Comments (Page 209)

I certainly can see where you are coming from, the Space Jockey Scene was Enigmatic, Awe Inspiring the Scale especially when the Crew entered the Pilot Chamber.....

The Scale seemed more Awe Inspiring in the First Shots, the Space Jockey would have been in the 20-22ft Ball Park.  Compared to the Prop would have made it a 14-15ft Being.

When doing any Sequel/Prequel that would either Answer the Space Jockey Mystery or have us be introduced to their Species would be something that would be more EXPENSIVE to portray as a 20ft+ Species.

It certainly is possible nowadays compared to in the 80's/90's but it would be much Easier with a 15ft Space Jockey... If there is to be a LIVE one that interacts with Humans.

When working on the Prequels they introduced the Space Jockey as the Engineers Giant Bald Humanoids who stood 15ft Tall.... if they had pulled off this Scale on Screen with the use of Various Effects like say Game of Thrones and Lord of the Rings had used, then i DONT think the Problems would have been as bad... (regarding the Space Jockey).

Some are Disappointed that we got Bald Humanoids...

But this is the Concept that HR Giger had gone for in 1978..

The Space Jockey had Changed over the Years....

*Started off as a Alien Skeleton of a Species who had attempted to take some Eggs/Spores back to the Ship for Study.

*Evolved to a more Humanoid looking Skeleton.

*Then RS did Story Boards that had been inspired by one of HR Gigers Works.

*HR Giger then came in to Redesign this to the Space Jockey we got in the above image...  looking like some kind of Space Suit at this point.

*Production began and the Space Jockey head came across more Organic/Skeletal, which combined with the Ribcage lead to Speculate it was a Skeleton (Dallas Fossil Comment seemed a confirmation).

BUT then we had Ridley Scott say a long while back it was a SPACE SUIT, and when work began on the Prequels this was the Idea they ran with...

But the Problem was our 15ft Humanoid Space Suited Space Jockeys got down sized to 8ft the Illusion intended to be 9-10ft but they FAILED just as much as the intention of a 26ft Space Jockey in ALIEN.

A Number of Fans are NOT pleased with the Space Jockey, certainly the Revelation does-not add up to the Expectation.

*Some thought it should be a SKELETON of some Tapir looking Alien Species or Elephantine.

*Some Fans dont-mind it being a Space Suit but dont like the Revelation of the Wearer being a Bald Human looking Race.

*Most Fans seem to Feel that the SCALE is off and that the True Space Jockey should have been some True Giant of at least 15ft in Size.

Its a case of OVERSIGHT and IF they would ever consider introducing the Space Jockey from ALIEN as different to a 8ft Humanoid in a Space Suit.

For me the SCALE is the issue i have...

Introduce other Race connected to the Engineers that can be as Human Looking but make them about 12ft and for me that would do...

Other than that, i would welcome the Occupants inside the SUIT to be much Less Human Looking.... OR the Space Jockey is a Bio-Mechanical Being like the Xenomorph was.

But NO to any Skeleton!

Thanks for the message.  I plan on going to see this!  I'm so excited!!!

LOL!

I can forgive the close-up mismatch for the reason that - in that shot - there's no general impression of the overall scale of the creature. Likewise, the dropping of the original giant.

The real problem, one that's tricky to surmount, is the mismatch between Prometheus reality and the Alien distant shot.

There is a way out: the Space Jockey is not an Engineer.

I was always very disappointed that the utterly alien Space Jockey was ostensibly a human in a suit. Giger's original vision was so much better than that.

If I had my way with the future direction of the story...

Space Jockeys (and variants thereof) are a completely different and ancient species. They are to the Engineers as Engineers are to us. The Engineers hijacked their technology, including the ability to grow spaceships and engineer life. Being a religious bunch, they revere the Space Jockeys and even go so far as to imitate them, right down to the elephant masks they wear. Of course, the Engineers are much smaller, and they don't grow out of a pilot's chair in the same way that the Space Jockey does. They don't have the very obvious creeping growths over their arms that blend with the seat, for example.

More importantly, this is a more interesting story line! Imagine if Space Jockeys are the tip of the iceberg, and they have different castes and forms themselves. Endless possibilities for truly alien and shocking manifestations. Do you remember the very first time you saw the Space Jockey in his chamber? How utterly surreal and scary that was. We need more truly alien concepts to arise in the franchise.

Surely, there would be an investigation . . .

Probably...I could see them sending an unmanned probe OR A synthetic to check the crash, in a really small cheap vessel....or have a ship in the area(to like Alien!!)

Opening credits scene: Razor storms and tombs...Dark and foreboding... 

Opening scene: A small spacecraft landing on LV-223 A synth exits and starts it's survey.....

This android lies completely...reports back false data. Tells Weyland Corp nothing. Only about the misfortune of the crew and the faulty landing node ...Nothing about the tombs.

It's name is Ash.

Certainly HOX...

That was indeed the Intention... but this was UNDONE.. by Ridely Scotts approach to Shooting and Scale...

Where close up we see the Space Jockey Mysteriously Shrunk by 1/3rd.

Same Problems happened with Prometheus.. the Intention at Shooting was a 10ft Race... some Scenes showed us that Actually we have a 8ft Race.

The Intention was a 26ft Space Jockey but in Reality what we got in ALIEN was a 22ft Giant that then appeared to be 15ft at Close Up.

Ridley Scott should have used ANOTHER Prop for the Close up that was 33% Larger.... but this would have been beyond Budget.

The Difference is considered a OVERSIGHT... we simply where not to be paying too much attention.

Upon IF/WHEN they would ever introduce the Space Jockey Race or go back to the Derelict again, then they would have to Choose, do we go for a 22ft Race or a 15ft.

When they began the Prequels they decided to go for a 15ft and so actual Prop Size... so the Smaller Children in suits shot was considered a Oversight.

This got Revised down to 12ft in Later Drafts, then intended as 10ft for Shooting but again another Mistake of Scale and we ended up with 8ft Engineers (Suited).

Again RS should have used LOTR/Hobbit Special Effects and Camera Trickery.

By the Time we get to the Space Jockey Event at the Rate of being 2-3 more Movies away.... then we may see Warwick Davies eventually playing the Space Jockey ;)

Here is roughly how the Space Jockey size has changed.

"About the complexes, perhaps there are eggs instead of pathogen in one of them? But that would rule out David as the creator . . ."

It seems they Certainly had Experimented with Various Organisms that relate to the Xenomorph, we cant rule out them Storing Eggs, or even that Eggs was the Basis for the Experiments.

Going back to LV-223 especially Directly after Prometheus would have allowed for the connections and horrors to be found to have many a Option on HOW to explore them.

Why in HINDSIGHT... i feel in Reaction to the Fans... they should have done a Prometheus Sequel that went back to LV-223 that was more like a Alien Engineers...  giving more Clues, and introducing some Alien Creatures that Attack the Humans...   and then we could CLOSE the DOOR to ALIEN.

Then after that they could have Released a Direct Prometheus Sequel that would go where David and Dr Shaw are going and take us to a FAR FAR away place that does-not have to Worry about what Alien Fans want/expect.

@Ignorantguy

I see what you mean, i Understand that it was Weyland Who Created David, but what i meant was in General the Pursuit of Science for Mankind could become a Hubris, its Unlikely that Peter Weyland was the only Human and his Company the only one that was trying to Further AI and Robotics, it was Weyland who had became a Pioneer with David though.  I would however think that Weyland was maybe NOT doing all of this for the Best for Mankind, i suspect some Personal Gain was his Motive... thats just a Opinion though.

"PS. I never said that David should be a good robot"

I am sorry if you thought i was implying that, i was not pointing it out as such (in response to you),it was just that i was saying that its LIKELY the Prequels would not have gave us a Story about David becoming a Good Robot with the Best Intentions for Mankind...  i feel it would have been about him trying to become a God/King as he would have inherited a Megalomaniac Personality from his Father.

Regarding Dr Shaw, she did show David kindness, her Downfall was her Stubbornness in her Faith and being Naive.   She surely would have known their was a Chance that she would END UP being Dead anyway... but her Faith would have gave her some Comfort that a BETTER place awaited her.  (Unless she got some Faith Shattering Revelations).

She had put a lot of Trust in David... but Ultimately she had NO Alternative... she would have had to WAIT for a Rescue Mission, where she would have under 2 years so Unless Technology Improves she would be Dead before any arrive.

Or she would have to TRUST that Robot... even if she wanted to go back to Earth.... Once David was back in ONE piece she is at his Mercy/Intentions.

But she had a BIGGER objective... she wanted Answers from those Engineers, even if the THEY would NEVER give her any and KILL her... she would know thats the Risk she would take... she would also know that before she could even GET to the Engineers, she would have to Rely on David being Completely Honest and that he would KEEP his side of the Bargain..

But she rather do that, than just SIT on LV-223, which if she did there is a Good Chance the Deacon could have got to her.

Its Tragic in the End for her... as it seemed it was NOT a case of being Naive, as she Genuinely thought she had WON over David, that he was actually only the way he was due to his Treatment by others, and so she felt that he actually would NOT harm her...

I think all along there are clear seeds that once FREE you really could NOT be Trusting David... he Cares only for himself.

The answer to why the W-Y Corp wasn’t interested in finding out what happened to Sir Peter Weyland might be that the Weyland Corp was taken over by the Yutani Corp (2099) with Hideo Yutani as CEO. On the other hand, for about 5 years Weyland Corp did nothing to find out . . .

About the body of Mr Weyland, the Deacon might have munched on the body. In some novels, the xenomorphs eat meat and when the food supply is gone they get into hibernation until new victims appear.

About the complexes, perhaps there are eggs instead of pathogen in one of them? But that would rule out David as the creator . . .

@BigDave, don't forget that space-suited children were used in the Space Jockey scene, not 6 feet adults. I reckon the Space Jockey is supposed to be at least 20ft long.

Thought i would Quickly try and do a Comparison, this does have a Margin of Error, it also assumes Space Jockey has same Proportions as the Engineer Suit.

Also assumes Production Worker is about 6ft

This would Indicate the Space Jockey to be about 14.5 Feet Tall, with a Margin of Error it would appear the Actual Size could be about 15ft.

I always thought the Chair was 16ft, i cant remember where but it was described as such, i know the ONE in Prometheus was 15ft as far as Concept i will work out after what it was in Reality but it seems to be about 16ft.

All in all from what i have attempted to do, would mean the Space Jockey is Approximately the same 15ft that the Engineers were Described as from the Earlier Drafts.

This was the Intention, the Trailer Sacrificial Bowl on the Alter is Scaled to make the Engineers about 15ft if we assume the same one was used by the Sacrificial Engineer Scene.

likewise the Head they Examined on the Lab Table was LARGER than the Prometheus Engineer portrayed by Ian Whyte, i will have to work it out again, but when i did it before that HEAD would have been to a 10ft Engineer Scale.

This could be used to simply explain that WHILE we have Different Sized Humans... if the Engineers are on Average 25% Taller than a Human, then indeed some Engineers could stand 10 Feet Tall.

BigDave

But that is not the conclusion, as those who are truly guilty are barely punished. Weyland would have died in a matter of days so he asked for more life as Batty and for that he was punished. How is humanity even to blame as a whole in a hyper-capitalist world where evil corporations do shitty stuff? What could they do? Shaw was punished for being kind if anything, which none of the so called gods were. Even the current Engineers are they still guilty for stuff that happened 2000 years ago (to the extreme an anti-Semite would say that current Jews are they blame for the death of Christ, which is stupid)?

PS. I never said that David should be a good robot, but I don't think that you can have a good series with a good guy without a given name (I dare you to say her name without Googles).

I think Ultimately while things had Changed from after Prometheus it was Unlikely that David would have continued to had become a Friendly Loving Robot..

The Purpose of this TOPIC would be if we could RE-DO a Prometheus Sequel and so we could IGNORE what happens in Alien Covenant like it Never Existed, hence Back to the Future as in to CHANGE.

Even when considering this i FEEL that Alien Covenant still gives us indications to a more LIKELY outcome to what David would have become..

He would have seen himself as Superior, he would only wanted to go to see these Engineers in order to see what he could GAIN that would be of Benefit to himself...

Weyland said in his Ted Talk... regarding the Future Creation of beings like David... "we are the Gods now"

The Logical Conclusion would have been David's Pursuit to become a GOD and Creator to behold the Engineers Secrets and Technology for his OWN gain.

It would not have been 100% Certain if David would have KILLED her (Dr Shaw), it would appear likely that she would have been CONCERNED and Disagree with Davids Motives and Ambition and likely that Dr Shaw would want NO PART of it..

Which i think David would not take being Turned Down, or have Dr Shaw be against his Wishes... so things LIKELY would have Turned Bad for her...

So if we got a Different Prometheus Sequel it would be likely that a Confrontation would have happened between Dr Shaw and David than any kind of Collaboration it seemed almost inevitable that David would become the Antagonist and this would NOT be too Good for Dr Shaw... this does-not mean that SHE could NOT have Escaped or Survived.  or at least attempted to Get Away from a Twisted Dr Frankenstein that David would have LIKELY had became.

I will add that indeed Ignorantguy to FIT with the Themes that appeared to be at PLAY then a Logical Conclusion could be that David becomes the Space Jockey as the Ultimate Hubris for what he had done...

The Xenomorph being Mankinds Hubris for Creating a David, and also the Engineers for Creating Mankind that lead to David...  It would therefor be Fitting that Davids Creation becomes his Ultimate Hubris too.

With a Logical Conclusion that there is NO God and NO One should PLAY God!

@chli "I think that AC had a kind of logical continuation from Prometheus. David developed towards this even in Prometheus and the relationship with Shaw was doomed and her fate sealed when she attached his head. The doppelganger motif is always interesting and the plot was generally good. I don’t mind David dabbling in creation either (as long as he doesn’t end up as the Space Jockey)."

That is only your opinions, wishes, and what you expect from the genre. Other disagree with you. Bet let's take into the inventory what we know. Shaw was killed because the studios asked so not because was inevitable. Why, probably they thought they would make more money. It also made David more villainous in a cheap way. He does not grow any bit in Prometheus he hates humans right from the get go, but somehow is stuck on Shaw. On the commentary track Spaiths says that he sees in her and her man some kind of equals because of there smarts (not very well conveyed on Charlie). In Covenant he considers himself better than humans partly because he is Immortal, after more or less dying in Prometheus. He becomes also a rapist (yes Big Dave he sexually assault Daniels) to explain why the Xenomorph is a rape monster and to become the new main villain.

And you know what, for me the only logical way to finish this is for David to become the Space Jockey, because of genre cliches and motifs. Of course, game novelization will be put aside and contradicted, what non-MCU directors and screenwriters have time for those? 

"Prometheus. David developed towards this even in Prometheus and the relationship with Shaw was doomed and her fate sealed when she attached his head"

This Certainly would be TRUE... before we got Alien Covenant, RS had said that Eventually Dr Shaw would put David back together again, but once she does this he would be Very Dangerous, but he was also Very Convincing.

So Ultimately once he is in ONE piece then Dr Shaw is at the Whim of WHATEVER it is that David wants, especially once she is in Cryo-Sleep then David is Free to do or Go where-ever he wants... HE would surely Care for his OWN Agenda..

But instead of Messing About on LV-223 or going to Earth with a Engineer Ship, he does indeed go to a Engineer World, The Crossing implies that David discovers more about the Engineers, their ways, which maybe could Influence the reason he Bombarded them!

The other Factor to Consider is that David sees himself as ALIVE, he would want to Survive and if he LOVED his Travel Companion then he would want to ensure that SHE also Survives.

He would NOT care much about WHAT she wanted to Find Out, the MOST Important thing would be SURVIVAL... so for that he could maybe NOT risk going down to see the Engineers as you cant GUARANTEE they would Roll Out the Red Carpet and Accept them..... never mind give them Answers.

It is likely that he FELT from the remnants of the Engineers City he could maybe Discover Answers for Dr Shaw.  He could likely then TRY and offer Dr Shaw something she could GAIN from all of this... IF he was unable to get any Answers from what remained.

I think it would have been Highly Likely Regardless of IF we never had Alien Covenant but a Prometheus 2, that David would have Destroyed the Engineers to ensure his and Dr Shaws Survival.

Then i would assume David would want to have Dr Shaw as a Companion but it would be more for his OWN needs than Dr Shaw's own Happiness if he felt that She did-not want to be his Companion or agree with what ever Plans that he has... its likely that David would TURN on her.

I think Certainly there would have at Some Point been a Mission or Investigation to inspect what had happened to the Ship and its Crew.....   The only way something would be Brushed Under the Carpet would be by someone WHO would Benefit from the Death of Peter Weyland and Miss Vickers.

The other Board Members would likely had known that Weyland does-not have Many Years left in him, so it was only a Matter of Time... so for anyone else at the Company then having Miss Vickers simply Disappear would then Open the Door to Benefit someone else.

If we consider that, then who ever would GAIN could certainly had done a Cover-Up, a Sham Investigation so they could then Take-Over or Benefit from the Company.

They may have NO Concern to what happened to Prometheus and WHO-KNOWS what Officially Weyland had told them about the Mission.  They would only be interested in the ASSETS that Mr Weyland had.

But certainly in Light of the Advent Video by David, then it would be VERY likely the Company would surely Investigate LV-223.

"I would love a return to LV-223 But I think this opens a can of worms?"

I actually think it would Provide Answers, by Virtue of LV-223 being there it is a Can of Worms... a Mission to LV-223 could Conclude with its Destruction which would then make LV-223 something that would NOT Conflict the Franchise.

"They would find the body of Sir Peter Weyland"

It depends on WHICH of the Complexes they Visit! do they go to the Life-Boat, where did Dr Shaws Warning come from etc.

This image is intended to show that the Prometheus Wreckage and Life-Boat too are before the First Temple which the Prometheus Crew Visited.  We see from the Ending that Dr Shaw is heading from Near the First Temple Complex and NOT from the Juggernaught, so she LIKELY had gone to the Wreckage or Life-Boat First.

So it would be Likely the Message was Sent from the Life-Boat so that surely would be a Place any incoming Mission would Investigate, but then they would also likely Check Out the Crashed Juggernaut.

So YES i think its Highly Likely they would Discover Mr Weyland's Body.

"Would the Deacon still be alive?"

This depends on HOW-LONG does the Deacon Live, we simply dont know, or HOW it could Procreate so its UNKNOWN if they would come Across the Deacon, given it could be Many Years after the Deacon was Born.  If the Deacon dies then what becomes of its Body?

We also dont know HOW-FAR the Deacon could Wonder Off and so its UNKNOWN where it eventually went or would be.  But i think if the Crew go into the First Temple or Crashed Ship maybe they could come across Similar by Virtue of Contact with the Pathogen... also have to Consider the Hammerpedes.

"What’s in the other pyramid mounds?"

We can only Speculate, i would assume Similar things maybe happened in those places? It seems for some Reason that Dr Shaw and David were Heading to the 2nd Complex, and we do see that David had Bombarded the Engineers on Planet 4 with a Cargo that was on the Ship they had obtained.  There appears to be more than ONE Hanger per Complex, but maybe Dr Shaw felt the First Complex was Compromised to Risk going back to...

But the other Juggernaut they obtained also has a Bio-Weapon and we could Speculate that maybe each Complex has a Variant of the Black Goo? 

Maybe each Complex has more than ONE variation inside?

I think thats a Good Point... it is a bit odd how he would say "its no a synthetic" as why would they ever consider that this ALIEN Ship would be Piloted by a Synthetic, so if they said "its not Synthetic" that would make sense, but as he said its Not A Synthetic we have to consider he meant as in NOT a Synthetic Android, but its like would they had been Expecting One?

So we have to Wonder how much had they known about the Ship etc before they arrived to come out with a comment like that?Unless when they saw the Chair and how the Space Jockey was attached by Wires, they first thought it must be some kind of Synthetic Robot, but close inspection it was more Organic and NOT a Synthetic.

But i think what it ULTIMATELY comes down to is the Author using some Dialog to Clear up some things and so they had placed that Dialog to Indicate that the Space Jockey is in NO-WAY a Synthetic Android.

A indication that its NOT going to be David, which is not the best thing to put, as it would be Good to leave it Ambiguous until the Conclusion so WHEN/IF we get a Continuation some Fans may Expect its going to be David only to then be relieved that it DOES-NOT

Looking at what you have put from the Novel i think its the Author attempting to push us towards certain things.

"The human form was huge - at least 16 feet tall"

This is a Narration of the Scene, indicating the Space Jockey is Humanoid (well Bi-Pedal) and to indicate it is HUGE, the Thing is the Space Jockey Chair was 16ft, its Unlikely the Space Jockey is but we DONT see his Legs so we cant assume how LONG they are in Proportion to his Body... it does-not matter much, all this Narration seems intended to do is indicate the Pilot is certainly LARGE (Rules Out David, a Human and our Engineers from the Prequels).

"and it had been there a long time. It looked like a fossil”. Its ribcage had exploded outwards"

When the Fossil Comment is used its usually to indicate that it looks Skeletal and that its been there a LONG Time, actually it would be more like it was Mummified, the Indication here by the Author is to lead us to the Space Jockey had been there a LONG TIME... certainly what appears to be more than say 30 YEARS.

"it’s hard to tell where the suit ends and the wearer begins, but it’s not a synthetic. It’s definitely a life form”

This clearly shows a Indication that we are dealing with a Space Suit, but one that is Organic more than None-Organic where its hard to tell what is the Organic Suit or the Wearer.

This does fit well with the Concept Work, there are some Differences between the Engineers Suits, and Space Jockey, there are some Differences between the Juggernaut and Derelict.

The Juggernaut/Engineers appear to be LESS Organic, there are also some Size Differences...

These could come down to just OVERSIGHT...

If we look beyond that and try and Logically look at the Differences then we would likely have to Conclude.

1) They are the Same/Similar but over Time the Suit/Ship had Warped/Changed shape, grown and changed, this could make sense if they are Organic to a Degree, but WHAT could change the Composition/Size of the Ship/Suit in a Short Time.   But it could be something that could CHANGE over a LONG period of Time... which has to be more Longer than Thousands of Years as the Dead Engineer Suits in Prometheus had not changed.

2) They are some what Different, like a Newer/Older Model a Technological Evolution, but i dont see the Engineers Technology Changing VERY Often, so its not like say the Juggernauts were part of Different Models they bring out every Few Thousand Years, its Unlikely the Derelict is thus a Newer Model that came out only a Few Thousand Years ago.  It appear more likely the Derelict seemed like a more Ancient Model.

3)  It could appear we are looking at a Older slightly different Technology that is more Organic, this could maybe draw us to Conclude that the Derelict is a more Ancient Technology than the Juggernauts, that they belonged to a different Race to the Engineers (or Variant)

But who knows what we would END UP with.... going the Route that the Derelict Aesthetically is the same Technology as a Juggernaut (Created/Engineered at the around same Time) that then has ONLY been on LV-426 for like 10-15 years MAX and the Pilot is a 8ft Engineer never mind a Human or Human Synthetic, is surely a Very Difficult Oversight to Accept.

So those remarks from the NOVEL are a indication by the Author to show that we are dealing with a Humanoid, that is inside a 16ft Space Suit that is Organic in its Material and has been there for a VERY Long Time.

Taking the NOVEL as 100% Canon, and looking at ALIEN, it would appear we could ASSUME we are looking at Ancient Ship, with a Ancient 13-16ft Pilot that has been there for more than a FEW Thousand Years.

MonsterZero

What about a pending lawsuit concerning insurance money? In a way, it was sabotage of the ship where Janek went against company orders (Miss Vickers').

Surely, there would be an investigation . . .

I would watch a LIVE CAM of LV-223 (probably night and day!) Don't need a scripted movie...Just watch the razor storms roll across the planet and a couple shots of the tombs....Hoping to catch a glimpse of movement!

Did you see that!!?....Something near the escape pod moved?!?...........probably just the wind?

Well, W-Y would have examined what happened to Sir Peter Weyland, Miss Vickers and the expensive ship, wouldn’t they?

I'm not sure they would bother?..If my boss flew off to Africa (to do something and crashed the expe$ive company jet).....Doubt I'd even fly down to check the crash site. I/we've got control of the company! 'Time to implement the changes it drastically needs!', "Higher wages! more transparency!...'Sad about the old man and his daughter but we've a company to run.....Now our first change...'

I would love a return to LV-223 But I think this opens a can of worms?

Well, W-Y would have examined what happened to Sir Peter Weyland, Miss Vickers and the expensive ship, wouldn’t they? It seems logical that they would investigate LV-223 before sending colonists to Origae-6?

It would be interesting to go back to LV-223. They would find the body of Sir Peter Weyland. Would the Deacon still be alive? What’s in the other pyramid mounds?

Actually, Marlow says that “it’s not a synthetic. It’s definitely a life form” (“synthetic” with “a” in front).

I also believe that Scott focused on the aesthetics of Giger. How it looked (bio-mechanical). Not that it was a combination of biology and mechanical parts. The xenomorph in Alien looked bio-mechanical but was certainly biological - an organism with secretion and drooling jaws.

When David experiments (on Shaw for example) I imagine there would be a combination of biology and mechanical apparatus, tubes etc . . .

I think going back to the OT, some part i assume your indication is the Novel rules out David as Marlow says its not Synthetic, and also mentioning the 16ft Size.

It also Mentions a Suit... 

I know some Fans are Disappointed its a Suit, but then look at the Space Jockey and imagine what Species this Skeleton would Belong too?  It could look a bit SILLY.

Then its HOW is it connected to the Chair?

I am sure some remember this interpretation in some of the Comics from way back.... is this better than a Bio-Mechanical Suit?

So i think we need to remember HR Giger and his Aesthetic of Organic meets Mechanical...

The Xenomorph and Especially from ALIEN is Bio-Mechanical.

so another Option for the Space Jockey could be a revelation of a Bio-Mechanical Being.... No Skeleton, No Suit... but a Totally Living Bio-Mechanical Entity.

Some of HR Gigers works carry some Space Jockey look and Aesthetic, and so maybe a Revelation of a Ancient Bio-Mechanical Race as the Space Jockey could be the way to FIX things.

Certainly i think it would be Interesting to see how far and to what Extent things had Changed with Alien Covenant.  As it was the Summer of 2015 when John Logan had came in to adapt Dante Harpers earlier Paradise into Paradise Lost work which then November changed to become Alien Covenant.

Micheal Green gets Credit in those Drafts, but not Jack Paglen who had began working on a Earlier Project before Green came in Late 2014.

So it would be interesting to see how much different the Earlier Ideas were, i think Ridley Scott had indicated a bit about where it was going, which seemed to be Quite Different to what we ended up with.

Regarding AC i think it was not a Bad Idea Plot wise, i think the David is the Creator Curveball was a Mistake and trying to go a Direct Prequel Route (so that without the Events of Alien Covenant we would not have ALIEN).

I think the Execution was not that Good and the Big Problem was they was trying to get Too Much in a under 2 Hour Movie and so Short Cuts, and Pacing had to be taken into account which is why some Scenes where just RUSHED.

I know the Changes came out of FOX feeling that maybe they should have gave more Clues/Answers in Prometheus, and maybe Fans would like to see Xenomorphs again...

But they could have gave a Sequel that could have gave more Clues to the Xenomorph and remain it as Ancient, and introduce Xenomorphs without having to EFFECT where Dr Shaw and David are going.

Problem would be how do they involved DAVID? it seemed they felt that David and Dr Shaw (in earlier drafts) had to be part of a Prometheus Sequel.

In Hindsight they should have given us a Alternative Sequel and go to LV-223 that would have had more CLUES to the Derelict, introduced Xenomorphs or something Very Similar... and allowed them to CLOSE the Door to ALIEN.

They could have Cast Fassbender as another David Model... he could have been a Survivor who then at the END of the Movie would want to be off to where the Engineers Came from LOOKING to Destroy them... (get Revenge)

They could have then had the Next Movie be about David and Dr Shaw as they arrive at a Engineer World that is FAR FAR away, it may even take a LONG Time..... and it could be open that after these events.... we have a Sequel where the OTHER incoming David is on his way!

But what about Human Characters.... again do we assume Earth is the only Place that had Humans prior to the dawn of Mankind on Earths expeditions into Space...  So it just took a bit more CLEVER thinking to come up with Alternative Stories than we got..

For example you Never had to go and do a Direct Literal Prequel to Cover the Derelict or Xenomorph Origins.. a Re-Visit to LV-223 where more Exploration is done with less Ambiguity... then show a Discovery of some Eggs and Xenomorphs or VERY Similar, thats all that would have been needed.

Oh WELL....  it may seem i put a lot of counter arguments in support of the Eggs not being Ancient... this is NOT to suggest this is the route i am Fond Of..

It should have been KEPT to Ancient and either keep it a Mystery or Find other ways to give the Answers without having to Force them within a Time Frame of Post 2105.

But ALAS.... 

I think that AC had a kind of logical continuation from Prometheus. David developed towards this even in Prometheus and the relationship with Shaw was doomed and her fate sealed when she attached his head. The doppelganger motif is always interesting and the plot was generally good. I don’t mind David dabbling in creation either (as long as he doesn’t end up as the Space Jockey).

However, the movie was too much about action and a heroine who is like superman. They wanted to please the Aliens fans - not the Alien fans.

Apart from having interesting characters and very good actors, Alien was creepy and scary (which AC was not). The monster was lurking and sneaking through dark hallways and vents. In AC there was action and a rapid tempo. In order to create a scary atmosphere, you have to slow the tempo down and let the camera slowly move through the dark hallways.

So, I don’t think it’s the plot which is the problem with AC, it’s how it’s done.

It would be very interesting to read Jack Paglen's draft. I wonder if it's possible to get it somehow? I suppose 20th Century Fox has the legal rights to it?

One thing I like about Giger's work is ambiguity and paradox in his visual work. The viewer is left to interpret and fill in the blanks. We can all agree it is dark and disturbing, but we all have different levels of what dark and depraved really is. We can't quite put our finger on it and so we debate and discuss. That aesthetic needs to continue regardless where future movies or shows may go. We need to always have that sense of "what am I seeing"?

I would love to see more HR Giger Aesthetic, i know some may be Disappointed with how Toned down we got from ALIEN to Prometheus to Alien Covenant.

I would love to see some kind of Tribute to him in the Franchise but this is doubtful... it would have been nice to go to a very ALIEN place...  Have Monuments, Murals that Depict HR Giger himself, implying him as a Ancient Alien being, a Predecessor to the Engineers perhaps... maybe also Part Bio-Mechanical, maybe Elongated Head?

Taking some Inspirations from some of these...

What if we also saw some beings related to the Engineers even if its Elder Engineers and have One of them appear in HR Gigers likeness?   Or have a Main Head Statue in his Likeness?

Or even a HR Giger Connected to some Bio-Mechanical Apparatus, or even just a Mural to show such things?

I would also think O'Bannon needs a Tribute, again maybe some Engineer Elder in his Likeness, or a Statue/Head thats in his Likeness (Engineer O'Bannon).

I think another Neat Nod to him would be to bring his Concept/Idea of the Xenomorph to the Big Screen.

The Fresco from Prometheus does have a bit of Dan O'Bannons work with one of HR Gigers, its like a Amalgamation of them..  I know a number of Fans wondered what the Significance of the Fresco was.. and if we would see such a Creature in a Sequel.

I would certainly like to see a Morph that is more close to O'Bannons Concept and also maybe the Fresco Creature.

If the Fanboys Get their way... then Disney could likely give us this ;)

Well as far as HOW does anyone get to the Surface i think as ALIEN showed they would require Space Suits.  We have to Assume the Derelict could maybe have had a Breathable Atmosphere, we see Dr Shaw did-not need any Suits to Survive on the Juggernaut while it was drifting through Space.

so some how the Environmental Systems had Failed/Been Damaged or Disabled, if they was Disabled maybe they could be Turned Back on?

"David, Daniels, Tennessee, 3 fodder characters"

I would see No Use for Fodder Characters from the other Prequels, i guess the Purpose of this Topic was to come up with ideas of Exploring going back to either LV-223 or/and the Derelict after the Derelict Event (be that post 2105 or Ancient).

So the only way to introduce any of those Characters would be IF they either Survive the Events of the Prequels (What would happen in Alien Covenant 2) or IF its that in a Alien Covenant Direct Sequel they go to LV-426 which is really then WHY i made Alien: Back to the Future Part 3 (what to do with Alien Covenant 2).

so a Separate Alien Prequel thats SET before ALIEN but after the Prequels (or Parallel) would likely Benefit from Introducing NEW Characters ;)

I think when working out the Story you Plan you have to Consider a Few Things, in your Opinion/Idea.

1) Has the Derelict Been on LV-426 for Thousands of Years and in NO-way is David responsible for those Eggs in the Egg Chamber.

2) Are you Considering that a) the Eggs are on board the Derelict or b) the Derelict is Sitting On-Top of a Separate Egg Storage Facility.

If a) then where did the Eggs Come from, or indeed where is the Underground Facility that has the Super-Queen, is it Near by the Derelict or on another Part of LV-426?

If b) then is the Egg Chamber connected to a Labyrinth of Tunnels that lead to the Super-Queen Location or is Located on another Part of LV-426?

3) What are the Future Implications from this Idea (Underground Bases and Super-Queen) until and after ALIEN?  For Example how come No-One appears to have gone back to LV-426 to explore these other Places, and only seemingly Interested in the Derelict in regards more so to between ALIEN: Isolation (if considered Canon) and ALIENS

Not to say No-One has bothered again... just what would be the Story behind it, obviously maybe there is a Cover-Up or a Wicked Agenda.

I think in context to WHY would David remain on Planet 4, this was a Subject of a few Debates in 2017, it was Speculated he had stayed to LURE in more Hosts... but if there was any Luring it was a attempt to GET away from this place... well likely.

The Movie only showed us the Incoming Juggernaut that David and Dr Shaw were on, that was Intercepted by the Mother/Scorpion Juggernaut.   Then David Unleashed the Bombardment, we saw the Engineers suffering the Effects of the Bombardment and that was it.

We later saw the Juggernaught Crashed on the Mountain with NO Explanation.

What became of the other Docking Ship was a Mystery but it was in  the Movie just easy to miss...

It could be seen in One Shot, Crashed in the Background and we also had Concept Artist Wayne Haag have a Conversation about it and they said the TWO Ships has a Dust Up (Confrontation) and so thats HOW both of them Crashed.

So we could Speculate this Left David Stranded, but the Deleted Scene did show the Hanger had other Engineer Juggernauts.  It was explained in the Novel that after the Bombardment those Ships were Disabled in order to PREVENT any Infection Leaving this World.

Wayne Haag (i think it was) had referred to the Docking Ship as some kind of Border Control.  So a likely Explanation is as a Safe-Guard the Scorpion/Mother Docking Ship would likely have some Control over the Ships, so maybe once this Ship was Damaged it would Automatically Disable the other Ships.

I would assume the Docking Ship had something to do with WHY it is David cant use any other Ships, because i FEEL he could surely Figure in 10 years a way around their Systems to Re-Enable the Ships....  But if the Docking Ship is the Control/Safe-Guard and its Systems Suffered Damage then its Logical to Assume that David simply CANT repair what ever was Damaged.

If David had been able to Repair a Ship then where would he GO?  I think it depended on his Agenda.. if it was to Destroy then he would aim to either Increase the Number of his Xenomorph Eggs, or simply go and Bombard Earth, this would depend IF the other Ships had any Black Goo, i think that would be a SILLY move for the Engineers.

So i assume if David could get another Ship he would have gone to LV-223 to Experiment with his Xenomorph and to Load Up more Black Goo, well in my Opinion..

But in Context to the OT...

We have to Wonder does only the Enhanced Prometheus Engineers have the USE of the Juggernauts?

We have to also ask if this Place is Considered the Engineers Home-World in General (likely One of Many) then where is the Pebble Like Seeding Ships from Prometheus?

The Engineers abandoned these and Seeding and Converted to Mass Genocide?

Or could it be that the Juggernauts had replaced the Seeding Pebble Ships for a Manner of Tasks?

They could still use those Pebble Ships as other could be throughout the Galaxy we cant Assume the Engineers only have a role/visit or use a Handful of Worlds.

Fanboys poster

I had often wondered why David did not just get another ship, repair it & leave Planet 4. He chose to stay there & do his experiments.  I guess if he had even been able to repair a ship, where would he go?  After Weyland's death, he no longer had a connection to anyone, or anywhere?  He was then able to build his Planet 4 crazy family!  HAHA!!

Thanks again for another great topic Big Dave!

Scene:

David, Daniels, Tennessee, 3 fodder characters. They are standing on the surface of LV-426. A large temple is near them. All but David are in protective suits.

David looking ill “Something is not right…We must leave..”

He turns towards the landing vessel and tries to take a step...His eyes roll up into his head and he falls over.

Tennessee “The hell..?”

Daniels “This is our chance!”

They scamper back into the landing vehicle, Tennessee enters the pilot seat.

Tennessee attempts to start the engines “..It’s no good...David’s locked the controls”

Reason for this scene? I don’t want David to be the narrator. They are truly stranded.

Yes! Very cool!

Problem I see: Getting the crew down from orbit...could be very difficult transferring them in the wind and high gravity of LV426.

Certainly i think while Directors and Writers can mention certain things and plans...

Ultimately its what we see is what we GET...

Things Change as Each Movie comes along, and especially with each New Director, Fan Reaction i sometimes taken on board...

We dont know WHEN we will get another Movie, we dont know WHO will Direct the Next Movie, we know that we NOW have someone else in Charge (Disney)

And so any Sequel could change things... and its whats continued on, or replaced/changed that maybe we have to Accept.

Certainly a little Ambiguity does allow Freedom for a Sequel so your not PAINTING yourself into a Corner ;)

Which  Alien Covenant unfortunately kind of has done.

I think where-ever it is that this Primordial Entity comes from or is Located....   the Discovery of it, maybe a Flash Back could reveal INSIDE something like this.

The more this Entity consumes the more it Grows, more like a Bio-Mechanical Living Plant, it could then Grow like a WEED across a Planet, a Vision of this... with more of a HR Giger Aesthetic.

Eventually the Surface and Interior also looking like these.

What happens when a WHOLE WORLD has become Infected and Taken Over, does the World become a Living Entity, what happens then?

Can the Entity somehow Move the World...

Does it move to INFECT other Worlds... becomes the DESTROYER......

A Incoming NEMESIS!

Yeah Lovecraft is definitely my angle!

The Engineers use to retrieve the black goo from the veins of these creatures(large IV's), But that was the old days/ways. 

LV-223 would also work...The razor storms are just as cool as LV-426's.

Regarding Ridley comments. Like an extras and add materials - they are not on the screen. Not on the screen = not a part of a story. Not a part of a story = not a canon.

Regarding Walter/David in the end. I think this is done on purpose. This ambiguous gives more opportunities to the next film. Ridley/authors can can calmly think and choose the best option for the next film. Without another U-turns and retcons.

I think that is Interesting....

To propose some MASSIVE Organism or Bio-Mechanical being to be the Origins of the Black Goo or the Eggs etc.

HR Giger had felt the Derelict was Grown and was LIVING.  Why his idea was that the SHIP was what Produces the Eggs.

So having some kind of Structure under ground that is Part Organic, Part Mechanical that is LIVING and Grows could be something Interesting to Explore.

Regardless of IF this was on LV-426, LV-223 or some Distant Place we have YET to Visit.

How did it get onto the World?  was it always there, had it Grown from a Smaller Size?

Was it some Bio-Mechanical Ship that had been Damaged and Crashed, and then was Buried under Millions of Years of Volcanic Activity and Sediment....  Discovered by Curious Travelers, who saw some of them Consumed by the Bio-Mechanical Nightmare... then it Grows, Starts to show more signs of LIFE.

The more it is FED the more it Grows the Stronger it gets....  Maybe the Engineers come to some Covenant with the BEING a agreement where they are given something in PART of this Co-Existence in Return for Sacrifices?

Some kind of Symbiotic Relationship?

This certainly would be a very ALIEN twist, something very Lovecraftian and fitting with some of HR Gigers Twisted Works..

I had Pondered back in 2012 and made a Topic speculating about WHO is at the TOP of the Chain of Creation....  Elder Engineers, another Species, a Single Being, Magical Entity or a Machine!

Ridley Scott had commented in 2015, that IF the Engineers are the Forerunners to Mankind and other Life in the Cosmos then HOW is it they have Worlds that allow them to do this... WHERE IS THE BIG GUY

When talking about Prometheus 2 Shortly after the First Movie, he had said that David and Shaw are off to the Planet of the Engineers, were they will meet these beings who are NOT Gods and NOT Benevolent but David is bringing Hell with him.... WHAT HAPPENS... when the GOO infects a GOD or a MACHINE.

I found that Interesting and i even considered a Plot about HUGE Ships... Bio-Mechanical Craft that are Sentient and Living and Very Ancient.... Ships that are as Large as maybe Small Moons..

And so the IDEA that you propose MonsterZero is NOT so far off that from my Interpretation... something UNDERGROUND... something HUGE and something that is Bio-Mechanical... the Super Queen as you put it...

Or MOTHER EARTH!

In a number of Ancient Mythos we have Ancient Primordial Beings... sometimes depicted as MASSIVE MONSTROSITIES sometimes inferred to being the EARTH (Actual Worlds) itself... and Mostly that these Primordial Entities are the Origins of Life, or Worlds.. the Cosmos...

So a Lovecraftian/HR Giger Twist on those would be Interesting ;)

I think a lot is down to Personal Interpretation, especially when taking on board the Novels as often there can be Significant Differences were the NOVEL is Different, for example i had heard the ENDING is Totally Different.

Its a case in my Opinion that the Movie should be Accepted more than a Novel, in terms of IF the Ending or other Big Plot Points are so Different.  I also think that with Extras that were NOT in the Movie, they also should not be taken as Concrete... for Example the Egg Morph. (this does-not rule it out, but until its shown again it has to be not Considered 100% Fact).

I do think that it was Ambiguous i see No Clear Proof to determine WHO's Body is on the Covenant.  I think there could be Counter-Arguments due to Flaws..

I do However... think the Indication is ONE of these Options.

1) David defeats Walter and he Steals Walters Clothes and Cuts his Hand Off.

2) David defeats Walter and he Uploads his SOUL into Walters Body.

Going a route that is is 100% Walter would be a TWIST, it would indicate that in DESTROYING his Brother something happened and Walter then decides to see that David was right.

I think the Purpose of the Scene where Daniels asks him about the Cabin on the Lake is the Indication that this is NOT her Walter... it would be David or Davids Soul in Walters Body.

Regarding the Walter-Morph, this was the basis of rumor and theory that IF it is the Walter Model is Part Organic then maybe they could be part of HOW the Xenomorph eventually becomes Bio-Mechanical.

We cant say if there is ANY truth to this as a possibility, Chris was ASKED to remove a Few Topics/News about a Walter/Synthetic being used in the Evolution of the Xenomorph, so we have to wonder WHY it is FOX asked those to be removed?

It would be a bit of a Plot Convenience... we saw in Fire and Stone that a Synthetic Construct (Eldon) could be infected with the Black Goo, and so maybe Walter is similar in design?

I think regarding the Walter-Morph, we cant rule something like this out, but it could come from a number of avenues.

1) I think regardless of IF it is David's Body or David's Soul in Walters Body,  The Next Movie he would be Unlikely to appear with ONE Hand...  so either be a Walter Body with ONE Hand manages to Get a New Hand from Spare Parts (as indicated in the Drafts).... or if its David's Body then its likely he would UPLOAD his Soul into a Walter Model from Parts.

2) It is indicated that other Parties would be coming, and its likely that 1-2 of these would be Human Missions, its shown that for the Most Part we always see a Synthetic on board and so its possible we would see at least ONE more Synthetic, that is maybe more likely to be a Walter Model or Based off the same Technology.

So Potentially a Walter-Morph Plot could still happen.