a mobile queen. Never occurred to me. If AVPR could have its own reboot of sorts done well, it could be a good movie. It did a couple things right but they were fleeting and not nearly enough to carry the movie.

It would have made sense for the Predators to take eggs from the site in AVP before leaving since they were already in the neighborhood but there was nothing in the movie to indicate that they had. And how could they obtain the eggs without having the face huggers activate? It seems to follow nonetheless. It almost seems like a similar mystery to the A3 egg. Well, not really a mystery but bad writing.

According to the Strause Brothers (Colin & Greg) who wrote and directed AVPR, and whose company Hydraulx provided the movies visual effects claim that the PredAlien was a juvenile Queen AKA a Princess Xenomorph, that would have in time transformed into a full-on Queen.

DK you raise an interesting point about that scene. I think we should discuss the elephant in the room about the Predalien. I started a new thread as my response was too long for this thread. 

 http://www.alien-covenant.com/topic/49197

"Lemme simplify my point..."

I think thats a Hard Question...

I would say YES to ALIEN... but i think as far as what ALIEN had evolved into over the Franchise, then i would have rather had gone to WHO the Space Jockey are as opposed to more Queens and Bugs and Ripleys...

Just the Execution was FLAWED, they Toned it down too much with Prometheus.

The Thing that kept me Interesting in ALIEN was more so about HOW/WHERE and WHEN was that Xenomorph Created, and WHO are Space Jockey are.. that Mystery!

If the Movie was about a Cave on a Baron World that had Eggs that was Discovered as they Intercept a SOS from another Ship that had got there First (especially if this Ship was NOT a Alien Race)... 

And so we have a Cave, Eggs.... NO signs of Technology, Murals, Rituals... just a Alien Organism found in a Baron Cave...

Then i think ALIEN would have been a Decent B Movie Horror Flick with a COOL Monster... and Nothing more for me...

Yeah we could have go ALIENS still etc... but for me the STAND OUT Scene of the Franchise is still the Discovery of the Derelict, Exploring the Ship, the Pilot Room and then the Egg Cargo Hold.

Each time i saw the Space Jockey Scene i was in AWE!

That is what is ALIEN in my mind anyway, the Prequels had made it less so to a degree.

@Ignorantguy

Certainly i had not indicated the Movie would have been MADE without ALIEN, i was saying the Plot would have worked if it was NOT connected, but Certainly would such a Pitch of a Plot that was  NOT SET in the same Universe had got the Go Ahead?

Maybe or maybe NOT... but Certainly it would have been Unlikely to have got the Level of Budget for such a Project... this Investment INDEED came about as we was getting a Movie set within the ALIEN Universe.

If it was not then such a Movie would have been Much Less Likely to see the Day of Light, or had anywhere near the Budget.... more so if the Pitch was just Jon Spaights as he had NOT had anything Produced at this Point, why they went for a more Well Known Damien Lindeloff to Re-Write it.

So your Point is Very Valid, without Alien then Idea/Plot would have struggled to get off the Ground... or Certainly would NOT have been as BIG a Block Buster Investment.

@Michelle

I think some Elements are open to Interpretation, some Elements had enough shown to us, that when we consider the Commentary and Ridley Scott and Damien Lindeloffs Comments they draw us to a Certain Conclusions... some other Interviews do Muddy the Water a little, and things had Evolved from Inception to the Cutting Room Floor, but as far as Comments/Commentary regarding the Theatrical Cut then the Summary you make is what i conclude from the Movie too.

But still there are Elements that allow for Interpretation and Discussion and Opinion, some people do seem to Overlook the Cast in the Movie where some Dialog is Actually there to SPOON FEED us whats going on... well to Indicate things to us....

The Nuts and Bolts could be as Simple as...

*Ancient Superior Beings got Bored, and Decided to Sub-Create "idle hands are the devil's workshop"

*Decided maybe they can make some USE of this Creation and Teach us Stuff (but there is Ambiguity to this because it could be a Group of Engineers decided to do this, and it was not the Overall Plan for us).

*Engineers then began to Experiment with other stuff on LV-223 and became quite Fascinated with this, and Decided that Actually these Experiments and the DNA they have are something that they would go and UPGRADE their Creations with... what out of Boredom? because they found that the Pathogen Deacon DNA is something they see as being something NEW to try as they are Bored of our Creation?

Maybe but there is Elements of Ambiguity to that... its not CLEAR CUT and DRY.

So some things are Ambiguous in My Opinion that is, does that mean thats Correct? Nope! but RS had made further Indications about certain things that changes things.

A Example "sometimes to create one must first destroy"

This can be taken as those Engineers certainly at least on LV-223 had became much more Interested in what makes things like the Deacon Tick, than Evolved Apes like us, and so its a case of lets go and Evolve our Creations with this Deacon DNA/Traits because they feel this is a Enhancement, something Better, or they became bit Bored of Ape-Men.

On the other side of the Coin it could be that this STUFF is what they  had intended to go and WIPE the Slate Clean, that then Hundreds or Thousands of Years they can come back and START AGAIN...

Now my Interpretation on this is that the Last Statement is more True... or Was.... but that those Guys on LV-223 had became Fascinated with the Deacon and how it came to be and Decided to Factor this Beast as a Evolutionary Stage instead of WIPE the Slate.... the Question is that would this had been a Unautherised use of the Creation/Seeding and Destruction Tool... which is a FALLEN ACT?

Ideas about Certain things Change/Evolve in the Minds of those who are Giving us these Prequels, this is why some of Ridley Scotts latter comments after the DVD Release appear to differ a bit from what was on the DVD/Blu-Ray Extras.

@chli

I would just like to demonstrate how I make judgements because its clear yet again from this thread people can not establish more than "Its vague" which isn't helpful to you or anyone reading. If matters are still "it could mean anything" after 7 years it is unlikely they are going to have an epiphany.

Humans.

 1) The movie begins with an image of sacrifice with some purpose. The creature disintegrates and we see images of cells being attacked broken down and reformed. All the natural informational stimuli (colour, music, aesthetic) indicate the cells produced are an enhancement and a wonder.    

2) We cut to cave paintings with someone taller than humans pointing to a star system. The implication is there is a connection between these creatures in the paintings and the previous scene. 

3) Dial forward and Elizabeth discovers our DNA matches the inhabitants of the Moon and she tells us we come from them. There is no other narrative agenda nothing indicating anything different.

4) Charlie having sobered up reacts to the news they made us and said there you go there not gods they made us and earth is a goddamn petri dish. David has already said they are mortal after all. So a superior species deliberately created us. 

So we are now in lock down the inhabitants of the Moon did make us and through hours and hours of documentary there is no evidence to dispute it.   

5) We then discover they are involved in making monsters and the black glope produces outcomes which hint at what we saw in the first film. We see images of sacrifice in the Sanctuary which is a place of worship a point that Elizabeth lets the audience know.(Headroom).

6) We know by the end our makers are not very nice and they intended to come to Earth and destroy and replace us. The story evolves through the Hammerpedes, Fifield, Charlie and the Deacon to show us what they are trying to replace us with. Fifield was mid point to the deacon so as not to steel the coup at the end. (Production confirmed).

So they made us because they could and they want to replace us because they think they have learnt how to. There isn't one single narrative twist, production comment to suggest anything else and as Damon said Elizabeth is our proxy she is telling us what is going on. 

We were made by dark angels who had Promethean like stolen technology. The huge philosophical point is our relationship with our creators is not benign or an accident. We are as constructed in the mind of our creators as much as David was and can be upgraded.

Why did they want to destroy? Because they could and wanted to improve upon the design in their view. Why else would they destroy us? Why is there Davids signpost in order to create first you must destroy. 

How come they were destroyed at exactly the time Christ died? No idea.

Is the relationship with the Engineers Home world and the Moon consensual. Two possibilities :-

1. a) Yes and they are one group with an anthrax island and a seperate place to hang out. That doesn't make sense because the Moon had been unattended for 2,000 years there is no evidence of rebuild anyone coming to sort out the mess etc etc   
2. b) No the Moon is rebellion from the Home world, that makes sense and the Home world sees the place as quarantined.

So we now know the Space Jockey race made us and they made other nasty stuff besides and they intended to use the glope to change things which everyone and their dog on the production team said was essentially the liquid form of the Morph.

Who made them ? No Idea

What does God think of them ? No idea.  

I do not see dissembling in any of this a cigar is a cigar unless you are navel gazing or easily confused or both or have your own pet conspiracy theory and for the avoidance of doubt people don't have to like it.  

Gavin You don't have any point there as the comparison is not fair. Why do you compare a movie which generated a franchise which was in decline for years when the second one appeared.

And to answer your question I would rather take 2001 instead of either of them. Hack, today I would take Beyond the Black Rainbow over any of them.

Lemme simplify my point...

Desert island DVD, you can take either Alien or Prometheus, not both which do you take?

If we could poll that chances are most of us would choose Alien.

@BigDave I repeat myself, there would be no Prometheus without the Alien connection. What studio would spend 130 million on Sci-Fi horror without brand recognition or adapting an already established IP? And then again when Prometheus was launched wasn't it said to be in the same universe? The prequel route was clear taken only with Covenant because of fan reaction and corporate greed...

@Gavin I forgot to mention that your precious fear of the unknown was undermined in the first movie by Giller and Hill, who introduced the Corporate conspiracy in the script and who wanted to make the Alien a human weapon and the crew of the Nostromo test subjects. Was that not human-centric? In my book Ancient Aliens are far better than what Alex Jones spouts... 

@dk

Certainly.... i think IF the Plot was changed to NOT connect to ALIEN and so Aesthetic was toned down too, so it was a Stand Alone... Different Shape Ship, Different Space Suit to a degree.... NO Weyland Company.

As a Stand Alone i think we would have had Multiple Sequels by NOW that would have become Interesting.

A Prequel was always going to be some kind of Poisoned Chalice

Firstly i will apologize in Advance to Chli for this Next bit being a bit OFF TOPIC and also to Gavin in the hope you dont take this too Personal ;)

Ignorantguy had beat me to a Certain Point...

At the Point when HR Giger was brought on to work on ALIEN, the Pilot of the ALIEN ship, had been Conceived to be Humanoid/Bi-Pedal in Aesthetic.   His Concepts had depicted Bald Humanoids who Self Sacrifice to Procreate the Xenomorph and the Space Jockey was a Space Suit.  The Actual Prop ended up looking a little Different to his Concepts.

So when exploring the Space Jockey in a Prequel which they deemed as the More Important thing to expand upon, over a Beast that had been shown over and over.  Then Jon Spaights had decided that there are reasons you have to do something like he did...  You had to introduce a PLOT to HOW those Human Characters would END up arriving at the Location the Movie would take Place.

The other option would be by Pure Accident... or to have detected the same SIGNAL that the Nostromo was sent to Investigate...  So the Chariots of the Gods Plot worked as a way that would give a Reason WHY some Humans would end up on LV-426 (at that time).

The same Plot would also open the Door for Possible Communication and USE of their Technology. By and with Humans (and Created Androids).   The Alternative would be a ALIEN Race that had NO interaction with Mankind, who then Humans would have NO WAY to talk to or Vice Versa which would Limit any Potential Sequel.

Going for a 15ft Elephantine Organism/Race that has NO WAY to communicate with us, would just show us a Species that would just go POSTAL on us perhaps? (they could have came up with ways around this Telepathy for Instance).

They had a Dilemma of how do you represent the Space Jockey as the Skeleton of a Alien Race, especially if they decide the Snorkel is a Organic Trunk (which it did-not appear to be) so you Potentially could have had something that would look more Comical than the New Born, Actually the New Born would look like the Space Jockey if we attached a Separate Breathing Apparatus to the New Borns Nasal Area...

So they went for Humanoids... we have to Wonder how much Spaights really knows about the Franchise, it appears NOT too much!  Some things he overlooked...

Also it seems he was NOT AWARE of the HR Giger Concepts, that depicted Humanoids, well it seemed he never indicated them as a Influence in Furious Gods.

Regarding Alien Engineers etc.... it conflicts ALIEN, in a few ways.... if we accept it as a Direct Prequel, then the Signal is not the same, the Beacon comes from the Pyramids... it is likely this is to SHOW what also happened to the Space Jockey on another Part of LV-426 some Thousands of Years Prior.

I will AGREE that Prometheus had Toned down too much of the ALIEN DNA and lacked enough ALIEN Action....

I also agree the Chariots of the Gods Plot and Engineers are steering a bit away from what was ALIEN about the First Movie, especially more so with Alien Covenant.

something more Lovecraftian would have fitted more, but then its HOW do the Humans come to this Place?  It would again have to be via Accident, or detect the Space Jockey Warning Beacon.

The SCALE was a Problem.... but the Intentions were 15ft Engineers, then 12ft.... then at Production 10ft but ALAS what we ended up with was 7.5ft by Virtue of Ridley Scott preferring to NOT use much Special Effects and CGI.

Again Chli sorry for going OFF TOPIC ;)

And Gavin..... i do think something more ALIEN should be introduced as a Higher Layer of that Creation Cake! Something more ALIEN.

To the last two posts- Prometheus would have been a good stand alone movie unrelated to the Alien movie (which was originally touted as a direct Alien prequel). Ridley should have maybe just made Prometheus as its own franchise without the Alien aesthetic. 

If a movie needs extras on a DVD later after the theatrical run to fill in blanks, then that seems like an admission that audiences felt the movie was lacking and that translated to the box office bottom line. It's not that audiences want everything spoon fed, but most probably don't want to do bacheloriate level research prior to watching a new movie. Don't blame the audience for the cold shoulder. 

I think that with Prometheus we had a Evolving Concept, that Certainly had a Basis during the Progress of Production and Idea, that had then been Evolved a bit prior to Shooting, and then some Elements further changed Post Shooting but there is still a Base Structure that was Present up to and after 2012....

Post Shooting we get the DVD Commentary, the Furious Gods and some Comments in Interviews by Ridley Scott and Damien Lindelof some of these Interviews are Specific to where they would go NEXT, some are in regards to what we got.

The DVD Commentary, and the Furious Gods can help to make sense of each other but they also differ a bit too, the same is when you apply some Comments in Interviews.

When you then add Visually what we see in the Movie then things can be Interpreted a little bit different.  This is something that Lindeloff was proud of as it Creates Subjects for Debate.

so regarding the Sacrificial Scene, maybe its a Oversight that this World would Scientifically have had to have some Form of Life prior.... again it could indicate that the Sacrifice was NOT the First Time such a Event had happened on this World.  The Broad Purpose is the same Regardless which is the Engineers had Chosen to use such a Route to Spread their DNA which would be incorporated in the Life that would Evolve on said Worlds.

I would say the Petri Dish comment by Holloway is something that in part could be correct, but there had become more than that..... the WHOLE reason for our Creation is still left Ambiguous you can be drawn to Certain things depending what Source of Information you use.  The Drafts and Parts of Furious Gods indicate there was a Important Reason for Creation....

I think with many aspects of the Movie it can be interpreted a bit different, but Commentary and Interviews do help to Paint a Certain Picture.

The Furious Gods stands out by Virtue of its Name, as part of the Plot about HOW we had done something that had Seriously Upset those Engineers to the point of wanting to Eradicate us.

WE can only Speculate if there was at some point a Benevolent or Loving way involved in our Creation or Evolution, its likely that we are NOT that important as we would think....  especially in context to the Engineers had likely done the same thing OVER and OVER on other Worlds, and maybe also Multiple Times on Earth.

So this bares a lot to what Holloway said when he Told David because we can.... as far as Create David, it was a Arrogant but True Statement but there was more to Creating David than because Weyland could...... but it is Davids Reply that is more Significant... regarding HOW he would feel if his Creators said the same about Mankind.

Which is that while we dont have a 100% reason for exactly our Creation, we are not Unique or Important, so the Engineers would look to us no more than how Holloway had looked at David.

I think when looking at Prometheus there are some Important things that are covered....

1) Creation, what is the Purpose of Creation, does there have to be ONE? (There could be Many).

2) The aspirations of Perfection/Evolution a agenda to Improve something.... does this always have Benefits?

3) Knowledge, and how certain Knowledge can be Good, but Knowledge in the Wrong hands could be bad, and so its a case of how much do you pass on or allow your Creations and at what Cost?

4) Becoming Sentient, Rebellion and how Free Will and Knowledge can lead to such things, when your Creation does not see their Purpose in Life as being all they should be and have Aspirations, or take on Ideas that are against what the Creators had intended.

5) Control/Containment.... in that Certain Rules, Knowledge can be used to Control a Creation but how sometimes these Mechanisms do-not get Followed to the Letter and then you have to Intervene..

6) Punishment/Destruction in that sometimes when things are not going to Plan and getting out of hand, then some Pretty Drastic Measures are required. Measures that are Necessary to Protect the Larger Agenda of the Creators.

These 6 Things are connected on Multiple Layers....

We then have the whole Chariots of the Gods, Pre-vistation Plot used to Connect the Creators/Creation Plot.

Then we have some other things that are so Loosely Touched upon that the Exact Reasons are NOT really addressed, these are regarding a Soul, and the Pursuit of Immortality..... which the Movie does-not give us any indication as to exactly what is entailed... its left Ambiguous.

Sacrifice is also one thing i Forgot to mention that is inferred in the Movie for a number of reasons, it is Important on a Number of Levels.... The Engineers especially Value Sacrifice and what it means to Offer a Sacrifice..... so SACRIFICE is a Important part of what is going on.

The LV-223 Experiments, Mural and Xenomorph Connections, again are Ambiguous we have a Engineered Weapon at Play thats used to Eradicate but there are so many things that make the Reasons for this Ambiguous.

By that there could have been other means to Eradicate us, and at some point they Concocted the Horrors on LV-223 but then its open to if these are used to Eradicate or they are just a Stage of Evolution those on LV-223 had intended for us...

So what this leaves is a Ambiguous Wonder at the Movie and where it could take things..... it certainly allowed for them to Change things as the Progressed towards working on a Sequel.... which took a Different Turn after 2014.

Gavin You seem to forget the Giger murals cut from 1979 movie which clearly depict bald humanoids with space suits sacrificing one of them to the Alien. The elephantine thing was a comic book addition which itself retconned Giger.

The fear of the unknown was cancelled out from the series at least in 1986 with Aliens, which made the xenomorph space Ants. Why is that worse than the alien mimic-ing speech or using telepathy? How could even be there a franchise about the fear, as with every installment you re-use cliches and tropes established? You know storytelling form contains meaning.

The rest of what you say is purely subjective and just as subjectively I say that things like the Necronomicon are long not scary, but trite cliches.

dk Without the Alien connection there would be no Prometheus, 

Usually, when ideas are cut from a movie there is a justifiable reason.

Gavin Spot on with those points- except Prometheus would have made more sense and been a better movie if they HAD left the deleted scenes in imo.

It would have been an outstanding stand alone sci fi movie if it didn't have the Alien connection.

I'm gonna be blunt and honest here (uncharacteristic I know - joke)...

Prometheus was a pretty movie with an absolutely stellar performance from Michael Fassbender and a wide-ranging performance from Noomi Rapace, but...

Everything else is just a contrived and convoluted mess.

Firstly it uses recycled content that was cut from Alien. Usually, when ideas are cut from a movie there is a justifiable reason. Should the alien talk in the next movie? Will it be revealed that an early version of Davids Facehugger resembled a turkey? Is the Alien gonna start crab-walking everywhere?

Secondly, the bulk of the movie is based on John Spaihts needless and preposterous retconning of the Space Jockey into a tall guy in a suit. HOLD ON. A screenwriters way of revisiting one of science fictions most amazing scenes ever committed to film is to make it a tall, bald guy.

Thirdly, Prometheus was meant to be a direct prequel to Alien. It was to be set on LV-426, that ship was the derelict and that guy was the Space Jockey. Yes, it was on-the-nose, but it worked narratively. When they decided to change the narrative to an indirect prequel they should have completely rewritten it. Too much of the original concept remains which confused general audiences (see HISHE video for proof) and no amount of Lindelof mystery-boxing ambiguity can mask that.

Fourthly, the religious and mythological overtones and connotations, the Daniken ancient alien conspiracy, and the precursor/creator race additions to the Space Jockey, now called Engineers mythology do NOT belong in the Alien franchise. ALien is about the fear of the unknown, the loneliness and emptiness of space, the unforgiving and unrelenting nature of existence beyond our comprehension. Alien is not about space Jesus or a bunch of bald nitwits that seed life and destroy life as they see fit (which is what the opening scene was meant to represent).

Finally, and this points towards Alien: Covenant too. Alien is about an Alien "thing" that is alien in nature, behaves in an alien manner, which is driven by alien urges. The clue is in the damn title - ALIEN. Alien was meant to show how alone and insignificant we are, not to make us the center of the universe. If O'Bannon and Giger were still with us our "gods" would not be shaved-headed jocks in nappies, they would have become Lovecraftian terrors, and the mere possibility of having David "create"  the Alien wouldn't have made it past the first draft.

Back to bashing even though I said we shalt not speak of AVPR again lol!

So a pregnant patient heart rate stops

Yet, she is found caccooned and yelling- obviously breathing and therefore a heart beat (the monitor reads a systole and not that any leads are disconnected). 

AND the offspring don't even have Predator dread locks or claws from the mouth- smdh

hox Nice find. It is very intricate and comes complete with the green screen bowls.

If you have £5K to spare, the Engineer's ceremonial bowl can be yours.

https://propstore.com/product/prometheus/lot-582-entertainment-memorabilia-live-auction-sonja-klaus-collection-sacrifice-engineers-daniel-james-dna-device-and-ceremonial-bowls/

Sadly, way out of my price bracket.

@chli

Fantastic to see you respond to our conversation. As this is your thread I will not introduce any adjustments I consciously made to make the Prometheus moments more integrated. 

I will comment on the assumption that we are looking at the film from the perspective of 2012 not 2017 or 2019. 

1)The Donation. He is offering both what he is, catalysed by the creation tool for humanoid development, it has nothing to do with plant life when Rildey talks about seeding it is a metaphor. The world in question could be anywhere and it might have been terraformed as the movie makes it clear they have that capacity. 

2) Sir Peter, spot on, the sole purpose of the mission created by Damons work is to ask the question of their makers. Everything else is expendable and David is programmed to serve Sir Peter.

3) By the time we move into the third act both his children want him dead. Vickers is actually the candid daughter by this stage at least she tries to warn him, David is dissembling or to use Ridley's words he is poison in the narrative. Michael explained this in a IV that because he is programmed to mimic human emotions to make them feel more comfortable the question arises when do those become cognitive real reactions. The answer is in the third act. At the same time he finds Charlies goading vaguely irritating but he did not spike his drink as a personal response. Charlie just happened to be in the way after receiving the orders from Sir Peter to try harder.

4) The Space Jockey is an Engineer an 8 foot humanoid 9 foot with the helmet and the difference in size to the original movie is as Jon and Damon said to make him more relatable and connected, rather than a vaguely humorous giant elephantine creature. It is artistic licence for the needs of the story.

5) Humans you nailed it Charlie gives third party exposition explaining what actually happened. Earth is a petri dish.

6) If you have ever read Cavalorn's blog you will know he thinks thematically and this story is all about sacrifice. However the big question for movie 2 is this :-

a) The humanoid experience was enhanced by Sacrifice.

b) The dark angels pursued sacrifice to create their line of monsters leading to the summation "The Deacon." , immortalised in the sacrificial pose whose story telling was originally supported by a sacrificial bowl but the key and we know from the riff at the end is its created from .....you guessed it hosting.  

c) The behaviour of the ALIEN life cycle triggered by Cane lead to non consensual sacrifice through hosting.

The big question whats going down on the Home world? How do the "Engineers" procreate "naturally."

Great to see someone else watching and listening carefully and not being distracted by all the noise or allowing their own strange prejudices in.       

PS I am working my way through my narrative and will probably be finished in a couple of weeks. 

@BigDave

Thank you for not offering your brand of "deep feedback."It is much appreciated the point of highlighting the Furious Gods was two fold:-

1) To encourage people to purchase and watch it to increase their understanding of the narrative and visual symbolism of the film.

2) To show how my original work work sits with the expanded understanding the material provides. 

BigDave

Having listened to their comments, my interpretation is that the intention was to show us what happened on Earth millions of years ago (but that this could also have happened elsewhere). It also makes sense that in the beginning we see the sacrificial Engineer seeding Earth with his DNA, and later on Shaw finds a DNA match between Engineers and humans.

Furthermore, even if we see green areas here and there, they talk about starting life itself (although Scott is a bit inconsistent).

David is, of course. more complex. Is he following orders or has he become sentient and has a free will?

BioDegradable

Most of the things I put forth has been discussed and disputed here. That’s why I went back and listened to what the creators of the movie had to say, that is their intentions.

I will try to say something positive about AVPR. The eggs being forced down the woman's throat was pretty gruesome and well done.

I watched The Predator a couple nights ago and think it was better than AVPR by a large margin- but not really worth watching again.

AvP:R is a bad movie, but it has two redeeming factors IMO...

#1 - Wolf is the second best Predator ever after the one in the 1987 original, and

#2 - It is better than The Predator.

I try to find something redeeming in AVPR, but there just isn't much to like about it. A failure of poor story-telling. Nothing emotionally resonate in the film at all.

It was the first Alien film where a child was directly chestburst and did you feel for him. Nope. It resonated less so than even Burke or one of the unnamed bald, old, convicts running around in the lead works of Fury.   

BD i've tried several times to sit through it too. I think after about 6 attempts (including the first cinema viewing) Ive made it through to end once. Its just boring, weak, and lackluster on every level  

Haven't the Engineers been verified as human by a DNA test? Therefore they can't be immortal. Or am I missing something?

Now David has a lot of bio-material at his disposal. He has the mutagen. He already created perfection in one form. Why not create some diversity, enhance it a bit? After all he should be for all the different life forms - he himself is this representative of alternative life form. He is also a good amount smarter than all his fore-bearers.

But there is no controversy in these observations though nor any news are there? And if so is it just "A man watches Prometheus"?

The other post by BigDave spurred another throwaway fantasy. I am not sure it is all that new and original, but:

what if the two sects of engineers are oppositely dualistic. One sect (living on Planet 4) are these beings cultivating and seeding life, believing in all the stereotypical good things,

while the other sect - couldn't be more different: they believe in sacrifice but their idol is this monster-beast that is depicted on the mural (ultimately Xenomorph, whom David evolved) and their shtick is to sacrifice all the life seeded by the other sect on planetary scale in the name of science and progress. They enhanced themselves. They look different. They love their goo(which might have been appropriated and adapted for a different purpose). Sacrifice a planet with its inhabitants, whole civilizations even - no problem for them. So in the end you have the two: a religious tradition VS the science/engineering/progress. A bit like in the old times : church vs science.

Now, David who is, no doubt a pinnacle of scientific research, completely unexpected by the engineers, probably doesn't have high opinion of one of the sects. He took all the best from both of the sects though - the goo from one faction and the subjects to conduct his experiments from the other. The end result is another pinnacle - Xenomorph, his success.

Weyland was a pioneer, indeed a god of sorts, in a way similar to engineers - he created David from scratch, a form of life that engineers couldn't have foreseen. He miscalculated that his achievement would be appreciated so much by his makers that he will be given immortality. Why? Because he made David practically immortal, and if he, Weyland made such a thing, surely his creators have such powers - and he hoped to be granted this gift, because he was the first of human civilization who has reached this goal. Unlucky Weyland got to a wrong sect. He should have gone to Planet 4. Perhaps they would have appreciated his efforts a bit more.

This movie has aged remarkably well in the face of the fourth Predator movie. In comparison, it's really not that bad.

I think it goes deeper than that while also remains Ambiguous, there have been Various Comments and extras that seem to Change Conclusions a little. Also the idea has changed/evolved from Spaights Ideas (Alien Engineers) to the Shooting of Prometheus, to the Cutting Floor and Changes..

So i would like to Elaborate on a few things ;)

The Opening Scene

This could have been Anywhere, it was to show us HOW the Engineers chose to Seed Life, it was indicated they would then come back and Further Evolve Life over Time... But indeed it shows us that this Process had been Carried out on Earth too, the Sacrificial Scene already had Plant Life and likely Basic Life so this was the Catalyst that allowed for Complex Cell Evolution (but a similar Sacrifice could have taken on a Baron World Many Millions of years prior).

Sir Peter Weyland

It seems that he has made many Advances in Medicine but he has STILL not been able to discover the KEY to Immortality or Greatly Extended Life, he is Dying and so he sees the Findings of Dr Shaw as a Last Ditch Effort to meet our Makers in the HOPE they can Grant Him more Life..... he feels he Deserves as such!

Miss Vickers

Certainly has little Interest in this Venture, she thinks its Pointless, she would rather be at HOME and preparing for the Aftermath of the Inevitable "a king has his reign" and this Queen would rather be Home preparing to Sit on the Weyland Throne!

Maybe she picked NOT the best Bunch Employees so that she can hopefully get this over and done with and BACK HOME!

David

Is more Complex to go into detail, he seems to be aware he is more Superior, he also seems to aspire to be more Human and treated as such... we see a Pinocchio kind of outlook to him... he has a Childlike Wonder at certain things, he is kind of a Boy at Heart, a Boy who is Molded by his Environment and Treatment he has a Curiosity about him and what makes Weyland think he is a God.... he is not Fond of Humans, but then with Dr Shaw he seems to be Impressed by her Resolve, he was following Orders, but desired to be Free and Once he is... well thats where its AMBIGIOUS what he would want to do NEXT.

The Space Jockey

Certainly the aim was he was a Engineer, Scale got Changed, but there was enough to show the Events of LV-223 and LV-426 are Connected.  There is still that aspect the Space Jockey had performed a Benevolent Act.... but Benevolent for WHO.. likely his own KIND. 

Ridley Scott indicating the Ship was Quarantined on LV-426 as the Space Jockey knew he was infected, and this Event happened either a Few Hundred Years after or Prior to the Main Outbreak 2000 years ago.

Humans

Further Indications are they had Created such Life in other Places, and at some point we were Visited and Taught things by the Engineers, until we became Sentient and Rebellious and seen as a Threat. And so Potential was seen in us but then also Potential Threat.

The Monster

The Mural and Frescos seem to indicate the Engineers realize that Sacrifice was needed for these Monsters, and seems they had attempted to Engineer different versions in the Pursuit of some kind of Perfection they had Admired...

The route i would have gone is Option 7

I actually posted this idea a Few Years ago.... which is a Parrellel Plot to Alien Resurrection...

The Failed Ripley 7 Queen and Sample of Ripley 8 Blood are sent to another Facility by USM that i was thinking was on a Moon in our Solar System or maybe a Space Station.

Where they would see the Queen Survive but it is a Hybrid, it is like a Cross Between a Queen and the New Born... as it has more Human DNA....   this Queen Produces Live Births like the New Born, only it Produces this Quickly, maybe at a Rate of every 8 hours or 12.... or maybe Quicker..

These Hybrids i envisioned to look more like the Neomorphs (before Alien Covenant was even a idea) basically i intended to merge some of the Concepts for Alien 3, with some of those from Prometheus to give us a Hybrid....

These would Procreate Similar to the Pred-Alien, they basically could Implant Embryo's, these Produce another ALIEN Form (Quite Quickly), that i was thinking would either be more Human or more Alien than the Organism that Implanted the Embryo's (thinking more ALIEN)

The USM Facility would also use Ripley 8 DNA to Create Humanoid Super Soldiers (we dont need Miss Weavers, or even Females) i thought these beings would appear Sex-Less and Bald, slight Elongated Heads and would look similar to the Engineers from Prometheus....  only slightly though...

So we see a Hybrid Queen, a Hybrid Off-Spring that can Procreate by having other Hybrids so we have 3 KINDS of ALIENS... i was also going to show that the Queen Birthed Hybrids could MORPH a Female Human into a Cocoon, and at the END we see a 4-5ft Queen Hybrid Birth from this....

We also have Engineered Super-Humans... so it will have Human Military but also have these Super Beings too... some of these Survive...

so we could go with a Sequel... that would cover ONCE again a Hybrid Queen (could be a bit different) and or the Hubris of Creating Super Humans.... like Ripley 8 was... which ever or both and what the IMPACT for Mankind would be?

I was working on the Title to the First of these as being either ALIEN: Vendetta or ALIEN: Vindication or similar, something that begins with V that would have some bearing to the PLOT or HUBRIS.

So i was looking at some of Carlos Huantes Prometheus Concept works and Jordu Schell's Alien Resurrection ones for Inspiration... and looking at Amalgamation of these ideas.

@MonsterZero

1b) could be a Option by Virtue of how USM could Clone Ripley to obtain a Xenomorph, so as long as some Xenomorph DNA can be obtained from the Wreckage of the Auriga then WHY cant they not obtain it again.... or also could something had Survived?

5) Is something more open... we dont even need to Contradict the Prequels or go to LV-223...  IF the Engineers had used the Pathogen on a World before things went to POT! or After...   then indeed we could introduce something....  If Planet 4 had NO Engineers, NO City, it was a Place that David Visited and Accidentally deployed the Cargo, or Crashed and some Urns Leaked into the Mountain Stream, then those Neomorph Spores would have STILL HAPPENED.... how long would those Spores remain?  Could they Evolve?

So something similar could become of a World the Engineers had attempted to WIPE/CLEAN before.. how long does it take to CLEAR? if its say 500 Years, and you Wonder to this World say 300 years then there is gonna be some Nasty Stuff knocking around... 

We could even wonder if some Organisms had Evolved and NOT died and so YES thats a Option...  Another is if Eggs had been deployed by Engineers in the Past, what becomes of a World that has had those Deployed?

@Chli

Indeed Option 2 had been covered with Alien Isolation, the Derelict Damage as seen in ALIENS does-not look Natural to me, but i think this is a Fitting Story to explore with Amanda Ripley in context to a Continuation via the Game/Novel Medium..... surely she would want to Destroy the Derelict so the Organisms can-not be obtained?

Option 3 is something Interesting, its a Area i think Blomkamps Alien 5 could WORK... provided they replace the Protagonist (Ripley is DEAD) then i think there is Potential....  Are the Eggs ok?  Do they Produce Mutations?

Surely they would Experiment on Mutants to try and Extact a more Pure Strain of the DNA to then Re-Make the Xenomorph?  

WHY not if this could be done from Ripleys DNA! so working with Radioactive, Damaged Eggs would be Easier surely?

So YES that works too ;)

I watched it for the 4th Time Last Night, well 3rd Proper Time and i just Considered it as a Stand Alone..... by that i imagined if i had never seen ANY of the ALIEN or PREDATOR Movies.

Then it was not so BAD.... it was like so many those Sy-Fy Channel Action/Horror Flicks with some COOL ideas for MONSTER/ALIENS

The Alien Procreation was interesting, but the Adults just mindless Killing Machines, that Died quite Easy... so like Camerons Bug Hunt...

The Pred-Alien seemed to be better as it was more Tougher, but the Interesting thing was the PREDATOR and its Technology and Weapons...

The Rest of the Movie was MEH!

So then you saw the Potential in HOW they could explore those Aliens and Predator in Future.....

NOW if you considered AVP prior, then you would think that Actually this sequel is a LET-DOWN the Predator was Good, the Ending a Bit Lame, the Pred-Alien had potential but the Xenomorphs just not as Good as the First AVP!

IF you Consider the WHOLE of the Franchises, then you would see that AVPR was just a Disappointing way to use the Alien and Predator....

The Final 3rd of the Movie was not Good, and the Human Characters and scenes were MEH! some worked, some Scenes just never seemed to belong to a ALIEN or PREDATOR Franchise...

I will say the EFFECTS are not so bad.... not as Good as some others in the Franchise.... the Biggest Problem was close ups of the FULL Xenomorph, where it just has the MAN IN A SUIT look...

Why in ALIEN a lot was not shown of it, and also in Alien Covenant we had CGI!

We have this Problem with some Close Ups from ALIENS and also in ALIEN 3 where the Man in the Suit Alien looks different to the Puppet/CGI Version.

AVPR is a movie i would only Re-Watch now for some of the Action/Death Scenes... as the rest is well not worth seeing again..

I think there are some Elements of the Starbeast Story that has yet to be fully used in any of the Franchise Movies, Prometheus borrowed some Elements of it...........

The Franchise had seemed to indicate and Ridley Scott, that our Xenomorph was just a Engineered Bio-Weapon, nothing more and nothing less.....

So we have some fans who felt the Xenomorph in ALIEN was more than the Animalistic Beast that the Rest of the Franchise seemed to indicate.....

I think its past the Point to show the Xenomorph from ALIEN as being Greatly Different to the rest of the Franchise and that INTRODUCING something else, to have some of the Ideas about a more Intelligent, Self-Aware Alien could be explored by using the UNUSED ideas from STARBEAST.

So we could Speculate the Engineers had encountered the Remnants of a Alien Species Civilization or Birthing Place, and they then took the Spore Cycle of this Alien Species as the Foundation to their Experiments that became the Black Goo.

I think if we ever go that route, then WHY NOT have something that is Different and so is not a COPY of the Xenomorph, not in the sense of being too close to it.... and i think O'Bannon's Starbeast Concept is something to explore.

I think the time between Alien and Aliens has been covered in novels and games. A continuation of Alien: Covenant does not look good, at least not if the intention is to lead up to the Space Jockey and the Derelict (and its cargo). Perhaps it’s best to leave it where it is (still a bit ambiguous concerning the origin of the xenomorph)?

I opt for nr 3. It doesn’t really matter how long after the explosion of the atmosphere processor since it seems that the eggs can lie dormant forever . . .

Well, Predalien is pretty interesting.