Comments (Page 212)

chli Yet, the same 20th C. Fox approved for Covenant (in Meet Walter) and it's novel prequel that the Walter line is part organic at least. So are you sure that could not be David in Walter's body?

“it’s hard to tell where the suit ends and the wearer begins", this is a very weird phrase as usually space suits cover the whole body... And if the suit is organic, the wearer inside could be a synth.

At least this confirm that the Jockey is a suit, not a giant elephatine alien. Yet they they made it even taller than it was...

We cannot be certain how the lore keepers think, but they could keep inconsistencies to generate endless debates on forums to keep the series relevant. Yet, we can see that RS did not imposed his ideas as there is no Covenant sequel and some things could be course corrections.

Coming back to an interview RS gave after the release of Prometheus:

"Fandango: Do you worry that you’ve lost the element of surprise that worked to your advantage with the original Alien? By now, we’ve seen numerous movies in the Alienuniverse, and like it or not, audiences are coming in with an expectation that deflates tension and suspense. Did you feel the need to pull the audience in to the story in a different fashion this time? 

RS: I was hoping I had with the fact that you have a sequence at the beginning of the film that is fundamentally creation. It’s a donation, in the sense that the weight and the construction of the DNA of those aliens is way beyond what we can possibly imagine …  

Fandango: That is our planet, right? 

RS: No, it doesn’t have to be. That could be anywhere. That could be a planet anywhere. All he’s doing is acting as a gardener in space. And the plant life, in fact, is the disintegration of himself.  

If you parallel that idea with other sacrificial elements in history – which are clearly illustrated with the Mayans and the Incas – he would live for one year as a prince, and at the end of that year, he would be taken and donated to the gods in hopes of improving what might happen next year, be it with crops or weather, etcetera. 

 I always think about how often we attribute what has happened to either our invention or memory. A lot of ideas evolve from past histories, but when you look so far back, you wonder, Really? Is there really a connection there?”  Then when I jump back, and you put yourself in a situation of a cave painting, you see that someone 32,000 years ago is showing me a little man sitting in the darkness, using a candle light that is fat from a creature he killed and ate. And in the darkness are two or three other family members whose body heat is warming the cave. But he has discovered that from a piece of this black, burnt stick, he has discovered that he can draw pictures on the wall. In essence, you have the first level of emotion and a demonstration of entertainment, right? Because he’s drawing brilliantly on the God damn wall. Now, you put yourself into that context, it’s 100-times bigger than Edison. And people don’t go back to the basics and ask, “Holy shit, what gave him that knowledge, that jolt to not scribble on the wall but draw on it brilliantly?”

...the plant life, in fact, is the disintegration of himself.

We can safely assume the planet 4 Engineers welcomed the Juggernaut as they were waiting that one of them would be taken and donated to the gods in hopes of improving what might happen next year, be it with crops or weather, etcetera. 

Were they the originals in a way of the original genetic material used to seed all the other worlds by gods or beings superior to the Engineers?

Can we exclude the possibilty that a faction of the Engineers visited Earth and had a major influence in the evolution of humans, by genetic manipulation and later by sharing knowledge with the first humans, like Prometheus? If this was done without the approval of the other Engineers it is logical that once they found out a competitive civilization evolved on Earth, that would sooner or later threat the universal order, they would want it destroyed.

Did the Engineers seed other worlds for themselves? If this is the case, they would not want humans on their worlds, unless they needed slaves or subjects for experiments. But they did not seem to need slaves or lab animals. So the humans might have been an accident or most probably a wrong doing by some faction of the Engineers. 

Aliens DC is the only way to watch imo.

If nothing else, it illustrates how languages/stories/facts can get distorted over time and interpretations become way off base?

This might be OT but I can't help but see Giger influence in RE Code Veronica X. 

Ha Ha Certainly ;)

Then i wonder how that effects ALIENS next time they see that ;)

I think when looking at that Question again... The Destruction of Life so they may Re-start again, then it is a Flawed way to go about it..  Especially if you are Genetic Space Gardeners and this is a IMPORTANT part of your Culture/Agenda.

It really depends on what we look at regarding the Black Goo and in Prometheus it appeared everything that came into contact with the Substance just got Evolved/Mutated into something that Carried Some Traits of the Deacon (well similar Traits it shared).  However the Engineers could also have shown signs of Breaking Down like the Sacrificial Engineer but at a Slower Rate.  a lot about the Black Goo was Ambiguous.

The Earlier Concept with Alien Engineers and the Scarabs was more Clearer...

I used think/remember this was a Female Primate (Mandella Effect?) but having checked out TWO drafts online (Quicker than on my Hard Drive) it mention's a Primitive Woman and a thing to NOTE is before the Sacrificial Scene the World has NO signs of Civilization so this Female is either a Earlier Primate Part of the Puzzle or a Cave Woman... 

Either way its to indicate the Engineers Sacrifice is what Evolved this Primitive to more Modern Human.

Our Next Encounter with the Scarabs..

We then see Fifield again latter...

Which when we consider BOTH together it implies the Scarabs Pass On/Inject the DNA of a Organism they had Consumed and this Evolves the Organism that is Injected with the DNA/Traits to become a Hybrid.

Primitive Woman + Scarab (Consumed Engineer) = Primitive Woman/Engineer Hybrid which is our Ancestor.

The Fifield Event seems to be another Injection/Evolution but this time with Xenomorph like Traits... only these Scarabs came from a Vase/Urn.

I know Prometheus is a bit Different, with the Black Goo, but we Certainly see the Sacrificial Goo breaks down the Engineers DNA but then this is either Reformed into Building Blocks of Life, or Infects Basic Life to Evolve it.

The stuff in the Urns appears to just Imprint Xenomorph/Deacon Traits... (maybe it came from a Sacrificed similar Organism).

Thanks for Baring with us ;)

Why i mention this on Context is that IF the Goo works like the Scarabs, then would surely DROPPING down either Urns of the BASE/SACRIFICIAL GOO or the Results of Sacrificial Goo + Engineer be much better way to RESET a World rather than Dropping a GOO that would Create Horrors like the Deacon, Hammerpede and Neomorph etc?

But then we have Alien Covenant with the McGuffin Radical AI Goo which can be a Lazy or Convenient way to make the Goo do what ever you Program it to do.

Which then leaves us asking WHY the Engineers were Calcified/Petrified and WHY the only other Black Goo Bombardment Result we see is the Spores (However i feel they are a Result of Unused Urns that leaked into the Water Stream on the Mountain over time and infected Fungi!

If thats Correct then it shows the Black Goo could be Programed to Simply Seek out Certain Life, Replicate and Replace all Cells with Calcified/Petrified Cells. Which actually would make it a GOOD TOOL for Eradicating Life and leaving a World then Fresh to Start Again.

Regardless... i still think if we Consider the Sacrificial Scene and a Engineers Broken Down Material was Collected into Containers and these were Dropped onto Worlds, this would make a more Fool Proof and Efficient Seeding Method.

I think thats one of the things that cant be Proved or Disproved either way, well certainly as far as the USE of the Juggernauts.

A few things to remember with the Sacrificial Scene is that Ridley Scott said it did-not have to be Earth, which with his other comments about the Space Gardeners implies that the Engineers have used the same Ritual on other Worlds, likely Prior and After this had been done on Earth.

Ridley Scott has a few times over the years said the Engineers Return to Check on their Creation and IF they deem that their Creation has not turned out to Plan or are behaving in a way that goes against what the Engineers deem Appropriate.... then they would ERADICATE Life and Restart again...... Bit of a Flawed Approach Especially Considering the Black Goo and Effort that had gone into Creation of Life, not just Humanoids on a World.

But in Context to your Question, we had RS say before in 2012 about the Engineers Destroying Civilizations and he even thew ATLANTIS into the Equation... which was a indication that the Engineers could have been Responsible for the Disappearance of Atlantis and its Civilization... to make room for OTHER replacements.

This seems a Indication that there had been Prior Civilizations on Earth that were Eradicated.

Regarding the Juggernaut in this Context this is UNKNOWN!  However RS had mentioned in 2012 that the Engineers Technology is MILLIONS of Years Old, but this was never clear as far as Juggernauts? or the Seeding Pebble Ship either.

I guess something to Consider would be IF they had used the Pebble Ships to Seed Life on Earth, and the Earth was as that Planet Appeared in the Prologue, then its a case of WHAT does this Scene Show?

The Planet had Plant Life so we are talking IF it was Earth or Regardless that it Certainly was NOT Billions of Years prior.   It could be that the Engineers Sacrifice was the Prelude to the Cambrian Explosion and so could be when more Complex Life began... but it could also be the Engineers Sacrifice would have been at other Periods of the  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proterozoic  and so IF we assume this happened on Earth (Sacrifice) then the Pebble Ships would have been around for over 500 Millions Years and maybe even over 2 Billion Years ago.

So all this could maybe Prove is the Pebble Ship/Sacrifice (if applied to Earth) had happened over 500 Million years ago and thus that Technology and Engineer Race are over Half a Billion Years Old...  it is NO indication to WHEN they had Obtained/Created the Juggernauts however..  But we could Speculate they are Millions of Years old too.

Is there a way to prove or disprove the Juggernaut destroyed life on the planet prior to the Engineer drinking black goo and "seeding" it?  

Looks like the theatrical cut. They should play the Director's Cut just to mess with the casual fans (I don't remember seeing THAT) :D

Certainly they are some Very Valid points, they are things i have discussed before and what kind of draws me to thinking those SHIPS are NOT Military.

But thats maybe for another Topic ;)

But Planet 4 does show us those Engineers are welcoming the Ship back, they seem of NO Concern about the Ship and what it can Carry, which means maybe they are Very Confident that NO-ONE would be able to Hijack their Ships....  and No Concerns that any of their Own kind would Turn Up and USE the Bio-Weapon on them.

So this would indeed imply that as FAR as they are aware there has NEVER been any Rebellion/War against another Faction or if ONE  had happened it is Considered LONG over and so No Concerns.

But there could be other Reasons......

something to Consider is that what we have is Planet 4 seems to have ONLY the One City where these Engineers all Choose (or maybe dont) to Stay, a Single City that at its CENTER they have a HANGER for their Military Ships.

The Engineers in Prometheus was Considered to be NOT so Stupid to Store/Experiment with the Black Goo on their Home-World and so what does that mean for the Ships in the Hanger, are they ONLY Permitted to Land if they have NO Bio-Weapons on board?

Another Question would be if these are GARDENERS of Space then where would they Store the SEEDING SHIP?

Regarding the Hanger and Juggernauts as these were shown via a Deleted Scene, it could be Considered that they MAY-NOT be Canon, in that maybe we have to Accept the Hanger only allows for ONE ship?  But then the Deleted Scene could apply as it Certainly would have been Part of the Original Idea.

It was indicated (i cant remember who by, i think in the Novel?) that the Ships had been Grounded Following the Bombardment as a Safety Procedure.  So that Nothing could TAKE-OFF (likely to Spread the Infection).  While going OFF-TOPIC... is it a case of Permanently or a Set Time and if so could this be Overwrote as far as Protocols. 

I would say its more Logical that the Scorpion-Ship had something to do with the Control and Once this was Incapacitated it Rendered the other Ships Useless.

"I guess only David could tell us more about the Engineers"

There is quite a lot that we DONT-KNOW and that could be Explored, i hope we get to Discover more about them.

Who knows what Explanation if Any that are given to the Differences, there could be Many Different kinds of Engineers. Indeed Ridley Scott had said more than ONCE that those LV-223 are the like the Military, but years ago he also said this in regards to them, indicating the Elders/Sacrificial Scene are the Space Gardener Variety (yet they all looked the Same).

Back to the OT and the Differences, i think maybe as the Prometheus Engineers (well Sacrificial) lacked any Nipples and they look different, to our Planet 4 ones who have Females and Infants... then i think it is Plausible that those Prometheus Engineers are a Enhanced Variant, they could be CLONED Soldiers, or Engineered like the Replicants were.

We have to remember the ship piloted by David was welcomed warmly by the planet 4 Engineers. So I believe if the LV223 Engineers were soldiers, they were their soldiers. Not seen as enemies on planet 4. What was with all the ships from the underground hangar, under the plaza? Were they grounded there following a peace treaty, were they for defense?

I guess only David could tell us more about the Engineers.

I can pretty easily see how a king would fit into a hive, and how it'd work out well. It may seem unneeded- and that's because, well, technically it is! But just because a hive can well survive without one, doesn't mean he couldn't bolster it well. Queens, by official math shown in the second movie's trivia, lay 15 eggs per hour. That adds up real fast given they're laying constantly, and each and every egg not just needs a host, but the resulting Xenomorph is going to need food, water, and space to live like all the others. While more numbers means more Warriors & Drones to hunt for prey & hosts, it also means they're stretching themselves thinner to cover enough area to find all that food. A bigger hive is both more powerful, and yet, more potentially vulnerable. 

So what good is a King? A king can not only pair with a Queen to increase potential for royal offspring (she seems to mostly suppress her own genes for that to make normal workers, so adding his own would help up chances) which helps the species populations and hive numbers on that planet. This also gives potential for a Queen to become an Empress, if she can stay dominant over her neighboring daughters. He's a walking tank standing between the hive and any big threats. And, though warriors are plenty good at hunting, it doesn't hurt to have some extra muscle to take down bigger, better quality prey for the ravenous swarms. 

The hive doesn't NEED a King to survive. But he could definitely be helpful. He could definitely make a situation a lot scarier for anyone facing down that hive. If he helps a Queen become an Empress, well, that's even more fun potential.

I also kinda imagine him being akin to a bigger, better Praetorian in terms of ranking- he's not there to contest authority. There's no point- he can't lay eggs, he doesn't have telepathy or the right pheromones, he can't run the hive. But he is there to defend the Queen and keep others in line for her. Help keep it running smoothly. Like a second in command, the muscle for the brainpower of the operation. The hive is still a monarchy.

Perhaps less why, more, why not? It could work, and it could be great.

I think back to the OT....

Then indeed its been a Process Regarding the PLOT of those Eggs...  Starting from Starbeast... but i think we need to ignore that... and just look from  ALIEN and then it does appear that Ship had been there for MUCH longer than 17.5 Years or Less.

The Prequels began to Indicate a Connection between the Space Jockey and Xenomorph, and while Prometheus Toned down some stuff, Alien Engineers and Prometheus had indicated the Xenomorph was Related to Experiments Carried out on Outposts from Thousands of Years ago.    THUS implying the Derelict had been on LV-426 well the Xenomorphs had been around for WAY before Prometheus. 

Ridley Scott even explaining the Space Jockey Event as it was not Spoon Fed on Film, and RS had indicated the Event was connected to the LV-223 Experiments and the Derelict had been on LV-426 for about 2000 Years. (give or take few hundred)

BUT ALAS...

We while this seemed to be the case Prior to 2015, things changed and we got Alien Covenant where it seemed to imply that DAVID had been the Creator

Ridley Scott again came in and Confirmed this to be the Case.

HOWEVER...

There are a Few things that Give those who dont see the Xenomorph as being a Creation of David's some Hope/Proof that the Xenomorph was NOT created by him.

1) Dallas had said the Space Jockey was Fossilized this is incorrect but Dallas is NO Expert, the Space Jockey would have been Ossified.  But then we have to remember the Space Jockey was considered a Space Suit (Concept and RS comments). Regardless the Scene does-not look like it was something that would Occur in under 20 Years. and so does HOLD some Weight (Ancient Xenomorph). 

2) The Mural in Prometheus showing a Xenomorph and Face Huggers, the Mural is Ambiguous and it simply shows a related Organism to the Xenomorph/Deacon with Alternative Face Huggers. it HOLDS no Weight as evidence (Ancient Xenomorph).

3) The Novel by ADF, which indicates that David discovers the Egg as it was...  However he did his Novel based of some of the Earlier Drafts which had NO indication of this and it was simply something that ADF added.  This means we maybe cant Consider this as Canon and its Questionable regarding if it HOLDS any Weight... But its something that cant be 100% thrown out. (But the Movie should be Prime Source of Evidence).

4) The Artwork of David his Experiments and some of these show more Classic Xenomorph and also the Classic Chest Buster, they are NOT so easy to make out in the Movie, or the Advent so much.. But they are work that David had apparently drawn..  So is this PROOF he had Contact with the Classic Xenomorph? maybe or maybe NOT...

They could be Aspirations to what he wants to Perfect or that the Classic Design was First and the one in Alien Covenant are what he had Evolved them to.  Does this indicate and HOLD Weight to the Ancient Xenomorph...  MAYBE!  But the Other Work Notes indicate that David had created all these things from Black Goo and Neomorph Spores and NOT from any EGGS.

So it seems likely that David had created or at least the Predecessor to the Xenomorph but this was created from the Neomorph and Black Goo that was NOT created by David.

But regarding the Eggs... it seems likely they Originated from David's Experiments on Planet 4, and are NOT a Ancient Organism.

This is the intention and indication  by Ridley Scott too....

HOWEVER.....

Disney own the Franchise, and would realize HOW Disappointing Alien Covenant was and how Fans are NOT happy with the Direction as far as ORIGIN or the Xenomorph and so there is EVERY chance that Disney could CHANGE the Origins to Please Fans... in order to NOT have Fans Boycott the Future Movies.

And so UNTIL we get a Conclusion or more Concrete Proof in Future Movies that either SETS IN STONE or Discounts that David is the Creator..

Then its up to Fans to as Dr Shaw says "Choose to Believe" in what they want.

My TWO CENTS... In Hindsight it was a Mistake... David should have Re-Created something Different and more Superior.  The ULTRA-MORPH

PS but i know the intention was Ultra-Morph is just a Xenomorph Born from a Engineer.

@Chli

Certainly there are various reasons for the Differences, the PLOT does indicate the Engineers Seed Many Worlds, Ridley Scott saying some Engineers return to Planet 4 as they periodically come back.  So there would be others out there the Question is are these Guys Seeding Worlds, Teaching Creations Knowledge or coming back from a Holocaust/Genocide of Worlds?

We have to Consider them in relation to God Mythos and so they would Certainly have SET Rules/Ways of Life that their Civilizations would Adhere too both Engineers and other Humanoids.

We could Ponder if those Worlds are KEPT a Certain way, and are Nurtured/Taught to Live a Certain way, we dont know how Long the Engineers Spend between Visits but it could be Hundreds of Years, if its Thousands then the Potential is there for some Worlds to Decide to LIVE differently than they had been Created for.

This Certainly would Warrant the Hierarchy to go and change their Ways and to have a LAST RESORT.

We could also Wonder if other ENGINEER Worlds through-out the Galaxy all SING/DANCE to the Same Tune, so they could have Conflicts with Each other... Certainly could have happened in the Past... and for the Hierarchy then the Creation of a Military to Put things in Order would be IDEAL.

I think we need to LOOK at the Differences, and then LOOK at the Engineers as being a Race who like their Genetic Engineering and then LOOK at Mankind in this Context!

There has been a number of Sci-Fi about the Creation of Super-Human's and Super-Soldiers. It was something that the Nazi's had planned to do. 

If you was a Government/Country who wanted the Edge over your opponents and your Scientist could Genetically Alter Humans to make them 2-3 X Faster/Agile, 4-5 X Stronger, have them Feel NO Pain or Emotion. Have their Senses Improved to like 5X better.

Then on the Battlefield you would have a Advantage of Sorts based on LIKE-LIKE (Similar Armed Humans vs Super-Soldiers).

This would be similar to the Replicants being used like the Universal Soldiers... and so when looking at the LV-223 Engineers we could PONDER if thats what they are...  Enhanced Engineers for a Purpose.

A Problem with Creating Such Group would be IF they realize they are SUPERIOR and become Sentient, you would want some Safe-Guards like a ability to Control them, make sure they CANT Procreate etc.

I think maybe this could be somewhat is up with our LV-223 Engineers.

Something to CONSIDER... is that our Sacrificial Engineer appeared to look the Same.  And so this is where we could WONDER... is this another Purpose of those Enhanced Engineers?  or had those Enhanced Engineers decided to Sub-Create their own Creation (Mankind).

The Differences with the Engineers, and Ridley Scott then saying those on Planet 4 are the Originals does change things a bit.

IF the Elders Scene was Kept and RS never made any comment about those on Planet 4 being Originals, then we would be Drawn to those Planet 4 Engineers as being a Hybrid or Sub-Creation. It would indicate the Prometheus Engineers are Superior and there is NO difference between Sacrificial Engineer and LV-223 Ones.

IF the Planet 4 Engineers had similar Eyes and Marbled Skin as the Prometheus Engineers, then we would consider all the Engineers to be Superior and the LV-223 kind are just more Military Trained.

BUT... they are Different and if we take Ridley Scotts comments (have to dig them up) then it implies that the Prometheus Engineers are a Version that they had Genetically Enhanced, that they Genetically Engineered (from Embryo's) and so similar to Replicants... or that a Group of Engineers had decided to Enhance themselves.

I think in these cases, if we look at the Real Implications of Genetically Engineering/Enhancing Humans for a Purpose or a Group of Humans begin to Genetically Engineer/Enhance themselves....  then their is the Potential for the Enhanced Humans to see themselves as Superior and should be PLACED at the Higher Level than NORMAL Humans... what Massive Implications this could have?

A Part of me is drawn to maybe this being the WOLF and how they renounced their Ways.. (Genetic Engineering or at least a Certain Aspect of trying to Perfect something).

Regarding the WOLF... yes with David it appears it is the Xenomorph and his Lambs will be the Covenant Colonist.

Regarding the Engineers its more Ambigious... i think the WOLF related to the Genetic Experiment/Black Goo and maybe the Sub-Creation of the LV-223 Engineers?

But it could be interpreted that there SOLE Agenda was to Create Xenomorph Related Organisms that they then used others to Sacrificed themselves for.

This could be looked at and made to FIT with the whole ALIEN Plot as far as Xenomorph... but it kind of Conflicts the Gardeners of Space and HOW the Engineers interacted with Mankind in Ancient History Plot and also looking at certain things with Planet 4 and considering the Prometheus Mythos and Fallen Angels.

I am led to Ponder that some Engineers had grown fed up of their Purpose to Serve, and at some point had came into Contact with a Parasitic Life-Form that they then saw the Results as Intriguing and so they began to Experiment with this and Worship the work they had done and Intended to Populate this more Perfect DNA across the Galaxy instead of using the Engineers DNA.

Like i said and Ignorantguy has pointed out, it comes down to the Writers NOT really thinking about HOW can one Movies Ending lead to the Next without any Conflicts.

The Plot of Alien Covenant had indicated that it took David and Dr Shaw quite some time before she could TRUST him, for this you needed PLOT Conveniences... for those they needed to have Salvaged Stuff from the Prometheus. and so as Ignorantguy also said we have to look at where LIKELY these could have came from.

They could have been Salvaged from the Wreckage but i find it UNLIKELY

But for Plot Convenience and Lazy Writing and Oversight it cant be ruled out!  The other OPTION is the Life-Boat and indeed Dr Shaw had gone there for some Supplies as she was running low on Oxygen.

A thing to remember is WHEN/WHERE did Dr Shaw make her SOS Warning?  If this was while on LV-223 then what we have to Consider is that this SOS was DAYS after the Prometheus had been Destroyed.

So its likely she had gone back to the Life-boat for items she may need, this is based on what would account for the Plot Elements that we saw in The Crossing. It is a MASSIVE Convenience that the Photos of Dr Shaw and Holloway were on the Life-Boat but it was also a Massive one IF they had Survived the Destruction of the Prometheus and by that Virtue if the Photo's Survived then other things could have too.

It all is just a Oversight to suit the PLOT of The Crossing.

"A "best of both worlds solution", would that really satisfy everybody?"

Well the ANSWER would be NO!

I dont think anything will please everyone.. and Disney would have to look at what may please MOST... but FOX made this mistake with giving us Alien Covenant as far as bring back the Beast.

They could CAVE IN and give us a Movie that goes to LV-223 and Discover in a Complex they have a Queen and that the Queen Actually Produces a Nano-Parasite Organism and these then Gestate into Xenomorph Eggs.   Which then could reveal the Engineers saw that these Parasites could also Infect a Organism Directly and Evolve them into a Hybrid.

And so the Engineers just Experimented on these Parastic Procreative Organisms the Queen Produces to make the Black Goo.

They could turn the Sacrificial Scene to actually being the Engineers Procreating Xenomorph related Horrors and NOT seeding his DNA.

Then we would get a Indication the Xenomorph is ANCIENT and Natural and the Engineers merely just Experimented on them... or SERVED them... such a Plot Change could please a lot especially those Cameron's Aliens Fans..

But even changing things may NOT work if the Movie is POOR and there would be some Fans who still would not like that Direction...  You simply are NOT going to please Every Fan....

I now think they have a even more Difficult Task to do that NOW, considering the David Created it Plot.

Its a Question of do they TRY and please as many Variants of Fans, but maybe a "Best of Both Worlds" would not work.... do they Continue with the David Creates It Plot which many Fans may Boycott or indeed just Pretend it NEVER happened.... or do they Find someway to show the Xenomorph was Ancient.

I have had a FEW ideas who to do that....  also considered before Christmas a QUEEN as the Origin like Plot as vaguely covered above... i am NOT a Fan of it, but i thought it out as maybe a way to make it about some Related Organism as the Origins of the Goo/Eggs. as maybe that would please more?

Dark Nebula "the ill fate inhabitants" , well David would have snapped a neck right there.

Pretty sure RS described the Engineers as a civilization in the commentary of AC when he was describing the hall of heads.

As far as the Planet 4 Engineers being the originals again, it was mentioned by David in the novelization.

"...with nothing to occupy myself other than the compiling of a simple collection, I began to do a bit of genetic experimentation of my own. Simple cross-breeding, hybridizing, what have you. I like to think that the ill fate inhabitants of this world, the original Engineers, would gaze on my work with approval."

Kudos to this topic: http://www.alien-covenant.com/topic/45718

chli I've just rewatched the scene after the crash. Shaw is to leave the "life boat" with a bag of supplies. The Prometheus blew up to smithereens so it is highly likely that nothing remained to salvage. The pictures of Shaw (1 in the derelict and 1 on David's altar to her) in Covenant is pure magic as I don't see how could have survived the explosion of the Prometheus neither does Shaw take with her pictures (only the ring). 

First of all, it’s 2000 years between the Engineer we meet in Prometheus and the Engineers we have a brief view upon in AC. What has happened during that time? What has evolution executed? Have the Engineers changed physically and psychologically? Have they changed in their way of viewing the world and life?

We know there are different races on Earth who look differently, have different customs. traditions and religions. But we also know that we strive to perfect ourselves, get rid of disease, longevity etc.

Are the Engineers we encounter on LV-223 genetically enhanced or perhaps made in a laboratory in order to perform certain tasks? Or are they just another race and separated by 2000 years between the ones we briefly encounter in AC?

Humanity consists of individuals who are different. They are therefore suited for different tasks: some are strong, some are fast, some are intelligent, some have empathy etc

I think the Engineers on LV-223 were just militaries (we're in the army now :) ) and scientists in their service. The task was to wipe out humanity since we didn't reach the wishes that "the gardeners of space" had hoped for.

The Engineers had left all human strife behind a long time ago. They had understood the folly . . .

Shaw went to Miss Vicker's life pod because she needed oxygen. It was not in order to stroll about. The photograph of her and Holloway can hardly have been in Miss Vicker's quarters . . .

As for "the wolf". I interpret it as meaning the xenomorph (not genetic engineering). David also has his "lambs" to experiment upon, but "the wolf" is "the perfect organism" which David will unleash if they don't heed his olive branch (peace treaty).

Is David the creator of the xenomorph or isn't he? That is the question. A "best of both worlds solution", would that really satisfy everybody?

"Planet 4 inhabitants and Ridley told him that they were simply the civilians of the Engineer race while the ones from Prometheus were militant types"

Yeah i have heard RS call them Military a few times, i dont think this adds up but thats for another Debate. Thats because when i look at the overall clues and the Ships i come to the Conclusion they are Seeding Ships.

I will add as far as Original and Military then again we could consider the LV-223 kind are Enhanced, so kind of like a Cross between Replicants and Universal Solider if you would ;)

I am having trouble finding a Source for what RS had said.

I have to try and dig it up.... but he had said those Engineers in Alien Covenant are the Original Engineers, he also had implied that the Engineers are a Civilization and not a RACE.. again i cant seem to Find a Source...

Now did it just Imagine it lol

@Dark Nebula

Nice Catch i can only make out the E the other one below is hard as its not full but could be Engineer Letter Q or R

I think its a nice touch to go and see it on the Big Screen, as sometimes you dont get that same effect when watching a movie on the Small Screen.

"But what would have the Engineer would have eaten during his trip to Earth?"

Your reply kind of would have been like mine,  in that Dr Shaw and David had obtained ... a Star Chart, a Table, the Flare Gun, Tools to repair David and picture of Holloway/Shaw among other things that surely could not have all been found in the Wreckage of the Prometheus.

We have to bare in mind if we consider the Ending of Prometheus as Chronological then the Deacon had Gestated in the Engineer for over 4 days... enough time for David and Dr Shaw to Salvage from the Life-Boat, the Engineer maybe appearing as Dead?

Again its a case of Poor Writing and Oversight perhaps.

Regarding the Quote i took, as far as "But what would have the Engineer would have eaten during his trip to Earth?"

Well the Crossing Draft by Logan seemed to show the Juggernauts have Showering Facilities and a Room that grows Fruit lol...  But then also Dr Shaw was attracted to David and they Sex so enough said about that Poor Writing ;)

@Chli

The Banish the Wolf comment is Ambiguous it could be regarding the Genetic Engineering using other Organic Traits to Evolve themselves.

I think its a case of how do they Fix it?

1) Cave in and U-Turn again and somehow show that the Xenomorph is Ancient and David does-not create it?

2) Continue with the David as the Creator Arc despite it NOT pleasing most Fans..

3) Try and find a way to give a best of both worlds Solution?

You're welcome Ingeniero :)

Perhaps the gardener/sacrificial/worship Engineers kept specimens of all of their creations in the silos & the LV-223 'fallen' Engineers turned those silos into hostile biological weaponry vessels.

Wonder if there were even giant Juggernauts which carried the silos & placed them in situ, as the base of the silo has legs?

Hah, that's a pretty cool idea Dave! Arcturians who can bewitch & enthrall other species, using a form of telepathic mind control.

Much easier than shape-shifting! ;)

chli Wasn't Shaw scavenging for resource on the life boat when the Engineer attacked? I cannot see from where else she could  have found anything as everything else blew up. But what would have the Engineer would have eaten during his trip to Earth?

Well for RS, David becoming the Spacey Jokey probably would have been a great twist, but reactions happened...

I will get my copy of this great book next week.

There is one interesting little detail, when Daniels, David, Tennessee, and Lope escaped from the planet 4, in the next shot of Covenant orbiting the planet some Engineer letters are visible on the surface.

Our main admin Chris was formally invited by 20th Century Fox to the premiere of Alien: Covenant. At the premiere, he got to meet Ridley Scott and asked him some questions regarding the film. He asked him about Planet 4 inhabitants and Ridley told him that they were simply the civilians of the Engineer race while the ones from Prometheus were militant types (he didn't publish the interview anywhere for some unknown reason, he just mentioned that in one of my threads). 

As far as the planet 4 Engineers being the originals, I think that was mentioned in the novelization of the film. 

Nevertheless, comparing both factions side by side might imply that Planet 4 Engineers were simply just civilians, the original, pure race, thus why they appeared human-like (their planet is identical to Earth btw). And the Prometheus ones were just enhanced soldiers, thus the whiter skin, blacker eyes, and enormous strength.

Maybe you're right. Some of this stuff was already discussed after Prometheus (Annunaki vs Iggigi, war of the gods, creation of men to do the work of the Igiggi etc.). Sounds reasonable. More so since Prometheus (=Lucifer/Satan) indicated, that there is a tension between two fractions: Zeus vs Prometheus or God vs Luciter/Satan. I hope that he will give the Engineers back some of their majestic appearance - which they lost in my mind in AC (being killed of like that without any form of defense was dissapointing to me).

However this might be a good opportunity: you said again and again, that RS stated the Planet 4 Engineers were the Originals. Please show me the source. I've googled it and this Comment by RS was nowhere to be found! This seems like one of the most crucial comments regarding the Engineer-backstory so please show me where he said that. I'd like to find out more.

Well, David and Shaw must have had a quick look at the wreckage site (They wouldn’t go to Miss Vicker’s lifeboat. Shaw knows what’s there) on their way to the other facility and the juggernaut there.

Yes, at present, W-Y knows about LV-223, Planet 4, and Origae-6. These would, therefore, have to be wiped out. Otherwise, there would be no point in going to LV-426 in search of a xenomorph.

Yes, David becoming the Space Jockey would be unsatisfactory, to say the least . . .

And I can’t see Engineers continuing David’s work since to me it seems they left that path a long time ago: “they tried to banish the wolf. And undo their creation”. For what they had done, they thought that “sacrifice cleansed them of their sin”.

Certainly we dont know 100% what Transpired between Prometheus and the Crossing.  It certainly looks like a number of Items had been Salvaged from either the Prometheus Wreckage or the Life-Boat before Dr Shaw and David had departed LV-223, so David could have gone back we simply dont know.

LV-223, Planet 4 and Origae-6 offer some Conflicts with the ALIEN Franchise at Present... after David sends the Advent Message you have to think the Company would Investigate at least TWO of those Places.

LV-223 and Planet 4 have Experiments, Black Goo and Organisms related to the Deacon, Neomorph and Xenomorph and so we have to ask WHY does the Company only Pursue LV-426 and then Ripley in the ALIEN Franchise?

So its likely these places would be DESTROYED or of NO USE to the Company by the Time we arrive after the events of ALIEN at least.

Considering the Plot of Alien Covenant and what Ridley Scott says about the Engineers will return and how we have YET to have the Space Jockey/Derelict event, then we have to WONDER what becomes of the Engineers after the events of the Prequels that are YET to unfold.

I will add in Context to the Events Connected to the Eggs... that a lot of Fans are NOT pleased with the David as Creator Plot, i think Best Case Scenario for them is some Indication in a Future Movie that SHOWS that the Eggs had been on LV-426 for a LONG LONG Time.. (Prior to Prometheus).  A Number of people would actually rather see a Reboot of the Prequels to De-Canon Prometheus and Alien Covenant... i cant see that happening.

A Worse Case Scenario for some Fans... Definite Proof that David's Eggs get on the Derelict and WORSE!  That David becomes the Space Jockey.  I feel this Scenario is actually more possible than a Indication that the Derelict and Eggs are a Ancient Event.  Because it would fit with the THEMES at play in the Prequels and would either show David's Hubris or his Redemption.

I think we need to look at a Scenario thats Middle Ground that places David as a Middle Man, and that the Experiments with and Evolution of his Creation at the hands of the Engineers proves to be THEIR Hubris.

So our Space Jockey is a Engineer or some Related Species..... the Destruction of LV-223 could be used as a Plot Device to Tear a Hole in Space/Time that sends the Derelict back Thousands of Years.

(but this could also cause a Paradox)

Once again i have to thank SPAM for Bumping a Topic i missed.

I think Certainly there is Potential to have a Sequel to ALIEN, and one that does-not contradict ALIENS.  With the Prequel Route of ALIEN Covenant which appears to Indicate that as of 17.5 Years prior to ALIEN the Derelict and Egg Cargo will NOT have been on LV-426.  We dont know HOW the Prequels would End...

But it appears that as of the Year 2105 there is NO Crashed Ship on LV-426 that leaves under 18 Years for the event that leads to the Derelict to Transpire.

This Potentially means the Derelict could have only been on LV-426 for like 5-10 years prior to the Nostromo being re-routed to the Location, to carry out Special Order 937 it is possible HAD the Prequels concluded we would have some idea of what Triggered  had Special Order 937

How does this relate to a ALIEN Sequel....  well we have to Wonder about Special Order 937 and having issued this Order and the Failure to Carry it out in ALIEN, we have to ask would the Company just simply Give Up?

So we have always had to ASK.... how come between sending the Nostromo to LV-426 and the Set-Up of Hadleys Hope how come they Never Went Back?

The Plot of Alien Covenant and its Advent Viral Video would indicate the Company would know quite a bit about the Xenomorph and Eventually LV-426 in order to issue Special Order 937

This leaves a few Avenues to Explore but as we DONT know how the Prequels would conclude what happens to LV-223, Planet 4 and Origae-6 plus any other Worlds/Events that Transpire Connected to the Xenomorph and David.

There is ONE avenue that we know 100% what Transpired and that is we are left with the Derelict and Special Order 937 in the Year 2122

So when we come to ALIENS we see in the Extended Cut the Jordons are sent out to Investigate a Area of LV-426 and come across the Derelict.

We see the Jordan's appear to Enter from the Same Side that the Nostromo Crew had, only there is Damage to the Area the Jordan's pass through.  Its hard to make out HOW MUCH of the Derelict is Damaged but Certainly the ARM Section to the Left is INTACT..  the Scene is Foggy and so we cant see the FULL SHIP... but Certainly the Entrance Point appears Damaged in a way that would indicate the Damage is NOT on a Large Scale.  (Externally).

What can cause such a Hole, yet NOT effect the External Area or so it seems?

We could SPECULATE that some kind of EXPLOSION from inside could Cater for the Hole?

So this leaves it open to Wonder if another Mission had gone to LV-426 and gone to the Derelict and at the Climax a Explosion had Occurred from inside... maybe likely a Attempt to BLOW the Ship Up?

This Speculation does give us a Avenue to Explore such a Event in a ALIEN Sequel ;)   which likely means some kind of Cover-Up Conspiracy after.

Well, it’s possible, of course, that David went back to LV-223 when Shaw was in hypersleep but I see no reason for believing that he did. According to the movie he created everything in the lab (but not in the novel), eggs, hybrids etc.

Returning to LV-223 would be interesting indeed, seeing what's inside the other facilities. However, W-Y must know by now that there is something interesting on LV-223. Wouldn’t they go there rather than letting a star freighter check out a signal?

If everything is wiped out, Planet 4, Origae-6 (if they have been there) and LV-223, the Engineers can leave this part of the galaxy for good.

But there was one Engineer who left LV-223 2000 years ago . . .

@LONE

Having looked again at the Arcturian from  The Long Tomorrow i think its interesting to Ponder what Influences that James Cameron could have taken?

A Shape Shifting Species could be interesting, maybe a bit Complex!

How about a Species that may-not appear Visually Appeasing but Humanoid non the less.. who somehow have a Telepathic Link that can Effect the Minds of those they Interact with. 

By Curveball...

I think we are seeing a repeating Process of Sub-Creation.  That had not Started with the Engineers and maybe does-not End with David.

So by that i mean Revelations could come about that the Higher Level of Creation above the Engineers could come back to be via A.I or indeed a None-Biological Being/Race (Machine if you would).  Not David though lol

Or that maybe the Engineers (even Planet 4) are a Sub-Creation by another Ancient Ancestor of Mankind... meaning they CAME FROM US... or our Ancestors.

For example this is Interesting on the Earlier Concept work for the Cathedral Dome.... TWO Concepts by TWO different Artists.

Oh NO!  not that kind of Curveball!

In all Fairness you really cant rule out more Curve-balls that will UPSET the Fans!  The Space Jockey as David or one of his Creations?   Who knows what RS would have given us...  He had indicated that by the END of the Prequels we arrive at WHO is in the Chair on the Derelict and it was said in a way that seems to indicate he knows who is behind it, and we have seen them (one who Orchestrates it) and his comments could indicate its not as Obvious as a Engineer.

"the notion of Over-man has nothing to do with the body"

Indeed i think we can look at the Übermensch as not meaning Super-Human aka Human Enhancement as far as Physically/Genetically.  So we could look at it as in some other ways that Zarathustra covers.. In that the concept of having to have Gods and a Soul to counter our Meaningless Life...  if i recall right one Drafts or a Comment by someone working on Alien Covenant had indicated the Engineers got upset because we had invented the Notion of a Soul and a Route to Immortality/Afterlife.   so its interesting to look at the Nihilism connection... this is a Realization that Weyland had upon his Death "There is Nothing"

Maybe aspects of Nietzsche as far as his Works and Ideas could be applied to the PLOT?  I am not Expert on his Works, something i will have to do a bit more Research and reading into.

The context i mainly using in regards to Übermensch is the pursuit to Advance yourself, but indeed its interesting to consider this as not only a Genetic Evolution/Goal but a Spiritual/Philosophical one.

"But, in a flashback scene (2000 years back in time on LV-223) we see an Engineer running towards a juggernaut, sets off, but eventually crash lands on LV-426"

There are a number of ways we could go and indicate the Derelict and Cargo had been on LV-426 for Thousands of Years, without having to SHOW the Event.

A Movie that goes to LV-223 could indicate this for us, by Virtue of Exploring another Complex and either on a Ship or in some Room have some Engineer Storage Devices that contain Small Xenomorph Eggs and either IMPLY that these are Successful Results or Eggs that the Engineers had used to Experiment with.

Indicating these Eggs had been on LV-223 for Many Thousands of Years would give us some AMBIGUITY to Alien Covenant and allow the LV-426 Event to become a Mystery again... One that will NOT have a Answer but one where its left OPEN to those Eggs being there for a LONG LONG time.

Where Fans can Speculate if David had gone back to LV-223 to obtain one of those Eggs! Certainly gives David a good reason to have Dr Shaw placed into Cryo-sleep for a Journey that may-not have taken LONG but Dr Shaw does-not know that.

Certainly gives David more avenues to HOW he learned the Engineers Ways...

You could go Further by Spoon Feeding that indeed those Eggs had been on the Derelict, and that David had obtain them as such.

Problem is so much that counters that idea... David said his Creatures would be UNLEASHED on the Galaxy if Weyland-Yutani take up his Advent Message... but then we could Speculate this is regarding his VERSION.

If we got a Sequel that was more Alieny that went to LV-223, its a case of what do they then do with David and the Covenant and what happens to them?  Another Alieny movie about his Xenomorphs while giving Clues to the others...

Engineers rock up with the Original Xenomorphs vs Davids Cheap Knock Offs?

Some Fans would see this as a WET-DREAM... i think its quite different to what RS would have done...  But Disney will Call the Shots now and who knows..

I wont rule out a Ripley vs Engineers, vs Predators vs Aliens ;)

I think that to a degree yes the Neomorph is a By-Product of a A.I and maybe that does-not mean its a A.I.

The Xenomorph regardless if we look at the David Created it route, or the only other Evidence in the Franchise that covers the Origins a bit more (Alien Engineers).  Then the indication on Both Accounts is the Xenomorph is a Specifically Engineered Organism and so a kind of A.I

I think it depends on HOW you look at A.I as for the most part its associated with giving something a Artificial Intelligence as in allowing the creation of something that can THINK/PROCESS like a Human but Simulated and thus is connected with Computing/Programing and Software and not the Nuts and Bolts of the Machine, but what can make it become Intelligent and Function with Little or No Input from the Creator/User.

In this Context then the only way a Organic Life-Form can be considered A.I is if it has artificially been Modified/Engineered to have a Intelligence that is closer to a Human than what the Organism was Naturally.  

In this Context then Genetically Modifying a Apes Brain so that it becomes Vastly more Intelligent could be considered a A.I but it would be a more GREY area if we take a Human and Engineer some Ape Genomes/Traits to make the Human more Agile/Stronger because well if the Intelligence is the same as a None Ape Engineered Human then they would not be a A.I in this case.

It really is down to HOW you look at A.I for the most part it is Considered the attempt to Create a Artificial Brain or a Computer that can operate closely to a Brain.

Ridley Scott seems to suggest that David and Replicants are only different because mainly ONE is Synthetic and the other Organic... but both A.I as far as he is concerned. 

Regarding the connection to ALIEN...

This has been debated over and over, indeed the Original Idea was that the Xenomorph was NOT a Creation by David and the U-Turn/Curveball is something that in Hindsight may have been a Bad Call!

so its a case of do we ACCEPT this.... do those who will eventually give us the Answers Accept it, despite the Dislike by most Fans?

Or do we try and think of a way to Fix It?

The theory i put forwards makes sense to me, i understand it may not for others... it works for me because of the Themes at Play, Genetic Engineering. If we look at Genetic Engineering and Enhancing and look at WHY would anyone do this... usually you would find its to Enhance/Improve and Perfect something to Speed Up/Cheat Evolution.  I think the whole Space Gardeners and Engineers plot does show us a Species who go around Engineering Various Organisms.

Then if we look at the Experiments on LV-223 we could assume the Engineers had been experimenting with a all manner of related Organisms, trying to Perfect Something just as David was doing on Planet 4.

If we assume this was the case with some Engineers, then if they look at the Deacon they created, and then they saw what David had achieved with the Black Goo, they could be INTERESTED in what he has done and seen Great Potential in this.   So they decide to Evolve it Further.

I think that would Work/Fit for some it means that David still had a role in the Xenomorph and they Clutch at Straws that its still a Ancient Organism thats on LV-426 for Thousands of Years.

Rightly so too, because thats what the Impression was, and the Original Intention..

The other FIX is they can come up with another way to show the Xenomorph was on LV-426 for Thousands of Years...   Then maybe they have to explain WHAT it was that David had done.  For this they maybe have to indicate to us WHY it is David had decided to and managed to Create Something Similar?  Where did he get the Eggs or was he just Following a OLD Recipe Book to Re-create the Xenomorph?

Some Fans use Evidence from the Novel to back this up, but alas it appears those are LINES that ADF had added. We could go this route.... but i think its SILLY to have the Engineers keeping something like  a Egg on Planet 4, more so to then USE them to Sacrifice Engineers/Humans on Planet 4 (as some Speculate).

A way to FIX it if we go for this route has to be via David and some dialog where he says he had taken the Engineers Xenomorph and Perfected it... which then means we have to be shown that David's version is a Improvement but this would NOT please Fans either.

How David managed to Perfect it as far as from what source can be left Unanswered and Ambiguous.