New Replies (Page 199)
"The reason might simply be curiosity?"
Certainly and that is what i was saying, "They had achieved so much.... and thought maybe... OK.. so whats NEXT?"
So it was a Curiosity, Science is based a lot on such, we Ponder...... what is this?, what if we do that?, what is there?
Curiosity is a Driving Force for sure...
With the Engineers they are so Advanced, we have to assume their Genetical Engineer Knowledge and Tools are so Advanced.... that they can take Curiosity to other Levels.
For Example... its likely we have Tried and Pondered with Curiosity if we can Inter-Bread or Genetically Cross Breed Species..... Can you MIX a Cat with a Dog? I am sure this has been a Question and Attempted before.. to NO Success but the Curiosity would have been there...
But what if in Future then we Advance our Science were we Discover a Way to Create Such a Hybrid... then if we allow our Curiosity to override our Moral Compass, then it would be a case of.... OK so what else can we now try and Cross-Breed.....
The Engineers who view themselves as Superior, maybe Gods would NOT have any such Moral Compass... and thats when indeed Curiosity could KILL the Cat!
So Curiosity, a sense of pushing Boundaries to what they could Create as a sign of Testing their Achievements and also perhaps being a bit Bored with what they are/have are Good reasons to go about and Create Something Else.
This is maybe similar to what Promotes David to do what he had done. (Alien Covenant) to a degree.
@Michelle
I think there has been a little Misunderstanding regarding the Point i was trying to raise which can get clouded in the amount i write... so i will try and make a Nutshell Version.
Lindeloff seems to be indicating the Sacrificial Scene was likely on Earth and that this EVENT is what started LIFE... indicating the World Before was Life-Less...
The Movie was showing this World would have HAD to have signs of Life, but then Lindeloffs Comment can be taken as GOSPEL if certainly some take the Notion the World is FLAT!
What i am saying is that we can look at his Comment and look at the Opening Scene and it appears this World would have had to Already have some Basic Form of Life.... so my point was in Regards to Lindeloffs Comment... and how the Movie is Slightly Contradicting if you look at it from WHAT state the World was in prior.. this is a Oversight maybe... or indeed it does not Effect Really the whole POINT of the Scene.
The Evolution i talk about is in Spaights Draft the Sacrificial Scene was to show this Event caused the Engineers DNA to be Merged with already Existing Life (Primordial Humanoid).. Then i was also looking at Ridley Scotts comments which suggest the Engineers have done this over and over on Worlds....
so all i was saying was that (Considering all and NOT just Lindeloff) the Sacrificial Scene was to show the Engineers Sacrifice was a Catalyst to Evolve Life to become Complex and so without that Sacrifice then there would likely be NO LIFE as we know it. (it was not to dispute or suggest others on here had NOT understand that was the point of the Scene)
In another Interview i think i recall Lindeloff suggesting a Process of Evolution but i cant quite recall when/where this was so i could be MISTAKEN...
I was pointing out that REGARDLESS... in what way or Version we look at, the Indication remains the SAME.... the Engineers use the Sacrificial Rituals to lead to a World to have LIFE as we know it.....
It is likely that World had Basic Life before that Scene, but we cant rule out of a similar EVENT had happened that provided the Basic Life.... Ridley Scott had proposed if the Engineers are the Forerunners of Mankind, then what makes it Possible for Worlds to Support Life in the First Place... where is the Big Guy.
So what this is saying is that Worlds get Terra-formed, they then have Water, and Basic Life which could be a Created Event.. then these Worlds are RIPE for the Donation of a Engineers DNA, and we Cant rule out if this Process is done over and over.
So all i am saying is we have to Consider what the Movie Shows, and what Ridley Scott, Lindeloff and Spaights say about the Scene as a WHOLE (but in Context to the Final Cut) and to NOT just take One Persons Word for it....
So Regardless what the Scene shows is how you are saying, and thats EXACTLY how i see it too... i was only merely adding that the Scene Visually did-not look like this World was LIFE-LESS and thats all i was saying in that Regards....
I was not intending for us to Consider other Deleted Scenes, which give us different reasons for Creation, such as Jon Spaights Alien 01 The Master Narrative to Deleted Dialog between the Elder Engineer and Sacrificial Engineer....
These are Deleted or Changed and so SHOULD NOT be considered as what is happening... Things Change.... i mean in 2012 there was not the Thought that David Created the Xenomorph, but that seems to be the Case Now... so then certain stuff we have to Throw Out and Not Considered....
I had understood the Reason for the Deletion of some Scenes are Pacing, for a Theatrical Cut the Company (FOX) would prefer something to be more to 2 Hours and so some things get CUT.
Ridley Scott had indicated the Elders Scene would have given a bit too much away, and so the removal of the Scene Creates a Sense of Mystery...... he also DID-NOT want to meet GOD in the First Movie as you pointed out....
Lindeloff just gives the Explanation about having the Engineers Talk would take away some Mystery and it would be more Mysterious if we dont get to see them Talk, as well they would not be Interested in Talking to us seems his insight into it....
I was not trying to cover any such Deleted Scenes... there are Other reasons some Scenes get CUT! For example by Re-Shooting the Dr Shaw vs Engineer Scene, after Shooting the Scripted Version, means we see our Engineer Enter the Ship with Burns.. so they would then have had to Deleted Scenes prior from the point of the Engineer leaving the Juggernaut because it would contradict what the Shot that they decided to have would have shown (Face Burn).
I think a lot of times i write too much and people can get lost in what i am writing and i struggle to keep things in a NUTSHELL
So i think often things are overlooked or misunderstood and i maybe end up Flooding the Site...
so i may Consider taking a Break from such Places until we get any News of any other Movie... as i Understand peoples Posts can get LOST among the Masses of Posts i make.... i just have a Great Interest into the Prequels and what Potential they had prior to 2015
so those last few Paragraphs are NOT Relevant to what i was pointing out... which was that INDEED... the Sacrificial Scene was to show that the Engineers are involved in the Creation and Evolution of Life on Worlds.
This requires a Sacrifice with the Sacrificial Mutagen to Spread their DNA... and so really its a case of NO SUCH EVENT... and its indicated that Worlds, well our World would NOT have Life as we know it.
For me this post "Sep-16-2019 5:09 PM" gets the numb of my frustration.
We are not discussing the evolution of a scene we are discussing what the scene actually used means.
The opening scene is intent on sending out one message. Evolution of the humanoid experience involved planned intervention through a ritual of sacrifice.
The attack and fragmentation on existing cells which reform in a much more graceful and more sophisticated way is a clear sign of upgrade.
I am not at home this week so I cannot replay the Scott or Lindelof/Spaiht's commentary, I recall Ridley saying it might be earth so it is about intervention in humankind's development. I am well aware of the journey to this final sequence but that is not important in describing whether Prometheus had a firm grip of what it is trying to say. By talking about all the various evolutionary elements merely clouds the issue here, which is the film vague? It is not in this scene, what lies behind it is for later but what it communicates is clear.
Pietro Scalia offers his insights as to why the 8 Engineers are left out, for a long time they were in the cut, but they wanted to retain mystery and meet God in the second film.
Thats important in judging the reasoning for the cut was it because they wanted to avoid showing the quasi sacramental nature of the donation? There is no evidence to support that notion. Indeed none of the cuts made were excluded for reasons of content but pace, with the exception of the dialogue about the Engineers coming from Paradise. Pietro's Scalia offered his view is the idea was not carried through, Paradise could mean earth but in general the connection was not thought through. In understanding where they go next that might be important but I am unconvinced by Pietro's argument, the dialogue offered from the woken Engineer was cut and that is why you could not refer to it. But in the end going to meet God is important, whether you call it Paradise or not.
I promise to listen to the two commentaries next week and check if there are ambiguities across the three contributors.
@chili
When a micro biologist puts something in a petri dish he is curious to see what the outcome is. It's a form of experiment to see what you can grow. So curiosity is part of the reason you put something in a Petri Dish. The two ideas are not mutually exclusive.
David applies the same logic with his bottle of bubbles.
"David turned the ampule on its length and the black cloudy substance lurking at the top of the ampule filtered down and merged with the Green Liquid. David snapped the end off the ampule and placed his right index finger on the opening he had created. He looked intently into the black droplet on the end of his finger. He had opened the lid of Pandora’s Pithos.
To him though it was a simply a moment of curiosity and he relied on his alter ego and Dryden’s words for the narrative.
“Big Things Have Small Beginnings.”
He replaced the Cylinder and ........................
David knew the origins of the proverb, ‘Curiosity kills the cat.’ and its associations with one of those plays of Shakespeare kept in the Life Boat. However what had just happened was not “Much a Do About Nothing” it was quite the opposite it was about everything, and it re opened the way to Pandemonium."
Chapter 6 Connections.
Your use of the phrase amused me.
The reason for Engineers (as Mr Weyland) to move forward (knowledge) doesn’t have to be “The Petri Dish Argument”. The reason could be curiosity. Explorers have mapped down Earth and what's beneath it (the sea) and to some extent what’s above it (space). The reason might simply be curiosity? But, “curiosity killed the cat” . . .
BD- thanks. So that scene suggests (I have no idea about any novels or comics) that the Predators had been doing this on other worlds and that the face huggers and xenos were not exclusive to earth.
I tried to re watch AVPR but was quickly reminded on why I hate on it. That said, this could become a good pop corn series or at least a streaming movie. With some decent writing and bringing back Alexa, it could make a decent one off- and with a movie we can actually see without NVGs lol!
Having gone through the Commentary little bit again, what we have is the (mainly Lindeloff) referring to what the Sacrificial Scene was, because it had Evolved a bit from Concept, to Drafts, to Shooting to the Cutting Room to then Lindeloffs essential some what of a Lazy Get out Card approach... to certain Scenes as its FAR Easier than give any kind of Explanation. its always Nice to see Spaights and Ridley Scott always try and give us a bit more though..
So if we take Lindeloff as the Final Say on the Matter, then it implies the Sacrificial Scene was the START of Life as we know it... its a case of IF we take his word as the Word of YHWH in Biblical Accounts.
So what i am saying is there is Room to Elaborate on this, than to Purely Accept him as the Final Say.
The Sacrificial Scene had Evolved from Concept to End Product after the Cutting Room but it still remained pretty much the Same.... The Engineers perform such a Ritual to Seed DNA that then Forms a Massive Role in the Creation/Evolution of Life.
As stated by Spaights in the Commentary, his Sacrificial Scene was showing the Sacrifice Resulted in the Engineers DNA, being Infused with a Primitive Female to Create a Hybrid... the Sacrificial Scene thus acted as a Evolutionary Process.
12'000 Years BC this took place, but its indicated in Spaights work that Further Signs of our Genetic Evolution happened every 1100 Years. So in Spaights work we have been Genetically Engineered about 12 Times since his Sacrificial Scene.
Ridley Scott had indicated after Prometheus that the Engineers would come back over Periods of Time to Genetically Evolve us.
If we consider Lindeloffs work...
His Sacrificial Scene we arrive at a World that has Plant Life, a World that is Primed and Ready for the Donation of Genetic Material. The Scene goes on to suggest the Engineers Body that becomes Ashes, some of this Enters the Water and then it shows us a Fast Forwards... to something coming out of the Water...
A Hand, Fingers, he indicates its hard to tell if its Human or Salamander....
The Exposition here is that the Sacrificial Scene certainly plays into the role of Evolution on a World... on Earth... if we ASSUME this Sacrificial Scene was the FIRST signs of Life, so that from that Scene it Directly leads to a Life-Form that comes from the Water.... well how UNLIKELY is this?
Not Unlikely if there is a Missing Time-Line... so the Engineers Sacrifice Eventually leads to this...
Concept work and Story Boards Elaborate more on this Scene, showing us a Flash Forwards through Evolution, and so indicating that without the ENGINEERS SACRIFICE there would have been NO LIFE as we know it....
If we look at Prometheus then the World is NOT a Baron Place, we are not seeing a World that has NO LIFE.... and i think we can come to Milburns comment on the Deleted Scene (Our First Alien) about the Discovery of that Worm, where he says that Mankind has NOT yet discovered such Life on other Worlds beyond Microscopic and Bacterial...
so i think when we look at this as a whole.... it is likely the Engineers Sacrifice is what acts as the Catalyst to Spark the Evolution of Basic Life to more Complex.... so INDEED without the Sacrificial Rituals then such Worlds would NOT have Life thats Complex and thus as far as on Earth.... NO SACRIFICIAL SCENE and that means NO LIFE as we know it....
Lindeloff on the Commentary just seems like he is putting out Half Baked as Easy Explanations.... so he implies the Sacrificial Scene was HOW Life Began.. PEROID..
Which unless you look at that with Biblical Reading Tinted Glasses, we should know that for the World in Prometheus to look how it does, then Basic Life would have already had to have been on this Place...
which his Earlier Drafts seem to indicate, it just seemed he was not interested in giving any kind of Detail (as usual)....
However i think i recall a Interview where he mentions the Sacrificial Scene being what leads to Evolution of Life, i would have to try and dig that out....
What i am saying is not to Dish Dirt.... but that in that Moment on the Commentary he maybe Omitted to be as Specific on that Occasion...
I think Regardless.... the Overall Indication is that the Sacrificial Rituals are they way the Engineers would use their DNA/Genetic Material so that LIFE can either Form or Evolve due to this Event (Pathogen)
If we consider Spaights concepts, and Ridley Scotts comments he has made prior to 2013 then it seems the Engineers have performed this Sacrifice on other Worlds and even Over and Over on the same Worlds.... so we could Speculate that our Creation maybe has not come from ONE such Ritual but many of the Course of the Many Many Millions of Years of the Explosion of Evolution.
Just to quickly cover the Petri Dish Comment..
In a Nutshell this is merely to suggest that Creation, and what leads to US is not any Divine Process... it is just a Experiment that can be done by the Engineers due to their Tools and Knowledge... so there is NOTHING as Special or Important in the Creation of Life, as indicated from some Religions...
All the Engineers needed was the Sacrificial Tool and a Genetic Donation and then the Substance would do the Rest!
Again its not exactly indicated WHY.... it kind of is from Early Drafts and Concept of Idea, and slightly via Deleted Scenes...
To a degree its later indicated because they COULD! but there are other Reasons that could be at Play... i think looking at David as a Proxy could give us Insight.
If we Consider some of Spaights ideas... then to Place this as Basis a Explanation as Lindeloff has... we could Consider these Engineers are Millions of Years Old, they have Evolved themselves to a Certain Point..
They had achieved so much.... and thought maybe... OK.. so whats NEXT? What can they do to SHOWCASE just how Advanced and Great they are... so its a Case of maybe Lets go and try and Create something from Scratch.
So when we look at Weyland he had done similar, he had made Great Technological Advances, a Pioneer in many Fields, people will Remember his Accomplishments.. so he would be thinking so WHATS NEXT? And so the Creation of a Artificial Being in his Image who would ONE-DAY be almost Indistinguishable from a Human... would MAKE it one of the Greatest Accomplishments of Mankind.
A Feat that would prove really how GREAT our Mr Weyland is.... as he claimed... "we are the Gods now"
But then there becomes more than Because he Could..
There are then Applications to his Creation, where he could then use his Creations as a Tool, a Servant a Commodity, something to do Tasks so that We Dont Have to! (The Alien Covenant Prologue gives us a bit more about David).
But the point is that his Creation is something that Weyland decided to do, so that he could PROVE how Great that Weyland really could be... to Prove he could PLAY GOD... but then to Put his Creation to Certain Use!
We could Speculate had the Engineers then decided similar for us?
I think if we look at the Basic Explanation that Lindeloff had offered, then its kind of like the PLOT for The Planet or the Apes Reboot!
Where Scientist Create a Drug that could Improve the Cognition of a Primate... so its ONCE they have Evolved the Primates Brain, its a case of OK lets Test really how close this Enhanced Primate can become more Cognitive and to what LEVEL can this Improved Primate now Learn!
So with regards to the Engineers, it would be like... "so we have Proved we can Create/Evolve Life in our Own Image... lets see how FAR and Close this Creation can Learn from us"
The closer their Creation can Replicate the Achievements of the Engineers would be a sign of just HOW Great their Ability to Create is..
The same applies to Weyland with David, to take on him as his Personal Android, where he can Push the Boundaries of HOW LIFE LIKE can he make David... thus likely why he had more Free-Will and Emotional Capabilities as he was Weylands Test Subject to see just HOW CLOSE to a Human can Weylands Creation Become... making him more God-Like in the Process.
All at a HUBRIS! for all those Concerned... be it Create Mankind, Create Synthetics or Evolve Cognitive Ability of a Ape....
Yeah! "I saw it the other Day and the Predators had Transported a number of Face Huggers onto the Ship."
IT being AVPR.... well the Opening Act.
Here is a On Set take of that Scene.
"3) The idea of P/BR is we were made with purpose but no love. We were made because you can for the convenance of the creator"
The intention of Prometheus indeed was not 1 or 2, but to Step Between those Boundaries, of a None Accidental Creation by a Ancient Race who indeed were playing lets see what we can Create.
The Evolution of the Concept has changed the Outlook on a Reason WHY we was Created, after the Changes and Removal of Deleted Scenes, then we are Left with the Theatrical Cut.... we with Comments mainly by Lindeloff we are indeed shown that its case of those Engineers maybe just could.....
I think Lindeloff just has a Lazy Outlook to it a little, while Spaights seemed to have more sense of Depth, thats not Disputing WHY we was Created... Theatrically its left not really explained... the whole its because we could was a Get Out Card of sorts...
But even if this is the Intention, that we was Created because they could.... then there is the Interesting Part of what do you do Once you realize what you could Create, what Intention then....
And as you mention.. "if that tenuous relationship breaks down" it is really Interesting that you are maybe going to touch on what became of this Relationship Once these Would be Gods proved they could go and Create in their Own Image.
BD- when in AVP did predators transport face huggers? Do you mean AVPR?
The contradiction between Damon and Ridley on the nature of the Mutagen. Wipeout/ start again or Evolve.
In Damon's script
David says when he looks at the droplet.
"From here to the other side."
When he is discussing her pregnancy he says.
"You might want to consider this is not destruction it maybe creation"
Both of these were replaced by "in order to create first you must destroy."
The former belong to a Mutagen that alters the target (Hammerpedes,Fifield,Holloway) the latter destruction the exploding head but,
I think for the sake of drama Elizabeth saying the Juggernaut is bringing death is far more effective than saying mankind will be replaced. So at a communication level for a mass audience calling it death and destruction is more powerful but for everyone to end up halfway toward the Deacon like Fifield is effectively death. In terms of story it doesn't matter and it never happened but we can see with Fifield, the Deacon and Charlie, mankind's future, thats whats being communicated.
In my own work I retain the original phraseology because it has story telling value which plays into the crescendo of Jeopardy towards the end of Regained. I also share with the reader what is happening to Charlie, so the jeopardy of the Juggernaut arriving at earth is that much clearer.
However the exact nature of the Black gloop in the film is unimportant its obvious the outcomes are horrific which ever outcome and most importantly they tell us where the Xeno type outcomes originated from.
On the question of the final height of the Space Jockey (which is all that matters) their are detailed scaled drawings indicating the final size chosen of 8 feet shown in the FG documentary and in terms of discussing the film makers achievements that is all the matters even if there are sketches early on which indicate a taller being. It evolved to a fixed tradition.
@BigDave
First bracket -Answer
Why did Frankenstein make the monster and Weyland David and in the latter case pursue 8 upgrades. Hubris/an aspiration to be God because they were able to but most important of all it was not out of love for their creations. It was non consensual and when both made demands or looked for equivalence guess what happened. There is your allegory for dark angels/mankind.
Second Bracket - Answer.
Elizabeth wants to have it confirmed we are not alone and that when we die our soul resides somewhere. After the experience on the Moon she wants to know why they created us and why they wanted to destroy us. By the end of Prometheus she knows we are not alone but in away that she is not convinced is the final answer.
The issue of soul and where it resides is a very emotional issue for her (mother and father) it becomes a central driver of the final act and David plays a significant role who we also know is interested in, being artificial where he fits in. In Prometheus he is profoundly interested in Elizabeths preoccupation with this part of her journey and continues to be so. David understands the context of soul before Elizabeth for a story telling reason.
Third bracket - Answer
The issue of the Engineers Home world and to what extent we would regard it as Paradise. The answers are :-
1) Would mankind consider it Paradise? Depends who you ask.
2) Would the creatures of the Moon consider it Paradise. No otherwise they would still be there. They are Promethean and ended up with the same fate.
3) Does Elizabeth feel she has arrived at Paradise no she believes she has arrived at the Engineers Home world which also turns out to be incorrect. Does it feel like her definition of Paradise in terms serenity beauty captivating Yes at some points in the story. But she doesn't say ah this is Paradise she says at one point wow this experience is pure Paradise or she sees something and says this is a veritable Paradise. David finds a truth which enables them to understand all sorts of things including what is Paradise and Paradise Lost.
4) Do they meet Adam and Eve. Yes and No.
5) Do they find Heaven. Yes and No.
We were made by dark angels but in the end they came from the "Engineers Home world" and so to use Ridley's word we have recall/foot prints embedded within us which are a fragment of the truth so that is why the truth looks a little like our myths but a lot like something altogether different. The reason the truth is hidden from us is appalling indeed the most appalling truth of my vision but it explains a good deal of why we are the way we are.
To come back to the central point of this entire arc of thinking begun with Prometheus and Bladerunner.
1) Some people believe we are an accident of all the elements of creation coming together Darwinism. They do not look for a loving creator.
2) Some people believe in divine intervention through the power of a loving God.
3) The idea of P/BR is we were made with purpose but no love. We were made because you can for the convenance of the creator and if that tenuous relationship breaks down from the creators perspective start again.
Certainly i think its interesting to see how others would TRY and Continue with Prometheus, expand maybe some things that were a bit Vague in Terms of Theatrically and to offer a Continuation of Questions Raised by Prometheus and those that are NOT really Answered in Prometheus... As far as Theatrically.
*We get Indication that we are a Product of the Engineers Interference both from our Genetic Origins and Creations, to our Development from Cave-Men to the level of Technology just prior to the Middle Ages
(We never got much indication of WHY this Investment of Time by the Engineers).
*We see at some point the Engineers had conducted Experiments that are NOT really Genetically Connected to us, such Horrors which Theatrically was Ambiguous to WHY and so we have Davids "sometimes to create one must first destroy" to go by.
(And so these are things that also a Sequel could covered, because again in Part these are things Dr Shaw would want Answers too).
*In spite of their Discovery, where Dr Shaw may have been so Wrong... she holds on to her Faith that surely a God would not be so Cruel and so WHO had Created them.
(so this is something ELSE that she wants to Discover but would such a Discovery be closer to her Faith or even Further away and Horrific).
*We have the Arc of David, a Superior Creation, who feels Mistreated by his Creator (and Humans), who longs to be Free, and Finally Becomes Free, he has a Dislike for Humans, but in Dr Shaw he comes across a Interesting Case, and so it seems he is Interested in WHAT drives her to Carry On, in Spite of the Discoveries. Her Faith is what drives her on, and gives her Strength and also contributes to her Kindness.
(so its a Question of Davids interest in this and what effect Dr Shaw has on David, and how they could change his outlook on Life and Purpose is something that could have been explored).
*We then come to the Extended Scene a little... were Dr Shaw does want to go to where they (Engineers) come from for her Answers as she has Nothing to go back home to. And the Extended Version we know David says the Engineer told him they come from a Place we would call PARADISE...
(so there is that to Explore, in what Context would we consider the Engineers World Paradise?).
Then you do have other Questions like What is a Soul?, where do we go when we Die? I think its interesting to see David go on a Journey for more of a Purpose than he was Created, and Dr Shaw could certainly Inspire him, so there are a lot of Blade Runner like Themes to be explored.... would it be IRONIC that David is the only being who is actually as close to having the Soul that Dr Shaws Faith would indicate?
So i am not offering my view on any of these, just Highlighting some of the things to have explored that had not really been done so in Alien Covenant.
And so the parts in the (Brackets) are showing what Potentially could had been Explored, and that i think in part is the reason you went about with your Version of where to go NEXT... which i think has been a Labor of Love and something Interesting to Eventually Read ;)
Surely i think they was on the Same Page of where they was going, what i was saying is that things CHANGE and Evolve, as they go along... they keep/change things from Jon Spaights work until Lindeloffs, then his work is changed a bit for Shooting then things are changed in the Edit Process.
But they all had the same idea of where they are Evolving the Process, and they had a Broad Strokes idea of where they are going Next.... which would have been to STEER away from ALIEN and go where Dr Shaw and David would go.....
Ridley Scott gave us some Clues to where it would go, and some would come back to some of the Questions that Dr Shaw had.....
Who Made Them?
Why they Created us?
Why they changed their Minds?
Is there a Creator above the Engineers, it seemed this was the Indication of WHERE they would go NEXT and then its a case of are THESE beings Benevolent and not like those Engineers... the indication would be that they WOULD NOT be...
so this is OFF TOPIC.. but i was to show that they had a Idea where roughly we would go NEXT... before the Process of this become something that they could not get a Working Draft they was pleased with between 2013-2014....... which brought us to the Changes in 2015 that became Alien Covenant.... which really brushed aside a lot of what a Prometheus 2 could have covered.
One Final thing, the Commentary does give us more indication of the Infection and in other Interviews indeed i recall it was suggested that Fifield would eventually had ended up like the Engineer Head, and that Holloway was going the same way (slower Rate).
Which if we consider that, then it would suggest the Black Goo was to Replicate the Pathogen in a Human Host but then would Destroy the Humanoids.... But other Life-Forms would instead Mutate into something ELSE.
A Confusion comes from the Movie is Ambiguous without the Commentary, and then you have to try and Consider what is going on, and then you could be drawn to looking at Previous concepts and Drafts for say Fifield which would give you a different indication of the Effects, than what the Commentary had suggested.
So i think in Context to the TOPIC its a case of these Writers are telling us what is going on with Certain Scenes that are more Ambiguous Visually.
I will add regarding the Engineer and Scale..... i was always one to accept the Space Jockey as a Engineer, the Flaw as Scale... by that i mean there is a Difference in Size which we have to put down to a Oversight!
The Intention was to have the Engineers as being TALLER... but for what ever reasons, at Shooting they decided to use 7ft+ Actors and hope that Camera Angles can make them appear Larger.
some Fans will use the Scale to Argue the Engineers certainly cant be the Space Jockey.... the Intention at Shooting is 8ft beings.... but they could have continued with the Space Jockey by simply showing that there could be TALLER Engineers.. Not EVERY Human is about 6ft, so if there are 7.5ft Humans then WHY NOT some 10ft Engineers? (same difference between 7.5ft Human to 6ft Human).
The other thing that could support the Size Difference, if we accept that Engineers are NOT all Uniform 8ft would be the Comment by Dallas.... it looks like it Grew Out of the Chair.... so that could explain the Space Jockey also growing a bit more.
So for me the Scale is NOT a massive Problem, for MANY it is... When i discus the Scale it on the basis that this was INTENDED to be bigger, but what we got is NOT and that they could have used Special Effects but Ridley Scott had decided to NOT do and as i pointed out above, having 8ft Engineers should not really Conflict the differences.
Because Humans are not limited to 6ft, and so say just as a 7.5ft Human could Grow out the Chair, then Taller Engineers could become Larger likewise.
@Michelle
I know sometimes things can be hard to make out in my posts and people can get lost, sometimes i do too ;)
I was mainly agreeing with what you put, as far as looking at what the Commentary shows us, i think i need to Consider to what CONTEXT is this Topic... and to look at it as Watching the Movie and Commentary with your EYES CLOSED.... then Fundamentally certain things we dont get to see..... I maybe JUMPED the Gun a little, as i have NOT seen the Commentary for a LONG Time and then i have only seen it Properly just Once, as far as Start to Finish.
so i think i have to Watch it Again then come back.....
As far as Contradictions i was talking only slightly, NOT that there is a Massive Shift.... the Bigger Shifts are from Concept Alien 01 The Master Narrative to the Various Drafts... right to the Cutting Room Floor.
So in Context to the Topic... maybe its to discus the Theatrical Cut, and parts of the Furious Gods, Screen Writers Commentary and any Interviews only in Context to the Promoting of the Box Office Release and after and the Promoting of the DVD Release.
so i maybe should NOT be offering any comments UNTIL i have watched the Commentary again.
So from what i recall, the Furious Gods and Commentary was intending to Support the Movie by suggesting..
*Mankind is neither a Product of a Random Events or Evolution, or Creation by a Magical Godlike beings.
*The Engineers are a Ancient Humanoid Race who had played a Role in our Creation via Sacrificing one of their own so that their Sacrifice/DNA is what leads to our Creation or Evolution... regardless which way we look at it or where this Took Place, it was to show us that WITHOUT the Engineers Performing this Sacrifice then there would be NO Humans or at least other Complex Life.
*The Clues that Dr Shaw and Holloway had discovered are indications that Mankind was Pre-visited by beings from Space who are indicated to have Influenced our Evolution as far as Knowledge. They had left Clues that the Scientists saw as a Map, that takes us to LV-223
*The discovery on LV-223 of these Humanoid Engineers that have a DNA match is to show us that we CAME from them.
*The Indication from what i recall was that the Engineers had become Disappointed with how we turned out, and they had began to Experiment with various things that related to the Black Goo, in order to go and USE this on us to EVOLVE us, see what happens to us.
This is one thing by Lindeloff, that RS contradicts a little by when he says they had Created a Specific Bio-Weapon to use on Unruly Creations who had got out of Control and that they use this to WIPE the Slate Clean...
I think i will come back to other stuff after i have Re-Watched the Commentary
A lot of stuff had no Answers, and was left Ambiguous, such as WHY we was created, and WHY we was to be Destroyed more so WHY we had been Created. It depends with these who you Listen to as far as Writers or Ridley Scott also Lindeloff makes it NO secret that he Avoids explaining things, sometimes this comes across as Lazy, but then as he says it leaves things open to discus and if you are more Direct and Spoon Feed stuff then when you go to make a Sequel you kind of have to Stick with what was said prior.
I saw it the other Day and the Predators had Transported a number of Face Huggers onto the Ship.
The Pred-Alien Comment is interested as INDEED it seemed to Produce Normal Xenomorphs that lacked any Predator DNA.
The Appearance was as with ALIENS and so it contradicts the theories we could have about WHY there was differences between Xenomorphs in the Franchise.
Such as Different Cargo Holds....
Or that they loose the Dome Carapace as they Mature.
"Prometheus is really an existential journey: Is there a God? Is there a purpose? Are we alone in the universe?"
Certainly the Purpose of the Movie was to indicate that the TWO Fundamental Beliefs that we have on Earth are neither Correct... We are NOT a Product of a Accidental Event that then leads to a series of things being at the Right Place and Time to lead to Evolution, while also showing we are NOT created by Mythical Magical Gods but that we are the Product of the Donation/Sacrifice of Genetic Material from some Ancient Humanoids, who then further came back to Evolve us Technologically (Knowledge) and Genetically
So through Dr Shaw she is a Woman Brought up on Faith and so she is Searching for something MORE, likewise Weyland is to a degree too (he mainly just wants to be Granted Extended Life) and so through Dr Shaw and the comment by Weyland the Movie was loosely asking "where are from" and "where do we go" when we DIE that is. With Prometheus they had indicated the First One, but "where we go" was Never answered.
So Dr Shaw is making Discoveries that Contradict parts of her Faith, but she is still holding on to her Faith that there has to be more than what she Discovered, Questioning who Created the Engineers, and perhaps expecting surely there must be some Benevolent Creator above the Engineers.
Regarding the Weyland Death Scene.... it has a slight amount of Ambiguity for some, but it is more clearly saying that there is NOTHING for Weyland to gain for his Agenda of these Gods can Grant him more Life....
We then come to that Question.. Where do we go when we DIE? Mr Weyland asked that in his Hologram Briefing.... and Weyland is NOW about to Die and he will SOON Discover if there is NOTHING! or if he will INDEED he will LIVE ON in a After Life.... this i feel is WHY it is that David said about the GOOD JOURNEY...
AVPR was very dark and pretty much black at crucial parts.
They may have misinterpreted Dan O'bannon's premise for less is more. too much darkness actually bores people.
I Raptus There is probably good reason why you haven't watched AVPR in a while. You have my sympathies if you re-watch.
Michelle
I think Sir Peter Weyland is perhaps interpreted as a too one-dimensional character - selfish (money, prolonging his own life). He is really interested in philosophical questions and has made important discoveries in medicine (curing cancer).
In Prometheus, Weyland himself says: “I have spent my entire lifetime contemplating the questions: Where do we come from? What is our purpose? What happens when we die?”
In Alien: Covenant, Weyland says to David: “I refuse to believe that mankind is a random byproduct of molecular circumstances. No more than the result of mere biological chance. No . . . there must be more. And you and I, son, we will find it”.
In this context, it makes sense that the dying Weyland in Prometheus disappointingly says “There is nothing” and David agrees: “I know”. When David wishes him “a good journey”, I wonder if he isn’t sarcastic or ironic (not loving his “father”). “The journey” is, of course, the death struggle.
I’ve been really busy with school work and football. But don’t worry I’ll be here to only respond to topics such as aquatic or terrestrial battles.
Nice to see you’re back shark! I agree that Purussaurus would win, unless Titanoboa actually did feed on crocodiles. Then I think Titanoboa would win
I got it from sameerprehistorica
I choose Purussaurus,also The True Shark boy,did you take inspiration from my topic:
Deinosuchus Vs. Titanoboa?
@Chili
Just a quickie.
David offers two thoughts to Sir Peter.
He agrees with him there is nothing there for him "I know"
but then wishes him a safe journey.
That can have traction.
@BigDave
As you know I fundamentally disagree with you about this issue. It would help me if you could provide examples where Jon contradicted Damon or Ridley on the meaning of the film in 2012. Remember this is a thread about Prometheus 2012. I will happily consider your examples.
I went into Furious Gods expecting a ton of vagueness based on the internet "experts" and found one example where a production designer thought Fifield and Holloway were on the way to blowing up like the head whereas others focused on the Mutagenic nature of the gloop as an upgrade.
I find clarity where it was intended.
I find ambiguity where it was intended.
Of the big three Jon,Damon and Ridley I can find no contradictions in the final decisions for the movie and its a point that Damon made in autumn 2012 he said the three of them knew what Ridley was trying to do. By then there was a body of people on the internet that said it was a muddle. It was not it was a mix of clarity where intended and ambiguity where it was intended.
That is entirely different from where next.
However I study human behaviour and what I see are a lot of people being dishonest with themselves. One simple example. The Space Jockey is an Engineer end of and instead of saying I am out of here they start using issues of scale and whether its a suit (those issues if one is interested are acknowledged and the reasoning explained, they are planned artistic licence). Anyone watching the film and the money shot when the Gantry appears should have no doubt whats being communicated. Then read seven hours of material and its stark raving obvious that is what was intended.
There is a ton of ill informed half baked stuff about what was in the film never mind what might come next and thats why, because I admire all the team who made this film, I will stand my ground when people complain its not clear what the core thread of the story is which I gave in my earlier post.
Do we know the relationship between the Moon and the Homeworld NO! Do we know exactly what caused the out break on the Moon NO! Do we know the relationship between the Pebble Ship and the Juggernauts NO! All that would have come next.
@Chili.
Great post. What you are doing is separating out the emotional content of the character from the rules of the environment. The narrative and the story comes from the former and it is hardly ever discussed in fandom, its nearly all about the rules.
The central rule of the story is someone is responsible for the creation of worlds and life. Its not benign its not an accident it has intent. The little tiny bit we knew was a freaky looking character was carrying around some really nasty stuff which thematically dealt with non consensual parasitical reproduction which was highly unsympathetic and could be received as punishment.
Carrying on with the rules for a moment by the end of Prometheus we know this stuff is produced on an industrial scale by our creators.
Now we move to the story.
Elizabeth is our proxy. What answers are we looking for :-
1) Do we have a soul and where do we go when we die (the little girl who has lost her mother).
2) Are we alone. On the whole she believes we are not the movie dialogue about faith and the deleted scene about Africa.
3) Why did they make us and why did they want to destroy us.
There are lots of ways you can find the answers for her. It won't happen now the trail as they say has gone cold.
Back to the rules.
There has been an argument (Prometheus) and it turns out the guys who made us are on the wrong side and not doing well. (The Moon).
So and this is the 100,000,000 Fox question that they avoided by saying everyone wants the monster in. If these guys have rebelled and stolen something what does the other side of the argument look like. Once you decide that then you can give Elizabeth her answers.
Back to story
Noomi wanted to find her answers and have trouble with them.
Michael thought David was on a search for meaning.
They have form Damon said it really began in the infirmary when he admitted he was interrogating her dreams and of course he is responsible for her becoming pregnant.
So make some rules decide on the dynamic of E & D and get going.
Your destination has to flesh out what an intelligent creation looks like and decide whether being created by dark angels has consequences. For inspiration we have Dr Frankenstein and Sir Peter Weyland.
I hope that contributes a little more to your questions. The one that will never get answered is however you frame God who made that. But there is plenty to get our teeth into before we get there.
Predators from AvP couldn't take eggs from the pyramid because the pyramid was destroyed, and everything around too.
I agree with much of what is said here. There are some themes in this movie, sacrifice being one, but to me, Prometheus is really an existential journey: Is there a God? Is there a purpose? Are we alone in the universe?
These questions are raised by Shaw, clinging on to her Christian faith symbolized by the cross. These questions are answered negatively by David: “There is nothing”. But Shaw isn’t really a believer, is she? She is more of an agnostic, perhaps, searching for the answers?
We, the audience, are no closer to the answers, are we? Well, we know that we are created by the Engineers (there is extraterrestrial life) and that they are no benevolent gods at all. But how did the Engineers come into existence? Is there only evolution or is there something else behind it all?
I like the idea of a mobile queen. Never occurred to me. If AVPR could have its own reboot of sorts done well, it could be a good movie. It did a couple things right but they were fleeting and not nearly enough to carry the movie.
It would have made sense for the Predators to take eggs from the site in AVP before leaving since they were already in the neighborhood but there was nothing in the movie to indicate that they had. And how could they obtain the eggs without having the face huggers activate? It seems to follow nonetheless. It almost seems like a similar mystery to the A3 egg. Well, not really a mystery but bad writing.
According to the Strause Brothers (Colin & Greg) who wrote and directed AVPR, and whose company Hydraulx provided the movies visual effects claim that the PredAlien was a juvenile Queen AKA a Princess Xenomorph, that would have in time transformed into a full-on Queen.
DK you raise an interesting point about that scene. I think we should discuss the elephant in the room about the Predalien. I started a new thread as my response was too long for this thread.
"Lemme simplify my point..."
I think thats a Hard Question...
I would say YES to ALIEN... but i think as far as what ALIEN had evolved into over the Franchise, then i would have rather had gone to WHO the Space Jockey are as opposed to more Queens and Bugs and Ripleys...
Just the Execution was FLAWED, they Toned it down too much with Prometheus.
The Thing that kept me Interesting in ALIEN was more so about HOW/WHERE and WHEN was that Xenomorph Created, and WHO are Space Jockey are.. that Mystery!
If the Movie was about a Cave on a Baron World that had Eggs that was Discovered as they Intercept a SOS from another Ship that had got there First (especially if this Ship was NOT a Alien Race)...
And so we have a Cave, Eggs.... NO signs of Technology, Murals, Rituals... just a Alien Organism found in a Baron Cave...
Then i think ALIEN would have been a Decent B Movie Horror Flick with a COOL Monster... and Nothing more for me...
Yeah we could have go ALIENS still etc... but for me the STAND OUT Scene of the Franchise is still the Discovery of the Derelict, Exploring the Ship, the Pilot Room and then the Egg Cargo Hold.
Each time i saw the Space Jockey Scene i was in AWE!
That is what is ALIEN in my mind anyway, the Prequels had made it less so to a degree.
@Ignorantguy
Certainly i had not indicated the Movie would have been MADE without ALIEN, i was saying the Plot would have worked if it was NOT connected, but Certainly would such a Pitch of a Plot that was NOT SET in the same Universe had got the Go Ahead?
Maybe or maybe NOT... but Certainly it would have been Unlikely to have got the Level of Budget for such a Project... this Investment INDEED came about as we was getting a Movie set within the ALIEN Universe.
If it was not then such a Movie would have been Much Less Likely to see the Day of Light, or had anywhere near the Budget.... more so if the Pitch was just Jon Spaights as he had NOT had anything Produced at this Point, why they went for a more Well Known Damien Lindeloff to Re-Write it.
So your Point is Very Valid, without Alien then Idea/Plot would have struggled to get off the Ground... or Certainly would NOT have been as BIG a Block Buster Investment.
@Michelle
I think some Elements are open to Interpretation, some Elements had enough shown to us, that when we consider the Commentary and Ridley Scott and Damien Lindeloffs Comments they draw us to a Certain Conclusions... some other Interviews do Muddy the Water a little, and things had Evolved from Inception to the Cutting Room Floor, but as far as Comments/Commentary regarding the Theatrical Cut then the Summary you make is what i conclude from the Movie too.
But still there are Elements that allow for Interpretation and Discussion and Opinion, some people do seem to Overlook the Cast in the Movie where some Dialog is Actually there to SPOON FEED us whats going on... well to Indicate things to us....
The Nuts and Bolts could be as Simple as...
*Ancient Superior Beings got Bored, and Decided to Sub-Create "idle hands are the devil's workshop"
*Decided maybe they can make some USE of this Creation and Teach us Stuff (but there is Ambiguity to this because it could be a Group of Engineers decided to do this, and it was not the Overall Plan for us).
*Engineers then began to Experiment with other stuff on LV-223 and became quite Fascinated with this, and Decided that Actually these Experiments and the DNA they have are something that they would go and UPGRADE their Creations with... what out of Boredom? because they found that the Pathogen Deacon DNA is something they see as being something NEW to try as they are Bored of our Creation?
Maybe but there is Elements of Ambiguity to that... its not CLEAR CUT and DRY.
So some things are Ambiguous in My Opinion that is, does that mean thats Correct? Nope! but RS had made further Indications about certain things that changes things.
A Example "sometimes to create one must first destroy"
This can be taken as those Engineers certainly at least on LV-223 had became much more Interested in what makes things like the Deacon Tick, than Evolved Apes like us, and so its a case of lets go and Evolve our Creations with this Deacon DNA/Traits because they feel this is a Enhancement, something Better, or they became bit Bored of Ape-Men.
On the other side of the Coin it could be that this STUFF is what they had intended to go and WIPE the Slate Clean, that then Hundreds or Thousands of Years they can come back and START AGAIN...
Now my Interpretation on this is that the Last Statement is more True... or Was.... but that those Guys on LV-223 had became Fascinated with the Deacon and how it came to be and Decided to Factor this Beast as a Evolutionary Stage instead of WIPE the Slate.... the Question is that would this had been a Unautherised use of the Creation/Seeding and Destruction Tool... which is a FALLEN ACT?
Ideas about Certain things Change/Evolve in the Minds of those who are Giving us these Prequels, this is why some of Ridley Scotts latter comments after the DVD Release appear to differ a bit from what was on the DVD/Blu-Ray Extras.
@chli
I would just like to demonstrate how I make judgements because its clear yet again from this thread people can not establish more than "Its vague" which isn't helpful to you or anyone reading. If matters are still "it could mean anything" after 7 years it is unlikely they are going to have an epiphany.
Humans.
1) The movie begins with an image of sacrifice with some purpose. The creature disintegrates and we see images of cells being attacked broken down and reformed. All the natural informational stimuli (colour, music, aesthetic) indicate the cells produced are an enhancement and a wonder.
2) We cut to cave paintings with someone taller than humans pointing to a star system. The implication is there is a connection between these creatures in the paintings and the previous scene.
3) Dial forward and Elizabeth discovers our DNA matches the inhabitants of the Moon and she tells us we come from them. There is no other narrative agenda nothing indicating anything different.
4) Charlie having sobered up reacts to the news they made us and said there you go there not gods they made us and earth is a goddamn petri dish. David has already said they are mortal after all. So a superior species deliberately created us.
So we are now in lock down the inhabitants of the Moon did make us and through hours and hours of documentary there is no evidence to dispute it.
5) We then discover they are involved in making monsters and the black glope produces outcomes which hint at what we saw in the first film. We see images of sacrifice in the Sanctuary which is a place of worship a point that Elizabeth lets the audience know.(Headroom).
6) We know by the end our makers are not very nice and they intended to come to Earth and destroy and replace us. The story evolves through the Hammerpedes, Fifield, Charlie and the Deacon to show us what they are trying to replace us with. Fifield was mid point to the deacon so as not to steel the coup at the end. (Production confirmed).
So they made us because they could and they want to replace us because they think they have learnt how to. There isn't one single narrative twist, production comment to suggest anything else and as Damon said Elizabeth is our proxy she is telling us what is going on.
We were made by dark angels who had Promethean like stolen technology. The huge philosophical point is our relationship with our creators is not benign or an accident. We are as constructed in the mind of our creators as much as David was and can be upgraded.
Why did they want to destroy? Because they could and wanted to improve upon the design in their view. Why else would they destroy us? Why is there Davids signpost in order to create first you must destroy.
How come they were destroyed at exactly the time Christ died? No idea.
Is the relationship with the Engineers Home world and the Moon consensual. Two possibilities :-
- a) Yes and they are one group with an anthrax island and a seperate place to hang out. That doesn't make sense because the Moon had been unattended for 2,000 years there is no evidence of rebuild anyone coming to sort out the mess etc etc
- b) No the Moon is rebellion from the Home world, that makes sense and the Home world sees the place as quarantined.
So we now know the Space Jockey race made us and they made other nasty stuff besides and they intended to use the glope to change things which everyone and their dog on the production team said was essentially the liquid form of the Morph.
Who made them ? No Idea
What does God think of them ? No idea.
I do not see dissembling in any of this a cigar is a cigar unless you are navel gazing or easily confused or both or have your own pet conspiracy theory and for the avoidance of doubt people don't have to like it.
Gavin You don't have any point there as the comparison is not fair. Why do you compare a movie which generated a franchise which was in decline for years when the second one appeared.
And to answer your question I would rather take 2001 instead of either of them. Hack, today I would take Beyond the Black Rainbow over any of them.
Lemme simplify my point...
Desert island DVD, you can take either Alien or Prometheus, not both which do you take?
If we could poll that chances are most of us would choose Alien.
@BigDave I repeat myself, there would be no Prometheus without the Alien connection. What studio would spend 130 million on Sci-Fi horror without brand recognition or adapting an already established IP? And then again when Prometheus was launched wasn't it said to be in the same universe? The prequel route was clear taken only with Covenant because of fan reaction and corporate greed...
@Gavin I forgot to mention that your precious fear of the unknown was undermined in the first movie by Giller and Hill, who introduced the Corporate conspiracy in the script and who wanted to make the Alien a human weapon and the crew of the Nostromo test subjects. Was that not human-centric? In my book Ancient Aliens are far better than what Alex Jones spouts...
@dk
Certainly.... i think IF the Plot was changed to NOT connect to ALIEN and so Aesthetic was toned down too, so it was a Stand Alone... Different Shape Ship, Different Space Suit to a degree.... NO Weyland Company.
As a Stand Alone i think we would have had Multiple Sequels by NOW that would have become Interesting.
A Prequel was always going to be some kind of Poisoned Chalice
